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The Current Transcript for February 15, 2019

Host: Piya CHattopadhyay

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

I made it out, it's a lot, but I'm here. Can you help me get home?

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Home, she says, is Canada but for the past few years she was living in what was the Islamic State so called Caliphate. She is one of the many women fleeing the final stronghold of the militant group, and many of them are saying they want to come home to the western country they left. So what does all this mean for countries, including Canada, that discussion in a moment. After that we're heading north.

SOUNDCLIP

These races give you a possibility to come to a wild place, have an organized adventure, as safe as it can be in these circumstances.

PC: This is the final racers in this 2019 edition of the Yukon Arctic Ultra are expected to cross the finish line today. It is a race that is beyond any other ultra-marathon you may have heard of. Not just because of the difficult trek but also because of the unthinkably harsh and frigid conditions. How hard was it? You can judge yourself in half an hour. Plus:

SOUNDCLIP

Climate change and our environmental challenges are one of the biggest existential threats to our way of life.

PC: That is U.S. congresswoman Alexandrea Ocasio-Cortez touting her green new deal But does going green include going nuclear? Will hear the debate from within the environmental community. Hi I'm Piya Chattopadhyay and this is the Friday edition of The Current.

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Canadian women who went to join ISIS 'not willing to express regret': reporter

Guests: Rukmini Callimachi, Jessica Davis

SOUNDCLIP

JOURNALIST: What was that like? Was that an experiment that which fulfilled your aspirations?

SHAMIMA: It actually really did, it was like a normal life. The life that they saw on the propaganda videos, it's a normal life. Every now and there are bombs and stuff

INEWSSSSSS

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Well that is British journalist Anthony Lloyd of the Times of London speaking with Shamima Begum, one of the women of ISIS. Shamima Begum was only 15 when she set off for Syria and joined the militant group. She is now 19 years old and nine months pregnant. She says she led a normal life in the Caliphate unfazed by severed heads in garbage bins. But now she wants to go back to England and she's not the only one. As U.S. backed forces continue to hammer away at the final ISIS stronghold in Syria this week, women and children are fleeing. And many of those ISIS women from Western countries say they want to go home. New York Times foreign correspondent and host of the podcast 'Caliphate' Rukmini Callimachi has spoken with some of these women. Rukmini Challimachi has been covering this and al-Qaida in Iraq and Syria. We have reached her in Syria. So please keep in mind that the sound may be a bit choppy at times. Rukmini, hello.

RUKMINI CHALLIMACHI: Hi there.

PC: What do you think of the discovery of this British teenager in a Syrian camp?

RUKMINI CHALLIMACHI: It suggests that many of these foreign fighters that have become well known in the past for the [unintelligible] might still be at large.

PC: She is not regretful. What do you make of that?

RUKMINI CHALLIMACHI: It appears to be typical of the [unintelligible] that I've been interviewing this week who are arriving by the dozens and the hundreds in the desert in Syria, not far from the last village under ISIS control. I've spoken to two Canadians in recent days and similarly they describe life under the Islamic State as being quote "normal". They seem to be intent on justifying some of the horrible practices that we know of that the group carried out. And they were not willing to express regret for having traveled to the Caliphate.

PC: As you mentioned two Canadians that you have spoken to. I have a couple of clips here I want to play for you. First is a 28 year old from Toronto, currently being held in Syria along with other ISIS women?

SOUNDCLIP

When you come to Raqqa and you're eating Pringles and twix and your'e just saying-- You know you-- you don't feel like you're in a war. I believe it's shitty, however shitty it is. Do I regret it? No I don't, in the sense, I had my kids here.

PC: Well as you heard she does not regret going to Syria and joining ISIS, either. There are however other women say they have had no choice but to go.

SOUNDCLIP

He's like you have to come here. He's like it's obligatory for you to come here. You have no choice. He's like, as your husband, I am telling you to come here, and as a Muslim wife, you have to obey.

PC: That's a 34 year old former graphic designer from Alberta who picked up and went to Syria with her two young boys four years ago. Rukmini Callimachi you have spoken to both these Canadians. What do we know- what do you know about these women?

RUKMINI CHALLIMACHI: The second one that you heard in the second clip, the woman from Alberta, [unintelligible] about her is she left to join the Islamic State when she was 30 years old. She was not a minor. She's not even a young woman. She was a grown woman in her 30. She had a 9-5 job in Alberta and she had two small children in Canada. Yet, she made this radical decision. She portrayed yourself having had no choice but [unintelligible] find it sexist to actually think that a woman that grew up in the West has so little agency that she is not able to make up her own mind in this regard.

PC: You have spoken to many women who are with ISIS. How familiar is that kind of story?

RUKMINI CHALLIMACHI: Among the [unintelligible] that is a more common truth. There is something to be said for the Syrian and Iraqi women, or even the women from the [unintelligible] from Asia who are in cultures that are more male dominated and they have less choice. It's possible there to imagine a situation where they really felt compelled to come. But for the westerners, I think that there was agency. They made a decision. But really what most of us, really what many people think of them is as victims because they were women and were combatant and the thing that we are [unintelligible] in that argument is in the end, the women and the children who came here gave this group enormous legitimacy. It became a state rather than just a terrorist organization that just [unintelligible].

PC: These women and their children are being called non-combatant migrants. Is that an accurate portrayal?

RUKMINI CHALLIMACHI: For most of the children I think that is accurate. For the women, it is true that they were in large part not involved in the [unintelligible] of the Islamic State, the beheadings, the assassinations, the crucifixion, etc. But the women were involved in [unintelligible] recruitment. They were the ones who were making connections with other women in the West and helping them in. One of the most disturbing aspects of what women did, ISIS wise, is they were involved in the Yazidi sex trafficking. These are the woman from the Yazidi minority in Northern Iraq, who were abducted by the Islamic State and who were forced into a system of sexual slavery.

PC: Rukmini, you know that many Western countries, including our own, Canada, are struggling to know what to do with these women. So what are they facing in this sort of uncertain period, these women?

RUKMINI CHALLIMACHI: They are clearly in legal limbo. We are hearing from Canadians who have been [unintelligible] for months is that they have had interaction with Canadian officials, no consular services. And these are detainees who have been in some instances interviewed by other intelligence agencies including the FBI, the CIA and European intelligence agencies. So that suggests to me that Canada is really holding these people at arms length and has not decided to engage with them.

PC: So what might happen if Canada or other Western countries don't take their own citizens, the women who are fighting with ISIS back? What happens to them and in many cases they have children as well?

RUKMINI CHALLIMACHI: For the time being I think they're going to be living pretty much all lives in these camps. And [unintelligible] now there have been so many new arrivals that there are not enough tents. And right now in Syria, it's incredibly cold. It's windy. It's very. It's muddy. It's really a neglible place to be if you don't have a shelter. [Unintelligible] from The Telegraph recently did a piece talking about the number of children that are dying in these camps form lack of medical care, from malnutrition and from some other ills.

PC: Rukmini Callimachi thank you.

RUKMINI CHALLIMACHI: Thank you so much for having me.

