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The Current Transcript for February 8, 2019

Host: Piya Chattopadhyay

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

At every step we had to fight and you know we had to fight and we're a group of people with brain injury.

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: She is a Canadian diplomat who was posted to Cuba. She and members of her family are suffering from what's been dubbed Havana syndrome but she's been fighting more than or help. She's been battling her employer. This week she, along with other diplomats, launched a multimillion dollar legal fight against Global Affairs Canada for failing to protect them. In just a moment you'll hear from her about her experience and frustrations. And that's not the only controversy dogging the federal government. Some very serious allegations landed on the liberals doorstep yesterday. They involve the construction giant SNC Lavalin. And the surprise demotion last month of Canada's attorney general at the time Jody Wilson-Raybould.

SOUNDCLIP

In her letter to Canadians she warned that it is a pillar of our democracy that our system of justice be free from even the perception of political interference. We now understand truly what she meant.

PC: That is the NDP's Nathan Cullen just one of the many piling after allegations of attempted political meddling. Our political panel has all the angles covered in half an hour. After that.

SOUNDCLIP

Insecurity will scare away the doctors helping to fight against Ebola. If they leave then the virus will spread and it will kill even more people. It's a real danger.

PC: What's more worrisome is what is currently an Ebola epidemic could become endemic. It's all taking place in one of the world's worst war zones and you'll hear how the dots are connected between Congo Ebola outbreak and your cell phone. Hi I'm Piya Chattopadhyay. This is the Friday edition of The Current.

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'We had to fight': Canadian diplomats accused of faking brain injuries, says plaintiff

Guest: Plantiff

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PC: Over the past few years. People have been wondering what has been causing five Canadian diplomats and members of their families in Cuba to fall ill. They say they suffered headaches, nausea, nosebleeds and when they were examined by doctors they showed concussion symptoms. The cause of the symptoms remain a mystery, although there was early speculation of some kind of sonic attack. Others wondered whether it was caused by a newfangled surveillance system. Cuba has denied any responsibility. But whatever the cause, 14 Canadians say they suffered brain injuries. They're suing Global Affairs Canada now for 28 million dollars. One of the plaintiffs has agreed to talk to us. And we have agreed not to use her name. Hello.

PLANTIFF: Hi.

PC: Where are you suing Global Affairs?

PLANTIFF: Well first let's make it clear that we're not suing Global Affairs Canada because we were attacked. We know it's not their fault and for the couple first weeks we understand that this was unprecedented and there is always a little delay in reaction. But this delay was so long and we feel that we were ignored and we had to fight for recognition of symptoms. We had to fight for specialized medical attention, specialized care and all and messages were not heard and were ignored. And because of that the very critical information about hell that would help understand what's going on, well, we could not gather this evidence. And they kept asking families with children in the same houses where we were living.

PC: To this point what has Global Affairs Canada and or the government of Canada provided for you and the others?

PLANTIFF: So one year and a half later, so we're talking about incidents that took place in spring 2017 and in October 2018 we were sent to Dalhousie at the brain repair center for specialised assessment. So that was provided by Global Affairs Canada. And I would add that the equivalent hasn't happened yet for the kids.

PC: You have two children yes?

PLANTIFF: I do.

PC: And they have not been seen, treated, any of that, covered by Global Affairs Canada.

PLANTIFF: In June 2017, my daughter because she had more severe symptoms were sent to Bloor View in Toronto but that was not for any type of assessment. It was more to see specialist and find some coping mechanism to alleviate symptoms in her life. So you know no magneto encephalogram, no MRI, no cognitive testing, nothing to document their health.

PC: How old is she?

PLANTIFF: She is nine now.

PC: And how is she now?

PLANTIFF: She is doing better and we are very glad that she's doing so, but you know on kids it is very hard to tell what's associated to this kind of syndrome and what's not, even for adults. So if at least we could get the same kind of assessment as we had in the house, but for kids. Or had the same kind of assessment that was provided through the kids of US affected families. We're not asking for a lot I think and we feel that kids should be the priority. I cannot explain why we are still trying to find a solution for them.

PC: Let's go back a bit. When did you first notice your own symptoms? What were the first signs for you that something wasn't quite right?

PLANTIFF: It was a spring 2017 I started to have sleeping issues waking up in the middle of night and not feeling well, headaches, balance issues.

PC: Obviously those are difficult things to deal with. How was it affecting your day to day sort of routine, your life, your work, your home life?

PLANTIFF: I mean I was able to keep up and I knew I was sick but I didn't know why. So you know as everyone I think you just push through. What I had said to my husband is that when we'll be in Canada for vacation, I'll do some blood test and make sure that I don't have any anything severe.

PC: Your husband was also posted to Havana, also a diplomat, yes?

PLANTIFF: Yes.

PC: Was he showing symptoms as well?

PLANTIFF: It's very hard to tell because you know my symptoms were very clear as opposed to him, but further testing demonstrate that he had been affected as well.

PC: And what about your other colleagues? When you talk to your colleagues and go, look, I can't sleep, I'm feeling dizzy, I have headaches - do they say, yes, I am feeling the same things or what did they tell you?

PC: What I knew at the time was that some Americans had been victim of sonic attacks and during those attacks you know they heard very loud noise and they had very acute symptoms at the same time. So I never thought that could be related. And I didn't really talk about it you know only with one colleague and my husband and that was it. But when it is beginning of June 2017 when they intervened all Canadian base staff and the ambassador told us there was a family in Miami later they were diagnosed with a brain injury. So all of them, two kids and my colleague and his spouse and the asked us if we had any weird symptoms. So I made the list and I was sent to Canada for further testing.

PC: Did you at any point asked to be reassigned or to send you and your family elsewhere, like we got to get out, you need to move us, please do so?

PLANTIFF: But what happened is that in June when I came to Canada I came with my two kids and my husband. And my two kids and my has been you know a very basic testing that you do on people after concussions and they were all cleared. Even if we later discovered that they were also affected. And I was cleared. I was sent for further men's medical investigation and I saw an ENT either because I was dizzy. And so I went through some specialized testing to see if I had some vestibular problems. So I never got the results from the ENT. We were seen at the National Defense hospital. It was considered good secret and I was not able to get my results. So I kind of assume that they were okay and we took the decision to fly back to Havana mid-August after our vacation and what happened is that the news broke out in the media that U.S. diplomats had been victims of what they called at the time sonic attacks. The following day I received a phone call from the National Defense hospital to set up an appointment with me for a follow up appointment with the ENT.

