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SKS S5 E7 "Luella"

[Music: Theme]

DR: Maybe you want to sit next to your dad, and your dad can have this on his lap?

DR: It's a photo album. It’s a pretty heavy one.

8:33.000

JIM BROWN

We'll get started at the front here. That's an old album.

TB: Who's in the picture? Just friends?

DR: We’ve sat down to look at some grainy one-use camera photos from the party on October 16th 1986. I got them from Doug Krokucz, who had to dig them out of storage. Six photo remainders of the night Kerrie disappeared that have never been published, and that Jim and Trevor have never seen.

TB: I'm going to grab my magnifier, Dave. Hang on.

DR: Looks like everybody's having a good time.

JB: Yeah, it looks like her little pantsuit underneath there.

JB: No.

TB: K.

TB: K. Same people, same outfits.

DR: I believe Kerrie is taking this particular shot. Everyone clowning for her at the camera. Nobody appearing upset or out of place. Kerrie's framing, her angle. What was going through her mind and the other’s in the room at the time?

DR: The photo album is closed. The pictures will never be unseen, and their effect shows plainly on Jim and Trevor's ashen faces.

DR: Adding to the feeling...in the ongoing attempt to replace the autopsy report the Browns originally received, but that Trevor then inadvertently lost, it’s just been learned that the RCMP has asked the medical examiner’s office not to release it to the Brown family again.

DR: Yeah, I wouldn't despair yet…

DR: So tell me what happened.

DR: Who did?

DR: What did she mean by maybe this will help you?

DR: And what did she tell you?

JB: I'll certainly get her name next time I bump into her uptown.

JB: I think she lives in town here actually.

[Sound: Dialing a phone]

[Sound: A phone tries to connect]

JB: Hello. Is that Luella? This is Mr. Brown. How are you doing? My friend is here, that I was telling you about. He wouldn't mind talking to you...if you didn't mind.

DR: I'm just going to see Luella, who I finally got in touch with via Jim Brown. I'm just pulling in on this building now...It looks like townhouses in a row.

DR: Hi there.

DR: How are you?

DR: Luella's wearing a pink and white print top and white pants, and she has shoulder length dark hair pinned up with a single clip.

L: Yeah, I did.

L: Because um... about the fourth time I talked to him, after I met him, he started telling me about his daughter, and he cried. And...

DR: What was the context of the conversation? Like what was the...

DR: Luella tells me what she heard Fred say in the Cree language.

L: He said um... "How about when we killed that white girl." And I thought white lady or girl. [Speaking: Cree] meaning white woman.

DR: Did you ever ask Fred about what he was talking about at that time?

DR: Now was he somebody that you knew, have known your whole life, Fred?

DR: Oh, I'm sorry.

DR: Last year? Oh, I'm sorry about that.

DR: So tell me about Fred. What kind of a person is Fred?

DR: He definitely said, 'when we killed the white girl'?

DR: So how old is Fred now?

DR: 54? Okay. Was anyone else present at that conversation?

DR: Okay. I know that Jim Brown is very thankful that you came and told him this. I mean we don't know what it means or if it means anything.

DR: At the time all this was playing out, Luella and Fred Spence were living in Nelson House, an Indigenous community about an hour west of Thompson. Nelson House, not to be confused with Norway House, the community I visited to learn more about Helen Betty Osborne.

L: Eighteen years.

L: I don't know? I've never talked to Fred since my son was born. So I don't know. I don't know anything about Fred.

L: Well, he was abusive to his ex-girlfriend, and he did that to me too.

L:I have no idea.

L: Nope.

L: That was the first time I ever mentioned it, when I mentioned it to Mr. Brown.

L: Well, yeah, you can put my name, sure. Because it was me that said it, and I know what I heard. [Speaking: Cree] "When we killed that white girl..." I wish I could go to Nelson House and ask him questions. But I don't have a vehicle.

L: Really?

L: I don't know. I don't know how he would react to it though.

L: Okay.

[Sound: Car door opens and shuts]

[Sound: Car ignition turns over] DR: And police have never spoken to her before. So I'll try to figure out what to do at Nelson House.

TB: In person.

TB: In Cree...

DR: And she stood up and said what she knew. That most respect I can ever give anybody is that they tell me what they know.

DR: I'm just heading out to Nelson House. Just on my own here. It's a bouncy road. Pretty much going due West at this point. Going to try to talk to Fred Spence. All you can do is ask. And see what the answers are. But...I hope one way or another there's an answer here.

DR: Carole...actually has, from time to time, Fred Spence do work for her at her house. And today is one of those days.

