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The Current Transcript for February 13, 2019

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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VOICE: I think people feel betrayed by the Liberal government and somebody whose acted with grace and integrity, felt that there was really nowhere else to go, but to resign.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Indigenous leaders and supporters are speaking out in disbelief, in anger and in support of Jody Wilson-Raybould. Her sudden resignation from cabinet yesterday means there is no longer Indigenous representation at the Cabinet table. Her choice to remove herself from that inner circle, raises questions about what's in her future. Her first statement that she's retained a former Supreme Court justice for legal advice and what she can say, suggests she may have more to say publicly. In a moment we're asking about the ripple effects of that resignation in Ottawa and beyond. Also today, you may have heard about the teenager in Ohio who defied his mom and insisted on getting a vaccination.

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VOICE: My mom had always known I disagreed with her and once I actually had finally went out and got vaccinations, it caused some stress in the house where she looked at it as me getting vaccines for a gesture of rebellion.

AMT: Now a measles outbreak in Washington state, there are reports of unvaccinated highschool students asking for shots and legislators there are poised to bring in laws making it tougher to evade vaccinations. In Canada, three quarters of a million youngsters have no immunity against measles, diptheria or whooping cough, but not everyone is convinced tougher laws would make a difference. We're on that story in an hour. And it was a year ago tomorrow that 17 people lost their lives in a high school shooting in Parkland, Florida.

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VOICE: I lost two people in my class and six were hit. I was on the wrong side of the class. No student should have to cover themselves with a deceased classmate to survive, but I was that student.

AMT: For many survivors, the trauma has turned to activism. In half an hour, author David Cullen on the students who tried to galvanize a nation against gun violence, in a way no others have. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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Speak, or stay silent? How Jody Wilson-Raybould's choice could impact the Liberals

Guests: Chris Hall, Errol Mendes

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VOICE: I was surprised and disappointed by Jody’s decision. This is not something that was consistent with the conversations we had. This government always takes its responsibilities seriously. We make sure we do our job we do it properly. If anyone felt that that was not the case particularly the attorney general. It was their responsibility her responsibility to let me know about that. Of course she said nothing of that to me last fall.

AMT: As Canadians across the country were hit by massively disruptive snowfalls yesterday, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau tried to dig himself out of a snowballing crisis of his own, after Jody Wilson-Raybould resigned from his cabinet. The former justice minister who was shuffled to Veterans Affairs last month, did not specify why she quit, but her bombshell decision followed days of intense scrutiny over the SNC-Lavalin affair and it started last week with a news story that said the prime minister's office pressured her to help the Quebec-based engineering firm avoid criminal prosecution on charges of bribery and fraud in relation to contracts in Libya. The federal ethics commissioner is now looking into the allegations. Today, the scandal goes before the Liberal-dominated House of Commons justice committee and the Conservatives are crying foul. Here's what opposition leader, Andrew Scheer, had to say.

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VOICE: Justin Trudeau's ethical lapses and his handling of this latest scandal, has thrown his government into chaos. If it wasn't obvious before, Ms. Wilson-Raybould's resignation makes it crystal clear that Justin Trudeau is trying to hide the truth with regards to the SNC-Lavalin affair.

AMT: Well needless to say, political Ottawa is reeling. To bring us up to speed, I'm joined by Chris Hall, CBC's national affairs editor and host of CBC Radio's The House. Hi Chris.

CHRIS HALL: Good Morning Anna Maria.

AMT: That clip of the prime minister on the responsibility to speak up sounds as if he's doubling down.

CH: Oh, there's no question about it. Remember just 24 hours earlier, he had expressed his full confidence in Jody Wilson-Raybould, said the fact she was still in cabinet spoke for itself and then yesterday after she resigned, he clearly wasn't going to let that speak for itself. He said she had an obligation to step forward and if she hadn't and he has continued to say that this government of his did not do anything that was outside the law with respect to the SNC-Lavalin case. So yes he's been, a change of tone first of all, but far more importantly, a real change in message. Basically, as some people looked at it, putting the blame squarely on Jody Wilson-Raybould and away from his own office.

AMT: Now we know the Conservative leader Andrew Scheer is not pleased. He says the government's in chaos. He's called the allegations at the center of this controversy "unprecedented." You've covered Parliament Hill for a long time. What do you think of that assessment?

CH: Well it's certainly chaos inside, the way the government has communicated this this issue. I'm not sure it's unprecedented in the extent to which Andrew Scheer puts it, after all an election year and the rhetoric is going to be a little bit ramped up because of that. But it does suggest that there is a problem, first of all, communications which I mentioned, but more importantly, this is SNC-Lavalin, a huge construction and engineering firm, based in Quebec, was lobbying for what is basically a plea bargain arrangement with the federal prosecutor's office and the question of whether somebody tried to influence both the Director of Public Prosecutions and Jody Wilson-Raybould to intervene, raises the question about whether they went across the line of interfering in a prosecution or if they were simply as the prime minister tries to suggest, having a conversation about a politically sensitive file before a decision was made. Interesting enough Anna Maria, in Vancouver on Monday, the prime minister made it clear that he had spoken with Jody Wilson-Raybould back in the fall, he says he told her and he reminded her and she confirmed this, that it was her decision and hers alone to decide whether this prosecution goes ahead. That wasn't repeated. A lot of the questions we have now is why did he feel it necessary to have that conversation to reconfirm the conversation that they had in the fall, if there was any doubt in his mind about what had transpired then.

AMT: And why did she resign so shortly after he came forward with that statement?

CH: That is the unanswered question here. He professed surprise and disappointment that she had indicated to him when she was moved out of justice back in January of any of these concerns and certainly hadn't raised them in the fall. But within 24 hours of him making that statement, she had resigned. So the real question that most of us here in Ottawa are trying to figure out is what transpired in that conversation that we don't know. Did she object to the manner in which he was characterizing what they had discussed.

AMT: Now Chris, we know that she's retained a former Supreme Court justice to advise her on what she can say. That suggests she might want to say something. If she decides to break her silence, what impact could that have on on the Liberal government?

CH: Well it will be huge. Either she is going to support what the prime minister has said and has only refused to do so so far because of her concerns around solicitor-client privilege. As the attorney general she can't talk about things that she discussed with the prime minister. Or, conversely, she's going to say she was pressured. She's going to identify those people who did the pressuring. I can tell you that most people in Ottawa tonight or today and last night, believe that because she's got Thomas Cromwell as her lawyer, that she does intend to speak. She wants to speak. The only question I suppose now is when that decision will come and what impact it will have. Clearly, if it is that she was pressured, then everything the prime minister and David Lametti, her successor as justice minister has said, will be put under a different light.

AMT: Is it clear she'll continue to sit as a Liberal?

CH: So far nobody seems to be suggesting should sit as an independent but again this is a break week for the House of Commons. We'll find out at the first caucus meeting on Wednesday next week whether she's staying or not.