PC: So just so I understand this. You went and saw your nose and throat specialist and ENT. You had testing done. ENT never told you or no one ever told you what the results of those tests were.

PLANTIFF: That's it. Without knowing the results of my vestibular testing we took the decision that we would hold back to Havana. So I had to take a call from the EMT at the embassy and I got my results that you know he had seen and kind of damage in my vestibular area in the inner ear and that it looks like my damage was not permanent and because of that my file was closed. And then I said well you know I still have headaches and I am not well at all. I know I am sick. He told me that I should look for sleep apnea with my family doctor, which is something my family doctor had discounted months ago. So I just hang up and I was very frustrated. After that there was another confirmed attack on an American. So there was a new case and we thought the whole thing was all over. But the ambassador told us that because there was a confirmed case, plus because you know of my medical condition he could not guarantee our safety and that we would be repatriated. So we stayed three weeks in total before we were repatriated and that was end of August. I went back to Canada beginning of September and I had to wait for five months before I got any type of specialized appointment. In September 2017, the Americans had a diagnosis and they were already doing rehabitation. So they had a treatment plan. And we were still fighting, try to get an assessment, a diagnosis. So we [unintelligible]getting a treatment.

PC: So when you were calling your superiors and government officials the government of Canada and saying, look, I have these symptoms that are very similar to the ones at my American colleagues have and have been diagnosed with and are now on treatment. What are they saying to you?

PLANTIFF: Basically we were kind of ignore it and after that we went back in with our professional association. So they were sending letters for us. You know our letters went to the PM level. So we were really pushing as hard as we could all to say that we're in early 2018 and we are kind of desperate. So a small group of us decided to go to the United States at the same space center where the 24 affected American diplomats had been seen and they were diagnosed with a brain injury and the same kind of weird injury as the Americans. So basically what we did as a group is we took the diagnosis and we shared it with Global Affairs Canada. And you know with this information in hand they had to react, and that's why three weeks later they announced that the mission in Havana would become non accompanied. That was in April 2018. So it means that diplomats would not bring their kids and spouse with them anymore.

PC: In your statement of claim that you and the others have filed you say that the government downplayed the seriousness of the situation and withheld information. How so?

PLANTIFF: We tried to get recognition of the problem. We had to fight to every-- at every every step we had to fight. And you know we had to fight and we're a group of people with brain injury. So I don't know how many how loose we spent in [unintelligible] with each other, working an a letter, trying to convene as a group, work on a strategy, work with the professional association. It's just crazy.

PC: And at the same time some people were accused of faking it. Was lobbed at you know?

PLANTIFF: Yes. I mean I know this story and I think it's unbelievable. And, you know, I think it's part of the attempt of downplaying the situation. You know it's the same -- when we were repatriated end of August, well, they never explained to other Canadian families there that we had been repatriated. They let, floated the idea that you know, I was panicked, and because of that we had decided to leave. You know everything was very opaque. It was taboo to even mention it. I mean I was not there anymore but from testimonies that I heard, it was very toxic atmosphere because you know, you could not raise it but everyone was a bit stressed with it.

PC: Prime Minister Trudeau spoke about your case Thursday and I want to play just a bit of what he said.

SOUNDCLIP

We've taken very seriously the situation in Cuba. There is no question that the health impacts on diplomats in Cuba have been invisible and real. We are continuing to work with local authorities and not work with the RCMP to determine what is the source of these sounds or this issue that they are facing. We've been taking it very very seriously from the beginning. We will continue to work to take very seriously the health of the safety of all Canadians who serve anywhere overseas.

PC: We lost the line but we've got you back now. What did you make of what the Prime Minister said?

PLANTIFF: Yes with all due respect I would ask him why it took so long before we got specialized care. Why it so long before they presented measures to protect [unintelligible] families. I would also ask why our kids still do not have the medical attention they deserve.

PC: What is your message to Canadians?

PLANTIFF: We've been very quiet. There was no recognition that's our problem real. There was all this theory about mass hysteria that [unintelligible]. It is not evidence based, it's just people looking for explanation and looking for answers but without investigation. So it was very hard to have our credibility attacked like that.

PC: You and your family who have who are affected by this, this has been about a year and a half now. How are you? How is your health now?

PLANTIFF: I'm still with a lot of migraines. It's my main problem. Every time I go in a very loud environment or in a very bright environment, it's a [unintelligible] headache. If I do too much I will suffer from headache. We're talking about migraines. Dizziness is almost resolved. I say almost because when I'm tired or maybe without explanation I can be dizzy for five days in a row and the same for headaches.

PC: And your family?

PLANTIFF: Well my husband he had clear signs of brain injury himself as well. You know it makes me very worried for my kids. We don't know in 10 years how our brain will be. You know when we raise questions, often we don't get answers.

PC: Thank you very much. I very much appreciate you making the time and I wish you and your family and your colleagues a good recovery and back to full health. Thank you.

PLANTIFF: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

PC: I was speaking with a Canadian diplomat who was posted in Havana Cuba. She is one of 14 people suing Global Affairs Canada for its response to their health complaints. By the way we did request a statement from the minister responsible, Chrystia Freeland. She is not commenting on the specifics of the case, but she has said that she met with some of the diplomats and quote "their health and safety needs to be our priority and they have my true sympathy and concern". End quote. All right. The CBC News is next. Then, taking the political pulse after yesterday's bombshell allegations. We've got a panel of all watchers standing by. They'll join me when the Friday edition of tTe Current returns in just a bit. I am Piya Chattopadhyay.