PC: Rukmini Callimachi is a New York Times foreign correspondent and we reached her in Syria. Well Shamima Begum may have made headlines in the U.K. this week with her plea to return home, but there are women fleeing the so-called Islamic State from all over the world, including this woman from Canada.

SOUNDCLIP

I came as a humanitarian. I came wanting to help, to offer the skills that I had to help mainly women and children here. I would say that for the women that are still there and for the children, si that if you want to leave, come. You'll be okay. I will say for the families back home, don't judge too harsh. These people have been through an awful lot. And they actually need your support and they need her help and they need their countries to back them up, or you run the risk of them - some of them - becoming the very problem by pushing them away, because if you push them away where are they going to go? I made it out, and it took a lot, but I'm here. And can you help me get home.

PC: That was a Canadian woman talking to ITV from a Kurdish controlled camp in Syria. And as you heard she says she traveled to the region for humanitarian work, but it will be difficult to figure out the original motives of the many women who joined the so called Caliphate. Jessica Davis is a former senior intelligence analyst at CSIS now a national security consultant and the author of Women in Modern Terrorism, from Liberation Wars to Global Jihad and the Islamic State. Jessica Davis is in our Ottawa studio. Hello to you.

JESSICA DAVIS: Good morning, Piya.

PC: What do you think when you hear what that Canadian woman has to say there?

JESSICA DAVIS: The argument that individuals traveled to join the Islamic State for humanitarian reasons is a very common - I would say - cover story for what they were planning on doing. For the vast majority of these individuals, they didn't have any skills that they could bring to bear in a humanitarian context. So were not talking about doctors and nurses or people who could really contribute in a humanitarian way. So what this woman saying, when I hear that I hear she wanted to join the Islamic State but she wanted to give her travel a veneer of legitimacy.

PC: So in other words you're not buying it.

JESSICA DAVIS: I'm not buying it at all.

PC: Okay. What role did women play in ISIS once they were there, whether they went - some of them say by choice, some of them say I was forced there - despite that debate what role did they play?

JESSICA DAVIS: The women of the Islamic State had been portrayed mainly as being the wives and mothers for the Islamic State. But this is not remotely the whole story. So women have been involved in things like intelligence collection, reconnaissance, recruitment and other individuals including women and children from Western countries. They've also been employed as enforcers of morality laws within the Islamic State, which in and of itself involves a level of coercion and potentially violence. And they've also been employed as suicide bombers conducting violence on behalf of the Islamic State as well.

PC: They were suicide bombers some of them, were others allowed to go fight like be combatants?

JESSICA DAVIS: From what I've seen there haven't been many reports of women actually undertaking combat but there are reports of women undertaking combat training. So we've seen reports of women engaging in weapons training but I'm not sure that- I don't think that we've seen them actually engaging on the front lines. The frontline work has been primarily done by men and then for women as suicide bombers which is actually very consistent with a lot of other terrorist organizations.

PC: To what extent do you think that some people misunderstand the role of women in ISIS? In other words there is an argument that women are thought to be as pawns or victims of forced - as you heard that one woman say - by her husband to pick up and go over and be with ISIS. How well understood is the role of women in ISIS?

JESSICA DAVIS: The best example that I can use to highlight how misunderstood women are in ISIS< is the common term women and children of the Islamic State. So in media, in news reports and all kinds of things we talk about the women and children. We conflate them as one. And this is really important we need to desegregate these two things because they're very different. So the children of the Islamic State either brought over to join the terrorist organization by their parents and had no agency in that or were born there and so we really need to consider them separately. The women on the other hand, the vast majority of them I would say, traveled of their own will with agency to join a terrorist organization. Now there are levels of nuance to that that I think is important to bring to that argument, and the [unintelligible] schoolgirls are really excellent example of this. I often talk about these two separate categories but in some instances some of the women were young women who traveled to join the Islamic State and were children. And so their level of agency versus whether or not they were recruited, radicalized or groomed into the terrorist organization is not a simple categorization that we can make.

PC: Okay so one example of that is the case of Shamima Begum. She said she did not regret going to Syria. She said she was not fazed by the violence she witnessed. So if she is to return to the UK - you know at the time she was 15 when she went there. She's now 19. She says two of her children died. She now wants to go back to the UK. How should her re-entry be handled or others who were children when they went, now are women and have children of their own?

JESSICA DAVIS: Yes. This is a deeply complex issue. So when she traveled to the Islamic State she was by and large a child. I would still argue that she had a certain amount of agency in that decision, and I think that if she was to go back to the UK they would need to look at all of the circumstances surrounding her departure to determine what level of understanding she really had but what she was doing. In her case it does seem to be a bit higher. But there are cases of women, young women, girls who are 15 who were forced to go over to the Islamic State by their parents so the age isn't the only determining factor in understanding what level of responsibility for their actions. But then for the U.K., if she were to go back, they're now faced with a compounding problem. So she traveled to join the Islamic State as a child, as a young woman. But she is still very much radicalized. And so she could very much pose a threat to the security of the United Kingdom and they would need to assess that separately from any potential crimes that she committed as a 15 year old and this becomes a very complex process.

PC: Here's another complicating factor. As more women start to emerge saying they'd like to return to Canada or other Western countries from where they came, we have to pass the lines right. How much can we actually know about what they did or did not do while they were living in ISIS controlled territory versus what they say they did or did not do?

JESSICA DAVIS: Yes that is that is another very difficult question. So in Canada I would say that this is an even more challenging problem. So while it's possible that CSIS, our Security Intelligence Service, has some information about what these women did oversees - and I'm not saying they do. I don't know if they have - whether or not that information ever sees the light of day and we'll never really know what they did if that's where the information is held, and it certainly can't enter into a law enforcement process. So unless the RCMP is able to collect that information, Canadian citizens will never really know what roles these women had in the Islamic State which again makes it very difficult to understand the nature of the threat and the policy arguments and recommendations that need to flow from that.

JESSICA DAVIS: Okay. I want to play you a clip. This is voiced by one of our producers. But it's of a Canadian mother whose daughter left Montreal for Syria and this is from the CBC documentary. It's called The Way Out.

SOUNDCLIP

When I answer the phone the way she said 'Mama' she sounded like someone who was in trouble. I could hear little children crying in the background. They had put her in a home for women, for war widows who have children and so on. I asked where are you. She said sit down please Mama. And then I said I want to come to you. Tell me where you are. She said everything has been under surveillance since I got here. We're being watched. It's dangerous. You can't imagine what it's like. And then she said to. I am so sorry ma'am. I'm so sorry. It's been a nightmare. And now she wants help to get out. I would risk my life to save her.

PC: Jessica Davis clearly there are families here who long for the safe return of their loved ones. If we don't know everything and we can't take them at their word and it's going to be really hard to figure all this out, can they be prosecuted in Canadian courts, should they be allowed to return?

JESSICA DAVIS: Whether or not they can be prosecuted in Canadian courts depends very much on the evidence that has been collected against them. And as we've seen with some cases we saw in the New York Times this summer the Abu Huzeifa case of an individual who admitted to having joined the Islamic State and still has not faced any sort of criminal charges. So I don't think that a lot of these women would face charges in Canada but that doesn't mean that they would be free to go about doing their lives. There may be some other measures that could be applied like peace bonds. And I think that our law enforcement and security services would certainly be conducting an assessment about the threat that many of these women could pose to security of Canada. In a lot of these cases - and particularly in the clip that you played - there are people who realize that they made a mistake and upon returning to Canada would likely not pose a threat, would move on with their lives, would abandon the ideology but that’s not a sure thing with all of them.