AMT: And of course she was Canada's first Indigenous justice minister. Her departure from cabinet is being felt acutely by some Indigenous leaders. I want you to hear a clip we have. This this Grand Chief Stewart Phillip, president of the Union of BC Indian Chiefs.

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VOICE: The indigenous people of this country hold Jody Wilson-Raybould in very high esteem. She's one of our most highly respected leaders in this country. She has conducted herself with dignity, with decorum. She's a workhorse, incredibly conscientious and the hallmark of her word is integrity. Quite frankly, we're really pissed at this disgusting treatment of one of our most highly respected women leaders.

AMT: Chris Hall, how is this going to affect the Liberals in an election year?

CH: This is the big question, isn't it Anna Maria? Clearly female voters were courted by the Liberals in 2015 and they still need their support, basically saying a leading female voice around the cabinet table, I know she resigned, but there was whisper campaigns about her being difficult to work with, that she wasn't a team player. That's one concern the Liberals have to have, the others of course, the Indigenous community. We heard Stewart Phillip, he's not the only leader in the Indigenous community suggesting that she was treated unfairly. That this kind of whisper campaign is unfair to her. People were also talking last night Anna Maria about how the Prime Minister referred to her as Jody, throughout much of his conversation in Vancouver, at the announcement yesterday when he was responding to her resignation, something that he wasn't doing to other cabinet ministers, male colleagues. So for the prime minister who came to power talking about greater openness and transparency, equality rights and the importance of reconciling with Indigenous communities. This is going to have some impact, no matter how unfolds over the next days and weeks ahead.

AMT: And I'm wondering what other cabinet ministers might be thinking, how that's going to play around the table. I noticed Jane Philpott was tweeting a picture of herself and Ms. Wilson-Raybould yesterday, a very nice picture you know talking about what she learned from her.

CH: Well she taught me so much of Indigenous history rights and justice, Jane Philpott. I tried to reach out to her last night, didn't get to her, but did talk to some folks around Liberal circles about what that might mean. Jane Philpott, very prominent as a female cabinet minister herself, had worked in the Indigenous services and health files before becoming Treasury Board President. I'm told she was just expressing her support because Jody Wilson-Raybould so far has been unable to tell her side of the story. Just expressing support for the contribution she made as a cabinet minister. We saw Maryam Monsef tweeting. John McCallum just recently fired as the ambassador to China also tweeting about the accomplishments that Jane Philpott and Jody Wilson-Raybould achieved when they were in health and justice with legalizing cannabis, the right to an assisted death, these kinds of files. So we don't know how much of an impact this is going to have around the table. We don't know if it's going to divide cabinet ministers, but we do know is some took the perhaps almost an extraordinary step of tweeting out their support for her last night.

AMT: Now the House Justice Committee holds a meeting today to discuss the SNC-Lavalin affair. Of What's expected to happen there, Chris?

CH: It will be interesting to watch. The chair Anthony Housefather is a Liberal. He said he is open to having the committee study this issue, study what SNC-Lavalin was doing because we know of course they were lobbying extensively last fall after being turned down for this what's called a deferred prosecution agreement. What's not clear is whether the Liberals on the committee, who are apparently not being whipped in any way, are being told how to vote, what they will agree to. Will they agreed to for example the witness list the Conservatives that put forward, which includes Jody Wilson-Raybould includes her successor David Lametti, it includes Gerry Butts and Katie Telford, the two most senior people in the prime minister's office. And now Nathan Cullen of the NDP told me last night, he wants to put the prime minister on this witness list, which is a big step particularly in an election year. Will the Liberals go along with that? I'm guessing no, but at this stage, Anthony Housefather, who is the chair is suggesting they are open to pursuing it. The only question I guess is who they will call and what kind of questions they will allow of the various people who are on this list.

AMT: And they're ready with the questions. The Conservatives have got their big guns ready to go.

CH: Oh yeah absolutely. They've been advertising to their base saying here are the Liberal members of the Justice Committee called and now tell them this should go forward. It does raise lots of questions about the way the prime minister's office operated and because SNC-Lavalin was lobbying so extensively and because of its past close ties to the Liberal Party, particularly in Quebec, this is fraught with all kinds of political danger, if I can put it that way. Certainly, lots of people outside of Quebec would be wondering why there would be any kind of special treatment for SNC-Lavalin. Inside Quebec, where thousands of people are employed by the company, it's a huge issue and editorial support up until today has been quite strong in saying that SNC-Lavalin is an important company, an important player. There are people who work there, who collect pensions, who supply the company, who are going to be unfairly damaged if this company is brought to trial.

AMT: Lots to watch. Chris Hall, thanks for your insights into all of this.

CH: Okay thanks Anna Maria.

AMT: Chris Hall, CBC's national affairs editor, also the host of CBC Radio's The House. He is in Ottawa. Well despite Prime Minister Trudeau's assurances yesterday that his government's Indigenous reconciliation efforts go beyond any one person, Jody Wilson-Raybould's resignation is also being seen as a blow to that major party platform. Here again is the president of the Union of BC Indian Chiefs, Grand Chief, Stewart Phillip.

VOICE: It's a black eye for Canada in terms of its efforts to hold itself up as a champion of Indigenous peoples and Indigenous issues, Prime Minister Trudeau has proven himself to be no better than Stephen Harper and so you know I think the mask has been ripped off the phoniness of the prime minister and his theatrics and his lofty political rhetoric.

AMT: Well for a look at what the resignation of Jody Wilson-Raybould could mean for the Trudeau government, politically and legall, I'm joined by Errol Mendes. He's a professor of constitutional and international law at the University of Ottawa. He's also the president of the International Commission of Jurists Canada and he joins us from Ottawa. Hi.

ERROL MENDES: Hi Anna Maria.

AMT: What kind of a loss is Ms. Wilson-Raybould's resignation for the Canadian judicial system?

EM: Well like many Canadians and myself, I have a huge regard for her. She's done a great job in terms of very many critical issues, ranging from the assisted dying legislation to many of the criminal justice reforms that she did. So I think that she will be a loss. I had a high regard for her and I think her advice on Indigenous issues will also be a major loss if she cannot pursue that, but overall I think she will be a loss to the cabinet.

AMT: So as you watch this, given your expertise, what is the core issue of this story to you?

EM: Well to me it is a rule of law issue as to who exactly was involved in the decision to or not to prosecute SNC-Lavalin and here's where we have to get very, very specific. Under the present way in which decisions are made for prosecutorial discretion, it is up to the DPP, the Director of Public Prosecutions to make the first decision as to whether or not to go ahead with what is called DPA, a deferred prosecution agreement. Once that person made the decision, she then has to consult with a minister and if the ministers have other ideas about that decision, she has to issue a directive, which has to be in writing and be made public.

AMT: Let me just stop you right now because she did decide not to go aheah, OK, keep going.

