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The Current Transcript for March 22, 2019

Host: Megan Williams

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

The Prophet Muhammad said when any part of the body suffers the whole body feels pain. New Zealand mourns with you. We are one.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern during the day of national mourning in Christchurch. We'll be talking to three New Zealanders who attended today's services about what it means for them going forward. That's first up. And then in the wake of the New Zealand attack balancing security with openness here in Canada.

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We've kind of taken it for granted. The mosque is open. Anybody can come and go as they please. Now security is a matter of every single person has to be somewhat responsible for it.

MW: Canadian places of worship or grappling with resisting fear yet providing a safe and secure haven. We'll hear from any imam and a rabbi on how they are coping and on how this latest assault on a place of worship is leading them to make changes. And then.

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My husband of 41 years lost his best friend and I lost my best friend. There were friends of ours and all of those men died.

MW: Remembering the dark days of the onset of AIDS. Winnipeg Doctor Dick Smith was leading a fight against an epidemic that both devastated and galvanized the city's gay community, his own. Some 40 years later, at the end of his career, one of Manitoba's first openly gay doctors looks back wiht sorrow and pride. That's coming up in an hour. I'm Megan Williams and this is the Friday edition of The Current.

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Man who survived attack on New Zealand mosque says he can forgive suspected killer

Guests: Aliya Danzeisen, Mohan Ibn Ibrahim, Bob Parker

SOUNDCLIP

[Call to Muslim prayer]

MW: The Islamic call to prayer in Christchurch New Zealand earlier today. It was that call to prayer that drew worshippers to Al Noor and Linwood mosques one week ago. And it was there that they faced a barrage of gunfire from a shooter bent on killing Muslims as they prayed. Today 5000 people gathered in Hagley Park in front of the Al Noor mosque to remember and to mourn. Imam Gamal Fouda spoke to the crowd.

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Last Friday I stood in this mosque and saw hatred and rage in the eyes of the terrorists who killed and martyred 50 innocent people and wounded 42. And he broke the hearts of millions around the world. Today from the same place I look out and I see the love and compassion in the eyes of thousands of New Zealanders . We have shown that New Zealand is unbreakable. We are broken hearted but we are not broken.

MW: Imam Gamal Fouda voicing one of many displays of solidarity in a week since the attack. Flowers are piled high at mosques around the country. Young people mourning their classmates are leading one another in Maori Haka tributes and hundreds gathered to put the first victims to rest. To speak about their experiences this past week we have three guests with us from Christchurch. Aliya Danzeisen is the lead coordinator with the women's organization of the Waikato Muslim Association. Mohan Ibn Ibrahim was at the Al Noor mosque last week when the gunman entered, and Bob Parker is a former Mayor of Christchurch. Hello to you all.

MOHAN IBN IBRAHIM: Hello.

ALIYA DANZEISEN: Good Evening.

BOB PARKER: Hi Good evening.

MW: Mohan Ibn Ibrahim how did you feel to have the chance to attend Friday prayers today a week after your experience your mosque?

MOHAN IBN IBRAHIM: First of all I want to give a thank for my Almighty for the second life. This is one thing that one can separate us from prayer. Today a historical day in New Zealand, that we all witnessed we performed out biggest Jomaa - the Friday prayer - in Hagley Park. This is incredible.

MW: Can you tell us about your experience that day? What are the memories that stand out a week later?

MOHAN IBN IBRAHIM: Still I just hear the sound of the gun firing. It's not easy to forget it at this moment. I believe it to take time to forget.

MW: And Aliya Danzeisen, what was the mood like at the prayers today?

ALIYA DANZEISEN: It was not celebratory but people were happy to see the support that all the non-Muslims gave. Basically to walk across the park you are walking together. It was quite overwhelmingly positive experience to walk basically next to your neighbour and they be there to support you as you prayed. So it is very emotional and very positive in that way. But it was also really important for us to come and powerful to say we are going to be praying at this mosque, and we are praying. We're coming back. It's not something that we're going to run from. Instead of just walking alone to our mosque, we were walking with all of New Zealand there.

MW: And Bart Parker. What did it mean for you?

BOB PARKER: Well I too share that experience of walking across the park and just watching the stream of people, hundreds, thousands of people walking together, to listen to the call to prayer, to observe a couple of minutes of silence together. And the feeling of it all of us supporting each other as New Zealanders. We maybe did try and sometimes by a different faith or different styles of clothing, but we all belong to this place. And today was that community, the broad range of the community is supporting one of the groups in that community that had been in receipt of a horrendous attack. And our message to Muslim brothers and sisters is that we want you to walk in this land and feel safe and contribute and be part of our community. We understand that's what you're here for. That's what we're all here for. So it was saying this was an attack on all New Zealanders. And we will all stand to get that and we will not stand for that treatment of our people.

MW: We've seen so much support for the victims from within the Muslim community and as you say, Bob, also from outside of it, from around the world really. There have been stories of total strangers dropping by the homes of victims to pay respects. Mohan Ibn Ibrahim, what support have you received from the community?

MOHAN IBN IBRAHIM: From the community, I express my gratitude to the New Zealand community and to the New Zealand police emergency response, and especially the prime minister that would have been supporting us everyday. We have a big support center here. Everybody come in and getting together and supporting each other. Today, just hearing that Bob was saying that this is the land for all of us. There's no separation as a Muslim. We just get into but there in one community. We share one loves together. We are staying strong. So this is remarkable that, since Friday, whatever support we are getting from the community it's really great. I need that's one of the great support we have been getting New Zealander.

MW: Aliya Danzeisen, there was a moment of silence today that the entire country to pardon. That was after the call to prayer. How meaningful was that for you?