PC: So where is the balance to be struck between bringing these people home and getting justice for the possible atrocities they participated in while they were gone?

JESSICA DAVIS: That is an ongoing question and from my perspective I think that Canada has a responsibility to bring them back to Canada. Well the government allowed these individuals to travel overseas to join a terrorist organization, and I say it allowed you know a lot of them did have to sneak out of the country, but there wasn't enough done to stop them. We bear responsibility for the things that they have done and may do overseas in the sense that we need to bring them back to make sure that they don’t go on to commit other terrorist acts in other countries, killing other people. Unfortunately that means that Canadians need to take on a certain level of risk, and there may not be justice at the end of the day in terms of prosecutions for whatever acts were overseas. And it’s not an easy solution but it is Canada’s responsibility.

PC: It's interesting that you say that because Canadian Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale has said his priority is the safety of Canadians at home, and is in no rush to put Canadian officials in danger abroad and attempting to bring those fighters and supporters back to our country. So in other words he's saying we are going to do much at this point. So what do you make of Canada's action or lack thereof to bring suspected ISIS members back to face possible prosecution?

JESSICA DAVIS: I think that the public safety minister's use of the safety of the consular staff at a bit of a convenient out for him. All of the reporters that are in Syria right now are demonstrating that it is possible to operate there and theoretically we could provide consular services. I understand that Canadians don't want these people back in the country. But I think that the alternative then being summarily executed in Syria or Iraq, being released, being allowed to continue with any sort of terrorist activity that is actually worse. I would much rather have Canadian law enforcement security services looking after these people even though that is a a strain on Canadian resources than allowing them to be free anywhere else in the world.

PC: Jessica Davis we will have to leave it there. Thank you for your perspective.

JESSICA DAVIS: Thank you.

PC: Jessica Davis is a former senior intelligence analyst at CSIS now national security consultant and author of Women in Modern Terrorism from Liberation Wars to Global Jihad and the Islamic State. We reached her in our Ottawa studio. All right the CBC News is next. And then a truly amazing race. We'll hear from two competitors who took part in this year's Yukon Arctic Ultramarathon. You're not going to want to miss what they have to say. I'm Piya Chattopadhyaya. You're listening to the Friday edition of The Current. We're back in just a bit.

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This man ran 138 km across the frozen Yukon landscape. He's disappointed he didn't do more

Guests: Pat Cook-Rogers, Russell Reinbolt

PC: Hi I'm Piya Chattopadhyay. And you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

PC: Still to come, the bold new U.S. congresswoman from New York, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez made headlines last week with her bold new environmental proposal a Green New Deal. It calls for a radical overhaul. But how to power the new Green World and what place is there for nuclear power in a green context. We'll hear arguments for and against. That's in half an hour. But first a race whose runners had the energy to power a small city or two.

[Music: Theme]

PC: So back in 2003 da German outdoorsman by the name of Robert Pollhammer founded start to be the world's most grueling ultramarathon. Every February competitors head north out of Whitehorse in the direction of Dawson City for distances of one 100, 300 or 430 miles - which by the way is nearly 700 kilometres. They can run, walk, ski or bike but whatever mode, whatever distance they choose is one thing they all face that is the cold. Temperatures as low as minus 50 degrees Celsius - that is before wind chill. It's known as a Yukon Arctic Ultra. And we asked Robert Pollhammer why he would do something so cruel.

SOUNDCLIP

I think it's the satisfaction of seeing people trying to do something extraordinary, even if they fail, it doesn't matter. Anybody who's got the guts to come to our race to the start line, no matter what distance, that's very special. And of course it's even greater if I then see them finish. And it gives people a lot for their everyday life, maybe private life, maybe a professional career. I've seen people finish the race and then completely make a change in their career. Maybe they quit their job and started their own company because they got a lot of self-confidence from it and that's very nice.

PC: 82 people signed up to take on the Yukon Arctic Ultra this year. They came from all over the world. The oldest is 76 years old today. Robert Pollhammer is waiting for the last one of his racers to cross the finish line. As are my two guests both of whom were bested by the cold this year. Pat Cook-Rogers is a veteran of the Ultra. This was her sixth time this year. She was in the 430 mile division and she was on a bicycle and Russell was running the 300 mile race. This was his first attempt. Neither finished. Pat called it at 300 miles - by the way that is about 400 kilometres - and Russell gave it 86 miles which means he completed 130 kilometres of running. Pat Cook-Rogers in Dawson City and Russell Reinbolt is in San Diego. Hello to you both.

RUSSEL REINBOLT: Good morning.

PAT COOK-ROGERS: Good morning.

PC: First of all congratulations. This is no regular race, these are for ultra-athletes like yourself. So good job on just taking this all on. Pat Cook-Rogers how are you feeling now physically?

PAT COOK-ROGERS: Probably better than I deserve to. But not too bad. I've had a lot of walking rather than biking which is not on the plan, but not too bad.

PC: When you say not too bad what does that mean?

PAT COOK-ROGERS: I am still very tired and sleeping quite a lot. I've hurt one ankle but I normally do that.

PC: And how are you feeling emotionally, mentally?

PAT COOK-ROGERS: Mentally I'm okay. I was disappointed not to finish but actually not upset and I had quite a good time. Hard time but good time, until I got to that point.

PC: So Russ you pulled out just over a week ago. How are you doing reflecting back on it now?

RUSSEL REINBOLT: Well actually my situation is the opposite. I feel perfectly fine physically but emotionally I am beat up. I am all battered and bruised and you know my ego took a hit. My pride took a hit but primarily it's the sense of self disappointment. I feel like I gave up because of the adversity of the event. I was in new uncharted territory for me. It was the coldest race. It was the longest race that I would have done. I was certainly out of my element and I was not adequately prepared for all the mental and emotional demands of the race.

PC: Okay but you ran 86 miles in what temperature?

RUSSEL REINBOLT: Well I think it was 28 below Fahrenheit at the start, of course it got warmer as time went on but still it was very very cold. And I think it was around 14 below Fahrenheit in my worst moments which is pretty darn chilly.

PC: Heading into it what were your expectations - not just for your own performance which I imagine one of the expectations was finished with the entire race - but what were your expectations for the entire experience? What were you trying to get out of this race?

RUSSEL REINBOLT: Well my ultimate goal was to finish but then my next goal was to reach my what I thought was my maximum potential. Am I trying to maximize my potential both mentally and physically. And also I wanted to take the opportunity to just be grateful as possible for all the blessings in my life. I know that sounds kind of kumbaya kind of happy and all, but I really did want to be able to express my gratitude to myself and to nature and to the course volunteers and the race organisers, for just being in a position to do such a wonderful event and to be out in nature and enjoy how beautiful it is and all the blessings that I have in my life. I certainly was able to accomplish that goal, there is no question.

