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The Current Transcript for February 21, 2019

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

We had facts that we could not deny that the president may have committed a federal crime, that being obstruction of justice and that he may present a threat to national security.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Andrew McCabe does not sugar-coat his concerns related to the actions of the US President Donald Trump. 20 years into a shining career in the FBI, Andrew McCabe was handed at the top job on an interim basis by the president who had just fired his boss. He was quickly ordered two investigations related to the president in Russia and now admits to years at the time that he was fired from the FBI, those investigations could vanished without a trace. Andrew McCabe was indeed fired just before he was eligible for a pension. The investigations of course continue. In a moment, Andrew McCabe joins me to talk about it all. And then, lead to needs now for their sports and getting worried which is why members of the International Luge Federation made a video.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: We're the first generation affected by climate change. And we're the last generation to be able to do something about.

VOICE 2: Future generations should be able to know the joy of a snow day.

VOICE 1: Without winter, there is not sledding.

AMT: From sledder to skiers those who have relied on snow over decades of competing and coaching say they can't help but see the damage created by climate change. Now they're speaking up and their voices aren't always welcome. We'll tell you more in about half an hour. And as Catholic leaders gather at the Vatican to confront decades of sexual abuse of children by the clergy some childhood victims who are now adults are wary.

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Because of my experience of being abused, there is an extreme lack of trust and I must be honest, that I enter into this with a lack of trust.

AMT: We're on that story in an hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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Is Trump a Russian asset? 'I can't rule that out,' says ex-FBI head Andrew McCabe

Guest: Andrew McCabe

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AMT: President Donald Trump called it a great day for democracy when Andrew McCabe was fired last March from the FBI. He was sacked by the then U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions for allegedly misleading investigators at the Justice Department, and he was let go just 26 hours before he was scheduled to formally retire. Andrew McCabe has stepped back into the spotlight with a work that raises questions about the Trump administration and national security. It's become an instant best seller in the U.S. and it's said to be a subject of session inside the White House, because Donald Trump and his allies Andrew McCabe is considered part of a deep state conspiratorial plot to remove the president. Others consider him to be yet another casualty of the president's war on people and institutions investigating his ties to the Kremlin. The new book is called The Threat: How the FBI Protects America in the Age of Terror and Trump. Andrew McCabe joins me from our New York studio. Hello.

ANDREW MCCABE: Hi Anna Maria. How are you?

AMT: Well I'm well and thank you for joining us. The president has tweeted that you were quote planning a very illegal act that was treasonous - that's the quote - to discuss removing him from office. What do you say to that?

ANDREW MCCABE: I'd say it's just absolutely ridiculous. I mean we're pretty familiar at this point with the president's tweets and their falsehoods in the exaggerations they routinely contain, but this one really stretches the bounds. You know to throw around words like coup, and treason, things like that, inflammatory terms that are I think intentionally designed to get people's attention off the facts and focused on the false narrative that the president is trying to perpetuate.

AMT: Well let's back up a bit. There was a conversation in which you have said someone referred to possibly using the 25th Amendment which is a law that allows the removal of a president from office. What happened?

ANDREW MCCABE: So this came up in the context of a wide ranging and somewhat frenetic meeting that I had with the deputy attorney general, a gentleman name Rod Rosenstein. You have to put yourself in our shoes at that moment to understand the gravity of the situation that we found ourselves in, and the sort of things we are grappling with, things that no acting director no deputy attorney general really ever thinks they're going to have to think their way through. Is the president actually trying to obstruct justice? And did he do so by firing the director of the FBI? Does the president pose a threat to national security? So in the context of that very charged and wide ranging conversation Rod Rosenstein mentioned the 25th Amendment and kind of walked through the logic of it in his head. It really wasn't anything more than a brief mention of the concept. I certainly am not aware of any efforts that Rod took to pursue it or to raise the issue officially. I think if you know our system you understand that the deputy attorney general's not even the person that can invoke the 25th amendment effectively. So it was really just something that came off the top of his head. I think it sheds light on exactly how intense and how frenetic those times were. But it's not something that I'm aware that he actually actioned in any way.

AMT: Republican Senator Lindsey Graham promised to haul you before the Senate Judiciary Committee to explain why you were discussing what he describes as a bureaucratic coup against the president. How will you respond if there is a subpoena that comes to you on that front?

ANDREW MCCABE: You know I'll do everything I can to cooperate with the committee in any way that I can. I haven't received a request like that I certainly haven't received a subpoena at this point, but if I get a request I'll sit down and talk to my attorneys about it and do everything I can to provide the information that I have to the committee. If what they're interested in is talking about Rod's mention of the 25th amendment it will be a very short and uneventful hearing.

AMT: You make the point that it was like it was seriously discussed. You said he walked through the points, the logic.

ANDREW MCCABE: Yeah he was thinking through it. But you know, Anna, like any issue you might be grappling with colleagues and an intense moment the fact that you talk about things doesn’t mean you are doing everything that you talk about. So to characterize these conversations as a bureaucratic coup or treason is just simply not true. I mean it's not at all descriptive of the sort of conversation that we were having.

AMT: The 25th Amendment allows for the removal of a president who is believed to be incapacitated. How would incapacitated have applied to Mr. Trump at that moment in time?

ANDREW MCCABE: You know I can't even answer that for you because it's so far outside the scope of anything that I was focused on or responsible for at that time. As acting director of the FBI I am responsible for the investigations and the investigators right into it to make those sorts of decisions as to what matters do we investigate. Are we at a point with the information that we have or are obligated to open an investigation? That's really what I was folks started that at that time I wasn't really thinking about the 25th Amendment.

AMT: What's your view of President Trump?

ANDREW MCCABE: I think that President Trump is doing consistent damage to the men and women any institutions of law enforcement and intelligence in this country. I think that his constant attacks on those people in their work create the risk of undermining some of the institutions that we rely upon to preserve a free and fair democracy in this country.

AMT: Are you talking about your dream but the FBI and other intelligence institutions?

ANDREW MCCABE: That's right yes. The FBI of course is the institution I know best. But The President's comments and actions regarding how he thinks about intelligence and how he thinks about the intelligence he's given from the community are widely known.

