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The AIH Transcript for February 12, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

NANA ABA DUNCAN: Good evening, I'm Nana aba Duncan, sitting in for Jeff Douglas. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

NaD: Tonight:

CO: You could hear a kingpin drop. After a trial that laid his legacy of brutality bare, Mexican drug lord Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman is found guilty in a New York court.

NaD: Did she stand down after standing up? Jody Wilson-Raybould resigns from cabinet — after allegations she was demoted for not yielding to pressure from the Prime Minister's Office.

CO: Needle and dread. In the midst of a measles outbreak, residents of Washington state scramble to get their shots — and our guest is disappointed it took an emergency to get them to roll up their sleeves.

NaD: Hiding in plain citation. Two female scientists dig into the archives to find women in genetics whose contributions were not properly acknowledged — and those hidden figures weren't hard to spot.

CO: Locker room talk. All lawyers at Ontario's highest court have to wear robes, but men get more than 5 times as many lockers as women — our guest says it's time to change how she gets to change.

NaD: And...the fecal position. The person whose memory stick was found in a leopard seal's frozen poop has come forward, and her story is...exactly as weird as you'd expect a story about a memory stick in frozen seal poop to be.

NaD: "As It Happens", the Tuesday edition. Radio that tells tales out of stool.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: El Chapo verdict, lawyer locker rooms,

El Chapo verdict

Guest: Amanda Ottaway

NaD: The evidence was damning, and horrifying. The trial was dramatic -- and sometimes melodramatic. And today, a jury found Joaquin Guzman — better known as "El Chapo" — guilty, in a New York City courthouse. But for one U.S. attorney prosecuting the case, the verdict is about much more than one man.

SOUNDCLIP

RICHARD DONOGHUE: His conviction is a victory for the American people, who suffered so long and so much while Guzman made billions pouring poison over our southern border. This conviction is a victory for the Mexican people, who've lost more than 100,000 lives in drug-related violence. This conviction is a victory for every family who's lost a loved one to the black hole of addiction. There are those who say that the war on drugs is not worth fighting. Those people are wrong. Every seizure, every arrest, and every conviction contributes to a noble effort to save American lives.

NaD: That was U.S. Attorney Richard Donoghue speaking outside the Brooklyn courthouse today. Amanda Ottaway is a reporter for Courthouse News. We reached her in New York.

CO: Amanda, we just heard the attorney Richard Donoghue describing this as a victory for the American people, for the Mexican people, for families of addicts. What do you make of those statements?

AMANDA OTTAWAY: You know I'm not surprised by them. They are grand sweeping statements befitting the office of U.S. Attorney General for the Eastern District of New York. This is a really proud day for them. However, I think that the case has been really focused on you know I interviewed somebody who said this to me like making us all focus on the downfall of a really shiny object. And the downfall of the shiny object does not necessarily correlate to fewer drugs being trafficked across the border to fewer deaths.

CO: Now this El Chapo, or Mr. Guzman, the jury found him guilty on all counts — on ten counts. And it's seems that he is likely to spend the rest of his life in jail, right?

AO: Yes, it's a little complicated. But count one is a continuing criminal enterprise conviction. And when they convicted him on that charge, they had to answer these three questions on the verdict sheet. And if they answered yes to all of them, that charge then carries a mandatory life sentence. So they did answer yes.

CO: Pretty heavy charges, eh? Pretty heavy convictions. And people testified that there were murders, there were assassinations, executions, so none of these is for having killed anyone.

AO: No, it was not a murder trial. It was a drug trafficking trial all along. And the judge actually made that very clear in a conference before the trial, where you know that the prosecution was apparently trying to introduce something like 38 murders into evidence. And the judge was very firm, and he was like look, you're going to have to pick your best one and like take a shot with that murder charge because this is a drug trafficking trial. This is not a murder trial.

CO: How did Mr. Guzman take the news in court when it was announced that he had been found guilty of all charges?

AO: You know, I didn't think his demeanor changed very much from how he's been through the whole trial, which is just kind of staring ahead you know alert. He's with it. He's listening. But his facial expression doesn't change much. You know he's got this kind of default facial expression that's wide-eyed, and his corners of his mouth kind of turn upward. And that was the expression that I saw.

CO: I’m also wondering about his wife Emma Coronel, who stood by him in court every day. There is a description of how he and Emma put their hands on their hearts when the jury left the room after the after all and the evidence was presented. That they wore matching burgundy blazers at one point in solidarity. How did she react?

AO: I didn't see any tears flowing. I did see tears in her eyes at one point. And yet, when that when the judge finished reading the verdict, Chapo kind of leaned back in his chair, he craned back until he could get a good view of her, and then he waved, and he gave her a thumbs up. She gave him the thumbs up back, crossed her hands over her heart, and blew him a kiss.

CO: The jury deliberated for six days. And it was interesting that the judge he lauded this meticulous attention to detail. He described as being remarkable on the approach the jury took toward the deliberations. He said he was very proud to be an American by virtue of how they dealt with it. What do you know about how they came to this conclusion? Did you learn anything?

AO: Oh man, what I wouldn't have given to be a fly on that wall — all of us. You know, it's difficult to speculate about what's going on in a jury room. We do we do know a little from the notes that they sent. They asked for testimony from several cooperating witnesses, from several law enforcement witnesses. They also asked for clarification on a few questions. They wanted to know if a drug war counts as a drug trafficking crime. But yeah, it's always hard to say. I mean just an hour before the verdict today, you know I was kind of preparing myself for it to go into next week. It was very hard to know where their heads were.

CO: This wouldn't have happened, these convictions wouldn't have been possible without the cooperators — the witnesses — 14 of them who were part of this world — this cartel — and what happens to those witnesses who presented extraordinary evidence of what went on in the cartel, including describing grisly murders and all kinds of corruption? I mean do they just walk away?

AO: That's a good question. It's individual to each of them. Most of them were brought in from prison to testify against Guzman. And all of them who were brought in from prison said that they did it in the hope of securing a shorter sentence. Now, some of them the U.S. government has helped to bring their family to the U.S. to keep them safe, some of them are in the Witness Protection Program. And yeah, I mean some of them remain to be sentenced, and I expect that they will see a shortened sentence times as a result of their testimony.

CO: And just going back to what Richard Donoghue, the U.S. attorney, said about the successful war it's part of it's the success of a war on drugs it was possible. But this trial did paint an extraordinary and detailed picture of how a cartel operates, doesn't it? I mean just to see how politicians army commanders, police, prosecutors all these people on the take all work together in order to help the cartel advance its interests. Is that helpful? Is this is this document — this huge canvas — is this going to be helpful in the war on drugs?

