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The Current Transcript for February 4, 2019

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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VOICE: We are here to say, enough is enough, Maduro. You have to go. And the people are starving.

[Group chants] No more dictatorship.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Protesters in Ottawa and Toronto are voicing support for Juan Guaido this weekend, the man Canada now backs a legitimate leader of Venezuela. Similar scenes played out in Montreal, Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton, Fort McMurray and Vancouver, but those with ties to Venezuela in Canada, do not speak in unison. Their voices, their views and voices mirror the polarized politics of Venezuela, where dueling protests also dominated the weekend. As Canada hosts a crucial meeting of the Lima Group of surrounding nations that also reject Maduro for Guaido. We're asking how or if they will help find common ground. That's in a moment. And then to Afghanistan, a place where they know all about the consequences of polarized politics. There are now great expectations over a chance for peace with the Taliban, but women who have fought hard for basic rights are wary.

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VOICE: Remembering the nightmares of the past, we think what will happen to the future generation? Are we going back to the same old situation as before?

AMT: Hear them in half an hour and in one hour.

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VOICE: The men are rowing, the men are rowing. The harpooner on the front has raised his harpoon, can the rowers bring him close enough to catch this whale?

AMT: We follow Doug Bock Clark to a little known Indonesian island where he was accepted by and allowed to live with the Lamalerans, one of the last subsistence whaling communities in the world, caught between their rich Indigenous culture and modern Indonesia. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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Canada and allies 'placing a bet' that Maduro supporters will desert him under pressure

Guests: Rebecca Sarfatti, Nino Pagliccia, Nicolas Saldias

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Maduro has created an economic, political and humanitarian crisis. Millions of Venezuelans have been left with no access to doctors or medicine and are scrambling for food. In recent years, 3 million people have fled Venezuela and according to the UN, that number could rise to more than 5 million by the end of this year. This crisis poses huge security, humanitarian and migration challenges for our entire hemisphere.

AMT: Well that's Canada's Foreign Minister, Chrystia Freeland, weighing in on what has been a key foreign policy priority for Canada. Today in Ottawa, Canada hosts an emergency meeting on Venezuela with members of the Lima Group. That's a coalition of more than a dozen countries from across Latin America and the Caribbean notably without Mexico. Most of the members were quick to recognize Juan Guaido as the legitimate leader of Venezuela and called for Nicolas Maduro to step down as president. More European countries have added their recognition in the last 24 hours as well. It is the kind of coalition building diplomacy that might seem quintessentially Canadian. There are concerns about whether this is the right thing to do and what influence Canada and a group of other middle and smaller powers can realistically have on Venezuela's future, especially when the U.S. and Russia are on opposite sides of this fast moving geopolitical conflict. We're asking those questions today, but first I want to hear from members of the Venezuelan diaspora in Canada with very different views. Rebecca Sarfatti is with the Canada Venezuela Democracy Forum. She's with me in our Toronto studio. Hi.

REBECCA SARFATTI: Hi. Good morning.

AMT: You were one of the organizers of the demonstrations that went across the country on the weekend.

RS: Yes we were supporting the people of each city to manage to demonstrate in a sound way and with a proper and have the right message. And everywhere there was somebody outside, even in Edmonton there was like under -30, they were outside demonstrating.

AMT: What do you think then of how the Canadian governments has handled the situation in Venezuela so far?

RS: First of all, I have to say as a Venezuelan-Canadian, I'm extremely proud of the stand that Canada has taken in leadership for the Venezuelan situation. I feel and I'm strong on this that Canada has put their Canadian values to the front, which are democracy and human rights before any other political mumbo jumbo. So it's amazing and I feel so proud to be here and be part of it that Canada has been so strong in their speech, so sound in their speech and taking the leadership about it.

AMT: There are people who worry that Canada has gone too far in supporting Juan Guaido.

RS: I don't feel that again and I have to stress this out like a million time and I will do it every time I have a mic in front of me. It's about Canadian values. It's about humanity. This is not about right or left or this political tendency or that any politician that would took the place of Guaido, they have to support it because you're not supporting a government at this point. You're supporting a nation, you're supporting a nation's future and rights to be free and have a healthy society and a productive society and kids should die because a government wants to impose anything. Any government.

AMT: Well what do you say to those who say what's happening is a U.S. led coup?