PC: Pat, what about you? Why this race? You're not a lifelong runner like Russ is. What was your intention heading into this?

PAT COOK-ROGERS: I think for me it was really about the journey. I knew it would finish when it finished. I would like it to be at the end but that didn't happen. But Russell's absolutely right it is so beautiful out there. And for me also it's a very spiritual experience out there and I find out there I meet God and I walk or ride with God and I have good times and I have bad times. And all of that happened during the race. Maybe there are a few more bad parts than I wouldn't have liked but there's so much learning in there as well. So maybe that's why I don't feel it's quite so much of a disappointment. In a way Russell is an athlete. I'm kind of not. I am a man who got called into this somehow. So I find it hard to define myself as an athlete.

PC: Really?

PAT COOK-ROGERS: I just kind of keep going. Yes really.

PC: Why?

PAT COOK-ROGERS: I look at the other athletes. I looked at one of the ladies who finished last night. It's so nice to be there in Dawson for her, but [unintelligible] to me a kind of proper athlete. I'm a slightly overweight mother of four who - yes I do train but I can't put myself in the same league as the others.

PC: You know I'm looking at three people who are listening to our interview right now and you should see their faces right now. They're like, 'what does she mean she's not an athlete?' Well help me out here, Pat, what is your training regime?

PAT COOK-ROGERS: Probably not enough. Well it's not enough. I probably ride for ride the bike for maybe somewhere between, at peak, somewhere between six and 10 hours a week. And I do some strength training and I do some walking as well.

PC: Okay I'm going to tell you need to own the word athlete. It's the label for you. Right, Russ? I'm right, right?

RUSSEL REINBOLT: I definitely would characterize her as an elite athlete, but I think I think she's probably an athlete mental athlete more than she is a physical athlete. You know and people have a major athlete in their head they think of you know some hard core body builder or you know Navy seal type guy who's all rah rah, but I think she's probably- I had spent about an hour or two with Pat and I definitely get the impression that she is mentally as strong as anybody on the planet. I really do.

PC: Pat.

PAT COOK-ROGERS: I can't comment on that. I'll keep smiling.

PC: Okay. Let's leave that there. I want to get back to some of the physical conditions that you were both racing in. So Russ you're in San Diego right now. You have done marathons in extraordinarily high temperatures. You've done Death Valley California. So how does that compare to running in the extreme cold? I think at some points in this race it was near minus 40 degrees Celsius.

RUSSEL REINBOLT: Yes. Correct. In hot weather the, when you get fatigued and you start overheating and things break down when you stop, things get better. You cool down. You get into a safer place. Whereas in the cold weather races when you are in extremes and when you're at the edge, when you really get into trouble, when you stop things get worse. You get colder. You immediately have to try to warm up to get out of danger. And that requires greater physical and mental effort. So without question to me the cold weather issues are more demanding than the hot weather races.

PC: And for you specifically, Russ, because you are a doctor so you know medically, or I guess physiologically, what is happening to your body as you're going through that race better than - I would imagine - most other competitors. So is that always kind of in your mind. Like 'I know what's happening to my body right now. I know if I get to call them I need to heat up, what's that going to take'. Are those things go into your head as you're running?

RUSSEL REINBOLT: They are, yes, definitely. There's no question. And I’m very cautious. You know there were extreme athletes but were still extremely cautious. What we do is not really dangerous, we're not jumping out of airplanes. You know if parachutes, to me that's dangerous. What we do is extreme and there is a definite difference between being an extreme athlete versus doing something that's dangerous. So yes those things - from a physiological standpoint I'm definitely aware of what's going on out there.

PC: And so are you getting scared when you know your body is - I think the word you used - is breaking down?

RUSSEL REINBOLT: Yes. Well what scares me is when there is a change in cognition when I start being foggy, when I start losing my insight and my ability to make good rational decisions that's when I get really concerned. And that's what happened to me out in the race. I started to get foggy. I had not slept enough. I wasn't eating enough. I wasn't drinking enough and I was getting a call and I was going to some tingling in my fingers. Those were all warning signs that danger was on the horizon and that's when I almost panicked. In an emotional - in a bad emotional state - I hit my hot button on my GPS tracker and ended my race very very prematurely, but probably appropriately.

PC: Safely.

RUSSEL REINBOLT: Yes.

PC: And Pat. What is the experience of running in the cold. I know you live in northern climes in the UK but this ultranorthern climes and very very cold.

PAT COOK-ROGERS: This is so very very different. I have not done anything like Russ has done, but I have race [unintelligible] world championship in Kona in Hawaii twice. And to me that was much harder at plus 40 degrees than racing in the cold. But again, that could be my UK background. You do have to manage yourself and be totally aware of yourself. You've got to run a body management program all the time you're out there in the cold. Are my fingers cold? How am I thinking? Am I tired? Am I hungry? What's going on? You have to be aware of what's happening. As Russ have said, you have to be one step ahead of what's happening and anticipate what might happen if you proceed down this route that you're on currently. And like Russ I am very cautious. I've got four children that I have every intention of going back home to. You can't go at a race like this hard and fast without thinking. It is too dangerous.

PC: One of the calculations each one of you have to make on a daily basis is when do I stop for the day. And so I want to talk a bit more about the night. Russ, how do you decide when enough is enough for the day. It's time to back in fir day. I'll get back up tomorrow and get back on my feet and start running, but now it's time for a rest.

RUSSEL REINBOLT: Well when I started to become foggy that when I knew I had to throttle back. I was really charging hard to get to the second to the third checkpoint where I was planning on sleeping. I probably was just too aggressive. I was just pushing too hard, physically, and that got me into trouble. So I should have slept at the mile 59 checkpoints. It's called Dog Grave Lake but I didn't, I was feeling perfect at that point and I felt I could make the next 35 miles to the next checkpoint. It was a big mistake. Looking back I definitely made a mistake and I should have slept earlier.

PC: When did you know it was over?

RUSSEL REINBOLT: Yes. I was crushed when I got a runner came by and I asked him how much farther to the next checkpoint. And I thought I was only about a mile and a half away from the checkpoint, and he said it was 7.7 miles. And that just crushed me because doing the math I knew that that would take me approximately four more hours. So I just didn't have the will to carry on four more hours in that emotional state. I just basically hate to use the term wimped out, but I don't know how else to put it. I really wimped out and I just made an emotional decision and said scre it, I'm done.

PC: Pat, what about for you? When did you know it was game over for you? You saw the end of your race coming as well. So take me out to the trail, when did you know?

PAT COOK-ROGERS: I had been struggling with two things really. Firstly although the first couple of sections of the trail were really good for a bike, because they were a packed trail and I could ride a lot, after that, after the hundred mile point, the trail was really very very poor for a bike. So I ended up pushing a lot. So given that background the other problem I was facing is that I was struggling to keep my left foot warm. And that was strange and I tried all kinds of things and the only thing actually that would keep the foot warm was walking. So I was doing an awful lot of walking. I also had two flat tires, at separate points in the race.

PC: It's hard to ride a bike when you got two flat tires.

