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The Current Transcript for February 19, 2019

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

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VOICE: The ministers of finance of the provinces, all of them, they treated me with vulgar words. I mean I had everything. They attacked personally.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Long before there was a MeToo movement, around the time in the 70s when feminism was supposedly flourishing, Monique Begin was elected to Ottawa, one of only five women back then. On her first day in Parliament, a guard tried to bar her from the house and sent her instead to the public gallery. As the Minister of Health, her provincial male counterparts were dismissive and verbally abusive. She would win on healthcare, but her fight for other universal programs stalled and she would learn repeatedly that she would be paid less than men doing the same work, both inside government and outside. In an hour, Monique Begin shares her views on politics and equality then and now. Also today, when Talal Derki convinced the al-Qaeda-related group al-Nusra to let him live with and film a jihadi dad with his six boys in Syria, he knew he had the makings of a great documentary that could kill him.

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VOICE: I was an actor for two and a half years, without any possibility to make any mistake. Mistake in playing this role, it cost me my head.

AMT: In the end, he captured the contradictions of a loving father, indoctrinating his six young boys with extremist ideology. Now it's a contender for the Academy Awards. Talal Derki joins me in half an hour. But at a time when the Trudeau government is under fire over allegations related to influence and preferential treatment for a Quebec company and now facing the resignation of the key adviser in the PMO, we're starting with the convoy making its way to Parliament Hill and the anger that's fueling it.

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VOICE 1: We're sick of being ignored by the federal government.

VOICE 2: It's bull. It's not fair anymore.

VOICE 3: Ottawa needs to pay attention to us.

VOICE 1: It's just time for us to be heard.

AMT: I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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As pro-pipeline convoy reaches Ottawa, leader says protest was years in the making

Guests: Glen Carritt, Monte Solberg

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Sounds of car and truck horns.

AMT: They burned a lot of gas and travelled many kilometres in the last few days to protest Ottawa's policies on the oil industry. That would be the United We Roll convoy, which set out from Red Deer, Alberta last Thursday. Today they arrived at their destination, Parliament Hill, where they wanted those horns to be heard over the din of the government's political crisis. Concerns over oil and gas, a lack of progress on pipelines to get it to market, the collapse of jobs and the other knock on effects across the economy, have been fuelling this protest. But there are other messages too inside the convoy, including concerns about immigration and so-called open borders. Glen Carritt is leading the convoy. He's also a counsellor with the town of Innisfail, Alberta. We reached him before the convoy started moving again in Arnprior, Ontario. Hello.

GLEN CARRITT: Good morning, how are you?

AMT: Well I'm curious to know what the mood is right now in the convoy as you near your destination?

GC: It is, we're so excited and overwhelmed with all the support and people that came out to join us on the way. Each town we went to, there were hundreds and at the end of the line was about 1500 or 2000 people waiting for these trucks to come in. They waited two hours. We're pretty excited to get these trucks up there and have our voices heard.

AMT: How would you describe the people taking part in your convoy?

GC: These are grassroots hardworking Canadians that are tired of not having jobs across Canada, just in not just in Western Canada. This is you know this is United We Roll, so it's all about all of Canada nda these are grassroots hardworking people that want to rally together and they traveled 4000 kilometres, you know five days to get out here and have that happen.

AMT: What's the message you want to bring from Alberta to Ottawa with the convoy?

GC: We want this country reunited. We want our government, whatever that government may be, and the present government's not listening that Canada is together and we do want to work together. We do care about our energy sector. We need to get pipelines in-ground immediately and we need to abolish Bill C-48 and Bill C-69 and the carbon tax. And these issues need to be taken care of as well as the UN Compact. These are all issues that are happening with a completely disconnected government and they need to start listening to the people.

AMT: Bill C-48 of course is a ban on oil tanker traffic along BC's northern coastline. Bill C-69 is the Impact Assessment Act that replaces the Environmental Assessment Act. How does the Global Compact fit into that?

GC: Well it's an issue that needs to be addressed and however that is, it's a big issue and there's lots going on. Bill C-48, the tanker ban, if you go down to a mile off the coast in BC into the States, there's all kinds of tankers running you know all over the world from there, yet we have a tanker ban on our own oil, it makes absolutely no sense. As well as Bill C-69, we've been over regulated or regulated to a point where we can make things happen in the oil patch, but Bill C-69 will make so many over regulations that we won't be able to get the oil out of the ground.

AMT: What is it about the political moment right now that compels you to make this trek?

GC: This didn't just happen overnight. This has been going on for four years with the complete disconnect of what's going on with Mr. Trudeau and we've been having rallies out in Alberta for four months and you know they're just not listening to us out here. So you know we wanted to get this convoy out there so that our government would realize that Canada is connected and reunited and what this convoy proved was that that is what happened. You couldn't believe the support that we got all the way Ontario, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Alberta, BC, everywhere and we've got trucks coming out from the east. This is a united country.

AMT: And so I want to talk more about the message you want to give the politicians when you get to Ottawa because the message doesn't seem to be just about oil and gas. Again, you know there's a sign on a vehicle that says, No UN, Globalism, No open borders, Charge Trudeau with treason, why that message?

GC: Well you know we don't condone any hate or any of that. We are, the UN Compact needs to be looked at. The Canadian government and the Canadian people need to control the borders and that's an issue and it's a big issue. I guess what we have to ask ourselves is turn it back on to why are those messages out there when we have a government that's so disconnected that there's so many messages. So you know that, I turn it back to him and ask why we have people that are so, so frustrated.

AMT: There were other convoy groups planned, but they dropped out. We spoke to Cody Battershill cell in Calgary. He's a founder of Canada Action, a non-profit advocacy group. Listen to what he said.

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VOICE: So we didn't send our convoy because there was some unexpected challenges. We could not anticipate or mitigate and we didn't want any confusion. Part of that was confusion around at the time what was labelled the yellow vest rally. Canada Action is respectful, positive and non-partisan and we've always been very much focused on our mandate of supporting the energy sector, the natural resource sector, focused on pipelines and good policy to supporting Canadian families. And we decided instead to continue doing the rallies that we've been doing, which have been very successful for us. The main issue with yellow vest is it's from France against things that are happening in France and it spread elsewhere, but we're very much focused again on being inclusive, including all Canadians in this conversation because we all win when the resource sector is strong.