AMT: You have related incidents where he is more willing to rely on what he hears from Russia, have you not?

ANDREW MCCABE: That's right. So there was reference to one briefing that my folks participated in at the White House and it came back from the briefing sat down for me to tell me how things went. And you know honestly they were just dumbfounded, really just struck by the things they'd heard over the course of the briefing and were struggling to kind of understand it and figure out what to do next. The president had indicated that he did not believe that the North Koreans had launched missiles which we'd all seen and had been widely discussing in intelligence circles and really everywhere else. He didn't believe they had done it. He didn't think they had the capacity to do that. And he told the briefers he didn't think they could because the president of Russia had told him that they didn't have that ability.

AMT: How did you react when you heard that?

ANDREW MCCABE: I mean just dumbfounded right. I mean it's not feedback I've ever received from any briefing I've given or participated in to any principle at any time in my career. The idea that his opinions are so off base, so contradictory to the intelligence that we have is jarring. But to understand that he is accepting the opinions and the information from our adversaries over his own intelligence professionals was really really challenging.

AMT: How did you learn that FBI Director James Comey had been fired by the President?

ANDREW MCCABE: I was summoned to the attorney general's office on the early evening of May 9th 2017. I was in the middle of a meeting with my senior executives at FBI headquarters a kind of standard five page wrap up meeting that we have every day. And one of the staff came into the conference room and told me that the Attorney General wanted to speak to me and that he wanted to see me in person right away. So I immediately thought there was sort of a problem. I didn't typically get summoned to the Attorney General's office for an immediate appearance at 5 o'clock at night. So I grab my bag and my security detail and we walked across the street to find out what was happening. You know after a brief delay I walked into the attorney general's office. He was standing there with the deputy attorney general and someone from the deputy attorney general staff. And as I crossed the office to shake his hand he said 'I don't know if you've heard but we've had to fire the director of the FBI'.

AMT: What was your reaction?

ANDREW MCCABE: You know I was both stunned and surprised but also very focused on kind of not reacting in that way. I have learned over the course of you know many many encounters, interviewing subjects and witnesses and people about emotionally fraught events and sometimes tragedies and disasters, that the best way for an investigator to react in those situations is not to react at all, and to just listen to what you're being told and to try to suppress your kind of the natural human reactions of you know a surprise or shark or anything that would convey judgment. And so that's how I reacted in the moment. I just looked at the attorney general and said 'No sir I hadn't heard that'. And so he immediately launched into a conversation telling me that he needed me to serve as the acting director. And he said that I likely would not have to do it for very long because they were thinking about appointing an interim director to serve until a permanent director could be confirmed by the Senate.

AMT: So then you talk to the President, how long after?

ANDREW MCCABE: Just about an hour later. So by the time I got back to my office, shortly after getting back to my office - which literally right across the street from the Justice Department - again another message that the President wanted to see me that night. So I went down to the White House. I'd probably about six thirty maybe seven o'clock at night it was again still early evening and I had my first meeting with President Trump, in fact actually my first meeting ever in the Oval Office.

AMT: And what was that like?

ANDREW MCCABE: Well it was kind of crazy. I mean to be perfectly honest it's an inspiring experience to walk into the Oval Office. For anyone who serves in government, it's a special place carries with it the respect and the history of the folks who have served there before, an incredibly momentous things that have happened and our country and the decisions that are made that really make you feel that as you walk through the door. And so those were the things I was thinking about as it went through the door and President Trump kind of popped up from behind his desk, stood up it came over and shook my hand. He's a big person. He's tall and solid and he sticks his arm out straight and shakes your hand vigorously. And he immediately launched in to really kind of a rapid fire monologue, really. There were there weren't any questions. He was just telling me you know- saying a lot of things about how they fired the director and it was great saying and so many people were happy about it. People in the FBI were happy about it and didn't I think it was a good thing. Things that were in complete contrast to the reality that I had just seen at FBI headquarters.

AMT: So what was the reaction?

ANDREW MCCABE: The reaction was what you would expect when the when a beloved respected leader is suddenly fired you know people were distressed and shocked. No one you know really saw this coming or understood the reasons behind it. It was a very tough time in the FBI. People were very sad. You'd see people gathering together in the hall kind of whispering in hushed tones, people crying. It was a very emotional response that I've seen among men and women in the FBI.

AMT: You were working hand in glove with James Comey and when he characterized things the way he did, what did you say to him? How did you react to that? You're now the acting director.

ANDREW MCCABE: You know it was just surprising to me it was such a contradiction from what I had seen. And then the President said to me, he said 'I heard you were part of the resistance'. And I said to him 'Well sir I am not sure I know what you mean'. And he clarified he said 'I heard you were part of the FBI that didn't like director Comey, didn't approve of the decisions that he had made. You didn't agree with all those things that he did in the Clinton email case'. And I realized that he was offering me the opportunity to adapt his narrative. I see it now as my own loyalty test. I think that was the moment at which the president was kind of pulsing me to see how I would play the situation. Would I go along with the facts in the circumstances that he was trying to engineer or was I on the other side? Was with them or was I against him? And I said to the President 'no, that's true. I was working very closely with Jim Comey' and I explained to him that I had been a part of all of those decisions that we had made in the Clinton e-mail case, that I knew some of those were controversial and some people thought differently about them, but that had been my role as deputy director. And I could see that that was not the answer he expected or wanted.

AMT: How did he respond then?

ANDREW MCCABE: He just kind of stared at me for a second. He took a beat and looked in a kind of somewhat puzzled way and then he launched back into his narrative again about how great things were and how happy people must be at the FBI. And this was a subject he came back to in all of the interactions I had with him; a phone call and another follow up meeting the next day. And then of course when I interviewed with him for the position of director which took place about a week later. So as it became clear to me over the course of these interactions that this was the line. This was a story that the president wanted me to support and it was of course contrary to the truth and it is not something that I could do.

AMT: You opened two investigations into President Trump including a counter intelligence investigation the day after that. Am I right, how quickly that happened?

ANDREW MCCABE: In the day or two following Jim Comey's firing. That's right.

AMT: What were those investigations about and why?