AO: I do think that we've learned a lot from this trial that we didn't know before. We've learned a lot about the Sinaloa cartel and its inner workings. And one of the most important things I think that I learned was that drug cartels are incredibly, incredibly flexible organizations. I mean they are you know they're businesses, and they're very creative. And every time there's a roadblock for them, they figure out a different way to get their business done. You know first these planes, and then the planes got caught. And they switched to boats, and then the boats got caught. And they started using tunnels. And if the drug war continues, it will have to be a war of innovation on the side of law enforcement.

CO: What an extraordinary trial. Amanda, I appreciate you reporting for us. Thank you.

NaD: Amanda Ottaway is a reporter for Courthouse News. We reached her in New York.

[Music: World music]

Scheer on Wilson-Raybould

NaD: Jody Wilson-Raybould's departure from cabinet has clearly put Justin Trudeau's nose out of joint. And it definitely has the Prime Minister's opposition rivals smelling blood. The former Attorney General tendered her resignation in a letter this morning. She referred to allegations that the Prime Minister's Office had pressured her to meddle in the criminal prosecution of the Quebec construction and engineering giant SNC Lavalin. Ms. Wilson-Raybould said she's getting advice on what she's free to say. Earlier tonight, at a news conference in Winnipeg, the Prime Minister said he was "surprised and disappointed" by her decision to resign — because it was "not consistent" with conversations they'd recently had. Andrew Scheer, meanwhile, is more disappointed than surprised. Here's the Conservative leader speaking this afternoon in Fredericton.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW SCHEER: It's clear that there is more to this story than what Justin Trudeau is asking Canadians to believe. For days now, he is asking us to take his word that nothing has happened. And now we clearly see by these actions that there is a different version of events. He should have been forthcoming immediately. He should have waived his attorney whatever privilege he thinks he has. The only conclusion we can draw from this is that there is more to the story that someone is not being fully transparent and fully truthful. Well, of course, at this point because we have the prime minister refusing to answer these types of questions we can only speculate. But something is clear. You don't have 50 meetings with government officials — 14 of which touched on the subjects of justice and law enforcement — without obviously something being asked of the government. I mean and then to have these reports that pressure or influence was exerted on the former Attorney General — something that is completely inappropriate — all with the goal of achieving a better deal or a special deal for a company that's facing criminal investigations. That is outrageous! And that is why this needs to be dealt with immediately and in full view of the public. You know what? We're not looking at this in terms of partisanship. This is this is a matter of a fundamental principle of our democracy and our justice system. All Canadians of all political stripes need to be concerned about this. And Justin Trudeau has really let Canadians down. He's let members of his own party down. He's led his own caucus down. He's let down Canadians with his refusal to treat this issue seriously and with full transparency immediately.

NaD: That was Conservative leader Andrew Scheer in Fredericton this afternoon. And coming up, we'll hear Rosemary Barton's analysis of the Prime Minister's remarks tonight.

[Music: Ambient]

Lawyer locker rooms

Guest: Breanna Needham

NaD: Osgoode Hall is an historic landmark building in downtown Toronto. It's where lawyers argue their court of appeal cases. But before they do that, they must change into their robes. There are two robing rooms in Osgoode Hall. One for men. The other for, quote, "lady barristers". The women's room has twelve lockers. The men's has about seventy. Breanna Needham wants that to change. She's a Toronto lawyer, and she's launched a petition. We reached Ms. Needham in Toronto.

CO: Breanna, can you just describe the robing room for women at Osgoode Hall?

BREANNA NEEDHAM: Certainly, it's quite small, and it does not fit all of the women who have to come and argue and appear at Osgoode Hall.

CO: So now how many women — how many lady lawyers — would you pack into this room before they were up against the walls?

BN: It wouldn't take very many. If I'm being honest with you, I believe one of the other lawyers who posted a photo had maybe six or seven women standing side by side, and the people on the ends could touch the wall. It's quite small.

CO: Now the other feature is the decoration. Do you want to describe the decor of this locker room?

BN: The most accurate description in locker room would be dated and utilitarian, I suppose for lack of a better word. It's got a few kind of benches like you would see in a typical high school gym locker room or swimming pool and some couches that are older and not dissimilar to what you might see at maybe your grandma's house.

CO: This is the most generous description because we're just trying to figure out what the couches are covered with, and the word chintz comes to mind. I think that's what it's called?

BN: I believe that's how another lawyer described it, yes.

CO: So it's feminine, right?

BN: It's my understanding in any event that it was decorated in the style that they thought women would like when the room was first opened.

CO: Is it true that the sign on the door is “lady barristers”?

BN: That is correct, the sign on the door does read “lady barristers”. Perhaps commemorative of our history, but not something that should be an act of service.

CO: Ok, now let's talk about the men's locker room. Is there a “gentlemen's barristers” sign on the door?

BN: You know, there is not. There is not a “gentleman barristers” sign on the door.

CO: Why am I not surprised? At what's inside the locker, if you've ever been in there?

BN: Well, I have never personally been inside the locker room. However, it's been reported in industry publications as being opulent and spacious — not unlike a high end country club.

CO: And is there chintz furniture inside there, or is it more manly?

BN: It's my understanding that it's quite classy, and it has a very I believe the word that was used to describe it was an old money feel.

CO: ok, now in fairness Osgoode Hall, it's an old place, right? So how long have these two locker room situations been in existence? I'm sure is a time when there wasn't any lady barrister's room at all?

BN: Absolutely correct. It's my understanding that in the 1960s, a lawyer by the name of Judy Le Marche who was starting to appear when there were more and more women in law at the time, she didn't have anywhere to change. And her way of objecting at the time was to walk into the men's robbing room and start changing in there. And that's when I think it occurred to them that they needed a women's robbing room as well. And that's when the robbing room and asking Hall came about now so.

CO: Ok, there was finally some kind of place for the women. But now things have changed quite a bit as far as the proportions of men and women lawyers, right?

BN: That's correct. My understanding is that since the early 1990s, even women have been graduating from law schools at a rate far greater than men. So even though we're only represented about half of the profession when it comes to private practice, we're graduating more women from law schools than men. So our representation has grown enormously over the last few decades. So it's not the same proportionality or representation that it was you know even 10 or 20 or 30 years ago.

CO: Now why did you decide to launch this petition?

BN: I really truly believe that when you see something you should say something, and if you don't like something you should do something about it. This was covered last year by an industry publication. There was some discourse and discussion and debate around it. And then it kind of just fell away. And it's something that I've heard discussed privately behind closed doors by women in equity seeking groups since I've started in the practice. And so it just it seemed like it just needed to change.

CO: You're now in a movement, and what are you moving toward? What are you hoping to achieve with your petition?