ALIYA DANZEISEN: I found the whole day very meaningful and in that moment of silence, it was a moment for everybody to pause and reflect on what had happened a week ago. But it also allowed us to start beginning to think of the future and to think of the possibilities of what this nation will be. And the fact that the whole nation was doing it was very powerful to remember those who were lost. And from that it was something positive coming out of it. So I found myself actually crying during that period.

MW: I want to play you a clip now from another survivor of the shooting at the Al Noor mosque. Farid Ahmad is in a wheelchair and made it out alive but his wife didn't. She stayed behind to help other people. Listen to what he had to say about the man who took his wife's life.

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I don't hate the killer. I don't know any grudge against him. I have forgiven him. People who carry out terrorist attack, they want people to be afraid, but we Muslim, we Muslim leaders are saying that's not going to happen. We will not allow you to l feel afraid or to or to hate other people.

MW: Mahan Ibn Ibrahim, what's your reaction to that, hearing that Farid Ahmad Ahmad forgives the shooter?

MOHAN IBN IBRAHIM: I know Farid Ahmad personally honestly. He is the person who used to teach Islamic knowledge to our own community here in the mosque. As a Muslim leader, as a community leader, whatever he say, this is the real Islam said. Forgive the person that maybe he was lost. Maybe he has made the mistake like you know somewhere he didn't get the love from the family or whatever. So it as a Muslim we don't support that killing. So I agree totally with Farid whatever he said. That's the real Islam say, that's how you support.

MW: Are you able to forgive the shooter personally?

MOHAN IBN IBRAHIM: Yes.

MW: Bob Parker I want to ask you about the issue of racism and xenophobia. There was a commentary this week in the Washington Post by a reporter who was from Christchurch who writes that the city has always had a white supremacist underbelly. As a former Mayor of Christchurch, how concerned are you about the role of White Supremacists in your community?

BOB PARKER: I think we’re always concerned about extremists of any kind in our communities because those people who choose to not respect the rights of others in our community, who regard themselves as in some ways superior to other people are always unwelcome. That is not the way we live and think here. And unfortunately it does feel in the world today that extremism is exported around the world instantaneously on social media in particular. Sometimes it feels to me like a virus and it has come here like everywhere else and we've been infected to some small degree by this, although it is worth noting in this case that the attacker came from originally another country, was living in another city and chose a target in Christchurch and that is deeply thought to all of us. But I think if you look at our society - and we are a young country we're growing, we're learning, we're changing. If you look at the response right across New Zealand today, it wasn't just a few good people coming out to support a group of people that we want to support that community. This was right across the board. I think it's remarkable. I think that the gift of those who were lost in this time - and I must praise the dignity and the forgiveness of our Muslim community. I think they have shown a great example of how to respond to this kind of evil. But I think that right across the country there's been an outpouring of support and love. I think it's a great moment for us to move forward together as a nation. I think some barriers have been broken down in both directions. So we believe and we pray that out of all of this comes a greater understanding. You know I wouldn't want to focus on that extreme as an element. Someone did say to me if it's going to happen anywhere would potentially happen in Christchurch. And historically in this Island there had been more of the white supremacist groups. I don't think they have much power at this moment. I think that the power of the people has overwhelmed the negativity of that small group.

MW: Aliya Danzeisen, what's your experience of racism and xenophobia in New Zealand?

ALIYA DANZEISEN: Well because I've worked on the national level there are continual reports - of in particular females because were identifiable if we wear headscarves - and so it's an easy person to shout at or note who is. So with the rise in global issues related to Muslims in overseas there was definitely a rise in harassment, and then with leaders in more western countries coming out and really having [unintelligible] against Muslims, but not just Muslims but any people of color. There was a significant increase in in concern as well. So it exists but we aren't the only community that has people that don't like them. But it wasn't daily for me you know but we regularly had reports and comments and messages, posts that were inappropriate as well, emails. So it if it exists. You know some people say well it's not that much, but far young people it's significant. For the women we regularly would have it. Perhaps in other countries it's even stronger but there is definitely an increase. And there are actually studies in New Zealand that confirm that we up till this point feel less warmly, you know other people how their perception of us. However I think this event has changed that and probably will have a significant impact on how people view us. Because they come to know our country and our community whether in this week through the introductions. And that media and social media and social media can be negative, they both have very positive sides as well. And this week there has allowed New Zealand, but also other countries in the world, to become familiar with Muslims and basically realising were just the same and the prime minister's message, 'they are us' was significant in helping to do that as well.

MW: Right right. And you know I’m wondering this past week of course there's been a huge police presence and I'm wondering, Mohan Ibn IBrahim, to see that level of security around mosques and the religious ceremonies over the past week. How does that feel for you?

MOHAN IBN IBRAHIM: I really feel blessed great for this, the way from day one. The way police has been supporting, even today in the prayer time. Not only here, everywhere you go everywhere, you just see the police are giving you 'salam', police are just being so supportive. From any kind of help, it just a matter of making a call and talking to them. Just not to secure you. Just you know even on the phone as well. They are just being so kind and humble to support everyone.

MW: Bob Parker just quickly I want to ask you about the attack has prompted a quick response from your federal government, which just introduced legislation to ban military style semi-automatic weapons. What do you make of the prime minister's leadership over the past week?

BOB PARKER: She's been outstanding. I think the moment to move against the semi-automatic military style weapons was very well judged. That's huge support here to change that. It's been something the country has probably debated for 20 years and now we have political support right across the board. So we've had good leadership and we're able to make change. And I think again out of this great tragedy there are some positive things that can and are emerging into our community. That is one of them.

MW: Mohan Ibn Ibrahim is your mosque open again yet? Are you planning to go back?

MOHAN IBN IBRAHIM: No it's not open yet. We haven't heard anything about it. I am not sure yet on when they are going to hand it over to us, but we have a support center where we are praying every day until the mosque ready to hand over.

MW: And Aliya Danzeisen, you know people as well who were injured in the shooting. How are they doing?

