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The AIH Transcript for March 20, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

JD: Tonight:

CO: Be my guest. A tiny hotel in Zimbabwe opens its doors to hundreds of desperate survivors who fled cyclone Idai — the deadly storm that swept away their homes.

JD: Kicking the habit. London's National Portrait Gallery becomes the first major museum to refuse a donation from the family behind the makers of OxyContin. And a photographer Nan Goldin urges other galleries to follow.

CO: Seasoned opponents. A Nova Scotia Court case pits one man against his former business partner. Each arguing they own their rights to their special donair spice.

JD: The difference between right and wrong. An ethics investigation finds a Canadian senator broke the Red Chamber's rules by posting racist letters about indigenous people. But Lynn beyak is refusing his request to take down those letters and apologize.

CO: The sweet hereafter. And North Carolina second-hand shop warns that a bedroom set it's offering is inhabited by nightmare-inducing ghosts, but it sells anyway.

JD: And digging up political dirt. A Kansas artist plows a plot into a massive dirt and gravel portrait of aspiring Democratic presidential candidate Beto O'Rourke.

JD: “As It Happens”, the Wednesday edition. Radio that's watching the whole race with a furrowed brow.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Cyclone Idai hotel, Beyak Senate ethics, Beto crop circle

Cyclone Idai hotel

Guest: Mandla Mataure

JD: The UN says Cyclone Idai could be the worst weather disaster ever to hit the Southern hemisphere. Several hundred people are believed to have died as the storm swept through Mozambique, Malawi, and Zimbabwe. Some villages have been entirely destroyed. Others are still underwater — leaving survivors grieving and without homes. But Mandla Mataure is trying to make it a bit easier for some. Mr Mataure is the manager of the Chimanimani Hotel in Zimbabwe. They are sheltering hundreds who've been left homeless by the storm. We reached Mr. Mataure at the hotel.

CO: Mandla, when did you decide that you needed to open the doors of your hotel to the people in your community?

MANDLA MATAURE: It was around mid-morning on Saturday. I looked out the window, and I saw some people walking in the rain carrying their belongings. Some people had umbrellas, some didn't, you know? it was women and children kind of trying to make their way up to our main business district. So I kind of saw that there were coming up and they had nowhere to go, so I just said to one of our porters at the hotel that he must go to the village you know to the town centre and call them to come and get into the hotel, you know? We lit some fires you know just tried to keep them warm because the rain was still pouring, and it rained throughout the day and into Sunday and Monday as well.

CO: How many people did came back to stay at your hotel then?

MM: Well initially, it was about 50-60. Then it became a few hundred. Then by the time we actually got to feeding people that evening, we were up to just under 500.

CO: Oh my gosh! And what did these people tell you about why they had started to walk? What had happened to their homes?

MM: Their homes have completely been destroyed. You know heavy rain wind and you know where the houses were built, there have been trees that had been uprooted. There's just a complete mess. Some people were in their homes when it happened. Others were injured when they were trying to get out and get to safety. So it was it was quite devastating.

CO: This is all from Cyclone Idai.

MM: Yes, correct. Yes.

CO: And so you have all these hundreds of people I presume you were not anticipating, how are you feeding them?

MM: Well initially, day one and Day two, we kind of went to some of our local shops to just buy a bit a of maize meal, some meat, and yeah we pretty much just started cooking. I think day one was sort of just trying to get a team together, a few able-bodied people to just help us with the cooking process. Because I mean our kitchen normally handles you know maybe 50-100 people. So by the time we got to day two, at least we started to get a bit of a system going. And that's pretty much still where we are.

CO: And was everyone pitching in with the cooking?

MM: Everyone is pitching in with the cooking. We've got you know a lot of young men and women you know who also were displaced, but they've been very supportive as well. You know they realize that's all part of a community. So if we all want to eat, we need to chip in.

CO: But your hotel is not that large, you have I think about 35 rooms. So where are people sleeping?

MM: We've got a conference room, and another room that we use as a lounge. So people are sleeping... call it camping style.

CO: And what are you doing for sanitation. I mean there's always that many people all together and they're there their bodies are weak, so it's easy to get sick. So how are you managing that part?

MM: Correct. Well look, day one was ok. Day two became a bit tricky because our water in our boreholes ran out. So since we started having meetings with a local council, they helped us run a pipe to get to get a bit of water supply, so that you know people can have clean drinking water. In terms of like flushing toilets and that kind of thing, you know our swimming pool is obviously very full since the rain came in. And so we're using to sort of with a bucket system to try and just flush and also just keep the place clean. So we've, again, roped people in to also help us just sweep and mop, and just kind of keep the place as hygienic as possible because we don't want to have a cholera outbreak or typhoid outbreak or something.

CO: People were describing when the cyclone hit and you were there, it was just that they'd never heard and seen that kind of rain — that kind of a storm — before. What was it like to be in Cyclone Idia?

MM: The night it happened, I mean I was here in my room, and just hearing the sound of the wind and the force of the rain hit against the windows was unbelievable. So I can’t even imagine what it was like what it must have been like to be in one of the village houses and that kind of thing because they were the ones that were affected directly.

CO: I understand some of your hotel staff do come from those villages, and you've had some tragedies among your working people. So what’s happened there.

MM: Yeah, quite a few of our staff do come from one of the villages that was badly affected or hardest hit. And one of our receptionists, unfortunately, lost her life. Just barely I think about an hour after she left the hotel, you know heading home after the night shift. I'd just been speaking to her, and we proposed that maybe she sleep over at the hotel, but she wanted to rush home to her daughter. So again, you know it's one of those things you never know what's going to happen. But the next morning, that's when we got reports that you know she had unfortunately passed away.

CO: Oh, I'm so sorry.

MM: Yeah. Yeah thanks. I think it was it was it was quite quite shocking to hear.

CO: Are you getting the supplies? I mean is the government of Zimbabwe or any of the aid agencies are they getting to you… because you're going to need much more food, right?

MM: Yes, we are.

CO: What are you hoping… are you expecting anything to arrive?

MM: So far, there's been a lot of support that's come through from the government, from the military, from you know private businesses, churches, you know donor organizations, NGOs, and that kind of thing. But, unfortunately, all the resources — all the donations and items that they've collected — can't get to us because our road network has been damaged so badly that the only way would be to airlift things into us. You know the weather's only cleared today for the first time in about four days. So at least the helicopters have been in the air trying to get injured patients out of here and give them to the nearest clinics. But then also the next step will be the end to find bigger aircraft that can actually bring in food supplies and medical supplies and that kind of thing.