EM: That's right. So if they make the decision based on principle decision making that they would not go ahead with that type of deferred prosecution agreement, their decision is sacrosanct now. Under the way in which we have inherited our decision making process in criminal justice matters, there is a right for the minister to consult with colleagues to receive advice, but there has to be no pressure. And this is where it is critical to get the right information as to what happened. Was there any form of pressure imposed on the minister which ultimately may have made her decide that her position was untenable and she had to resign. That's the crucial issue and I think there should be a focus by whoever is examining these issue, they should focus on that particular one. There is a huge distinction between advice, consult, rigorous debate and undue pressure.

AMT: And that's where we need to get the, to really get into the weeds to find which is which. But let me ask you something because we're hearing now you know we can't talk about this, this is before the courts. SNC-Lavalin was lobbying on deferred prosecution agreement according to reports. Can you lobby while you're before the courts?

EM: Yes you can, but you have to obviously observe basic understanding that you cannot go too far. I mean everyone has the right to lobby within the rules, but however, it cannot then extend to trying to get that undue pressure. This is where I go back to the critical issue, which has to be examined. Who was imposing, if there was undue pressure, who was imposing that on them?Was there involvement by a government official? If that is the case and they knew that that was not allowed under the process, then those individuals have to be obviously hauled before whatever ever needs to be discussed in terms of sanctioning them.

AMT: And so is there a chance that the Director of Public Prosecution says there won't be a deferred prosecution agreement and a criminal case will go forward, is there a chance that could change again?

EM: Well this is going to be interesting as to whether or not the new Minister of Justice, David Lametti, who also I think is a very principaled individual, will have to go through this process to see if there was any need to change that original decision. Obviously principal decisions were made by the DPP and the then minister Judy Wilson-Raybould and therefore they have to look at what that process was. And if they made their decisions based on a very principle basis, it'll be interesting to see whether or not the new minister can change it or have to keep it from that original decision.

AMT: You've written a piece in The Globe and Mail today saying that these deferred prosecution agreements should be available only to first time offenders.

EM: Well this was in the context, I was a member of the Transparency International legal committee, which examined the introduction of these DPAs years before tthey were actually introduced. I think our discussions started in 2015 and there was a lot of concern, myself included, that we should try and stop these used as a way of essentially incentivizing people to commit corruption. So TI Canada said yes we will support these introductions, however we have some major concerns, one being that they should primarily be given to companies who are not, who are first offenders and are not recidivists in terms of corruption and they should have demonstrated, even before any prosecution agreements wre given to them to show remorse, to engage in self-imposed compliance and enforcement and essentially to make sure that the corruption was only limited to a few rotten apples in the barrel and to make sure that it did not go all the way up to the top to make in effect to make the barrel rotten. So yes we had major concerns, but if the process would then take care of those concerns, I think based on the fact that these were introduced a much longer time frame with the U.S. and the U.K. that we waited to see if they would be introduced properly. And given the fact and frankly given the fact that we have those concerns, I would strongly have supported any decisions by the DPP and by the minister not to offer a DPA to SNC-Lavalin.

AMT: Okay well we'll have to see where this goes. Errol Mendes, thanks for your insights on this.

EM: You're very welcome.

AMT: Errol Mendes, professor of constitutional and international law at the University of Ottawa, also president of the International Commission of Jurists Canada. Let us know what you think as you watch this play out. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook. Go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. And stay with us, the news is next and then a year on from the Parkland school shooting in Florida, how the young survivors of that tragedy have helped change the conversation about guns in the U.S. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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Parkland shooting survivors delivered more 'powerful' message than any politician: author

Guests: Dave Cullen

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

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AMT: Still to come teenage rebellion with a twist as a measles outbreak seizes Washington State some children and parents who objected vaccinations are figuring out how to get them on their own. In half an hour I'll speak with a Washington state lawmaker who's trying to change the rules in that state so parents can no longer withhold vaccines because of personal beliefs. We'll get to that. But first, from Columbine to Parkland.

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AMT: Whenever there's been a school shooting over the last many years in the US, Dave Cullen has often been one of the first people to get a call from TV producers. His book Columbine was the definitive account of an attack that set the template for a grim series of future mass murders. It exploded many myths about the killers and their motives and in the years that followed, there have been many school shootings in the United States, not all have had the same level of media attention, at least not until Parkland.

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VOICE: What we really need is action cause we can say yes, we're going to do all these things. What we need more than that is action. Please this is the 18th one this year. That's unacceptable. We're children. You guys like are the adults. You need to take some action and play a role. Work together, come over your politics and get something done.

AMT: That is David Hogg speaking to CNN the day after a gunman killed 17 people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School. At the time he was just a student, a senior, someone who'd been caught up in a terrible event, who'd lost classmates and friends. Tomorrow, Valentine's Day marks the one year anniversary of that attack and in that time David Hogg, has become one of the most famous gun safety activists in the United States. It's something most wouldn't have predicted a year ago, but something about him and his message got Dave Cullen's attention and it made him think there might be something different about this group of survivors. What he learned is captured in his new book, it's called, Parkland: Birth of a Movement. Dave Cullen joins me from our studio in New York City. And a warning, there is some strong language, which some listeners may find offensive. Hi Dave.

DAVE CULLEN: Hi Anna Maria. Thanks for having me.

AMT: When you first saw David Hogg speaking, what jumped out at you?

DC: That was kind of amazing. That was a 8:22 am. I marked the time. I looked it up because like that's when America changed. And I just finished doing an interview on the same show, on CNN, and had been really depressed and bleak and kind of horrified at where we were and that this is happening again and kind of there was no out of this and you know America was stuck in this rat maze and couldn't get out. And literally the CNN headquarters they had monitors in the elevator and five minutes later, after being so bleak, I saw David in the elevator on the ride down giving that interview and I was so taken aback. I stayed on the elevator. It was about eight minutes. I just stood there and watched, sort of gaping and my first thought is this is not a day one survivor because I've been you know I've been watching these kids, I've been with them for 19 years and they don't go to this place of action. How did this kid have the clarity you know he's supposed to be like sobbing and crying and grieving and distraught and depressed you know, all these other kind of emotions. How did he you know jump ahead you know about eight phases right to action. And then I got home and there are like lots of these kids doing it and I was like, wow, something has changed.

AMT: I should point out you say like 19 years, so we're going on like what is it 20 years and 200 shootings since Columbine?

DC: Yes, yes. Two decades now, Columbine will be in April and until last year, nothing out of the American political system.

AMT: So Dave you get a call from Vanity Fair I guess to go down there. What are you thinking?

DC: Well my editor knew me and I had suffered two bouts of secondary PTSD, seven years apart on Columbine, pretty bad and I had strict rules that I'd worked out after the second time with my shrink and I was you know not allowed to go near one of these places. Right after I can go study them with academic groups later, which I do. But somebody called me and he said I know you're not allowed to go down there, but would you, maybe? And I was already writing a piece for Politico about how why is this time different and he said you know not to cover the grief and the horror, but to cover these kids and like there's something going on there. And I said wow you know my first urge was like I kind of want to and then my second urge is you know I might end up at a mental hospital as my shrink had warned me and kind of told me never to do something like that. So I slept on it and I decided OK and you know booked a plane ticket for the next day and got a hold of David Hogg that afternoon, but I went to and it was just for five weeks because I was also very late on a book on two gay soldiers and years late. So we agreed just to go to five weeks, not a day more until the March on Washington, just to see what these kids were up to.