ALIYA DANZEISEN: I have been amazed with strongly they've actually come back. First the shock really shook them, but as the people that I've been around, the people that I know are made of iron, you know steer. They are just coming back strong. Today they were at the funeral and you could see that stoic and strong nature and resilience. And they are moving forward very positively. It won't be the same but they are doing okay.

MW: Good to hear. Thank you are for speaking with me this morning. And my condolences for what happened.

MOHAN IBN IBRAHIM: Thank you.

BOB PARKER: Thank you.

ALIYA DANZEISEN: Thank you .

MW: Aliya Danzeisen is the lead coordinator with the women's organization of the Waikato Muslim Association. Mohan Ibn Ibrahim was at the Al Noor mosque last week last week when the gunman entered. And Bob Parker is a former mayor of Christchurch New Zealand. The CBC News is next. Then we'll continue with our coverage of the shootings in Christchurch. We'll be talking with a Canadian Imam and rabbi about how places of worship here are having to balance the need for safety and openness. I'm Meghan Williams and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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'Your tears are our tears': Jewish community to form rings of peace around Toronto mosques for Friday prayers

Guests: Ibrahim Hindi, Deborah Landsberg

MW: Hello I'm Megan Williams And you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

[Music Theme]

MW: And on the eve of his retirement, I'll talk with Dr. Dick Smith about his efforts as a gay family doctor fighting the rise of HIV AIDS in Manitoba. But first striking a balance between openness and security.

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[Crowds chanting]

MW: A vigil and rally for the victims of the New Zealand mask terror attacks in Toronto's Nathan Phillips Square was disrupted last night by a group of white nationalists. It was quickly diffused by police, but it underlines the tensions many Muslims must feel as they attend Friday prayers today, after last week's senseless bloodshed in New Zealand. Many here as well find themselves asking a question no one wants to ask at their place of worship: Am I safe here? It's a question that has been asked before after the shooting at a mosque in Quebec City and 2017. And in other religious spaces nine people were killed at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston in 2015 and 11 were killed at the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh last October. Ibrahim Hindy is one of many who is now wrestling with how to balance sanctuary and security at his place of worship. He's the imam of Dar el Tawheed Center and Mississauga and he joins me in our Toronto studio. Hello.

IBRAHIM HINDI: Hi.

MW: Take us back to last week. What went through your mind when you heard about the horrible attack in Christchurch New Zealand?

IBRAHIM HINDI: Obviously those are worst nightmares as a community being realized. And I think as a community leader at that moment I kind of had to park my own emotions aside, and just figure out okay what's next including that we had Friday prayers coming up basically the next day. So it was a matter of reaching out to local police and letting them know what was happening and asking for some of their support, so that they could come around the mosques. And trying to talk to our congregation about the measures that we have already been taking for the past few years on security so that they felt more secure and more safe to attend Friday's services.

MW: What were people saying in your congregation in terms of how they were feeling about going to mask after what happened?

IBRAHIM HINDI: I think a lot of people felt a little helpless in that they saw images or even videos or some of the carnage that happened in New Zealand and wondering if the same thing were to happen here. What could we possibly do to protect ourselves? And so that was a large feeling that was coming out a feeling of fear and being unsafe, at the same time people didn't want to be dictated by that they still wanted to make sure they attended.

MW: So what security measures are you now having to consider to implement at your mosque?

IBRAHIM HINDI: So I mean we've gone through upgrades for our infrastructure; cameras things like that. We've also talked to police and other community groups and other religious groups in fact about what the measures that they've been taking in the past to protect their places of worship so we can try to implement it in ours. We've had discussions on how to go through active shooter, maybe have one Friday where we have an incredibly short sermon just because we're going to go through an active shooter drill. And as difficult as it was you know some of us even try to analyze what happened in New Zealand to see if there are ways that we can ensure that in that situation people can get out of the building easier, because there they have very few exits out of the building and that contributed I think to a wider loss of lives. So we've gone through a lot of different steps that we've been taking and trying to get the entire consciousness of the community thinking towards security. I think in the past we've just kind of taken it for granted and now it's it needs to be part of our consciousness.

MW: I want to bring in another faith leader now who's also wrestled with these same questions. Deborah Landsberg is the rabbi at Temple Emanuelle and North York. She's also in our Toronto studio. Hello.

DEBORAH LANDSBERG: Hello.

MW: Rabbi Lansberg what have you been thinking as you've been listening to Imam Hindi describe the security concerns that his mosque?

DEBORAH LANDSBERG: I was thinking how painfully familiar all of his thoughts and actions are. For many of us. The necessity to look at security in our places of prayer is something we've wrestled with for a long time, we still are wrestling with and trying to improve.

MW: What are some of the security measures that you've had to put in place at your synagogue over the years?

DEBORAH LANDSBERG: Well our building actually was built at a time where Canadian Jews felt so much safer in their in their synagogues, so that all of our entrances - we have entrances on every side of the building - and we now have them all with cameras. We have them all locked on a buzzer system. We have a security guard there. Every time we have people entering the building for a program or a prayer service in a way that we didn't used to. So we've been fortunate in working with security companies that we've gotten to know the people who are there trying to provide safety for us. They know how to say 'Shabbat Shalom' to members when they walk in. They know a number of people by name by face and that helps people still feel at home.

MW: Right. Now I'd like your board to take me back to a time before these events unfolded, before you were worried about this kind of violence in your places of worship. What does it feel like to pray in a mosque on a regular day or Friday prayers? Imam Hindu.

