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The AIH Transcript for March 27, 2019

Hosts: Megan Williams and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Hello, I'm Megan Williams.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight...

MW: A captive twice over. She survived five years as a hostage in Afghanistan with Joshua Boyle -- and now Caitlin Coleman is sharing disturbing testimony about her husband at his criminal trial.

JD: A recurring nightmare. Bekah D'Aoust felt some relief when the man who sexually assaulted her was sentenced, but now he has appealed yet again -- still claiming it was a case of sexsomnia.

MW: Medical emergency. After eight people are killed at a rural hospital in Yemen, the NGO Save the Children raises serious concerns about how people there will get lifesaving health care.

JD: Rapid AI movement. A Canadian researcher wins the biggest award in computing for his pioneering work in training machines to think more like people do.

MW: The toaster of the town. The Beat was one of the most versatile bands in the British ska movement -- and the late Ranking Roger was the vital element linking Jamaican tradition to its post-punk energy.

JD: And...house of curds. A Canadian artist is building his own wall on the border between the U.S. and Mexico -- a wall of old cheese, which he believes will send a strong or at least a strong-smelling message. As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio that thinks this is kind of a worse queso scenario.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Patients have 'nowhere to go' after airstrike destroys rural hospital in Yemen

Boyle trial

Guest: Andrew Duffy

JD: Today, Caitlin Coleman broke her silence about her marriage today. In a courtroom in Ottawa, she began testifying against her estranged husband, Joshua Boyle. He stands accused of physically and sexually abusing her. Most Canadians know them as the couple who were held hostage for years by the Taliban. They had three children while in captivity. They were finally able to return to Canada in the fall of 2017. A few months later Mr. Boyle was charged with multiple assault related crimes. Ms. Coleman who asked the court to make her name public spoke at the trial today about her relationship with Mr. Boyle. Andrew Duffy is covering the story for The Ottawa Citizen. We reached him in Ottawa.

MW: Andrew how did Ms. Coleman describe her relationship with Joshua Boyle?

ANDREW DUFFY: Well it was complicated. They started dating back in 2006 online. They met in a forum for Star Wars fans. And they didn't meet each other for four years. And when they first met, Caitlin fell in love with him quite quickly. He was actually the first man that she had ever kissed. And then they had a rollercoaster relationship -- and were married in 2012, and went to Afghanistan that same year.

MW: And what did she say about the kind of abuse she suffered and when it started?

AD: The abuse really started in Afghanistan. She said the physical abuse started the last two years of their captivity -- and it took a number of forms. She was spanked -- she said it was this form of physical chastisement. She was slapped. She was punched. She was choked during bouts of anger. And she said that that physical abuse continued after they came back to Ottawa.

MW: Uninterrupted?

AD: Well there were brief points of interruption. I mean when she came back to Ottawa she said the first month was relatively peaceful.

MW: And then he went back to abusing her?

AD: Well we haven't got the full story on that yet. She was just describing the very initial case of the abuse when court rose today. So on November 5th she said they were in a fight -- they often have these verbal altercations -- and on this occasion she says Boyle demanded that she go to the shower stall of the hotel they were staying at and stand naked in the shower, so she does this. And he comes into the shower stall and tells her that he wants her to take these three pills -- they were anti-depression medication that I believe he was taking. She refused to do that. He leaves. She throws the pills down the sink. He comes back. She admits that she throws the pills down the sink and he -- according to Coleman -- hits her across the face several times. And that's the first instance of abuse that we've heard about on Canadian soil. And that's where we're going to pick up testimony tomorrow.

MW: Okay. And she gave this testimony today by closed circuit television, is that right?

AD: Yeah that's right. She was sitting in a separate room with the Crown attorney and Boyle's lawyer -- and apparently she did not want to be in the same court room as Boyle. And she has the right to do that as a spousal abuse victim.

MW: Now Mr. Boyle has pleaded not guilty to the 19 charges he faces. 17 (charges) of them concern Ms. Coleman and the other alleged victim (who) has not been named. How important is the testimony Ms. Coleman will gave over the next few days?

AD: Well Ms. Coleman really is the key-crucial witness of this trial. And the defence has already made it very clear that they intend to test her evidence and test her reliability. And that really is what this trial is going to turn on.

MW: Now Ms. Coleman's testimony isn't the only evidence that's been offered so far. Yesterday the court heard a 911 call made by Mr. Boyle -- (at) the night of his arrest -- and from a police officer who responded to that call. What did you learn from that?

AD: Well Mr. Boyle reported that his wife was missing and suicidal. And what quickly became apparent to the officer who responded to that call was that she was not suicidal -- she was in fact sitting in her mother's hotel room in downtown Ottawa and seemed quite composed when the officer met her. And the focus of that officer's investigation very quickly changed from a missing-suicidal person investigation into one of spousal abuse.

MW: And the officer seemed to make that shift?

AD: The officer made that shift quite quickly, and that will in fact be one of the things that the defense is going to challenge in this case because they believe that the police developed this [inaudible] too quickly in this case and jumped to the conclusion that Mr. Boyle was an abuser.

MW: Now this has been such a high profile case. I mean the family was all over the media when they returned from captivity. And they were even photographed with the prime minister. So you know it's not a case that's easy to ignore. Does it feel uncomfortable for you to cover this because this story is so personal and it involves a family and children?

AD: Well I mean it certainly is uncomfortable sometimes sitting in court because you know they have gone over their relationship in such fine detail you sometimes feel like you're listening in on something you shouldn't be hearing. And you know how this story ends, so there's a certain element of tragedy that kind of hangs over the whole thing.

MW: You know how the story ends, in what way?

AD: Well you know that this is where this family ends up -- this family ends up in court.

MW: Right. And of course they had survived a terrible ordeal that lasted five years as well.

AD: Yeah exactly.

MW: This is day one of her testimony. So do you think we can expect more details about the alleged abuse to come out?

AD: Yes. The court sits again on Friday, so certainly more details will come out about the nature of the crimes that are alleged to have happened on Canadian soil.

MW: Now you mentioned part of what you think Mr. Boyle's defense will be. Do you have a larger sense of the tactics he might take in defending himself?

AD: No. We don't have a really great sense of that yet. I mean I think what the defense has made clear is that they are going to challenge every element of Ms. Coleman's testimony. And the Crown has already tried to establish that domestic assault victims -- people who have suffered and survived trauma -- don't always remember things in a linear fashion and that they sometimes have fragmentary memories. And that's really what I think the Crown is trying to prepare the court for is that kind of testimony.

