Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2019

The AIH Transcript for March 5, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight...

CO: Party crasher. As Prime Minister Trudeau deals with losses in the Liberal cabinet, former Deputy Prime Minister Sheila Copps argues that Jody Wilson-Raybould is putting her own interests before the survival of the government.

JD: Black-in-white intentions. How a black civil rights leader managed to assume leadership of one of the largest and oldest neo-Nazi organizations in the United States -- so he could destroy it from within.

CO: Priceless find. After being unceremoniously dumped in a thrift store donation bin in Alberta, a ceremonial Blackfoot headdress is recovered and will be returned to its rightful home.

JD: Exploring the 'if' in his pontificate. The Vatican prepares to open the archives on the papacy of Pius the 12th, considered the most controversial pontiff in history due to his actions -- or lack thereof -- during the Second World War.

CO: He may be small, but he's standing tall. Howard The Gnome of Nanoose Bay, British Columbia, holds the Guinness record for the world's largest gnome -- but if a new home isn't found for the gnome, he may be torn down.

JD: And egging them on with all they've got. A team of scientists at the University of Toronto create a "sperm obstacle course" to determine the best specimens for in-vitro fertilization. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that is at its best when it's swimming upstream.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: A team of scientists at the University of Toronto create a "sperm obstacle course" to determine the best specimens for in-vitro fertilization

SNC: Sheila Copps

Guest: Sheila Copps

JD: Her former cabinet colleague, Jane Philpott, says she's lost it. But Chrystia Freeland has it. And it's total. I am talking about confidence in the leadership of Justin Trudeau. Today, speaking in Longueil, Quebec, the Minister of Foreign Affairs declared hers was quote, "absolute." She made that declaration one day of course after the resignation of her colleague Jane Philpott -- the second senior female minister to quit in just a few weeks. Reporters wanted to know whether the Prime Minister was having problems with powerful women. Here's some of what Minister Freeland had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: When it comes to working with the prime minister as a woman -- I have found him to be absolutely supportive. He is a feminist as a prime minister. And he's a feminist as a boss. Something that I have personally appreciated which I think not all working mothers can say is how unequivocally the prime minister has been supportive for me personally of the fact that I'm a mother. And I really appreciate that. My kids really appreciate it. Obviously I have been speaking about the current situation with my kids and that's one element they asked me specifically to mention.

JD: That was Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland speaking this afternoon in Longueil, Quebec. Sheila Copps was the Deputy Prime Minister in the Liberal cabinet of Jean Chretien. We reached Ms. Copps in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico.

CO: Ms. Copps you have said that Justin Trudeau needs to lance the boil inside his caucus. What do you mean by that?

SHEILA COPPS: Well I think the course of the last two weeks you've had two ministers who have come out and basically said that they have no confidence in the government. These are not people who really believe they can follow Justin Trudeau's leadership. So it really doesn't make sense for them to stay in caucus. And Jane Philpott -- when she resigned -- she sort of set out the challenge that there are ethics and there's cabinet and then there are bigger issues. And I would say to her that in the case of the caucus it's untenable for other people to be able to speak in caucus because with the two of you so offside the government and with the public mud-dragging that you've taken the prime minister through -- how will people feel free to speak internally.

CO: So you feel they should be tossed from caucus?

SC: Yes I do. I believe they can stay in the party. I know Jody Wilson-Raybould's father -- a couple of weeks ago -- mused about Jody Wilson-Raybould taking down the government, and her running as prime minister. So maybe that's part of [inaudible]. I don't know. I just don't understand their endgame. And I think Mr. Trudeau needs to be tougher and maybe crack the whip a little bit. I know that's not the new way. Everybody's all supposed to be nicey-nicey, but sometimes in politics you have to go beyond nicey-nicey.

CO: But isn't it too late -- I mean at this point? He should have done that much earlier.

SC: In fact the longer that the thing goes the more it'll become too late for him.

CO: What do you mean by that it's possible that it's too late for Mr. Trudeau?

SC: Well I think if the thing keeps going on and on, it's doing big damage to his brand. Most people don't understand the intricacies of the whole thing and it could cost him the election. So he's got to do something, and he's got to be decisive, and he's got to do it fairly soon because even though he still has -- I mean six months in politics is an eternity -- but nonetheless the clock is ticking towards the next election. They have completely controlled the agenda from the very beginning. Jody Wilson-Raybould has said something to the effect that she's not allowed to speak about why she resigned from Veterans Affairs. Once she's no longer the Attorney General, she is not covered by solicitor-client privilege, so she can say whatever she wants. It seems like she and Jane Philpott have certainly been working together on this for some time. I don't know what their endgame is -- but I think the prime minister cannot just simply make kind of a nice face when in reality they're killing the chances for the party. And I think he's got to stand up there and say that.

CO: Let's go back to what originally begins this. Because she said in her statements -- Jody Wilson-Raybould said -- for four months she experienced a consistent and sustained efforts by many people in the government to seek to politically interfere in an inappropriate effort to secure a deferred prosecution for the corporation SNC-Lavalin. A pretty serious charge, isn't it?

SC: But she also said -- if you actually listen to what she said -- she said she received the notice from the prosecutor -- which was not unanimous by the way, it was a split view -- she received that notice in early September. And she had her meeting with the prime minister on the 17th of September -- less than a week later. And she said to the committee that she had made her decision before she met with the prime minister on the 17th of September. That's why when Trudeau met with her and when other people met with her they reinforced the fact that look is there another way that we can try and square the circle because there are lots of people's jobs at stake. I'm a member of parliament -- and frankly for her to say before the committee that as a member of parliament you shouldn't speak about your riding I don't know -- it is obvious that she's never served in the trenches in politics. She came in, she became immediately the attorney general, she is a star. And she doesn't really like to listen other people including the prime minister. And I actually wrote a column a month ago saying that I thought he made a mistake in firing her or in demoting her -- but when I saw her performance before the Justice Committee it was obvious that she's not listening to anyone.

CO: You said elsewhere that she has a victim narrative that she seems to be pursuing.

SC: Not only does she have a victim narrative, but she keeps saying that she cannot speak on things -- nobody is stopping her from stating why she quit Veterans Affairs or why she accepted and then quit. There's no limitation on what she can say. I mean we've all resigned at different times in our lives and people can speak. We live in a democracy. There's no lawyer lawyering her up -- she's the one that lawyered herself up right away, and then decided to choose the moment. So she gets invited to speak to the cabinet which is incredibly, I thought, very generous of the cabinet after she just quit. And the story that comes out is oh well she was left waiting for two hours while they decided whether they let her in or not. Well I think sometimes you're offering her a floor that allows her to tease the story out week by week -- and Jane Philpott is the second thread in the teasing.