PAT COOK-ROGERS: A lot more pushing. It's much harder work you know pushing a bike with a flat tire through the snow. But I left Peli farm, which I think is about the 270 mile mark in quite reasonable shape. But I couldn't keep that foot warm. I went through the rest of the day. I think I left early afternoon and through the night. And I couldn't get my foot warm except by walking and you cannot keep on walking. So I walked through the night and it's quite desperate in a way when you know you can't stop. So if I stopped even to get a drink from a thermos flask I could feel the heat draining out of the foot. And then in the next day I did the last major climb before [unintelligible], and that was fine because that was walking and pushing. But every time I stopped it got worse again. I tried my last option in terms of socks with fresh clean sick socks and actually poo bag I put on my feet to try and keep the damp out. And I was using hot shots and I carried on and it just didn't. And it was then obvious if I carried on I was going to get frostbite in that foot. The guy who would have to come out rescue me would have to come further into a more remote area and I was just going to make things worse for everyone if I carried on. So at that point I decided that that was the end for me, that was the end of the race for me.

PC: And for you, what was the mental moment for you? Because you seem to describe this more as like, it was a physical thing. 'My foot was so cold that I knew I had to stop'. It was more of a practical decision if I can put it that way than maybe head games sort of decision. Is that how you see it?

PAT COOK-ROGERS: Yes yes it was really. It was actually entirely obvious. Now when I look back on it now, it was the obvious thing to do. I had no alternative really. A couple of the [unintelligible] a couple of skidoo drivers came out to me. And in a funny way it was almost a bit like at the vets when you've got an animal that's really ill and you know it's got to be put down. And so just the vet but the vet actually can't tell you. It's almost a bit like that. They knew my race was in end. I knew and kind of nobody wanted to say it but they were brilliant. They made a fire and then I had the most fantastic ski doo ride backing to Peli farm.

PC: Pat, what do you want to see to Russ? Because Russell is struggling a little bit. He feels like a wimp. He says I gave up, maybe has more regrets than you do. You want to commiserate with him or what would you want to say to him?

RUSSEL REINBOLT: I would like to say to you that it takes the strong and the brave to make the decision he made. I have a great deal of respect for him. I guess I'd like to give him a big hug right now. I know I can't do that from over here but I think he made the only decision he could make. I respect the way he knew what was going on in his head, his body, in his mind. He called it at the right time. He got it right. He's got to come back next time. Do it again.

RUSSEL REINBOLT: So Pat's words carry a lot of weight. I really am very grateful for her kind words and her support and I wish I could reissue the phone to give her a hug as well. And I want to congratulate her on her amazing race.

PC: I know this is like recent past. Maybe you're already thinking towards next year or the year after. Do you attempt this again? I mean for you, Pat, this is your sixth time out. So do you do a seventh?

PAT COOK-ROGERS: I would love to. For me it depends whether A: I got a called and B: My husband lets me. Yes I'd love to come back in two years’ time and give it another go.

PC: And Russ.

RUSSEL REINBOLT: You know I knew that you were going to ask me this, Piya. I was hoping that you didn't because I know my wife will be listening. My wife is going to be saying 'hell no'. I want to go out tomorrow, Piya, to be honest, to start over and attack this race again. So if somebody put a gun to my head and said you can do this race next year I would have to say yes. I want to be back for starting my next year. I had this tremendous sense of unfinished business. So, yes, I want to do it next year. Yes

PC: Sorry, wife.

RUSSEL REINBOLT: I'm going to have to pay her off to Hawaii or something like that.

PC: I’m like being ‘agist’ and I hope you don't mind me revealing your ages but it is important in this sense. Pat, I think are 60.

PAT COOK-ROGERS: 62.

PC: So Pat, you're 62 and Russ, you're 53?

RUSSEL REINBOLT: Correct.

PC: Okay. So you both have some experience not just in racing but in life and some wisdom. I am wondering as fascinated as I and I think our listeners are about hearing about your experience during these races. What sort of your take away from doing these things that we can all apply to our lives?

RUSSEL REINBOLT: One of my silly saying is "it is mental. It's always mental" quote unquote. Because so much in life comes down to one's head. You know like I said earlier you can be the strongest person physically but if you don't have the mental drive to push yourself you're not going to get anywhere. The value of mental toughness is much greater than the value of physical toughness. A perfect example of that is Pat. You know she doesn't describe herself as a traditional athlete but I still think she's tough as nails, mentally. And that's what allowed her to drive and drive and drive and get so far into the race. Whereas me, I consider myself extremely strong physically and very I was very well prepared physically, but mentally I was not. I'd like to think I was but I wasn't. Look at the result. Look what happened. I only made it 86 miles.

PAT COOK-ROGERS: No only.

PC: No only.

RUSSEL REINBOLT: Well thank you. But it's mental. It's always mental, baby. That what I say.

PC: Pat, what do you want to take away from hearing about your experience?

PAT COOK-ROGERS: I think I would say what God said to me when I was out there on the race, and he said you only have to be yourself. You don't have to worry about what anybody else thinks, what anybody else wants of you. You only have to be yourself.

PC: Thank you both. I think you're both amazing for even attempting this and I appreciate so much sharing your experiences both practically, physically and mentally with us and our listeners. Thank you very much. Take care.

PAT COOK-ROGERS: Thank you.

RUSSEL REINBOLT: Thank you very much.

PC: Thank about Pat Cook-Rogers and Russell Reinbolt competitors in this year's Yukon Arctic Ultra. We reach Pat in Dawson city and Russ in San Diego. So when Russ made the call to drop out after 138 kilometres of running Mark Kelly was with the team that helped to bring him in. Mark is the race's official photographer but he's also a former trauma therapist and a wilderness guide. So he's an invaluable part of the Ultra's team. And he says the hardest part of the job is watching people make that decision to push the button for help, that signaled the end of their race. He remembers meeting up with Russ after he pushed that button.

SOUNDCLIP

This is where my mental health stuff sometimes comes in. He was really beating himself up because he's a very serious athlete and he had Apollo for some very good medical reasons. He's just living with himself. He was living with his body. That was really hard to watch. He had me misty, a little bit teary. That's hard. You know I want to say one thing about him. I really appreciate what a position he was in. He was being hard on himself. But just spoke to his level of tenacity and resolve. As an athlete, you're racing against your brain. You're racing against yourself. It's the only race out there.

PC: But it is not all heartbreak of course. Here's Mark again on watching the final triumphant moment of another competitor's race.

SOUNDCLIP

Watching Lara come up she's a tiny - if she's 90 pounds I'd be surprised. Her polo weighs more than her and it was pulling her back the embankment as she's trying to get to the finish line. And she's on her hands and knees crawling up over the edge of the river bank to get to the road to get to the finish. And We're all cheering her on because we can't help her you know, and she's going to do it. And she did it. So it was totally triumphant. It was amazing. I got a picture of her advice on her Facebook page. Just head lamp staring at us right between two trail markers which the edge of the river bank and she's sort of [unintelligible]. There is a way to did deep that I didn't know existed. I thnik it is just made of a different sweat and leather.

PC: That's Mark Kelly photographer with The Yukon Arctic Ultra. To see some of those pictures you can go to our Web site cbc.ca/thecurrent. All right. Coming up, does going green include going nuclear? We hear both sides of that debate in just a bit. I'm Piya Chattopadhyay. You're listening to this Friday edition of The Current.