BN: Hopefully, what we can achieve is a communal space that can be accessed by all lawyers. And not just men and women, but LGBTQ-plus lawyers, non-binary individuals, lawyers of all faiths and backgrounds where they can come in and feel comfortable engaging in the mentoring, and networking, and the discussions, and the really important interactions that happen informally in these spaces. And right now the men have that exclusively, and the women have a very small robbing room where frankly not a lot of that happens because you have to get in and out. And that's a huge part of the profession. And while this isn't intentionally exclusionary, it perpetuates an outcome that results in exclusion.

CO: Right. And so how are the men responding to your petition?

BN: You know, I'm amazed by the allies that are out there. I think that overall the response has been very, very positive. With a lot of men noting that they didn't even realize there was this big discrepancy. And now that it's been drawn to their attention, they'd like to see change too. I'm incredibly encouraged by the response.

CO: Who gets to keep the chintz?

BN: Unclear. Maybe we could auction it off for a scholarship for historical commemorative?

CO: I think a museum is a likely place to put this chintz.

BN: I don't disagree with you on that one.

CO: And so any progress? Do you think any knowledge of when this might happen if you do get to have this does change in the robbing rooms?

BN: That's unclear at this point in time. I am encouraged by the fact that the law society has responded and said they acknowledge it's an issue and they're looking into it. But we don't have any details as you know what might be done if an expert might be engaged to deal with the space because it is a historical landmark building. What the timeline would be and those kind of details. That would be great to see that is what comes next.

CO: All right. We'll keep in touch. Breanna, thank you.

BN: Thank you.

NaD: Breanna Needham is a Toronto lawyer. She's launched a petition asking Osgoode Hall to replace its "Lady Barristers" Robing Room with a unisex space. She was in Toronto. If you want to see a photo of the women's robing room, you check out our Twitter feed, @CBCAsItHappens.

[Music: Ambient]

Newfoundland ferries closed

NaD: For four days, ferries across the Cabot Strait have been canceled due to extremely high winds, which means that truck drivers trying to get from Nova Scotia to Newfoundland have been stuck. Dave Thomson is one of them. This morning, he spoke with Krissy Holmes, the host of "The St. John's Morning Show", about how he's passed the time.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVE THOMSON: I got my own TV and Netflix and you know some good food, and you just relax. But I mean there’s a a lot of guys here too you get to travel with, so you know we go for coffee or whatever and have a chat. And you go visit somebody in our truck or whatever. You just hang around.

MAGGIE GILLIS: Right. what's your setup in the truck for cooking and things like that?

DT: Yeah, like I have my own microwave and a toaster and kettle and you know every like that and a fridge. So I mean you've got everything pretty much you need to get by for a few days. And actually Saturday I got up, and I was running out of supplies so I ran to Walmart, which was a four kilometre walk from here. So I walked up there and back in the cold, and got what I needed for the weekend. And so I'm good to go.

MG: I guess, yeah. Because you can't take your vehicle out of line, so you have to walk everywhere.

th — tomorrow. Stay safe, and enjoy the snow.

NaD: That was Nanaimo district superintendent Scott Saywell announcing in style that schools were closed on Vancouver Island today.

[Music: Ambient]

Seal poop follow up

[sc]

CO: And are you trying to find out who's photos they are?

KH: Yeah, definitely. I mean it’d be great just for a novelty I think to find out if somebody is missing their USB stick, and find out how it got to be on the beach where the leopard seal was. I think that would be a neat story.

NaD: That's Carol talking with marine mammal biologist Krista Hupman last week. To clarify: the photos Ms. Hupman was talking about were found on a USB stick on a beach in New Zealand, which was found inside the frozen feces of a leopard seal. When the stick turned up in the scat, questions emerged. Mainly: whose was it, and how did it get in the seal? Well, in murder mysteries, the butler did it. In seal-poop mysteries, it's...the only volunteer who monitors seals in that area. In December 2017, that volunteer — Amanda Nally — saw a leopard seal that looked unwell. She called the seal hotline. Ms. Nally told the vet who arrived that the seal had defecated nearby. And she recommended the vet take the scat for analysis to the research institute where Krista Hupman works — without knowing that her memory stick was inside the scat. Amanda Nally told the Guardian, quote: "The USB stick was embedded deep in the poo. (They're)...convinced that a bird ate my USB stick, and the leopard seal then ate the bird, because he had a lot of feathers in the scat. And then, bizarrely, I come along and say 'oh there's a sample we should send to Niwa'." Unquote. When she saw the photos from the stick on the news, she recognized them, and came forward, which provides neat resolution to a story with all the twists and turns of a seal's digestive system — and proves that the truth — like a memory stick swallowed by a bird that's swallowed by a leopard seal — will always come out. However messy it might be.

[Music: Ambient]

Part two: Measles outbreak, Jody Wilson-Raybould resigns

Measles outbreak

Guest: Alan Melnick

ND: Health clinics in Washington State are scrambling to keep up with a spike of sudden vaccinations. In the wake of a measles outbreak, many residents who aren't up-to-date with their shots are trying to play catch-up. With 54 confirmed cases of measles in Washington, it's the worst outbreak in the state in more than two decades. Fifty-three of those cases are in Clark County, on the border with Oregon. That's where Dr. Alan Melnick is the director of public health. We reached him in Vancouver, Washington.

CO: Dr. Melnick, all these people and their families rushing to get vaccinated. Is it too little too late?

ALAN MELNICK: Well, I mean it's too little too late for the 53 confirmed cases we've had in Clark County. And you know we had one child who was hospitalized already. So it's too little too late for those, but I'm hoping that with the larger numbers of people getting vaccinated — and the numbers have gone up substantially — that this will help get our immunisation rates high enough to help us avoid another outbreak.

CO: How much higher are the vaccination rates right now than they were a year ago?

AM: It's going to take some time to go through that the data. I know that in the last few weeks of January and I believe early February as well more numbers are being vaccinated. But we have a long way to go.

CO: There's one report that it has jumped up by about 450 per cent over last year.

AM: The numbers of people who are getting the vaccine compared to the same week the prior year. But I'm looking at not just the numbers of people getting vaccine, but the total number of people vaccinated. So that's I'm saying. You know, you need about 95 per cent for herd immunity for measles. And given that we're at 78 per cent county wide in terms of vaccination rates for school-age children, you know we need a lot more people getting vaccinated. It's good news that more people are getting vaccinated. We just have a ways to go.

CO: Your state — Washington State — has one of the lowest levels of immunization in the United States. Why is that?