ANDREW MCCABE: So to understand that you have to think about the FBI as a Florida and ultimately the authority to open investigations comes to us from the Attorney General. And the way that authority is defined is: when the FBI has articulable credible facts to indicate that a threat to national security exists or that a federal crime may have been committed, then we have those facts we are obligated to open an investigation. So that's the determination we made in those days. We felt that with the firing of Jim Comey and with the president's statements in the days that followed we find that we had facts that we could not deny. Clearly formed the basis of a belief that the President may have committed a federal crime. That being obstruction of justice he may present a threat to national security.

AMT: That's pretty serious stuff.

ANDREW MCCABE: It's very serious stuff and we do it only after very thoughtful consideration, discussion with the investigators on the team who made that recommendation to me, discussions with my chief division, my chief counsel and the FBI and other lawyers who advise me on issues like this. I had several conversations with the deputy Attorney General about taking that step. And then the deputy Attorney General participated with me in a briefing to our congressional leadership where we informed them of the decision I had made and the steps that we had taken.

AMT: What was their reaction?

ANDREW MCCABE: You know it was. I keep saying surprising and how shocked I was. I need to come up with new words for that. But it was a series of surprising events over the course of a week. I laid out for that group that we referred to as the Gang of Eight - It's the leaders, the minority and majority leaders on both House and Senate and the leadership of the House and Senate intelligence committees - laid out for them the steps that I had taken and the reasons behind those steps. They had no objections, no substantive or no penetrating. Yeah really there is a pushback. And again I think that's because the facts as we knew them at that time so clearly indicated a reasonable belief that those conditions existed. You know there was really nothing else for us to do. To have failed to open a case under those circumstances I think it would have been a dereliction of duty.

AMT: Andrew McCabe but we have to stay up here for a moment and take a break for the CBC News when we return. We will continue this conversation. I am speaking with the former deputy director, former interim director as well, Andrea McCabe of the FBI. His new book is The Threat: How the FBI Protects America in the Age of Terror and Trump. He is joining us from New York City. He's in our New York City's studio and he will join us on the other side of the news. Stay with us. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

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AMT: Still to come.

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Now I like to ask you with you with your left wing [unintelligible] friends, what about the warming trend? Like where does that come now? You know all about that. I'm just asking the [unintelligible] are saying the warming trend will freeze to death.

AMT: He is not a climate scientist, he's NHL color commentator Don Cherry questioning climate change this month on Coach's Corner. Many other winter sports athletes and aficionados are actually quite concerned about what climate change will mean, not only for the planet but for their sports. We'll have more on the athlete led effort to protect our winters, later this half hour. But first more with Andrew McCabe.

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AMT: The former interim director and former deputy director of the FBI Andrew McCabe is my guest. He is the author of the new book The Threat: how the FBI Protects America in the Age of Terror and Trump. If you're just joining us we were speaking before the news. We were talking about the very high stakes counterintelligence investigations then Andrew McCabe opened. They were probing connections between the president of the United States and Russia. And so let's continue this conversation. As those investigations began, you were worried about something about their longevity. What were we worried about?

ANDREW MCCABE: I was very concerned that the work that we were doing on all the cases that we were investigating involving Russian meddling in the election and the possible relationship between Russian intelligence and the Trump campaign, you know I was concerned that those investigations might be eliminated or shut down or removed by the person who came in to take my position next. So as I mentioned earlier the attorney general - and even the President, that first night he met with him - both went out of their way to let me know that I might not be in the job long. So I wanted to make sure that the cases we had were on solid ground, that the investigative hour for which we felt should be taken were documented, and you know - as we say in the business - opened or positioned to move forward so that if anyone came in behind me with the goal of kind of eliminating those investigations they couldn't do it without establishing a clear record of their own decisions.

AMT: That's how much you were looking over your shoulder wondering where they would go. That's very telling.

ANDREW MCCABE: Yeah it was a very challenging time. I knew we were doing sensitive and important work. It was abundantly clear to us all that the president did not like the work that we were doing. He'd made many statements denigrating and kind of undermining the Russia investigation. He continues to do that obviously to this day. So yes it was a big concern of mine.

AMT: Knowing what you know now what do you think Mr. Trump's relationship is with the Russian president and with the Kremlin?,

ANDREW MCCABE: Well I don’t know that it would be hard for me to say I can say that I am absolutely confident we made the right decision to open those investigations shortly after they were opened, I mean literally days after they were opened. They were all handed over officially to the special counsel, Former Director Robert Mueller. I think we've all seen with the releases of public information to date in that investigation that Director Mueller and his team have made extraordinary progress. A number of people have been indicted several have pled guilty. You have dozens of Russian intelligence officials and people connected to them who are currently under indictment. So they have made the progress that you would expect from a Mueller investigation.

AMT: Can you rule out the idea that has been floated that Mr. Trump is a Russian asset?

ANDREW MCCABE: I can't rule that out. I anxiously await the results to see as everybody does the results of direct Mueller's investigation then hopefully will have their question answered.

AMT: You cannot rule that out. Would that mean the Kremlin considers him an asset or he would consider himself an asset.

ANDREW MCCABE: Those are great questions, Anna Maria. And I am afraid I can't shed much light on them. I'm of course not involved in the investigation and couldn't talk about that if I was.

AMT: US intelligence agencies work of course with foreign intelligence and law enforcement agencies, including Canada's RCMP and CSIS. Should Allied agencies be concerned about sharing sensitive information with the United States related to Russia because of what you cannot rule out?

AMT: Well let me say that it was one of the greatest honors, and really privileges in my in my career to be able to work with our foreign partners and particularly our partners in intelligence and law enforcement in Canada. I have many colleagues, really, and friends who I just hold the absolute highest regard for the work that we're able to do, particularly in the area of counterterrorism. You know I just had the privilege of working a number of cases and investigations with our colleagues from the RCMP and CSIS. And I can tell you from that experience their share openly sharing information of the highest quality and the most sensitive classified information that we have between our two nations is absolutely some of the most important work that we do. It is one of the ways that we've been able to protect both of our nations and all of our people from numerous terrorist attacks. So it's incredibly important to me that that work continues no matter which person is in the White House, no matter which party is in control in Washington D.C. And I am confident that the men and women in law enforcement and intelligence in the states agree with my assessment and continue to exchange information freely and productively with our Canadian counterparts. And I hope your folks do as well.