CO: Well, Mandla, I hope you soon get the relief supplies that you need. And I'm really glad you were there for your villagers. It's just devastating to know what they've gone through.

MM: Yes, it really is. This is definitely the worst that this area has experienced in a long time.

CO: Mandla, thank you.

MM: You're most welcome. Thank you very much for taking the time to listen to me.

CO: Bye-bye

MM: Bye

JD: Mandla Mataure is the manager of the Chimanimani Hotel in Zimbabwe, where hundreds of Cyclone Idai's victims have found shelter. We do have more on this story, including photographs of the destruction, online at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Sombre]

Beyak Senate ethics

Guest: Frances Lankin

JD: Senator Lynn Beyak has always maintained that the letters that she posted from her supporters were not racist. The Senate's ethics officer disagrees. Pierre Legault says the letters about Indigenous people are racist and that Senator Beyak's decision to post them broke the chamber's code of conduct. Lynn Beyak was a Conservative when she argued that the residential school system did some good for Indigenous children. She was then kicked out of the party for refusing to take down the letters that came in from those who supported her comments. Frances Lankin is one of the senators who filed a complaint against Senator Beyak. We reached her in Ottawa

CO: Senator Lankin, are you satisfied with the Ethics Officer’s finding that Senator Beyak broke the code of conduct?

FRANCES LANKIN: I think the Commissioner's report is very well written. A lot of very good analysis, thoughtful to the point of looking at the difference between racist comments and hate speech and really passing out the issues that were raised of concern. I'm pleased that he acknowledged that the posting of this kind of what I clearly think is racist language that he has agreed with that in the posting of it is a breach of the code of conduct and the code of ethics and integrity of a senator. I'm sorry that he was unable to reach agreement with Senator Beyak in terms of the remedial actions that he proposed. But it's over to the Senate Ethics Committee now, and we will await their report back and recommendations on sanctions if any.

CO: Ok, we'll get to that in a moment. But you did point out that he was to address possible racism and hate speech, but didn't find hate speech, is that right?

FL: Well, he addressed that — although he points out that none of the complainants, which was one of the complainants, he pointed out that we didn't raise that that there was an issue of hate speech. One of my colleagues referred to the comments on the website as hateful. So he delved into that, which I think exemplifies a really thorough look at it even though that wasn't part of our allegation. Our main allegation was that the postings which are on the senator's senate website, hosted by the Senate, paid for by taxpayers dollars, that those postings that contained racist comments were inappropriate. And he found one, that he agreed with that. And two, that it was a breach of the code.

CO: And what he says about those comments is not sort of well this could be interpreted many ways and a bit vague, but here it is. I mean I’ll just read what he concludes, this is from Pierre Legault. He said that the letters referred to Indigenous people as opportunistic, pampered, whiners who are milking the government, exploiting the taxpayer. The letters are rife with stereotypical negative, beliefs, assumptions, and prejudices. They describe Indigenous people as lazy, opportunistic, inept, incompetent, greedy, worthless, and an inferior race. I mean this is not a small thing, is it?

FL: It's not small at all. And it's why so many of us were so appalled when we first came to know about the posting of these letters. And it's why there have been so many people in the public, Indigenous peoples and non-Indigenous peoples, who have been appalled, and who have written in and wanted action. I'm sure they feel this is very slow action, but it is considered. His report, his analysis, is very considered and. At the end of the day, I think it's a very bold condemnation.

CO: Pierre Legault, he again describes the letters he finds them without a doubt racist. But then he also describes conversations he had with Senator Beyak trying to find out what she was intending, why she thought these were acceptable, and if she thought the letters were racist. She said she didn’t, she would not have posted them if she thought they were racist, that she didn't regard it as such. This is an exercise of free speech by Canadians. What would you make of that? What do you make of the comments that Senator beyak gave to Pierre Legault?

FL: Well, fundamentally, I disagree with her interpretation of that. I've had many conversations with Senator Beyak around this, and I know that she holds that belief to be true. I think it speaks to the importance of the recommendation that she didn't accept to perhaps expose herself to some sensitivity training and understanding of Indigenous cultures, and understanding the hurt that these comments bring with them. However, I do know that those are her positions and that she doesn't believe that anything is wrong in the letters that she posted. And I just fundamentally disagree. So does the Senate Ethics Commissioner. What we have to wait now is the review of this report by the Senate Ethics Committee, and their recommendation to the Senate of sanctions, if sanctions, what sanctions, or no sanctions. We have to await that process to unfold.

CO: Mr. Legault is saying that they didn't hold the standards of dignity required of a senator. He proposed that Senator Beyak delete the racist letters from her website, which as you point out, is a website paid for by the taxpayers. That she post a formal apology. And that she complete a cultural sensitivity course with an emphasis on Indigenous issues. She has said no to all three of those — she's refused to do that. What do you make of that refusal?

FL: Well again, because I've spoken with her often, I would expect recommendations to entreat. You know apologize and take the sensitivity training. I expect that she would say no to those. I was shocked that she first said yes, she would take the letters down, and then recanted and said no, she wouldn't. I think at a basic level, a senator submits themselves to these processes because these are the rules we have as a self-governing body. These are the rules we set for ourselves. And if the commissioner comes out with these kinds of findings and says the first very simple thing is well you know they're racist and take them down, and she says no. I find that a profound lack of respect for the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. And it speaks to a stubbornness or almost like living in a bubble in this world in Ottawa that you know we're not subject to these kinds of judgments about our work. So I was I was shocked on that one. And again, we will see what kind of recommendations come from the committee. And you know I can't prejudge what that will be at this point in time.

CO: Alright, we'll be watching. SenatorLankin, thank you.

FL: Thank you so much. Have a good evening.

JD: Frances Lankin is an Independent Senator who filed a complaint against Senator Lynn Beyak. We reached Senator Lankin in Ottawa.

[Music: Pop]

Beto crop circle

Guest: Stan Herd

JD: If you happen to be flying into or out of Austin sometime soon, you'll be treated to a curious sight. It's a portrait of the Democratic Party presidential hopeful, Beto O'Rourke. It's made of mulch and gravel and it's the size of two football fields. Stan Herd is the artist behind the likeness. We reached him near Oklahoma City.

CO: Stan, what kind of reaction are you getting to your Beto crop circle?