[Sound: DR’s phone rings]

CAROLE KOBLISKI: Hi.

CK: Good.

CK: Okay, I'll be there right away.

[Sound: Phone disconnects]

CK: Hi! Just follow me.

DR: Carol arrives at our rendezvous point, and guides me along some gravel roads to her house at the end of one of them. There's a collection of boats, ATVs, and other vehicles around the property, and two men working on a massive black boat motor wave as I walk up to Carol, who's waiting beside her new looking extended cab truck. There's a logo on the door that says, "First Nation Safety Officer". In Manitoba, Community Safety Officers are responsible for crime prevention and enforcing band bylaws, working closely alongside the RCMP. Carol's not on duty though, and is wearing denim capri pants and a light white tank top, and has highlighted short brown hair.

DR: Um... we might as well go get him. Can I truck this stuff into your house?

DR: This recording stuff.

DR: Okay.

CK: Okay. We have to wait, till 6 o'clock.

CK: His boss doesn't let him go until 6.

DR: What does somebody like Fred Spence do with his time? What's his life like here?

DR: Ever made any trouble that you know of?

DR: Want to go for a little tour then?

DR: We move our discussion into Carole's truck, and start the driving tour. The roads are washboard rough at times causing vibrations in the recording. We pass an opening in the trees that looks out onto a pristine looking lake and then continue toward a group of houses.

DR: Doesn't Fred Spence live around here?

DR: Oh, ok.

DR: We pass rows of houses, some look newer, while others look in disrepair. But all look occupied.

CK: 10. 15 to a house. There's an overcrowding. And it's happening all over.

CK: We have one baseball field.

CK: The other field there's contaminated.

CK: Sewage. Underneath. So they can't use that field.

CK: This is the nursing station. It's too small, and there's not enough rooms in there. Especially with what's going on in our community. This is what you call uptown.

CK: This is uptown. That's the band office.

CK: Yep...

DR: We pass an empty lot where there’s a foundation remaining.

DR: What happened to it?

DR: So the Northern Store's done.

DR: Somebody burnt it down.

CK: Yeah. The walls are so soft, you can go like this, and the walls move, in there. And then you have the gangs putting their name on the houses. This one says Westside and then you have some on the Eastside.

CK: Oh yeah. Lots. MOB. NS. You name it.

CK: Yep. Yep. And they're territorial.

CK: See, people walk around with uh golf sticks, hockey sticks and it's a way of protecting themselves because it's so unsafe to walk around in the community. That's what they do. The young people they walk around, trying to protect themselves. It wasn't like that, it was very... it was a safe community. People didn't have to lock their doors, people were always visiting each other. You could go anywhere and have a cup of coffee, a cup of tea, whatever. Bannock... But now it's all like... trying to survive for yourself.

CK: Okay. I'll go pick him up.

DR: To pick up Fred Spence. I sit in Carole's living room on a sectional leather couch with my recorder running, waiting for their arrival. There's a small aquarium nearby, and the marine blue walls are decorated with stain glass, a large blue model of a ship, and various porcelain angels. And then...

DR: Oh, hi.

DR: Fred, hi, how are you?

DR: I'm David. Nice to see you. Have a seat here.

FS: A triplet. Yeah.

FS: Well, there's another set. All boys.

FS: Belinda's.

DR: Ah, okay! Okay. And you just turned 50?

DR: And when's your birthday then?

FS: Yeah. Not volunteering.

FS: I go out like... make some money.

FS: Every summer.

FS: I get paid, yeah.

CK: You're only allowed 15 minutes. If he's not back in 15 minutes he's fired. [LAUGHTER]

FS: No.

FS: White girl?

FS: I never said that.

FS: No. Not even...

FS: I don't even remember talking to anybody like that.

FS: No. I'd never say that to anybody.

CK: No. As if. [LAUGHTER] No, no.

DR: You don't know anything about the Brown case? Kerrie Ann Brown?

DR: No? So the conversation to you, you don't remember it at all.

DR: Okay. I know it's a weird question, but I had to ask, you know? Someone tells me that, and I have to ask. Here, I'll show you a picture of this girl. Kerrie Ann. I'll show you a picture of Kerrie Ann here.

DR: Yeah, just to sort of, maybe you've seen the...

DR: Here she is.... that's Kerrie Ann there.

CK: How old was she?

FS: Is that the same one?

FS: Hmm.

FS: I seen it on a bulletin board.

FS: That picture.

FS: Yeah. Missing. Says ‘missing’.