RS: I will say first of all, we have to start to clarify that it's not a coup because Venezuelan constitution establishes the way it should work when there is a gap in the chair. So basically Guaido has taken his duty as a president of the national elected assembly to do the things the concept are clearly stated in our constitution. So this speech about the coup, I know it could be like a propaganda, something that's spreading out, people want it to look like that because the US is also involved. It's not the only one leading the situation. We're talking about Canada, the big countries. The free world is understanding the struggle of the Venezuelans finally and they're against it. So they're putting their values to the front. It's not you know it's not about politics anymore.

AMT: Let's talk a little bit more about what's going on inside. What are you hearing from your own family and friends?

RS: Well I can talk from my family. My mom still lives in Caracas and I take her always as an example because she has much more benefits than anybody else probably because I live in Canada. I can help her out. She lives in her own house. She doesn't have to mobilize to go outside to you know like to waste money on clothing or whatever. She can stay in her house and she's okay and even her it's going through the struggle. Like talking about, she hasn't seen meat in so much long time. So now it's about rice and beans in a house where she used to have like a proper meal. So I can talk as a country and I can talk at a personal level. She needs some type of puffers for the asthma. She cannot find them. We have to go to Spain, we have to go to Costa Rica, whoever we have a family member that can help her out to send monthly asthma puffers. So I cannot even picture how it goes with people in the outskirts or people who have less access to families abroad.

AMT: What do you hope to come out of this Lima group meeting today then?

RS: It is very important to understand that at this point the first thing we need to solve is the humanitarian crisis. So set aside the political situation that we have to solve, the most important part is to be able to get the humanitarian aid inside Venezuela, today, tomorrow, as soon as possible. So and I'm confident that this is one of the biggest subjects in the discussion. I am aware that in the frame of the Lima Group there's meetings with community organizations to see how they're going to canalize the actual delivery of the humanitarian aid because this is a very big word, but how are we going to do this? Will they let us in with humanitarian aid? That's very important.

AMT: And we're about to speak to someone who supports Mr. Maduro briefly. What's it going to take to bridge that divide?

RS: Yeah it's definitely the most important part because again, take the politics aside, the important part here is this there's people dying, there's people suffering baby. There's babies bellies grunching. So it's well beyond any political subject. It's humanity we're talking about. So for me and I'm pretty sure for all Venezuelans, number one discussion and has to be solved today, tomorrow, is the humanitarian aid.

AMT: Okay Rebecca, we have to leave it there. Thank you for coming in. That is Rebecca Sarfatti, she is with the Canada Venezuela Democracy Forum. She's with me in our Toronto studio. Nino Pagliccia, a freelance writer and a retired researcher at the University of British Columbia. He's a Venezuelan-Canadian. He still holds citizenship in Venezuela and he joins me from Vancouver. Hi.

NINO PAGLICCIA: Hi Anna Maria.

AMT: What do you think from what you just heard from Rebecca Sarfatti?

NP: Wow, there's a lot to think about. Maybe it starts from her first comment. First of all, I say hello to her from Vancouver. I think that you know when we speak about Canadian values, certainly I would agree with that. There's no problem in you know in appreciating what Canada's trying to do in the world generally speaking. But my question is that would the intervention in other countries as in the form that Canadian government is doing now, would that fall into the category of Canadian values. I think first of all that goes against international law altogether. So one has to be very careful in judging the position that the Canadian government is taking in this.

AMT: OK, so let me ask you more specifically, why do you still support President Maduro?

NP: Why? Because he's been elected. He's been elected in democratic election. He received 6.2 votes, 67.8 per cent of the votes. That's a clear, clear victory, that you know it's probably more than in any other place. So I don't know why that should not be a legitimate victory and why Maduro should not be the president.

AMT: Well in fact a lot of countries do not recognize him as president. They say he has jailed his opponents and they say that vote was not legitimate. What do you say to the fact that, as my last guest said, basically the free nations are lining up behind Mr. Guaido.

NP: Well I mean the free nations, so China and Russia are not free nations, so that's the implication. Well sort of, that's an assumption. But the point is, whatever the government's saying, that's a true interference and a decision that should be made by Venezuelans. This is something like nobody would want anybody to come to Canada and you know tell us what we should do at the level of government.