CO: You as a woman cabinet minister -- woman in politics -- it was bruising. And I watched you over those years and I know from reading what you've written and what you've said about how difficult that was. At some level can you appreciate what that pressure must have felt like for her?

SC: Oh absolutely. There's a huge amount of pressure. I remember -- I mean without going into the details -- when we were in the middle of the [inaudible] I got a phone call at midnight from Raymond Chretien who was the Canadian Ambassador to Washington basically telling me get that off and get this thing fixed. He also happened to be the nephew of the prime minister. So I know pressure on files -- but when you're in cabinet -- when you're in opposition for a long time and you build up your political skills and you kind of take a few whacks -- when you get into cabinet you know it's not going to be an easy ride. This was not an easy ride and the first time that they felt some pressure -- the thing that really turned me off was when she told the Justice Committee that I made my decision before I took the meeting with the prime minister. She'd already decided. So she's not willing to listen anybody. And unfortunately when you're in a cabinet you're there at the grace of everybody else getting elected and you're also there at the pleasure of the boss who is the prime minister.

CO: You said that you think that Mr. Trudeau should get tougher -- but the suggestions that what is coming in the next day or so is some kind of statement of contrition, that he has to be more contrite and take ownership.

SC: I wouldn't be contrite. He hasn't done a single thing wrong. And in fact when Gerald Butts stepped aside he basically said that in his statement. And I did write a column saying I think had there been 9,000 Aboriginal jobs involved in her decision she would have viewed it differently. And that's why you have to hear colleagues out. You can't just come and say oh I'm not doing this and I'm not talking to anybody and you can't talk to me -- oh my god 11 people have called me, Heavens to Betsy. 11 people is nothing in politics. Usually you get about 11 calls an hour.

CO: Ms. Copps I appreciate speaking with you.

SC: Thank you so much Carol. I appreciate being asked. Thanks. Bye bye now.

CO: Bye.

JD: Sheila Copps was the Deputy Prime Minister in the Liberal cabinet of Prime Minister Jean Chretien. We reached Ms. Copps in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico.

[Music]

Bekah D'Aoust

JD: Last November, As It Happens spoke to the woman at the centre of the so-called, "Sexsomnia" case. At an initial trial, the court found that she had been sexually assaulted by a man by the name of Ryan Hartman. Mr. Hartman appealed that conviction -- claiming a mental disorder meant he was actually asleep at the time he committed the offence. He was again found guilty. But we could not name his victim at the time because of a publication ban which was enforced after he launched a Jordan Appeal -- claiming his case had been subject to "unreasonable delays." Yesterday though an Ontario court lifted that ban. And Bekah D'Aoust is now free to say her name. In a video statement, Ms. D'Aoust posted online, she spoke about reclaiming her identity.

SOUNDCLIP

BEKAH D'AOUST: February 12th, 2011 -- Ryan Hartman sexually assaulted me. For eight years part of my identity has been taken away from me. You have all known me as a victim. But today, I'm more than that. I'm a wife. I'm a daughter. I'm a sister. I'm a granddaughter. I'm a friend. I'm an aunt. My name is Bekah D'Aoust. And I am extremely proud to say that I am also a survivor -- and I hope that in the future I become an advocate. The last eight years have been extremely challenging. This is me. I'm just like you. I'm fighting this fight. It seems so long now -- and I'll be fighting it for the rest of my life. But I want other victims to know that you're not alone. And if I can help you in any way in the future I will. We need to stick together. We need to speak up otherwise this is just going to keep happening. I pray on February 20th sentencing will occur and I will finally read my victim impact statement. Because this needs to be over. It has gone on for far too long. I thank everybody who has been there in my life to support me on this journey because I wouldn't be where I am today without you.

JD: That was Bekah D'Aoust speaking of her relief that a publication ban on her name has been lifted. A decision on whether Mr. Hartman's Jordan appeal will progress is expected later this month.

[Music]

Alberta Headdress

Guest: Kent Ayoungman

JD: Among the used clothing and the paperbacks, one object stood out. Last June, authorities were alerted that an Okotoks, Alberta, thrift store was selling what appeared to be an authentic Indigenous headdress. After an investigation it was determined that the item -- an anonymous donation to the store -- was in fact a ceremonial Blackfoot headdress believed to be over 100 years old. That headdress has now been given back to the community through Kent Ayoungman -- a member of the Blackfoot sacred societies. We reached Mr. Ayoungman in the Siksika Nation, in Alberta.

CO: Kent what was it like for you to hold this headdress in your own hands after it was returned to your people?

KENT AYOUNGMAN: It was an amazing feeling to think that this headdress dates back quite some time, you know. And that at one point in time it was worn by significant people amongst the Blackfoot.

CO: What does it look like?

KA: This headdress -- it's made out of immature golden eagle feathers. And primarly that's what our people used, for our ceremonial items, were the golden eagle tail feathers. And how it was made -- it was made to stand up, straight up, and by that style that's distinctively that it's made by the Blackfoot people. In our language we refer to those types of headdress [speaking in Blackfoot language] referring to how it's describing its look as it's standing straight up.

CO: And what purpose would it have served? What kind of a ceremony might it be used for?

KA: Well these headdress -- traditionally they come to the Blackfoot people from our, we refer to them as our sacred societies. There's a particular society amongst the Blackfoot we call [speaking in Blackfoot language] which translates to the bull society -- the buffalo, bull, society. So the ceremonies that take place originate from that particular sacred society amongst our people. These headdresses -- you know our people wear them for special events. You know we have many social events amongst our people and our biggest-most important time of the year [speaking in Blackfoot language] it is when all our people come together and that's where you see a lot of these headdresses being worn.

CO: How do you think it ended up in a thrift shop in Okotoks?

KA: The only way that we learnt that it ended up in the thrift shop in Okotoks was by Officer Marasco -- he is a Fish and Wildlife officer out of High River. And he was notified that there was a headdress in their possession. When he talked to the store there it was, apparently, it was donated in there or it was placed in their donation box...

CO: Just anonymously.

KA: Anonymously yeah.

CO: But there is a note attached -- yes?

KA: There was a note. Yes. On there it was written as Indian Residential School in Red Deer. But from my knowledge and my understanding that they were industrial schools. After that industrial school closed down, that's when Poundmaker Indian Residential School opened up by Edmonton.

CO: But if it was in a residential school -- it was a teacher who had it in his or her possession, is that right?

KA: That's correct. And how it ended up in their possession, we don't know. We don't know. It could have been gifted to the guy. The guy could have bought it from somebody. That part, we just cannot trace back to.

CO: Is it possible it was stolen?

KA: That could be a possibility. Now there's all kinds of possibilities eh. But you know for a time you know the efforts of the Canadian government trying to assimilate our people by placing them into these industrial schools -- that ventured into Indian residential schools -- they batted our people not knowing who they were anymore. Some of our old people would say, they took the Indian-ness from them -- they Christianized them. And the children who went to these schools you know they were scared to be Indian. When they come out they don't understand the importance of who we are anymore.

