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The AIH Transcript for February 13, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Nana aba Duncan

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

NANA aba DUNCAN: Good evening. I'm the Nana aba Duncan. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

NaD: Tonight...

CO: Paternal flame. Fired-up former Chief Bill Wilson says the Prime Minister should learn some lessons from his daughter -- former Attorney General Jody Wilson-Raybould.

NaD: Minding their own business. A columnist says that, despite all the scandals, the price of coming down hard on SNC-Lavalin would be far too steep for too many Quebecers.

CO: Erup-tile dysfunction. A lava flow on Hawaii's Mount Kilauea inspired our guest to become a volcanologist -- and now that it's dried up, she's gushing over its legacy.

NaD: Their cross to bear is bears not to cross. A small town in Siberia has been invaded by polar bears -- and wildlife officers aren't sure how to stop them from walking into apartment buildings and chasing people.

CO: The rib-eye of the storm. Officials with the European Union Agency say spies are all over Brussels, and they warn diplomats to avoid one particular steakhouse -- but its owner doesn't understand what their beef is.

NaD: And horns of plenty. There's a reason a majestic Angus bull named 'America' was just auctioned off for world record price -- his potential to procreate drew wealthy bidders who heard his siring song. As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio that invites you to a star stud affair.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: 'No question' Jody Wilson-Raybould will tell the truth about why she quit, says her father

SNC Lavalin: Chief Bill Wilson

Guest: Chief Bill Wilson

NaD: Justin Trudeau wasn't going easy on his former Attorney General this afternoon. The Prime Minister was in Sudbury, Ontario. He was questioned about Jody Wilson-Raybould's resignation -- and allegations that she'd been improperly pressured about the criminal prosecution of SNC-Lavalin. Here's what the Prime Minister had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

PRIME MINISTER JUSTIN TRUDEAU: As a government, we take very seriously our responsibility to grow the economy, to invest in jobs, to invest in a strong future for Canadians. But the way we do that is always consistent with the rules and the norms and the principles of the independence of the judiciary and the rule of law. If anyone -- any minister, including the former Attorney General, felt that there was -- that we were not living up to that standard, it was her responsibility to come and speak to me directly about that. She did not do that in the fall. And she accepted another position in this government when I made the cabinet shuffle. So we are going to continue to work hard, to build a stronger economy, and always respect the rule of law in this country.

NaD: That was Prime Minister Trudeau speaking to reporters in Sudbury, Ontario. As we go to air Jody Wilson-Raybould has yet to respond. Nor has she explained her resignation. Bill Wilson is Jody Wilson-Raybould's father. We reached him in Vancouver.

CO: Chief Wilson you just heard the Prime Minister say that if your daughter had a problem, she didn't make those concerns known to him -- and it was up to her to do so. What do you say to him?

BILL WILSON: Well I think he is full of baloney. Obviously this is the fifth version of his truth. The reality is now he's campaigning in Quebec through this fiasco. And the SNC-Lavalin of course, a major major contributor to the Liberal Party, and a major contributor to the economy of Quebec. I understand and appreciate that. But the reality is -- for him to boldface tell the Canadian public that my daughter is a liar, to me, is as big a farce as his commitment to Aboriginal people. He lied about that. I happen to believe that he's lying about this as well and I certainly hope that we can get to the bottom of this -- not just as an Aboriginal person and not just as the father of the former Justice Minister, but as a Canadian citizen because the foundation of the rule of law has been violated.

CO: When you say that he's accusing her of being a liar, what are you referring to?

BW: Well if she had something to complain about...she should have come to him, and she did not -- that to me, is pretty much close to telling the Canadian public that Jody Wilson is a liar. That is absolutely ridiculous. I mean the reality is that the cabinet system is geared to the prime minister being the boss. I mean you are really lower down on the hierarchy. And when he kicked her out of the Attorney General's portfolio -- I mean he was exercising his authority of control over her. She is removed from one of the highest offices in the country. She's the highest legal authority. She's a woman. She's a native. She's a trailblazer. She's an example to all Canadians. And then she's demoted -- kicked in the teeth by the Prime Minister, and then given the carrot in front of the donkey -- low cabinet portfolio -- the cabinet portfolio, with all due respect to veterans. The only one lower than that is Indian Affairs -- and that's already occupied by two people who are not doing anything. So there's no question about the fact that she was demoted -- and I think put, if we can give her a cabinet post maybe she's dumb enough to accept it and then she'll keep quiet.

CO: Has your daughter talked to you even indirectly? Has she given you any indication as to what happened?

BW: No. No. I realized when she got elected and especially when she got into cabinet, that you know she would be prohibited even from very casual conversation. She certainly wouldn't tell me anything about what went on there. I mean she's an honest person and she was raised properly. And the reality is that you know after the pact I'm sure she'll tell me the whole story. But she's an honourable person and she will exercise her integrity within the bounds of the law -- as it describes. I hope by the adequate counsel that she's retained.

CO: But I'm sure you know better than I -- but it appears, your daughter is not a quitter. She's not the sort of person who quits. So what would make her quit the cabinet?

BW: Well I think because she was prohibited from telling the truth. Now, for her to keep the extra 200,000 dollars in salary -- which cabinet ministers make more than MPs do, as well as all the perks that go along with it -- would be very very hard to resist. I'm not entirely sure that I would be able to resist that. But finally I think she realised that in order to tell the truth that she would have to come clean and do it. Now she's done it, and I'm very proud of her for doing that.

CO: So the reason why she has resigned is in order to tell the truth, do you believe that she will do that? Do you have any sense that she's now going to come forward and tell us what happened?

BW: Well she hasn't said that to me, but knowing how she was raised there's no question -- she will come forthright and honest and tell exactly what went on. And I'm afraid that in all probability this is going to cause a huge scandal.

CO: When you say it's going to cause a lot of damage, a lot of scandal, do you think that when your daughter finally speaks and tells her story that it will cause serious damage to the Liberal Party?

BW: Well it could very well topple the government. I mean it is that serious. I mean that's not her purpose. I mean she's standing up in a position of power that no Indian has ever had before to make a decision about whether or not you give a free pass to a company who freely admitted that it was doing illegal activities. And she said no. At least that's my assumption that she has said no -- and when she comes out and confirms that then all the country should applaud her because she's standing up for the basic laws that we all supposedly support -- and maybe she will be the Prime Minister.

CO: That reminds us there is a clip, a tape, from you in 1983 basically saying that you told another Prime Minister Trudeau, which was Pierre Trudeau, you said that your daughter might want to become Prime Minister one day.