STAN HERD: Well, it's really kind of stunned us all. You know I've been at this for 46 years creating earthworks. And I've had some successes and some failures. And this has kind of been unprecedented really. We were on the Seth Meyers TV show last night. And we're getting calls from you know from Canada. So we're a bit amazed by it all. We're not quite sure why? Our smartest guys think that it's because of Beto's popularity, and the fact that this is kind of a positive story in that it's a feel good community comes together around the candidate type thing.

CO: Can you describe what it looks like?

SH: It's this out of a shortgrass prairie that's a mix of grass and clover and different things that have grown up in this prairie along the Colorado River just north of the airport. You know I didn't have a lot to work with quite frankly. And the palette became very favourable to me because I could only take this material down to the bare ground, although the rich red earth there is very much skin colour. And then we added a few organic materials on the top of it, so it was very minimalist.

CO: For people who haven't seen it, it looks… well some have said it looks like Abe Lincoln on the penny. But it's profile of Beto O'Rourke in the middle of a circle, and the bottom says Beto 2020, is that right?

SH: Right. It does look coin-like. And my brother called from New Mexico, and he says you know most presidents that are on coins are no longer around. Is this a good idea? So we've been teasing about you know the bitcoin and now we've got the betocoin. So we'll see what the candidate thinks about that.

CO: How big is this profile?

SH: The image is on two acres. Obviously if you're going to take the time to create something in a field, you want to get as much attention as you can. And we have planes and helicopters and all types of folks flying over all day.

CO: Now, of course, people who know your work know that you have been doing this kind of art for a long time. I think Dan Rather called you the father of crop art to at some point. But why did you want to do Beto O'Rourke in a field in Texas?

SH: You know I've been a lifelong Democrat. My family grew up in southwest Kansas, which is a pretty conservative part of the state. The Great Plains states are more conservative rural agriculture people. My people were also that: seven generations of farmers and agriculture people. But we've been lifelong Democrats, and we've supported Democratic candidates for the long haul. And as somebody who's quite interested in what's going on nationally with what I see as the kind of vitriolic feeling in the country right now, there's a lot of animosity and a lot of enmity, quite frankly. And I just feel like that that Beto O'Rourke has a calming voice. He's got a populist appeal. He's compassionate. He has all of the things that my parents and my teachers and my preachers and my brothers and my family said that you should look for in a leader. You know there's so many good candidates out there, Campbell Harris, and Joe Biden, and just so many wonderful people and so many wonderful women coming to power in the Democratic Party right now. My original intention was to do portraits of six of the new Congresswomen. But when I got to Austin, I kind of got the Bet fever, and I just fell in love with the guy. So I decided to do a throwdown. And we did not you know we didn't get any money from the campaign, we didn't get any money from anybody, we just did it on our own.

CO: But he's also well he's a controversial person in Texas, isn't he? I mean there are people who oppose what he represents in terms of health care, immigration. So why was it important for you to not just have this image in Texas, but well so close to the airport where you know people are going to be seeing it? What did you want to provoke by doing that?

SH: You know historically, I've learned that every other project I try to do something that speaks to my heart as an artist or you know whether it's political or some other issue. I've been creating images of young Indigenous women around the world just back two years from China, creating a giant permanent two acre work. So I think art has the power. And art seen and talked about, and quite frankly interviewed you know from Canada about, has resonance. It becomes you know part of a discourse of what's going on out there. You know the story that I'm trying to tell is that you know the country needs to move back in a better direction. I've met Mr. Trump. I've been in his office twice. I created an image on his property years ago. And I think he's the wrong leader for our country right now, quite frankly. And we need somebody who's is more compassionate, and can reach out to two sides. And I believe Beto reaches to a lot of moderates. I believe he's bringing out a new demographic of women, minority people, and moderate Democrats. And you know certainly you're not going to win the favour of everybody — nobody ever has. You know we've been getting a few a few nasty emails and comments. but compared to the support we're getting. You know it's 100 to 1.

CO: But some Texans are not happy with your crop circle. What are they saying to you?

SH: Well, I think somebody said you know I'm going to bring my dog out to the field, so he can you know have some fun I won't say what they say. You know haters will be haters. You know that's part of the nature if when you stand on stage and sing, you know not everybody is going to applaud. But it shouldn't dissuade you from saying what you need to say. That's what democracy is about.

CO: Alright Stan, well I appreciate hearing the story of this. And maybe some people who are listening will get to see it. And thank you.

SH: Thanks, Carol. Talk to you soon.

CO: Bye-bye.

JD: That was Stan Herd, the artist behind the Beto 2020 earthwork. We reached him near Oklahoma City. For a look at Mr Herd's humungous political work of art in a farm field, check out our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Xylophone]

Donair fight

JD: It certainly won't be the first Halifax donair fight. But it may be the first to end up in front of a judge without a back story of late night drinks. For those who aren't familiar, shame on you, the east coast donair is the sandwich of choice for Haligonians who've had a long night on the town. But the case the Nova Scotia Supreme Court is being asked to hear pitas two donair spice purveyors against one another. They're both promising you can enjoy a donair in the comfort of your home — but they're at odds about who owns the trademark for the distinctive flavouring they sell. Jeff Mahoney is accusing his former partner Johnny Dib of illegally wrapping his seasoning inside a trademark that's too similar to Mr. Mahoney’s own. When the men worked together, they sold a donair spice with the catchy name, 'Donair Spice.' That partnership has long since come dissolved. But Mr. Mahoney has filed court papers insisting that the 'Donair Spice' trademark is his. He argues that the 'Donair Spice' donair spice that he accuses Mr. Dib of selling online is therefore a violation of his donair spice rights. We're sure the case will receive the court's rapt attention.

[Music: Vocalization]

Part two: Nan Goldin, huge meteor

Nan Goldin

Guest: Nan Goldin

JD: Big art institutions usually respond to donations from rich philanthropists with appreciation and fanfare. But, the UK's National Portrait Gallery has just taken the unusual step of refusing a gift worth 1.7 million dollars Canadian. And that's because the money was offered by the Sackler family. They're the owners of Purdue Pharma, the company that's been criticized for its marketing of OxyContin, and that's been accused of profiting from the opioid epidemic. Photographer Nan Goldin has been campaigning against institutions that accept money from the Sacklers. We reached Ms. Goldin New York City.

CO: Ms. Goldin, what was it like when you heard that the National Portrait Gallery had turned down this large donation from the Sackler family?

NAN GOLDIN: It was like woah, yay! Between me and my group. My group is about 12 people, and everyone had that response.

CO: What do you think persuaded the National Portrait Gallery to make this decision?