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Why one advocate says nuclear energy needs to be part of the plan to solve climate change

Guests: Josh Freed, Shawn-Patrick Stensil

PC: I'm Piya Chattopadhyay and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current. For more than a week now thousands of Haitians have taken to the streets of Port au Prince in calling for the resignation of that country's president. At least seven people have been killed. Protests are expected to continue today. Present Jovenel Moise finally addressed the country yesterday but he refused to quit saying he quote "will not leave the country in the hands of armed gangs and drug traffickers". Global Affairs Canada has advised against all travel to the country except for that that is essential. Any embassy is temporarily closed but many Canadians who were already in Haiti have been left stranded. Two of them are Heather Dow and Cathy Davies a nurse and doctor from Woodstock New Brunswick who spoke on the CBC radio program Shift - New Brunswick. They've managed to stay safe in the midst of the unrest.

SOUNDCLIP

[Shouting]

REPORTER 1: Anger is rising on the streets of Port au Prince. Protesters say the government is corrupt. They accused President Jovenel Moise of mis-managing the economy and are calling for an end to his rule.

CATHY: We were in Haiti at the exact time last year in the same spot and there was no riots and it was very peaceful. So this came as a complete shock when it all began.

REPORTER 2: For days many people have been forced to stay at home in Port-Au-Prince as thousands of protest has demanded resignation president Jovenel Moise. They accuse him of failing to rebuild the economy and deal with corruption.

HEATHER: Where we are located is about four hours west Port au Prince which is the only international airport really in Haiti. There is [unintelligible] throughout the city of Port au Prince, a lot of demonstrations with rock throwing, tyre burning, cement barricade building and clashes with the police has left many injured and several killed. And we're being told that at the barricades the protesters are asking for money and even taking people for a ransom to make their point that they're very unhappy with the government.

[Angry noise]

PROTESTOR 1: We are going to burn the country down if he does not step down.

PROTESTOR 2: We need a new government a government that cares about the youth. We are tired of the current system.

CATHY: One clinic that we did get it through a roadblock to go up into the mountains. We actually had a gas bomb thrown at us, but our driver had connections with the national police so he called in a favor and we had an escort to the road to the mountain. Coming back wasn't as easy. They had roadblocks all the areas off. And we had gone through a dirt pass that he was aware of to get back safely to our house, and our driver had a gun, too. So it was something that I really don't want to go through again.

REPORTER 3: A man shot dead by police. His body lying near the presidential palace as angry crowds gather in protest.

[Gun shot]

HEATHER: We're not worried about our safety as long as we don't leave the province that we're in right now. But we're a bit stressed because we have obligations at home that we probably not going to be able to meet if we don't get home soon.

CATHY: As heather said, we all have job obligations and family obligations to get back to. Everybody knows the hospital runs short staff as it is, and both Heather and I are work in emergency and we have to be back for Saturday.

HEATHER: We're hoping and praying too that this all resolves and that we get home to our respective families very soon. We're just going to take it day by day and hope that we can figure out a safe way to make it to the airport.

PC: By the way the CBC has heard today from other Canadian stranded in Haiti who say they are not getting the help they needed from the Canadian government. Next week on The Current we will look at what has led to this point in Haiti and what the unrest means for a country that many hoped was finally coming out of years of turmoil.

[Music]

PC: I'm Piya Chattopadhyay and you listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Climate change and our environmental challenges are one of the biggest existential threats to our way of life and in order for us to combat that threat, we must be as ambitious and innovative in our solution as possible.

VOICE 2: I say today that it is time for us to [unintelligible] once again. We have the technology do it. We have the moral obligation. We have the economic imperative. The sun is setting on the dirty energy of the past. Today marks the dawn of a new era of climate action.

PC: That's New York congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Massachusetts Senator Ed Markey. They were announcing their plans last week to tackle climate change. As part of what's billed as the Green New Deal, the plan aims to make the US carbon neutral with net zero carbon emissions in 10 years. Although the plan does not advocate for specific ways to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, some say the plan should include nuclear energy. We'll get to how fission is causing fissures in the environmental community. But first can more nukes be good nukes? My first guest thinks so. Josh Freed is a senior vice president for the clean energy program at Third Way Energy, it is a Washington based think tank. He's in our Washington D.C. studio.

JOSH FREED: Hello.

PC: Hello. Before we get to your environmental argument for nuclear energy, just what are your general thoughts on the green new deal?

JOSH FREED: That green new video has propelled climate change as part of the national conversation in a way that we haven't seen for a long time. That's the good news. The challenges that it actually isn't a plan. It's a resolution that once again acknowledges the challenge and existential threat that climate change presents and lays out some principles that the two authors believe need to be followed, and then leaves it to Congress and others to fill in the details. There are science that has been established that provides a pathway for how we should address climate change. That is the part of the conversation that we need to really embark in now, along with ensuring that we consider the economics of addressing climate change and the impact it's going to have on workers.

PC: Okay, more concept than plan short on specifics. Does it say anything about nuclear energy?

JOSH FREED: Interesting the plan itself doesn't it actually doesn't say anything about technologies beyond goals of achieving 100 percent clean renewable and zero carbon energy.

PC: So why do you believe that nuclear energy should be part of the solution to climate change? Make your case.

JOSH FREED: Very straightforward case. Nuclear energy provides zero emissions electricity today and the countries that use nuclear power, including the United States, Canada, France, Sweden, the United Kingdom are on a faster clear path to eliminate carbon emissions from their electricity sector than other countries, particularly countries like Germany that have decided to retire nuclear power and instead are really struggling with higher energy prices and figuring out different ways to reduce emissions. And in the United States - in many of the locations where nuclear power plants have been shut down for a variety of reasons - what we've seen is that they have been replaced by fossil fuel burning power plants; core or natural gas. When nuclear shuts down, unfortunately carbon emissions rise, and that is just a cruel math that we have to grapple with.

PC: Okay and just spread a bit of context, the U.S. is responsible for about 14 percent of the world's emissions. So when you talk about your own country, where do you think nuclear power should fit into the global fight against climate change?

JOSH FREED: Yes that's a great question. And what we are seeing is that countries that have nuclear need to continue to use it. And there is an opportunity to develop a next generation of nuclear power plants that provide a lot of flexibility even more security and resistance to proliferation and can be used in developed economic nations; Europe, the United States, Canada. And can be deployed in emerging markets; Africa, Indonesia, China and other places both for electricity but also critically for providing 24 by seven power for industrial processes so that the economies of these nations continue to grow, and there can be more well-paying middle class jobs.

PC: Okay. I want to play you a clip. So this is out Gregory Jaczko, former U.S. nuclear regulatory commission chairman. He was speaking to Bloomberg News this week about the use of nuclear energy to curb climate change. Take a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

If you look right now what's happening in the nuclear world, nuclear power simply can't meet the goals of the clean deal. When I was chairman we license for new reactors in this country and today if you look at what's happening with those project two of them have been canceled. The other two are continuing to be built than they were supposed to be online a couple years ago. So if you look at the cost, the cost right now is 27.5 billion Dollars for two nuclear reactors. And that's not even including the nine billion for the plants that were cancelled. So when you talk about nuclear I just look at the facts and the facts are that it simply is not a technology that could scale up in a reasonable cost in the way that we need to really tackle environmental challenges like climate change.