BW: I have two beautiful daughters who are talented and educated and cultured. One's name is Kory Wilson -- and her name is Puglid. One is named Jody Wilson Raybould -- and her name is Puglaas. Puglid means the lady who feeds people well. Puglaas means high born, noble, honest person. So my mother educated them -- and couldn't have predicted better the kind of integrity that's necessary for the obvious firestorm that Jody finds herself in. But both of them are quality people that were raised properly by women. And that's one of the things that really bothers me about this -- you not only have an Aboriginal person as the highest ranking legal office -- you have a woman. And I don't know what that says to women generally that they can be treated this shabbily.

CO: You said in 1983 -- you told Justin Trudeau's father, you told Pierre Trudeau, that one of your daughters might become Prime Minister. So how do you think Jody Wilson-Raybould feels about that job today. Do you think she wants it?

BW: I'm sure she would love to have it based on the kind of integrity and honesty that she wants to bring to the party and to Canada and more importantly. The fact is that she is a Liberal in the sense of a small 'l' liberal with basic human rights consideration -- and that was bred in her by her relatives.

CO: Do you think that she would in telling the truth -- she would do so, even if she knows it might bring down the government?

BW: I have no question about that. Really that's what this controversy is about. Don't you think cover up -- and the whole question of [inaudible] the support from SNC-Lavalin and other groups like that is an indication of the kind of measures to which companies will go, and to which governments will bend in order to have access to more money and more power.

CO: If you could speak with your daughter right now, what would you say to her?

BW: I love you.

CO: Anything else?

BW: She's probably smarter than I am, so what advice I could give it right -- I don't know. I'm 75 years old almost, and I've only got another 40 or 50 years to live. So stay strong and remember who you are -- you are Puglaas -- you are a descended from royal blood in our tribe.

CO: Chief Wilson I appreciate speaking with you thank you.

BW: Thank you very much.

NaD: Bill Wilson is a hereditary chief, and Jody Wilson-Raybould's father. We reached him in Vancouver. In Ottawa today, the Liberals shot down the opposition's hopes of having Ms. Wilson-Raybould appear before an inquiry of the House of Commons Justice Committee. Here's NDP MP Nathan Cullen.

SOUNDCLIP

NATHAN CULLEN: We are given this role on behalf of Canadians to simply say this is a sophisticated legal bookclub -- that we can explore and study and contemplate these things would be to forego our responsibilities when we see something like this here. The witnesses you've offered are suspect in the sense that they've already made themselves known and their opinions on this. The other principal actors -- and I'm going to say this now and I'll say it again, we should perhaps stop trying to speak for Jody Wilson-Raybould. We can invite her. If you do want to hear from her, put her on the list. If my Liberal colleagues think that hearing from Jody Wilson-Raybould isn't of interest to Canadians -- if my Liberal colleagues think that not hearing from the principal secretary to the prime minister who is implicated in this affair is not of interest to Canadians, and that his senior adviser Mr. (Mathieu) Bouchard is not of interest to Canadians -- I'll let you try to explain that. This is as obvious as the nose on my face. This is something that we've got to do. The nose on my face is pretty obvious. So I think we should get on with it.

NaD: That was NDP MP Nathan Cullen speaking at the House of Commons Justice Committee this afternoon.

SNC Lavalin: Quebec

Guest: Patrick Lagace

NaD: The allegations of wrongdoing on behalf of SNC-Lavalin have another layer of meaning in Quebec. Patrick Lagace is a La Presse columnist. He's no stranger to SNC's reputation for dodgy deals. But in his column today, he says the price of prosecuting the company could simply be too high. We reached Patrick Lagace in Montreal.

CO: Patrick just how big a deal is SNC-Lavalin in Quebec?

PATRICK LAGACE: It's a huge deal. It is a behemoth. An economic powerhouse -- 3000 employees in Quebec. A huge headquarters in downtown Montreal. 50,000 employees worldwide. But it's also a point of pride -- symbol of 'Quebec Inc' as we call it. So yeah it's a huge huge deal.

CO: But you write in your column today that the company got itself into this situation -- it put its own foot in the trap and it is responsible for this. So first of all maybe remind our listeners just how deep into hot water is SNC?

PL: A number of their officials -- starting with the former CEO Pierre Duhaime -- pled guilty to charges, criminal charges, that they acted on behalf of the company to get contracts -- for instance in Montreal where this huge hospital was being built and Duhaime looked the other way as he said when he pled guilty to this saga where I think it was 20 million that was paid to some individuals at the hospital to secure the contract. So you could say that there's been a huge downfall for this company. And yesterday actually one of my colleagues from La Presse got his hand on some affidavits that the RCMP submitted to the court to raid SNC-Lavalin last March -- in another affair where SNC got into a 127-million dollar contract to repair a bridge in Montreal. And the guy who took the money -- a guy named Michel Fournier -- he was the head of the federal bridge corporation here -- took a bribe of 2.5 million dollars around the time that SNC-Lavalin got a 127-million dollar contract to repair the Jacques Cartier Bridge. And this guy Fournier never said who gave him the money, but the RCMP is on the track of the people who gave money to this guy -- and they've named two former senior officials from SNC-Lavalin.

CO: So that is just the Canadian cases. I mean then we go around the world. And in particular the situation in Libya of bribes that were paid. And that's the case that they were hoping to have differed. They were hoping that they would have something called a remediation agreement so that they didn't have to take a criminal prosecution -- they could come up with some kind of a deal. A woman by the name of Kathleen Roussel who is the director of public prosecutions. She looked at this -- she said nope, I'm going to go ahead with the public prosecution. So everything you've just said including all the other things we could spend 10 more minutes talking about all of this with SNC-Lavalin, isn't that what we should expect to see happen?

PL: Look the general consensus among the commentary here in Quebec and the business world and even layperson you know because we all know people who work at Lavalin -- it's 'let's get a deal' because the 3000 people work at Lavalin. The thousands of former employees who depend on Lavalin for their pensions, they don't deserved to be punished if the company is crippled or the company is sold or if the company folds. But we don't know why Ms. Roussel is refusing to allow Lavalin to go into this deferred prosecution agreement. Maybe she has got very good arguments -- but we don't know. And you know I wrote in La Presse today -- I just want to remind people that this old thing is not this anonymous prosecutors fault. It's not Mrs. Wilson-Raybould's fault. I don't think it's even Justin Trudeau's fault. It all starts with a culture of corruption in one of our biggest symbol in Quebec Inc --SNC Lavalin. It starts with SNC-Lavalin. If they had not been [inaudible] this whole thing would not be unfolding in Ottawa right now. And you know reading some of the comments I was getting a bit mad because a lot of the analysis passed over the facts.