AM: Couple of reasons. One is the immunization requirements for schools K through 12 are a bit more lax here than they are in other states. There are three different ways to get exempted from the school immunization requirement. One is a medical exemption, which is very rare. Another way is to get a religious exemption. Those are really rare also because I can't think of any religions off the top of my head that say thou shall not vaccinate. So the vast majority of exemptions are what we call philosophic or personal reasons — parents just choosing not to vaccinate their children. The other reason besides the relative ease in getting that personal exemption is all the misinformation about the disease as well as the vaccine that's going around on social media. So you combined the misinformation that's going on with the ease in which it's able to exempt your child from getting the immunizations and we end up with what we're seeing here in Washington State and in Clark County.

CO: And so why do you think this measles outbreak happened in your state? What was behind it?

AM: One is that measles is one of the most contagious diseases known to mankind. If somebody with measles is around people who are unvaccinated and are susceptible, one case will infect 90 per cent of people around them. And you can be in a room two hours after somebody with measles has left. And you're susceptible — unvaccinated — you can get the disease. Number two is we still have measles in the world. It should have been eradicated from the world a while ago. Unfortunately, it hasn’t. And we not only have it in in the world, we now have it in the United States. We had considered measles eradicated in the United States in 2000. And now we're seeing a comeback. And then you have areas like Clark County where you have unvaccinated populations. So all you need is a case a car ride away to come into the community with measles. And given how contagious it is, it can spread like wildfire.

CO: You've talked about exposure sites in your county, and that there are places they say well health facilities, elementary schools, a Walmart, a Trader Joe's, a sports stadium all have been exposures sights. So how long will those places be some location where you could possibly contract measles?

AM: So the incubation period for measles if you've been exposed you're at risk for getting symptoms and becoming contagious seven to 21 days after exposure. So we're continuously updating our exposure sites. But as long as we have new exposure sites, and we have some concerns for people who are unimmunized and might have been exposed up to 21 days after exposure. We had an exposure site at a clinic I believe on February 5^th. What we do when we get an exposure site in a clinic is we work with the clinic to get the roster of anybody who might have been in the clinic at the time that the case was and up to two hours after the case left. Also, ask them if they brought anybody with them that's not on the roster. Call all those people and find out whether any of them were unvaccinated and susceptible. And then we will put those folks under what we call active monitoring, where we will contact them every day and make sure that you know they stay at home during the period where they might develop symptoms, so they don't expose other people, and actually four recent cases that's worked. We've had some recent cases where folks did stay at home, and you know these children got measles, and they didn't go out and infect anybody else.

CO: It's really sad when you read so many messages or tweets or whatever Facebook people whose immune systems can't resist diseases like this, who have kids who are so susceptible, who are pregnant, and they're just pleading with those who the anti-vaxers or people who are opposed to vaccines to get them for their sake. So why do you think there's that resistance? Why do you think you can't get through to people about the importance of these vaccines?

AM: I think some of the information that's going on social media is nonsense. The information is horrible and dangerous, but it's really sophisticated information. You know you go to the one of the sites, and it looks like a scientific site. So I mean my message to parents who are hearing this stuff on social media is measles is not a benign disease. The vaccine is very safe, effective, and inexpensive. And the importance of vaccinating your children is not only to protect them but to protect everybody else in the community who might be at risk for the disease and can't be immunized — including people with immunosuppression or infants.

CO: Dr. Menick, we'll leave it there. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AM: Thank you.

NaD: Dr. Alan Melnick is the public health director for Clark County. We reached him in Vancouver, Washington.

[Music: Ambient]

Wilson-Raybould resigns

Guest: Rosemary Barton

NaD: Justin Trudeau has some explaining to do tonight. This morning, the Prime Minister's former Attorney General resigned — amidst allegations that Mr. Trudeau's office had pressured her to allow SNC Lavalin to avoid prosecution for bribery and fraud. In her resignation letter, Jody Wilson-Raybould didn't say why she was quitting Mr. Trudeau's cabinet. But she did say that she was seeking advice on what she could and couldn't say about those allegations.

CO: This evening, the Prime Minister spoke to reporters in Winnipeg. Here's some of what he had to say.

[sc]

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Our government did its job properly, and according to all the rules. And if someone felt that we did not — someone within the government, a minister, or particularly the Attorney General. Then it was her responsibility to come directly to me and highlight that. And that is not an issue that involves attorney-client privilege. She, of course, should be coming to me and expressing that. And she did not.

REPORTER: [Speaking: French]

TRANSLATION: Mr. Trudeau, a CBC in French and English, please, if possible. So in the end, Ms. Wilson-Raybould’s decision is that not evidence that she's been pressured on this issue?

JT: I will highlight once again that I am surprised and disappointed, and to be honest, don't entirely understand why Jody Wilson-Raybould made the decision she did. Because if anyone — particularly the Attorney General — felt that we were not doing our job fully responsibly and according to all the rules as a government. It was her responsibility to come forward to me this past fall, and highlight that directly to me. She did not. Nobody did. And that's why I continue to be puzzled — and, obviously, disappointed by her decision to step down from Cabinet.

CO: Rosemary Barton is the Ottawa-based co-host of CBC TV's "The National". We reached her in Ottawa. Rosemary, what was the prime minister setting out to do with this press conference?

ROSEMARY BARTON: Well, I mean this is his first chance obviously to speak to Canadians, to anyone, to take some questions since the resignation of Jody Wilson-Raybould. I will point out that she resigned to his face last night in Vancouver. It was a one-on-one meeting we're told. It was very brief and terse is how it was described to us by people inside the Prime Minister's Office. That's not too hard to believe. I think he was trying to do something very specific though in all those answers, and that was to make the point that Jody Wilson-Reybould could have spoken up about this at any point from when it started I guess to reach a fever pitch back in the fall, when we know that SNC Lavalin was pushing hard to try and get one of these plea deals, to even when she was demoted to Minister of Veterans Affairs. And he says that that point never came. So I guess he's trying to get people to be a little bit skeptical about what she's doing now and what the motivation is.

CO: He says he's frankly surprised, he's disappointed, he's puzzled. I don't entirely understand why she resigned. If she thought we weren't following the rules, then it was her job to tell us. It's her fault if this has come to this place. I mean so has he thrown her under the bus?

RB: Well, I don't think he's given her a ride home on the bus, that’s for sure. I mean he also said that she had not been consistent. That there were times during other cabinet meetings for instance where she was happy to be vocal about places where she was not comfortable with the government's position. And that this was the one time where he didn't hear from her. I think if he had thrown her under the bus as we say politically, she's not going to stay there for long. The only thing I think the prime minister's comments have done tonight is probably to poke Jody Wilson-Raybould a little more. We know that she has left cabinet, but she has not left her job as MP. She is still oddly enough inside the Liberal caucus for now. And she has hired this former Supreme Court justice as a lawyer. So I don't think we should expect, I don't think the prime minister expects that this is the last we hear from her.

CO: Now you just mentioned this former Supreme Court Justice Thomas Cromwell. No minor talent there, and he is advising her on what she can say. I know this is pure tealeaves, pure crystal ball, but any idea what she might tell us?