NG: I know that they were in discussion for a while. They told me in November when they invited me to do a retrospective that they were considering whether or not to take this money. And I told them I wouldn't be able to do the show if they didn’t.

CO: Do you think that was the deciding factor? That you're saying you wouldn't participate in the retrospective if they accepted the money?

NG: No, I wish. I'm not that important. They have a lot of artists to show. I think maybe the fact that I have a loud mouth and I spread the word had some effect.

CO: But you tried to get other museums and galleries to do the same — the MET and the Guggenheim — they didn't. They held their ground. So what is it about the National Portrait Gallery in the United Kingdom that was different?

NG: The man I know there is very courageous and ethical. They believe in good and bad. So they did the right thing. Hopefully, it will have a domino effect. Hopefully, other museums and universities will step up.

CO: Do you explain to people why you and others say it's this donation is a problem that they shouldn't be accepting this money from the Sackler family?

NG: The Sackler family are multi-billionaires, who made their money off the bodies of three hundred thousand people in America. They have a pharmaceutical company that they own privately. They've created and dispensed OxyContin knowing it was highly addictive. And that's where their fortune is from. There 2,000 states, cities, counties and Native courts suing Purdue. But meanwhile, Massachusetts and New York named eight of the Sacklers by name.

COP: I understand because you've spoken publicly about this that this is very personal for you — your relationship with OxyContin the drug that Purdue is producing. Tell us about that?

NG: I was addicted to OxyContin for about four years. I was using massive doses. First, I got it from doctors, and then I went on the black market. And I was in my own personal opioid crisis. So when I got clean two years ago, I realized how widespread this problem was. And that I needed to help other people. There was an article in The New Yorker called “Empire of Pain” that revealed the Sackler family. And it was after that that I decided I had to do something. I thought well, they live in their museums. That's what they care about. But who knows if they even care about that. It's all about reputation washing.

CO: How difficult was it for you to get over your addiction to OxyContin?

NG: You’re never really over an addiction like that. People stay on drugs — on opioids — for years just to avoid withdrawal. Withdrawal is the most painful state besides torture. People will do anything to avoid it. Myself, I waited a few years to go to rehab because I was so frightened of it. I don't know if you know anyone who's ever been through opioid withdrawal, but it's both physical, mental, and spiritual. Your soul turns against you. Every cell of your body turns against you.

CO: I just want to go back to the Sackler family, and they vigorously deny the allegations that they marketed OxyContin irresponsibly. They say that the drug was approved by regulators, prescribed by doctors — as it was for you — and that the family and Purdue Pharma they say doesn't deserve the blame it's getting for the opioid epidemic. What do you say to them?

NG: That's completely ingenuous. They are very responsible for the opioid crisis.

CO: But they are they are contesting that. And they say the allegations are unproven.

NG: That remains to be seen. There is you know hundreds of documents that have been exposed what is proof. All you have to do is follow the stories about how they marketed it to doctors. Doctors aren’t giving this credibility. Doctors you know gave up their oath.

CO: On the issue of the money, you know this is a one-point-seven million dollars Canadian that they were going to give the National Portrait Gallery in the UK, and they've given money elsewhere. Why should those institutions not take the money? I mean it's difficult for galleries museums to get funding. They need to turn to private enterprise, to private individuals. Why shouldn't they take the money?

NG: There's a lot of dirty money out there. Most museums have board members or trustees who are making weapons or involved in mass incarceration. There's a lot that's being revealed. It's a time of transparency. But a place that's a repository of culture, of learning, of the highest, noblest endeavors that a man should not have their walls dirty by people laundering their money. You know it's one thing for their money to be made in livestock or wherever people make money in gold. It's another thing to make money off hundreds of thousands of human beings. So that name is trying to show them as philanthropists, when in fact, their name is synonymous with the opioid crisis now. That reflects on the museum that they've become complicit in that.

CO: But why then if that's the case, why shouldn't they give back to their community, to their society through these kinds of donations?

NG: Well, of course, they should be. The lawsuits they're going to try to get their money away from them and dispense it to the places that have been affected and to grassroots organizations who are working with the communities. Of course, that's what they should do. But we don't want them involved in setting up any kind of rehabilitation rehab centres because they'll find a way to make a profit off it.

CO: Nan Goldin, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

NG: Okay, thanks.

CO: Bye.

NG: Bye-bye.

JD: We reached photographer Nan goldin in New York City.

[Music: Country]

Huge meteor & FOA

Guest: Peter Brown

JD: If we told you that a huge space rock, roughly the size of a two-car garage, was hurtling towards the earth at a speed of 32 kilometres per second, what would you do first? Your answer doesn't really matter because it's already hit us… sort of. Peter Brown is a professor at Western University. He studies meteors and asteroids and recently revealed what's being called the Bering Sea Airburst. It's the third largest fireball on record, to explode in the earth's atmosphere. We reached Professor Brown in London, Ontario.

CO: Professor Brown, first of all, give us a sense of the scale of this meteor?

PETER BROWN: Well, this is quite large. About 10 metres across, and it came into the atmosphere with the energy of a small nuclear weapon — releasing about 175 kilotons of energy.

CO: Well, so what does that mean? What actually happened when it entered the atmosphere?

PB: Yeah, so this object was moving about 30 kilometres per second. So many, many times the speed of sound. And when it hit the upper atmosphere, it got very hot. The object itself started coming apart. And over a period of just a few seconds, it released all of its energy right into the atmosphere, causing a very big explosion.

CO: How big.

PB: So it was about ten times the size of the explosion related to the atomic bomb that dropped on Hiroshima in World War 2. So very large.

CO: It's almost impossible to imagine. How was such a large explosion created by entering the atmosphere?

PB: It's just the object is moving so fast, it has so much energy, and the atmosphere acts like a giant break. So you can imagine you've got this thing moving incredibly fast, it receives all this friction from the atmosphere, and all that heat energy has to go somewhere. And that's what causes the explosion.

CO: And did we know about this? Did we hear it?

PB: Now, where this event occurred over the Bering Sea, so it's basically open ocean. So no one really noticed it at the time. It was only a few months later when we were looking through older data that we noticed this really odd explosion that sort of stood out in data related to microphones that we have all over the globe. They detect all sorts of things like volcanoes, manmade explosions, and of course, occasionally fireballs.

CO: And this data that you are looking at, what was that data for?

PB: So that data is information that's collected by the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty. They're listening for any sort of explosions in the atmosphere. And, of course, their interest is in trying to detect any nuclear explosions.

CO: This happened in December. So when did you actually know that there had been this impact?