CO: Is that how Quebecers feel? I mean is this ambivalence at the heart of Quebec thinking right now?

PL: I don't think that there's much ambivalence. I think everybody is holding its breath. Nobody wants to see Lavalin fail, being crippled, bought, sold, or destroyed. So people are focusing on that and people are kind of saying you know why this anonymous prosecutor in Ottawa unwilling to accommodate SNC-Lavalin? And I understand these questions. I understand the preoccupations. But at the same time grudgingly you know I agree with them, but I feel the urge again to remind people that SNC-Lavalin had a culture of corruption. And you know people will say you know they changed governance, they've cleaned house -- that's all very well, but at the time when these guys were corrupting officials here and elsewhere SNC-Lavalin's board was always first in class for governance. I remember them being you know in all of these Globle and Mail top 10 list of corporate governance. So you know I think there's something to be said about how sometimes corporate governance, as they call it very poetically, is kind of useless if you have individuals who are enthralled in a culture of paying their way to get contracts.

CO: We'll leave it there. Patrick thank you.

PL: Thank you.

NaD: Patrick Lagace is a columnist with La Presse. We reached him in Montreal.

[Music]

Brussels Spy Restaurant

Guest: Philippe Weiner

NaD: Brussels is teeming with spies. Best to avoid the steakhouse. That's the gist of a recent alert sent out by the European Union's diplomatic wing, to dozens of embassies in the Belgian capital. A memo leaked from the European External Action Service to Germany daily newspaper "Die Welt" warned diplomats last week about the presence of 200 Russian spies and 250 Chinese spies said to be prowling around the capital. It also advised diplomats to avoid dining at a popular steakhouse near the European Commission headquarters. Philippe Weiner is a bit flabbergasted. He's the owner of Meet Meat Steak and Wine House -- the only steakhouse in the area. We reached him in the midst of a dinner rush.

CO: Mr. Weiner is your steakhouse a hangout for Russian spies?

PHILIPPE WEINER: [Chuckles] No -- I have no idea honestly. It's a restaurant. I operate one small restaurant of 65 seats so it's noisy very, very busy. You have people from commission, ambassadors, politician who have lunch you know within one hour. I think it's just one break in the day so this is not the place to discuss about business.

CO: You haven't looked under the table to see if there are any microphones planted there?

PW: No. No of course no. It's impossible. It's too noisy. Even the people in front of you, it's quite difficult to hear. It's a busy place.

CO: Who does come to your restaurant? What famous diplomats and politicians come to the Meet Meat Steak and Wine House?

PW: You have some diplomats. Many people from the Canadian embassy. You have functionaries. You have in the area hundred to thousand people who are working, so it's the concentrate of Europe in this area. You have a different level functionary. You have Christmas party. You have team building. You have some commissioner with assistants. You have people who live in the area. You have prime minister from countries who are coming in Brussels for the European summit. You have the police. You have the driver. You have [laughs] all kinds of people who are working in the area.

CO: But do you think that would be a great target for spies then? Right, if you have all those people there.

PW: Impossible because the restaurant is always fully booked for lunch. We receive an email on the website -- so we have the email address and we attribute the table to a person so you cannot come and choose 'well I want to be seated next to this person' -- it's impossible.

CO: And you haven't seen any spies...

PW: We organize, we know every day it's the same people -- so we know this person likes this table or this person likes this table.

CO: But I hear that now -- is it true that the European Council President Donald Tusk comes to your steakhouse quite often?

PW: No, no. He did twice.

CO: What does he like about your steaks? What are all these famous people like these politicians and prime ministers -- what do they like about your steaks?

PW: Depending [chuckles]. They love Argentinian beef. So I had the Prime Minister of Canada -- who came twice at my restaurant.

CO: How long ago? Was that recently?

PW: It was in 2013.

CO: So that was Mr. Harper. Did you have Stephen Harper coming?

PW: Probably [laughs]. I have the letter of the ambassador to thanks for the visit -- the people have fillet steak or ribeye steak chips and pepper sauce -- and just a quick lunch and that's it. And we do our best to provide the best quality.

CO: You're making me very hungry as you talk about this. Just go back to the spies for a moment here. So this account, this service, the European External Action Service says there are 200 Russian spies and they say 250 Chinese spies all over the streets of Brussels around these embassies and around your restaurant. Have you noticed anything unusual going on?

PW: From my point of view it seems to be normal [chuckles]. In Washington you probably have some spies. In Paris. In Berlin. Everywhere. A place where you have the power you have some spies. People wants to know what has happened there or what will happen. So it doesn't surprise me. Maybe they reference to James Bond.

CO: Now has this rumor that you have spies and warnings about your restaurant -- is that hurting your business at all?

PW: It's quite scary. I'm not comfortable with that.

CO: What's scary?

PW: We have one big service -- just the next door who are [inaudible] people to go to your place. It's not a good thing. It's not very fair from my point of view.

CO: Did you tell them that -- that it's not fair for them to single out your...

PW: I think it's the letter of one person -- I will investigate this week.

CO: Aha. So how will you investigate?

PW: I have to understand why -- who and why sent this letter. It's quite stupid. I don't understand.

CO: Maybe it's your competition.

PW: No.

CO: Maybe it's another steak.

PW: I don't think so.

CO: So if I wanted to get a reservation at your restaurant -- you could still do that this week, even with all these warnings. So was it difficult to get a reservation at your restaurant?

PW: This week is fully booked. But for the next week you go on the website and you reserve a table. It's very easy.

CO: All right. We'll put the word out. Mr. Weiner it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

PW: Thank you Carol. Bye bye.

NaD: Philippe Weiner is the owner of Meet Meat Steak and Wine House in Brussels. That's where we reached him.

[Music]

Dateline: New York City

NaD: Dateline: New York City.

[Music]

NaD: There they stood: the six finalists. The best of the best. Each one a bold competitor who didn't know the meaning of "failure" or "success," for that matter. Or "helicopter" or "salad" or "noun" -- I mean they're the finest dogs, but they are still dogs. Last night at the annual Westminster Kennel Club, a wire fox terrier named King was declared "best in show" -- defeating the likes of Burns the long haired dachshund, Wilma the boxer, and Baby Lars the bouvier des Flandres. I don't know what that means either. The judge, Peter Green, said King won because the terrier is quote "As good as it gets. Everything about it -- the head, the expression. Everything is really, really as good as it gets." And yet before the "best in show" competition, Judge Green had a different suggestion about what would make one particular dog the champion. Judge Green said it would come down to quote "which one wants it more." I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that none of the half-dozen finalists wanted it at all. Because they had no idea why they were in that big noisy room. No idea their owners were desperately counting on them to look cool and not pee on a judge. Still I guess King came through at crunch time. Even if all the crunching was just a bunch of doggy treats.