AMT: So you tracked them for five weeks? You were there for five weeks with them.

DC: Well I wasn't there the whole time. I went there for about a week and then it was mostly by telephone and then about three weeks out, I went back for another week and you know writing in between and you know researching. And you know I followed them online as you know, as they live online now and on television.

AMT: So Dave, they're inundated. How did get their trust?

DC: Yeah. You know that was difficult at first, although, okay so hack journalism, which I just hate and I usually don't do. So when I first made this, did this this trip to Tallahassee, the state capital, just less than a week out, which was kind of extraordinary where they had a hundred of the kids up bus nine hours up the highway to the state capital in Tallahassee for such a long state. It's quite far away met with state legislators, met with the governor who was adamant. He had an 8 plus rating from the NRA. He was adamant opponent of them and got concessions from him, which was sort of shocking. The NRA disowned him for doing that, but they got action and I went on that trip with them. You know I went down there the day before to sort of go to their like prep meeting where you know Jaclyn Corin, kind of the hero of the book, who was organizing that event said oh no, you don't want to go to that. It's just boring stuff like you know parental forms and you know what to wear and sleeping bags and what bring and stuff like that. And I was like no that's exactly what I want.

AMT: You want to see them. Yeah.

DC: Yeah. I wanted to see how this happens. I don't want to be the guy who stands up you know we all see on TV like you know holding the microphone in front of the state capital doing the photo op of like, oh you're here meeting with the governor, what was that like? I wanted to know what it took to get there and are your moms freaking out and you know are they signing the permission slips? Are the moms coming to the meeting because they don't know if they want to send their kid who's kind of shell shocked, like what is all that like and you know what does it take to make this happen? So just you know showing up and during that pack then you know then the next day and the trip to Tallahassee, there were literally hundreds. And I'm thinking, God I hate this and like trying to get access and trying to you know do something that's different, but I kept telling myself OK I know how I'm going to get this story. I'm going to stay.

AMT: And everybody else leaves and you stay.

DC: Yeah, the pressured journalists, they're going to go, yeah.

AMT: So David I've got another clip for you here because they captured the public's attention with a series of events immediately after the attack and a lot of people will remember this speech by Emma Gonzalez.

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VOICE: They say a good guy with a gun stops a bad guy with a gun. We call BS. They say guns are just tools like knives and are dangerous as cars. We call BS. They say that no laws could have been able to prevent the hundreds of senseless tragedies that have occurred. We call BS. That us kids don't know what we'retalking about, that we're too young to understand how the government works. We call BS.

AMT: You know you made the point about the clarity with which David Hogg spoke, you saw that with a number of them, including the clip we just heard. What was your sense of where that clarity, that articulation comes from?

DC: Well first of all, I kind of choked up hearing that again. That was such an amazing day. I remember, I guess about noon or something I saw a clip of that and was just taken aback. I like was just amazed and I listened to it a couple times and I didn't realize how much they were galvanizing America, how quickly. I thought it was so powerful. Right around dinner time, everyone I knew was talking about it and they knew her name. That's the part that shocked me was like have you heard this Emma Gonzalez thing and I was like wow, people aren't just listening to this, they know who she is. And everyone, like millions of people in America had seen that by that night and we all woke up and I think it was the message to each other that this matters. You know it's not just David Hogg. There's a couple of these kids who are just always and that's what's so powerful, she called BS. I think 90 percent of Americans felt like that's total bull that we can't do anything about guns and kids have to just call us out and like literally said God yeah, you're right.

AMT: I mean it's really powerful because David Hogg says you know like you're the adults, do something and then she says, we call BS. They stood up in the midst of that trauma and said what the.

DC: Exactly you know we were waiting for that moment and yeah I'm sorry like I'm wiping the tears off my eyes, my face finally. Just hearing that, you know she's so powerful and then she gave another speech. But all of America was taken by that. We were waiting for someone to lead us out of this. And it's interesting after each of the tragedies -- the biggest -- some of the big ones -- Columbine, Virginia Tech, and especially Newtown, where those little kids died -- we were sure something would change and after Newtown we thought the momentum was there, and Barack Obama made it a huge part of his State of the Union address. And, you know, the president of the United States was behind this and it was going to happen and what we didn't realize is the president wasn't the right leader. And even you know one of our most inspirational presidents ever, you know our politilcal leaders are no longer really our leaders. And that wasn't the right messenger and he could not do it and these kids, the people who are the targets of this. And you have this, when we hear Emma and her voice breaking, I think we don't just see and hear someone who escaped with her life, we see and hear the future kids who are still going to die. They are stand-ins for every parent and I'm not a parent, but I've got nieces and nephews and you know I spend a lot of time with kids and it breaks my heart. We see all the future targets of someone like Emma is going to die if we don't get off our asses and start doing something. That's so much more powerful than Barack Obama ever could be.

AMT: So in the days after the shooting, they organized a big march on Washington. How did they pull that together? Something so big.

DC: It was huge in five weeks you know one of the things I went down there was to see oh God, can they do this? Because I thought it was great they were going to do a march, but in five weeks that's not enough time and high school kids and like I hope they don't blow this. Obviously something would happen in five weeks, but I had my doubts of whether they could do it right and you know the other thing my editor said is find out who's coaching them because you know right away, within the first four days I guess I was going down there and they almost seemed too good to be true.

AMT: Well in fact there was a lot of criticism right, that that was the criticism of like on Fox News and elsewhere that they're coached, that they're not real.

DC: Totally, totally and oh I was getting all these e-mails and tweets about like you know why don't you do a story on the puppet masters and who's pulling the strings and blah blah blah and we didn't think they were quite puppets, but we thought oh you know there's probably somebody helping them because they're just a little too good to be true.

AMT: So what did you find?

DC: So I found like it wasn't too good to be true. You know actually there's a huge parallel to Columbine in a weird way. The FBI spent the first week on this conspiracy of who else helped these two high school kids you know create this horrible attack, like obviously two high school kids didn't pull this off and then they realized, oh two high school kids pulled this whole thing off with these attempted bombs and everything. We underestimate kids and in both directions and this time also like, yes it was kids. After a week with them, I called them like yeah I think they're doing this themselves. And after a month I'm like oh my God okay, I'm not only, by the way once I was in the headquarters of our Muffat end it all they referred to like oh here's this room of the writers room and the writers room and I didn't say that because as a reporter you kind of like you know don't play your cards right away and keep listening in case they didn't mean to say that. And then you know Matt who was kind of one of the leaders said like oh let's do the interview back here in the writer's room.