IBRAHIM HINDI: I think the way it feels is that you just walk in and you don't have to be part of that community. You could be a traveller. You could be someone who just decided that one day to start praying, and they could just walk into the mosque and pray and stay for as long as they are. And that's typically how mosques around the country operate. It is opened doors policy. There has never really been even a second thought about security. It's just been open sexually for everyone to come in and use space. But now it's changing and we're continuing to have this kind of tug and pull between the function of the mosque is supposed to be an open safe space for anybody who wants it - doesn't matter who they are - Vs now having to either have a security guard or a security team that's assessing every single person entering into the mask, and figuring out do they belong or not belong. How far we want to go down that hall of security measures, it's going to be a conversation I think a lot of the community is having right now.

MW: Rabbi Landsberg what's it like for you? I mean to feel like you're having to, in a way, fortify your synagogue.

DEBORAH LANDSBERG: I think I, like many other Jewish folk, have an awareness that synagogues needing to be fortified is pretty typical in this world. There are a lot of synagogues one can't enter without having written to them in advance, having a rabbi testify that one's Jewishness. So I think that in the back of my mind or in the back of many of our minds there is always an awareness that there has been an unusual safety here. So in our particular [unintelligible] it's been an interesting dynamic of figuring out how to enhance security and yet still respect the ways that long time members are used to entering into this place as their home, so that we can all be safe even if it's a little different than we used to.

MW: The mosque shootings in New Zealand have affected people worldwide and across the country and I want you to hear from an imam in Calgary. Listen to what Navaid Aziz has to say about how he is wrestling with some of these same questions that you both are.

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This past Friday as I was delivering the Friday sermon, I have the ability to see the whole congregation. And every time someone would walk in, everyone would look back to see who it was because they chose this paranoia, you know, is this going to be a shooter? Is our mosque going to be under attack? And then after the Friday service to finish you know it's one of the first time - I've been here for seven years - that people have come up in hordes asking what is the strategy to protect the mosque. You know the type security that you are asking for is almost shocking. People were saying that Muslims should start getting their gun licenses and start bringing guns to the mosque. And if possible we should be hiring you know security. If that's not possible then perhaps consider locking down the mosque between prayer times or on the day of Friday during the prayer time.

MW: Emam Hindi, Navaid Aziz said that people worry every time they open the door at Friday prayers. They look back worried. People are thinking of even getting guns. What do you think when you hear that?

IBRAHIM HINDI: Yeah I mean that's the same conversation I'm hearing myself in my mosque. And I think particularly because of how New Zealand was so visceral and so gruesome, and that we all are exposed to the images one way or another. I think that that's changed mentalities. And so all the peaceful open community that's welcoming, that we would tell people all the time 0 Muslim and non Muslim - just walk into the mosque, just walk in. it's open. I think that's changing now and I am concerned that we don't go too far losing our identity, because we have to be firm in who we are in our values are being open people, welcoming people. We don't want to lose that.

MW: I have one more clip from Navaid Aziz that I'd like you both to listen to about how he chooses to respond to that fear.

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We don't want to do anything to heighten the sense of fear or even the paranoia that people may have. Now being afraid is a very valid option after you know a catastrophe like Christchurch. Well that should not lead one to live a life of fear. If we start bringing guns into the mosque with licences we start having armed security men, fear is never go away and we will never return back to our lives the way they were before.

MW: One of the goal of terror attacks of course is to kill people but it is also to perpetuate fear. Emam Hindi, how do you find the balance between keeping the mosque safe and not somehow colluding with the terror that was supposed to be spread by an attack like that?

IBRAHIM HINDI: Yeah I mean that's exactly true. The entire point is to make you act differently than you normally would. And you know I was talking to high school kids and elementary school kids recently about what happened in New Zealand. And part of my message was that whatever emotion you felt after you heard about it, whether that was feeling sad and depressed, whether that was feeling indifferent or numb, whatever feelings you had were valid. But we'd also want to drown ourselves in those emotions where we allow a feeling of depression to ecommerce entirely to allow the feeling of being unsafe to overcome us entirely. So absolutely we're going to be more conscious of security, and all of us have to be more conscious of security but we don't want to go to the extreme level that it just overwhelms our relationship to going to the mosque and being in a place of sanctuary and being there to worship your creator, which is the whole point.

DEBORAH LANDSBERG: I think that the difference between being horrified by what happened is different than being terrorized and being immobilized by that. And what I hear Ibrahim talking about is the way in which this is horrifying, but refusing to be terrorized by it. And I think that distinction is so important and the way in which it's supposed to change one's actions, I'd want to say - not that way but in other ways - I'm going to a mosque and that's not my usual action. But I, like many in the Jewish community here in Toronto, are forming rings of peace around different mosques in our community as we had coming to us from the Shabbat service after the massacre in Pittsburgh. Members from the Muslim community came to synagogues to be present to actively show that this evil is not what we accept.

MW: We've seen the attacks on mosques and in synagogues on black churches in the south as well. Why do you think someone would make, of all places, a place of worship a target for this kind of violence?

DEBORAH LANDSBERG: I've been giving a great deal of thought about this because there is something I think that's particularly venal, particularly wicked about attacking people when they are at prayer. You know people go to prayer for a lot of different reasons but whether one is there to commune with one's maker, or to be in the presence of those with whom one feels a deep affinity. It is definitional supposed to be the space where one is not putting on protective layers, but one is honest and true in one's self and known for one's self. And so it's particularly assaulting the very nature of why people are gathered. It's a desecration of God's name in going into a house of prayer where God's name is invoked to do this act.

IBRAHIM HINDI: Yes I think you said it perfectly. I mean there is a clear intention there to go after people on their most private moments, in their most sincere moments where you're letting down your guard. And in all moral codes and in all in all faiths there's always been a respect for people in their places of worship, and it was always considered a moral code in war that you avoided places of worship. And so this is an intention to desecrate things that everyone holds sacred and to create a massive amount of shock and a massive amount of fear and terror. And that's the intent behind it.

MW: I want to play you another clip. This one is from an imam from the Montreal area. His name is Hassan Gayer.