RB: You know, I think we need to better understand this issue of pressure around the prosecution of SNC Lavalin. We know — it's on the public record — that Lavalin was pushing very hard. They lobbied some 80 times in Ottawa to try and get one of these new deferred prosecution agreements. They lobbied in order to get those things created. We know that the Quebec premier has said very publicly he thought the company should get one to try and save the company, which is headquartered in Quebec. So that part of the story is all indisputable. What we don't know is what the conversation around that would have been at the Cabinet table. Where let's be clear, vigorous debate, difficult conversations, all of that is perfectly normal, and I would even say necessary. When or if it crossed the line into something that is not acceptable is the part we don't know. And we don't know that part at least in part because Jody Wilson-Raybould isn't speaking publicly, and hasn't put her name to anything behind that version of events.

CO: Is it possible that we're reading too much into this? I mean we began this week with a story by Bob Fife. He had two anonymous sources who said that something might have happened. There might have been pressure, but it didn't actually yield anything. There’s still a criminal prosecution of SNC Lavalin. So this has blown up in the face of the government without really much being there.

RB: I mean I think if it's blown up it's because of the government's handling of it. I think there are ways to get these kinds of things under control. And I think the reason that they haven't been able to is if it was just the allegation around SNC Lavalin, maybe there would be a way to explain that. I don't know? Maybe there would be? I'm not sure? But the problem was is that they had this ticking time bomb that was Jody Wilson-Raybould, who clearly wasn't going to sit back and let just anything be said about her. She was the part that they couldn't control. And as the days went on, and as she continued to hear things that obviously she disagreed with, I mean that's obviously what happened in the past 24 hours. She disagreed with the prime minister's version of events. And that's the part they couldn't control. And that's why it sort of blew up. So I don't think we should underplay it at all because there's so many questions that we don't know the answers to. And I think it's clear that it was enough of something that a cabinet minister felt that she had to quit to do it, even if she didn't do it when it was happening as the prime minister said.

CO: All we have from her at this point is her resignation letter, where she signs as “Puglaas, which is an Indigenous name her grandmother gave her, which apparently means a woman born to noble people. She writes in this letter that she joined politics to do politics differently. That was the slogan of the Liberal Party. That was the sunny ways. This is what they campaigned on. How much damage has this done to the Liberal brand?

RB: You know, they are aware it's not a good day. And it hasn't been a good day for about five days now. And again, part of that is there I think failure to sort of get a handle on the story, and deal with it the right way out of the gate. The other part of it though is what Jody Wilson-Raybould bold came to represent for the government. Not only a strong female cabinet minister at the table for a government that a self-described feminist governments, but also the first Indigenous justice minister, which at the time was a very big deal. The prime minister also said tonight that we should not interpret his commitment to reconciliation through one person. You know I agree 100 per cent. It would be wrong to do that. But the fact is that the symbolism that she embodied is now gone because she's gone, and she's obviously quite angry. And so that can only be damaging. How damaging short term and long term, I'm not sure? But it is it is certainly not a good thing for them today.

CO: We'll leave it there. Rosemary, thank you.

RB: Thanks, Carol.

NaD: Rosemary Barton is the Ottawa-based co-host of CBC TV's "The National". We reached her in Ottawa. And tonight on "The National", Rosemary will gather the "At Issue" panel to talk about this.

[Music: Hip-hop]

Maduro on BBC

Nicolas Maduro is not backing down.

NaD: Nicolas Maduro is not backing down. Today, Venezuela's embattled president gave an interview to the BBC. He blamed the United States for the crisis in his country — accusing Washington of attempting a take-over. He labelled U.S. President Donald Trump and his administration a, quote, "gang of extremists." The United States is one of many countries, including Canada, that have recognized opposition leader Juan Guido as interim president. The opposition has been attempting to get humanitarian aid into the country, but it has been blocked at the border. President Maduro told the BBC he will not let the food and other supplies in. Here is part of what he had to say, through a translator.

SOUNDCLIP

NICOLAS MADURO: [Speaking: Spanish]

TRANSLATION: First of all, it's a charade that the United States government has set up with the compliance of the Colombian government in order to humiliate the Venezuelans. Venezuela is a country that has the capacity to satisfy all the needs of its people. Venezuela is a country that has problems like any other country. And we have been fighting successfully to reduce poverty and misery. Venezuela is a country that has dignity. And the United States intends to create a humanitarian crisis in order to justify a military intervention. And this is part of that charade. That's why with all dignity we tell them we don't want their crumbs, their toxic food, their leftovers. We tell them no, Venezuela has dignity. Venezuela produces and works, and our people do not beg from anyone.

NaD: Vneezuelan President Nicolas Maduro, speaking earlier today to the BBC.

[Music: Ambient]

CBD coffee

NaD: In 2009, the Wisconsin Tourism Federation announced it was changing its name to the Tourism Federation of Wisconsin. A spokesperson said, "We didn't want it to detract from our mission." By "it", she meant the abbreviation that hadn't been a problem for the first 30 years: WTF. Now, the Maine company Coffee By Design has no plans to change its name. But since cannabis was legalized in the state in 2016, it's had a branding issue. People call the company "CBD" — and its logo features those three letters, too. But CBD is also the abbreviation for cannabidiol — an active ingredient in cannabis. It won't get you high, but people use it to treat anxiety, sleep problems, and pain. In Maine, you can get even get it in your coffee. You see the problem. Competitors of Coffee By Design are offering "CBD coffee". Which, the Coffee By Design people say, is a violation of their trademark. And creates confusion about the product they're offering. The issue became less urgent this month, when Maine legislators ordered people to stop selling edible CBD products — the cannabis ones — because the additive hasn't been federally approved. But the CBD people — the coffee ones — are still looking into their options. Because once, their initials just suggested grounds to be thrown out, or composted. Nowadays, they suggest grounds for legal action.

[Music: Electronica]

Part three: Women in genetics, tiger found, New Zealand maps

Women in genetics

Guest: Emilia Huerta-Sanchez

NaD: Since the dawn of science, women's work in the field has been undervalued. That kind of oversight was put in the spotlight with the 2016 biopic "Hidden Figures." If you haven't seen it, it tells the story of three black women who are mathematicians who worked at NASA during the space race in the 1960s — and the vital role they played. Watching that movie gave genetic researchers Rori Rohlfs and Emilia Huerta-Sanchez an idea. We reached Brown University professor Emilia Huerta-Sanchez in Berkeley, California.

CO: Professor Huerta-Sanchez, what did you and your friend, Rori Rohlfs, what did you say to each other after you saw the movie “Hidden Figures”?