AMT: What is the writer's room?

DC: Yeah I'm like the writer's room and he looks at me, he's like what do you think the stuff is writing itself? And I was like.

AMT: So who do they have in their writer's? Room.

DC: Well each other. So there's like two dozen of them and they're mostly drama kids and news kids. David Hogg was news director at WMSD News, their television station. They've been doing this at a very high level. It's an affluent high school.

AMT: And they're smart kids.

DC: They're smart kids. It was so, this was more like the Saturday Night Live, if you have that show up there.

AMT: We do know.

DC: Yeah. Okay and it was like oh okay, this wasn't like the Obama or especially the Hillary Clinton people advising them, like these are the people who should have maybe been advising Hillary Clinton. Like Hillary's people might have won if they had these kids,. It's you know in America.

AMT: Let me ask you another thing though because we did see news stories where were very prominent people started to give that organization money. So that was where some of the criticism came from too, but you're saying they were hands on. They were doing their thing.

DC: Oh totally. Yes, they were so good at it and they're so media savvy. Also, this entire generation is really good. They've been using Snapchat and Instagram stories and creating these like little video things every day of their life like constantly all day. And not just creating them, but testing them out and saying like you know this video got you know 600 likes. That one only got one hundred and seeing what works and what doesn't. They're getting better at it. So this whole generation is so some much more savvy than me or probably you. But then they're not all great at it, but then these kids are kind of stars at it. Like they're really clever. They started an improv group in their high school when they were, Ryan when he was a sophomore and Cameron who started the whole thing, showed up as a freshman and they created a satire newspaper at their high school making fun of the regular newspaper. They were secretly working.

AMT: They took all of those skills. You know and everybody mourns differently and of course there are a lot of people at that school. I want you to hear another clip. One of our producers, Julie Crysler, was in Florida at the end of October and she caught up with Hunter Pollack at a Republican rally. His sister Meadow was killed in theParkland shooting and he seemed angry about the attention March for Our Lives was getting. Listen to him.

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VOICE: I think it's disgusting because they've been on two book tours in less than a year. I mean they're in it, the first two months I said, maybe they're looking to do the right thing and then after the first two months I said, they're in this for followers and fame and possibly money in the future. So I don't respect them and I won't respect them moving forward.

AMT: Did you hear that kind of thing, Dave Cullen, what do you think of that clip?

DC: I did hear that kind of thing. It's kind of from the minority and you know he's a victim, he's a survivor. You know everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I was distraught when I heard people talk about these kids doing it for the wrong things. These kids were busting their butts, it was really rough on them. They were, it was taking such a toll on them. The idea that they were doing it for followers like the last thing in the world they needed is followers. It was beating up their lives. And when they did and it wasn't book tours. You know they did have books, but that's not what it was about. You know when they did this bus tour across America, which was so difficult over the summer, they spent four days in Texas because they really wanted to go to gun country and they wanted to talk to people who were pro gun and it's an open carry state. So a group followed them around Texas with automatic weapons, loaded, open, sometimes pointing at them to intimidate them for four days. These are kids, some of them going through PTSD. The last time they had seen a gun was after several hours in lockdown when the SWAT teams busted into their classroom, pointed guns at everyone because the killer could be in there and patting them down and then another group followed them across Utah. So you know I was with them on part of that tour, the last thing these kids were doing it for was I don't know for some kind of glory or like.

AMT: Yeah you know you make the point that they all grieve differently and that toll even, just like the weight of it as they continued to be activists. I've got another clip from our producer Julie Crysler when she was in Florida. In the lead up to the midterm elections several march for our lives kids talked about how tired they were. Listen to this. This is Jaclyn Corin.

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VOICE: I would say like I faciliated a lot of stuff and it's difficult at times and I'm absolutely exhausted because I've been doing it for eight straight months. So November 7th, I'm going to take a breather and then keep going. I always say that the mission is more important than that person, so I'm just pushing till November 6th because I know I'm not going to be happy if I didn't put my all on November 6th if it doesn't turn out the way we were planning on.

AMT: And of course that she's talking about the midterm elections, but did you see that? Did you see that kind of the weight that it was taking in that year of grieving as well?

DC: Totally. I mean Jaclyn's kind of my favorite. She was the behind the scenes hero. She's kind of the lead character in my book. I just adored her, but it's interesting to hear that from her because she paced herself so well. She said Cameron called her two days after this happened to come over and join them and she was already planning this bus tour to Tallahassee. She said well you know he called like past by bedtime like 9 o'clock. Her bedtime was at 8:30. She said in high school, you know I talked to her parents. That wasn't their bedtime. She's this kid, she'd only gotten one B+ in her life. And she put herself to bed at 8:30 every night in high school because that was the sensible thing to do. So this was and after about like a couple months, I talked to her about it because some of the kids were already getting burned out and I asked her about it, she said no, no I'm actually doing fine because she was pacing herself. But that couldn't go on forever and on the bus tour, halfway through it, I was talking to the kids. They were often getting three or four hours sleep at night. And they were driving that bus several hundred miles to the next stop. And it was really rough on them. Jackie was organizing the entire thing, every city, she was planning six to eight stops ahead, organizing the hall they would be in there. The publicity with people locally. She was organizing every stop while doing them.

AMT: So let me ask you because we're almost out of time here. So do you see that activism continuing, are they doing that and are they moving the needle on gun control?

DC: Oh yes. Oh totally. So the midterm election was just a watershed election for us in America. For a full generation, particularly since Al Gore lost the presidency in the year 2000, very close to running on guns, the Democrats had been running scared and cowering on gun control and doing nothing and the Republicans obviously were not obstructing. The NRA was so powerful and in intimidation and basically their message was if you take us on, we will annihalate you, especially if you're a Republican, that will be the end of your political career. And Republicans believed it and would do nothing. So for the first time that was neutralized. This electio, which flipped the House of Representatives, had historic vote totals show that wasn't true. Even a lot of Republicans in swing House districts also sided with the kids and both sides ran on gun control. The NRA had its worst election in a generation and they're running scared right now. Now they're regrouping, they're not out of this, but they were really pulverized. The message was they were really neutralized. Now politicians realized they're a bunch of hot air, they can't defeat us. The momentum is on the other side. So the kids really flipped the script in America. Now they're trying to, they're in the process of converting this from an all volunteer organization and then doing this full time to an ongoing organization. They have more than 100 different chapters already from the biggest thing besides the March for Our Lives was almost 800 sibling marches across America. And they saw that as even more important because every city, that was a kid, a high school kid or a college kid organize it themselves. That was the seeds of a group in that city and their focus this semester, spring semester, is getting a permanent organization on every large college campus in America.

AMT: It's incredible and it's an amazing story as you followed them and the difference with this specific shooting. We have to leave it there, but Dave Cullen, thanks for your work.

DC: Thank you so much.