MW: Okay. Thanks so much for speaking with me Andrew.

AD: Okay. You bet.

MW: Take care.

JD: Andrew Duffy is a reporter for The Ottawa Citizen. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music]

Yemen hospital bombing

Guest: Jason Lee

JD: It was a typical busy morning at the Kitaf rural hospital in northwestern Yemen yesterday. Then an explosion hit. According to the NGO Save the Children, that explosion was caused by a missile that landed nearby. When the dust cleared, eight people were left dead -- including five children. Jason Lee is Save the Children's Director of Programme Operations in Yemen. We reached him in the country's capital, Sanaa.

MW: Jason can you tell us what you've learned about the missile strike yesterday?

JASON LEE: So what we know so far is that there was a missile strike roughly about 9:30 in the morning that hit a petrol station just outside Kitaf hospital in Saada district. And the missile struck about 50 metres away from the main hospital building.

MW: Now can you describe the facility and what would have been going on there when this happened?

JL: Yeah so the facility is a rural hospital and it serves a population of about 5000 people. Being 9:30 in the morning -- the hospital opens at 9 o'clock -- and it's in a crowded market place as well, so there are lots of people milling around, lots of civilians going to the hospital, lots of families, parents taking their children to the hospital.

MW: So what kind of damage took place when the missile hit?

JL: Well the missile completely destroyed some structures in front of the hospital. Now because of the close proximity of the missile which is 50 metres away -- when you think about it, it's really nothing when you're talking about a bomb that's being dropped. So again, we have the buildings being destroyed, all the windows, and doors have been blown up. A lot of the civilians that were in the yard making their way to the hospital, unfortunately we've got five children that have been killed including three adults and eight injured. And we still have two people that are unaccounted for.

MW: Now you mentioned the people who died. Do you know anything more about them?

JL: So unfortunately we know that one health worker was killed. Then again the children -- all of them were boys: a 14-year-old, two 12-year-olds, a 10-year-old, and the youngest was an 8-year-old. Now two of those children were actually the children of the health worker that was killed as well.

MW: Now this is a hospital in a rural area of the country. Can you tell me what kind of work has been going on there and how important it is to the area?

JL: So with Save the Children we have been supporting this hospital. And it provides very much needed primary healthcare, also maternal and child health. And in the context of Yemen where we've got malnutrition rates which are astronomical, it actually has a treatment facility as well for malnourished children.

MW: So what kind of impact will it have on the area (due to) the fact that it's been bombed now?

JL: Well unfortunately the hospital is closed I mean for a variety of reasons. One being that the damaged that the hospital self-sustained. The second being the fact that the healthcare workers and the community members are too scared to go to the hospital because they fear there might be another strike. With this hospital closed, there really is no healthcare that's available for the community members. So lots of pregnant women, mothers that need to deliver, don't have a safe space. The children that are being treated for malnutrition don't have anywhere to go. And even basic primary healthcare -- these community members have no ability to access healthcare. The closest health facility that they can access is in Saada city which is about 60 kilometres away -- which is a very long distance to travel particularly in an emergency.

MW: As you mentioned the missile didn't hit the hospital directly, it hit a gas station in front of it. So what does that lead you to conclude in terms of the hospital being a target or not?

JL: So irrespective of whether the hospital was a target -- under international humanitarian law it is incumbent upon the parties of the conflict, in this case the Coalition, to make sure that first and foremost no civilian infrastructure is damaged -- and the second is that to minimize any potential civilian casualties. By no stretch of the imagination can we say that having alleged missile 50 metres from the main entrance of a hospital is reasonable measures especially at 9:30 in the morning when there's lots of civilians about -- there's a crowded marketplace nearby, there's the fact that most civilians are going to the hospital then because the hospital opens at 9:00. So it's a very busy period of the morning.

MW: Do you believe the Saudi led coalition was responsible for the bombing?

JL: I can't say definitively. What we do know though is that during the time of the attack there were many planes flying overhead which eyewitness accounts said they heard. The airspace in Yemen is currently closed. And the only party to the conflict that has access to the air and the capabilities to launch an air strike is the coalition. This is why for Save the Children we are calling for an independent-credible investigation to actually find out what actually happened and for those who are responsible to be held accountable.

MW: And what does this mean for your efforts to deliver healthcare in this area of Yemen and all of Yemen really?

JL: The situation in Yemen is deteriorating. I mean we have the terrible case now where we've shown that one child in Yemen dies every 10 minutes from preventable illnesses and malnutrition. A lot of the collapse of the health system, the emergence of communicable diseases such as cholera and diphtheria is purely due to the conflict. The driver for all of the situations that we see is the conflict. With the destruction of this particular health facility as it is closed we are not able to provide medical care -- important medical care -- for the communities. We are now currently doing an assessment to work out the extent of the damage and if it can be repaired and how quickly, so that we can resume the services that were being provided by this hospital.

MW: Do you have any sense of how soon you'll be able to re-open the hospital?

JL: At the moment, no. Again, our first and foremost priority is to provide assistance to the victims and their families, and those that are injured. So for the eight civilians that have been injured, we're trying to ascertain what is the medical care that they require. And also for the families of the deceased to actually ensure that they are still able to continue surviving in a situation where there is very little employment, there is high rates of malnutrition, to make sure that these families are able to survive with the loss of their loved ones.

MW: Jason thanks so much for speaking with me today. And best of luck in getting the hospital back up and running.

JL: Thank you very much for your time.

JD: Jason Lee is Save the Children's Director of Programme Operations in the country of Yemen. We reached him in Sanaa. We have more on this story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Cheese wall

Guest: Cosimo Cavallaro

JD: Donald Trump has been yelling, "Build that wall" for years. And Cosimo Cavallaro was listening. On the weekend, the Montreal-born artist arrived at the border between the U.S. and Mexico. And now he spends his days building a wall -- brick by brick. Each brick made from old cheese. We reached Cosimo Cavallaro in Tecate, California.

MW: Mr. Cavallaro what does your cheese walls smell like in the hot sun?

COSIMO CAVALLARO: Love [laughs] and passion. If there's a scent of passion it is definitely cheese.

MW: Can you describe your wall of cheese for me?