AMT: And we have seen news stories where President Trump made reference to intelligence that was believed to have come from Israel. How weary should Canadian intelligence people be in trading information right now with American intelligence people?

ANDREW MCCABE: Well I am of course aware of the situation that you're referring to and it troubled me greatly. You know I can't account for the President's decisions but I can say that there are thousands of qualified, capable, careful people in the intelligence services in this country who understand the importance of keeping that sort of information, that sensitive information, just between us. So I would simply implore your countrymen to her to give us another chance.

AMT: You are now a private citizen and you are the target of the most powerful Man in the world. There are tweets and there are all sorts of things coming from people around him from his press people. Kellyanne Conway has called you a known liar and a leaker and a serial liar. Fox News is weighing in. Your wife has been attacked in the past. What is that like for you?

ANDREW MCCABE: It's terrible. There is no other way to describe it. I mean to see your wife - and my wife's a wonderful person. She's a pediatric emergency room physician. Spent her entire life saving children in it in the E.R.in her practice. You know she decided to try to get into public life into politics in 2015 because she was so concerned about trying to expand people's, in our state in Virginia, people's access to health care. Of course it didn't work out. She wasn't elected. She returned to her medical practice. The idea that a citizen, a private citizen in this country, any private citizen, who is engaged in sports or community tries to get into public life to make things better could be viciously attacked by the President of the United States. It's something that if you had told me five years ago there could happen, I wouldn't have believed you. It's just so wildly inappropriate but inappropriate really doesn't capture it. It's cruel. It's cruel and unusual. And so that's been very hard to take. Of course doing my job while these things have been going on and kind of enduring these false tweets, these lies, the slander from the President of the United States, it's just been a surreal experience. It's sad to say that we've almost become used to it. So I think in the last year or two the president tweeted that he had never said anything bad about my wife which is just so patently ridiculous. I mean I could catalog for him the tweets in which he said horrible things about her, but there's no point to that. It's an incredibly unfortunate thing to have to live with, not just for us, but the fact that that's kind of how he chooses to conduct himself. The same sort of attacks and baseless accusations that he levies against the FBI, against the intelligence community, against other loyal public servants. It's those attacks that I believe are having a long term corrosive impact on our institutions and the people within those institutions and our ability to continue protecting America. And that to me is the core of the threat that this President poses.

AMT: We have to leave it there. Andrew McCabe, thank you for taking the time to speak with me today.

ANDREW MCCABE: Anna Maria, it's been a pleasure. Thank you.

AMT: Andrew McCabe former deputy director, former acting interim director of the FBI. His new book is the best-selling book called The Threat: How the FBI Protects America in the Age of Terror and Trump. He joined us from our studio in New York City. If you joined us partway through that conversation you'll be able to hear it in full today on the CBC Radio app, on our podcast or on our Web site cbc.ca/thecurrent.

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'Canaries in the coal mine': Skiers speak up on climate change to save winter sports

Guests: Mike Douglas, Porter Fox

AMT: You are listening to The Current on CBC Radio One and on Sirius XM. I am Anna Maria Tremonti. It's one of those jokes, stop being funny at least a decade or so, ago asking whatever happened to global warming on a particularly cold day. When the US president trotted out on Twitter now and then people roll their eyes. But when the president of the International Ski Federation does it, that leaves winter sports lovers shaking their heads. And that's just what happened earlier this month after Gian Franco Kasper head of the world's ski organization and an honorary member of the International Olympic Committee spoke with the Swiss newspaper. He referred back to last winter Olympic Games in South Korea where temperatures dipped as low as minus 30 degrees Celsius and he said: "To everyone who approached me shivering I said welcome to global warming" end quote. Mike Douglas is a free skier, a filmmaker and the chair of a group called Protect our winters Canada. We've reached Mike Douglas in Whistler B.C. Hi.

MIKE DOUGLAS: Good morning.

AMT: What was your reaction when you saw those comments from Mr. Kasper?

MIKE DOUGLAS: Well it's awful to think that you have the head of a huge organization that runs most of the competitive ski events talking like this. Although I will say not particularly surprising given the history of FIS and the way that they operate.

AMT: Well you've been on the mountain for almost 30 years. What changes have you seen on your favorite mountains?

MIKE DOUGLAS: Well I think as as winter sport athletes were kind of on the front lines of climate change. I mean as you said in the lead their climate isn't the weather that is going on right now. It's something [unintelligible[ a time and for me here living in Whistler, it's the glaciers that have really brought it into reality for me. I used to train on the Horseman Glacier at Blackcomb. And over the years you know after five or 10 years of training up there I started to see changes like 'oh that rock up there used to be down here. The ice used to fill this bowl and it no longer does'. And it wasn't long you know. It was probably about 15 years after I started training up there that I realized that that glacier would be gone in my lifetime, and that was that was pretty sobering.

AMT: So what are you and your fellow athletes at Protecting Our Winters doing when it comes to climate change then?

AMT: Well we're just trying to unite the outdoor community, the winter sports community to speak up about it because as the people that they're seeing so much of it, we're concerned obviously. We're concerned you know we're concerned about the future of humanity on this planet but we're concerned about our sports as well. You know skiing is a frontline sport when it comes to this as the mountains warming in the mountain regions, also in the Arctic, and you know. There's also a huge industry behind this. We make our livings in this way. Towns like Whistler survive based on the fact that the snow is supposed to come back every year.

AMT: And of course there are those who point out to the fact that resorts like Whistler depend on people flying in, that hey have a big carbon footprint you know snow machines, [unintelligible] skiing, global travel. How do you defend a sport like skiing on that front?

MIKE DOUGLAS: Well certainly I mean skiing is the least of our worries. When you look at the big picture. But the fact is we can-- so this is what often happens when you start talking about climate in a public space is that you know people point out to me right away 'you're a hypocrite. You fly on airplanes. You travel to go skiing' and to a certain degree for sure they're right. But we have currently set up a fossil fuel based society. And what we need to do is stop sort of pointing fingers at each other and look at like how can we find solutions to the way we are currently running the world. And the good news is is that there are solutions out there. There are things that we can do but it's going to take the will of the people to make them happen.