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Trudeau's denial of SNC-Lavalin allegations like 'a hand grenade with the pin pulled out,' says commentator

Guests: Susan Delacourt, Tim Powers, Martin Patriquin

PC: Hi I'm Piya Chattopadhyay and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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PC: Still to come the only thing harder than stamping out Ebola is doing it in a conflict zone. We'll hear from Doctors Without Borders' field co-ordinator who is part of the solution in the Democratic Republic of Congo. That's coming up in half an hour. And after that, you may heard the news that would be asylum seeker to Australia, being held on an island of Papua New Guinea, was awarded one of Australia's most prestigious literary awards for a novel he wrote via text message. We'll hear from his friend translator, later on in today's show. But first let's turn to the allegations turning Ottawa upside down.

SOUNDCLIP

I am incredibly proud of the work that I did. We accomplished essentially my mandate letter plus.

PC: That was Jody Wilson-Raybould last month after being shuffled out of her post as the first ever indigenous female justice minister. Her move to Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence was a big surprise to many at the time. And then yesterday came a shock with a bombshell report in The Globe and Mail which proffered a possible explanation for just what happened. The allegations involve SNC Lavalin, the Montreal based engineering and construction company, a corporate giant which is facing fraud and corruption charges and has been trying to avoid a criminal trial. And the report suggests that Mrs. Wilson-Raybould may have faced political pressure to intervene in the case. This was Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's response.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: The allegations reported in the story are false. At no time did I or my office direct the current or previous attorney general to make any particular decision into his matter.

JOURNALIST: But not necessarily direct, Prime Minister, was there any sort of influence whatsoever?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: As I've said, at no time did we direct the Attorney General, current or previous, to take any decision whatsoever in this matter.

PC: But the conservative opposition leader Andrew Scheer smelled blood.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW SCHEER: Very serious allegations have been raised and the Prime Minister has been completely unable to respond to them. He has stayed very carefully close to a very carefully crafted legalistic answer. And let me remind me, this is the same prime minister who said that there is nothing wrong with his illegal vacation. This is the same prime minister who said that there is nothing to see with the Mark Norman affair. This is the same prime minister who said that there is nothing wrong with this Minister of Fisheries and Oceans giving contracts to members of his family. So you'll pardon me if I don't take Justin Trudeau's words.

PC: Well we've got three political watchers to talk about how this story is playing out in Ottawa and beyond, as well as to talk about the other goings on on Parliament Hill this week. In Ottawa, I'm joined by Susan Delacourt national columnist in Ottawa Bureau Chief for The Toronto Star. Also in Ottawa, I'm joined by Tim Powers. He's a former Conservative party adviser and commentator and vice chairman of Summa Strategies. And in our Montreal studio is Martin Patriquin. He is a columnist for iPolitics.ca And the Montreal Gazette. Hi to all three of you.

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: Hi.

SUSAN DELACOURT: Good morning.

PC: First off all let us begin with a response to this story particularly, coming from the prime minister yesterday. Susan Delacourt what do you make of it?

SUSAN DELACOURT: Well in stories like this - and my colleagues here on this panel will agree - that what's not said is probably more important than what is said. And the Prime Minister was visibly very careful yesterday to say he didn't direct Mrs. Wilson-Raybould to do anything untoward. What is striking in this whole story yesterday is the silence. The fact that the minister herself has not been speaking, the fact that the Prime Minister is saying very little. And this builds on a previous silence. I think the big burning question in Ottawa has been what caused her demotion. And politics like nature abhors a vacuum and now we are seeing facts and speculation rush in.

PC: Okay we're going to get to Jody Wilson-Raybould silence from yesterday. But let's stick with the Prime Minister for a moment, Tim Powers, because if silence matters, so do words. What are you reading into what happened yesterday?

TIM POWERS: Direct is like a hand grenade with the pin pulled out. Certainly that's the impact that it had when the prime minister used it yesterday because as one of your colleagues there and the follow up that you played, Piya, begin to ask, 'if you didn't direct what does that mean?' Using that word and using that very legalistic type language has now opened the door to a never ending cascade of questions about, well if you didn't direct, what did that mean? So what is at play here? The government - as most governments would find themselves in a difficult circumstance like this - is trying to play an aggressive firm consistent defence, but not unlike when the prime minister had to respond to allegations about behaviour in the past that were brought up in B.C. by the paper in Creston, he's using language that's inviting more questions. And that is going to be a problem for him.

PC: Martin Patriquin this SNC Lavalin story, I mean it has galvanized the opposition in Ottawa. How vulnerable do you think this all makes our Prime Minister Trudeau?

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: It makes them vulnerable in the sense that it sort of plays on a lot of the old tropes. This is bigger than Justin Trudeau. This goes to the Liberal Party of Canada, that it placed the old tropes that basically the Liberal Party of Canada is trying to buy Quebec's votes buy off Quebec's favour by letting off one of its crown jewels off easy. And that has almost like a ping pong effect. So we - I say, we I say Quebecers - feel like well, SNC level is in trouble four for fraud and all sorts of corruption and then so they feel bad, first of all. And then the rest of the country feels angry at Quebec for what they perceive as being preferential treatment. Those it's almost Tim used the word cascading there. It's a cascading issue here in Quebec. And the other the other important thing to remember too is that 2019 the Liberals have put a lot of stock in bringing up the Quebec to sort of make up for some losses they have expected to see across the country in the election. And this puts a big question mark beside that.

PC: Okay. Suzan Delacourt, you brought up the former A.G., the justice minister Jody Wilson-Raybould. Her only comment yesterday was her walking down the street and she said 'no comment'. That is standing out for many people. Where does that fit into this puzzle?

SUSAN DELACOURT: Well it is I think it invites and leads to speculation that she is the one responsible for this story, whether she likes it or not.

PC: Meaning she leaked it.

SUSAN DELACOURT: Yes. She has gone from being the biggest victim of the cabinet shuffle in many people's eyes to the biggest whistleblower in this government, or so it looks like. I think what I and other reporters in Ottawa are going to be thinking about today and wondering about is not only will she speak and either confirm or deny these reports which, as I was saying, are just building, but how does she remain a cabinet minister. I think Chantal Hebert said this last night on at issue on the national. Chantal wondered if she was being asked to do something so unprincipled why didn't she leave cabinet. And if this is her story finally coming out about why she thinks that she was demoted in Cabinet, how can she stay in cabinet. This one is going to bubble up all day and maybe over the weekend too.