CC: So these are blocks made out of Cotija cheese -- stacking like blocks so they are about 50 pounds. It's a beautiful wall. It feels like a loving wall, a welcoming wall. It's a smelly wall. I wouldn't call it a wailing wall but it's [laughs] definitely a wafting wall.

MW: So how tall are we talking and how long...

CC: The wall will be about six feet tall. And the reason why, I didn't want to make it more (because) it starts to become out of a human scale. So I don't want someone to look up at it -- but maybe just slightly to be able to look over it.

MW: You're the son of immigrants -- so you have an immigration experience. How important was that to this project?

CC: Extremely important because you never feel you belong anywhere. But that's the sense of reality too. The truth is we are all immigrants to this planet. We were coming here for a short visit and we want to believe we own it. This is probably the truest feeling that any human should have -- a sense of being an immigrant all the time.

MW: So why did you decide to build the wall of cheese now?

CC: Well I've been looking for a context. Once the president was elected and the talk about this wall was always everywhere. Wherever I would turn around, I would hear about this border wall. And I went down to visit the border wall. That's when it hit me. This is the context. This is the perfect context for what I'm saying. You know in my wall of cheese, you see the waste of food -- but in the other one you just don't see it because when you do look at it what you do see is ominous threats, you know there's this big wall that's stopping something.

MW: President Trump of course calls the border a crisis. How would you describe the mood down there amongst these two walls?

CC: There's some cracker in between my wall and his wall. Where we are it's a beautiful-peaceful place, and nothing going on on that side. But on the other side you hear dogs barking, roosters crowing, some music -- there's this whole life happening, literally skimming on the border. Whereas on the American side there's just vast terrain of nothing. But the image that's painted is that there is these bad people coming over, and there's just nothing. We're just sitting around. So every once in a while you see a border guard go by and you know thumbs up, keep on, you know nice place to picnic, great wall of cheese.

MW: Do you have any hope or expectation that Donald Trump supporters might be persuaded to see the actual wall in a different light?

CC: That would be great that if some consciousness happens. But one thing's for sure -- that children could look at it and have a chuckle and be marveled at the fact that there was a cheese wall once in the time of their life. And that may sink in and realize that if we're going to do something like building walls there should be walls that actually can't stand. You know build a wall for a day but no longer than that. You know it should be something that comes down -- breaks down.

MW: How will we know when your cheese wall is done?

CC: [Laughs] You know you set a goal on making this thousand feet long because it sounds right -- a quarter mile long because it sounds right -- but at the end of the day it's when you get to this place where one more block or one less block of cheese it doesn't take away or add. You know? So there's that sweet spot that you find that you get to.

MW: I don't know if that's the right word. But that sour spot maybe? [Laughter] In the end what are you going to do with it? Are you just going to walk away and let it dry?

CC: Right. So I want to be able to photograph it to see how it decomposes. So you know I don't know how it will break down -- I'd like to see that process. And then we'll see what happens. I don't know. A lot of the stuff that I do is I have to have the courage to watch the process. If you are aware of the theater of the absurd this is where I am at. You need this much to prove a point. I mean we're at this place in our time and I think it's beautiful that we can do this -- you know that we have to speak this loud.

MW: Does everybody get it -- who's watching you stack these huge blocks of cheese -- or do they think you're a nut?

CC: Well [laughs] a cheesy nut for sure. For me I am always thinking -- because I'm Italian -- I'm thinking everybody loves cheese. I mean the reason I'm drawn to cheese is because I as a kid would see my grandparents come over from Italy and open the suitcase in the kitchen and out came this piece of cheese that was wrapped around clothes you know. And that was like this reason why they came. And everybody knew that you'd take the luggage first to the kitchen and then to the bedroom. We often used to cross the border with food. Our biggest fear was will they get the salami we are smuggling in -- will they catch us with the cheese that we're smuggling in you know. My mom had a great line once -- so the guy says well Ms. Cavallaro isn't this food? She says, no I haven't cooked it yet. [Laughter]

MW: Spoken like a true Italian.

CC: Exactly.

MW: Cosimo thank you very much for speaking with me today. And good luck with the rise and fall of your great wall of cheese.

CC: Thank you so much. That is so sweet. Thank you.

JD: Cosimo Cavallaro is a Canadian-born artist who now lives in California. He is -- as you heard -- building a wall of cheese along California's border with Mexico. We reached Mr. Cavallaro in Tecate, California. And you can see some photographs of that great wall of cheese on: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Time

JD: The times, they aren't a-changin'. Not in the EU, anymore, anyway -- because yesterday, the European Parliament voted decisively to do away with springing forward and falling back. Or, as they call it in Europe, summertime and wintertime. Right now, European Union countries move their clocks forward an hour on the last Sunday in March, and back an hour on the last Sunday in October. But as of 2021, no more pesky time changes. And yet the vote still makes room for national autonomy -- allowing member states to choose whether they'd prefer to be on permanent summertime or permanent wintertime. Now this will be an extremely welcome simplification. No more of that punishing biannual torment of clock adjustment which can take as long as a few seconds. And traveling around the EU will be a breeze! Simply memorize every country that picked permanent summer time and permanent winter time and then adjust your watch or phone every time you cross a new border which only takes a few seconds. Yes that's right. The plan is to let each of the 28 member states in the EU choose whether to permanently spring forward or fall back which means that the time could be different from country to country across the whole continent. And that doesn't even really take into account the UK which has said it will keep changing its clocks twice a year regardless. Oh EU. If this seems important to do right now -- go for it. We encourage you. It's just that whether daylight savings time or not at least all your countries are in sync right now. And you're about to give yourselves that de-syncing feeling.

[Music]

Part 2: Canadian researcher Geoffrey Hinton wins the biggest award in computing for his pioneering work in training machines to think more like people do

Sexsomnia appeal

Guest: Bekah D’Aoust

JD: "Today I am free." That is what Bekah D'Aoust said last week in Brockville, Ontario, after a man named Ryan Hartman was sentenced for sexually assaulting her eight years ago. The sentence followed two convictions and Mr. Hartman's subsequent and repeated appeals. Those appeals included a failed attempt to have the assault dismissed as "sexsomnia" -- meaning that Mr. Hartman contended that he was sleeping while he committed the crime. Now Ms. D'Aoust has learned that Mr. Hartman is seeking leave to appeal for a third time. And that he will be asking for bail as early as next week. We reached Bekah D'Aoust outside Ottawa.