CO: It seems ironic that a teacher would value this sacred headdress given that it was within a system that was trying to destroy that culture. That was the intention -- to remove all knowledge in connection to that culture from those students.

KA: Yeah that's pretty crazy.

CO: What do you make of that?

KA: Well the way I look at it you know -- the early settlers, the early people, who came out and made contact with the Blackfoot they were intrigued by them. They saw how sophisticated our social structure was and they saw how vibrant our ancestors were. The pride that they took in their homes. The pride that they took in their horses. I'm sure these early settlers that come to our people were quite amazed with what they saw.

CO: What will you do with it now?

KA: We're going to restore it to make it what it once was. Once that process is done -- then we're going to put it back into our community. We're going to find somebody you know that has made accomplishments and bring them through the ceremony to own it.

CO: So it is not going to become some historic artifact -- it is going to be part of your living culture.

KA: Yes. No, it's not going to go into a display case -- it is not going to go into any kind of exhibition. It is going to be used as what it's purpose is intended for.

CO: Well I'm glad that you have this back. And it sounds fascinating that it's going to be again part of living ceremonies, living traditions. And it's good to talk to you Kent. Thank you.

KA: Okay. Thank you.

JD: We reached Kent Ayoungman on the Siksika Nation in Alberta.

[Music]

Sperm Obstacle Course

Guest: Tom Hannam

JD: When it comes to sperm -- the faster, the better. But fertility doctors have never really had a way to find just who is the fastest. Until now. A team of scientists at the University of Toronto has developed a "sperm obstacle course" -- and it is now on its way to clinical trials. Dr. Tom Hannam is a fertility doctor who was involved with the study. We reached Dr. Hannam in Toronto.

CO: Dr. Hannam why did you want to test sperm on an obstacle course?

TOM HANNAM: That's a good question. You know we've been lucky in fertility. There's been a lot of advances in recent years with embryos. Now we're able to do complete genetic testing of an embryo before we even transfer it. And with eggs -- we're now able to offer women opportunities to freeze eggs so they can build their family when they're ready to do so. But we have not had any material advances for men. In fact we treat this sperm the same way now as we did 20 and 30 years ago.

CO: But wasn't the test -- and I guess perhaps it still is -- that you look for fast little fellows that might do the job?

TH: Sure. You're looking for the guys who swim the best. Actually the way we test sperm right now is we put them in a centrifuge, we spin them down to the bottom, and then watch who swims best their way back up to the top. And we take that guy -- and that's who we put into eggs when we're doing fertility. It's hardly a natural way of treating the sperm but that's what we've been doing.

CO: Okay so it's worked so far up to now. Why did you think that you had to look and see if there wasn't some better way to test these fellows?

TH: It was my colleague David Sinton -- he works in the mechanical engineering department at the University of Toronto. And he works in the space of microfluidics. That means looking at how small cells interact in fluid columns at a microscopic scale. And he started to think that there might be a better way. And he was right. Because we've always been assuming that sperm swim but they don't. Sperm slither. What sperm like to do actually is go around corners. And when you think about it, that makes a lot of sense. Because sperm don't actually swim up the fallopian tube -- a fallopian tube is a very skinny passageway, and they like to edge their way out of the fallopian tube.

CO: Of course they do. And this is the fluid column you're talking about?

TH: Yeah. So what the Sinton Lab was able to create on a chip -- looks like a silicon computer wafer -- but what they did instead is they created a maze. So what we can do in the clinic is we can drop the sperm at one end of the maze and you wait 10 minutes. And sperm start popping out at the other end. And what the guys who've managed to get through the maze have done is they've self-selected for the sperm who are not just able to swim but actually able to swim and go around corners -- negotiate the edges as it were.

CO: Okay so does it mean they have a high IQ as well?

TH: I don't know. I don't know. But we've been able to look at the DNA inside the sperm and we can say that they have a lower fragmentation rate of the DNA. That's one of the ways we tell who's a better sperm. But you're right -- we're right at the point now of taking the sperm and actually placing them into eggs. And what we're actually looking for is just for healthy babies. And so we're looking for better outcomes. So this could be a real value to men who have sperm quality problems because up until this point we just haven't had a mechanism -- not really for determining which is the best sperm to choose. And now we're most hopeful that we do. It's a filtering mechanism that is maybe a bit more like nature intended.

CO: All right so screening them out pretty vigorously. But described this obstacle course a bit more please.

TH: So it's a good question. What should an obstacle course even look like? And so what we did is we devised various versions of things. You could imagine having to go around little triangles or around little squares. But I really emphasise 'little' -- everything is at a scale that you can see the chip. It's about the size of a thumbnail. But what's going on in there is all at the microscopic level. So these guys were calling it the Sperm Olympics because we're trying to work out who's best capable of getting to the far end. When they reach the other end -- we've got, it's like the equivalent of a sticky surface for a sperm. They have a reaction to it. So they will get stuck in place and we can use artificial intelligence to help us select the best sperm at the other end and pick the guy up and put them in.

CO: Are their ribbons and a podium?

TH: Well you know that's the next step isn't it -- we're going to find out. Because the ribbon is you win the ability to actually get placed into an egg. And our real hope of course is that we're getting healthier embryos as a result.

CO: Because you don't want those lazy guys -- you don't want lazy sperms. You want these intrepid...

TH: We have always wanted that. So you know we've always chosen sperm who appear the strongest, who have the best seaming swimming tails. But up until now it's been up to a laboratory technician to just choose the sperm that has the most aesthetic appeal. There's got to be a better way -- that was the motivation for creating this maze.

CO: Have you got a motto like: Faster, Higher, Stronger?

TH: Not yet. But we'll let you know as soon as we have our successful outcomes.

CO: Successful outcomes mean women get pregnant. People get to have babies. Right? That's your goal.

TH: Yep. So as you know we're able now with embryos -- fortunately with embryos -- we're able to tell a lot about embryos before we even transfer them in. So unfortunately for many couples going through fertility treatments, they have a relatively high proportion of embryos that are genetically imbalanced. So we're hopeful that in being able to choose higher quality sperm we're going to be able to have a higher proportion of embryos that are truly viable. Nature has designed sperm to be extremely inefficient. There's millions of sperm in the ejaculate. We're just looking for the few that we would want for any given fertility treatment.

CO: Many are called, few are chosen.

TH: That's it.

CO: D. Hannam good Luck.

TH: Thank you very much. Pleasure to speak.