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We were affected in many ways. We were affected like human being, like you or anybody else. We were affected because we are Muslim and we noticed that Muslims are pointed out and singled out. We were affected that he opened the wound again. We were looking for opportunities to start healing and hear the name of the killer of Quebec city used in glorifying way, was definitely devastating.

MW: Imam Hindi. What does that say to you that barely two years after a mosque in Canada was singled out, that yet another mosque, the one in Christchurch, was targeted?

IBRAHIM HINDI: I mean I think to me the most surprising thing that I had of reflecting on right now was that after Quebec city, nothing really changed in terms of policy. There was coverage of what happened. There were sentiments. The community groups reached out. There were flowers sent pretty much every mosque around. You know we saw all these great friendships but we did not see our politicians start taking tangible steps. And just recently we've had white supremacists that continue to be normalized and that type of ideology continue to be normalized. And it's a problem, not just in Canada, but across the western world. And so I think for me it's just kind of a reminder that we're still not dealing with the problem and we still need to we need to find a way to deal with it.

MW: Rabbi Landsberg. How in the wake of the horrific violence have you seen different faiths show solidarity? I mean you mentioned the ring of peace. Are there other examples of different faiths coming together to show that they stand as one against the sort of hatred that's perpetrated online or in violent acts as well?

DEBORAH LANDSBERG: I think the rings of peace right now are probably the most visible sign, visible action. But more quietly I know of more groups now trying to connect and form relationships that where everyone is politically the primary question is not to find by one's partisan politics, but that one's prepared to call out people wherever one is; one's friends, one's close people, on attitudes or language that gives sanction for this. I don’t know anyone who says 'oh this was fabulous, how wonderful' but I have encountered people for whom it's a 'yes, but'. Yes this is horrible but they get somewhere else. And I think there are is like that that many people have started accepting and are recognising the way in which they are insidious and undermine the society which were striving to maintain. It was at Shabbat services Saturday morning where the most asked question of me is: Rabbi what are we doing? What are we going to do recognizing wanting, desperately seeking, a way to respond symbolically but beyond the symbol. I will say we know in our schul the power of the symbolic action at our solidarity Shabbat, after the Pittsburgh shooting, when we had 60 members from the local mosque. They drove 45 minutes to come to us, stood outside our synagogue to form two lines of condolence. And then to stay and be present. I had congruence that was one of the most profoundly moving experiences that they'd had in our sanctuary, and that recognition that that is- and it's only a start. Unless we do something more with that, I think there are a lot of people are in that place with that awareness that now is the time to build sustaining relationships.

MW: Imam Hindi. What do these gestures of support mean to you?

IBRAHIM HINDI: You know I think it's just incredibly powerful. Sometimes when these attacks happen you sort of feel like you're alone. I was talking to greet threes. I asked them what did you feel after that? A little kid puts up her hand and she says: "I felt unwelcome.' That was a very profound thought that she had, being that young, but you know that's the realities that you start feeling unwelcome, start feeling you're alone. And then there is you know hateful voices that - like we mention - are proliferating everywhere and telling you that everybody hates you and everybody's against you. And a small part of you might believe that's true. And so when you see community show up and be like your tears are our tears and we're with you, that's so profoundly deeply touching. And just letting you know that you're not alone in that there are people who do share your pain and want to send with you. It's incredibly powerful. We had conversations with another synagogue, a month before for New Zealand, where they sent people who rent security for their synagogue. They've come and talked to us about security and what they were doing to help all the mosques in our area figure out had created a security strategy. And that's so deep because it's not just in the moment where you feel bad seeing the carnage, but it's without a horrific event being there but still wanting to lend a helping hand and seeing our challenges as being similar. We're Canadians. We're all neighbors. And we're all in this together. We all need to have each other's backs. Even if we have a different perspective on certain things that we still need to recognize, there is a lot that binds us together.

MW: I'm wondering what can the wider community in Canada do to help your mosque feel more safe after an attack like this?

IBRAHIM HINDI: I think that it's a personal responsibility for everyone to recognize that these murders did not come out of nowhere. There is a culture that's creating this. And you know like the rabbi mentioned, that people when you hear someone saying 'yes, but' and trying to provide defense for these terrible tacks to call that out, take a stand against that. Because Islamophobia kills and we've seen what it's done, and anti-Semitism kills and we've seen what it's done. We need to we know that that's a reality and each have a moral responsibility to work against that.

MW: What message would you offer each other in the wake of these sorts of attacks. I'll ask you first, Rabbi Landsberg. What would you tell Imam Hindi?

DEBORAH LANDSBERG: I need a minute to think about it. It is a tough question.

IBRAHIM HINDI: Putting you on the spot.

DEBORAH LANDSBERG: I know it's less what I would I guess think to tell you, rather than wanting to be in conversation. I think there are a lot lot of Canadians here who understand, who've experienced on the inside what does it mean when there are others who want to make you feel on the outside. And knowing that, God bless, I hope a lot of us work very hard not to do that to anybody else. Hopefully I would want that together we could probably figure out better ways to help influence our society in a way that makes it more just and more tolerant and more vibrant and that way.

IBRAHIM HINDI: Yeah I mean I think that we've seen so many acts of sympathy coming from different communities and particularly the Jewish community. Over the past little while I think that it touches us in a really deep way. And I've been overcome some times with the emotional for that. I always tell people that the most difficult thing I had to do was talk to those kids about what happened in New Zealand, and the one thing that I felt really helped me reassure them was when I was able to point to the sympathy that we've received from community groups like your own. Being able to point to that and to say that you're actually not alone. There are people care and there are people out there who would defend you as much as they would defend their own. I think that was inspiring to those kids and it's inspiring to me. All I want is for us to continue building those relationships and not just to be at the aftermath of an event but to continue growing those friendships as much as possible because I think both of our communities really depend on that.