MW: Ms. D'Aoust what was it like for you to realize that after two convictions and all those appeals, the men convicted of attacking you is once again asking a judge to set him free?

BEKAH D'AOUST: Very very frustrating. It's hard to -- I've been asked a couple times now -- and it's very hard to describe in one word. But generally, overall frustrated.

MW: This has been going on for so long now, what kind of a toll does it take on you?

BEKAH D'AOUST: Well it affects my life in every way. My husband and I were you know very much looking forward to things coming to a conclusion last week. So this -- it's very disrupting. It disrupts my life, my work life, it disrupts my relationships. It takes a very negative toll on my life. And I've tried over the years to try and make it a positive effect. And more recently I've tried to think more positively of how this has affected my life but overall it's a very large negative impact on my life.

MW: Are you able to not think about it?

BEKAH D'AOUST: Yeah I am. But I do spend a lot of time thinking. I run and I walk my dog so a lot of times you know it's hard not to because a lot of times I'm thinking about my life situations and you know relating to what has happened to me and how I've reacted to specific situations because of what's happened to me. So I do think of it a lot.

MW: Because of the assault or because of all of the legal entanglement after the assault?

BEKAH D'AOUST: So the assault, yes. But each time there was an appeal, it brings everything back up again. So the legal delays do bring me back to being assaulted -- and reliving everything all over again.

MW: Now today on Twitter you were asking for help if a lawyer might come forward to assist you. What kind of legal help have you been getting?

BEKAH D'AOUST: So it's been somewhat minimal. I've received a little more guidance recently because of the connections I've made from releasing my identity and reaching out to the media back in November. But it's difficult because I don't have a one-on-one relationship with the Crown attorney that's representing my case. Don't get me wrong, she's been incredible -- and when I've met with her in person she's been very helpful. But the way it works is there a liaison -- the Victim Witness Assistance Program -- they're the ones that contact me with any updates regarding my case. But other than that I am somewhat left in the dark.

MW: So you're looking for someone to give you some legal consultation on the side?

BEKAH D'AOUST: I have had someone -- a lawyer -- who has been helping me, giving me some information and better understanding of what's happening and what could happen. But I am ultimately looking to file a civil suit against Ryan Hartman.

MW: And is that because the criminal system has not worked for you?

BEKAH D'AOUST: Well it's worked for me in a sense. You know it has given me some form of justice, but I'm looking to find justice on my own terms -- in my own way.

MW: Who do you blame for allowing this case to drag on for so long?

BEKAH D'AOUST: Ryan Hartman.

MW: Just Ryan?

BEKAH D'AOUST: I can't blame a judge. I can't blame a current attorney. Our justice system flawed -- absolutely. But it's been flawed for many years and it is affected in many cases not just mine. I can't really point a finger at one person but Ryan because he's the one who keeps throwing up his hands and just not able to accept the fact that he's guilty and face consequences for what he's done.

MW: Now if you do decide to go ahead with a civil case how are you going to find the courage once again to offer evidence?

BEKAH D'AOUST: That's a good question. I haven't really put a lot of thought into it. You know I have testified twice. Over the years I've talked about things a lot more of the situation. And even in the last couple of months doing interviews with the media has you know I think prepared me for the next time I have to talk about it. I'm at a much more better place in my life now where I'm strong enough to really talk about things. You know it still does affect me and upset me -- and being questioned on what I say is true is challenging, but it's something I'm willing to take a chance and risk.

MW: Does it get any easier?

BEKAH D'AOUST: Yeah I think it does. Even the Crown attorney had said to me -- the last two times I've seen her -- she said she can't believe you know how far I've come since the first trial. I have grown a lot and you know come to terms with what's happened to me and learnt to cope. Haven't always coped in healthy ways. But I think I'm on the right track now, and it's definitely a lot easier. You know looking back now when I was first victimized -- the mental state I was in and the mental state I am in now, I've come a long way.

MW: Now a week ago when Ryan Hartman was sentenced you said, "Today I am free." What do those words mean to you now?

BEKAH D'AOUST: I'm still free. You know I called 911, I testified twice, I read my victim impact statement, I played my role and I did what I could to assist the Crown attorney in successfully filing charges and finding a conviction. So I'm free of that. Now with this appeal it does disrupt my sense of closure. Absolutely. But I am still free and you know in a way I believe that I have won you know not just for myself but for other victims.

MW: What would you say to other victims who are facing a similar situation?

BEKAH D'AOUST: To not give up and don't lose hope.

MW: Ms. D'Aoust thanks so much for speaking with me today. I really appreciate it.

BEKAH D'AOUST: Thank you for talking.

MW: Good luck.

BEKAH D'AOUST: Thanks.

JD: We reached Bekah D'Aoust outside Ottawa. The man who has been convicted twice for sexually assaulting her in 2011 has announced that he plans to launch yet another appeal.

[Music]

Turing award winner

Guest: Geoffrey Hinton

JD: The Turing Award is often called the "Nobel Prize of Computing." And today, for the first time in 30 years, it was awarded to Canadian researchers. Geoffrey Hinton of the University of Toronto, and Yoshua Bengio of the University of Montreal share the honour with Yann LeCun -- the head of artificial intelligence at Facebook. Mr. Hinton is a pioneer of something called deep learning. That is getting computers to learn. It is already at work in your phone -- and according to Mr. Hinton it could soon be everywhere. We reached Geoffrey Hinton in Toronto.

MW: Professor Hinton first of all congratulations. How did you get the news that you had won?

GEOFFREY HINTON: I got an email late at night saying, can I please get in touch with the guy who was chairman of the committee? So I figured out what that meant. So I got back to him, and he explained that Yoshua and Yann and I had won The Turing Award. And I was very excited.

MW: Well this is something that you've been working on for a very long time. Can you tell me about your work and what is deep learning?

GH: Okay. So normally the way you get a computer to do something is you write a program to do that thing. So you tell the computer exactly what to do in excruciating detail so it will perform the task you want -- and that is called programing. But there's now a new way of getting computers to do things. The first thing you do is is program into the computer a way of doing learning. And then for any particular thing you wanted to do you just show it examples. You show what the inputs look like, you show what the correct outputs are for those inputs. And to begin with, it gets it wrong. And you tell it that it got it wrong. And after awhile it starts getting it right. And that's now the way computers are trained to be able to do speech recognition or to be able to recognize objects and images or to be able to translate from one language to another. They don't put in lots of rules about how you should do translation -- they just show it examples of English sentences and the corresponding French sentences. Then it learns as you translate.