PC: Martin Patriquin, is that the only kind of viable reason you can see for Jody Wilson-Raybould not saying more on this yesterday, that Susan alleges that she is the person who leaked this story now finds herself still in Cabinet, but in a really precarious position in her relationship with the prime minister.

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: Possibly I think it also could speak to the fact of- and this goes back- I mean the idea that the PMO wouldn't, Tim used the grenade analogy. The PMO doesn't direct people. The PMO as an existence is almost like a conciliatory from the Godfather. It is big all-powerful sort of all-knowing and it doesn't really ever suggested or direct people to do things, because it doesn't have. It just has to suggest. And that's the conceit that I see in what Mr. Trudeau's saying. His father is the architect of the all seeing all powerful PMO. And what we are seeing today is basically a reflection of that.

PC: Tim Powers where is Jody Wilson-Raybould? I mean what of her now in your opinion?

TIM POWERS: Well continuing Marty's Godfather analogy, hopefully she doesn't become Fredo. That wouldn't be a good outcome for anybody. Got to inject some humour here of course, Piya. She can she can change the channel as Susan has suggested the one person who can end this story right now, kill it in its tracks, is Jodie Wilson-Raybould to say what the Globe is reporting is wrong. It is not accurate. What is fascinating for me, and Susan will have seen this in previous liberal administrations, now for the first time through this story we see some strife in the Liberal Cabinet, because what was said at the time of Wilson Rachel's demotion - and it was a demotion - was that she was difficult to deal with. So what does that now mean. This is really problematic for the government, not that it's going to take them down one day. That never happens in stories like this, but it will continue as Susan suggests. I just ran in to one of the reporters who wrote this story coming into the CBC this morning, to quote him, he said "this has just scratched the surface". That is something I would be concerned about if I am in the PMO.

PC: Okay, Susan, we'll talk more about the politics and the partisanship about all this in just a bit. But at the heart of these allegations is something called deferred prosecution agreement. So just briefly tell me what is that?

SUSAN DELACOURT: Oh it's, okay listeners, Stay with us. It's an incredibly complicated thing and was inserted into the last budget. It is basically a plea deal for corporations. And if you were a corporation facing prosecution for something big that former employees may have done or the corporation as a whole, it is a way of ensuring that you can make a plea deal that doesn't see your company as a whole and the employees suffer. That's the idea behind it. So SNC Lavalin has almost 9000 employees in Canada, many of them in Quebec and I guess the idea would be that you make a plea deal with the government to pay for a past or an ongoing, in this case corruption case involving complicated bribery charges and corruption charges with Libya - again stay with us, listeners - SNC Lavalin I think their argument is can we have this deferred prosecution agreement, which is now legal in Canada, that allows us to pay for our sins but not face a 10 year ban on government contracts. It's funny. This week began with the prime minister announcing in little video he was going to be talking about infrastructure a lot this month. And I dont think this is what he has in mind. SNC Lavalin is a big recipient of government contracts to do infrastructure. Infrastructure is a huge liberal government promise. It was going to be a centre piece of the budget and this has put a whole new light on that video.

PC: And a big donor to the Liberal Party as well.

SUSAN DELACOURT: Hugely and also controversially and possibly criminally. They were found guilty of also illegal donations to and a lot of them to the Liberal Party over the last decade.

PC: You did very well. Your explanation of deferred prosecutions. You did really well.

SUSAN DELACOURT: Sorry.

PC: Tim Powers, now that we understand what they are, are deferred prosecution agreements necessarily a bad way for a government to handle corruption cases?

TIM POWERS: Not necessarily if they achieve a savings of the tax payers, they protect employees and ultimately have some benefit to the broader Canadian public. I don't think that is an issue at all. Again, the challenge here of course would be how will this suggestion, direction, or whatever you want to use to describe it was made to the government and whether was appropriate that it was done. So as a tool not a problem but the process and the way that things were apparently done, according to The Globe and Mail, are the reasons for concern here.

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: The thing in there I think is important to say it's not something you should necessarily be lobbying for. In the States anyway deferred prosecution agreements are used and a lot of cases where you almost give amnesties in return. It's not quite amnesty, but a lesser sentence in return for further info. In the case of SNC Lavalin, we know all this stuff. Pierre Duhaime, the ex-CEO was found guilty recently. The stuff that happened in Libya is all well known. SNC Lavalin got a 10 year ban from bidding on contracts by the World Bank in 2013. This stuff is already out there. There``s not a whole lot more that we necessarily can glean from the SNC Lavalin by giving them one of these deferred prosecution agreements. And so it seems a little bit untoward for them to even ask for.

TIM POWERS: Can I just pick up on that point because I think it’s really essential. So there is an issue of political judgment here. Everything Marty's just articulated is well known in the Canadian public political class and should be particularly well known in the prime minister's office. So the fact that if they did in fact venture to suggest imply direct again choose your adjective to the justice minister to in turn have heard then talk to the Director of Public Prosecutions, that shows abhorrent political judgment because this is what could happen. This is the kind of story that rocks governments, doesn't necessary defeat them but it rocks them.

PC: Okay but, Susan, there are some people who are going to say, look, there is a plausible scenario where the PMO could be in touch with the attorney general about an ongoing case and it would be above board. Do you buy that as a plausible situation?

SUSAN DELACOURT: Again I am being really careful about this because this is a very fraught issue. What we are seeing- And today in The Globe and Mail it again says that Jody Wilson-Raybould talked to the prime minister's principal secretary, Gerald Butts, a name very familiar to everyone, and that he told her to go and talk to the Privy Council clerk. What happened in that little exchange is crucial to this story today and that's what we were going to be asking, I would imagine, is who brought up what, in what context, and did it amount to political interference, political guidance, or merely political negligence. Again so much of this story remains a big blank and that is only worsening the government's troubles right now. I think as Tim and Marty have said, somebody has to say something about what happened here because this is only going to escalate in the absence of that.

PC: Marty Patriquin, you spoke of Quebec and I'll get back to you about the larger implications in that province in a sec. But Tim Powers, how do you think the rest of the country will see this issue, especially if the narrative becomes 'a Quebec company getting political favoritism from another liberal government'?