MW: Thank you both so much for coming in and speaking with me today.

IBRAHIM HINDI: Thank you.

DEBORAH LANDSBERG: Thank you.

MW: Ibrahim Hindi s the imam at the Dar Al Tawheed Center in Mississauga. Deborah Landsberg is the rabbi at the Temple Emanuelle in North York. They were both in our Toronto studio. Coming up the life and career of a gay family doctor who led the charge against HIV AIDS in Winnipeg for almost 40 years. And hockey night in Cree, a first for the NHL. I'm Megan Williams and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Curre

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Broadcaster who held onto his language through residential school to call NHL game in Cree

Guests:

MW: I'm Megan Williams and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current. For many Canadians the sound of an excited hockey announcer calling a game winning goal is as Canadian as, well, hockey. But this Sunday night fans will have a chance to hear something unique and historic. The Aboriginal People's Television Network in partnership with Sportsnet will broadcast a game this Sunday between the Montreal Canadiens and the Carolina Hurricanes in a Cree language. Clarence Iron will be doing the play by play. He is a Cree language radio host and he's in Pinehouse, Saskatchewan. Hello.

CLARENCE IRON: Hello. Good morning or good afternoon.

MW: Good morning Clarence. Tell me how did you end up being chosen to call this historic hockey game?

CLARENCE IRON: Yeah I'm living up in Pinehouse north here, I didn't really see the advertising until later on. My friends put it on these here and right away thought of me because I used to call played by play English, but the odd time I through in the Cree language in there for about two minutes no more than five minutes of Cree play by play. The tournaments I used to call in Saskatchewan and also in British Columbia and in Alberta.

MW: So when you throw your hat into the rink so to speak did you have to do an audition? I mean what was involved in getting this gig?

CLARENCE IRON: Yes well you have to do an audition for a show. Yes.

MW: So what, did you send a tape or was how did that work?

CLARENCE IRON: Well I sent in a little clip that I found. I do have some old archives that I carry and that I keep. You want to take a listen?

MW: Yes I'd love to.

CLARENCE IRON: Okay, here it goes.

SOUNDCLIP

[Clarence calling a game in Cree]

CLARENCE IRON: That was one of the tournaments that I called.

MW: Well I have no doubt why they why they picked you after listening to that brief clip. So tell me how did you get into calling hockey games?

CLARENCE IRON: Well it's a long story. Way way back I started loving hockey, listening to play by play caller. The late [unintelligible]. Danny Galvin was my favorite because it made it sound exciting and he was smooth and some other color stuff that he threw in there.

MW: Well you certainly make it sound exciting as well. Have you always spoken Cree or did you learn it later in life?

CLARENCE IRON: Oh that was my first language. I was raised by elder. I learnt it at home, the elders that raised me growing up. That's all I heard was Cree language. That's what I learnt throughout road my years.

MW: I understand you were at a residential school for a while where I would expect you did not- you probably weren't allowed to speak your language.

CLARENCE IRON: Well you know I have seen three phases of the changes in residential schools. I've seen part of the times of the priests, the nuns that run residential school but then it was ran by Indian Affairs of Canada. That's when I moved there and then after that my last days of high school it was run by a tribal council.

MW: I see.

CLARENCE IRON: A lot of people ask me how did you manage to preserve your Cree well. You know what? It sounds funny but I thought to myself quite a bit, as if somebody was there that I talk to. But nobody to hear me or no body to be around, they would think I'm nuts.

MW: So when you're calling hockey games are you still talking to the same imaginary friend, or who do you imagine you are talking to?

CLARENCE IRON: Well now it's a little different now you know things have changed . Now we're being like set free. We can speak our language anywhere at all. I’m not scared to speak Cree in front of a crowd or the whole nation. So but back then I don't know why people were as scared. There's a lot people older here, still they understand that Cree but they cannot be kept. And some can speak it but they're not bringing it out. So you know eventually it was because of the past history. There's a lot of Cree speaking people, yet they understand. It is just a matter of bringing it all out. I know a lot of people out here, a lot of the community they still hold on to Cree language.

MW: Now you UNESCO declared the year 2019 as the International Year of indigenous languages. How important is an event like this to preserving languages like Cree?

CLARENCE IRON: This is where we show the people to showcase our talents. The Cree language is very important. We need to preserve it and we can do it. Then it all starts at home. Like I said I learned my own home and a curriculum to be in the school level and that way the kids will pick up from there. So it's very important and this is happening where we can showcase our talents. I know that we have that talent to do things at a national level.

MW: Now you are from northern Saskatchewan and you see big Plains Cree. When you're calling the game on Sunday night how much will say Cree speakers from James Bay and Quebec, or Southern Alberta understand of what you're saying?

CLARENCE IRON: Well they will understand. I'm originally from the Canoe Lake Cree Nation and I'm working in Pinehouse Lake, Saskatchewan with [unintelligible] radio. I cried a Cree programming. We have a lot of listeners online and we've been reaching a lot of people across Canada. There's people listening, even in Ontario, in Quebec, Manitoba, listening to our online Cree. So we do understand that Cree language itself is a bit different. It's just like anything else. There is a dialect. That's a little different. That's about all.

MW: So people can understand the words even if they're slightly different.

CLARENCE IRON: Yeah it's a little different. You know when I was playing hockey- I played hockey myself - I could hear that team we used to play against the southern teams, they are from a different province. We say [indistinct Cree word] that's to shoot a puck. And some of them say [indistinct Cree speech] which means the same thing, you're shooting, just like shooting a rifle. [Indistinct Cree speech]. And some say [indistinct Cree speech]. It means that your target shooting [indistinct Cree speech]. So I'll be using those terms as well when I’m calling play by play.

MW: Are you going to use them sort of interchangeably?

CLARENCE IRON: Yes. Interchangeably because so people will understand [indistinct Cree speech] and stuff like that.