AMT: Glen Carritt, he's uncomfortable with the affiliation with the yellow vest movement. He says it's sent mixed messages. What do you make of that criticism?

GC: Of course he is because I can tell you that Cody Battershill probably never came to any rally and saw actually what good-hearted, working, peaceful Canadians are all about. But if anybody and challenge anybody including Cody Battershill to go to any rally and see that we are peaceful people. These are just hardworking Canadians. It doesn't matter what you wear. It doesn't matter. As long as you're peaceful and respectful, that's what we want to come up and have our voices heard on Parliament Hill.

AMT: And you mean peaceful, you're non-violent. No actual physical violence, but a lot of people are concerned about some of the messaging again around immigration and borders. I'm going to play you a clip of Bernie Farber with the Canadian Anti-Hate Network. Listen to him.

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VOICE: When you have a populist movement like this arising over issues like the pipeline or anything else that doesn't have any guideline, no structure to it, it's ripe for people, especially in racist movements and white supremacist movements to infiltrate, to try and take over because there's nothing to control them not doing that. If they're not going to take action against hate mongerers and bigots who attach themselves like leaches to an organization like this, if they're not going to be burned off from the very beginning, then they will be judged by the company that they keep.

AMT: What do you say to what he says?

GC: Yeah what I say to that is that it's unfortunate what happened in France and Canadians are peaceful and you know it's a brand new, it is an organised, it's a new organisation and I agree that there needs to be leadership and where we get our sources from, where we should be getting our sources from is when you drive around the country and see all the peaceful people that come out to show their support for the oil and gas industry and the motto of the yellow vest, but instead people are taking all of their information from a Facebook page that can't be controlled. We have no interest and there is actually people that are diligently trying to work to weed out those type of people.

AMT: Yeah you're talking about a Facebook page of a man in Sault Ste. Marie who has posted that the immigration minister is "a disgusting defect" infected with Islam.

GC: Sure. You know I don't have time to spend a whole bunch of time on Facebook. You know we have our own page and we do our own stuff and I like I said, if the source is a Facebook page that you're getting it, that's you know I can't control that.

AMT: Right, but you are an elected official too. How do you deal with that?

GC: Well this convoy is an opportunity to have our voices heard with the disappointment in the current government and that the government needs to listen to the people. I'm an elected official that listens to the people where I'm at and I like that motto and I feel I've done well with that motto and that's what people have to do. So this really has nothing to do with me as a town councillor, this is me as a hardworking businessman that has an oil and gas fire and safety company in Alberta, BC and Saskatchewan, Manitoba and I see the writing on the wall that if we don't care our energy sector, then our whole country is in trouble.

AMT: What kind of reception do you expect from the power brokers in Ottawa today?

GC: You know I think we've had nothing, but positive reception from landowners, veterans, ranchers, Indigenous, you know people are rallying behind this.

AMT: What do you need to hear from officials in Ottawa?

GC: I need to hear that we're going to get immediate action with pipelines. That there's going to be a plan. Like you know I don't expect they're going to put a shovel in the ground tomorrow just cause we rolled trucks up, but we need immediate action. We need Bill C-48 abolished. We need Bill C-69 abolished and we need the carbon tax abolished. These are programs that will not work in this country.

AMT: Well thank you for speaking with me. We'll be watching to see what happens. Thank you.

GC: Thank you. I appreciate it.

AMT: Glen Carritt, town councillor in Innisfail, Alberta, he's leading the United We Roll convoy to Ottawa. The convoy from western Canada to Ottawa is taking a road well traveled. Political alienation and the populist movements that can spring from that alienation have a long tradition in Alberta and the West. Monte Solberg is a former member of parliament from Medicine Hat, Alberta. He sat with the Reform Party, later the Canadian Alliance Caucus and was later a Conservative cabinet minister in the government of Stephen Harper. Monte Solberg is in Palm Springs, California today. Hello.

MONTE SOLBERG: Hello Anna Maria.

AMT: What were you thinking as you listened to Mr. Carritt describe his reasons for leading this convoy?

MS: Well I think I was thinking those are legitimate reasons, especially on the oil and gas side. People in Alberta are hurting. You're seeing all kinds of communities that have an oil and gas based economy, see very high levels of unemployment and bankruptcy and just a real loss of hope. For a generation you know oil and gas has made Alberta an economic leader and in fact helped lead the country in many respects in terms of creating jobs and opportunity. And all of that is gone now, despite the fact that you know oil prices came back up and went down again, but Alberta and the country never enjoyed, never was able to really capture or capitalize on that increase in prices and so people are very frustrated.

AMT: Are there common threads here shared with populist movements that we've seen over the years in Western Canada?

MS: Oh yeah,. absolutely. You know just thinking about some of the things Mr. Carritt was saying and I mean I've heard that kind of frustration more than once in the past just with respect to Ottawa not listening. When I won my first election in 1993, one of the things that resonated at the door was you know we're here to take your message to Ottawa, not the other way around and people really rallied around that idea. And I think he's correct. I think there is a real disconnect and you know I appreciate the prime minister has been out a few times to Alberta to talk to the chamber and that kind of thing, but there's a real sense that people in Ottawa aren't listening and there's a lot of talking points and there's not much sincerity behind it and that you know there's not a lot of the oil and gas industry at all. And the sooner that they can move away from it, the happier they'll be and I think there is a lot of evidence for that, the lack of enthusiasm over energy. East would be a good one, you know the absolute ban on tankers that made Northern Gateway not viable and then of course just the delays including on transmountain including almost the very first thing they did was delay hearings around transmountain for three or four and months and then they you know larded the whole thing up with all these new regulations and really an almost impossible process going forward for new pipelines under Bill C-69.

AMT: Alberta was landlocked when you were in government too though?

MS: It was.