TIM POWERS: That won't go over well. I think it's certainly shaping up as some are certainly driving an area of that where the other element of the narrative the opposition of course you're trying to jump on and it's one that any government is vulnerable to. But the Liberal governments are particularly acutely close to and that is if the actions of a government look to be in the self-interest of the government its friends then its members, that's a problem. So I would suspect those two narratives will be ones that will play out and have different impacts across the country.

PC: Marty Patriquin, this story will unfold likely in dribs and drabs. Yesterday, most people say yesterday is just the start. Yesterday's outcome will come out. Does this scandal have the potential to become as politically damaging as the Quebec sponsorship scandal was under John Chrétien and Paul Martin?

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: I think it's a little too early to say that. Again, you know if indeed we're just scratching the surface then possibly. But you know again possibly not. Were that to happen though, it is devastating for all the Liberal Party of Canada. Before the Liberals did very well in the province in 2015, got the majority of seats in here in Quebec. They were basically in purgatory for 10 years. The word liberal was sort of seen as a four letter word and the idea that they would ever come back and you know take victory from with the help of Quebec which was unheard of and it was all because of that the sponsorship scandal. These things are felt almost viscerally because you're hitting on a lot of all tropes that people sort of say about Quebec, that it's backward, that it's completely corrupt, that it benefits from favoritism from governments of all stripes that kind of thing. So for that reason it's almost like an identity issue beyond politics.

PC: This morning NDP leader Jagmeet Singh is calling on the PM to ask the federal ethics commissioner to investigate this. Susan is that going to happen?

SUSAN DELACOURT: I think it's going to be a little higher than an ethics examination. I think you know there are also calls for a commission of inquiry. I think the initial inquiry today is going to be journalistic and the government has a chance to say a little bit more about what's going on but I agree with Martin. Well there is a question mark on whether it has the potential to do the same damage as the sponsorship scandal. It does remind people of it and that's not a good thing. It also feeds in to some other things that have been bubbling around this government overly controlling PMO as Tim said. Justin Trudeau actually used to promise that he was going to unravel when his father started. The idea of how they're treating significant constituencies in this country; women, indigenous people. Quebec, is Alberta going to be more angered by this because it looks like favoritism. There are past echoes in this and there are present echoes in this of Liberal governments past and the current problems here.

PC: And all this with eight months to go, about eight months till the next federal election.

SUSAN DELACOURT: Fine year it's going to be, eh?

PC: I only got about four minutes left with the three of you, but I want to shift gears but stick with the NDP because the federal party is facing its own challenges and leader Jagmeet Singh trying to win a seat in Burnaby South in the by-election in just a little over a more than two weeks. Tim Powers at this point what do his prospects look like?

TIM POWERS: Well he might be able to take the intravenous out of his arm now because he was leading a leader assisted dying pack for the NDP as it related to their future. In B.C. he's probably going to win, Piya, given the trouble the Liberals have had there with one candidate having to step down for racist type comments. So he's probably going to win and that will help him. If he loses he's in great trouble. In Quebec, as Marty would know better than I, it would appear all of the gains that were achieved and maintained, those that were maintained around 20 plus seats now, 20 seats in 2015, are in jeopardy now. This may change. Again it's way too early to predict that, but Jagmeet Singh may have also been given a lifeline by this scandal.

PC: Okay Martin Patriquin, let's talk about that because the NDP are also facing a tough fight and Tom Mulcair is all deriding in Outremont, in another by election in Quebec. How is that all going? Is there a discontent?

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: There is there is discontent certainly with the NDP in general. I would venture to say that Outremont that has been liberal up until 2007 when Tom Mulcair won, was literally liberal its entire existence. And you know to read into by elections with the usual caveats you know they don't mean necessarily anything. It's just sort of the moment. It doesn't necessarily mean that is going to happen at election. But that aside, you know Mulcair came in in 2007 and won, where everybody was very very surprised and ushered in this sort of orange wave that happened in 2011. I don't see the NDP winning this election. the Liberal candidate there is actually very very popular, took some of Mulcair's support away in the last in 2015. So you're almost going to see a shift of that narrative like if the Liberal candidate wins - and again I'm not saying that's 100 percent but it looks like she will - it'll be a situation whereby it's sort of like looks like an almost like the end of a reign of the NDP in the province. Just quickly, the other problem too of course is Jagmeet Singh. He is not necessarily known very well in this province and I hate to put too fine a point on it, but he is a brown guy wearing conspicuous religious headgear.

PC: It's called turban.

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: I realize that but that's not necessarily how the Quebec government would deem it. And you know it's an identity issue here and I hate to say it but it is a problem.

PC: Okay, Susan, if Jagmeet Singh does get into the house, so he takes his seat in Parliament could that change his fortunes? I mean him being at question period and being in the house and getting more attention that way, could that turn his fortunes around in the party?

SUSAN DELACOURT: I don't believe elections are won in the House of Commons, myself, even though I work here. I believe that if that was the case Tom Mulcair would be prime minister right now. I wonder if Jagmeet Singh is wondering if he really wants to win. You only have to listen to what Tom Mulcair has been saying on another network. In in his new role as a political commentator, every week he's seeing something to dis his successor. The knives are going to be out for Jagmeet Singh if he loses in Burnaby. He's predicting that the Greens are going to do well. He certainly doesn't seem to be predicting that the NDP is going to do well in his old seat. So for an indication of the trouble Jagmeet Singh is in in future, even if he does win in Burnaby, I think we only have to look at the past and the past leader.

PC: Okay we'll leave it there. There's eight months of unofficial campaign to go. We will talk to all three of you again. Thank you.

SUSAN DELACOURT: Thank you.

MARTIN PATRIQUIN: Thank you, Piya.

TIM POWERS: Thank you Piya.

PC: Tim Powers is a former Conservative party adviser and commentator and now vice chairman of Summa Strategies. Susan Delacourt is the national candidate in Ottawa Bureau Chief for The Toronto Star. They are both in Ottawa. Martin Patriquin is a columnist for Politics and the Montreal Gazette. He was in our Montreal studio. If you want to weigh in on the politics of this the day or yesterday or the ones in the future, do so. Get in touch with The Current hour on Twitter @TheCurrentCBC, on facebook.com/cbcthecurrent, or you can e-mail us your feedback by going to the Web site cbc.ca/thecurrent. Once you're there click on the Contact Us link. All right. Coming up on this Friday edition of The Current I'll be speaking with doctors without borders field co-ordinator who's working to fight the resurgent Ebola epidemic in the Democratic Republic of Congo. I'm Piya Chattopadhyay. This is the Friday edition of The Current and we're back in just a bit.