AMT: That's Dave Cullen, he is the author of Columbine and now the author of Parkland: Birth of a Movement. And as he said, 20 years, 200 shootings and he's been covering a lot of that. He joined us from New York City. Let us know what you think of what he had to say about the impact these students are having. You can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook. Go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. And if you joined us partway through, you can listen to my conversation with Dave Cullen online or on podcast. Stay with us. Coming up, a state where parents have the right to withhold vaccinations out of personal beliefs. There's a measles outbreak that's been declared a public emergency in Washington state. We're looking at vaccinations and the rights of children. This is The Current.

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As measles outbreak grips Washington, a health expert argues vaccination is a child's human right

Guests: Monica Stonier, Noni MacDonald, Liz Hoath

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and this is The Current.

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VOICE: When you take away a person's freedom and medical choice, mandating vaccines for education. That is it coercion and it leads us into a totalitarian regime, taking away democracy.

AMT: Well that was one of the hundreds of protesters on the steps of the Capitol building in Olympia, Washington last week, advocating for the right not to vaccinate their children. Washington State is currently one of 17 U.S. states where parents are allowed to opt out of vaccinations for philosophical reasons. Washington State is also currently grappling with an outbreak of measles so serious that the governor has declared it a public health emergency. There are now 58 known cases of measles in the state and in neighboring Oregon and another 13 more suspected cases in Clark County Washington alone. It is against this backdrop that new state legislation is being debated that would eliminate the exemptions for the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine, the MMR. Monica Stonier is a Democratic member of the state legislature representing Clark County. She's also one of the co-sponsors of the new legislation and we've reached her in Olympia, Washington. Hello.

MONICA STONIER: Hello. Thank you for having me.

AMT: How serious is this outbreak that you're dealing with in your state right now?

MS: Well it's highly concentrated in Southwest Washington, the a quarter of the state where I'm from. And the challenge we're facing now is that our public health officials, our schools, our doctors offices are struggling with their current resources keep the community safe from spreading the disease even further, given our high number of unvaccinated community members. So you know just considering going to the doctor for something that you think may be related to the measles, you'd have to call ahead to make sure they can prepare intake in a way that doesn't expose others in the community. So we're just seeing that play out across the region.

AMT: What does is it feel like to be at the epicenter of all of this then?

MS: Well it's highly concerning. You know for me I'm a middle school teacher when I'm not as a lawmaker and you just recognizing how quickly you know things can spread when you watch kids move through a school building you can you know imagine what that's like when magnified to the community at large. One of the hot spots for example for the measles outbreak was at the Motor Center where the Portland Blazers play, an NBA basketball team plays. And if you can just think about all the places where people concentrate, a disease like the measles that is so incredibly contagious, you can contract measles by being in a room two hours after somebody who has the measles sneezes in that room. So I mean just considering the alarming concern I have for my community it's really frustrating to not able to do more.

AMT: And these hotspots are they related to the anti-vaccination movement?

MS: Southwest Washington where I'm from and there are definitely other parts of the state as well have high numbers of people who are not vaccinated. So we know when you don't have the high percentage you know 95 97 percent of people vaccinated then the disease can spread quite quickly. What we're finding now is that as people are learning about the outbreak they choose to get their children vaccinated. In southwest Washington we've seen that number spike dramatically. So you know I think we're also seeing a little bit of education having an impact on people's decisions.

AMT: What went into the governor's decision to declare this a public health emergency?

MS: We're on the second and third wave of people kind of coming to health centres with the disease. And so we're not actually sure if we've reached the tipping point where that's going to turn or the numbers are going to continue to increase. And I think the governor recognizes that we don't have full information about how widespread this is going to get and how quickly. So we really needed to deploy state resources to Southwest Washington to help.

AMT: You made the point that there are's education going on and some people are coming in, what is your sense of why people were not having their children vaccinated.

MS: You know I think it was really easy for people to make the choice not to vaccinate their children, but whether or not those children can come to school and be susceptible to the measles and also contribute to the spreading I think is a challenge that we have to face currently now.

AMT: So what would your legislation do and how would it change things?

MS: So it would remove the philosophical or personal exemption, which is you know is something that exists only in 18 or maybe 17 states currently. Much of what we've heard from folks around the country are from ironically states that have eliminated that personal exemption. It will also, we're working on amendments to tighten the religious exemption to make sure that if somebody claims to have a religious exemption for vaccination, that it's one that we can identify as a position held by the church and not just another version of a personal exemption. And then also we have to look at some other areas where we might need to extend the requirement like for example adults who are working in child care centers like Kindercare or something like that to make sure that the babies that are there and not old enough to be vaccinated yet are not exposed.

AMT: What would the penalty be if people do not get their children vaccinated?

MS: Well certainly you would not be able to send your students to school in a public school setting without you know a lot of conversations about when you'll be getting your child vaccinated. And you know I think the penalty might be that you just you can't work, it'll be difficult to get a job at a childcare center, if we are able to pass that requirement as well. So there's not a financial you know penalty or anything like that currently, it's really just an opportunity for us to make sure people have access to accurate medically peer-reviewed research when theyre making decisions about vaccinations.

AMT: And do you think people who are the so-called anti-vaxers would be convinced by a stricter law?

MS: No not necessarily. I mean these are parents who wholeheartedly and I honestly with heart believe that they feel that vaccinations have injured their children and that they are doing the work that any parent should be doing to protect their children. And I very deeply respect that. I also feel that if everybody enjoyed that same level of choice about whether or not their children would be vaccinated we may be in a situation like you see in other places around the world, where children are dying as a result of measles. So I think you know I don't think they will be convinced otherwise. It's my hope to reach those folks that are waffling on the side of misinformation and we can maybe help educate them on the true risks and they can make a more informed decision at that point. That's my hope and from what I can see that's starting to happen.

AMT: What was your reaction when you saw hundreds of parents rallying at the state capital Friday to protest?

MS: Not at all surprised. There were a lot of parents there that were frustrated with the concept of removing the exemption. There are also many parents, school officials, county elected officials, community health officials, doctors in support of removing the exemption so that we are sure to have more children vaccinated before coming to school.

AMT: Among the people who testified against your bill last Friday was activist Robert F. Kennedy Jr. He's certainly a famous name lending credibility to the anti-vaccination movement. How concerned are you about the contagion effect from people spreading misinformation about vaccines?

MS: I'm highly concerned about it. I think we you know we just we have to do a better job of getting good information out there I think we're working on that in places where the outbreak occur. I would also say that our public health departments are incredibly underfunded and a lot of the preventative measures we could have taken may have been done if we had better funding for community health workers. And we'll continue to work on that. Right. I mean the tension that we are getting some big names around the country you know does bring some credibility to it. But you know very clearly Junior was absolutely correct. It's a tough moral decision and he did he recognized that in his comments before our committee. And he's wrong. I mean this is a tough decision to make, but right now our community are at risk and the measles is a preventable disease that we thought we had eradicated. And now we have to work in that direction again.