[Music]

Part 2: 'A whole generation' of scientists mourn end of 35-year Hawaiian volcano eruption

Hawaii Volcano Dry

Guest: Jackie Caplan-Auerbach

NaD: The lava has stopped flowing, but the memories are gushing in. After going dormant last summer, the Pu'u O'o lava flow in Hawaii's Mount Kilauea has officially been declared dry. For 35 years, it flowed almost constantly and inspired a generation of volcano scientists. Jackie Caplan-Auerbach is among them. She's an associate professor and associate dean of geology at Western Washington University. She's written a eulogy of sorts for the volcano. We reached her in Bellingham, Washington.

CO: Jackie the first time you stood beside the molten lava of this volcano, what was that experience like?

JACKIE CAPLAN-AUERBACH: It was pretty mind blowing you know. I had never seen anything like that before. You know I guess it's one of these things that you see photos of and you know should be possible, but actually seeing it, is quite a phenomenon. I suspect it's the same thing for the first time you see a tornado or some other great powerful thing. It really kind of blew me away to see that.

CO: Describe what it looks like and what it was like for you?

JACKIE CAPLAN-AUERBACH: Well at that time, this was in 1995, and you would simply drive down the end of the road and at the end of the road there were a bunch of cones and things blocked off and black hardened rock all over the road -- the road clearly dead ended. And then you would you know climb just really a few feet up that lava flow and there was red lava pouring by. And it was very oozy. You know it just kind of comes out of these little lobes -- we call that type of lava Pahoehoe -- and it's kind of a very gentle flow. Of course it's crazy hot and the heat is hard to describe. You know it's sort of like standing in front of a blast furnace. But just the fact that something so fundamental could be so accessible was really remarkable. And I think I just spent hours gawking at it.

CO: You and other volcanologists were all inspired or inspired by this and found it awesome. But at the same time it did a fair bit of damage, didn't it?

JACKIE CAPLAN-AUERBACH: It did. It's a very sobering experience. You know you're very inspired by what the planet has to offer, but it's important or it's you know hard to recognize that these things that excite us so much are also so detrimental to others. I think that's the case for everybody who studies hazards. It's the same thing for people who are studying earthquakes, and studying you know hurricanes -- and you are fascinated by the science but that fascination really has to be tempered by the effects of it.

CO: So the list of things that it either burned or buried: a village, a beautiful black sand beach with coconut trees, Protestant church, a Hawaiian temple -- almost took away a little wooden Catholic church but the parishioners moved it, right?

JACKIE CAPLAN-AUERBACH: They put it on a truck. That's right. They put it on a truck and carried it away. And of course it damaged -- you know it covered many many homes. There were hundreds of people who lost their homes over the course of this eruption. So it had a very significant impact. But of course it's that same process that made that land to begin with, you know, that black sand that was so beautiful was just a product of this eruption -- as was the land on which these things formed. So you know many people I've heard talk about this who live in these areas were able to be really thoughtful about the knowledge that they live on an active volcano and many of them really recognize fully that at some point -- Pele was the goddess of the volcano in Hawaiian lore -- that she wanted to take her land back -- she was going to take the land back.

CO: We had those same conversations with people. We've interviewed those who have watched their communities, their villages, their neighbourhoods disappear. And yet the same thing -- the attitude is that well it was just magnificent to watch, and we just respect this because this is where we live -- and it's not like 'what are you going to do? It was like wow! That's an impressive force. So always this kind of respect and actual love for this extraordinary event. Right?

JACKIE CAPLAN-AUERBACH: I think often that is the case. I'm certain you know that that's not to downplay the pain of losing one's home and one's community. I think losing the community probably is one of the things that is hardest for people because you know the schools are gone, and the areas that you used to gather, and your neighbours. And you know I can't imagine what that might feel like. So there certainly is pain associated with that wonder.

CO: What did this do for your career? This obviously made a great impression on you right from the beginning. How did that change your course?

JACKIE CAPLAN-AUERBACH: Seeing that lava was a thing that allowed me to choose where I wanted to go to graduate school, and that was the University of Hawaii -- realizing I could see that at any time was pretty striking. And that really was a lure to me. A lot of my research has focused on the next volcano over which is called Loihi volcano. And Loihi will one day presumably either be the next island in the Hawaiian chain or it will simply make the big island bigger. That said I kind of came full circle this summer when the eruption, when Pu'u O'o drained and the lava progressed down what's called the lower east drift zone. Some colleagues and I were able to get funding to put instruments offshore Kilauea to study the effect that this eruption had on its undersea flank. So really I've sort of come back to study Kilauea again.

CO: But this is the reason why we called you is that it's run dry, right? After all these like 35 years of this. And now it's stopped. There's no more spew. What happened?

JACKIE CAPLAN-AUERBACH: Well 'what happened' is going to be the big question that we'll be asking for quite some time and it will be the focus of a lot of science. And I think what's important is -- you're right -- the lava has temporarily run dry. The science has not. We have more questions maybe even than answers at this stage. You know we were able to use these eruptions to study how Kilauea develops, how it grows, what that process of bringing lava through you know magma from the mantle up into the volcano. But really understanding details about why it stops is something that we haven't yet you know completely established. So I think that will be the focus of a lot of work from here on out. We know that over the very long haul Kilauea erupts and it stops, and it erupts and it stops. All the volcanos in Hawaii have gone through that process. But it's the timeframe that we live in that is a little harder to establish. And I think really this is going to be an exciting time. Despite the quiescence it will be a really exciting time to learn more about the volcano.

CO: Okay we'll leave it there. Jackie thank you.

JACKIE CAPLAN-AUERBACH: My pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

NaD: Jackie Caplan-Auerbach is the associate dean of geology from Western Washington University. We reached her in Bellingham, Washington. And to see the professor with the lava flow that inspired her, you can go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Germany Syrian Arrests

Guest: Anwar al-Bunni

NaD: For years now Syrians in exile have been living side-by-side with people they've recognized from the war in their home country. People they say imprisoned or tortured them or killed their family members. Now German police have arrested two former Syrian intelligence officers for crimes against humanity. The men are only identified as Anwar R. and Eyad A. Anwar R. is accused of running a jail in Damascus where prisoners were routinely tortured. Eyad A. is suspected of working for him. Anwar al-Bunni is a Syrian human rights lawyer who has been helping German authorities pursue cases like this. He survived torture in a Syrian regime prison himself. We reached him in Berlin.