AMT: But you know, three million people have fled Venezuela and there is a humanitarian crisis. President Maduro has been blamed for bringing this forward. Do you not hold him responsible for what you see happening?

NP: Well let's break that down. First of all, there is no humanitarian crisis in Venezuela. Humanitarian crisis is a very technical term that is used by United Nations and that has been denied even by independent operteurs. There is no humanitarian crisis in Venezuela. So claiming that, that's sort of out of place. The millions of Venezuelans who are leaving or who have left, well first of all, I think the number is a little a bit exaggerated?

AMT: How do you know that? How do you know it's exaggerated?

NP: How do you know it's three million?

AMT: Well because officials are saying it. So you're disputing officials they are actually getting information from the border. So you're saying that your information is, where is your information coming from?

NP: Well I mean officials are also saying that there's a humanitarian crisis. I just said, that's not the case. So I think we have to be careful in how we use the information because that's very damaging. And again, it does not reflect the reality. In order to solve the situation in Venezuela, first of all, you know there cannot be any misunderstanding or misinformation, but there has to be some kind of even Sarfatti said, you know there has to be a discussion. Maduro has called for dialogue, continuously calling for a dialogue, with Trump, with Juan Guaido, with anybody who wants to speak to him. The fact that there's a denial, even not accepting that. That's quite serious. Mexico and Uruguay are just offering the same thing. They're offering to do it so that every would participate including groups and Venezuelans.

AMT: OK, Mr. Pagliccia, we have to leave it there, but thank you for your view on this.

NP: Thank you.

AMT: Bye bye.

NP: Bye bye.

AMT: That is Nino Pagliccia. He is a Venezuelan-Canadian freelance writer and a retired researcher at the University of British Columbia. He joined us from Vancouver. My next guest says Canada can play a unique role in Venezuela's escalating crisis. Nicolas Saldias is a researcher with the Wilson Center and a PhD candidate in political science at the University of Toronto. He joins us from our Washington studio. Hello.

NICOLAS SALDIAS: Hi. How are you?

AMT: I'm curious to know first of all, you heard those two views. What are you thinking?

NS: Well I mean it's very clear that Venezuela is going through a unprecedented humanitarian refugee crisis right now. I mean the data is completely undeniable. You know for example it's estimated that 87 percent of the population is living in poverty. As you said, there are at least three million, at least three million people who have left the country. You know we have information that says up to 200,000 people are currently victims of human trafficking, including sexual exploitation, forced labor in Colombia and other parts of the region. And this is only growing because people are desperate to leave. The medical system is completely collapsed. This is recognized by the UN, the WHO,I mean the idea that Venezuela is not suffering a humanitarian crisis just has no empirical basis. I don't know how one can hold that position unfortunately.

AMT: So what do you think a middle power like Canada can do can play in this? Why do you think Canada is well positioned?

NS: Canada's well positioned because Canada is a soft power, right. It has a lot of soft power, meaning that it has a lot of moral and ethical position in the world. Canada has no apparent interest in Venezuela really. I mean Canada's economic and diplomatic relations with Venezuela have never been that tight, unlike the United States, which used to import now, about half a million barrels of oil a day. So Canada's interest in Venezuela is I think pretty clearly a political one that the Trudeau government realizes that what's happening in Venezuela is a humanitarian human rights and disaster and that the country is not living in a democracy. The notion that the 2018 election was free or fair is absurd. You know Venezuelan academic Javier Corrales has documented 117 instances of electoral manipulation or outright fraud since Chávez was elected in 1999. This is not a new phenomenon. What we're seeing in Venezuela now is just an escalation of the sheer brazenness of the regime to perpetuate itself in power.

AMT: Well let me ask you, in Canada there's real division on this. CUPE, the Canadian Union of Public Employees, has criticized the Trudeau government for backing Mr. Guaido, claiming Ottawa is interfering with the "democratic process and sovereignty of the Venezuelan people." The NDP leader Jagmeet Singh has accused the Liberals of blindly following the US, which also wants President Maduro removed from power. How do you respond to those criticisms?