MW: Well this is obviously such a historic moment. How are you feeling about it? Are you nervous?

CLARENCE IRON: Oh no I'm not nervous. You know thinking of our Cree people or our indigenous people around the nation. You know they deserve something like this. We need to showcase our talent. I want to try and do a good job. I've been getting a lot of comments and telling me you know Clarence good for you. You know I hope you do a good job and you know I am ready to go for it. It's just a matter of knowing the players and their numbers, that's the number one thing. When you prepare for hockey you've got to know the players and their numbers.

MW: Have you got them all memorized?

CLARENCE IRON: Well I'm trying to do it. As a matter of fact I still got a few days here but you know I've done this before. So I think I can do it.

MW: And when you grow up watching hockey games which were in English and French when you think of the young hockey fans now sitting in their living room floors and watching this game being called in Cree, what are your hopes for them?

CLARENCE IRON: Well I just hope their youngsters here they listen because even right here in our studios at [unintelligible] radio we do have a system here where- we're just located just walking distance from here to the arena. Now I do call Cree play by play but it's minor hockey. Little kids they like listening about play by play hockey. Those kids are indigenous, they are Cree and maybe one of those kids might grow up to be play by play announcers someday. They're very interested. They stand around me when I'm calling play by play, so somebody got to be interested. So I was interested in listening to play by play in the NHL.

MW: A couple of years ago newscaster's in New Zealand began inserting Maori words into their newscast. Can you envision a day here in Canada where hockey play by plays might use indigenous words?

CLARENCE IRON: Oh yes. You know everybody needs a break the rule. You know I was always hoping back in the 70s, one day I'd like to call play by play hockey in the NHL. So now it's going to happend. So I guess maybe my vision or my hope is coming through.

MW: I want to get in the mood for Sunday night. Let's listen to a little highlight from Tuesday night's Montreal - Philadelphia game.

SOUNDCLIP

[Hockey game]

MW: So we just heard the Canadians Brendan Gallagher score. Clarance, if Brendan Gallagher scores again on Sunday night how will you do the call?

CLARENCE IRON: [Calling in Cree].

MW: Fantastic. Thanks very much. I'm dying to see the game already.

CLARENCE IRON: Thank you.

MW: Clarence Iron is a Cree language radio host. On Sunday he will be calling the Montreal-Carolina game in a cream language. Clarence Iron was in Pinehouse, Saskatchewan.

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Meet Dr. Dick Smith, the Manitoba physician and activist who has been fighting the scourge of HIV/AIDS for four decades

Guest: Dr. Dick Smith

MW: You're listening to the Friday edition of The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Megan Williams.

SOUNDCLIP

Dr. Smith, I remember, took me by my hand and said, 'John we’re going to have to talk about just sexual activity'. And basically told me no more doing what you want and this and that. And my sexual activity changed or overnight like that overnight like that. I learnt about safe sex practices you know. Dr. Smith taught me all that. I think I would be dead. I would be dead.

MW: That's the voice of John Lawrie talking about his Doctor Dick Smith and the impact he had on his life as a gay man in the 1980s. The family physician from London England landed in rural Manitoba in 1972. He stuck around and became a pioneer and that province's medical community, a gay doctor treating gay patients as a frightening new disease spread through his community. Here is another one of his patients Jim Kane.

SOUNDCLIP

I tested positive right off the hop. You know here was calm cool bedside manner was very very important. And for his compassion and empathy rang through. In the early days in the 80s, a lot of people at the village clinic where I was seeing him after I was diagnosed, burnt out after a few years. And here's a doctor that stood the test of time and was there for our community. You know I think his service is commendable. He broke down a lot of barriers. He was doing educational seminars about awareness, about how you can transmit it and how you can't get it. Because in the early days there were a lot of people, even the serving staff, wouldn't go away and to serve a person living with HIV. The visitors like us we had to go in and he helped break down the barriers. He inspired people. He had a sense of the patient but also a sense of community.

MW: Jim Kane a patient of Dr. Dick Smith. Dr. Smith led the fight against HIV AIDS in Manitoba for almost four decades and now he's retiring. He joins me now from our Winnipeg studio. Hello.

DICK SMITH: Hello.

MW: What does it mean to you to hear those voices of your former patients as you're about to retire?

DICK SMITH: Of course it's wonderful to hear that that was how people experienced what I was doing. At the time really my nose to the grindstone. I just was very very busy and doing things that made total sense.

MW: I want you to take me back to 1979 when you opened your first clinic in Winnipeg. This was pre HIV AIDS of course. What did you envision for your practice at the time?

DICK SMITH: Well I had been offered a partnership in a large and successful clinic, but by 1979 I had realized that I wanted to have a practice where lesbians, gays and transgender patients could feel comfortable.

MW: Now you had come out as gay yourself at this time. I mean can you tell me a bit about the climate towards gay people in the late 70s early 80s?

DICK SMITH: I had been through medical school in London as a terrified gay man. It was the era when one was a criminal. So one was a very frightened nervous person, isolated, experiencing a lot of despair. When I was in rural Manitoba I heard on CBC Radio about the marriage of Chris Fauville and Richard Knox. And although I was terrified that anything in my demeanour might give me away as as gay my mind was totally blown away. And then when I did move into Winnipeg attended a GFE coffee house.

MW: And sorry what is GFE?

DICK SMITH: Oh Gays For Equality. And again I check that there was no one in the corridor before I went in to the number but unsigned room where the coffee house was taking place. And the second visit to that I met my partner and we then became very active and Gay Liberation.

MW: At what point did you decide that it was important for gay people in your city to have care to have medical care that was sensitive to their issues and delivered by someone who is gay?