CO: Mr. al-Bunni what does it mean for you to see these two men, these intelligence officers from Syria, to see them arrested and charged in Germany?

ANWAR al-BUNNI: You know I have put my life for justice and to bring justice to the victims in Syria. And this is the first time who are arrested. It means a lot not for me personally, but it means a lot more for the victims.

CO: There are so many victims of the war in Germany from Syria. So many refugees ended up there. Hundreds of thousands went there. But among them obviously were those who had committed the crimes against these people. And you're now pushing the German authorities to arrest the people who actually were part of the crimes against these Syrians, right?

ANWAR al-BUNNI: Yeah for sure. And German authorities have a right with universal jurisdiction. Few countries who have these universal jurisdiction. Our research discovers that about 1000 refugees who have already arrived to Europe, they committed crimes against humanity and war crime.

CO: There are so many of these -- the possible criminals. But I want to ask you about just one of these men who has been arrested. We only know him as Anwar R. -- but this is somebody you knew before the war began. This is someone who arrested you. What happened to you at the hands of Anwar R.?

ANWAR al-BUNNI: He is colonel in the state security. He arrested me from the street. He kidnapped me from the street in 2006. So yeah I know him personally.

CO: How were you treated at the hands of this colonel when he arrested you in Syria?

ANWAR al-BUNNI: It's not about my revenge really. I saw him in Berlin in 2015. And I don't feel angry against him or like that. I know he's arrested me and beat me. But it's not about me. It's about hundreds -- I would not say thousands -- of victims who were not just arrested, but who were tortured, who were killed in the detention place between 2011 and 2012 when he left Syria.

CO: Anwar R. this colonel who had arrested you once -- he is allegedly the person -- he was in charge of the general security directorate prison in Syria and it was believed that up to thousands of Syrians were tortured there. The other man has been accused of aiding and abetting crimes against people at that same prison during that period of time. So those are the charges. Are there many witnesses? Are there many people who can come forward and testify?

ANWAR al-BUNNI: Yeah for sure. It's not about me. It's about at least four victims tortured by those people. And more than that they have witnesses about thousands. At least 2000 people who were arrested and tortured and some of them killed in this station.

CO: We heard a number of stories about these prisons around Damascus where many Syrians were taken -- and a lot of them were teachers and engineers and politicians and journalists and people who were against the regime -- this was their crime, is that they opposed the regime, right?

ANWAR al-BUNNI: Yeah yeah. I will give you one example. My friend -- 27 days when they released him, I saw him. I visited him in his home. He was in Europe. He told me in this 27 days 17 detainees die [inaudible] -- in one room in this detention -- 17 detainees die in between his hands. That's the situation in this branch.

CO: And these men have been arrested in Germany and charged and these are the allegations you're describing -- how will Germany be able to prosecute them? I mean will they have the evidence that they need to do that?

ANWAR al-BUNNI: They have the evidence. They have the witnesses. They have universal jurisdiction -- the country that a prosecutor can prosecute the perpetrators outside the land.

CO: Canada has this as well. And we can prosecute people for committing crimes elsewhere. In Canada the prosecutors found it very difficult to use this law because it's hard to get witnesses, it's hard to get evidence, it's hard to protect the witnesses against those who would go after them. So Canada has found it very difficult to do these prosecutions. Do you think that Germany will find it difficult as well?

ANWAR al-BUNNI: Yeah it's not easy but in Germany there is you know hundreds of thousands of refugees so we can find the victims easier.

CO: Do you think there will be more arrests, more Syrians arrested for crimes against humanity in Germany?

ANWAR al-BUNNI: I am sure -- we work on it.

CO: This has become your life's work in Germany -- as a refugee, to bring people to justice for what happened in your country.

ANWAR al-BUNNI: Yeah. I'm sure it's going to be done.

CO: All right Mr. al-Bunni we'll leave it there. I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

ANWAR al-BUNNI: Thank you very much.

NaD: Anwar al-Bunni is a Syrian human rights lawyer who now lives and works in Germany. He was in Berlin.

[Music]

Rat and toboggan

NaD: Yesterday was a rare snow day in Victoria, B.C. And 17-year-old Cole Salsman spent it on the toboggan hill. So things were going pretty well. Then they got a lot better. Or so much worse depending on who you asked. Today, Cole Salsman spoke with Robyn Burns, host of "All Points West" about what happened and what he caught on his GoPro.

SOUNDCLIP

COLE SALSMAN: Well you know I pressed record and I am starting to go down this hill. And I was looking out because there was a toboggan right in front of me and I was making sure I didn't hit them because I didn't know if they were going to hit the ramp or they weren't. Anyway, in the video I say "are we hitting the ramp boys?" And anyway, I hit this ramp, and out of nowhere a rat runs up the side of the ramp. We collide with each other in midair, and he bounces off me, goes around the toboggan that missed the hill -- little bump -- and keeps running over to the other side of the hill.

ROBYN BURNS: You smack right into a rat midair?

COLE SALSMAN: Yeah.

ROBYN BURNS: Oh. Did you know what had happened? Did you know it was a rat right away?

COLE SALSMAN: No I thought it was a piece of toboggan. I saw at the corner of my eye some black piece of something, and I was like oh somebody's toboggan totally snapped or something. And then I felt it obviously on me, and I was like that's a pretty squishy piece of plastic. So then I realized yeah that wasn't a piece of toboggan -- that was rat.

ROBYN BURNS: Ahh! So what happened next when you realized that it was not a piece of plastic -- it was definitely a rodent?

COLE SALSMAN: Yeah I was pretty shocked because I have never seen that before or heard of it. And the other toboggan, where there was just like the little girl who is in front, she was screaming. And then not everybody saw it. So it was pretty much just the people that were in that little area. Then when I got down I was just kind of freaking out like wow!

ROBYN BURNS: This juicy dude ricocheted right off of you though?

COLE SALSMAN: Yeah. Yeah. He was very squishy.

ROBYN BURNS: Oh. Did he scamper away? Like was he okay?

COLE SALSMAN: Oh yeah. He was going the same speed as he was coming into that hill. He was on a mission to get to the other side and he accomplished it -- just not the way he planned.