NS: I would say that those at the best, those positions are misinformed. I read the CUPE statement and it was very unfortunate. I think it sounded very much like it came Telesur, which is a Venezuelan propaganda channel. The notion that the 2018 election was in any way free or fair, which then legitimizes Maduro's claim on power is just not true. No one, no democratic country, holds this position. The idea that where that Canada is just following behind the United States is absurd, when you consider that Canada was one of the founding members of the Lima Group in 2017, which came out against the coup d'etat, effectively against the Venezuelan congress, that the Maduro government did in 2017. You know I think Canadians have to realize that you know the origin of the Lima Group, which Canada is a part of, was a result like I stated, of Maduro losing in 2015, a majority in congress. He was unwilling to accept that and he with a Supreme Court that's packed by his supporters, just literally robbed it of power and then created a new institution, a new congress, without any constitutional reform to run the country. I mean it's absolutely absurd. I'm sorry to put it in such stark words, but it's very clear the Canadian position is absolutely correct that what's happening in Venezuela is a, Chrystia Freeland called it, a caricature of democracy.

AMT: So how confident should Canada be that Juan Guaido, if he is named interim president, would lead Venezuela back toward a legitimate governance?

NS: That's a good question. I think Canada has taken, along with Europe now, the EU, the United States and most countries of Latin America, have taken a strong position in favour of Guaido. In so doing, they're placing a bet that with a sufficient amount of diplomatic and now economic pressure, particularly from the United States, that the regime or members of the regime will defect, join Guaido, and start a transition towards democracy. The situation on the ground in Venezuela is very fluid. I don't think anybody really knows what's going on. The imposition of the oil sanctions by the United States on Venezuela are going to bite very hard, unfortunately will affect the Venezuelan people, but it will also affect the regime. And we don't know where this is going to end up. The hope is that you know people in the regime, maybe the lower echelons of the military, because I don't think the upper echelons are going to defect, will decide enough is enough. And this country, Venezuela, needs a new leadership and a new future because right now it's untenable. It's completely untenable as it stands.

AMT: Nicolas Saldias, thank you for your perspective on this.

NS: Thank you.

AMT: Nicolas Saldias is a researcher with the Wilson Center. He's a PhD candidate in political science at the University of Toronto. He's in our Washington studio.

AMT: Listen on tomorrow's edition of The Current. We'll be talking to the Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland. She'll join me to discuss Canada's response to the crisis in Venezuela, among other things. A couple of crises right now in the world in which Canada is embroiled and we'll talk about all of that tomorrow with Chrystia Freeland. Stay with us. The news is next and then talks last week between the U.S. and the Taliban have some people hoping for peace after 17 years of the latest war, but Afghan women fear what a deal might mean for them. Two prominent Afghan women's rights campaigners join me from Kabul, right after the news. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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'We don't want to simply sacrifice it:' Afghan women worry Taliban peace deal could set back women's rights

Guests: Orzala Nemet, Habiba Sarabi

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

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AMT: Still to come, the people called the Lamalerans are living in a remote Indonesian island and they're considered by anthropologists to be among the most generous societies in the world. They rely on whales for their food. One successful hunt can feed everyone for weeks, but modern life is threatening their way of life and so is the global push against whaling. We've got their story in half an hour. But first, what peace with the Taliban might mean for Afghan women.

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VOICE: Our commitment is to provide peace and to prevent any possible disaster, but there are values that are not disputable, such as national unity, national sovereignty, territorial integrity and a strong central government.

AMT: Well that's the president of Afghanistan, Ashraf Ghani, laying down his non-negotiables for peace with the Taliban. The U.S. wrapped up some historic talks with the Taliban in Qatar last week, but there's something you didn't hear in that clip, the entrenchment of women's rights was not one of the key negotiating points and that worries many women in Afghanistan who have lived under Taliban rule in the past. Joining me are two women who know what that's like and who have dedicated their lives to fighting for Afghan women's rights. Habiba Sarabi is the former governor of Bamiyan province. She was Afghanistan's first female governor. She's currently the deputy chair to the High Peace Council and the senior adviser on women to the chief executive of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. And Orzala Nemat is the director of the Afghanistan Research and Evaluation Unit, which is an independent research institute based in Kabul. And Kabul is where we have reached them both. Hello.

ORZALA NEMAT: Hello to you, Anna Maria.

HABIBA SARABI: Hello Anna Maria.