AMT: You did a cross-country tour de [unintelligible] protecting our winters camped out in the fall. What sort of feedback did you hear as you run across the country?

MIKE DOUGLAS: The feedback was encouraging because what we're seeing, you know guys like Gian Franko Kasper, 75 year old, people that are kind of stuck in their ways. We've sort of written them off. Where we're finding a lot of energy is in the youth and the youth are rising up and they believe in climate change a hundred percent and they also believe that we can do something about it. And so see them come out to our events, hear their stories of the personal actions they're taking and the way they're trying to sort of carry their energy into their community and activate their own communities was really inspiring.

AMT: You went to Calgary as well, didn't you?

MIKE DOUGLAS: We did.

AMT: What happened?

MIKE DOUGLAS: I mean Calgary was definitely the most spicy - I'll say - of the stops most of the time when we when we take our tour we get a lot of people that come out that feel the same way that we do. And in Calgary we had a lot of those people as well but we also had some people that didn't necessarily agree with us. And obviously there's you know the hot button topic in Calgary is the pipeline in the oil industry, and I understand that and I'm empathetic to the way things are there, but the science is clear. That's to me where I keep coming back. I keep coming back to the science. Scientists aren't alarmists. They don't scream from the roof cut rooftops very often. So when they are, which is what they are now, I think we need to listen to them okay.

AMT: Mike Douglas, thanks for speaking with me today.

MIKE DOUGLAS: Thank you.

AMT: Mike Douglas is a film maker. He's a free skier. He's the chair of the board of Protect our Winters Canada and he joins us from Whistler, B.C. My next guest has been looking into the business of skiing where the American industry focuses its lobby efforts. Porter Fox is an avid skier. For 20 years he was an editor of Powder magazine. He is also the author of Deep: The Story of Skiing and the Future of Snow. Porter Fox joined us from Brooklyn, New York. Hi

PORTER FOX: how are you doing? Thanks for having me.

AMT: Lots of things they ask you. First of all how have ski industry owners affected climate change policy in the U.S?

PORTER FOX: I would say largely by a lack of involvement in the movement of the very worst, as sort of denying that climate change is going to affect their business. And even worse than actually financially supporting legislators that deny climate and consistently vote to block things in the U.S. like the Clean Power Plan, and various climate change legislation initiatives that that really could have made a difference. A lot of those legislators coming from key states like Colorado, California, Montana, Utah, Wyoming. It's a disconnect that is just pretty hard to understand.

AMT: You've actually looked at the numbers. How much money is going from ski honor is to climate change deniers?

PORTER FOX: I mean over the years you talking hundreds of thousands of dollars. The kind of elite executive class for the ski industry ski industry owners have typically leaned fairly conservatively in their political views, you know, going back to the 1980s supporting people that were big into the energy industry. There's a great kind of irony in the states where some of those states are big energy companies like Utah and Wyoming and Montana, Idaho. So again that disconnect is very pronounced and extremely unfortunate, and it's something they have to hide from their constituents. There's not a very few skiers would appreciate that connection when those same resorts that are claiming to be kind of greening their business and lowering their carbon footprint while they're simultaneously supporting people in Congress who are blocking climate change legislation.

AMT: Don't they understand that their businesses are literally melting?

PORTER FOX: You would think so. Protect our Winters just came out with a second economic report that shows that the winter tourism industry lost more than a billion dollars in the last decade and over 17,000 jobs in low snow years compared with an average season. The math is very clear. The climate change is established and very clear the math and how this affects snow sports is very clear. The equation is simple. It's getting warmer. Snow melts above 32 degrees Fahrenheit, Zero degree Celsius where you are.

AMT: So who runs most ski resorts in the U.S.?

PORTER FOX: Most ski resorts are run by the folks who were running in the 1980s to be perfectly honest it's fairly older group that again has a kind of a conservative view. That's not across the border. There's amazing things that are happening in Aspen ski company that's really become a leader in this kind of climate change movement. There's been some progressive things happening in Squaw Valley where they're trying to change their utility. Aspen did change their utility and has helped turn Xcel, one of the largest utilities in North America, push for essentially zero emissions by 2050 which is fairly radical here in the States.

AMT: So when are you talking about that you mean so all of the energy that would be used for the snow machines, the lifts, all that stuff goes to be powered by renewables?

PORTER FOX: Absolutely. That being in Colorado. They've committed to that by 80 percent by 2030 I believe, and 100 percent reductions in emissions by 2050. And that company services [unintelligible] services most of that of the ski resort in Colorado which is really impressive. Squaw Valley, one of the biggest resorts in the lower 48 U.S. has been powered by coal for many years. They were unaware of that for many years which is shocking. But you know they've used their leverage as the clients of Liberty Utilities and they're also in the process of switching over to renewables. Other places in The States like Mount Abraham and [unintelligible], smaller resorts in the U.S. East are now generating their renewables on site with solar and wind. Which is exciting. It is not as big a footprint as these bigger utilities but it's you know it's really something, but you know we get another 400 resorts down here that aren't doing a whole lot. And that's kind of upsetting.

AMT: Yeah. It's interesting, though, what's possible. Remind us how remind us how important Snow has been on the ski slopes.

MIKE DOUGLAS: You know skiing is, as Mike was saying, is a great way to shout out from the mountain top, like 'hey where the Canaries and the coal mine'. We can see what's happening here and skiers are an affluent and powerful group that can amplify that message, but snow is an element, a vital element of the planet's heat and water cycles, really has really has been kind of overlooked. There's two billion people around the world dependent on snow melt for their primary drinking water source. Snow melt represent half of the fresh water - surface fresh water supply around the world.

AMT: So when you're talking about saving the snow for the skiing on the mountains you have but saving the snow for lots more than that.

PORTER FOX: Lots more than that. It's directly tied with the increase in wildfire throughout the U.S. West. It is directly tied to the mountain pine beetle infestation which has devastated Canada and U.S. Twenty three million acres of forest, I believe.