JD: Dr. Tom Hannam is a fertility doctor. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music]

Part 2: Black activist who took over neo-Nazi group plans to stream Schindler's List on its website

Neo-Nazi Infiltration

Guest: James Hart Stern

JD: There are a couple of things you should know about James Hart Stern. First, he is the new leader of the National Socialist Movement -- one of the biggest and oldest neo-Nazi groups in the United States. Second, he's a black civil rights activist. And third, he plans to take the group he now leads down from within. We reached James Hart Stern in Los Angeles.

CO: Mr. Stern you are an African-American civil rights activist -- why would you want to lead the National Socialist Movement?

JAMES HART STERN: First of all, I don't want to lead it. I'm not leading it. I'm dismantling it. I did take possession of the organization, but it was strictly for the purpose of making sure that its 45 years of reigning terror on humanity will be over.

CO: You are the leader though of this neo-Nazi group?

JHS: I am. I am legally right now considered the legal leader of the National Socialist Movement. Absolutely.

CO: So now that you are the leader of the National Socialist Movement, what's your first order of business?

JHS: I've already accomplished that. I filed the motion to the courts to offer summary judgment on organizational lawsuit to plead guilty liable to all of its actions that it has been accused of. So it would have to pay the consequences for everything it has done.

CO: Why would they allow you to become the leader?

JHS: Well they didn't know. The leader betrayed his own people and it backfired on the whole group. The leader himself Jeff Schoep -- he was desperate to get out of a lawsuit. And he's also afraid of going to jail under the RICO Act meaning that if one of his members do a crime the whole organization has to pay for it. So therefore that's why he tried to make some strategic maneuvers that backfired on him.

CO: This is an absolutely fascinating story. And there's a very large backstory I know and I just want to touch on it which is that Jeff Schoep trusted you because, to do this, because you had this long and trusting and bizarre relationship with a former grand wizard of the KKK -- is that right?

JHS: That's basically true. Yes.

CO: You at some point shared a prison cell with Edgar Ray Killen -- well known for Mississippi burning killings. And he trusted you with his estate, didn't he?

JHS: Edgar Ray Killen the imperial wizard of the KKK in the '50s and '60s -- who had like 4-million Klansman under his belt -- under his authority. He gave me his 41 acres of property. He gave me his powers of attorney. He gave me all of his book movie rights. But he did it not as a trusted move -- he did it as a way of knowing that he was going to die in prison. He had 60 years. And he was mad at his family members and other folks. And so I was in the right place at the right time, and he gave it to me. But remember I'm going to substitute the word 'ninja' -- when you hear me say ninja it actually means the 'N word.' This is a man who called me the word ninja everyday -- who had no respect for me and had no regard for me. But I was all he had. And he did grow to like me because I was there quietly listening to him and being what he called a friend to him.

CO: And after he had passed off to you all his property, his power of attorney, his ID -- what did you do with that?

JHS: As far as his powers of attorney -- I took my power of the KKK imperial wizard signature, and I disbanded the KKK in Mississippi. And as far as his movie rights, book rights -- well Antwone Fisher, a famous screenwriter, he wrote a wonderful movie for Columbia Pictures of my life story with Edgar Ray Killen.

CO: So that was worthy of a movie before we go on to this chapter which is that you are now the leader of the National Socialist Movement. Now did Mr. Schoep -- who was the former leader -- did he know that everything you had done to the KKK and the whole story that...

JHS: Absolutely. He came out to Los Angeles in a summit meeting with me. We've had a long communication. I tape recorded all of our calls with his knowledge. And I have emails of him writing me in a friendly manner of you know befriending me. And he always knew -- in all of our conversations -- that I'm his opposition. Remember I'm James Stern -- I am Reverend Stern -- I'm over racial reconciliation. The group trying to change him. I even got him to take the swastikas off his website by my influence of him before I took over the organization and that was in 2016.

CO: What does he get out of this by passing it on to you?

JHS: Nothing. He was hoping to get off the lawsuit. His goal was to try to -- first of all -- prove to the world that he had changed. He was going to dissolve the corporation Carol. And that means that he was going to legally tell the Secretary of State that the organization don't exist no more. That scared me. If he dissolved it -- anybody could have picked it up and re-incorporated it again and carried on the same shenanigans. That's why I encouraged him -- I says I tell you what, if you want to try to prove to the world that you won't use the organization no more -- don't dissolve it so someone else can use it. Give it to a black man. Me. If I get it you know I'm not going to use it no more.

CO: There are many groups who are fighting for so-called white rights. And this is an old organization the one you took over. But there are others who are becoming more mainstream, who are taking that same message, they were all involved in this notorious nationalist rally in Charlottesville in 2017. Is there anything that you're doing that will curtail or prevent things like what happened in Charlottesville or any place else?

JHS: Oh absolutely. First of all I'm taking the organization to make sure that it can't be used no more by putting it in the shelf. If anyone uses it -- we see the name out there -- we'll have a cease and desist or will be able to stop them. Secondly, the website -- I think 1.2-million people a day go to this website -- we're going to be actually for the first time streaming on it movies to educate people on the truth about racism. We are going to put movies like Schindler's List on their -- Amistad, Roots and any other movies that's going to be coming our way. I actually called the Jewish community to work with me on this so they can give me the education and different recommendations of things that need to be put on this website to help teach people about the truth about what the Jewish people have gone through in atrocities and genocide against them. As a black man -- our leaders are using it to teach people about it.

CO: But aren't the people who were following Jeff Schoep and following this particular group, the National Socialist Movement, won't they just move on to follow Richard Spencer or any of those in the White Supremacy movement who are putting a veneer on what they're doing and selling to a lot of people.

JHS: You're right. They're already following him. And this is not going to be a long-forever-lasting stand. But while we have the attention of young people who don't know about Richard Spencer -- remember there are a lot of people on this website that go to it that aren't old -- their generation who's knowledgeable. These young people who are influential minds -- just being influenced right now, and shaped in a way of how they're going to think for the rest of their life. So those are people we're reaching out to the most.

CO: Mr. Stern you are a force to be reckoned with.

JHS: Thank you.

CO: We will be watching your activities with interest. Thank you.

JHS: Thank you very much for having me on. The honour was mine.

JD: James Hart Stern is a black civil rights activist and the new leader of the American neo-nazi group the National Socialist Movement -- which he now plans to destroy from within. You can find more about Mr. Stern's story on our website cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Luke Perry

JD: Luke Perry's star power spanned two generations -- first, as the rebel heartthrob Dylan McKay on Beverly Hills 90210 back in the '90s. And these days as Archie Andrews' dad on the Netflix show, "Riverdale." Luke Perry of course died yesterday after suffering a stroke. He was 52 years old. And stories have since been pouring in from fans who got the chance to meet Mr. Perry over the years -- fans like Don Sparrow. Mr. Sparrow is a graphic artist in Saskatoon who will never forget meeting the star alongside his sister, Shawna. Here is Mr. Sparrow speaking to CBC "Saskatoon Morning" host Leisha Grebinski today.