AMT: Orzala Nemat, I want to begin with you. Before we talk about what is happening now with peace talks, I want to ask you about life under Taliban rule. What can you tell us about what you remember most about that time?

ON: What I can tell you from the the Taliban time and the memories of that time, that the city was looking, the Kabul city where I was born, it was looking like a ghost city. Everyone lived under a kind of a terror situation where the fear of being prosecuted for whatever reason, women being prosecuted because of their dressing and for men because of the size of their beards. This was a kind of you know dictatorship or kind of a worse form of dictatorship based governance. But it worked, it brought security and stability to the country, but at the price of taking away people's you know morals, people's psychology. But I mean the other thing I can tell you about that time is the resistance and the resilience of the woman. I was young in those days, in my early 20s and together with my very dear friend and colleague of the time and now of course, we organized these home-based classes and we didn't surrender to the rule of Taliban discriminating against half of the population. We managed to hope to run these classes on a street basis, where women and girls were getting together and former teachers who were teachers in the school and at this time they were at home because of the Taliban's decision that women should not attend girls schools or attend any public jobs. So they turned their guestrooms in the house as a classroom and they teach girls and women how to read and write.

AMT: And if they had been caught, what would have happened to them?

ON: This could really be a life threatening sort of kind of a risk at that time, but we were ready to take that risk at that time because we thought on the one side, there is that risk exists and on the other side is to completely surrender to something that is not acceptable based on Islamic principles, that is not acceptable acceptable based on you know international norms and standards nor is it acceptable because of the Afghan identity that we have.

AMT: Habiba Sarabi, we all remembering the horrific footage of women being stoned and stadiums being used to execute people. Obviously that footage being taken secretly and sent out of the country. What was life like for you under the Taliban?

HS: So the situation that Orzala explained, it was very similar I think for everyone, but of course some of us, they were able to live. On Sunday we had a little bit better situation because I was out, I left Afghanistan and then to Pakistan. But the people the women that were here in Kabul or in Afghanistan, of course they passed a very bad time. And there was not any single rights for women.

AMT: So when you hear, each of you, and follow the prospect of a peace deal with the Taliban, I'm wondering what you're thinking and what concerns you, Orzala Nemat?

ON: When the course of the years from 1996 to 2001 that they ruled, we have seen that they were also like controlling a big part of the country at that time, almost 99 per cent of the country, but still their ruling was horrifying and as it was explained, that was what we saw. So at that time that was the situation. Now, Taliban since the, in the post-2001 context, particularly since 2005-2006, Taliban turned into a terrorist group more. Like they are having bloods in their hands, similar to many other warlords in the country, but there are clear evidences of Taliban being involved and claiming responsibility for massive destruction of people, destruction of lives of innocent and attacking civilians. So things that characterize Taliban in the post-2001 context is much more horrifying than things that characterises them during the time of their ruling. So part of us, to answer your question specifically, part of us are kind of excited because we see that there is some level of consensus to actually think of a possible peaceful solution to the current conflict. The people who are ready to blow themselves up in front of a school, inside a classroom, inside a mosque, are getting ready to actually surrender for peace than giving up on war. But then the other part of us also, remembering the nightmares of the past, are terrified because we think what will happen? What will happen to the future generation? Are we going back to the same old situation as before?

AMT: I'm wondering, Habiba, would you agree with what she's saying?

HS: Of course I'm agree with that. Everybody in this country, in Afghanistan, they are seeking peace. They want peace, but what is the difference? The difference is that at the end of the war is not peace. It would be really fragile, if there will be no justice. Justice is something that brings a sustainable peace and when the peace is not included, of course this peace will not be sustainable.

AMT: I have a clip I'd like you to hear about concern about what might come out of peace talks with the Taliban given their history. This is Nargis Aziz. She owns and operates two cafes in Kabul. She plays music in her cafes. Men and women sit together, all things unimaginable under the previous Taliban government. Listen to what she has to say.

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VOICE: I would say yes this is the time to make peace with Taliban, but I do have this afraid in my mind also that what if the male dominant society that Taliban had created, they follow that one or what if they put some criteria that females cannot work out of their home.

AMT: Orzala Nemet, what do you think of her concerns?