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'Whack-a-mole' Ebola outbreak could morph from epidemic to endemic, says expert

Guests: Karen Huster, Laurie Garrett

PC: I am Piya Chattopadhyay and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current issue.

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[Translated] I had intense pains, a very high fever and fatigue. I also had pain throughout my body. I thought I had malaria or typhoid. So I went to get some medicine at the pharmacy. I was still feeling sick after two days.

PC: That is a survivor of the worst Ebola outbreak ever documented in the DRC the Democratic Republic of Congo describing her initial symptoms. First declared last August, there have been more than 790 reported cases of Ebola. Nearly 500 people have died. Now an international group of public health experts writing in The Lancet are calling on the World Health Organization to consider declaring the outbreak an international public health emergency. Karin Huster is a field coordinator with MSF Medicins Sans Frontiers or Doctors Without Borders. She has been working to fight the epidemic in the DRC and has seen its effects up close. We have reached Karin Huster in Seattle, Washington. Hello.

KARIN HUSTER: Good morning.

PC: I want to start with the story of one baby suspected to have Ebola brought in to your care by the child's mother. What happened to this baby?

KARIN HUSTER: Yeah this was a pretty sad story. The baby was brought to our transit center where we would test the baby's blood twice to see whether he was infected. And fortunately the baby arrived too late and he died before we were able to do anything.

PC: So if he had arrived earlier there was a chance that you could have saved the baby.

KARIN HUSTER: That's right. I mean just with any illness really the earlier you come to see a health practitioner the more chances you have and definitely for Ebola it's true. If you come at the beginning of the symptoms, if the Mom had known or if she hadn't been afraid, we don't know. But then they would have come when the signs and the symptoms were much lighter and we would be able to give some of the experimental treatments, maybe, if the baby did have Ebola, better supportive measures. In that case, when by the time the doctors and nurses came in the triage area the baby had died.

PC: I want to talk more about the treatments experimental ones you just mentioned just to bit. But let me step back with you for just a moment. What does this Ebola outbreak in DRC look like now? Were more than six months in?

KARIN HUSTER: That's right. It's an epidemic that's not under control yet. It's still a pretty concerning situation because you have a geographic spread that's a little bit unpredictable. So it's in the northeast of the country. That region of the DRC is a pretty volatile. Some other areas where the outbreak are not places the teams can go.

PC: From where you stand, would you call it an emergency?

KARIN HUSTER: Well when you start to use these words that means that you might have some bigger guns you're going to be using to intervene. So maybe you know, more money is being unblocked, maybe more stuff is allowed to come in. So there are a lot of things that can come when you declare a public health emergency. That's going to be up to me to decide.

PC: When we use the word emergency colloquially, does it mean that definition for you?

KARIN HUSTER: You know Ebola is always an emergency because it is so tricky to contain. So for me it's never something that we can watch and wait. The trust that the community needs to have in people who come and respond is there and that's been one of the key things that we need to continue to work on harder and harder.

PC: Where does that lack of trust come from?

PC: It's a natural thing. If you are the mother of a child who is sick and you obviously want to get care, but if you know that he is going to be labelled then maybe having Ebola, and you know the treatment center is around many people come out in coffins, or you hear rumours of people being put in plastic bags before they die, you're going to hesitate before you bring in your child. Worse, you know also that in these places families are now allowed to come inside with their children or with their loved ones. And so you're really going to think twice before you bring your family to be taken care of. So there are a lot of things like that make it so that people are scared and don't want to come in.

PC: You know it's so interesting that you say that because one of the differences between the 2014 outbreak and this one is that there have been medical advancements, at least experimental ones, in trying to not only vaccinate against Ebola - like that I believe that vaccine is Canadian made - and there have been a number of experimental medical treatments. But you're saying it's the same thing that people are just so scared; the stigma, the trust, that's still at play here.

KARIN HUSTER: That's exactly right. And I think if we continue are comparing and contrasting of two epidemics, for this one we have a vaccine as you said, that we are for the first time able to use in an active outbreak. The vaccine seems definitely to have put some limits as to the number of people that would be infected. We don't know for sure. It's an experimental vaccine and we still need to look at the data you know after we compile it, but were doing these ring vaccinations. So we vaccinated the contacts of a case and then the contacts of the contacts of a case. So we're really trying to have this safety ring around cases so that eventually infections cannot spread. And then as you mentioned we have four or a new experimental treatments at our disposition so most patients will be able to get one of the four treatments.

PC: So given that there are medical advancements this time around, and you pit that against the same kind of traditional distrust, mistrust, fear and all of those things. Do you sympathize with them at all? Do you do you see where regular people are coming from, not wanting to come in and get help?

KARIN HUSTER: Yes I do. You know treatments vaccinations are a fantastic tool to have but they are not the end all be all, because if I don't have your trust you will not come to see me or you will come to see me too late. But as well you know something that's important is we need to really revisit how we do things. So for example, not allowing families to come inside Ebola treatment unit is something that really has an impact. I think if I have a child that's very sick and I have to separate myself from my child, and I know that he may be at risk of dying. I would not want to have him inside all by himself. So I definitely would recommend that we take a hard look at what is it that we can do to bring families inside ETU, you know under certain conditions, with a certain level of training you know. But that's not an impossibility. We need to really be better at that.

PC: There were so many powerful images that came out of the last break and one of them I think that people remember clearly is seeing are the medical professionals, people like you that went in, and also local medical professionals, who were coming out of centers in full precautionary clothing. Yellow suits with the masks. I want to talk to you a little bit about that because at the time it was one of the challenges of treating Ebola. Once you have a patient in, care if you get them in care, physically what is it like to do this work?