AMT: What's the difference. Did you build pipe lines?

MS: Yeah we did. We built several. We built the anchorx loop. We built Keystone XL, pardon me Keystone, not XL, Keystone. Alberta Clipper. We doubled the amount of oil that was coming out of the Western sedimentary base and when that government was in power.

AMT: So why, is that really because now the U.S. is using those pipelines going south that Alberta can't?

MS: Yeah I mean so a lot of the oil that we still produce would go to the Gulf Coast refineries because that's the kind of refinery that, those refineries require the heavy oil that we're producing. It either comes from Venezuela or maybe Mexico or it comes from Alberta. So Keystone XL when it gets built will be helpful. And of course line three will eventually get built and in fact Enbridge is saying it'll be done by the end of the year, which is great. That's just an upgrade to an existing pipeline and that will all be very helpful. But in the end you know our industry is going to continue to prosper, we'll have to find new markets because the Americans are producing so much oil, they're our biggest customer and also our biggest competitor.

AMT: And is Ottawa the problem? The big five companies in the oil sands pulled in $46.6 billion in aggregate gross profit in 2017. They paid out $13.5 billion in shares.

MS: And that's a good thing. I mean we want those companies to prosper.

AMT: But a lot of people were losing their jobs in the middle of that, even while those companies were pulling in those profits.

MS: Well they have to make a profit to continue to operate. And of course, just remember that those profits come back to the people of Canada in the form of returns in their pension plans and of course ultimately revenues for governments of all kinds, including the federal government. So these are all good things, but to the degree it can continue to prosper more, all Canadians benefitted. I think it was in 2014 Anna Maria, that Alberta produced all the net new jobs in Canada. And that meant that it was Alberta that was helping pull every province along in creating jobs for poor people from whereever in the country. And if we can continue to have that happen, I think that's a very good thing.

AMT: So let's get back to the issue of the alienation that comes with the frustration of what Albertans and others are feeling about the oil industry. You heard the talk of the anti-immigration rhetoric that seems to be embedded in some people in this movement. Why do you think that anti-immigration sentiment has been entwined with the message about the oil and gas sector?

MS: Well it's an old story. I mean whenever the economy is bad, we seem to see people reach for this and it's unfortunate. You know immigration has been one of the things that made Canada unique and strong and a lot has been done to ensure that the immigration system in Canada is one that really helps build the economy, but it's also true that people have legitimate concerns about people walking across the border and the prime minister's very unfortunate tweet about welcoming people to Canada. All of those things I mean, unfortunately you know people become say things that are too sweeping when they talk about immigration and I think we do need to differentiate legitimate concerns and proposals that could actually address some of the concerns about people wandering across the border in large numbers and you know Canada not really being prepared for it versus things that verge on and sometimes cross the line into actual hateful comment and discussion.

AMT: How did Reform deal with that kind of thing?

MS: Well you know, again I was thinking about this as Mr. Carritt was speaking and Preston Manning used to say that a bright light attracts a lot of bugs and it's true. And what we did of course is as soon as we found them out we ejected them from the party and that happened on a number of occasions and over time we were eventually able to sort of beat that back. You know when you have sort of a movement like this and you don't have the same kinds of controls it becomes much more difficult. So the obligation is on you know Mr. Carritt and his organization to find these people as much as they can and denounce them and to be very firm in denouncing them. But I think the obligation is also on the media and on the rest of Canadians to say you know people attaching themselves doesn't obviously mean that everybody has those beliefs and that the issues that people are pushing aren't necessarily legitimate because you've got some of these people who are on the fringes.

AMT: Mr. Solberg we're almost out of time, but I've got to ask you before I let you go. Gerald Butts has resigned in the midst of the SNC-Lavalin issue with and Jody Wilson-Raybould. What are you thinking?

MS: Well I mean it was a shock, but in a sense it wasn't. There was a lot of pressure for something that happened on all of this. I mean I was you know he'll be missed. He was certainly somebody who played a very influential role, was starting to play a role in the election campaign and I think that's where he'll be really missed. But that's also assuming that he won't have something to do with things, not necessarily as a government official, but maybe as somebody who's employed by the party and I guess we'll have to wait and see whether that actually happens.

AMT: And I guess some of your former colleagues on the Hill will be asking lots of questions today, but we have to leave it there. Monte Solberg, thank you for your time.

MS: Absolutely. Thank you.

AMT: Monte Solberg, former Conservative cabinet minister in the Harper cabinet. We reached him today in Palm Springs, California. Stay with us the news is next and then we're talking about an Oscar-nominated documentary and a man who risked his life to get the story. This is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Director who lived undercover with jihadists calls it 'most dangerous thing I did in my life'

Guests: Talal Derki

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come, Monique Begin has fought some of the toughest battles in this country's public life. From ensuring equal access to health care to standing up for herself as a female parliamentarian and cabinet minister, when that was still mostly unheard of. In half an hour, Monique Begin joins me to talk about her life in politics. But first, Of Fathers and Sons.

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VOICE: When I was a child, my father taught me to write down my nightmare so they would not visit me again and now it's time to write down the longest nightmare I've ever lived.

AMT: That is a translation of Syrian-German filmmaker, Talal Derki, from the trailer for his Oscar-nominated documentary, Of Fathers and Sons. It takes us deep in to Idlib province in northern Syria, a hot bed of Islamic extremism controlled by the al-Nusra front, a jihadist group aligned with al-Qaeda and it takes us inside the home and life of a jihadist fighter. It is the kind of access that is virtually unimaginable for most documentary makers, but that's because Talal Derki did to gain access was virtually unimaginable. Though he identifies as a moderate liberal Muslim, he went undercover in Syria. He posed as an extremist sympathizer and won the trust of the people who he needed permission from. He went on to spend two and a half years living with a jihadist named Abu Osama and his family. The film focuses on the father and his six sons and gives us a rare glimpse into the contradictions of a loving dad who tries to ensure hatred and extremism are passed down to the next generation. Talal Derki joins me from Culver City, California near Los Angeles where he'll be attending the Academy Awards this weekend. Hello.