SOUNDCLIP

DON SPARROW: Like a lot of people my age, I grew up watching Beverly Hills 90210. They were a little bit older than I was -- as I was watching it, I think I started when I was about 10. So you know it was sort of aspirational. Like that's what high school would be like. Of course it wasn't like that for anybody because it is Beverly Hills. But anyway -- so we watched it growing up. And it was sort of a bonding thing for me and my sister. So when I heard they it had been announced that they're having a cast come to the Calgary-Expo I thought well I've got to take my sister. So sort of as a gift for her -- bought passes for us and a photo-op to meet the cast. It was Jason Priestly, Ian Ziering, and Luke Perry. And we were so excited. So we got our friend who's a costumer to make us Peach Pit uniforms which was the sort of hang out on that show. And so we had our own nerdy little uniforms. And [we] went and you know lined up to meet them. The good thing was because the Calgary-Expo was more of a Sci-Fi con, not a lot of people were that interested in the 90210 cast. You know people were, but it wasn't the crazy lineups you get for other guys. So as a result of that we had a lot of time with these guys. So they were very impressed with our uniforms. And I also had done artwork for sort of you know commemorative prints of them coming. And each actor I did a separate drawing of. And so anyway -- when I met Luke Perry he really liked the drawing and was very impressed by it and was very kind about it. So then I said well you know if you like it you can actually have the original -- I've got it here. Because it was in my art bag. And so then he got very excited about that. He said are you kidding? Oh man! And then he jumped up and came around the table which is you know very much against Comic Con protocol and embraced me. And he gave me this big hug to sort of thank me for this drawing. And I really didn't think that they would go for the drawings because you'd think they'd have no end of artwork from having been teen idols -- every teenage girl and boy sending them stuff over the years. But he seemed to really dig it. So as he's hugging me I'm just thinking -- this is so wrong. He should be hugging my sister who's been in love with him since she was like 13 years old. So while he's hugging me I say I'm afraid you're going to have to hug my sister. And he goes, hug her? I'll lift her off the ground. And so he did. He lets me go and picks her up and sweeps her around in a circle in his arms which was not at all what we expected from any celebrity encounter much less the brooding sort of you know [inaudible] Dylan McKay. So it was very surreal and very exciting just how kind he was.

JD: That was Don Sparrow speaking about his encounter with actor Luke Perry on CBC's "Saskatoon Morning" today. Luke Perry -- the Beverly Hills 90210 actor -- died yesterday after suffering a stroke last week. He was 52.

[Music]

Holocaust Archives

Guest: David Rosen

JD: Pope Pius the 12th is arguably the most controversial pope in modern history. Now the world is going to have a chance to examine archives from his papacy, which lasted from 1939 through 1958. And this may put to rest arguments about what he did or did not do during the rise of Nazism and the ensuing persecution and murder of Jews during World War Two. Yesterday, Pope Francis instructed Vatican officials to open archives from Pius's pontificate unusually early so that his actions can be examined ahead of his canonization. Rabbi David Rosen is the international director of inter-religious affairs with the American Jewish Committee. He has been campaigning for these archives to be opened for more than 30 years. We reached Rabbi Rosen in Rome.

CO: Rabbi Rosen I know you have been waiting for decades to get access to this archive and you're not alone in that. What does it mean that it will soon be open?

DAVID ROSEN: It means that we will have both far more clarity with regards to actually what took place, what was done, what was not done, what was opposed, what was not opposed, during the period of the Holocaust -- the period of the Second World War. And it will mean that any suspicions that there are some desire not to be able to be fully transparent will be put to rest. And therefore whatever debate will remain we will know remain on the basis of our subjective analysis of history and not on the basis of the objective facts.

CO: What do you expect or hope to learn from those documents?

DR: If there is the opportunity for scholars from around the world to look at the material, what we will be looking for is what steps were taken to both directly oppose Nazism and the Nazi extermination machine and what positions were taken if there was a desire not to directly confront it -- what were the arguments, the reasons given, what was the process involved.

CO: But it's not a blank slate right now, is it. I mean there are some indications about -- well some suspicions at the time of what relationship Pope Pius the 12th had with Nazis both in Italy and in Germany. And there have been those who in recent decades have been able to get access to some files to see what that relationship was about, what it was based on. What you understand at this point as to how Pius the 12th related to the Nazis?

DR: The Vatican did publish already a few decades ago 11 volumes of documents from that particular period. And part of it sought to reflect a Pope Pius the 12th support for efforts to save Jews during that time. Again the very fact that these documents were selected by Catholic officials to some extent does not add clarity because then one raises the question why were other materials not presented. But the issue to some extent is a hypothetical one. The defenders of Pius the12th claim that he did everything he thought he could do -- and if he did not directly confront the Nazis, openly condemn the extermination of the Jews by name, it was a tactical decision on his part with the best of intentions believing that if he were directly confronted there would be more negative repercussions and consequences. From a Jewish perspective this seems in retrospect to be rather ludicrous -- how could there have been anything more catastrophic than what already took place? And had there been a moral voice that would have been expressed direct condemning the Nazis and calling on Catholics not to collaborate and describing such collaboration as a sin then the reactions would have been very different. This leads all to another question which is a question that is there in the background concerning the archives -- and that is the move to beatify and then to canonize Pius the 12th. And from a perspective of those especially connected to the tragedy of the Holocaust, the very idea that one could pronounce any one to be completely virtuous at such a terrible time and maybe they laid their life down against such evil seems to be almost an anathema.

CO: Is Pope Pius the 12th an anti-Semite?

DR: I don't think it's fair to portray him as being -- of having a particularly unique malevolent attitude towards Jews. We need to bear in mind that prior to the Second Vatican Council and prior to the document [inaudible] that had been the normative perception within the churches and not just the Catholic church. And therefore attitudes were more correct to talk of anti-Jewish rather than anti-Semitic in other words more related to Judaism as a religion than any kind of ethnic bias was the norm at the time.

CO: But he knew the Holocaust was going on, didn't he. Why did he do nothing to stop it?

DR: That's the big question. And that's the source of a great deal of angst and distress within the Jewish community. In fact there's a very interesting publication produced by Professor Moloney of Bologna University of the diaries of John the 23rd. And John the 23rd recalls that when he was the emissary of the Vatican in Turkey and came back and he met with Pope Pius the 12th -- Pius the 12th actually said to him, what are they saying about my silence? In other words he was perfectly conscious of the fact that he was not taking a stand against the Nazi regime -- that there were those that wanted him to do so and that were calling on him to do so. But he took this decision not to do so. That was based on his calculation that a direct confrontation would do more harm certainly to the Catholic church and probably to the papacy itself.