PC: That is former U.S. nuclear regulatory commission chairman Gregory Jaczko on the Green New Deal and nuclear energy. He says nuclear energy simply can't meet the deadlines. Josh Freed how do you respond to that?

JOSH FREED: Well nuclear energy has already met the deadlines. I mean the nuclear power in the United States is the single largest source of zero emissions electricity that we have, and the power that it's providing is not getting credit for the fact that it doesn't emit any carbon pollution.

PC: Except he's saying we're not hitting our targets, our deadlines. It can't meet the overall need that we need to supply power to our country.

JOSH FREED: Well it's interesting you hear him say that but he hasn't provided a couple of details. A: What is the deadline? If you follow what the IPCC, the U.N.'s Commission on climate change, report in October laid out, we need to get to net zero emissions by 2050. Nuclear can absolutely be a critical part of that in the United States with the next generation of nuclear appliances that are under development both across the United States in new start-up companies and in Canada. And we have a company called New Scale that will be building its first plant in the United States in the middle of the 2020. It is smaller, more flexible, really designed to meet the energy needs of the 21st century U.S. economy.

PC: If 2050 is the deadline, as you said, the one that you're going to work with, it takes about two decades, 20 years to build a nuclear plant. So if you want to go ahead with your plan. You think we should we get on this.

JOSH FREED: Yes. I mean we need to get climate change regardless and it takes two decades with start and stop and building spoke clients here and there. And it's something that the United States unfortunately has been out of practice for several decades now on. But if you look at other countries around the world, you the United Arab Emirates, South Korea where they build a number of plants. They've got a clear design, expert, laborers. They can build it much more quickly and on time and the next generation of plants that are under development are also being designed to be built in factories, to be built are one unit after another so that they are being thought of explicitly with the acknowledgement that climate change is a real challenge. And that once we get one unit or two units or three units built more need to start falling quickly.

PC: Here's the other challenge. It's an economic one. The upfront costs of developing nuclear capacity are enormous. It costs billions to build plants. Why take that path when the alternative solar and wind power are becoming cheaper and faster to get them onboard our line?

JOSH FREED: They're not alternatives they're complementary. If you look at again the UN's report, if you look at the Union of Concerned Scientists - and any number of other very credible scientific research based institutions - what they have found is that we need as much renewables as that we can get and we need other sources of zero emitting energy for both the electricity sector, but then also to provide process heat for industry, to provide the ability to create more hydrogen for what will be an emerging hydrogen economy. So we need it all.

PC: Let me throw two place names out you Chernobyl and Fukushima. When people hear those words, hear the word nuclear, that's where their minds turn to and they literally shake in their boots. Why shouldn't people be scared after disasters like those?

JOSH FREED: Well look I've talked about nuclear power and any other number of solutions in the context of climate change and met with a lot of people who are concerned about nuclear. I haven't seen them really shake in their boots. But I understand their concerns about nuclear as there need to be concerned about any power source. Coal has been devastating to the environment and presented enormous challenges not just with the pollution that it emits when it's in use, but also the waste it leaves behind. The reality is that the track record of nuclear war is extremely safe around the world with the number of plants that are in operation. The biggest impact of the Fukushima disaster was the evacuation and other challenges surrounding that and the actual tsunami. However we need to make sure that nuclear plants that are built are extremely safe and that they have the kind of safety structures in security that are necessary for that power source.

PC: What kind of status does nuclear power how politically around the world right now? Like I just asked you about lay people's fears, whether they're shaking in their boots or just how concerned. They are they are right. But politically what kind of push and pull does that have?

JOSH FREED: It really depends on a country by country basis. So in Taiwan there is growing support for nuclear power. We see it similarly in the UK where there is a desire to move out of fossil fuels and other omitting sources of electricity and power. In Germany obviously there's strong opposition. In France it's a much more mixed bet. But as we see more concern in awareness of the scope of the challenge of climate change there are more and more people taking another look at nuclear.

PC: The management of nuclear waste is a serious concern and one that we always hear, including here in Canada. Given the controversy over handling the waste that we already have. Why would we want to add to the problem?

JOSH FREED: Waste is an issue and it needs to be dealt with. There needs to be an examination in each country with the communities that are involved with it on what the best solution for each community in each country is. But it is a solvable problem. In the United States the waste that is the spent fuel that is stored on site is stored and managed safely, and can eventually hopefully be used as a fuel source for the next generation of reactors.

PC: If countries don't embrace nuclear in a larger embrace than they already are, how likely is success in halting climate change?

JOSH FREED: Look I think any time you take a tool out of the tool belt to address climate change it becomes that much harder. It could be more expensive. It could take longer to address climate change and we may not be able to address it as robustly. So I think that if you really believe that climate change is the existential threat that we do, nuclear needs to be a very serious part of the solution.

PC: Josh Freed thank you for your time and your perspective today. I appreciate it.

JOSH FREED: Thank you very much.

PC: Josh Freed is Senior Vice President for the clean energy program at Third Way Energy a Washington based think tank. He's in Washington D.C.

SOUNDCLIP

[Demonstrators chanting]

REPORTER 1: Three years after the Fukushima disaster thousands of anti-nuclear demonstrators filled the streets of Tokyo.

PC: As you can hear in that clip of people protesting nuclear energy in Tokyo, not everyone is happy about fusing fission and environmentalism. Shawn-Patrick Stensil is among them. He is the senior energy analyst with Greenpeace Canada and radiation protection advisor to Greenpeace International. He's in our Toronto studio. Hi.

SHAWN-PATRICK STENSIL: Good morning.

PC: You had a chance to listen to our first guest. Generally what do you make of the argument that nuclear is an essential part in the fight against climate change?

SHAWN-PATRICK STENSIL: I think that argument is increasingly moot. Superficially nuclear power seems like a great option for fighting climate change, but when you look at the timelines that we need to stop climate change - the International Panel on Climate Change gives us 10 years to drastically reduce our emissions - it just can't do it. So it's not a question of whether it should be a solution. It's whether It can. In that sense you just can't build reactors quickly enough. And then of course there is all the other reasons why you wouldn't want to gamble or fight against climate change and nuclear power again. It's expensive and always over budget. It comes with other risks like Fukushima, and it means creating radioactive waste. What gives me hope though, is the alternatives are out there and there's an increasing movement to move to a 100 percent renewable energy. The civil society or Greenpeace have been calling on governments to lead that charge, but also communities that are just sick of waiting around for politicians are making commitments to go 100 percent renewable on their own.

PC: Okay so let me pick up. Let me let me pick up on what you just said about renewables. We can talk about Germany which has shut down its nuclear capacity, made huge investments in wind and solar only to see carbon emissions increase. So when I say that to you what do you put back to me?