NaD: That was Cole Salsman speaking with CBC Radio's "All Points West" in Victoria about hitting a rat while tobogganing yesterday.

[Music]

Angus bull

NaD: "Long bodied, thick, square-hipped, deep and massive with a sound structure, large scrotal and gentle disposition." That is a pretty enticing description. I mean if it were a dating profile, who among us would not swipe right? At a recent auction, a number of swooning bidders did, in essence. And in the end all those accolades, plus an impressive lineage, pushed S-A-V America 8018's price to record heights. Along with the added bonus that quote "Semen orders have been accumulating since last summer and will go along with the sale of the bull." He is a breathtaking specimen, this Angus bull. Handsome and powerful, with a charming personality. To say nothing of the "large scrotal." He is the product of Schaff Angus Valley, a North Dakota cattle ranch. That's where the 'SAV' comes from. Everyone knew he was big. And everyone knew the auction would be big. But no one knew how big. Here's some audio from Saturday's big event. And as you're listening, keep in mind: the previous world record for a bull sold at auction was 800-thousand U.S.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: A million five fifty. Anybody else -- a million five fifty. Gotta go! A million five fifty? [someone speaks in audience] A million five hundred and ten thousand. I can hardly even say it. [Laughter] I got a million five-10. Now a million five-20 million? Anybody else -- a million five hundred and 20-thousand dollars. He left? [Laughter] The bull is sold one million five hundred and ten thousand dollars. [Applause].

NaD: Yes! 1.51-million dollars for the bull. A world record -- breaking the old one by more than 700,000 American. Now there are people who think the buyer overpaid, but they've obviously never seen this animal. An animal so majestic, he was solely responsible for making a bull market -- a bull market.

[Music]

Part 3: Siberian town under 'siege' as dozens of hungry polar bears invade

Global Athlete

Guest: Rob Koehler

NaD: From doping, to sexual abuse by coaches, to low pay for athletes, international sport is plagued by scandal. And a brand new organization says it has a solution: let athletes speak up. Global Athlete hopes that bringing competitors from around the world together will mean that their concerns will be taken seriously. These athletes are not happy. And they're looking for a lot more than a bunch of small changes. Eight Olympians and Paralympians are involved so far, including cycling gold medalist Callum Skinner. Rob Koehler is the director-general of Global Athlete and the former deputy director-general of the World Anti-Doping Agency. We reached him in Montreal.

CO: Mr. Koehler you left the World Anti-Doping Agency 'WADA' in order to lead this group called Global Athlete. Why is that?

ROB KOEHLER: You know part of my I'd say all my career -- one of my goals was to represent and protect athletes. Even when I worked in the anti-doping field, we were in place to ensure athletes rights were upheld -- ensure that there was a level playing field. And it's only a natural fit for me to move into a broader scope in helping athletes in a very challenging time I think where they feel that their rights are being represented. They feel, from what they've told me is, that anytime there's a voice of dissent in speaking out against things that are happening, that there is that fear of retribution, and they're demanding change and they want change to happen now.

CO: Your decision to leave WADA is it in any way related to WADA's decision to reinstate Russia into the Olympics after the scandal of 2014?

RK: You know Carol I think that's a discussion for another day on my exact reasons why I decided to depart, and I think moving forward is really what I like to do in terms of addressing the issue of Global Athlete and how that can be a positive change for the future.

CO: How disenchanted are athletes with the World Anti-Doping Agency at this point?

RK: You know I think the focus that the athletes that I'm speaking to right now is really trying to find a mechanism and a way to have a meaningful seat around the table -- to be able to affect and bring about change into the entire sporting world. I've heard the argument that athletes have told me that you know they've been told that they have one seat at the table, but one seat at the table in all sporting organizations when you're surrounded by 15 other people -- when you're creating rules for sport and athletes, shouldn't they have that equal standing around the table to help create and develop those rules?

CO: So what are the interests that they compete with and perhaps even have a stronger vote than the athletes -- I mean you'd think the public would think that the athletes are it. That's the cornerstone of this. Why else would we be having these competitions? It's about the athletes, so how much voice do they have? What are the competing interests for having decisions made?

RK: Yeah that's a very valid point. And I think that's where sport has changed. And when I say sport -- Olympic, Paralympic, and non-Olympic sport has changed dramatically over the past 20 years. And the athletes have felt that the structures that surround them haven't. And there's more commercialisation in sport. There's more revenue being generated by sport. It's a multibillion dollar industry. And the athletes engagement involvement hasn't changed to reflect that. One of the arguments that someone has spoken to me today about is you know you look at the professional leagues in North America -- take hockey for example, that used to be a very different sport until the unions came in place. And people think of a union as a negative connotation, but it brought balance to athlete rights, to athlete welfare, and to how the rules affect the athletes on the ice. And what's happened with that athlete engagement -- it hasn't stopped the growth, it has actually built the growth of the sport and the sport has never been healthier than it ever has been before.

CO: But how are you going to stand up to those powerful international athletic organisations we have been talking about?

RK: Well I mean one of the things that Richard Pound once told me was very clear -- he said there's one thing that will change the face of sport and that's when athletes stand up. When athletes mobilise and athletes demand change. We've seen issues in the U.S. just this past weekend with the snowboarders Jamie Anderson and Jessie Diggins who firmly disagreed with the president of the International Ski Federation who claim that climate change didn't exist -- that they were concerned about the well-being of the athletes and they stood up and were vocal about it. But the interesting thing that they said was almost everyone in this field is feeling the same way but they're afraid to voice their opinions.

CO: It's not just the doping issue, right? This is all like sexual harassment, exploitation, sexual assault, so many cases involved. Even in Canada we are dealing with this -- new CBC News and Sports investigation revealing hundreds of coaches involved in amateur sports have been convicted of sex offences. I mean so how much do you need to change? How much do you need to take on here?

RK: You know it's not a doping issue. If we look at grassroots sports -- even in Canada -- where parents have put their children into sport because 1) they want to create values 2) they want a healthy environment, and they want to keep them off the streets -- to divert their attention and keep them busy. And sport brings a lot of value. But the other thing that happens is they're taught at a very young age that if a parent speaks out -- if an athlete speaks out, they run the risk of either being sidelined, not being picked for a team, or being put on the bench and less time on the field. Now I'm not saying all sport is like that. But it's a trend that is potentially coming forward where we talk about the power imbalance. And I think bringing back that balance of power -- putting the athletes at the forefront is one of the key solutions we need to have. That their empowerment is there, they have the ability to speak up in a safe environment, and if not being governed in self-approach and self-fixing within the sport.