KAREN HUSTER: It's a full impermeable plastic suit. It's two pairs of gloves. It's a pair of plastic boots. It's a mask. It's goggles. And you know after 15-20 minutes you think you're in a sauna. Some people sweat more than others. And by the end of it they might have a bunch of water in their boots. It's pretty incredible how much you use sweat. So one of the things that we've actually been doing to help is we're employing survivor. Ebola survivors have this immunity now to the disease and so they are able to be the link and provide the continuity of cure that is so important with patients, because they're able to work with us in the Ebola treatment unit but stay much longer because they don't have to have that level of protective gear. And they have been so crucial to help the families understand what it is that they're going through or might be going through. They are the ones who understand what Ebola feels like because they've had it. I think they provide the companionship that is so lacking in the treatment centres. So often children are all alone, people are alone in the rooms. It's not easy.

PC: And I guess they also provide some hope, right? Like I survived it, maybe you can too.

KARIN HUSTER: That's exactly right. That's probably maybe the most important message that they can pass to the people they are taking care of inside.

PC: What hope do you have that those kinds of things, those kinds of changes could help stanch the spread of Ebola in this epidemic and potential epidemics to come?

KARIN HUSTER: Yeah I think probably potential epidemics to come will be mostly where this could be applicable because it takes time to review protocols that are in place to make sure that things you know will be done in a safe way. I mean the last thing we want is for a family member to be infected. It is so important for people to retain their dignity. So we continue to push these designs to to be able to include families because we understand the importance of maintaining those relationships through the year.

PC: Karin Huster, it's been very good to talk to you thank you very very much.

KARIN HUSTER: You're very welcome.

PC: Karen Huster is a field coordinator with Doctors Without Borders and a clinical instructor in the Department of Global Health at the University of Washington in Seattle, Washington. Our next guest worries about what will happen if the Ebola epidemic continues to spread. Laurie Garrett is a former senior fellow for Global Health at the Council on Foreign Relations and she is the author of Ebola: Story of an Outbreak. It is about the 1995 outbreak in the Democratic Republic of Congo, then called Zaire. Now she warns that this outbreak could morph from epidemic to endemic. We reached Laurie Garrett in New York City. Hello.

LAURIE GARRETT: Hi, how are you doing?

PC: I'm okay. What, to you, are the big warning signs that this Ebola epidemic in DRC could become entrenched, in other words essentially permanent?

LAURIE GARRETT: There are several things. The one from the epidemiology point of view, meaning scientifically based concern, is that consistently since this epidemic first popped up around August 1st of 2018 he has had a kind of whack a mole effect, like a game. Technically there is an outbreak over here and then a hundred miles where there is an outbreak there, and then 10 miles into the rainforest there is one here. Often it's impossible to figure out how they're connected. That means that it's almost impossible to take control of this outbreak because you don't have a consistent pattern that makes any sense. Now I would argue there but they address it because of the military situation. I think this is the most important point Karen was telling you about the tremendous difficulty clinically but never before in the history of this virus had to deal with it in the context of a very low military conflict, involving 132 different armed organizations, most of them extremely well financed because of a compound found readily in the soil in this region. This is a compound locally referred to as coltan. And when combined in the proper processing, these turn out to be the key to cell phones that don't explode.

PC: As you say there are many warring factions. This has been ongoing and longstanding. How is that impacting the ability of medical teams to get to patients, to get to people in that area?

LAURIE GARRETT: You can't you can drive down a road without negotiating a right of passage with yet another armed group. Health care workers are getting attacked. There have been attacks that range from getting rocks thrown actually all the way to gunfire and clinics set on fire. And if it spreads - as it seems to be doing now - moving southwards, I think we will have an endemic problem. It will persist. It will spread into Uganda and Rwanda and of course we're deeply concerned about South Sudan where even the brave folks from MSF, like [unintelligible] have continuously called out of South Sudan because of the security threat.

PC: Let me ask you this. In DRC right now, are there whole areas where Ebola is going essentially untreated?

LAURIE GARRETT: Yes. First of all we don't have any idea what the Ebola rates are with the armed forces. They won't allow themselves to be tested. We do know that two soldiers for the national army died of Ebola in the last month. And it's almost I think a given that one of the reasons we have this wack a mole problem I was referring to - of outbreaks popping up unexpectedly all over the place - is because it involves the armed [unintelligible] and they are on the move. When they get sick they don't seek care from the international responders and they probably simply die arm. The other problem is that there have been situations where warfare broke out and the entire Ebola operation in that given location comes to halt.

PC: The other thing compounding all of this is sexual assault. We know that rape as a weapon of war, is enormous problem in DRC. Can Ebola be sexually transmitted?

LAURIE GARRETT: Yes. We now know that the virus can actually be sexually transmitted by an Ebola survivor for at least 18 months after he’s been cured.

PC: Do you think this is an international public health emergency?

LAURIE GARRETT: Well first of all I think that the government of the Democratic Republic has really embraced it as a national emergency. They held the National election and the way they dealt with this entire epidemic was to say we are disenfranchising 1.5 Million voters in the Ebola hit region because we don't want them to possibly contaminate each other at the polls. But that was bogus. Everybody there knew because it's a stronghold of support for the opposition. Ah so we have no legitimate government that really could do the right thing and stop all the conflict. The second part of your question is do we do as ultimately was done in 2014, declare officially by WHO a public health emergency or intra national concern? And if that were done would it make a difference. I would argue that for the moment on the ground it might not, as long as it remains confined to the Democratic Republic of Congo. But if cases are spread inside Uganda, Rwanda or South Sudan, I don't think we have any choice.

PC: If this spread does not contained and if as you warn, Ebola becomes endemic to the region. What does that mean for the future of DRC?

LAURIE GARRETT: I think it will be deeply destabilizing. You know this whole region, not only DRC northeast, but all of its immediate border crossed areas, these are fairly governed. And if you had to work the kind of tier that I have witnessed myself repeatedly on the ground that Ebola evokes, and reach a point where it's known to the population that this isn't just bad. It's now out of control. Then I think all bets are off. And let me just tell you, where we are right now I've gone and double checked what the numbers in 2040 at the seven month point, before it just suddenly exploded and went from slowly increasing over a period of more than six months, and then suddenly started to double in size every two weeks. Guess what that figure was? 880. Where are we now in the DRC? 800. So were just, right there at this tipping point. And the irony is, as Karen was saying, now we have the tools of the trade. We have an effective vaccine. Now we have much greater professional expertise, and we even have some experimental treatments that show prisoners, and we have a new WHO that's much more proactive than the prior WHO leadership was. And still we're losing the fight and we're losing the fight because it's in a battlefield.