PB: Yeah, so I actually had occasionally go and look through these event lists just to see what has happened sort of day to day. And I actually didn't get around to doing that until sort of March this year. So it was really a couple Fridays ago — March 8th. I was looking through this list and noticed there was this really unusual event that had been detected by almost all the microphones around the globe in the Bering Sea. And that's when we first thought maybe a fireball was present.

CO: At that moment when you saw that, how did you react?

PB: Well, this was the first time I'd ever seen a signal of this size since the Chelyabinsk fireball back in 2013. So I was pretty surprised. I wasn't expecting to see this size of an explosion again in my career.

CO: And what did you think it was when you saw it?

PB: Well, just given where it had occurred, and the fact that so many of these infrasound stations saw it, I was pretty certain it had to be a fireball. And indeed, just a few hours later, there was a message put out on one of NASA's websites talking about U.S. government censors having detected an explosion that day in the Bering Sea with an energy of about 175 kilotons, so confirming what the infrasound stations had seen.

CO: And they knew that there could be nothing else but something like a meteorite colliding with the atmosphere, right?

PB: Absolutely. Yeah, both the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty sensors U.S. government sensors are able to distinguish natural from manmade events.

CO: How often does this happen? Because it’s alarming isn't the thought that this could collide with our atmosphere. How often does this occur?

PB: It's on average an object this size — about 10 metres in size — hits the Earth every five to 10 years. What was a little unusual about this object is it was moving a bit faster than a normal asteroid hitting the atmosphere. And so the amount of energy it had was actually quite a bit more than a normal 10 metre sized asteroid. So objects this energetic only hit the Earth maybe once every 25 years.

CO: When was the last one?

PB: So the last big one, of course, would've been Chelyabinsk in February 2013. And it was about two to two-and-a-half times as much energy as this one in the Bering Sea.

CO: Tell us what you recall about that day?

PB: Yeah, well Chelyabinsk was remarkable because we had this huge fireball that occurred very near a large urban centre namely Chelyabinsk, which is a city of about a million people.

CO: In Russia we should point out.

PB: Yes, Chelyabinsk in Russia. And what's unusual was the shockwave that reached the ground was so intense that it actually broke lots of windows in the urban area. And this event was energetic enough if there had been windows below it, probably would have also destroyed those windows. But, of course, being the Bering Sea, there were no windows.

CO: When we spoke with people on the ground in Chelyabinsk on that day, and it was an extraordinary story because nobody knew what it was. And, of course, they were very alarmed, and all kinds of thoughts about well nuclear reactors because they've known of potential disasters before. And no one knew what it was for some time. How long does it take before you know that you're dealing with a meteor?

PB: In the case of Chelyabinsk, there were so many videos from dash cams of people who were driving around the city at the time. And just from what appeared on YouTube, we could right away recognize that this was a typical fireball in the sense that it lasted quite a long time. And we also were able to look at the sound information — the same sort of infrasound waves that we used for the Bering Sea event. And that also told us that it was a big fireball, but nevertheless a fireball, and not something nuclear.

CO: Is it possible one of these fireballs can actually hit Earth or hit the populated area?

PB: Well, absolutely. In the case of Chelyabinsk, for example, although most of the material put up high in the atmosphere, there was quite a lot of meteorites that actually made it to the ground — many thousands of meteorites that made it to the ground. In fact, a 600 kilo piece broke through ice on a lake not too far to the south and west of Chelyabinsk. For these asteroids that are 10 or 20 metres in size, there are so many millions of these that we really have only a tiny number that we've ever found and catalogued their orbits. So the odds are the next one that's going to hit us will be something we don't actually detect ahead of time. But the telescope surveys that are looking for asteroids are getting better and better, and there's a good chance the geometry is good. An object like this could be detected a few days or even a week in advance, giving people advanced warning of where this may actually impact. The good news is we've catalogued and found just about every single one of the asteroids bigger than a kilometre in size that come close to the Earth — more than 95 per cent of them. So we're pretty confident in the next hundred years. We're not going to have any large asteroid impacts.

CO: Alright, I’m going to take you at your word.

PB: Absolutely, I appreciate that.

CO: Professor Brown, thank you.

PB: My pleasure.

JD: Peter Brown is a professor of physics and astronomy at Western University. We reached him in London, Ontario. As you heard him mention there, back in February 2013, another large meteor thundered through the atmosphere over the Russian city of Chelyabinsk. It happened just as residents were beginning their work day — and as Professor Brown mentioned, the explosion was caught on dashcam videos. On that day, Carol spoke to translator Polina Zolotarevskaya — who saw it happen. Here is part of that interview, from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

POLINA ZOLOTAREVSKAYA: The first thing I saw was a very bright light that lighted our rooms. And it was kind of unnatural that people were surprised, and rushed to their windows to see what was happening that was first. Then the fireball jumped in the sky, and it seemed that it was just in front of our windows.

CO: What did it look like?

PZ: It looked like a [indecipherable]. Which was kind of like a rocket flying into the direction kind of out of city. And a very wide stripe in the sky — not very ordinary. So I did my best to describe it.

CO: Not very ordinary at all. Did you see it land? Did you see where it hit?

PZ: I did not see it land. And I believe that it was too far away. I believe it was many kilometers from the place where I actually have my office. And they say that it landed in the middle of the lake.

CO: What did you hear?

PZ: We heard a very loud bang, and we kind of felt that explosion wave. And it was very loud. And that explosion wave was very strong.

JD: From February, 2013, Carol in conversation with Polina Zolotarevskaya about seeing a metor streak out of the sky near Chelyabinsk, Russia.

[Music: Strings]

Haunted highboy

JD: Any reputable thrift store lets you know if the second-hand item you're looking at has a flaw. Maybe there's a little sign telling you the "L" sticks on that typewriter. Or that vintage turntable needs a stylus. And, of course, the more expensive the thing is, the more it's incumbent on store management to let you know about any problem. So full marks to the ReStore in Salisbury, North Carolina. Someone donated a bedroom suite in great condition that would fetch a bundle. But the donor disclosed an issue — so the store dutifully shared it with prospective buyers. The sign next to the suite read as follows. Quote, "1 thousand dollars — 2-piece bedroom suite. Queen canopy bed and highboy chest of drawers. Handcarved in the 1950s." Unquote. Perfect! I'll take it… oh, wait, what's this written underneath? Quote: "Please note: previous owner reports that the highboy is haunted. He reports continuous nightmares for he and his wife while it was in their room. He also reports that the dogs would not stop barking at it." Unquote. Well, in spite of that, last week, two men paid full price for both pieces. The director of store operations told The Charlotte Observer, that they're regular customers who said they were intrigued, but don't believe in haunted furniture. Let's hope that works out for everyone. And that the bargain hunters don't become the bargain haunted.