SHAWN-PATRICK STENSIL: When you look at the details, Germany has made a long term commitment to an energy transition and that's for both closing down nuclear - which dates back decades and all the reactors will be close by 2021. Just last month it made a commitment to phasing out coal completely by 2038 which isn't soon enough, but they will be closing a third of their coal capacity within the next three years. It's pretty significant. And where emissions have gone up in Germany unfortunately they've been exporting to other European countries. So that's not about domestic demand but that's about using the European market.

PC: And if we look at neighboring France though, it gets most of its power from nuclear and has lower emissions. So put France into the equation.

SHAWN-PATRICK STENSIL: Yes France is often held up as the utopia where nuclear power worked. And they built a lot of reactors in the 1960s and 70s that are still operating. What's notable, it's not uncontroversial in France either. And France has made a commitment to lower its dependence on nuclear power from 75 percent to 50 over the next 15 years, and again to invest in renewables instead. So you can see this broad trend line globally of countries are either completely abandoning nuclear and coal or minimizing reducing their dependence on nuclear power.

PC: And where does Canada fit into all of that? What's the current state of nuclear power development in Canada?

SHAWN-PATRICK STENSIL: Nuclear power is in decline in Canada. We had 22 reactors that were built in the 1970s and 80s. And of those nine will be close by 2024 because of the high cost of operating them. So our reactor fleet is in fact getting smaller and we're not building new reactors. Even overseas where we've exported Canadian designed reactors, South Korea made a decision last year to close one of its Canadian reactors. That doesn't bode well for the other three. So in Canada I think the nuclear industry actually needs climate change more than climate change needs nuclear power because they're looking for a survival strategy.

PC: So I think you said 22 and nine are going to go off line. But right now we're working with 22 nuclear power plants in Canada. How much of our energy comes from those?

SHAWN-PATRICK STENSIL: It's principally New Brunswick where there's one reactor that provides about 30 percent of that province's power. And then Ontario. Quebec had a reactor that closed following the Fukushima disaster. And in Ontario we have three stations. The Pickering station will be closed in 2024. They provide a significant amount about 50 percent of our electricity. What's important moving forward is the government is aware that keeping reactors aligned, not everything goes well and they've made a commitment to off ramps. What that means is in the event there are more cost overruns to keep those reactors operating, they could shut them down. And from the point of view of Greenpeace this is part of the nuance conversation of fighting climate change. We should be prepared for that eventuality that these other reactors close and be able to replace them with renewables and other low carbon options, because they're getting old and we need to be ready for their retirement.

PC: You've been to both Chernobyl and Fukushima a few years back. What did those experience teach you about the future of nuclear power and what was your takeaway?

SHAWN-PATRICK STENSIL: It was the human element. I think in North America it’s very easy for some pundits from their armchairs to minimize the impact of these disasters but when you are there and you meet people that have been displaced by these disasters, that have been evacuated, that we're told originally that this would never happen. You should feel safe with this reactor here. You really feel again it's a human disaster and not just in environmental disaster. It's almost 10 years since the Fukushima disaster. Over a hundred thousand people were evacuated. Many of those people now are being told by the government you need to go back to those contaminated areas or we're going to cut you off from compensation. So they need to go back to their homes that apparently have low levels of contamination but they had no choice in that. They have to make these decisions. Mothers need to make daily decisions on whether they'll let their kids play in the yard because of radioactive hotspots. It's at that level that I was really touched by how these disasters can change your mindset. And I think that's why you're seeing Japan moving off nuclear power in other countries as well.

PC: How much need to sprout up radioactive hotspots and individuals having to make decisions in these places where there are disasters. Do I go back and take that risk despite what the science may or may not tell me? How much should we worry about nuclear waste? Not just for obviously from disasters, but nuclear waste in general when considering atomic power as an option,

SHAWN-PATRICK STENSIL: We need to realize is the big trade-off there. Nuclear power produces electricity in the present and it leaves a legacy for future generations. That's an environmental issue, yes. But it's also an ethical issue of what will leaving future generations. The same ethical issues we're facing with climate change, doing emissions today is burdening the next generation of kids - with myself even Gen Xers - with having to live in that type of environment. And so I don't think that's not insignificant. It's been 50 years that the industry has been trying to find solutions for managing radioactive waste but it's effectively an intractable problem. We need to isolate those toxins from the environment for a million years.

PC: You're a proponent of renewables and as our first guest pointed out his criticism of that is that you got to back it up with coal power plants, at least in some kind or short term or for looking at a long time span. What do you say to that? Because people look at climate change in one of two ways are in two ways, right, which is like the immediate facts we need to do something right now for the long term, but also long term. So there are people who are going to say 'we've got to stop coal right now'. And his argument is like you're not going to be able to stop coal by just bringing renewables online because we’re going to have to back it up. You say what to that?

SHAWN-PATRICK STENSIL: Nuclear power plants have to be backed up as well. When a nuclear power plant goes off you need something just as big to turn up so the lights don't go out. So in Ontario we have a really big gas plant, we used to have really big coal points to back them up. So there's that. With renewables though what was really giving me hope is we've seen the development over the past decade of storage technology. Basically the fact that markets have been bringing on renewables that, yes, solar is only available during the day. It's variable and wind goes up and down. That has spurred investment in other innovation on how do we store power for when we need it. It was just two years ago that the energy storage Association of Canada was founded. And those technologies are what will allow us to balance out an energy system that's based on renewables in the long term.

PC: You know what's so interesting about talking with you and our previous guest Josh Freed? You're both environmentalists. You're both on the scene side and yet this debate exists within that community. It's not about pitting right against left, or nuclear proponents against renewables. It's this one community of [unintelligible] community having this debate. At the end of the day who wins this? In terms of a movement how much of this is really a debate and who's kind of got the upper hand if I can put it that way?

SHAWN-PATRICK STENSIL: Well I think the upper hand is coming from the momentum we're seeing from the grass roots. And that's seen in the green new deal in the United States where instead of pushing for incremental change, we're pushing for a visionary change. It's a climate crisis and we need to act like it. Municipalities are more and more making their own commitments and plans to go 100 percent renewable. In the United States there's 90 cities and towns and counties that have made those commitments. In Canada. Oxford County, Guelph in Ontario, Nelson, Regina in Vancouver have all commitments to go to 100 percent renewable. That for me is where the puck is going and we're going to see that increase in the years to come. None of those communities are frankly talking about whether nuclear is an option or not. They just want to get around to getting projects off the ground in reducing their emissions.

PC: Thank you very much Shawn-Patrick Stensil. Appreciate your time.

SHAWN-PATRICK STENSIL: Thank you.

PC: Shawn-Patrick Stansil is the senior energy analyst with Greenpeace Canada. That is The Current for this Friday. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. And don't forget Sunday at noon. You can catch me in my regular gig hosting Out in the Open here on CBC Radio One. I'll be speaking with world renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel. Esther says the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives but that we don't talk about them in-depth enough.

SOUNDCLIP

We brush over them. We trample them we neglect them. We dismiss them. We put achievement and products ahead of people. Many many people in need of having difficult conversations. Somebody they an apology too for ever. Really the fabric of our society is relationships.

PC: I'm Piya Chattopadhyay. Thank you for lending s your you're here on the Friday edition of The Current.

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Friday February 15, 2019 Full Transcript

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