ON: I think her concerns are not as unique to Nargis Aziz. My 18-year-old cousin who just graduated the school has exactly the same concerns, but my message to her and the younger generation of my country, in Afghanistan or outside willing to return is that don't forget the fact that the history of women's rights struggle in this country did not begin in 2001. We were around and we are an example of women who also worked and were active, despite the horrifying you know situation under the regime. Taliban also can not simply deny the fact that women in Afghanistan today are much more empowered thanks to the international community's support in comparison to 2001 or before. And they cannot simply just you know do the same thing as the first in our hope and expectation is one that a Taliban also accept and recognizes women as equal party to decision making and we are having our own Constitution. We are having our own national identity. We are having our religious identity. So we both are on the same war. I would like to sit with the my to I and have a discussion for example for my friends and colleagues in women leaders in general.

AMT: Well let me ask you Orzala then, the concerns you know you saw a certain kind of treatment of women under Taliban rule, but does that necessarily, like what about the others who might be joining with the Taliban to rule Afghanistan after any peace agreement. Do you think that they are committed to the entrenchment of women's rights?

ON: Well that's a very valid concern and that's a very valid point you're making here, Anna Maria because you know our concern our from particularly I say this you know are from the experiences of my colleagues who have been directly involved in some talks in kind of track two circles of you know for informal negotiations or talks and discussion with the Taliban that they've to us that actually that Taliban do not have a very direct and women kind of you know approach. There are some concerns on this side of the you know the government's side or indeed they say a lot of people were recognize where their state of Afghanistan the some people representing these former institutions are having quite similar you know thinking's in terms of you know Taliban you know women's limitation and creating lives limitations. But I mean this is not something that will be depending on the assembly on how these two groups are going to completely discriminate against women. I think it's also also to do with the role of the international community the role of the regional and international players in Afghanistan and their commitment to the values that we have been fighting for for years for our lives in my sort of situation. So these values that we've fought for you know for for years we don't want to simply sacrifice it and return to something that is just a PR kind of a business of okay we have a peace deal and here are like the deal strike and here are some hand shakings of some men.

AMT: Let me ask Habiba Sarab, will there be, are there now women at the negotiating table?

HS: Yes there are, I mean not for this Doha of course, there are not any women on that, it's just between the US and the Taliban. But for the negotiation team, of course there are three women out thirtr. But let me to explain a little bit more because I was the first one that I participated after this track. I know they want to draw a kind of explain the kind of quality of style of one we wanted to see that day they want to talk to one to talk to you because you demolished the other. So it was wrong for me and what I would caused this. It was the death of chivalry by the gun, by the military. We can not say that there was any shame because a women did and didn't have a license and they could go to your patients. He some and some other issue of course. He said that the Taliban are so cheap now they have a little bit more defined. But at the same time he wanted to see that once they shed your love for women. And this is something that everybody in this country incorporating the Sharia Law from their own benefits and I receive daily calling from my friends, from women that they want to share their concern.

AMT: So Habiba Sarabi, you made the point that the Taliban actually refuse to include the Afghan government in the Doha discussions. So when do Afghan people get to the table with the Taliban and how do you ensure that the concern you just raised actually gets an airing at a negotiating table?

HS: It is not very clear of course, the US and a special representative share that it is the kind of pre negotiation talk, but of course the real negotiation will come and they have to talk with the Afghans because they are from the same society and they have to talk with their Afghan brothers and sisters.

AMT: Orzala Nemet, what does your research tell you about how people are feeling across the country about peace with the Taliban?

ON: Well our researching can generally, the sense that we are getting in Afghanistan is telling us that the majority of Afghan people are desiring for peace. This conflict has gone on for too long and we have had so many losses that everyone is just ready for peace. But then there's also challenges. Another research think tank we are familiar with and we are sometimes collaborate also did a research and they found out that a vast majority of common and ordinary people did not have much information about you know the processes that are going on. So it's more elite oriented if I may say at this moment. But then we even and this is at this stage I think there is a lot questions that are unanswered for it generally for public because there is a lot of fake news going around rumors that are spread that creates more concerns in the mind of you know younger generation in the mind of people who are not directly involved in these kind of political decision making. And as our conversation has sort of like highlighting, what we are talking about is not a simple change for you know moving or transitioning from one actor in government to another one it is actually a transition that involves actors in the country, actors in the region and actors globally.