[Music: Sci-fi thriller theme]

Part three: Budget folo, Joe Fafard obit

Canada Reads: Max Eisen

JD: CBC's annual battle of the books is just days away. On Monday each Canada Reads panelists will begin making the case for their book to be picked as the one that every Canadians should read. This year's theme is 'One Book To Move You.' And science journalist Ziya Tong says her choice does just that. She's picked 'By Chance Alone', a memoir from Max Eisen. Mr. Eisen was just a teenager when he and his entire family were taken to concentration camps in World War Two. He was the only one who survived. In this reading, Max Eisen, now 90 years old, takes us back to 1940.

SOUNDCLIP

MAX EISEN: in 1940, the government posted more edicts in town specifically targeting the Jewish community. Jews were no longer allowed to use radios, and we were ordered to take our crystal sets to Town Hall and relinquish them. Without radios, we were cut off from the outside world, and we could receive our news only from government-censored newspapers. An edict that particularly affected my family barred Jews from selling alcohol and tobacco. My father lost his main source of income when his business was confiscated without any compensation. And all his merchandise was handed over to the authorities — along with a key to his establishment. Another repressive edict decreed that all Jewish families be photographed by the police, and we were certain those photographs were then used as a surveillance tool. At school, we had weekly conduct drills with a military officer. Jewish students would always place at the end of the column, and need to carry shovels and rakes while the non-Jewish students gathered wooden guns at the front. Upon arrival at the shooting range, the Jewish students had to clean, rake, and shovel the area while others perform drills with the wooden guns. Marching through the town, I was acutely aware of being a second class citizen, and I dreaded this humiliating weekly session at school. In 1940, all Jewish males from ages 18 to 45, married and single, were sent away to labour battalions. My father, my uncle, and all the others were taken to work in mines for us and military installations on the eastern front. They had to pack a backpack with winter clothes and boots. And they paid their own fare to their designated postings, leaving their families to fend for themselves. This, of course, was a physical and economic hardship to the entire Jewish community — including my mother my grandparents. Suddenly, my mother was a single parent of three children, and she did her best to meet all the demands on her. We children also had to pitch in and do work that was normally done by adults. The whole Jewish community had to support the needs of its members, and provide the necessities of life, particularly for destitute families.

JD: That was Toronto author Max Eisen reading from his memoir 'By Chance Alone'. His book will be defended in Canada Reads by Ziya Tong. You can catch the debates on CBC’s numerous platforms beginning Monday.

[Music: Ambient]

Budget folo

Guest: Kevin Page

JD: It was tough to tell on Parliament Hill today that any federal budget had dropped. In Question Period, the opposition hammered away at the Liberal government over SNC Lavalin. And then the Liberals saw one of their own break ranks and leave. Celina Caesar-Chavannes is an MP from Ontario who already announced she isn't running for re-election. And today, she said she has left the Liberal caucus. She'd been hinting on Twitter for weeks that she was unhappy with the Prime Minister's leadership. And she was emotional when she spoke to CBC's Chris Rands as she left the West Block today.

SOUNDCLIP

CELINA CAESAR-CHAVANNES: I just think it was important to you know I understand that there is a lot of people that supported me that were disappointed in what I did do the interview that I did. And I think that it's important to understand that you know that while I support the values and the principles of the Liberal Party that it might be good since that that message did go out that I sit as an independent for the rest of the term that I’m here.

CHRIS RANDS: And what's your message to the people of Whitby?

CCC: My message to the people of Whitby is that you know I love representing them, I don't want to cause them any more grief, especially the ones who are very strong liberal supporters. I don't want to cause them that grief. And so I think that it's probably the best thing for me to do is to just sit as an independent.

CR: And are you and the prime minister okay now, or do you still have issues?

CCC: I don’t have any comment. I just want to speak to my constituents in Whitby. Thank you.

JD: That was MP Celina Caesar-Chavannes, speaking about why she left the Liberal caucus. Meanwhile, however, some have ignored the drama on the Hill, burying their heads instead in… the budget. Kevin Page is the former parliamentary budget officer. We reached Mr. Page in Ottawa.

CO: Mr. Page, the Conservatives have called this a corruption cover up budget, referring to SNC Lavalin. The NDP says it's simply a letdown. How would you describe this federal budget?

KEVIN PAGE: I don't think it's a cover up. And I don't think it's a letdown either. So it's definitely a pre-election budget. There's a modest amount of spending. The government is kind of holding to its fiscal track so the deficit declines over the next five years. And you know I think what's a little unusual in this is that the money is spread over many,, many different measures. And so in that sense it does look like a pre-election budget. But I don't think it's big enough to kind of to take the focus away from SNC Lavalin in parliament.

CO: But there are, as you point out, so many initiatives — about 150 new spending measures in this budget — and it does seem to be aimed at who might be potential Liberal voters, doesn't it? Looking up from millennials and for seniors, which are two areas that the liberals hope that they can attract voters. So what's in it for them?

KP: I think people were struggling yesterday when they were reading the budget to figure out what really is there a narrative? Because there is no big initiative like you've alluded to. But I think to the extent that there's like an overarching narrative it might be dealing with people's concerns about the future. So just uncertainty or fear about the future. So if you're a millennial, and you know you're worried about getting into the housing market, or you're worried about dealing with school debt, we've got something for you. You know again a senior, as you alluded to, and things are tight, we're going to strengthen the benefit. But again, it's not a large amount of money if you kind of scale things up the amount of money that's in this budget over six years in terms of new measures and how big the economy is or how big these sectors are. It would have to rely on a kind of nudging people to do things, as opposed to really making from a balance sheet perspective just you know really clear that you need to move in a different way.

CO: But it's not a balanced budget, and that's what the Conservatives are pointing to. And they're also pointing to the fact that the money — the extra money — that could be put into paying down debt is now being used the extra windfall that Morneau got he is using to spend and then spend more than that. So is this something that should alarm those who watch to see how Canada is dealing with its accumulated deficits?

KP: I don't think our fiscal situation is anywhere near like in an alarming sense. Nothing is really alarming in the sense that we you know if we had to face some type of economic struggle or shock in the next year or two like we definitely would be in a position to do so. But like to your point, we're adding to the stock of debt, and interest rates are going up and that's usually kind of a toxic mix. We’re definitely giving up space for future generations to deal with issues. So the issue becomes we’re running these deficits, are we getting value for money? Are these really good spending? And that's a fair debate come the fall.