MW: Now this involved a major paradigm shift in thinking about learning -- applied to computers of course. And it was an area that was dismissed for a very long time. What does it mean to you and your colleagues to have finally been recognized with the top computing award in the world?

GH: It feels really good. This stuff is now respectable and it turns out we were right all along. Although the people who thought we were crazy, weren't entirely unjustified. What we believed was that you'd be able to take a network of simulated brain cells and learn complicated tasks just by learning how to change the strengths of the connections between these simulated brain cells. And everything will be done by learning. And that seemed crazy to most people. They thought there's no hope that you could for example feed it English sentences and hope that it would learn how to turn these sentences to corresponding French sentences that meant the same thing. And it turned out, it wasn't very good at that for a long time. In the end, computers got fast enough and the training sets got big enough that it really worked very well. For a long time it wasn't obvious that it was going to work. I always thought it had to work because the brain has to work somehow and the brain doesn't work by being programed.

MW: So where are we going to see this technology go in the near future?

GH: I'm tempted to say everywhere. Any time you have some data and you want to make a prediction from it -- if you go to a lot of data and the relationship between the inputs and outputs is complicated you need to use deep learning. So that would for example be: if you have data about earthquakes and you want to predict where the aftershocks will be -- deep learning can do a really good job of that. If you can see the blood vessels in the back of somebody's eyeballs in the retina which you can do non-invasively and you want to predict whether they're going to have a heart attack -- deep learning can do that. If you want to take an X-ray, and predict whether some little blob in the X-ray might be cancer -- deep learning can do that. There is huge numbers of different applications -- more every day.

MW: So amazing potential but also potential to replace doctors and perhaps many other professions. You know there's understandably a lot of anxiety about artificial intelligence leading to unemployment. Do you think that fear is justified?

GH: Well what I think is that it's going to greatly increase productivity in many many different industries. Now if you think about it, increasing productivity ought to allow everybody to be better off. It's not the question of the technology, it's a question of the political system. We need to live in a political system where when there's a big improvement in productivity everybody gets to benefit.

MW: Now that's not the only concern -- the concern of unemployment. There's no shortage of science fiction depictions of artificial intelligence going awry and you know killer machines taking over -- this kind of intelligence hurting human beings. How concerned are you about that?

GH: I think it's sensible that some philosophers are thinking about things like that. And I enjoy reading science fiction. But it's a long way off. And I also think that it's very very hard to predict the long term future. There's much more immediate concerns like autonomous weapons where we really do need legislation now to [inaudible] their use. Drones that can attack you -- that have vision -- they are scary things and the technology can make them [inaudible]. So they are not a question of science fiction.

MW: Now this award comes with hundreds of thousands of dollars. What will you be spending it on?

GH: There's a couple of things I want to do with some of the money. One is I'd like to fund the Humanities (studies) of the University of Toronto -- they get less money than the sciences. But I think the humanities are very important. The other is I'd like to fund an organization that creates jobs for autistic young adults.

MW: Why do you think it's important to fund arts as a scientist?

GH: Well the technology which we have to have it increases in productivity to make everything else possible. But then what we should do as a society -- and science doesn't really address that, science doesn't really address the issue of what we should be doing -- it addresses the issue of how to do things and how to get things to work. But it's the humanities that address the issue of you know what it is to be human and how should humans was interact with each other. And so I think it's crucial that we have plenty of funding to the humanities as well as to the sciences.

MW: Geoffrey Hinton it's been fascinating talking with you. Thank you so much.

GH: Thank you.

MW: And congratulations again.

GH: Thanks.

JD: Professor Geoffrey Hinton is an engineering fellow at Google, and a chief scientific advisor at the Vector Institute. Today, he and two other researchers won The Turing Award. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music]

Ranking Roger

JD: This is The Beat -- The English Beat, as they're known here on this side of the Atlantic -- with a song that encompasses the whole British ska scene. It starts as a cover of Prince Buster's 1968 song, "Whine & Grine" And then, midway, it becomes this one.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: The Beat's "Stand Down Margaret"]

JD: That's "Stand Down Margaret" which politely yet firmly asks then-Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher to resign. So that one song directly links music from Jamaica in the late '50s with the state of the UK in the early '80s. And you could dance to it. Ranking Roger -- singer and on-stage powerhouse for The Beat, and General Public -- died yesterday. He was 56 years old. Today, Jerry Dammers -- founder of the seminal ska label 2 Tone Records -- said, quote, "If one person had to be picked to epitomize everything that was good and positive about the British ska movement and its youthful spirit, I think it would have to be Roger." In a documentary produced by the website Noisey, Ranking Roger described the polyglot nature of The Beat's music.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: New-wave mixed with reggae -- mixed with soul. There was Calypso. There was pop. There was everything mixed into it. And we don't know what time it comes from. We all just kind of meld it together.

JD: Sadly like the ska movement itself, The Beat did not last long. After three albums and several hits, Ranking Roger and singer Dave Wakeling left to form General Public. And after that band ended, he worked on various projects before forming a new version of The Beat. It seemed like acknowledgment that he felt that early '80s ska scene had been a kind of alchemy. When an interviewer asked him what he thought the legacy of the movement had been he said quote, "I think we united a generation of kids, and taught them not to fight -- to try to get on no matter who you are."

[Music]

Green New Deal

JD: In Washington D.C. today, the Democrats were busy trying to turn the defeat of the Green New Deal into a victory over the Republicans in 2020. The proposal to invest in fighting both climate change and social inequality was defeated last night in the Senate after a handful of Democrats joined the Republican majority in voting against. One of the deal's chief proponents was the Democrats' rising star, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Here she is at committee earlier this week.