AMT: Well I want to pick up on what you say about the difference between the wider citizenship and the elite, the people who are following all of this closely. We spoke to Adeena Niazi who is executive director of the Afghan Women's Organization here in Canada. She has an orphanage for girls in Kabul. Listen to her perspective.

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VOICE: The woman who are doing, they don't constitute a large number, I think it will be hardly two percent of entire Afghan women. And soon there are women in Afghanistan who are suffering from discrimination, forced marriage. We have the statistics of women who have committed suicide, like burning. I mean we cannot showcase a number of women who are enjoying these rights and just generalize and assume that everybody, each and every woman in Afghanistan enjoys those rights.

AMT: So Orzala Nemet, she puts the number around two percent of women who can take advantage of some new found freedoms. What do you say to that?

ON: I respect her view, but I may respectfully disagree with the percentage part of it. It's true that a very tiny minority of women living in the capital or the core of the sort of major cities have gained a little unbalanced kind of resources for themselves and then for their own interests. But also let's not forget I mean my PhD research looked into women across the country particularly I looked into Bamiyan for example with my case study in eastern Afghanistan. And in both cases what I found was that women in the rural Afghanistan are they're much more outspoken. They are articulate in their demands, and they in some instances if not all are taking the lead in their communities, for ensuring that they represent their constituencies well and for ensuring that there are more resources coming through there. So while this story of violence against women, discrimination against women, forced marriages and challenges like those exist in the country, there are also stories of resistance of women, of women trying to you know take the leadership position in the community level there are some of the development you know programmings in also the performance of these women women as peacemakers women as for example elderly women trying to you know resolve domestic conflicts. And every time I travel to for example eastern Afghanistan these days I travel more because they come from there. And every time I go there I look in to women who are still by the way wearing the burka as the famous burkas that we denounce its imposition on women during the title of one morning but they're displayed there. They are like empowered in the sense of like educating themselves toward a higher education levels bachelor degrees in master degrees. They travel like very traditional communities in the district and they try to mobilise women in those places. So every time I see young and dedicated women taking the risk literally for dear life for the life of their you know a company even though there are no family members or relatives or sometimes colleagues or whoever goes with them. I think we can not simply victimize the women of Afghanistan anymore.

AMT: And Habiba Sarabi, the US as it does these conversations, these talks, has said it will pull out its 14,000 troops as soon as a deal is brokered. Would you welcome that move?

HS: So I think if immediate withdrawal will be another mistake. I want to share that very openly and that it would be another mistake. It should be a kind of responsible withdrawal and they all of course we are appreciating the support of the international community, but it doesn't mean that immediately the withdrawal should happen and they have to think about the people of Afghanistan, the people who have suffered a lot. So their life is very important and this is the people that they are making apart of democracy. So if we want democracy around the world, we have to respect the people and respect their life and respect their situation. So this is my view about that.

AMT: We're almost out of time. I just want to ask each of you what you think peace would look like. Orzala Nemet, what would peace look like to you?

ON: Well peace looks likes to me and I'm envisioning peace in a form of not being witness to more bloodshed in my country. Not being witness to suicide attacks. Not being witness to raids on the families and innocent civilians across the country and peace also to me envisions as a situation where I can live my own life as an Afghan women, independent and also that I can see my you know Afghan women mates across the country, whether in the rural or urban areas as you know equal citizens.

AMT: And Habiba Sarabi, what will peace look like to you?

HS: Peace look like for me look like the Afghan people that trusts parents of Afghanistan that every individual Afghan should live together without any discrimination, without any horror and terror. And every minority group and also every group, including women, youth, children, they have their equal right to the other citizens.

AMT: Orzala Nemet and Habiba Sarabi, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us today.

ON: Thank you.

HS: Thank you.

AMT: Habiba Sarabi is the deputy chair to the High Peace Council and the senior adviser on women to the chief executive of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. Orzala Nemet is the director of the Afghanistan Research and Evaluation Unit, which is an independent research institute. They joined us from Kabul. Let us know what you think of what they've had to say and their worries about a peace deal where the rights of women are not entrenched. You can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook or go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent.

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AMT: Coming up, they hunt whales without modern technology. They share the meat equally among themselves, but their way of life is facing the threat of extinction. Writer Doug Bock Clark introduces us to the last whalers in our next half hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current on CBC Radio One, Sirius XM, online on cbc.ca/thecurrent, on podcast and on your radio app.