AMT: Porter, sorry to do this. We're running up against the clock here. Thank you for giving us your perspective on this.

PORTER FOX: Thanks for having me.

AMT: Porter Fox, avid skier, former editor a Powder magazine, author of Deep: The Story of Skiing and The Future of Snow. He joined us from Brooklyn, New York. Stay with us. Bishops gathering this week in Rome will look to Canada as an example for how to tackle clerical sex abuse. Some people are wary of that. This is The Current.

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To tackle sexual abuse, Catholic Church must match words with concrete action: survivor

Guests: Bob McCabe, Father Michael Bechard

AMT: Hello I am Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

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[Pope Praying]

AMT: Pope Francis leading an open prayer today as about 200 Catholic leaders from around the world gather at the Vatican in Rome. They have been brought together by Pope Francis to focus on the pernicious issue of sex abuse in the priesthood. After decades of misconduct and cover ups in the church, those leaders are looking to Canada for best practices. Canada of course has the dubious distinction of being home to what is considered the first major sex abuse scandal by Catholic clergy to be made public worldwide. The abuse of boys at the Mount Cashel Orphanage in St. John's. Since that time we have of course heard about the abuse of Indigenous children in residential schools and many cases of abuse in parishes large and small across the country have been exposed. Last year the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops published a one hundred eighty four page document that lays out strategies and policies for protecting children from sexual abuse by the clergy. It's caught the attention of the priest chairing this week's summit. He's holding it up as a model for other jurisdictions. Among its 69 recommendations are tougher background checks, an end to confidentiality clauses on an abuse case settlements and a requirement the bishops notify Rome when they learn of abuse and immediately appoint a delegate to investigate. For his perspective on whether this approach goes far enough I'm joined by someone who knows the reality of sexual abuse in the church. Bob McCabe was a child when he was abused by his priest. We've reached Bob McCabe in Kitchener, Waterloo, Ontario. Hello.

BOB MCCABE: Hello, Anna. Good to be here.

AMT: It's good to have you with us. I wonder what you're feeling right now as church leaders meet to talk about the kind of abuse you suffered as a boy?

BOB MCCABE: You know I guess it's a variety of emotion. There is hope. There's always hope that maybe we'll be able to turn a corner. There is skepticism. Because of my experience of being abused, there is an extreme lack of trust. I must be honest that I enter into this with a lack of trust, a lack of transparency. I've read the document protecting minors from the Canadian Conference of Bishops, and you know it's a it's a fabulous document that hopefully down the road will reduce the risk or reduce the possibility of a child - a minor - being sexually abused by a priest or by a cleric. But I really do not feel it goes far enough.

AMT: Okay, so talk to me then what's missing? What would you have liked to have seen in there?

BOB MCCABE: I would have liked to have seen - first of all - a voice from some survivors. Unless you have experienced this you cannot identify with it. Some of the language that is in there just appears too clinical. It's intellectual. It's academic. It's accurate to the point. I understand the words, but it doesn't put across the impact this has. At one point in the document it indicates that it's difficult for a bishop to hear the circumstances of the victims [unintelligible] victims experience in sex abuse. Man, it goes a lot farther than just being difficult. It totally annihilates everything that is in existence for a child. It annihilated my life. I see that now. I didn't understand it at the time, obviously. But it annihilated it, took it down another course. I have no idea what that other course or other field would have been. And only by the grace of some kind of power and much greater than anything I know on this earth, I am able to sit here and talk to you about this, and be on the other side of it but it still goes on. This trauma is still there. So there needed to be survivors at the table to have a voice.

AMT: Because that's not captured in what you're reading is what you're telling me.

BOB MCCABE: No.

AMT: Well - I know this is personal for you - can you take us back to the summer of 1963? What happened?

BOB MCCABE: It started in 1962. My abuser was put into the parish in Scarborough. I lived in Scarborough at the time. I was on the altar society. Grooming took about eight months in that ballpark. And the abuse took place in the summer of 1963. He had gained the confidence of my parents. In that period, remember historically the period of time; a priest, a caller of a priest represented that he was God.

AMT: And how old were you at this time?

BOB MCCABE: I was 11 years old at the time of the abuse.

AMT: Okay.

BOB MCCABE: And it just didn't represent God, but you didn't question a priest. So he suggested to my parents that a great trip for little Bobbie would be to go to Montreal with them because he had some business at the Notre Dame Basilica. And my parents readily agreed because they trusted him, and we went out. By the time we left the Scarborough area and hit - let's say the Oshawa area - just outside of Toronto, we start arguing but sexual matters. Very naive. I was a very naive child. I didn't know anything about sex. I didn't know anything about sexual activity or masturbation or anything like that. He got very specific as we were driving in the car. We got to Cornwall are at that point he advised that we were staying overnight and it was a single bed room and the abuse took place in that night. And it was one of feeling imprisoned. I was away from home, 11 years old, with a priest who was doing sexual things to me and I had no escape. I was terrified. You know, I was paralyzed, just paralyzed.

AMT: How old are you now?

BOB MCCABE: I am 67.

AMT: And when you tell me this, that 11 year old boy does he come back?

BOB MCCABE: He is here with us right now. Yes it is. As part of the trauma counselling that I'm going through prior to my trial that it went through in 2017 I went back to the basilica. And I had to walk - the next day after the abuse we went to Montreal may serve Mass for this priest in one of the side altars of Notre Dame Basilica Montreal - and I went back there and relive that. It was almost like a matter of heaven to bring that spirit of young Bobbie home from that place in order to be free of it. The other thing that I had to do, Anna Maria, was - in order to recover from this trauma which I held their goal ever be over I'd die with it. But at the same point I can move on is I have had the gift and the strength to be able to go to the grave side of my abuser and to actually do a letter of forgiveness, because forgiveness as a survivor for me was critical so that he didn't own me anymore. Even after all these years.

AMT: You go back to that time, when you got home were you able to tell your parents anything?