SOUNDCLIP

ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ: Beside from that -- when we talk about the concern of the environment as an elitist concern. One year ago I was waitressing in a taco shop in downtown Manhattan. I just got health insurance for the first time a month ago. This is not an elitist issue. This is a quality of life issue. You want to tell people that their concern and their desire for clean air and clean water is elitist. Tell that to the kids in the south Bronx which are suffering from the highest rates of childhood asthma in the country. Tell that to the families in Flint whose kids -- their blood is ascending in lead levels -- their brains are damaged for the rest of their lives. Call them elitist. You're telling them that those kids are trying to get on a plane to Davos. People are dying! They are dying! And the response across the other side of the aisle is to introduce an amendment five minutes before a hearing in a markup -- this is serious. This should not be a partisan issue. This is about our constituents and all of our lives. Iowa, Nebraska -- broad swaths of the Midwest are drowning right now, underwater. Farms, towns, that will never be recovered and never come back. And we're here. And people are more concerned about helping oil companies than helping their own families...I don't think so. I don't think so. This is about our lives. This is about American lives. And it should not be partisan. Science should not be partisan. We are facing a national crisis and if we do not ascend to that crisis, if we do not ascend to the levels in which we were threatened at the Great Depression when we were threatened in World War Two -- if we do not make ascend to those levels, if we tell the American public that we are more willing to invest and bail out big banks than we are willing to invest in our farmers and our urban families, then I don't know what we're here doing. I don't know what we're here doing.

JD: That was Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, speaking on Monday. And that all must have been a bit too earnest for Mike Lee. The Republican Senator illustrated his dismissal of the Green New Deal with pictures -- mostly of men astride unruly beasts. There was a velociraptor-riding Ronald Reagan, a tauntaun-riding Luke Skywalker, and Aquaman on a giant pink seahorse. Which brought the Senator to his own plan for saving the world.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE LEE: Climate change is no joke. But the Green New Deal is a joke. It is the legislative equivalent of Austin Powers' Dr. Evil demanding sharks with freaking lasers on their heads. The Green New Deal is not the solution to climate change. The solution to climate change won't be found in political posturing or virtue signalling like this. It won't be found in the federal government at all. You know where the solution can be found Mr. President? In churches, in wedding chapels, in maternity wards across the country and around the world. Mr. President this is the real solution to climate change: babies. Climate change is an engineering problem, not social engineering, but the real kind. It's a challenge of creativity, ingenuity -- and problems of human imagination are not solved by more laws. They are solved by more humans. More people mean bigger markets for more innovation. More babies will mean forward looking adults -- the sort we need to tackle long term large scale problems. American babies in particular are likely going to be wealthier, better educated, and more conservation minded than children raised in still industrializing countries. As economist Tyler Cowen recently wrote on this very point addressing this very topic -- quote, by having more children you're making your nation more populous thus boosting its capacity to solve climate change -- close quote. The courage needed to solve climate change is nothing compared with the courage needed to start a family. The solution to climate change is not this unserious resolution that we're considering this week in the Senate. But rather the serious business of human flourishing. The solution to so many of our problems at all times and in all places is to fall in love, get married, and have some kids.

JD: That was Utah Republican Senator Mike Lee speaking yesterday in Washington. And last night, the Senate defeated the Green New Deal.

[Music]

Part 3: Snowden refugee arrives in Canada

Halifax carding

Guest: Robert Wright

JD: A new report exposes a disturbing pattern of racial profiling by a Halifax-area police. The report by University of Toronto criminology professor, Scot Wardley, found that black Haligonians are six times more likely than white Haligonians to be subjected to a police street check. That is double the rate suggested in a previous CBC investigation. Robert Wright is a social worker and a sociologist with the People's Counselling Clinic. We reached him in Halifax.

MW: Robert what do you think of this finding that black people in Halifax are six times more likely to be carded or checked by police on the street?

ROBERT WRIGHT: Well Megan I'd have to say that it's not terribly surprising. I think that this report by Dr. Wortley has simply documented what has been the lived experience of African-Nova Scotians.

MW: Is it something that you've experienced as well?

RW: Yes. I think that Dr. Wortley's report demonstrated that black men are part of the population that are carded most frequently. And so I don't know if any of us have been able to escape the experience.

MW: Now in your work you hear from people who are statistically more likely to be targeted on the streets. How does carding make them feel? And how did it make you feel?

RW: I guess what I would say is that in the report there are lots of experiences that people share -- and there is a fear, there is a trauma, almost a shamefulness that happens when people are repeatedly subjected to this kind of treatment.

MW: Where does that feeling of shame come -- like what is the feeling of shame about?

RW: Well I think it's part of our complex history. Remember that street checks happen within the context of enslavement -- legalized segregation, periods when police were enforcing what are either sundown policies, laws, or practices in towns where they would chase black people from one end of town to the other to make sure that they were in their place late at night. So that kind of treatment can make people feel like there's something fundamentally wrong with them. And having that kind of treatment by police in the present day can awaken all of those concerns. There are some jurisdictions in the United States for example where judges have said that a black person fleeing the police is not necessarily a suspicious act. It may simply be a black person seeking to avoid the indignities associated with casual contact with the police. So if we think about that -- black people being subjected to the indignity of police checks -- we can understand why one would have shame associated with that.

MW: Now you were at the presentation of this report and also heard personal stories of young black men that were read out -- which account stood out for you among those?

RW: Well there was a young man who was in the audience actually who spoke to a circumstance that he experienced and that was probably the most profound. The young man by the name of Trayvon who was talking about walking home from a party alone at the age of 16. He remembered purposely leaving the party on his own because he didn't want to be a member of a group of young people walking the street together. He thought that that would just draw too much attention and he didn't want the attention. And sure enough walking home alone he was pulled over by police. One thing led to another in that exchange and he ended up face down on the pavement with a knee on his head, getting handcuffed, and thrown in the back of a car. So his dramatic story in the day -- you don't want to minimize the effect of that, but that has just been the experience of young black men in Halifax and in many other jurisdictions in Canada. So it's that daily indignity that we experience in street checks that Trayvon spoke to that was so profound today that really helped bring everything into focus I think.

MW: Now the researcher put forward recommendations: that street checks should be banned or at least regulated. What do you think of those?

RW: Well I'm a member of the Decade for Persons of African Descent Coalition here in Nova Scotia. And the position of the coalition is that street checks are illegal and they should be stopped immediately. And that is my position. I don't think that we should entertain the idea of better regulating a behaviour that is illegal. And as I said today at the press release if there is any ambiguity about the legality of street checks -- the fact that they are implemented in a way that today has been demonstrated perpetrates an injustice against black people, that fact renders street checks illegal.

MW: Well the Halifax Regional Police chief has defended the use of street checks and he says they're valid. I mean do you think it's possible to maintain the use of street checks as a police tool to make people safe and police crime as the police say they're needed for, but eliminate the racial bias that so often comes with it?