TALAL DERKI: Hi Anna. How are you?

AMT: I'm very well thank you and it's really nice to be able to talk to you. It means you're safe and you're out of there. First of all, I want to ask about Abu Osama. How did you find him?

TD: Yeah Abu Osama, I mean thank you for this introduction. So Abu Osama is a father in the Al-Nusra Front. He's the father of the kids, he's one the main character and in this structure of the film, he's anti-protagonist like anti-hero. He's the present the evil, the bad values and who worked very hard and deceit through all the film, how the education, how he trained, how he brainwashed or let's say how he guide his kids to be member of the jihad and to be member of the coming caliphate. So I found him, actually I found the kids first through many cameramans I worked with in the ground and one found them and in Sharia camp and we get some image. We did some interviews with the kids and I loved them a lot and I thought they are really like enthusiastic, beautiful and have a kind of humour, and like spontaneously they are very good to start to focus about them and about their path until they become jihadists. Then I know someone from my previous film, like a guy who become a leaderhip in Al-Nusra Front. So he helped me, he know the father. They are old friends. They were in prison together before, and now they both are like working for the same purpose.

AMT: So when you first said you wanted to do this, were you using your real name?

TD: No I used a nick name, but some like the main people they know my name, which like I didn't have before any big statement or interviews which can be badly heard by them.

AMT: Okay, so you go and you see Abu Osama and you start filming and there's a scene in the film where he introduces you to his six boys. They're, most of them are named after famous or notorious 9/11 jihadists.

TD: Yeah let me tell you about this. Like he named his oldest son Osama because in 2003 because he loved Osama bin Laden and then he got Ayman, he named him Ayman because he love Ayman Zawahiri. He named Khattab because he love Khatab. He named Hammad Omar and Hammad Omar was born in 9/11 and this was for him like gift from God and he named him Hammad Omar because he loved the leader of the Taliban in Afghanistan, Mohammed Omar. So as you see, all in all, those kids I went to film with the kids which they don't have any chance to be something different.

AMT: And of course his name is Abu Osama, which means Father of Osama. So Osama being the first born son again named after Osama bin Laden. You show moments though of this jihadist where he's so affectionate with his boys. He's cuddling them, he's hugging the little one. Were you expecting that?

TD: Yes. I mean this is usually, this is part from the reality. I mean to love someone and to send him to his destiny, like to sacrifice with him, this is like kind of paradox. This is what's happening. Even those who do terrorist stuff, they love their kids, but look at the result. Like he present himself or to himself, as a lovely father, cuddling, kissing his small kids. At the same time he sent his oldest son, 13-years-old, to the front line.

AMT: And you show those young kids in training and I was really struck. At one point they're lying on the ground in a row and their teacher fires bullets, like a loaded gun, at sort of like just inches away from their head so that they sit up or inches away from their feet. Like it's terrifying to watch that and that's how they're training them.

TD: Yeah and you see the kids like in fact, you see the kids at night, they are scared, they're afraid, they talk between themselves because they want to run from the camp because they're scared and they don't care. So you see the moment that the child who's resisting, this is captured in the film. Before, after like half an hour in the film, you see them get used and they start to enjoy this.

AMT: So when you, you spent a lot of time talking to Abu Osama, the dad. What was he hoping for in Syria? What did he want to happen with this war?

TD: He don't care about Syria actually. For him, it's all the lands should be the land of Islam under the black flag of the caliphate. It should be one caliphate, it should be all around the world, and this is his mission, that he can travel from Syria to Japan without using passport, like Isis was dreaming, as al-Qaeda is dreaming, al-Nusra and all those jihadist groups. So their names are not important actually. They are, they have the same goal. This is Abu Osama's goal.

AMT: And you know he's living in what appears to be a very meager existence. How did he support his family?

TD: He sell exclusive stuff. This is his profession. Before that he was in prison, before the prison he had a factory of stones, like broken stones to pieces for construction. And they have a big land in their own village so they are as a family, they are rich before.

AMT: We see him knocking TNT out of an unexploded ordnance, which of course is very dangerous.

TD: Yes I mean, following his step is the most dangerous thing I did in my life. You even follow him in the area where it's full with mines and explosives. Working with him in the explosive having all this thing that he's a target that many people will want to kill him and you are with and you are walk one meter away from him. Second most dangerous thing that they will figure out about my purpose, about my background, as a secular, as a Kurdish, then it can cost me my life and they will kill me easily, like, just because I'm not like them.

AMT: You spend two and a half years. Did you ever go out or are you with them the whole two and a half years?

TD: No, I was back and forth because I'm in contact almost every day with the family. So when I hear something happened or there's an event because this is the real moment of the real events.

AMT: Well yes we are allowed to see how they think and what they do because you just keep rolling and let them speak for themselves, but I want to ask you more about the danger then. Obviously if they had found out about you, you could be killed.

TD: Absolutely.

AMT: And so every time you go back in, you don't know what they know.

TD: This is why I used to speak with the main character and some others around him very often -- just to witness this from the voice, like if something went wrong, then like in the long conversation you can notice that there, something went wrong.

AMT: It had to be very stressful for you.

TD: It's very stressful because you have to keep, I was directing for sure, but at the same I was an actor for two and a half years without any possibility to make any mistake. Mistake in playing this role, it cost me my head. I have to play this role. Even when I am in Germany, back to my real life, I have to keep this. Like sometimes some being in party, drinking alcohol, someone make photos and then you have two jump and you are inside the frame and then you have to jump to him and ask him to delete this photo. So nothing can go out in public that can put me in dangerous or change the concept about me.

AMT: Now Talal, you have a wife and a child in Berlin. I'm guessing your wife must have been stressed about this shoot as well then.

TD: Yeah, I mean she's part of the project in a way that she's also assistant director and she worked hard to make this happen and she was one by one, like she was the one who I used to tell her all my fears and she when I'm psychologically broken, she tried always to make me calm. Because it's really sometime I lose my power and I get close to cry and say I couldn't handle this anymore. I won't go back. This is very heavy, I couldn't continue playing like this, except all of this because I'm there, I was alone.