PC: What if anything offers you hope?

LAURIE GARRETT: There are some steps that could be taken right now by your government in Canada, by my government in the United States. The first is we have a United Nations Security Council resolution condemning the ongoing fighting and the illegal conflict minerals tree. That resolution led to certain laws that are supposed to are empower the federal government to come down hard on any cellphone manufacturers that are known to have used conflict minerals. Well one cellphone manufacturer after another has claimed that they're doing the right thing. But that Coltan is getting sold and it's ending up in your phones. So one key step is to really ramp up pressure on the Chinese cellphone manufacturers so that we destroy this trade that is funding this conflict. That's step one. Step two, I think we will have to reconvene the WHO emergency committee and consider what precisely should be the conditions that prompt declaring an international emergency. Then I think we have to create truth driven, safe quarters of movement and that's going to be the next big challenge.

PC: Laurie Garrett, I appreciate your time today thank you very much.

LAURIE GARRETT: Thank you.

PC: Laurie Garrett is a former senior fellow for Global Health at the Council on Foreign Relations and she is the author of Ebola: Story of an Outbreak. We reached her in New York City.

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Refugee detained on Manus Island wins $95K literary prize for book written on WhatsApp

PC: I'm Piya Chattopadhyay and you are listening to the Friday edition of The Current. Behrouz Boochani is a detained. Iranian Kurdish asylum seeker. He is also a writer and for the past six years he's been behind the walls of an Australian detention center on Manus island in Papua New Guinea. And he's found a way to write a book in that time, one text message at a time last week that book, No Friend but the Mountains, was honoured in a big way. It was awarded Australia's richest literary prize, the Victorian Premier's prize for literature. Of course Behrouz Boochani could not be either but his translator who received all those text messages was there on his behalf. Omid Tofighian tells us their story.

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[Music]

OMID: The Kurds have any friends other than the mountains. Horrified mothers, mothers wrapped their children from the instincts of motherhood and escaped to the mountains. Young girls were searching for their dreams. My name is Omid Tofighian. I'm the translator of No Friend but the Mountains, Writing from Manus Prison written by Behrouz Boochani.

[Music]

OMID: Behrouz and I met right at the beginning of 2016 and I came across Behrouz's article, an article he had published in The Guardian. And I thought this is absolutely amazing. I've never read anything like this especially since the fact that it was coming from inside the prison. So I thought at the very least I have to contact him and congratulate him and tell him that I'm here if you need me in any way. So I sent him a message on Facebook and basically our relationship in terms of translation started from there. The story begins in Indonesia where Behrouz and other refugees are moving towards the shore, about to board the boat destined for Australia. And that boat eventually was rescued by a British tanker and then they were picked up by the Australian Navy and taken to Christmas Island, and then their example to Manus Island. And then the rest of the book from there is just about all of the experiences, the different narratives, different characters, different thoughts that occur on Manus Island.

[Music]

OMID: Killing time involves a simple trip; reach out and hold another sunset. Another one of the thousand Calamanasian sunsets, then reach out and hold another night. Another one of the dark island nights. A futile cycle. Night and day revolving under the shade of [unintelligible] tree.

[Music]

OMID: Basically, Behrouz is trying to evoke the feeling of systematic torture. He thinks that this book is the most powerful way he has found to communicate what he means by systematic torture, and to bring people into that whole system and to understand what everyone is going through.

[Music]

OMID: Behrouz fled Iran because of state sanctioned persecution. The situation there was intolerable. It became intolerable and there's no way he could have stayed. So essentially the Kurdish people have been denied many rights in Iran for a very long time. In the present Behrouz has never allowed the prison structure, the manufactured machinery or the accommodation, the architecture, or even the presence of the guards, he's never let them take complete control over him. He actually uses his storytelling, his creativity and his philosophical thinking to challenge that and to set himself free in terms of his own wellbeing, in his own frame of mind.

[Music]

OMID: I told Behrouz from the very beginning he is certainly going to win one of the awards.

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VOICE: The winner of the prize for non-fiction is: No Friend but the Mountains, Writing from Manus Prison by Behrouz Boochani.

[Cheers]

OMID: When I went up to accept the award obviously we contacted Behrouz, of course using whatsapp, and I put my phone up against the microphone so that he could express his gratitude and his happiness.

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BEHROUZ: When I arrived at Christmas Island six years ago an immigration official called me into the office and told me that they were going to exile me to Manus Island, a place in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. I told them that I'm a writer. That same person just laughed at me and ordered the guards to exile me to Manus. I kept this image in my mind for years, even while I was writing my novel. Even right now as I am writing this acceptance speech. When I arrived in Manus I created another image for myself. I imagined a novelist in a remote prison. This image always helped me uphold my dignity and keep my identity, as a human being. In fact I created this image in opposition to the image created by the system. After years of struggling against a system that has completely ignored our individual identities, I am happy that we have arrived at this moment.

OMID: We are very realistic and know that this award on its own, this book on its own is not going to change the system. What we do hope is that now that we have identified an opening, a split here in the system, a crack, we hope that we are all able to work together, all different groups who are committed to freedom and justice and empowering displaced and exiled people. So we're looking at this particular example, the book and the award, we're looking at it as a new opening, a new way to do politics and a new way to reorganize and collaborate.

PC: That is Omid Tofighian who translated Behrouz Boochani's No Friend but the Mountains: Writing from Manus Prison. The book - which was composed one text message at a time - is the winner of a 2019 Victorian Premier's Literary Prize that is given out in Australia. Well that is The Current for this Friday's. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. Record producer David Foster is on the show ahead of being honoured for his humanitarian work at this year's Juno Awards. Remember you can take The Current with you on the go by going to the CBC Radio app. It lets you browse through past episodes of our show and start listening in just a few seconds. And remember you can catch me in my regular gig Out In The Open, Sundays at noon here on CBC Radio One. I am Piya Chattopadhyay. Thank you for letting us hear you're here on the Friday edition of The Current.

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