CO: There is a statement about this release that is to come. And the prefect of the Vatican Secret Archives Bishop Sergio Pagano is saying that the papers being made available will attest to an almost superhuman work of Christian humanism that was active in that time. Are you at all concerned that whatever is opened up or released will be limited and you will not see the full scope of Pope Pius the 12th's activities and his thoughts?

DR: Well I hope that won't be the case. And I think there's reason to be optimistic -- Pope Francis has put the weight of his papacy behind it that there will be an open and objective analysis. But of course this always begs the question and another question, if there was ever any smoking gun that incriminated Pope Pius the 12th it would probably have been removed a long time ago. And therefore to some extent there's never going to be full satisfaction even with full access to what is available. I hope at the end of the day that we will be mature enough -- Jews and Catholics -- to recognize that we have different historical memories, different ways of seeing the actors involved in that particular historical period, and learn to agree to disagree.

CO: Rabbi Rosen I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

DR: Thank you.

JD: Rabbi David Rosen is with the American Jewish Committee. We reached him in Rome.

[Music]

Howard The Giant Gnome

JD: Howard the giant Gnome has fallen on hard times. His face is covered in moss. He's partially held together by rope. And the platform where upon he stands is rotting. It's a far cry from his glory days 20 years past when Ron Hale built him and placed him upon his post along the Island Highway on Vancouver Island. And Guinness World Records officially recognized him as the tallest of his kind-- at 7.91 metres. And yet for all his remarkable past, his new and current owners are not convinced. They plan to dismantle him. Mr. Hale's granddaughter, Bridget Matewish is hoping Howard can retire to a new location. She spoke to "All Points West" host Robyn Burns about how Howard came to be and what may come.

SOUNDCLIP

BRIDGET MATEWISH: My grandpa decided to take on a project and built the mascot for our amusement park.

ROBYN BURNS: A 25-foot-tall mascot. Why did he want to build Howard so tall?

BRIDGET MATEWISH: Honestly I have no idea. But my grandpa didn't ever do anything halfway. So he constructed it in his own garage in four pieces -- and just with scraps and stuff that we had kicking around the property here. I'd drive right past the gnome every morning and every evening when I take my baby to daycare or you know go out for coffee or anything that I do in my day. So I noticed one day that there was caution tape up around him. So I would love to see him stay. If he can't say then we would love to see him go to a home where he can be equally enjoyed, where people can take photos with him. But where he will be taken care of and you know kept in good shape. I even had somebody today offer to take him to Nova Scotia.

ROBYN BURNS: I'd like to see him on the back of a flatbed truck -- all 25 feet of him.

JD: That was Bridget Matewish in conversation with "All Points West" Robyn Burns in Victoria, British Columbia. She was speaking about Howard the giant Gnome her grandpa built, and the quest to find Howard a new home.

[Music]

Alex Hall

JD: Alex Hall spent his days exploring the most remote parts of Canada and sharing that love with whoever was brave enough to join him. Over the weekend the long-time wilderness guide died of cancer in Fort Smith, Northwest Territories. He was 76 years old. Mr. Hall ran a one-man canoe-trip business -- taking people to the remote Thelon wilderness of the Northwest Territories and Nunavut. And he was a fierce advocate for the dangerous barren lands of the north. Last July after finding out he had cancer, Mr. Hall sat down with CBC reporter Priscilla Hwang to speak about his career. Here's part of that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

ALEX HALL: I have a business called Canoe Arctic Incorporated. And I've been in business since 1975. The business is taking people on canoe trips in the barren lands in the northern fringes of the Boreal forest -- mostly in the barren lands. And for those who do not know the barren lands or the mainland tundra -- the largest wilderness left in North America by far, twice the size of Alberta, twice the size of Texas. And I guess the largest uninhabited wilderness left on planet Earth -- at least north of Antarctica. The professor I worked for doing my master's degree at University of Toronto was Doug Pimlott he was a famous wolf biologist and environmentalist. And in 1970 when a lot of us were finishing our thesis he wanted us to go to Baffin Island to work on some of his wolf and caribou projects. And ironically in view of my later career I was the only one who wasn't interested in going. But in the end I decided to go because I thought I'd never get another chance to see the Arctic and it was a free trip. And so the pivotal moment was -- we were flying out of in a small chartered airplane in cloudy weather and I remember we broke through the clouds over the great plane of the Kuujjuaq and I don't know -- we weren't very high above the ground. Maybe three or four hundred feet. I looked down and all I could see was lush green tundra covered in caribou and covered in the snow geese. And that was a pivotal thing that changed the rest of my life -- although I wasn't aware of it yet. But the hair just stood up on the back of my neck and my imagination flew and I was hooked. At that second, that very moment, I was hooked for the rest of my life.

JD: That was a longtime wilderness guide and advocate Alex Hall speaking with the CBC last year. Mr. Hall died over the weekend. He was 76 years old.

[Music]

Part 3: Volvo's 180km/h speed limit only a 'first step' towards safety, says automotive journalist

Volvo Speed Limit

Guest: Brendan McAleer

JD: Volvo has always prided itself on the safety of its vehicles. And starting next year the company is taking that to a whole new level. The Swedish car company announced that it is imposing a top speed limit on their cars of 180 kilometres per hour. The measure is meant to prevent road deaths. But Brendan McAleer is not convinced. Mr. McAleer is an automotive writer in Vancouver. That is where we reached him.

CO: Brendan why do you think Volvo has decided to slow down its vehicles?

BRENDAN MCALEER: I think that we live in an era where corporations like to show that they're virtuous. And I think it's a very easy move to slow down their vehicles because Volvo buyers are not particularly interested in high speed-high jinks. And also most European manufacturers offer some speed limiting on their vehicles. It's just that it's usually quite a bit higher than what Volvo is doing here.

CO: But who's driving 180 kilometres an hour out there?

BM: Well in Europe I mean there is the unrestricted autobahn and you can go that fast. But certainly I don't think that that's something that people are doing here in Ontario and B.C. -- there is nowhere that you could drive that fast and not have your vehicle go home on a flatbed. So there's that part of it. But I think that people like to have the potential in their back pocket. The kind of person who would buy an AMG Mercedes possibly wouldn't like the idea of being restricted in their speed. I mean you know the culture of Sammy Hagar can't drive 55 -- it's still very much alive today.

CO: But now as you mentioned in European countries and anyone who has ever driven on their autobahns and in their freeways -- I mean it's extraordinary how fast they go. So would this make a difference for people possibly buying a Volvo in European country that this Swedish car manufacturer is going to hold you to maximum 180?