EMILIA HUERTA-SANCHEZ: I don't recall exactly what we said, but I remember we were very surprised that we didn't know the story of those women. And so to us that meant that there were probably other women that we didn't know about.

CO: And so what did you think might be out there — the unsung heroes of science? What did you think might be there?

EHS: Well, we didn't know. But we thought that there were some papers that we read before, and we've noticed that in the acknowledgements, several women have been acknowledged for help with programming and numerical analysis of research articles in our fields. And so we thought well, why don’t we do a study where we look back as papers, different research articles, and look in the acknowledgements and see how often women get acknowledged?

CO: There's one particular woman… well are a number, but one I want to ask you about that you found it was often cited in the sort of the footnotes of science, Jennifer Smith. And she was thanked in the paper you read for ably programming and executing all the computations. What did you make of that?

EHS: Yeah, so when I first saw that, I was surprised because nowadays she would have been made an author. But for some reason she was not an author on that paper. She was just in the acknowledgements. So to me that was weird that she was only acknowledged.

CO: And what was the science she had been working on?

EHS: Yeah, so she was running programs in the computers, she was developing some algorithms, she was doing statistical inference in the computer. She was supporting a lot of the computational work that was done for that study.

CO: So this wasn't a small job when you're doing the computations for a study of this nature?

EHS: Yeah, I think those contributions are things that you didn't do today. Graduate students. It's not just typing without thinking. There's intellectual work involved. And so that's one of the reasons why it was weird to me that she was not made an author.

CO: And she's not the only one. You you and your friend, Professor Rohlfs, you recruited undergrads to come through about 20 years of Journal of the one journal, Theoretical Population Biology. And this is the 1970s and 80s, and you were looking for women's names. What did they find?

EHS: Yes. So we did a study from looking at the journal from 1970 to 1990, and what we find is that in the 1970s, a big proportion of the acknowledged programmers were women. And that changed in the 80s, and that correlates with programming going from being a pink colour job — meaning done by women — and then in the 80’s becoming a male-dominated field. And so what that means is that in the 70s, even though it looks like the field of population genetics was created by a small group of men, there were, in fact, a lot of women behind the scenes helping with the research and supporting the research through computational work.

CO: But how can you prove that? I mean you can make the assumption because you know what these women were doing in some regards. But how do you know they weren't just doing clerical tasks?

EHS: We talked to a woman, Margaret Wu, and we talked to some of the people that hired these women. And they described the work they did to us. And we asked them how would this be different than what a grad student does today? And they agreed that the work they were doing was very similar to what grad students do today.

CO: Huh, and so this is from Margaret Wu; you tracked her down?

EHS: Yes. And she knows what grad students do because she eventually became a professor at a university. So she's quite familiar with the work of graduate students.

CO: And Margaret Wu, I understand she helped develop something that you still use in your own genetic work — something called a Watterson estimator. When you spoke with Margaret Wu, was she at all resentful? Did she feel that she had been left out and rendered a footnote in scientific history?

EHS: No, not at all. She was very happy to know that she made some contributions to a paper that was highly cited. And both Rori and I are definitely more upset because we think she should have been made an author. Yeah, and also because it would have been nice as grad students to know that there were women behind the scenes helping with the work.

CO: We also just recently spoke with a Canadian scientist who won a Nobel prize, her name is Donna Strickland, and she wasn't even a full professor until after she won the award. So you think you might still be going on that women are still not taken as seriously as the men in science?

EHS: I think it's still going on, yeah. I mean I've been in academia for more than ten years now, and we've been trying to increase the number of women in science and engineering and math and computer science. But it's going really slow. By taking credit from these women, we kind of pushed the field behind a little bit. And I think by omitting them from history it creates a false narrative that women haven't been doing science. But, in fact, they have.

CO: Well, I'm very happy for your study. It's really interesting, Professor Huerta-Sanchez. And thanks for speaking with us.

EHS: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.

CO: Take care. Bye-bye.

NaD: Emilia Huerta-Sanchez is a population geneticist at Brown University. We reached her today in Berkeley, California. You can find more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Tiger found

Guest: Lara Cottingham

NaD:Texas is home to lots of wild and deadly animals you could stumble on accidentally. I don't have time to read the whole list. But tigers aren't on there. So officials in Houston were surprised yesterday after someone did stumble accidentally on a tiger — living in a small cage in an empty house. Lara Cottingham is a spokesperson for BARC — the Houston animal shelter that rescued the tiger.

CO: Laura, how is this tiger doing?

LARA COTTINGHAM: As far as we can tell, and given everything that it's been through, the tiger is doing very well. We are thrilled to announce that it was transferred earlier this morning to a wildlife sanctuary here in Texas. So it's probably still on the road right now, but it's on its way to a facility that can give it the medical care and feeding and expertise and most importantly space that a tiger needs.

CO: And speaking of space, it was found in a very tightly confined space, wasn't it? I mean it was an empty house in Houston. What do you know about its conditions — how it was living or being held in that house?

LA: The tiger was found in a home in Southeast Texas, inside what I believe is a garage — a small room within the home — and then inside a cage. And it had room to walk around in the cage, but just barely that.

CO: How did you get involved with it? How did you find out about this tiger?

LA: So I work for the city of Houston. And the way the city of Houston got involved was anonymous call and from a concerned resident to 311. And that call was transferred to BARC. They sent officers out to investigate. And they said that they definitely could tell there was some type of animal in this home. So they contacted the police department. They worked to get a warrant to go into the building. And they found a tiger.

CO: Just before I ask you more about that, we understand from the police that the anonymous call — this woman who called 311 — she had gone into the house thinking it was empty to smoke some dope — some cannabis — and well, she came across a tiger.

LA: So this is one of those funny things about that story. And the anonymous caller we spoke to didn't say anything about that. But the police does have an ongoing investigation right now to determine who owns the tiger? How did it end up in this neighbourhood? And so I'm sure they've had more conversations with other people. We didn't get quite the exciting story that has been reported to other parts.

CO: And was there any evidence that anyone lived in the house?

LA: It's hard to tell what at all was going on in this house. Starting with it had a tiger, it has graffiti on the outside, it's not in great shape. It looks abandoned or vacant, except obviously people have been in it. All of that is kind of being investigated right now.

CO: And the tiger in this cage was there evidence that anyone was feeding or caring for the animal?

LA: It does look like someone was feeding the animal. It looks healthy. Obviously, we didn't do a full medical examination, and I am not a vet. But it was incredibly friendly, moving around, didn't look injured, wasn't growling or making any kind of noise. Certainly wasn't afraid of people. And there was food in the cage, and there were bowls. So someone has been taking care of it. Some of our questions were well how long has it been in this building in this neighbourhood? Because that's something that's fairly hard to hide. All of that is something we're all trying to get to the bottom of.