AMT: At one point we see him in basically a sniper nest and he shoots someone. And he sees somebody come to help that person, and he's calling for another gun because he wants to shoot the guy dead before anybody can get to him. And you're there. Obviously your photographer is rolling on this. You're witnessing it. What is it like to watch that?

TD: I mean this is the most treasure interview you can see in non-fiction films -- your character speaking from deep in heart about his son, and then at the same time, he was like with his eye on his sniper, and he shoots someone in the other side of the front line. So he killed someone while he's talking about how much he love his son. This is the paradox you know.

AMT: That's the power of the film. The man who loves his boys, who kisses them and holds them and talks about them, is the man who will shoot someone else's son. I want to ask you, he does talk about his eldest son, Osama. Talk to me a little bit about Osama because Osama is the one who continues on in his jihadist training. What did you think of that boy?

TD: So Osama, if I want to speak about him, he's the one who always lies to his father that he's praying, but he don't pray. He used to curse that religion because the religion is so heavy on his shoulders and because he's not a good religion boy everyone, from his cousin fight him. Even his other brothers they don't respect him because of this and his father used to beat him a lot. So it's a legacy of violence. He received a lot of violence in his childhood, a lot of unrespect from his society and the only way he found to protect himself to be strong and the only option is to follow the jihad, very early and to make his brother proud of him. So after the father lost his feet, so he's the one who should be in the front line instead of his father.

AMT: And you mentioned the dad. The dad at one point, he's trying to de-mine because he's looking for unexploded ordinance for the TNT and he goes off to the front line, he comes back without a fight. And it is Osama, the eldest, who goes in and just kind of stays with him.

TD: Yeah Anna Maria, this is the legacy of violence. This is how it's transferred from generation to generation. This film is a warning above the uprise of the extremist.

AMT: At one point you are sitting talking to Abu Osama and you don't see her, but there's a little girl off camera and he jokes that you know she's not wearing a hijab, it's his daughter and he says that he told his son well shoot her. She comes out with hijab, just shoot her. She's two.

TD: Two and a half.

AMT: Yeah.

TD: For them like even two and a half years, when she go outside she had to wear to cover her hair. This is the biggest catastrophe. This is the biggest nightmare.

AMT: He does have four daughters. He's got a wife. All we ever see are the six boys. Why were you not able to take, you weren't able to take any pictures of the women or the mom?

TD: Because this is the only red line I had doing the shooting. Since I'm sympathizer with their ideology. So I have to respect this that woman is a red line. It's not allowed for them in Sharia to speak to a stranger, like I'm a stranger for them. And the moment in the film, when he returned from the hospital, after he lose his feet, she was crying from the other room. And her voice was loud and he told her shut up, otherwise I will destroy the house above your head because he don't want us to hear her voice because this is not allowed. Can you imagine? Like you return to your home with your one feet and you're only focused about that nobody will hear the voice of your wife.

AMT: And it's interesting too because at one point he talks about, I mean you only, you very cleverly give us a sense of how he sees his wife with that very important thing that he yells at her. Another point he's musing that he really wants to have twins next year and he's got two wives and so he could have two sets of twins.

TD: I mean it's allowed for him to have a four.

AMT: And they discuss whether he can, somebody offers him more women.

TD: Yes they support it because they are brainwashed.

AMT: I want to ask you more about the kids. We talked about the eldest, Osama. There's also Ayman, named after Ayman al-Zawahiri. Ayman doesn't continue in jihadi school, why not?

TD: Yeah because what they noticed from his training in the last camp that he's very slow and he's always behind. He's the last one and he don't consider it good and that's what makes them say that he's still young to participate in fight. So mentally he's not ready. So Ayman, they decide that Ayman would be responsible for the family. He will go and do all job's need. He should study the basic stuff in the school, basic mathematics, reading, writing, all of this, some small stuff, so he accept that he would go to school and he shows he's the best student in his class. He loves the education, he loves the poetry, he loves mathematics. So this is the final destination or this is how it ends, like when the kids you see them hugging each other. Osama is going to the army of al-Nusra to stay there for a year and to do jihad stuff and to go to the front line and Ayman went to a normal school, which is like a few hundred metres away from his house.

AMT: We see him, Osama, get on the truck. Do you know what happened to him? Do you know if he's still alive?

TD: I don't know anything. Last communication with the father, it was in January 2017. Since that time, I don't know any information, but I believe that he's still alive. He had nothing happened to him yet. The father got killed in October 2018.

AMT: What happened to the father? How did he die?

TD: The father, I saw this in the social media. Some people published it and they told me this is your main character. So he moved from al-Nusra front to the other radical group, which has a direct connection with al-Qaeda.

AMT: Which one is that?

TD: It's called the Guardian of the Religion. They are also the rest of those people who run from ISIS and they came to the north , to the Idlib area and then they were like prepare a car bomb and he was fixing a car bomb, when his own group, like al-Nusra sent for them, an explosion car. He tried dismantling it because this is his profession.

AMT: So he was trying to dismantle a car bomb that had been placed by al-Nusra that he used to belong to against the Guardians of the Religion because they were also fighting each other.

TD: Yes for sure. Those jihadists, they fight eachother, always ISIS and al-Nusra in a fight, al-Qaeda and ISIS in a fight.

AMT: So people thought you were making a sympathetic film about a jihadist family. Have they seen, do you know if any of them have seen the final film?

TD: I think first they read some interviews about me, about who I and that's for them is enough to take an enemy act against the film. So I get threatened by the family, by the oldest brother for the main character of Osama. They're waiting for us. We going to meet you soon.

AMT: So how concerned are you for your safety and the safety of your own family?

TD: Some countries I should not go like Turkey, some Arab countries, which really don't have protections. Some Muslim countries in Asia, so I cannot travel everywhere.

AMT: And have you come away after this experience understanding the people who you were filming any better?