AMT: Okay. Well Monica Stonier, thanks for taking the time today to talk to me.

MS: Thank you.

AMT: Bye bye. Monica Stonier is a Democratic member of the Washington state legislature and a district hard hit by a measles outbreak. She joined us from Olympia, Washington. Well as you heard the outbreak in Washington State and Oregon is having a major side effect, a jump in the demand for vaccines. A nurse practitioner at a high school in Portland, Oregon told National Public Radio that she's been approached by unvaccinated students interested in getting their shots. Something similar is happening in other parts of the US. 18-year-old Ethan Lindenberger of Ohio made headlines after posting on the message board Reddit. He was asking for advice on how he could go about getting his vaccination now that he's 18 and can legally do so on his own. He told NPR's Weekend Edition that he's been told by his mother not to trust vaccines and he believed her until he started doing his own research.

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VOICE: I remember I approached my mom with an article by the CBC and asked why according to CBC, vaccines don't cause autism and why mercury is not this extremely dangerous substance and poison found in vaccines that you know some people like yourself would claim and her response was simply that's what they want you to think. I was just blown away that you know the largest heatlh organization in the entire world would be written off with a conspiracy theory statement like that. So moments like that I can recall back to where I just thought like the concern with the evidence is not here. My mom had always known I disagreed with her and figured that that was going to pass, but it didn't and once I actually had finally went out and got vaccinations it caused some stress in the house where she looked at it as me getting vaccines for a gesture of rebellion and not for my own sake and for the sake of people around me.

AMT: Vaccinations are mandatory in all 50 of the United States, although in some places parents can use philosophical, religious or medical exemptions to avoid them. And as we heard from Washington State, governments are now trying to limit how those exemptions can be used. That's something Arthur Caplan supports. Arthur Caplan is a professor and the head of the Division of Medical Ethics at NYU School of Medicine. He thinks governments should be much more forceful on this issue because he sees vaccines as a right that ought to be protected, regardless of a parent's beliefs.

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VOICE: The states that have the broadest exemptions in the US have the most non-vaccinaters. So people get wound up about parents rights and the rights to refuse, but what they ignored is what I think is the more fundamental right, the right of children to be healthy. And the state, the government, public health has to speak up for that. The kids can't vaccinate themselves, the kids are little and I would argue that those exemptions should be restricted. There are health reasons not to get a vaccine and I understand that, but I would get rid of religious exemptions and philosophical exemptions. You could certainly penalize people and fine them if you wanted to, I propose at the far end, look if you cause harm to my child because you didn't vaccinate, then you ought to be liable for the cost of any hospitalization.

AMT: Well here in Canada, there are only three provinces, Ontario, Manitoba and New Brunswick with mandatory vaccination rules in order for children to enroll in public school. So far this year, there have been documented cases of measles in British Columbia, but nowhere else in the country. But public health experts say our overall rates of vaccination are a cause for concern and could open the door to future outbreaks. Dr. Noni Macdonald Is a professor of pediatrics at Dalhousie University. She's a specialist in pediatric infectious diseases at the IWK Health Centre in Halifax and she joins us from Halifax. Hi.

NONI MACDONALD: Good morning.

AMT: What do you think of the idea that it should be more difficult for parents to choose not to vaccinate their children?

NM: This is a very complex area, Anna Maria. I hate it when we set up education versus vaccination because children need both. They need to be vaccinated and they need to be able to go to school. So it should never come down to this dichotomy. And this fight where you're trying to value one over the other. You know a lot of anti-vaxers, they use some very common techniques to put their ideas forward. One is conspiracy, as that young man said. Others just pick out the facts that they want to pick out and don't want to listen to any others. They put forward fake experts that are not really experts in vaccinology. And the biggest thing they do is present misinformation and false logic. We actually now have some data to show that none of us like to be conned. We don't like to be seen as maybe being stupid and not understanding what the information really says and there's now some data to say that we may be able to overcome some of what these anti-science people are saying by pointing out the techniques they use and then correcting their misinformation. So I'd hope we as your person from Washington State said, as we start to educate families about what the real issues are and how they're being conned by the anti-vaccine movement, that we will see more and more parents moving towards immunization.

AMT: Well remind us how Canada stacks up in terms of our overall vaccination rates.

NM: I wish I could be more optimistic. You know we're over 80 percent, but we're not at the 95 96 percent you need for measles, mumps and rubella vaccine. We only have one to two percent that are outright absolute total refusers, but that other 15 to 17 per cent are not immunizing on time with all the vaccines that are needed and we need to correct that. We're not good when we compare ourselves to many of the other OECD countries.

AMT: So why, you're saying not everyone is stanchly opposed. So why do people not vaccinate?

NM: It's more complex than just trusting the vaccine or confidence in the vaccine, which is what some of your other speakers were talking about the other issues around vaccine hesitancy include complacency where they just don't see any of these vaccine preventable diseases as being a problem and they've got really busy lives. It's not that they're anti vaccine it's just it's not high enough up on the Richter scale to get out there to get their kids immunized. So fascinating coming from that legislator representative in Washington state, she said now that they're having this measles outbreak they are having people come forward. Not who were anti vaccine, but it was complacency. They just didn't see that need and now with the measles outbreak they are seeing the need. The other reason people slowdown is called constraints or convenience issues. We don't necessarily offer clinics at the times when eople can get there. So if you're a worker who's paid by the hour and if you don't go to work you don't get paid. You may be arguing between do I take my kid to be immunized or do I make the money, so I can feed my child. So you know we need a system to be set up to really address those constrained issues, so it's easy for kids to get immunized.

AMT: Now Washington state wants to introduce rules that are far more strict for mandatory vaccinations. Do you know what has happened in jurisdictions where they have tightened the rules and taken away exemptions?

NM: It isn't fairy dust. It isn't magic. So what's happening in some of these states, for example in California there's a recent report that show it's very strict and only medical exemptions are accepted and in that state we now have doctors and I put this in quotation marks, that are selling medical exemptions. And the question is how do you police that? How do you stop that from happening? Public health can't go in and take that doctor's license away. It has to be the College of Physicians and Surgeons, the licensing body and they have to see this as enough of a problem to remove that guy from being able to practice medicine at all. So this is quite complicated when you get down to how do we actually enforce some of these legislations that have been put forward and how people find devious methods to get around them.

AMT: Australia has cut off child benefit payments to those who don't vaccinate. What do you think of that?

NM: That was one of the unintended consequences, in contrast to the ones where you just don't go to school. When they want to put this forward they thought this would stimulate a lot of the people that they wanted to get immunized, who were not doing it to come forward, but they only went up 1.5 [ercent in the rate of increase in immunization. And most of the people who were not being able to come forward were in that lower income bracket. This was a constrains issue. This was not a confidence in vaccine issue. They just couldn't get there and get it done easily and among that middle income group that they really wanted to go after, it only went up by 19 percent. So one percent chose not immunize still.