CO: The poor thing though. And have you ever seen anything like this before? Has there been a rescue of any kind of a large animal like this in your experience?

LA: So, unfortunately, this has happened before in Houston with tigers. Some people think that it is cool maybe to have an exotic pet. And not only as that against city ordinance here in Houston, it's just a really bad idea all around. I'm sure that tiger was absolutely adorable when it was a kitten. But what happens is they grow up, and they become really large, really hungry, really expensive, and potentially really dangerous. And they need to be if al least not in the wild, then in a habitat where they have the resources and the support that they need.

CO: Was it difficult to get the tiger into a proper facility? The transport has already happened, right? So how was that handled?

LA: The transfer has already happened, and we're thrilled it happened as quickly as possible because we spent a good time yesterday trying to find a facility that would take the tiger. We don't have the facility necessary or the veterinary staff to care for a tiger. But it worked out perfectly that and we were able to find a spot for it and that it's already on its way.

CO: You’re saying it, but male or female, do you know?

LA: So I'm saying it because we have been going back and forth on what it is. And I did not get up close and personal with the tiger, and quite honestly, no one really did because we don't have professional tiger handlers. And it's just best to leave that to the experts.

CO: It would be very delicate handling if you were to try and find out the gender, I think?

LA: Exactly. And really we've been going back and forth because someone would say oh, it's a she, and then, oh, it's a he. So you can call it Daniel or Danielle Tiger.

CO: All right. So Danielle or Daniel has a new home. Lara, it's good to talk to you. Thanks.

LA: Thank you.

NaD: Lara Cottingham is a spokesperson for the animal shelter BARC. We reached her in Houston, Texas.

[Music: Indie rock]

FOA: bobblehead museum

NaD: It may be the largest collection of its kind. There are more than 6,500 celebrities, athletes, politicians, animals, mascots, cartoon characters and so much more on display. And now it has opened — finally. Phil Sklar is the co-founder of the National Bobblehead Hall of Fame and Museum in Milwaukee. Three-and-a-half-years ago, Carol spoke with him about his plan to open the new museum. Here is part of their conversation from June, 2015

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Phil, how many bobbleheads do you have?

PHIL SKLAR: Yeah, well individual bobbleheads we have about 4,000 unique bobbleheads. But by the time we open, we're anticipating having nearly 10,000 bobbleheads, which would be definitely the world's largest collection unless somebody is hording a large collection that we're unaware of.

CO: Ten thousand bobbleheads — that's your goal?

PS: Yeah, that's sort of the goal. You know we want to have a really wide assortment of bobbleheads from you know all periods and all genres. You know if it bobbles, we want to have some representation in the Hall of Fame and Museum.

CO: Well now, you don't have this museum yet, right?

PS: Correct. We've announced the Hall of Fame and Museum in mid-November, and we've been in the planning and development stages ever since. But we did recently announced a preview show, which is going to be at a local art gallery January through April.

CO: And for the time being, you and your roommate, where are you storing all your bobbleheads?

PS: in our condo that we share, we have probably close to 500. Now we've taken a lot out — maybe another 500 in the garage. And we had them piling up in the kitchen, and that's really when we started to brainstorm ideas for what are going to do with all these bobbleheads? And that's how this idea was developed.

CO: Do I understand correctly that you and your roommate have now quit your jobs, and are full-time bobblehead museum collectors?

PS: Yep, that is 100 per cent correct. We quit our jobs, and have focused all our efforts on the bobbleheads. And we also create bobbleheads — custom bobbleheads — whether it's somebody who wants one bobblehead of themselves or a loved one or a team or individual or organization that wants you know a hundred or a thousand.

CO: And when do you open do you think your bobblehead museum?

PS: So January through April is when we're going to have the preview exhibit, and then shortly after that is when we intend to open the physical location.

NaD: That was Phil Sklar, co-founder of National Bobblehead Hall of Fame and Museum in Milwaukee. After almost four years of preparation and planning, he and his partner Brad Novak have opened the museum. They have also reached their goal of collecting 10 thousand bobbleheads. Now they are gunning for the Guinness Book of World Records. The current record is held by Phil Darling, from Richmond, Ontario — who has 2 thousand, 396 bobbleheads.

[Music: Showtune]

FOA: New Canadian American

NaD: Nancy Inferrera wasn't sure this day would come. Today, the American senior citizen became a permanent resident of Canada. Ms. Inferrera is the sole caretaker of her longtime friend and housemate Mildred Sanford, who has Alzheimer's. The two were forced to leave their trailer home in Guysborough, Nova Scotia back in 2012, when Ms. Inferrera was deported. In November of that year, Carol spoke with Ms. Inferrera, who was in Maine at the time, for an update on her status -- and why she refused to be separated from her friend.

SOUNDCLIP

NANCY INFERRERA: I heard that it's a reprieve. He got me a reprieve, and I can go back home to Canada tomorrow. And he's going to come down and pick us up. So we're heading home. The both of us are heading back home.

CO: And what exactly have you got? Do you know what kind of a permit?

NI: A temporary residence permit for three years. Then I'm gonna have to make out papers after that.

CO: Where did you spend last night?

NI: in the motor inn here.

CO: And you were with Mildred?

NI: Yes.

CO: And she has Alzheimer's, does she not?

NI: Yes, ma'am.

CO: What was last night like for her?

NI: She was going home. She kept crying and crying. She says I'm going home. I said you can’t go home. She thought she could go home you know last night. She kept saying I'm going home. I want to go home. I want to go home, you know? Then just laid on top the bed, and I said well try to put your pajamas on for tonight, and we'll see what's going on tomorrow. She just couldn't comprehend what happened, you know? And she cried and cried an awful lot. I felt bad for her that you had to go all through this. But we've been friends for over 30 years. I'm not about to leave her now when she's getting like this. And you know that's not me anyhow to lose somebody like that.

CO: So what happened? You came to live in Canada with Mildred then?

NI: Somebody had made papers for me to come up as a visitor. And that's what I did because I didn't know nothing about rules, and I came up as a visitor. Then I kept reapplying. Then they said it's all done. So I made out the papers for humane compassion, and I didn't make out that paper right. I just did it by myself. I never mentioned that I was Mildred’s caretaker. And when the first border patrol man came down, he says you must known? I said no, I wouldn't leave the state, buy a trailer up here for all that money, thinking that I was not going to be able to live here the rest of my life. That's what we decided to do. Millie wanted to come back to her hometown. She asked me if I'd go, and I said yes. I've been coming up to Canada since 1981 of and on, and I loved it up here. So that's the move we made, you know?

NaD: That was Nancy Inferrera speaking with Carol in November of 2012. Today, Ms. Inferrera was granted permanent residency status in Canada.