TD: I get a lot of understanding about jihad and jihad background and their motivation and the kids and how the brainwash happen. How they use the sacrifice, the tragedy of the other, how they can use it and also about the education, which is the main focus of the film. So we have to give more attention for the education part. We should get religion out from school. We should end really, jihad should be end from all the dictionaries of Islam. Also the United Nations should release a law, a very strong law against anyone who harm kids in schools or in house, even his parents. This is a red line, should not be accepted.

AMT: Talal, Syria is your home country, right?

TD: Yes.

AMT: I'm wondering what kind of a toll it takes on you when you go back and you film and you see the destruction and you see all the people pulling against each other. What is that like to see this happening to your own country?

TD: It's like a nightmare. This never end, legacy of hatred and violence and blood. This is the war, which is what means war. This is what should we care like I present the soul of this experience to the audience. So they should be worried that what's happened to Syria should not happen to any other country. We lost everything, history, places, people and we end up with radicalism. Even nationals presented by the government and even religions presented by the opposition and worse they are blood suckers and they want this war to be for very long. From the first sentence in my film, I said I'm going to capture the nightmare and I tried really to bring the nightmare with no violence, direct violence in front of the camera. The violence in the dialogue, in the conversation.

AMT: It's a very powerful film Talal. Thank you for the work you did.

TD: Thank you Anna. Thank you for this opportunity to speak from my heart.

AMT: Bye bye.

TD: Bye.

AMT: Talal Derki, Syrian-German documentary maker. His film, Of Fathers and Sons, is up for an Oscar this weekend for best documentary. He spoke to us from Culver City, California, near Los Angeles. Let us know what you think of what he had to say. Tweet us, we are @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook. Go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. And stay with us, in our next half hour, I'll be joined by one of the first women to hold real political power in this country, Monique Begin. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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Her first day in Parliament, security didn't believe Monique Bégin was really an MP

Guests: Monique Begin

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current. When Monique Begin first entered politics in the early 1970s, it was in some ways a very different world to the one we live in today. For one, women made up less than 2 per cent of MPs, 1.9 per cent was the exact number. Compared with today's 27 percent, that impressive change is thanks in part to the efforts of Monique Begin, as a minister and then Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau's cabinet and earlier as executive secretary of the Royal Commission on the Status of Women. Some things in Canadian life on the other hand, never seem to change, such as tussles between Ottawa and the provinces over healthcare and health care funding. And Monique Begin had a large hand in protecting the universal health care Canadians remain so proud of today with her Canada Health Act. Here is the CBC's Marguerite McDonald reporting on the issue from the early 1980s, when Monique Begin was the Federal Minister of Health and Welfare.

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VOICE 1: The prime minister didn't give me the job of killing Medicare. He told me to look after Medicare. I'm doing it.

VOICE 2: For the last year, Monique Begin has been taking her crusade to save Medicare across the country. Wherever she goes, she provokes provincial health ministers and outrages those doctors who don't want more state control over health care.

VOICE 3: Why in the name of sanity and reason do we have to hand it over totally to the state?

VOICE 2: For Begin, the two culprits are extra billing and user fees. For example, having a baby in Ontario can cost you $500. The reason is extra billing. Those extra charges some doctors make to patients over and above the fees paid by Medicare and hospitals are getting into the act too. In some provinces, they can charge patients directly. Those charges are called user fees.

VOICE 4: That's why Begin has come up with a Canada Health Act. Under the new act, she'll be able to hold back federal money from the provinces, unless they ban extra billing and user fees.

VOICE 2: A lot of her energy goes into her public fights with the provincial ministers, ministers like Alberta's Dave Russell.

VOICE 5: Canadians across the country are getting good healthcare and yet there's this continuing interference because we're not doing it her way, she's going to use blackmail and that's really what it amounts to.

AMT: Monique Begin was an MP from 1972 to 1984. It was that fight for the Canada Health Act that became the defining story of her time in Parliament. It's one of the many stories included in her new memoir entitled, Ladies Upstairs: My Life in Politics and After. Monique Begin joins us from Ottawa. Hello.

MONIQUE BEGIN: Good morning, it's a pleasure.

AMT: We heard there Alberta's Minister of Health Dave Russelll at the time, accusing you of blackmail. The discussion over the Canada Health Act got very heated, didn't it?

MB: It was awful. It went over five years. It was horrible and it ended in a conference of all the provincial ministers in Halifax subpoena me, if I may use the legal term, to explain. I think every journalist of Canada was at the door of the hotel waiting. It was so and I was absolutely alone. That was physical almost moment, but they treated me with vulgar words. I mean I had everything.

AMT: You say it was almost physical, the feeling?

MB: Yes the feeling because nobody touched me, but it was insults after insults. You know I mean I never forgot that one. Anyway, it's hard even to relive it. It was very painful. I try never to attack personally and I think I succeeded. They attacked personally. I mean they invented, somebody I recall on television even said that because I had known the war, I was very sensitive to people sick and stupidies that had no relationship to the dosier. But finally, I was known for a kind of political intuition and at the end, I recall, in around April 1984, going to Yvon Pinard who was in charge of the Liberal, the parliamentarian leader and I said Yvon, I bet, I can assure you they'll vote unanimously tomorrow. So he didn't say anything, but it didn't make any sense. But Brian Mulroney had just been elected and he knew exactly the people and I, of course my big supporters were the nurses, organized nursing and basically the general public. So they did vote unanimously. It's a unanimous vote.

AMT: You're making the point that Brian Mulroney understood regular people wanted it, even though the politicians.

MB: Yes and he understood the place of what we used to call Medicare in Canada for the public. Yes, he had that right. He was against universality and did away universality of family allowances and pensions, but Medicare for him was a cornerstone of our public social policies.

AMT: It's interesting, you say in the book that at one point, Dennis Timbrell, the Minister of Health in Ontario, gave you a T-shirt that said, Minister you will learn that in federal provincial conferences, Ontario decides and the others follow.

MB: Yes that was my very first federal provincial conference. It's an image. It tells a lot.

AMT: How do you feel now decades later about how secure Canadian health care is in terms of universality and accessibility?