FS: No.

DR: They did...individuals that had contact with her, so she was... anyway, they had contact with her.

DR: And they had one individual… they pulled in, they had a prelim for him. And it was thrown out. Yeah. Not enough evidence.

DR: That fellow was from Thompson. Yeah?

DR: That was 30 years ago, 31 years ago so that was... 1986 in October.

DR: Yeah, so you would've been like... 20?

CK: Yeah, you must've been about 19 / 20.

FS: No. Don't even have a driver's' licence.

FS: Never got it.

[LAUGHTER]

DR: Oh really? So you're always driven by someone else? Okay. Well, I don't have any other questions, I was just wondering whether you remembered that conversation and what the nature of it was. If can remember what that utterance meant.

DR: When we, WE, killed that white girl, or white lady. And there was no other context given. Like the person never asked you about it afterwards. So it may be that the person's mistaken... maybe misheard.

DR: If I get any more information about it, I'll let you know. You've got my card there, you can call me.

DR: Yeah. Has anyone ever asked you about this before? Has anyone ever talked to you about this case before?

DR: Do you have a contact number or email that I can...

FS: Yeah.

DR: Thanks very much. It was nice to meet you.

DR: And thanks for helping.

DR: I'll be here Carol.

CK: And I know that when you're drunk, if you've got something hidden, it comes out. Look at the guy, Betty Osborne there. Look at what happened there. The guy was...became an alcoholic, and he ended up... telling another person, right?

CK: Yeah but. Take it slow…

CK: With him. I tried to talk with him more when... as we're going. And I just said to him, so you don't remember anything? You don't remember this girl? And he says, No I don't. I don't even know who she is.

CK: I know he did. I saw it too.

CK: A lot of body language. Yep, yep.

CK: Well, right away, of course, they're going to get defensive. Nobody wants to admit to murder. And then especially after 30 years. Like he, when we were driving, what did he say? That's 30 years ago? I said really…’cause I'm playing dumb too...but… yeah, I saw that he was getting agitated there. I'm surprised he didn't get up and walk out. But I think it was because I was here with him. I just told him, when we got into the house, that there was someone here to talk to him. But when you think about it, you know what, maybe that's what's been bothering him all this time. Because he's been drinking all his life. He just said, don't say anything to anybody about this. I’m like okay, I won't. Yeah, so I said don't worry about it. I won't say anything. If you remember anything, you know where I live. Or call me. Yeah. I was watching him too so... I know something's there. From my training, eh? That's what we pick up. Even at our truck stop, we've got to pick up the signs, right? And that's how we know when there's something in the vehicle. People start getting a little nervous, and they start talking too much to you, or they try to be a little too friendly to you. So that's when I go, everybody out. So, sure enough, it's there. ‘Cause on the way he says, I wonder who blamed me. He said also. He said I wonder who threw my name out there. I said I don't know. So you've got him thinking anyways.

DR: He was pretty... quick... like , I found him credible. But I didn't find his body language credible.

[Sound: Finger snap]

CK: comes up real quick.

CK: No. You can tell. When he started fidgeting.

CK: Yeah, yeah.

CK: Yeah because if I was out there, he would've walked away from you. He would've walked out.

DR: I'd like to follow up with Luella after talking to Fred yesterday up in Nelson House. I'm not totally convinced he may know anything. But he may. I do believe that Luella heard this phrase, and Carol said that Luella wouldn't be making it up. I agree.

L: Sorry if you tried to text, I didn't charge my phone again.

DR: So, thanks for doing this. I went to Nelson House yesterday. I didn't want to take you up on the first trip to see uh Fred. Because...I don't know if it would've been dangerous but...

DR: See, I didn't mention you, I didn't mention your name. I just said that a person told me that they had a disturbing conversation with you about 17 years ago, do you remember anything about that? And he said, "No." He said I don't remember saying that.

DR: I didn't do that. He seemed a little bit agitated, I mean, I think I would be agitated if someone was asking me if I killed somebody

DR: Um... but he denied, denied it basically.

DR: Well...certainly, I would be willing to take you there. Do you think that's a memory that somebody would...

DR: And he said he's never had a driver's licence or a car.

DR: Do you think it would be something that he could bury? And just not, and for... and force himself to forget? Do you think that that's some...

L: It will haunt them forever, like the way he drinks, I'm pretty sure that's why he drinks so much. To hide it. I mean. Whatever.

L: Maybe he does. I don't know. I know he said that. I know what I heard.

L: I doubt it.