[Music: Sombre]

New Zealand maps

Guest: Ryhs Darby

NaD: It's like showing up for a family gathering, and finding no one's expecting you, and your name's not on the guest list. Only it's a gathering of all the countries in the world. And you're a country. And you're not there. There's only one country this happens to consistently: New Zealand. Most recently, last week — when an unhappy Ikea shopper posted a photo of a map from the Swedish retailer. Next to Australia, in the South Pacfic there's...nothing. Just ocean. Ikea has apologized and said it will phase out all of the maps that erased New Zealand. But the timing is awkard — because Ikea just announced it's expanding to open its first store in the country. As I said, it's not the first time this has happened, and some people are sick of it. Including New Zealand actor and comedian Rhys Darby. He's been on the case for a while now. He even pledged to the Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern — whom he calls "Cindy" in this promotional tourism video — that he'd get to the bottom of why New Zealand is being left off maps.

SOUNDCLIP

RYHS DARBY: The next great conspiracy — New Zealand is disappearing off world maps.

JACINDA ARDERN: Hello, Ryhs.

RD: Cindy! I mean your majesty, I’ll keep this brief. New Zealand is being left off world maps all over the world.

JA: I’m sure there is a reasonable explanation.

RD: I don't think so. I've been searching the internets for the last 30 seconds, and it's everywhere. This is a major conspiracy. I'm going to get behind it. By that I don't mean to support it, I'm going to actually you know sort of get in behind it. Not in a rude way. I'll go around the side of it, but I'm going to search it out. I'm going to study it. Leave it with me, Milady.

NaD: Today, we reached Rhys Darby in Los Angeles.

CO: Rhys, you present a number of conspiracy theories as to why New Zealand may have been left off so many maps, but what have you finally concluded?

RD: Final conclusions. I mean is there such a thing as finality? This will probably go on forever. But I think at this stage, the closest edge I have is that we have a new Atlantis, and we're trying to be sunk by the powers that be that don't want us to be revealed.

CO: Uh huh. And who are the powers that be?

RD: What I'll do is reveal the powers that aren't: Australia, the French, and this is the latest, the Swedish. Try and not include us, and dare I say it? Look, at least America and the UK, who do talk about us, they usually link us with Australia, but at least they give us a mention. It’s when we're completely negated, disappeared as you can see from these maps that I think the conspiracy really comes alive. And it makes you wonder. I mean I hear I hear other places like Tasmania say oh, we’re left off the map. Okay, well good on you. Who cares? But people care when New Zealand is left off because we are an actual country, and a big one.

CO: All right, just go back to all the countries who make up “they”, who are part of the conspiracy. You just mentioned Sweden, and the reason why you mentioned Sweden is because the most recent map to have completely eliminated New Zealand is, of course, Ikea.

RD: That's right, Ikea, one of the top four furniture making kit set companies in the world. I've been to Ikea more than once. The place itself is a conspiracy because you get in there and you can't get out. It's a labyrinth of lies!

CO: But they have this new map, and the map you noticed didn't have New Zealand on it. And yet, they are about to open a great big store in New Zealand, right?

RD: I know, the irony! But I believe they've apologized.

CO: Does that mean they're going to issue the map and include New Zealand on it?

RD: Well, I put this out to Ikea, if they really want to make it up to us, put out a map that only has New Zealand, or a massive New Zealand, and misses out Sweden, or at least misses out or minimizes the rest of the other countries around us. And I think then we'll feel a little bit better about ourselves. See half the problem is we've always felt insecure, much like Canada for some reason. I don't know what it is, especially for you guys? I mean you guys are gigantic. But it's that kind of missing out element — the little the little sibling, maybe the middle child you know who's kind of like what happened to little Timmy? I don’t know? He sort of drifted away. Didn’t you make some achievements? Didn't he climb Mount Everest? Oh yeah, yeah, but who cares? Who cares?! Come on! We invented the jackboat. Anyway, I could go on!

CO: Here's another thing, we did an interview with the people of Shetland Islands, and they said that they their problem is that they get put into a box, and they don't want to be in a box anymore. So would you be happy to be in a box? I mean if you just got on the map by virtue of being moved around in a box of some kind?

RD: So you put New Zealand in a box? The one country that you could never put it in a box, I mean that's just crazy! Sort of just floating off to the side…

CO: Well, Just moved closer in to where you want to be, which is at the center of the universe.

RD: Of a hovering box over the sort of Mediterranean area. Okay, well that's a possibility. Or the other thing I would say is if you’ve got to miss us off the maps because you haven't got room or whatever or you can't be bothered that's fine, but just put a note next to Australia saying “for greater countries, see overleaf”, and then people will flip it over, and there we are along with the Shetland Islands and a little bit of Tasmania that I like.

CO: You also have one idea is that it's possibly because New Zealand looks like what you call a half-eaten lamb chop, and no one thinks is the country. It’s just a bit of fluff they have to just brush off. Maybe that's the problem.

RD: Yeah, from a distance on a on a big map, it looks like someone's made a bit of a mistake on the side there, or someone's been eating while they're producing it and they've dropped a bit of something on the map. And someone's gone oh, what’s that? Is that meant to be a country? And the guy's gone I don’t know? Just turn it into something.

CO: Here's the question, Ryhs, is that I mean this has been going on for a long time, but nobody noticed that New Zealand wasn't on the map. So what do you make of that?

RD: We as a nation don't get up on a soapbox and show off. It's kind of a thing that we have like we never really stood up on our own two feet and said this is New Zealand. Please look at us as a sole entity. Not until sort of the 80s that people actually went oh, there is a country down there. New Zealand is real. It just seems so fantastical that a place could be so mystical and wasn't part of Australia, but it was this imaginary, beautiful concept that was near Antarctica, which is what we are, which makes us you know almost unbelievable.

CO: So you have successfully campaigned to get New Zealand at least on the map of Ikea, right?

RD: Yes, that's been the big dream.

CO: And so now that Ikea is about to colonize your country as it's colonized the rest of the world, how are people responding to your successful campaign to get Ikea to recognize you as a country and put you on the map?

RD: Well I think it's just really we wouldn't feel — and this is what Kiwis are like — we wouldn't really go to the big new Ikea that's been built in our country if we didn't a, get an apology or b, you know get on the map there. So I think we're there. I think once the big, huge conglomerate opens up, when the prime minister gets announced to come through, she'll say all right. Show us the map.

CO: Okay, well we will be watching for that grand opening. But from one forgotten country to another, thank you.

RD: Thank you so much.

CO: Bye.

RD: Bye.

NAD: Rhys Darby is an actor and comedian from New Zealand. We reached him in Los Angeles. And we've posted more on that story on the "As It Happens" website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

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February 12, 2019 episode transcript

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