BOB MCCABE: No. I got home I remember running up the driveway. I don't remember going in the house. I don’t remember ever speaking of it. The next time I spoke of this was in 1992 when I finally told my mother for reasons that were very selfish but I told my mother at that time. So it was just about 30 years before I mentioned it to anybody.

AMT: And you make the point he was grooming your mother as well. He was mean. he was making your mother think he was just a wonderful person and she should be grateful that he was going to take you on a trip.

BOB MCCABE: That's what predators do.

AMT: How did your mother react when you told her what happened all those years later?

BOB MCCABE: I remember just going back to that moment in my mind right now and I was kneeling in front of her and just put my head in her lap and she cried. And at the time I was deep into my alcohol addiction and Mum passed maybe within a year after that. My sister told me many years later once I was in recovery that she called her after that and said we finally found out what's the matter with Bobbie.

AMT: Wow. Your dad never knew, huh?

BOB MCCABE: Never knew. He passed without knowing this had occurred.

AMT: And so you mention alcoholism. What was your life like for so long before you were able to get help?

BOB MCCABE: I was a tornado in the lives of everyone that I came into touch with. Didn't know and I thought I had a handle on it. Three marriages, children that I basically abandoned and went on with with being able to work and sustain a life. But alcohol was used every day. You know I’m not saying that this abuse necessarily- I dent know if I am an alcoholic - and I'm a recovered alcoholic now by the way - because of the abuse. I'll never know that. My abuser took the ability to know that away. But I know it certainly add fuel to the fire. I know gave me ease and comfort. I know it took away the incessant chatter of a thousand monkeys, the nightmares and the night terrors.

AMT: And those continued for years?

BOB MCCABE: For years. Until it didn't, and then it stopped working and somehow I got into recovery in 2010. And it wasn't really until 2013 - Christmas day of 2013 - that I revisited-- the thought of the abuse came back and I relived the abuse on Christmas day of 2013, and shortly after that the litigation started and we moved forward with the litigation which resulted in a trial in May of 2017 and it's currently, it was appealed by the church.

AMT: What was the original decision?

BOB MCCABE: I won. It was against the Archdiocese of Toronto because the priest had passed away. So the judicial vicar had come in and apologised. They admitted that it had taken place and it was wrong and it should not have happened. The archdiocese has taken responsibility and liability for this. So based on it was just a matter of what was the degree of damages done and what was the award [unintelligible] is. Within our society damages are equated by dollars signs. And The Church appealed that decision and, to date as I said you’re talking to you, there still not been a decision rendered by the Appeal Court of Ontario.

AMT: So in other words you had a settlement but you have seen nothing.

BOB MCCABE: Nothing. No. And that's the other thing that this doesn't address. I think this is important Anna Maria. This document is about how can we prevent. How can we create a culture in the ecclesiastic community that will prevent this kind of thing happening and that's fabulous and we need it. But my experience with the church is once they handed over to the judicial process they handed over to the lawyers and then the insurance companies. The church hides behind that. This document and no document I have seen addresses that issue of historical sexual abuse said is currently or is coming up to being dealt with in the judicial courts.

AMT: It that's interesting given the Catholic church everyone must confess the sins of the past to move forward.

BOB MCCABE: Yeah we have some work to do on that one, don't we?

AMT: So you say that you made a visit to the grave of this priest and forgave him.

BOB MCCABE: I read an eight page letter of forgiveness.

AMT: Yes the church is trying to seek forgiveness I guess with this summit. Do you think that's what it should be doing, seeking forgiveness?

BOB MCCABE: I think forgiveness is critical. I think is vital but it is-- It's like right now and Pope Frances as you know and I truly mean God bless him. But apologies are not enough. You know I am involved in a fellowship of people where we've given up the right to apologize and I feel the church has given up the right to apologize anymore. What they need to do is make amends and amends, amends means to set it right and to gain forgiveness is one thing, but that also means that your actions have to match your words.

AMT: And what does that mean? Does that mean monetary settlements? Does that mean the frocking of more are members of the Catholic clergy? Does that mean actual criminal trials?

BOB MCCABE: It means all of that. It means in addition to that that we don't move priests around. Everybody is heard how priests would move from one parish to another. You deal with a transparency that does not exist today. There is no transparency. In this document they talk about transparency and there is no transparency. They've just defrocked the bishop or the cardinal from.

AMT: Theodore McCarrick the US Cardinal. He is the highest ranking Catholic person to be expelled from the church.

BOB MCCABE: But even on the local level let's say from my experience, so I could speak to it Anna Maria. My experience's once this went to trial the church says yeah we're really sorry that happened. And they meant it. The judicial [unintelligible] meant it. I have no reason not to believe him, but once they handed it over to the church - in my experience, in my view, in my opinion - hides behind the lawyers saying well there's nothing we can do. It's in the lawyers hands.

AMT: So the policy is laid out by the Canadian bishops then the document that you read had been in place, if the conversations happening in the Vatican right now were happening in the early 60s, do you think something might have been different for you?

AMT: Maybe it would have given my abuser time to pass. Maybe it would have reduced the number that are now coming out in historical sexual abuse cases. You know I also revisited the church in Scarborough where the grooming took place which is right beside the school that I attended. And when I went there and went into the school and talked to the principal and I went into the church and did the visitation. When we were leaving, it was recess, and I saw all the little kids running around, Grade 1 2 3 4 kids and it took me right back to when I was that age running around. And all you want is for them to be safe. That's all we want. And I'm positive 98 percent of the people in the church want the same thing, but you can't by committee change the mind of an abuser. You can't by committee change the thinking of a predator and that's what these priests are.

AMT: Bob McCabe, thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.

BOB MCCABE: Anna Maria, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for bringing this to the front.

AMT: Bob McCabe. He's in Kitchener, Waterloo, Ontario. My next guests will be watching closely to see what does come from the conversations happening at the summit of catholic leaders in the Vatican. Father Michael Bechard is the director of the office of the campus ministry at Kings University College. He's with the dioceses of London. He's joining us from London, Ontario. Hello.

FATHER MICHAEL BECHARD: Good morning.

AMT: What were you thinking as you listened to my last guest?