MB: It's really entrenched in the minds of everybody, but I'm still watching, if IO may put it that way. We have to be very careful on major important and costly programs. Our Medicare is still too costly, it shouldn't be that costly, but you know. So it's very hard. We have to watch the winds and where it comes from and where it's going.

AMT: There is speculation that the Ontario government is looking at introducing elements of privatization. That's coming from the NDP opposition, that speculation the government insists it isn't, but it's back in the news in Ontario.

MB: Yes I've read that and I'm following it through the media.

AMT: The story of the Canada Health Act was often described as your biggest political fight or battle. How did you feel about that kind of language?

MB: First for me personally, that's a wrong assessment. I'm very proud of it, but for me personally, my number one victory or great, it was not even a grade battle, it was a military coupe that made me create very early in the portfolio of national health and welfare, what was called the child tax credit. My seven years in health and welfare I fought to keep the universality of social programs, family allowances and pensions in particular. That was defeated by Mulroney when he came in, but at least it gave people I hope who could see the way I was questioned all the time in the house, even by Liberal members that time against the universality, I hope they got prepared for the family budget. But my great pride is the child tax credit. In addition to the then regular universal family allowances. It was $200 a year for each child of mothers, usually often single mothers, women alone with kids. Well that $200 a year is now what's called the Canada Child Benefit and it's between $5000 and $6000 a year per kids, according to you know graduation from up to a certain yearly total income. I am so proud of it. It definitely dropped that, the poverty of children all over the country.

AMT: You know we talked just a minute ago about how you would face all these male ministers and how difficult that was. Talk to me a little bit more about politics and women. How welcoming was politics to women in 1972? You were one of five women elected, one of the first three ever from Quebec.

MB: Yes. Well it was certainly different. I was what we call in French, I mean a real innocent, who did not want to go into politics at all. And finally in need of a new challenge I guess, I accepted the invitation the second time I was asked to go to the prime minister's office. I'd never been there. I took my copy of the Royal Commission Report thinking they wanted to discuss its implementation and in front of me are ministers and the chief of staff of Pierre Trudeau at the time and other people I didn't know and I was asked again and that was a year later. The first time I burst laughing. It was by telephone from the prime minister's office and that was not for me. I never, I kept telling women you have to run for office, but that was not for me at all and I didn't trust politicians to tell the truth. Like many people still do and will always do.

AMT: And on your first day, as you went into the house as an MP, this is where you get the title of your book.

MB: Yes.

AMT: What happened?

MB: Well thanks for the good question. I love it. So we rush Parliament is opening, after the 30th of October 72 election and all the members and there were lots of new members in all parties, rushed what's called the west door, going up the stairs and right there is the House of Commons and we would be looking for seats and all of that. And I'm next, I don't know anybody, but we were really going up these stairs and is next to me. I had met her a few days before I suppose. And the commissioner shouts ladies upstairs, meaning in the galleries for the visitors. So we said, but sir, we're both elected. We're MPS. And he said oh no, there's no women MP and he made us stop on the stairs, wait and goes and checks. And I mean, so I thought it was the perfect title.

AMT: Wow. I think, I'm looking through the glass at one of my producers who just is really surprised to hear that. That was 1972?

MB: Yes.

AMT: Well I have another piece of tape that I want to play. This is from the CBC Archives. This is Florence Bird, chair of the Royal Commission on the status of women, speaking in 1968 in the middle of a cross-country consultation with women from all walks of life.

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VOICE: It was interesting because we had heard from all kinds of people. This is what was tremendous. We heard from poor people and poverty does very special things to women. We heard from Metis and Indian women who came to plead before us things that they thought should be done. To give their men and themselves and their families a better way of life. We heard from women who want to stay at home and look after their children, but couldn't do it because of poverty. We met women who are working because they had to because they were the heads of families because they had no man to protect them or help. We've had a number of young women come to us. And of course the thing, which is very helpful to us is that we have a very young staff of researchers. Our executive secretary and research director is 32.

AMT: Now just to point out, on her name plate at these consultations, Florence Bird was referred to as Mrs. John Bird. And the 32-year-old who she referred to in that clip was you.

MB: Yes, I know. One day I received a plaque that each commissioner will put in front of them, sitting during the public hearings and I go to her office, next to mine and I said Madame Bird, here we have your name plates. And when she saw Florence Bird, she got very angry and gave me hell and said I am Mrs. John Bird. I said Madame Bird, you can't do that. Times are changing. You'll receive tomatoes or something, you know at the public hearings in Toronto or something like that. She just forced me to have it reprinted Mrs. John Bird.

AMT: So interesting.

MB: I can't recall if she did receive something.

AMT: Well you were offered the job of being one of the commissioners, but you turned that down. Why?

MB: Well a few men with important roles did not whatever it was at the time. Their wives were with us when we founded the Federation of Quebec Women. So Claire would tell her husband about feminism and all of that. So one day Mark Lalon phoned me in the Fall 76, before the royal commission is established and he said would you like to be a commissioner? I said what's a As commissioner, sir? I knew absolutely nothing of all of that. So he explained. I said no I don't think so because it was part time, if I may put it that way. So I said how do you call the position of the person in charge of the daily functioning of the commission? He said an executive secretary and I said I may like that. I may be interested and that was it. I never heard anything until months after I was suddenly called to Ottawa.

AMT: Okay. So let me ask you, what was achieved in terms of women's rights in light of the commission?

MB: First of all very rapidly, Trudeau was by then Prime Minister, created the title of Minister of the Status of Women.Yet, there was no Liberal women therem so the minister of status of women to an existing male minister x y z. I meant, we thought that the department, the full department of male minister X would because they're stuck with this status of woman as a small ministry, if I may say, in addition to his regular ministry, would learn about women and inequality and all what had to be done. So just before I became a minister, two thirds of the recommendations of the report had been implemented, but all the radical changes have never been touched and were not touched.

AMT: Give me an example of the radical changes.

MB: We recommended daycare, a universal daycare for kids. For example because the mothers would benefit and could choose to go back to work or work at home. We respected that very much.

AMT: So universal daycare all those years ago was in the report?