CO: We will leave it there. Mr. Koehler I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

RK: It's my pleasure. Thank you.

NaD: Rob Koehler is the director general of the organization Global Athlete. We reached him in Montreal.

[Music]

Frightening situation

NaD: When a 5-year-old in Brandon, Manitoba, got into a high kitchen cupboard, he wasn't interested in the medications his mother kept there. He was interested in the chocolate. Which he generously shared with his two-year-old sister. But that chocolate bar was infused with cannabis. The kid's mother spoke with CBC reporter Riley Laychuk about that frightening situation. We've agreed not to identify her because she fears for her safety and the safety of her children.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I always keep that stuff up and out of reach at the highest point of the cupboards. I would never intentionally put my kids at the risk of getting into anything. He's never gone into that cupboard. He knows not to go into that cupboard and everything else, but I guess sometimes kids don't listen. So yeah I guess he saw those and grabbed them. And he brought them upstairs where his sister was and he shared them with her. When I found them they seemed like they were okay. They just seemed like a little bit tired maybe, but they still were really responsive. And so I thought well maybe it's like with an adult body you just wait it through. My oldest, he ended up puking up twice. We just kept feeding him water because he wanted water, and he wanted to eat and stuff like that so we just kept feeding him. But around 3 p.m. my daughter started having seizures. So we called 9-1-1. I was a mess. I was crying because I didn't know what was about to happen or anything else. They had to put her on two different medications to make the seizures stop. The second round of medications did work to stop the seizures, but her eyes had stopped responding and they had to sedate her and put her on breathing tubes to send her to PICU in Winnipeg. So I went with them while they hooked her up to all the tubes and everything because I wanted to be by her side. I didn't want her to go through any of it alone. Her brain had swelled and her eyes weren't reacting. She was showing all the signs of being brain dead. They didn't think that she was actually going to live and make it back. So there was a lot of support. We had a lot of prayer around us. Like we had told people in the church and they had surrounded us. And pastors came to the PICU in Winnipeg and prayed for us -- for her. And she healed -- she came back. And she started waking up on Sunday a little bit. And since she was doing really well they sent her down to the children's ward and then we were there until Tuesday. And everything was going really well -- she was up again. She was talking a lot more than she used to. And they said that she was okay to go home. So it was quite terrifying.

NaD: That's part of a conversation between a woman in Brandon, Manitoba, and CBC reporter Riley Laychuck. Her 2-year-old daughter ended up in hospital after eating chocolate laced with cannabis.

[Music]

Siberia Polar Bears

Guest: Svetlana Skarbo

NaD: They're used to the odd polar bear. It comes with the remote territory. But residents in a small town perched on the Arctic Ocean in northern Siberia have never seen this many odd polar bears all at once. The small town of Belushya Guba, located on an Arctic archipelago is dealing with an invasion of more than 60 polar bears -- and they're wreaking havoc. Town officials have called in Russian wildlife officials for help. Svetlana Skarbo is the editor of the Siberian Times. We reached her in Novosibirsk, Siberia.

CO: Svetlana what kind of problems are these polar bears causing in the small town that has so many of them?

SVETLANA SKARBO: It's actually a huge and unprecedented number of the polar bears now. And the locals who live there for years say that they have never ever came across such a number of bears. And it's quite literally a siege because people can't go, can't do anything what they used to do. Like do a school run where their kids go to kindergarten or go shopping or take the rubbish out -- you can't do that. You have to have like a team of five to 10 people and ideally what they call a bear patrol which is a team of people -- a score of people -- with the light grenades and guns, even though they aren't allowed to shoot. So anything that you used to do like on your normal routine, you can't do anything at all there.

CO: This is in this town Belushya Guba, right?

SS: It is in the Belushya Guba yes. You have -- on the last count you have 52 polar bears. I mean it's a town of slightly over 2000 people of population, and it's got a big school -- kindergarten, even a hotel and some normal kind of facilities for the big Artic town.

CO: What are the theories as to why Belushya Guba has so many polar bears?

SS: Well as the scientists who have landed there today have been warning -- they came like a small team from Moscow and Arkhangelsk which is a city in northern Russia -- that this has been common from ages ago because people didn't take proper care of how they dumped their rubbish. And this was the issue number one. And number two is that this is the area of polar bears not humans. And this is where they kind of use the area to migrate. Normally they go hunting -- I mean they use the ice to go kind of out from the land, but this winter when they were supposed to leave in around November beginning of December 2018 -- they actually couldn't do that because there wasn't enough ice. They stayed. And once they stay for that number of them, they realized they have actually got like a free meals because of so much food waste.

CO: This archipelago where this is happening is Novaya Zemlya.

SS: Exactly, it is where Soviet Union used to have those huge nuclear tests.

CO: And that's why there are people living out there -- they remained after the Soviet nuclear tests that were happening on those grounds.

SS: It is the military area, yes. And again that's one of the issues is that actually the Russian military defense basically even though they were warned about the issue and knew about the issue -- because you had to actually have scientists, not consulting them remotely but actually being there, checking those bears checking the numbers, saying actually we've got to do something now. But they were not allowed to come because the paperwork and the bureaucracy of getting into the restricted area is so complex that actually they never came. They're there now. But the number of bears now is quiet over what they have expected to see. So they have to kind of do the firefighting now.

CO: But if they knew for a long time that this was going to become a problem -- that these people had been living there, that this was polar bear territory in the Arctic, that the rubbish was piling up all this food waste. What has made this such an urgent crisis right away? Why suddenly are there so many bears?

SS: Because of the ice not being strong enough, I presume. I mean why else? It wouldn't be enough ice for them to go and kind of continue their migration and do what they used to do. Because these males shouldn't be there I mean just roaming around the area. They should be out hunting as they used to do for years. But it didn't happen this year because of the sea ice not being strong enough.

CO: They can't survive on eating food waste, right? I mean we know it's happening to bears elsewhere that are not being able to get at their prey which is seals and sea animals and get that high protein and the fat that they need. So what state are these bears in? What are they saying about they are like?

SS: The team of experts they came just today so they're going to be kind of looking at the bears properly tomorrow and kind of give their first estimate of what they think of how the bears are. But the look from the pictures and videos that we saved, they look actually pretty good. I mean they look quite healthy from going through those food waste. But in terms of the shape they're in, they seem to be pretty well-fed. But definitely that is not going to be a long-term solution. And they'll have to do something. And I mean they'll have to do something like the idea is that they might be sedated and then taken somewhere -- miles away from Belushya Guba. Just moving those bears as the scientists say is definitely going to be a temporary solution because having that many of them -- shooting them all of them with sleeping pills and then flying them miles away from the area, they actually can't guarantee that this is going to sort the situation. They don't know. At least not yet.