FATHER MICHAEL BECHARD: You know I got to say that I'm sitting here in a studio in London right now in a lot of room by myself and I'm physically ill, you know hearing what Mr. McCabe's spoke about, because I think the stories he speaks about are ones that are not uncommon in the lives of abusers or people who have been abused rather periods of grooming and then a crippling life after the abuse. And I'm almost without words right now.

AMT: How prevalent is abuse within the Catholic Church? What are the numbers of the number of children abused over the last say three decades even, and the number of priests convicted or defrocked?

FATHER MICHAEL BECHARD: I think there has been a decrease in the numbers of people being abused in the last 30 years. The Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops issued a document back in '92, entitled From Pain to Hope. It began to outline our policies to safeguard minors and vulnerable persons in our community. Certainly is not as strong as the current document that was being referenced, but I think a lot of the cases are more historical than they are current, certainly doesn't justify it.

AMT: Do we know any numbers though? Do we actually have hard numbers in Canada?

FATHER MICHAEL BECHARD: No but you could look at sites on the web and it leads me to believe that there have been thousands of cases and those are outside residential schools. I know on our own dioceses are hundreds of children that have been abused and that doesn't include the abuse of vulnerable adults, or whether it's abuse of power by clergy in our parishes.

AMT: So there's a set of guidelines produced by the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops to protect children from clerical sexual abuse. You've read it is it enough?

FATHER MICHAEL BECHARD: You know I think again just to reiterate, Mr. McCabe said it's a good document and I think it offers a lot of good points and a lot of great guidelines but it's always going to be one of enforcement. I know one of our diocese in the last number of years we've had numerous training sessions where are the clergy and lay employees of our dioceses have been brought together to listen to the stories of survivors of clerical abuse, that there are ongoing yearly gatherings where we discuss this, and new initiatives that need to be put in place. I know that in the 25 years now that I've been ordained a priest we've been required to provide police checks. We need to be screened for working with vulnerable populations. So I think we're moving in the right direction. I - like Mr. McCabe - I'm also skeptical because I think you know all these policies and guidelines are important but the question really comes down to one of enforcement and how do we better inform men and women in our churches that are going to be engaged in public ministry.

AMT: And so is there something missing from the document that would guide that?

FATHER MICHAEL BECHARD: I think one of things that the document is missing is hearing the stories of survivors and their own personal reflections. I am also in recovery and in the process of the recovery have met men and women who have been abused by priests and by religious. And you know that's that's radically reshaped and reformed how I understand my own priesthood and how I understand how we need to respond to the crisis. I think a lot of our work needs to be done before men are ordained to the priesthood or to religious life. I think we probably need to begin having more honest conversations about human sexuality in our seminaries in our diocese information days. I think we need to stop demonising gay and lesbian people in our community. I think we need to make some distinctions between homosexuality and the scourge of pedophilia in our churches. I think there's a lot that we need to do.

AMT: And when you say you're in recovery, what does that mean?

FATHER MICHAEL BECHARD: I really struggled with drinking for a long time when I was younger and I didn't like the direction that my life was going and I chose through a 12 step program to put that aside and to begin to live a new way of life.

AMT: And how has that informed how you move forward with the larger community in the clergy and in your dioceses in terms of the conversations that you have to try to help people move forward?

FATHER MICHAEL BECHARD: You know I've said to many people in Alcoholics Anonymous that I work upstairs but in many respects I found God downstairs in the rooms of recovery. It was been such a grace for me is that in AA conversations that are really based on radical honesty and on radical transparency. And I think the lessons that I have learned in recovery, I've tried to bring in to my ministry, into my time in the classroom, in my dealings with survivors. I'm good friends with survivors who are older, some who are much younger, older sisters who have been abused by priests. And I think we have a long long way to go.

AMT: Older sisters you mean nuns.

FATHER MICHAEL BECHARD: Correct.

AMT: Yes. You talk about radical transparency and that often seems to be the problem. Why do you think some in the church have been so afraid of the transparency?

FATHER MICHAEL BECHARD: I think probably for a couple other reasons. I think one of the reasons is that there is a desire on the part of some to protect the institution, probably to protect the institutions assets reputation. But I think in not being transparent what we've also done is that we've lost our ability to bear witness and other things that we are doing very well. I'm involved in a number of initiatives here in the city and across the country that really work at building capacity with the poor and the needy and the vulnerable, but it's difficult to have those conversations and to kind of further that agenda and bring people into those conversations when you walk into a room and the first thing that assumed - often as a priest now - is that somehow you've been engaged or you've been complicit in abuse. So I almost wonder if if we actually can't advance the Gospel or the message of Jesus until we bring some sort of resolution to these crimes.

AMT: It's interesting because we're hearing those who say what Pope Francis is doing isn't going far enough. We also know there is a real push against the kind of changes he's trying to bring into the Vatican. Where you see that going?

FATHER MICHAEL BECHARD: You know I'm a big fan of Pope Francis and I think the agenda that he's been pushing forward since his election as pope has been a very positive one. I think he's part of a structure, an institution that has a very particular way of doing things which has not always been transparent. We're a very big institution and we're very complicated bureaucracy. And I think in the same way that it would take a large boat, a large ship on the ocean to turn just because of its sheer size. I think we look at the sheer size of the Catholic Church, any sort of movement is also going to be one that takes place over time. I think too with Francis, one of the things that he's spoken about over and over again is that you know we can put together new lives and new policies, new guidelines and new documents but the things that that's most required of all of us - clergy and lay the alike - is a real conversion of heart, that somehow we need to put on the mind and heart of Christ and to really bring the church back to what it should be, which is I think a place of safety and healing for all people.

AMT: Father Bechard it's good to hear what you think. Thank you for taking the time did to me today.

FATHER MICHAEL BECHARD: My pleasure.

AMT: That is Father Michael Bechard. He is with the dioceses of London Ontario. The director of the office of campus ministry at King's University College. That is our program for today's day with Radio 1 for Q. Grammy, Tony Academy Award winning song duo Benj Pasek and Justin Paul are on the program to talk about their hit Broadway show Dear Evan Hansen. And after our conversation about how to save our winters we're going to leave you with some winter inspired Canadian music. This is Gordon Lightfoot and a song for winter's night. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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