BM: Not really. Most autobahn speed limits are about 130 kilometres an hour, and they do sort of suggest that there are suggested speed limits. As Homer Simpson famously observed, speed limits are a suggestion, like pants. In the case of Germany there is currently sort of some debate going on as to whether the unrestricted autobahn should actually have some kind of limits kept on it because accidents are infrequent. German driver training is very good, but when they do happen it's really serious. We may actually be seeing the end of the unrestricted autobahn sometime over the next several years. But lane discipline is very good. You're very likely to just drive in the slow lane in your Volvo -- and even if you're going a 180 kilometres an hour, that's pretty fast. That's faster than the trucks are moving. So you'd be clipping right along.

CO: But I mean do you have any idea what percentage or how many of the accidents are collisions or problems on the highways is because of speed?

BM: Well I only really am aware of North American kind of fatalities currently off the top of my head. And weirdly Volvo is positioning this move as being as important or as related to their three point seatbelt which they developed and then removed the patents on it so anybody could do this. And they're saying you know the seatbelt, three point seatbelt, has saved hundreds of thousands of lives. However the number two cause of fatalities in North America is people driving around without their seatbelts still -- which is just mind boggling to me that people are still doing that. It's still very much a case of you can restrict what human beings are able to do but they're going to find ways to sort of maybe abuse the technology a little bit.

CO: As you mentioned that the typical Volvo driver is not someone you associate with wanting to drive really fast. But we do see Italian carmaker -- there's news of this unveiling 'the fastest street legal car in the world -- that can go 400 kilometres an hour.' So who's driving that vehicle?

BM: Well I mean again for that particular vehicle it's not so much that you're going to but that you can and it's a bragging right. Look I got the fastest and the best, and look how wonderful this is. I don't know -- it maybe seems like it's harder to impress people with top speed because it is such a non-important measuring tool compared to how people will actually use their cars. And when I was a kid you know that 200 mile an hour -- 330 kilometre an hour -- kind of limit was this magical barrier that you had to be very skilled and only the most exotic and best cars in the world could get past it. And now you can go down to your Dodge dealership and buy you know a Charger Hellcat which will do 328 kilometres an hour -- and they'll know give you financing and put child seats in the back if you want to. So we are at a weird time when everything is faster and more powerful and really easy to drive fast. And even the Volvo drivers would sort of traditionally be the cardigan wearing you know pipe smoking college professor. If you drive a large crossover today, it's like an insulated experience. It's like being in an aircraft. You often don't notice how fast you're going. And I would bet that most of your listeners would realize that hey I've been on the highway once or twice in my you know big Honda Pilot, big whatever, and I looked down and I am like oh! I didn't notice I was going that fast. Because we just kind of tend to clump into these packs. And so Volvo limiting that -- I mean it's a pretty high limit still, but them sort of taking that first step does open the conversation to be like what's the responsibility of manufacturers to provide these things that can be used or abused and that are making us all collectively kind of drive faster than we perhaps realize.

CO: All the people who are driving while listening to this interview have just checked their speed I think.

BM: Yes.

CO: And with good reason. So slow down out there. Brendan it's good to talk to you.

BM: Thanks so much Carol.

JD: Hopefully your speed is under 180 kilometres per hour. Brendan McAleer is an automotive writer. We reached him in Vancouver. And we do have more on that story on our website cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

King Kong Bundy

SOUNDCLIP

[Wrestling bell rings]

ANNOUNCER 1: This is a one fall event. In the ring at this time from Hoboken, New Jersey, weighing 235 pounds -- Mario Mancini. [Crowd boos] And his opponent led down the aisle by his manager Jimmy Hart, from Atlantic City, New Jersey -- weighing 458 pounds -- King Kong Bundy. [Crowd cheers]

ANNOUNCER 2: 458 pound my goodness!

JD: From the beginning, it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that Mario Mancini was not going to win that fight. And sure enough his opponent -- by then known as King Kong Bundy -- wrapped things up in under three-and-a-half minutes. And upon being declared the winner King Kong Bundy delivered a final elbow drop to the laid out motionless Mr. Mancini and demanded that the referee give him a full five count instead of the regulation three. And from the debut match with the World Wrestling Federation in 1985, King Kong Bundy demonstrated that he did not do anything by half measures. His hype matched his size -- which at an imposing 6 foot 4, and as you heard, 458 pounds -- eclipsed the average sumo wrestler. They called him the "Walking condominium." But his assumed name symbolized something more lethal: a brute but cutthroat colossus combining the fictitious giant ape monster of cinema with the all too real serial killer, Ted Bundy. King Kong Bundy, born Christopher Alan Pallies died yesterday. He was 61 years old. His rise in the WWF -- now the WWE -- was fast. By 1986 he had already challenged the WWF star performer, World Heavyweight Champion Hulk Hogan. And the two went head to head in a steel cage match in April 1986 -- in the pay-per-view extravaganza known as "Wrestlemania 2." He lost that match. But the WWE noted quote, "Bundy's mammoth girth and devastating splashes came close to putting The Hulkster away for good." And that set the stage for a future faceoff in 1988 where once again Mr. Bundy seemed destined to crush The Hulkster once and for all.

SOUNDCLIP

[Crowd cheers]

ANNOUNCER 1: 450 pounds right on the chest and neck of Hulk Hogan.

ANNOUNCER 2: King Kong Bundy certainly in control of things now. And the pendulum has swung back into Bundy's favour. Hulkster to the ropes. Knocks him down again.

ANNOUNCER 1: You noticed all the Hulkamaniacs seem very quiet right now. I don't see Hulkamania running wild -- what I see is Bundymania running wild. Down at 2. Yes indeed history could be made here.

ANNOUNCER 2: That has got to be very painful.

ANNOUNCER 1: Definitely. It is a smart move on Bundy. He is wearing down champion Hulk Hogan. He has got that reverse chin lock on. Got his neck pinned back against his knee. And I don't see any way for Hogan to get out of this.

JD: Well perhaps predictably Hulk Hogan did get out of it, and successfully defended his title. But earlier this morning he took to Twitter to say that he was "overwhelmed" by Bundy's passing. He tweeted, "Only great memories. R.I.P. big man, until we meet again." Christopher Alan Pallies -- a.k.a. King Kong Bundy died yesterday. He was 61 years old.

[Music]

John Goehrke

JD: It is a wild stab in the social media dark that many perhaps, mostly male fans believe is worth taking: ask your sporting idol out on a date in the hopes that they will spy your dispatch above millions of others and agree to a rendezvous with a complete stranger. But for John Goehrke, that stunt paid off. In 2017, the 20-year-old from Missouri made a bet on Twitter with tennis star Eugenie Bouchard: If the Atlanta Falcons lost the Super Bowl he would win a date. Well the Falcons did lose. But the subsequent date was not a one off. After Bouchard and Goehrke met up, they continued to be seen together throughout the year. And now according to reports, the whole encounter is going to be made into a movie. From our archives here is John Goehrke telling As It Happens guest host Helen Mann, why he was such a big fan of Ms. Bouchard.