CO: And where will they fly the bears to?

SS: We were only given the number of hours basically not the miles because they said look if we leave the bears within the 50-mile perimeter from the area it's not going to change anything because they'll come back. To take them away some ways is going to be like two-three hours flights to the other part of the island.

CO: I'm looking at a map of this archipelago. There seems to be a big national park at the northern part -- they might take them there?

SS: We don't know yet. I mean that's what we should be hearing this week. Maybe they'll just do it with this small group of bears -- if there is like a small group of the most aggressive bears which is the one which brings the biggest problems so they'll try to move just that group away first and then watch and see.

CO: Well maybe they should round up all the people and move them.

SS: Well that's an interesting question -- it doesn't seem to be possible.

CO: All right. Being facetious. Svetlana it was good to talk to you. Thank you.

SS: Thank you so much for having me.

NaD: Svetlana Skarbo is the editor of the Siberian Times. We reached her in Novosibirsk, Siberia. For pictures of this polar bear invasion, you can go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

GPS Inventor

Guest: Hugo Fruehauf

NaD: The "global positioning system" better known as the GPS started as a U.S. military project 40 years ago. And as you know if someone with a soothing voice is constantly telling you "please turn around as soon as possible" it can and has become an essential tool for a lot of people. Helps you find your way to camp sites. Keep ships on course. Lets you track exactly how long until your pizza arrives. Hugo Fruehauf is one of the people who helped create this ground-breaking mapping technology. Yesterday, he and three colleagues were awarded the Queen Elizabeth Prize for Engineering. It's a global prize worth 1 million pounds. We reached Hugo Fruehauf in London, England.

CO: Mr. Fruehauf first of all big congratulations to you.

HUGO FRUEHAUF: Thank you.

CO: What was it like to be recognized for something that you actually worked on decades ago?

HF: You know it's a wonderful world because you can receive an award for something that's 40 years old.

CO: But I mean it's not something that happened that you invented 40 years ago, that was useful 40 years ago. It has become exponentially useful. It's essential in people's lives now. How do you feel about the success you've had with that?

HF: Well it's a fascinating story to me. The system tested in 1978 before satellites and military signal worked extremely well -- exceeded expectations. So did the open signal that we planned to use in later life for the world to listen to. It was so accurate that the U.S. government actually purposely degraded how accurate that commercial signal was. And we were afraid that commercial signals could be used for harm. So President Clinton signed a directive to take off the degradation, and while you were sleeping it went from about 150 metre accuracy that open signal to about you know ten feet or so or less -- a couple of metre or less. And so from then on we were talking about enormous success.

CO: How does it work?

HF: Okay. How it works essentially is that right now there are 32 satellites up, and it sends a signal out just like if you turn on your FM radio station it sends a signal out that you listen to -- you don't contact the satellite like we do with two way phones. And when we're listening essentially what we're doing is we're taking a measurement of how long it took from the 12 hour orbit of the satellite for the signal to reach your GPS receiver. So you change your 20 dollar clock and your automotive navigation system or the two dollar clock in your cell phone and I give you a million dollar clock from space.

CO: The original -- the prototype you built was worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Now it's a couple of bucks in your cell phone. So the original purpose was military, right?

HF: Yes. It all started actually in the mid-60s because after the Second World War the U.S. government knew that in the future we're going to face tactical warfare, and carpet bombing isn't going to solve that problem. We wanted to have something in the military which you can basically eliminate collateral damage. That's how it all started. But along with that we did have an open signal that is available that we would then later on, as it turned out, gave it to the world.

CO: Do you have any ambivalent feelings about how the technology is used? First of all from a military point of view. All kinds of militias now use GPS for their purposes. And it's used for all kinds of commercial purposes.

HF: Quite frankly as I see it, all great things, whether it is the Internet, start out innocently and can be used for bad things. And the more mature it gets, the more often there are possible new applications for bad things. So if we were to be afraid, whether it's GPS or the Internet or anything else to light up a system so to speak because it can end up being used for their own purposes I don't think we'd ever accomplish anything.

CO: Is there any kind of technology, any use of the GPS, that gives you any moments of regret that you actually develop?

HF: Speaking for myself and not my three other colleagues that won this award, no. As a matter of fact the reason I mentioned the cell phone industry a while ago is because as you said our GPS recivers were a backpack. And then the cell phone industry broke loose, and what was a backpack 40-years-ago ends up being a little chip that's in my watch. So that's a wonderful way that technology combined to make GPS what it is today.

CO: And of course we know that it's vital to agriculture now. It's really important to that industry. We know it's been used for rescuing people. We know that it has all kinds of essential purposes in medicine and everything else. But it's also a key tool for Facebook and to geo-locate us someplace for them to sell that information. Did you anticipate that use of your technology?

HF: I think that the software folks that make the Internet and Facebook you know have a lot of pressure about a lot of things today -- but there is a way of saying no don't allow. And so you won't be tracked. So I think that kind of thing needs to be solved by the users.

CO: The inventor of technology is not responsible for how it gets used?

HF: Well sure under certain circumstances it should be. But how would we do this? How will we turn out [inaudible] a signal for the world, and the hundreds of good things nor do we sacrifice the good things for the bad. I don't know. It's a decision that's tough I guess. And certainly I think it needs to be done by everyone.

CO: There's one criticism of the prize that there were -- well even the judges said there were so many people involved specially one woman Gladys West who had developed the algorithms used by the satellites to map the shape of the world -- that some people feel she should have shared the stage with you. What do you think?

HF: Yes I understand that. I had a team of 54 people and they should -- you know it's just one of these things the leaders, the people that came up with the ideas, end up being select. I'm happy to be involved. But as usual there are probably a thousand people that probably should get some kind of accolades.

CO: The photograph of the four of you winning the award looks like a pretty happy reunion, was it?

HF: Not a reunion actually. We worked together. I see Bradford Parkinson at least twice a year. And Dick Schwartz -- we work together on projects. So we have been a team to some extent for all this time.

CO: Well congratulations to all of you.

HF: Well thank you.

CO: And thank you for speaking with us.

NaD: Hugo Fruehauf is one of the creators of GPS technology. He's also one of the four people awarded this year's Queen Elizabeth Prize for Engineering. We reached him in London, England.

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February 13, 2019 Episode Transcript

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