RW: I guess what I would say is this -- the Human Rights Commission in 2003 with the Kirk Johnson human rights complaint said that street checks are a problem. Part of the solution from that time was that the police were supposed to keep race based data on the street checks and there was supposed to be an academic study undertaken about the nature of street checks. From that time till this, the police have kept the data. And the data has been demonstrating the disproportionality of blacks being stopped by the police in street checks has actually been increasing since 2003. And the police have to-date done nothing to redress that injustice. So my confidence that now that this report has been released that there will be some kind of change of heart or some different way of implementing street checks in a way that does not harm black folk or disproportionately target them. My confidence in that is non-existent.

MW: Robert Wright thanks very much for speaking with me.

RW: You're very welcome.

JD: Robert Wright is a social worker and sociologist with the People's Counselling Clinic. We reached him in Halifax.

[Music]

Jason Walmsley

JD: Jason Walmsley is addicted to methamphetamine. He is behind bars for crimes he committed while he was high. And he wants people to know that he's sorry. Mr. Walmsley has been convicted of breaking and entering in the past. He's now at the Headingley Correctional Centre -- that's a provincial jail in Manitoba where inmates serve sentences of two years or less. Now he has written an essay for CBC Manitoba in which he discusses his addiction, the harm he has caused, and what he needs to make things right. Here he is reading an excerpt of that essay.

SOUNDCLIP

JASON WALMSLEY: I lay awake at night wondering where all this heartache will eventually lead. I am an addict. You read of me often in the news and have likely been affected by the selfish and destructive choices I've made. I am the crisis our city talks about. The emergency, our province has publicly declared. But I never wanted to be this person. For anything this may be worth, I am sorry. I have been a failure. A wayward cause that on paper most would agree is a last one. A worthless one. I swear I'm not. There is goodness within me. Writing about the man...writing about the man who sexually assaulted me at 14-years-old. Describing the bachelor apartment that became his prison when he locked the double-sided deadbolt with me inside. No one wants to read about that. My inclination is to blame the 16 years of drug addiction on this man. But it's not his fault. It wasn't his fault then, and it's not his fault now. It's my fault. I lay awake at night knowing I will end up alone. Hoping that the day will come when I no longer allow drugs to hold my future hostage. This is my fairy-tale. I learned long ago not everyone's story has a happy ending. What we need is help. I know we are not the noblest cause to fight for. We will test you and we will piss you off, manipulate, and deceive you. But please --please -- believe these words: we are worth fighting for. We are your sons and daughters, your brothers and sisters, and we desperately need your help now more than ever. We are salvageable.

JD: Jason Walmsley is an inmate at the Headingley Correctional Centre outside Winnipeg. He spoke to CBC Manitoba about his methamphetamine addiction.

[Music]

Betsy Devos

JD: The proposed cut was bound to prompt some serious pushback. United States education cecretary Betsy Devos has put forward a budget proposal that involves cutting all federal funding for Special Olympics USA. The organization provides athletic training and support to children and adults with intellectual disabilities. Funding from the U.S. government last year was 17.6-million dollars. Here is Secretary Devos answering questions from Wisconsin Congressman Mark Pocan at a committee meeting yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK POCAN: And I want to follow up on the thing Ms. Lee mentioned about the cuts to Special Olympics. Do you know how many kids are going to be affected by that cut Madame Secretary?

BETSY DEVOS: Mr. Pocan -- let me just say again, we had to make some difficult decisions with this budget...

MARK POCAN: Again this is a question of how many kids not about the budget...

BETSY DEVOS: I don't know the number of kids...

MARK POCAN: It's 272,000 kids. I'll answer it for you. That's okay. No problem. It is 272,000 kids that are affected.

BETSY DEVOS: Let me just say that I think that Special Olympics is an awesome organization -- one that is well supported by the philanthropic sector as well.

MARK POCAN: Reclaiming my time if I could have Madame Secretary because there are a couple more parts to this. So also we have cuts that go in the special education grants to states from three million to two point two million -- a 26 percent cut. And then also in this budget you have a seven point five million dollar cut to the National Technical Institute for the blind. A 13 million dollar cut for Gallaudet University. A five million dollar cut for federal program for print books for blind students. And you recently had a federal judge rule against us on some areas around special education. I have two nephews with autism. What is it that we have a problem with children who are in special education? Why are we cutting all of these programs over and over within this budget?

BETSY DEVOS: Well sir we have continued to retain the funding levels for IDEA (Individuals With Disabilities Education Act) and held that level. So in the context...

MARK POCAN: Sorry. I don't think I brought up IDEA. I believe I brought up Special Olympics, special education grants to states, the National Technical Institute for the blind, Gallaudet University, federal program for printing books. So if you can address those, that's the question I really appreciate.

BETSY DEVOS: I will address the broader question...

MARK POCAN: Or if you could actually address the question I asked. That's even a better way to answer a question.

BETSY DEVOS: Supporting students with special needs -- we have continued to hold that funding at a level amount and in the context of a budget proposal that is of 10 percent reduction.

MARK POCAN: All right -- I'll reclaim my time. I'll reclaim my time. You're not going to answer the question.

JD: That was Congressman Mark Pocan and Secretary of Education Betsy Devos at the U.S. House Appropriations Committee yesterday in Washington D.C.

[Music]

Snowden refugee

Guest: Vanessa Rodel

JD: Vanessa Rodel is ready to start her new life in Montreal. Yesterday, she and her daughter, Keana, arrived in the city after years of living in Hong Kong. They are part of a group of refugees who helped shelter former NSA whistleblower, Edward Snowden in 2013. Their asylum in Canada is bittersweet however because the rest of the refugees including Keana's father are still in Hong Kong. We reach Vanessa Rodel in Montreal.

MW: Venessa. Welcome to Canada.

VANESSA RODEL: Thank you. I hear this so many times -- and I'm so happy when I heard it.

MW: So what are you and your daughter most looking forward to now that you've arrived?

VR: Me and my daughter was looking forward to our new place to stay, and we are going to start in a new school -- she has to learn French language and I have to learn French language too.

MW: Right. Are you nervous about that?

VR: No. I'm just so excited to do everything because for many years I have been stuck in Hong Kong and it was really difficult for me and Keana.

MW: Well I want you to take us back to that time -- in fact to take us back to 2013. What did you think when your lawyer asked you if you could take in this man, Edward Snowden, into your home?

VR: I didn't know at the time who he was. And he asked me, he needs a to places stay.

MW: And did you gradually discover who he was? How did that unfold?