DICK SMITH: It was about '78 that I thought I should do this. We had been reading The Advocate, a gay newspaper out of the states, and I saw mention of a gay physicians group, the Bay Area Physicians for Human Rights. And that was very helpful to me in realizing that there was specific health needs for sexual minorities.

MW: What was the reaction like of the broader community to what you wanted to do at this time?

DICK SMITH: Well I was very fortunate in Winnipeg we have a well-known Community Clinic, K clinic, that was a very progressive clinic. They were very supportive of me and they referred a lot of patients to me. So it was not only sexual minorities and gender minorities but also progressive heterosexual people. And so my practice was - I got off to a very good start because of that.

MW: So moving forward a couple of years to 1981 which is when AIDS first started to emerge.

DICK SMITH: What are you hearing about the new disease in Winnipeg at the time sometime after 1979 and the date must've been 81. I had actually gone down to attend a symposium rounds on herpes and that was undoubtedly the first meeting that occurred anywhere that the clinical phenomenon there were coming to light were discussed. So I came back to Winnipeg bemused as everybody was as to what these strange and alarming symptoms were occurring in gay patients were.

MW: And it would take a couple of more years before you actually saw your first patient with HIV AIDS in Winnipeg. Can you take me back to that day?

DICK SMITH: Yes. In 1985 to patients two had been living in Toronto returned and when I was examining them I discovered that they had enlarged lymph glands and the various blood changers suggesting they might have HIV. Now in those days there was no blood test to diagnose it. It was a clinical diagnosis. But at that point we realised we had to advise the general public that HIV was in Manitoba.

MW: After you made that first diagnosis and that the rate shot up of course in the 80s everywhere, did you have any idea of what you were in for in terms of the numbers of people you would be treating?

DICK SMITH: No I never really considered that I remain very optimistic that the tremendous community involvement we'd had in developing educational pamphlets around prevention, and around voluntarily abstaining from donating blood, if your motive was altruistic, around living with someone with HIV and what was safe and what wasn't.

MW: Now despite your initial optimism, I imagine you lost a lot of friends and patients over the years.

DICK SMITH: Yes indeed. My husband of 41 years last his best friend I lost my best friend. There were friends of ours, a couple of those men, who went south and became professors at Toronto General Hospital. Another man went on to study psychiatry in San Francisco and came back and founded the Mt. Sinai HIV psychiatric unit and all of those men died.

MW: Sorry.

DICK SMITH: So, there were people around us who we knew.

MW: How was that for you treating this epidemic that that was in the heart of your own community? I mean how did that affect the work that you did?

DICK SMITH: You know what. It's very strange. I mean obviously there was a lot of pain and I did experience that but I was so busy that I hardly had time to think about it or to grieve. I got to very few funerals. It was just the work just had to be done and getting on with it really.

MW: You watch the epidemic eventually spread to other communities, you know people who were using needles, then eventually the indigenous population in Manitoba. Were you prepared for that?

DICK SMITH: On those remote reserves, for a long time and maybe still in some places, there was considerable homophobia. I by the way had prepared myself for the new HIV populations by doing a year or two as a medical officer in a provincial jail system, and then by working for the non-medical unit going up to reserves. When I was there I would be aware of two or three gay people on the reserve but they wouldn't associate in any way. The risk of being identified as gay was too great for them.

MW: So much has changed in the last decades spells both with regards to HIV and AIDS and the rights of gay people LGBTQ people. You know I'm curious last month a second man who had been living with HIV was declared totally free of the disease. Did you ever think you'd see a day when a cure was a word you'd hear associated with HIV AIDS?

DICK SMITH: Well certainly not in those very earliest days. The medications did start to come in first terribly toxic. Doses of AZT. Other drugs were sometimes tried which caused death. And then gradually an [unintelligible] of drugs built up and now it's just totally amazing I think because there's been this move. Well the optimistic move is a cure by 2020. I think that [unintelligible], the director of NAID in America perhaps more sort of cautiously said that the possibility of being able to achieve remissions is a very reasonable thing.

MW: Again there's been so much positive change and developments with regards to treating HIV and AIDS and the gay community as well rights, recognition for LGBTQ people. But I wonder going forward what worries you the most?

DICK SMITH: There's two big worries I have. One is that as our species continues to kind of destroy our planet but also move in the forests and jungles of the world, the very thing that happened before where a virus previously confined to animals mutated into one which was deadly for beings could happen again. In that context, gay men particularly young gay men have become very sexual and the dating sites have made it possible for the frequency of sexual contact to be back to where it was in the days that the bathhouses. So I do have a concern. It is perhaps a remote possibility but I do have a concern that something similar to what happened with HIV could happen again. My other concern is that we are a sexual minority. We will always be a minority and just as Jewish people or black people in predominantly white societies, or white people in blacks societies, or Muslims in the Christian societies, or Christians in predominantly Muslim societies can be picked done by politicians or people who have distorted views about these things. I believe it is possible that sooner or later the rights that we've achieved will be taken away from us. And there's enough of that happening around the world already to warn us about that; Russia, Brazil, and so on.

MW: Right. Dr. Dick Smith when you look back on these past 50 years what are you most proud of?

DICK SMITH: You know so many things I am so proud of my husband who really, you know, it's sometimes very difficult to be the partner of a physician - you know unpredictable mealtimes and things like that. And he was truly wonderful but also many many people in the gay community who stepped up to the plate and helped and so many many ways. I think that most proud of, straight and gay communities.

MW: Dr. Dick Smith thank you so much for speaking with me today and thank you for your decades of work.

DICK SMITH: Thank you.

MW: Dr. Dick Smith is an activist and family physician who's retiring after decades as a doctor in Winnipeg. He was in our Winnipeg studio. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q when guest host Ali Hassan is joined by Olympic ice dancing champions Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir. And remember you can always take the client with you to go on the CBC Radio app. It's free from the App Store or Google Play. I'm Megan Williams. Thanks for listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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