MB: Yes. Well there's a disease in Canadian males against daycare. I've never understood why. There's one thing I'll never forgive, Justin Trudeau's predecessor Prime Minister.

AMT: Stephen Harper.

MB: Stephen Harper. As soon as he became prime minister the first than and he killed the universal day care agreements that Ken Dryden, federal minister had negotiated for Paul Martin with every one of the ten provinces and the budget of that was already approved in the house, but he used it for something else and he killed that.

AMT: I want to ask you about another program that you really wanted and that is a universal basic income.

MB: Yes, the guaranteed income, an annual income. That was my dream and I learned very rapidly that somehow I was out of touch.

AMT: And it's interesting. I know that there was some kind of an experiment at one point in Manitoba and of course we know now, the new U.S. Democratic Congress person, Alexandria Orcasio-Cortez s calling for this. There are some big players in Silicon Valley calling for this. There was a pilot program in Ontario that's been canceled by the Conservative government of Doug Ford. What do you see as its prospects now?

MB: I think that Minister Duclos, in Justin Trudeau's cabinet, is interested seriously, but I have no idea of what's feasible, but the income in Manitoba has received very favorable reviews. It does all sorts of good things first of all, but it costs a lot. Of course you get rid of all the bits and pieces of social programs in every province and federally and then you replace by a single program called guaranteed annual income or whatever synonym, but the cause of poverty, which could be right now, handicap, poverty, no job, unemployment, etc. but it could also be working poor, who are paid, who are in the labour market and receive salaries that make no sense at all to survive with a family. So it's a huge amount of money. It could be a very simple administration and there is no how do we call that, shame attached to receiving it. It works in other words.

AMT: You mentioned the current government of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, the Liberal Party and Mr. Trudeau and his government are embroiled in a controversy right now with an election coming up this year. What do you think of the state of the Liberal Party right now?

MB: That's a very tough questions for me to answer. Well I follow like anybody who reads the newspapers or watch the media what goes on and I can't comment. In trught, I cannot comment. It's hard to fully comprehend.

AMT: There's been discussion about what Jody Wilson-Raybould's resignation from cabinet means for women and Indigenous women and more widely Indigenous people. I'm just wondering what you've been thinking as a woman who has had to you know be in those very difficult cabinet meetings and has seen her own share of political controversy.

MB: You want me to speak about the former Minister of Justice and I won't comment. I don't know anything of what you just said.

AMT: OK. You won't comment at all on that?

MB: No, no.

AMT: Even the idea that some are looking at this and saying this is still an issue of a woman who has power in cabinet, who then has to step away?

MB: I just won't comment because I have nothing to contribute.

AMT: Okay fair enough. I wonder though, I want to ask you a little more because you were fighting for the universality of certain systems. You say in your book that you weren't looking necessarily for equality with men, you were looking to break the patriarchy. What does that mean?

MB: That's my own evolution through the decades.

AMT: Well let me ask, why isn't equality enough?

MB: Equality because I don't want to be like the men. I mean I don't envy anything that I want, which belongs or is part of being a man. I just want and the word equality means that you bring women up to men. That's of no interest for me. It's the roots of, I'm sorry that big word, but the root of patriarchy that should be explored and concurred if I may say, by women. It's not, for me equality is assimilation.We become assimilated to the men. I'm not interested in that at all.

AMT: And I want to ask you, after you left politics and you ended up in academia, you discovered more issues in terms of equal pay. What happened?

MB: I became the first woman Dean at the University of Ottawa with a tenure of seven years and every year the Globe & Mail had to publish at the end of March, the salary of anybody, not every civil servant, anybody who in the province was paid by government fund. And one day I look at that and I see that every dean, my colleague deans at the University of Ottawa are in the list of people making $100,000 and more. Every dean was there. I had such a shock and shortly after.

AMT: You weren't there, every dean but you?

MB: But me. And I told the story. So everybody was very shocked. I didn't get a penny additional in my salary, but Carolyn Andrew who had just been appointed dean got her salary raised to $100,000. These are the modern times.

AMT: I'm guessing there are a lot of young women early in their careers who might have thought that fight was already fought and what you're suggesting is that it just kept showing up.

MB: But you know that women, university professors, are paid today 30 per cent less than men. I mean it's incredible.

AMT: And if you look at politics, how satisfied are you with how much has changed for women in Canadian politics?

MB: Well of course there arthimatically speaking, more women elected. You gave the figure, I think it's 28 percent now. But the Scandinavians years ago, have studied in all of their parliaments over there, that things start changing when a critical mass of 33 percent of women exist in a given Parliament. I find that a very important discovery. We're not yet at 33 per cent after close to 50 years, we're not yet at that. And secondly, individually, all the women who are now in our parliament, may believe that they've made it. They're there, all these fights are old-fashioned stuff. If they have themselves personally not made for themselves an analysis of male power and patriarchy, they don't have it. They won't survive and they won't do what they would like to do.

AMT: All these years later.

MB: Yes.

AMT: That's a, so are you encouraging more women to get into politics?

MB: Of course, it should be like the Chinese say, half the sky, 50 per cent.

AMT: Monique Begin, we have to leave it there. Thank you for speaking with me today.

MB: Thank you very much, Anna Maria Tremonti.

AMT: Monique Begin was a Liberal MP from 1972 to 1984. She was Minister of National Revenue then Minister of Health and Welfare. She has published a memoir called, Ladies Upstairs: My Life in Politics and After and she joined us from Ottawa. That's our program for today. Stay with Radio One for Q. Director Michael Mann is on the program. Now we're going to leave you with one more word from Monique Begin. In November 2017, she was being honoured with a lifetime achievement award at the Maclean's Parliamentarian of the Year awards, when she surprised the audience with one word in particular. We'll leave you with a bit of that speech. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thanks for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: On a lighter note, I admit that my English vocabulary has been enriched these last months, starting with Trump's pussy grabbing. Not in my Robert & Collins Dictionary, which has lots of pussy this and pussy that, like pussyfooting, but not Trump's one.

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Feb. 19, 2019 episode transcript

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