CO: But the question is that that many are concerned with as to whether or not this prepares us for a possible recession that might be around the corner. Some argue that we're already into a recession. This is a budget that prepares us for that?

KP: No, no I'd say that it's definitely a blind spot in this budget. I think people are a little bit alarmed. But the slowdown in the economy at the end of 2018. If you know people that look at these sorts of data they look at you know how the economy's doing. Certainly the good sector, which includes mining and manufacturing, utilities, and construction it's almost it's virtually is in a recession on a year over year. basis. Actually what's been really strong and I think why the Government's found these additional revenues this is employment has generally been strong right through to the end of 2018. But there's nothing in this text, Carol, in the budget text that really deals with some of the concerns that are out there in the global community and these international institutions like the World Bank and IMF that worry about trade tensions. If we did find ourselves in a recession, it could be I think from a political perspective, electorally anyway, it could it could really hurt the Liberals because they would you know they've truly as you point out would be blindsided by it.

CO: Just maybe give it a comment or two about the record itself coming to this point with a Liberal Government three-and-a-half years into it. How have they performed? What have we seen that we have gained? What's changed by virtue of this the Liberals being in power?

KP: Definitely the growth numbers for 2016, 17, and 18 are much stronger. So like the economy is still growing at a reasonable clip on a year over year basis. The unemployment rate is below 6 per cent. And I think that the Liberals will say look we contributed to that. Obviously the world economy growth contributed that. The United States is also growing and has picked up considerably over the past few years. But I think that the Liberals will point to that we put money into what they call the middle class even though they not defined it. But certainly the child benefit put thousands of dollars into families. And you know that money got spent. And so that would have boosted consumption fairly significantly. So will that buy them a lot of votes come the fall? Maybe not. But I mean it's definitely some of those issues we needed to deal with. And I think the income distribution issue inequality it's a big issue not just in Canada but across the world. And you know they've certainly highlighted it.

CO: Two issues in dealing with industry. One is that a commitment to be able to get petroleum products to tidewater. We have a four-point-five billion dollar pipeline or a potential pipeline that we now own as Canadians. Forced to get a renewed NAFTA a new agreement with United States — not ratified yet. Those two things what affect do they have on the Canadian economy in the coming couple of years?

KF: Yeah, I think not being able to get energy products to market you know dealing with tariff issues on steel and aluminum and you know and not seeing the final signatures on NAFTA. I think it does create this environment where business will say I'm not prepared to kind of invest in any big way right now. So time will tell whether or not it was a good investment for the government to buy the Trans Mountain Pipeline. My guess is that we probably will see signatures on NAFTA. I think that people's maybe we have their fingers and toes crossed that these tariffs will kind of go away. So I mean some of these headwinds on investment could turn to tailwinds, and maybe that helps the Liberals to some degree if that happens between now and the election.

CO: We will leave it there. And, of course, we'll be watching. Mr. Page, thank you.

KP: Thank you very much.

JD: Kevin Page is the president and CEO of the Institute of Fiscal Studies and Democracies at the University of Ottawa.

[Music: Indie rock]

Ralph Goodale

JD: The funerals for people killed in the mosque shootings in Christchurch, New Zealand have begun. Fifty people, of course, were gunned down at mosques in that city. Now police in New Zealand say they believe the shooting suspect, an Australian man, was on his way to a third location when he was arrested. The reasons behind the shooting are clearly on the minds of Canadian politicians. The accused killer sent a manifesto to journalists and polticians, which appears to embrace white nationalist, and anti-immigrant, ideology. Today, Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale was asked about those attitudes by the CBC's Katie Simpson.

SOUNDCLIP

KATIE SIMPSON: Given the events in New Zealand, how significant is the concern about that kind of racism in that kind of violence in Canada?

RALPH GOODALE: It's a serious concern, and it has been a growing concern. The most recent public threat report, for example, listed the recent examples of this kind of abhorrent behaviour that has cost Canadian lives in the mosque, for example, along Younge Street with the van attack, and so forth. These toxic attitudes strike fear and very legitimate fear in the minds and the hearts of people, and we need to ensure that that we take all the safety and security measures that are necessary and appropriate to keep people safe. But fundamentally, you have to attack this problem at its very root, and show that there is no tolerance in Canada. There is no there is no room in Canada for those kinds of hateful attitudes and behaviours.

KS: It's been a couple of days since the attack now. Is there anything specific that Canada is doing to assist New Zealand, whether it's some sort of support or with the investigation?

RG: The two countries, because we are Five Eyes allies, have a very active intelligence sharing and cooperation arrangement. All of the Five Eyes countries have been assisting New Zealand in in providing information and pursuing issues and leads in that sorts of things just to make sure that we're giving every measure of intelligence and police support to the New Zealand authorities, so that they can complete a full picture of exactly what happened. All of us need to benefit from that, so that we can learn all the facts from the New Zealand experience, and then make all of our countries safer.

JD: That was Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale in Ottawa earlier today.

[Music: Ambient]

Student bus driver

JD: A grade 10 student in Hamilton, Ontario went from school bus passenger — to unexpected school bus driver on Monday. Aidan Gilmore was sitting on the bus on the first day back to school after March break, when he suddenly had to think quickly. He told the story to CBC reporter Adam Carter.

SOUNDCLIP

AIDAN GILMORE: Well, what happened was it was just like a normal day, right? It was the school day after March break, right? So we're all a little tired, right? And I sat in my front seat near by the bus driver as usual. And I noticed that the bus was starting to go on a curve towards the side of the road. And then I looked over, and I realized that the bus driver was having convulsions — he was having a seizure. So I got out of my seat and I knew I had to do something. So I took the wheel of the bus, and I gently steered it over into a nearby swell — it's like a ditch. And the bus stopped in there. And then I proceeded to unbuckle the seat belt from him, so that others could help get him free.

ADAM CARTER: So what went through your mind?

AG: It was mostly thoughts of just like you know I have to do something to like you know to rectify the situation, right? So I just I thought you know what if there was any cars behind us, I didn't want a bus to suddenly stop, snd then the cars would get injured in the process. So I decided to take the bus like off the road for safety reasons. I mean it's mostly just like adrenaline that goes through you at that moment.

JD: That was a Hamilton, Ontario high school student by the name of Aidan Gilmore, a very quick-thinking Ontario high school student. Talking about stepping in to stop his school bus after his driver collapsed at the wheel.