L: Maybe he does because, I don't know. I don't know who else he told that to, but I know he blurted it out to me. He did have a vehicle back then. A little car. A little red car, I think it was a red car. Didn't have it very long though.

L: Yep. I didn't ask him if he had a licence, but I know he had a car.

L: Yeah. He did have a car.

DR: So, I plan with Luella to go to Nelson House, and on the day of departure, Trevor decides to come along for the ride.

TB: Yeah. I was looking for the ravens.

DR: Luella's waiting for us in her driveway.

L: Hi.

TB: Hi, Luella.

DR: So you sure you want to go do this?

DR: It's up to you really if you want to go...see Fred and ask him this yourself.

DR: Alright. Well we can go. I think I'm satisfied that you want to do it. And I'll try to make it as safe as possible. You know people in the reserve, right?

DR: So you have everything? You're ready to go now. You want to get anything else? Or...

DR: Okay. Here's some water here if you want. It's for you.

DR: How you doing back there Trevor?

DR: Feel good. Don't feel sea sick back there?

DR: So we're just outside Nelson House now. What do you want to go to? What...are we...what's the strategy here?

DR: Okay.

TB: Nice.

DR: Oh, straight. Sorry. I guess if you see him, you can just get them to come over to the car. It might be even the better way to do it if we roll the window down and just talk to him that way.

DR: On my side. Yeah. So let's do that. I won't...I won't open the door there. Or the window on your side.

L: This was my house here. I liked this area because the school is there. I wish I could just burn that house before I left. [chuckle] Light it up and leave.

L: Look. I think that's him right there.

L: Yeah. He's in the doorway. Yeah, that is him. Looks like he's drinking coffee.

L: Yeah.

DR: Do you want me just to stop and get him to come over?

DR: Right here?

DR: Stop here?

DR: Okay. Do you want me just to sit here or do you want me to get out?

L: Yeah. Call him over. [VERY QUIET]

FRIEND OF FRED: Good.

FRIEND OF FRED: Fred?

FRIEND OF FRED: Yeah. Standing right there.

FRIEND OF FRED: Yeah.

FS: Good.

FS: Luella.

FS: Yeah.

FS: No no. I’d never say that. No.

FS: I’d never say that.

FS: Her. She's my worst nightmare. I couldn't get along with her, right.

FS: I never say that.

FS: I’d never say that.

FS: Well, I’d never say that I said.

FS: I never said that.

FS: Oh, we broke up long time ago, right?

DR: We seem to have reached an impasse with each side remembering their own version. It was about 17 years ago, and Luella says they had been drinking. She’s also the only person so far I’ve heard this story from so, it’s difficult to go further.

FS: No.

FS: No.

FS: No.

DR: Hurting any white woman or...

L: I wouldn't say anything for nothing, either.

DR: Well let's...let's call it then I think. Are you okay if we go? Okay. Thanks.

DR: Thank you.

DR: Okay. I think it's better we go. How the hell do I get out of here now? Well, it's kind of a stalemate. He says he didn't say it. You say you heard him say it...he seems to be convinced he never said it. So it's hard to know. Well, it's sitting with him now.

DR: For sure. Just tell me where it is.

DR: We pull up beside a paint peeled wooden church that looks like it was built many years ago. Beside it, along a poorly maintained dirt road, a graveyard of wooden crosses and plots — some of them fenced in and covered in the personal belongings of their occupants. Luella turns to the spot where her and Fred’s son was recently laid to rest.

DR: These all the hats he used to wear?...New York Yankees.

L: His name was Rodrick.

TB: Wow.

DR: Thanks very much again... and for your courage and ...

DR: Maybe something will come of it...

TB: Yeah. You take care Luella. We'll talk to you soon dear.

TB: Be safe dear. Thanks again for everything, alright. Alright. We'll talk to you soon.

TB: Bye.

DR: Trevor and I return to Thompson to talk about what happened with Jim.

JB: Mhm. Yeah.

JB: Oh yeah.

ATW: You have been listening to Episode 7: Luella. Visit: www.cbc.ca/sks to see previously unreleased photos of Kerrie and her friends the night she disappeared. Want a place to discuss episodes with others, and discover exclusive conent? Join our new Facebook group, and follow us on Twitter: @skscbc. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen. The series is mixed by Cesil Fernandes and produced by Chris Oke, Steph Kampf, Amil Delic, Eunice Kim and executive producer Arif Noorani. Original music by David Federman. Our theme song is “Thompson Girl” by The Tragically Hip.

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TRANSCRIPT: Someone Knows Something- Season 5, EP 7

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