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN GOEHRKE: Well I kind of started following her in 2014 when she made it to the Wimbledon final. That was like a big deal I know for women's tennis and Canadian tennis just because there had never been a Canadian to win a Grand Slam.

I thought it was cool because I think she was either 19 or 20 at the time so she was pretty young and kind of coming on the scene and that obviously I thought she was pretty attractive. I just kind of became a big fan of hers and started following her ever since.

HELEN MANN: You know a lot of people might wonder or think that this is maybe a little bit creepy because you know, I guess a lot of celebrities, a lot of famous athletes do have people reach out to them and comment on things other than their skills. What do you say to those who kind of were taken aback by this?

JG: Oh, I mean, I think one of the main reasons that I did it is because I knew how young she was, I feel like I could, I kind of I can relate to how she is as a person. I've seen her do interviews and different things, listening to her speak, she just seemed like a really nice person. And I didn't I didn't want it to come off like creepy or anything like that, I just thought it be something fun to do and something that I kind of knew she wouldn't take the wrong way, and she obviously didn't.

HM: How far are you willing to travel for this date?

JG: We'll see what happens. As long as it's realistic, I'm going to try to do whatever I can to make it happen. I know she gave an interview yesterday saying she might even be able to fly me out to one of her tournaments or something and then I can set up the rest.

HM: You are really though, complete strangers. Are you nervous about what you're going to talk about?

JG: I'm more nervous just to meet her at first. I think after a few minutes I'll be fine, but I don't think there'll be a lack of things to talk about just because this whole situation.

JD: That was bet winter and Eugenie-Bouchard-dater John Goehrke speaking to As It Happens in February 2017.

[Music]

Phoenix CRA

Guest: Gerry Campbell

JD: Phoenix -- the payroll processing system for Canadian federal employees -- launched three years ago. Unlike its mythical namesake however it never really soared, did it -- although the cost to fix it has. Some workers saw mistakes on their paycheques; others did not see any paycheques at all. And for Marilyn West the troubles cropped up when she received her T-4 for 2016. Tax specialist Gerry Campbell took on the case. We reached Mr. Campbell in Toronto, Ontario.

CO: Mr. Campbell what was wrong with Marilyn West's T-4 slip?

GERRY CAMPBELL: Initially they had T-4 slip with no source deductions on it.

CO: So her T-4 indicated that there were no deductions but there had been deductions -- is that right?

GC: They were deducted from her paystubs so she received the gross amount minus and that amount of the source deductions and received only a net amount of pay.

CO: And she had evidence to show that she had...

GC: She had every paystub.

CO: I mean it sounds like a no brainer. Why is it so difficult to resolve this?

GC: Because CRA was taking the stance that they rely on the T-4 -- and it doesn't matter what the source documents are. Now this seems on the surface to be a bit of a contradiction because they'll go in and audit companies and modify T-4s, but they appear not to want to audit themselves.

CO: But she's not the only one who's had a problem with the T-4s...

GC: That is my understanding from the story that's breaking today.

CO: And Canada Revenue Agency is not recognizing that there is a larger problem then.

GC: Certainly they are taking the position that the T-4 is a fait accompli -- that you know the T-4 is what the employer is providing them and that is what the document that they should rely on as for the information for the purposes of a person's tax return.

CO: Have you been able to resolve this issue for Marilyn West?

GC: Only by applying to go to tax court, waiting for the tax court date to arrive, and then waiting for about two weeks before the tax court -- when Justice Department finally contacted me and talked about the issue.

CO: But there was a second incorrect T-4, is that right?

GC: In between -- this fix group issued another one after we send them all documentation -- but it as well was incorrect.

CO: And how did you get that fixed?

GC: We didn't. We just went back on the fact that here's source documents, here's the money that Revenue Canada swiped from her payroll and now they're trying to double tax her -- to try to get it again because the T-4 was incorrect.

CO: Is the only way to resolve these things is to go to court?

GC: I don't know if it's the only way to resolve it, but this appears to be one of the fastest way to get a Phoenix problem resolved.

CO: It's never supposed be the fastest way to resolve for something going to court, right. I mean people complained about that -- that is as low as the boat you can take. So if that's the fastest route, what are people going through?

GC: A lot of people are just walking away and accepting the decision of the T-4 that they got and that is really unfortunate. The government is really double taxing those people.

CO: We wanted to speak with Marilyn West about this but I know she's not well and that's why we asked you if you could speak for her on this. So she's been ill and as well dealing with this issue. Is that right?

GC: That is correct. The stress of this issue hasn't been helpful. She has a life threatening disease. She really is doing much better mentally I think since she heard that the government has settled.

CO: How much of this has traced back to -- we've done many stories on this Phoenix pay system which has caused unbelievable trouble for so many people just getting paid -- does this trace back to Phoenix as well?

GC: I have no doubt that it traces back. In her case she retired basically at the same time that the Phoenix system kicked in.

CO: And so this was her last T-4 as an employee before she retired?

GC: That is correct.

CO: But that T-4 was created by the Phoenix system.

GC: Yes.

CO: How many of these Phoenix issues do you see come across your desk?

GC: This is the second one that I've countered where the person came to us specifically for taxes. The other one was resolved by the fix group -- whatever this special department the government has set up to try to fix their Phoenix payroll issues.

CO: I mean the Phoenix payroll issues are legion. They're just extraordinary. And they seem to go on and on, don't they?

GC: And the government itself hasn't [inaudible] up to 10 years. The previous government bought a system and installed a system that wasn't properly tested from what I understand in the media -- and they tried to create a system that was unique for Canadians instead of trying to buy something off the shelf. It's a lot cheaper in the long run the by-product off the shelf and work with the owning company to try to modify it to your needs than try to start again from scratch.

CO: CBC has been interviewing people about the T-4 issue. One woman Cathy Dickinson describes getting five T-4s issued for 2017. All of them wrong. And she says that her request to get this resolved has gone into a black hole. Is that how you feel?

GC: Well anytime I deal with CRA I almost feel like it's a black hole. They put these limits on time for you to respond to their decisions, but they take as long as they want to respond to the information you provide them.

CO: But CBC News has reported that in 2017 and 2018 the CRA processed almost fifty two thousand T-4s -- it has to be amended because of Phoenix.

GC: And there's a lot of employers out there that have to amend the T-4s too. But I think the ratio -- I don't know how many civil service there are to 52,000 amended T-4s but I feel it's certainly probably more than 20 percent.

CO: Mr. Campbell I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

GC: No problem. Pleasure to speak to you. Have a great day.

CO: You too.

JD: Gerry Campbell is a tax specialist who just went up against the federal government for his client Marilyn West. We reached him in Toronto.

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

March 5, 2019 Episode Transcript

More Stories Like This