AMT: We heard Arthur Caplan in New York say that we should think of vaccination as a right for the child. What do you think of that?

NM: You know there have been a lot of people who say immunization should be a human right and personally I think that is true. Its like education. You should have a right to education and a right to immunization. The right to immunization is really important. We know in the last hundred years in Canada, we increased our survival rate by about 30 years, 25 Anna Maria of those 30 years, came from only three things: clean water and immunization and to a much lesser extent, access to anti-biotics. If we don't immunize, we go backwards and we don't want to go backwards in our mortality. People forget in the measles outbreaks and this is true in 2019, 1 in 1000 people still die from measles. So if you get bad news pneumonia or you get measles, you are doomed. Pick your country. It's the same, even when they have terrific health care systems and access to everything we know. You got to prevent. That's why we immunize.

AMT: Dr. MacDonald, thank you for giving us your perspective. Thanks for your time.

NM: You're welcome.

AMT: Dr. Noni MacDonald is a professor of pediatrics at Dalhousie University and a specialist in pediatric infectious diseases at the IWK Health Centre in Halifax.

[Music]

AMT: Earlier this week, we told you about a disturbing number of coaches involved in youth amateur sports, who've been convicted of a sexual offense against a minor. A joint investigation by CBC News and Sports put together a database of coaches charged over the last two decades. CBC reporter Jamie Strashin gave us the numbers.

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VOICE: In the last 20 years, Anna Maria, 340 coaches involved in amateur sports in Canada have been charged with a sexual offense. Out of those charges, 222 convictions involving more than 600 victims and currently, as this investigation is going to air, there's 34 cases still before the court. A lot of these cases were historical, in fact in 35 percent of the cases, the victim came forward more than 10 years after the event occurred. So lots of different stories, all of them tragic.

AMT: Liz Hoath was the producer on that story for The Current and she joins me with some of the feedback we are getting. Hi Liz.

LIZ HOATH: Hi Anna Maria.

AMT: This series is getting a lot of reaction.

LH: Well when you think about it, hundreds of thousands of kids are involved in youth sports in the country and when you say more than 600 kids are victims of this in the last 20 years, it gets parents thinking right, what about my kids? And then sports clubs are now starting to talk more about this, about what they could possibly do. So we received lots of letters about it from people like Sherry Bakes in Vancouver. It brought up memories for her and she writes. "Some of my friends were sexually abused by their soccer coach when they were kids. My friend had gone with his parents to the police station to report it and the police told them not to press charges because it would be too hard on the kids. But there was a record of it and as an adult, my friend went back again and the coach was tried, convicted and went to jail. He was high profiled in town and others in the community refused to believe it, until he went to jail.

AMT: Well that rings true for the story we heard earlier this week of the figure skater Brian Jessup.

LH: Right because the man who was later convicted for sexually assaulting him was a well known coach, really highly regarded and Brian felt pretty lucky to be training with him, but he ended up moving in with his coach and traveling with him, things that he thinks should have raised alarm bells for the adults around him.

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VOICE: Almost feel like maybe people did have suspicions and turned a blind eye. Like I wish I could say you know I should have come forward back then and told somebody, but I don't know how it's possible even in today's sports how a young kid could do that. And that's something that we all need to figure out is what tools can we put in place to make a kid feel safe enough to come forward and tell somebody.

AMT: That's such a good point, if they're so vulnerable and they're feeling vulnerable, it's that part of getting kids to be able to talk that's so tough.

LH: Right and the experts we heard from are saying that maybe education is one piece of this, right, is telling kids what's okay, what's not okay and what do you do if there's something that you're concerned about. We also got another idea and this one comes from Val Rocker and she's writing us from BC and she writes, "pretty well every team has a coach, but what if every team also had a team mom. The coach looks after skill building, the team mom looks after the psychological well-being of the participants. So when forming a team, these two people are brought on board right from the start."

AMT: And does it have to be a mom?

LH: Well I mean you're talking to a youth soccer coach here myself, so I don't think the role for women always needs to be that safety person. We can't always assume that the coaches are men. But Val has thought this through and she goes on to write, "I'm calling this person a team mom because the sexual predators tend to be men and I would hate to see a coach in cahoots with another man abusing players." Anna Maria, I just want to add something here is that the investigation did find that the majority of people accused and convicted are men. There were nine women convicted and 213 men. So about four percent of the people convicted were women. So back to Val's letter, she continues. " The team mom would meet with all the team members at the beginning of the season and explain her role. She will say that she will be meeting with every player one on one midway through the season to make sure that everyone is enjoying the sport they are participating in. And she will meet with them again at the end of the season. This would get around the fact that many sexual predators have never been caught and so criminal record check does no good. Have the safety mechanism set up for each and every team in Canada, in this way the predators won't have a chance to abuse their players and children won't have to have their lives ruined."

AMT: It's an interesting idea.

LH: It's tough right. Hundreds of clubs, challenge would be implementing and enforcing that system, but it's certainly one way to go. Anna Maria, we also got a letter from Marc Poulin and he's the president of the Calgary Grizzlies Speedskating club. This is a pretty new club. They've been around for about a year and a half. They're up to 62 skaters now, with the youngest being three years old and the oldest about 16 and he was surprised to learn that more clubs don't have guidelines in place and he admits that maybe it's easier for new clubs like his because they were starting from scratch. They didn't have any guidelines to change. So what they've done is they've adopted policies that were developed and handed down by the Coaching Association of Canada.

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VOICE: For parents when they register their kid, they complete a parental consent form. The skaters are asked to read and sign an active agreement and a code of conduct that describes a code of conduct policy. For the coaches, they undergo coaching matrix I guess that includes an application form and then a screening process with the volatile sector of verification and then the coaching agreement.

LH: So Marc Poulin thinks that these kinds of things, these forums, they raise the level of awareness, so that everyone in the club knows that they have a role to play.

AMT: Now one last letter comes from Greg of St. Andrews, Manitoba.

LH: He writes sexual abuse of young athletes by their coaches is the worst aspect of a much more pervasive culture of emotional and physical bullying behaviour by coaches throughout all youth sports. The toxic effects of bullying by coaches is underappreciated because of a long tradition of masochism and the mythical tough coach that persists in sport. I hope this investigation continues on to explore the damage caused to youth athletes by non-sexual abuse.

AMT: There's so much more to talk about, clearly from what these letters are saying.

LH: Certainly the investigation touched a nerve.

AMT: Liz Hoath, thank you.

LH: You're welcome.

AMT: Liz Hoath is a producer with The Current. For more on Shattered Trust: Sexual offences in amateur sport, you can visit cbc.ca/shatteredtrust. And if you still want to weigh in on this, please send us your notes to cbc.ca/thecurrent. Find us on Facebook. Go to us on Twitter, we are @TheCurrentCBC. That's our program for today. Stay with Radio One for Q. Canadian comic, Sugar Sammy, is on the program today. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thank you for listening to The Current.

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Feb. 13, 2019 episode transcript

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