VR: Yeah I discovered who he was. The next morning, early morning -- before he go to bed, he told me he wanted the English newspaper -- so I wake up early and I go out and get English newspaper for him. So I'm shocked because he was in front of the newspaper.

MW: Wow.

VR: And you know, "he's -- oh my god! --- the most wanted man in the world (and) he is in my house." And I just go back in my home and I told him, that's you? He said yes. And so I find out who he was. And at the time you can see him everywhere -- the newspaper, the TV, everywhere.

MW: What did he say to you about why he was staying with you?

VR: You know before my lawyer came to my house he said he needs a place to stay, so I didn't ask any questions because I had to trust my lawyer. And for me he also seem like an asylum seeker at the time.

MW: You saw Edward Snowden as an asylum seeker?

VR: Yes.

MW: Were you scared that maybe someone would discover Edward Snowden was staying with you and hurt you?

VR: I never think about this because my lawyer advised to don't tell anyone and don't bring any friends to my house. So I'm safe.

MW: After Edward Snowden left and your identity was revealed as part of the group that sheltered him -- how did your life change in Hong Kong after that?

VR: When the news came out -- International Social Service who provide my basic needs -- he questioned me about Edward Snowden and how many of days he stayed at my house. So I refused to answer their question.

MW: You were questioned by Hong Kong authorities?

VR: Yes.

MW: And did you answer the questions?

VR: No. I stopped. I said I'm sorry I can't answer your question -- you better talk to my lawyer, Mr. Robert Tibbo.

MW: And then what happened to you?

VR: So that month they stopped my basic needs. And they don't want to help me to pay for my new house. I have very big problem because next door they had prostitutions. And you know at that time I wasn't allowed to work, I don't have any income, and I'm a single mom -- and my daughter is only four and a half years old at time. And I said you know you should help me. But no, nobody helped me. They never call me. They just didn't care about me.

MW: Were you afraid that at this time that you would be sent back to the Philippines?

VR: Yeah I'm so afraid because you know I had a high profile.

MW: But what would have happened to you if you had been sent back?

VR: Yeah I would be killed in Philippines. It is not safe for me to go back. It is danger for me and Keana.

MW: Your daughter Keana is now seven years old and she's lived quite a lot of her life in difficult circumstances. Does she feel the same relief that you do in coming to Canada?

VR: Yeah it is I suppose because I'm always protecting her. I'm so happy now we're in Canada. You know Keana -- there is so many racism in Hong Kong because of our skin -- because we have dark skin. So she is not happy for that when she was in Hong Kong.

MW: Now the rest of the refugees that helped Edward Snowden are still in Hong Kong -- including your daughter's father -- how worried are you about them?

VR: I'm worrying a lot for them. I know Keana should stay with her father. And I wish that they open the door for them to come here in Canada. Keana and her father -- I they should be together. So I am worrying a lot. I'm so worried about them. You know the life they receive in Hong Kong -- they have terrible [inaudible] . They don't have protection from government. They now have a very big problem with immigration -- at any time they can send back him back to Sri Lanka and their life is in danger in Sri Lanka. So I'm worrying a lot with them. I wish that Justin Trudeau, the Canadian government -- they accept the refugees here in Canada you know they deserve a better life. They stuck for many years in Hong Kong. That's very terrible situation.

MW: Well we'll be following their stories closely as well. Vanessa thanks so much. And the very best of luck in your new life in Canada.

VR: Thank you.

JD: Vanessa Rodel is part of a group of refugees who sheltered Edward Snowden in Hong Kong. We reached her in Montreal where she is now living with her daughter, Keana.

[Music]

Gull-Call

JD: Friends...Friends out there on the other side of the radio, can you hear me? When our producers came in to check the As It Happens Talkback line this morning they were expecting a chorus of high pitched squawks and screeching from you after we asked you to imitate seagulls. What they got instead was this.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Crickets chirping]

JD: Yes: a cricket's still living in our answering machine. My point is this: yesterday we asked you -- well we told you about the first-ever European Gulf Screeching Championship, and we invited you to call in with your own seagull impressions. Oddly, no one did. Dear listeners our producers are going to give you one more chance. But first here is part of last night's interview with that competition's judge Jan Seys.

MW: Okay, so I'm going to play you three contestants from the competition. And I'd like you if you don't mind to give me your judgment of their calls.

JS: Yup.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Human #1 sounding like a gull]

MW: OK. That was gull call number one. Tell us what you think about that, Jan.

JS: Yeah. Well, this sounds very much like a typical begging call for food. So that gull is saying it's probably a chick, and it's saying I want food. Of course, if you have such a chick on your roof terrace, and it starts screaming at 4:00 in the morning in June when the young get out of their eggs, it's rather annoying. And I can understand that people are not feeling very happy about that.

MW: So what would you give that one out of 20?

JS: This one was a very good one. I would say this is close to 17, maybe even 18.

MW: Wow! And that's without even seeing the re-enactment element.

JS: Yeah, but this is a real natural sounds as the herring gull would do.

MW: OK. So here's gold call number two.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Human #2 sounding like a gull]

MW: Jan?

JS: Yeah, this is what we usually call the long call. And it's a gull who is saying here I am. So this one I would was also a very good one. More or less the same, I would say also 17 to 18.

MW: OK. And at the risk of losing listeners, here's one more.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Human #3 sounding like a gull]

MW: Jan, your verdict?

JS: Yeah, also a very good one. It's a bit different. It's what they call the moo cow call. And it's another way of saying here I am because they have many ways of saying here I am. So it's comparable. And I would say again a 17, 18. These are some of the best ones you have been providing me.

MW: So what is the best, do you think?

JS: Maybe I would go for the last one.

MW: Oh, ok. Well I've got to tell you, we pulled a fast one on you. The last one is a real goal is a real gull.

JS: It’s a real gull, ah ha, ok! [laughs]

JD: That was the judge of the European Gull Screeching Championship, Jan Seys. So please, for the sake of our producers call our As It Happens Talkback line with your own seagull screeching. And we're going to sweeten it. We're going to bribe you a little bit. We're going to send a couple of those listeners who call in of the multitudes who do -- we're going to give you a gift of a limited edition As It Happens 50th Anniversary tote bag. The number to call is 416-205-5687. Or check out our website -- although it's hard to do a gill impersonation on the website -- cbc.ca/aih.

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March 27, 2019 Episode Transcript

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