[Music: Piano]

Joe Fafard obit

Guest Victor Cicansky

JD: When you see a cow in the middle of downtown Toronto, thank Joe Fafard. Mr. Fafard is the sculptor from Saskatchewan who made art out of the seemingly ordinary. Mr. Fafard died at his home in Lumsden, Saskatchewan on Saturday. He was 76 years old. His work earned him all kinds of honours, including the Order of Canada. But it all started in rural Saskatchewan.

SOUNDCLIP

PETER GZOWSKI: How much of a farm kid were you?

JOE FAFARD: I was really a farm kid.

PG: You’re one of 12 children.

JF: I'm the sixth of 12 children — six boys and six girls. And I grew up on this multifaceted farm where we did all kinds of raising of animals and grain and stuff like that. And my father was also the postmaster and the general storekeeper. And so we had plenty of things going on around us that kept us busy all the time. We milked many cows, we fed many pigs and sheep, and we had horses, and lots of machinery. And I really enjoyed it. And I really got a lot out of my childhood. And I'm still sort of gleaning from my childhood all those ideas that I keep working with when I'm working in that particular medium of agriculture. But I also get a lot you know when I'm working with people things of those experiences because in a small community like that we got to observe people very closely. Since we had the general store, we could always watch them come in and jaw and talk and whatnot. Tell stories, tell lies, and as little kids we were invisible, so you could just sit around and listen.

JD: That was Joe Fafard speaking with Peter Gzowski on CBC's "Morningside" in 1988. Mr. Fafard stayed in Saskatchewan for most of his life, which is where he met Victor Cicansky. We reached Mr. Cicansky in Regina.

CO: Victor, first of all, I'm sorry for your loss.

VICTOR CICANSKY: Yeah, it's a big hole. You know Joe has really been an important person. I mean Joe and I have been buddies since 1970, when we were both you know much younger and both professors at the University of Regina. You know we both had long hair and full beards.

CO: People thought they would congratulate you on his work and vice versa. You sign each other's catalogues.

VC: Yeah, I'd walk into Safeway, for example, and someone would come up to me and say you know joe, I've just been in Ottawa, and I saw your horses at the National Gallery, and I think they're lovely. And you know I’d always said well thank you very much. That's a lovely compliment, and I'll pass it on to Joe.

CO: His wife Alice was saying over the weekend, this is what she wrote. Joe died the way he lived: simply, unpretentiously, in complete serenity. With a twinkle in his eye, but above all, with the full love of his family and friends. Is that the Joe Fafard you know?

VC: You know I was there just about two days before he died, and he was lying in bed, and he was sort of whispering. And it looked like he wasn't too long for this world. So you know I took his hand, and held it and bent over, and said hey Joe, remember. And I made a little comment about some funny things that had happened between us, and he had kind of smiled. And then someone was playing a video — a French-Canadian guy was singing a French song and with his guitar, and Joe got up, and he was singing. I wasn't there, but you know I saw the video, so bent over with Joe. And I held his hand. And I said Joe, you know all the years I’ve known you, I didn’t know you could sing. And he said you know what? I would have been embarrassed if you were there.

CO: Lots of Canadians love Joe Fafard’s work, but they don't know that it's Joe's do they? Because the kids are playing on them, people are admiring them, taking pictures with them. He's so well-known isn't he to people who probably don't even know whose art it is.

VC: Well, the work is familiar. It's something they recognize. You know it's not an abstract piece of work. It's a horse, it's a cow, it's a sheep, it's a goat, it's a pig, or whatever.

CO: They’re so much fun, aren’t they? They're so approachable. He calls it his medium of agriculture in that clip with Peter Gzowski. He knew animals, and he had the respect but he also had a sense of humour about it, didn't he?

VC: Well, he did. And you know that's what he captures in the work. And I think that's what people get excited about when they see you know a cow or a horse. And they look at it and say holy moly this thing really looks real. you know? It looks like it's going to start walking.

CO: He also had a lot of work that maybe people didn't see as much. But just it's all over the world and people's collections, isn't it? And those are the sculptures he did of people that were often painted and quite amusing and quite well just kind of startling sometimes, weren't they? Can you describe some of that work for us?

VC: Well, he lived in small towns. He talked about it and Peters Gzowski’s interview. Snd you know when you lived in tents, for example. One of his first shows was you know a show of people who lived lives in the town, as well as some of his animals. And it was you know like the greengrocer sitting on a chair next to his counter with you know all the products that he sold. Those are familiar to people in small towns. Then, of course, when he's done you know nature people like Chretien or you know people like David Suzuki or other people, you know people recognize those. And he has a gift to create those memories in people's minds and to excite them.

CO: What do you make of his self-portraits — the ones he did of himself?

VC: Well, I think they’re good self-portraits you know even the ones that he did you know just recently. They don't have the same sense of humour. You know they're there about Joe you know looking into the future. What future is there, you know? Is this it for me? Is it my time to transition and to travel the path that many other people have already passed? And I think they're excellent — they are excellent pieces of work.

CO: Does it make you sad to see this is last works of his — those self-portraits when he had cancer?

VC: No, you know the last piece he did was a work of Picasso. He's done a lot of portraits of Picasso. That's one of his favourite artists. And so he was working on between you know taking chemo and going through the process of trying to deal with the cancer when he felt good he was working in the studio creating this portrait of Picasso. He's sitting on a chair backwards with his arms on the back of the chair you know looking out into the future. And it's an excellent piece. You know he was committed to his work, and worked right to the end.

CO: You know he stayed in rural Saskatchewan his whole life. I know he traveled quite a bit, and you were a road buddy of his a number of times. But he wanted to capture what was what he called the art, or that small town life where he said that people were jawing or lying. Why do you think he stayed with that as his art moved onto the international stage?

VC: Well, that was his life. I mean every artist will paint what's profound in their experience of life you know whether they're painting Mt. St. Victoire or whether they're you know they're painting landscapes or you know like Van Gogh. For Joe, his background was on a farm — farm animals. That's what his work was about. And you know what he's even made a potato, and he was expressing his background, and the importance of you know life in the rural areas and in small towns.

CO: Well Victor, he will be much missed by many people, but the art is fabulous, and it will live on. And I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

VC: Thank you. Bye

CO: Bye.

JD: Victor Cicansky was a longtime friend of sculptor Joe Fafard. Mr. Fafard died on Saturday. He was 76 years old.

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March 20, 2019 episode transcript

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