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How some of the last subsistence whalers are balancing tradition with modern life

Guests: Doug Bock Clark

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

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Song by the Lamaleran people.

AMT: It is a gentle melody, but that song is like the calm before the storm. It is sung to prepare for an intense battle between human hunters and whales. The Lamaleran people are hunter gatherers on a little known Indonesian island about 2000 kilometres east of Jakarta and they are one of the last to subsistence whalers in the world. And as with many Indigenous groups they're struggling to keep their traditional ways, as modern lifestyles move even closer. Their culture is closely tied to the whale hunt and losing it would in their eyes be losing what makes them Lamaleran. Doug Bock Clark is a writer who spent time living with the Lamalerans. He is the author of The Last Whalers: Three Years in the Far Pacific with a Courageous Tribe and a Vanishing Way of Life. And Doug Bock Clark joins us from Durham, North Carolina. Hi.

DOUG BOCK CLARK: Hello. Thank you for having me.

AMT: What's the significance of songs, such as the one we just heard for the Lamalerans?

DBC: The Lamalerans believe that their ancestors are always present and that the ancestors have control over what happens in the physical world, including sending the whales that they need to eat. So that song is asking for the help of the ancestors to send the whales for the coming hunt. The whales are actually viewed as reincarnations of the ancestors or gifts sent by the ancestors to sustain the community. One of the unique things about the Lamalerans is they still get most of their calories from hunting. These giant whales, each of which can weigh 40 to 50 tonnes, provide enough meat for the 1500 people in the community to survive.

AMT: You did a bit of a play by play one time that you went whale hunting with the Lamaleran people. Let's listen to some of that.

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DBC: There's two within reasonable striking distance. One of them is getting quite close. The men are rowing, the men are rowing. The harpooner on the front has crouched. He has raised his harpoon, can the rowers bring him close enough to catch this whale? Even from here the whale looks huge. They are give or take thirty five feet. This whale is significantly bigger. Oh, oh, oh my goodness. So I don't know if this is the same whale that surfaced maybe two hundred yards from my part of the fleet.

AMT: That sounds like it was really something.

DBC: The hunts are always unforgettable experiences.

AMT: How do they actually hunt for whales then, what's going on?

DBC: So the way that they hunt for a whales is they launch about a dozen large wooden boats. These are ancient boats that are built to the exact blueprint of the boats that they used centuries ago, literally not deviating in any sort of way. Many of the ropes are made from jungle materials such as hibiscus bark. The sails are made from palm leaves and once they are close enough to the well about a dozen men row the boat right up to the whale, as the whale tries to flee and then a man on essentially a diving platform at the front of the boat will lift a 16 foot bamboo harpoon and jump off the boat and use his body weight to impale his harpoon into the whale.

AMT: Using his body weight, so he's jumping on the whale?

DBC: Essentially yes.

AMT: And when you first saw that, what was going through your head? That must have been an incredible sight.

DBC: It is an incredible sight. It hearkens back to the way that people survived firm Linnea before our industrialized lifestyles. At one point all humans were hunter gatherers are humans to survive had to coordinate in groups and so it was an incredible thing to get to be part of this very commune or action taken by this brotherhood of very brave men.

AMT: We heard some motor sounds in that tape, how much have their fishing practices been modernized over the last decades?

DBC: Really until the early 2000s. They very very rarely used outboard motors. So there are now two kinds of boats in the Lamaleran fleet. There's the ancient boats and there's a much smaller kind of craft which is called Johnson and that name comes from a brand of American outboard engine and these boats are used as support craft during the hunt. So according to the ancestors only the ancient boats themselves are allowed to attack the whales directly to have one of the smaller boats with outboard motor. Do so would be to violate all sorts as important cultural and spiritual taboos. However they have obviously come to see the power of outboard motors.

AMT: I've got some other tape here because you were also on the beach with the Lamalerans as they butchered a whale.

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[Lamalerans speech]

AMT: First of all can you describe the beach?

DBC: There's maybe 50 yards of blacksand, often covered with huge whale bones or the remains of other animals that they hunt in the centre of the community. It's the practical centre where a lot of the work gets done for dividing up meat, but it's also the spiritual centre, where a lot of those whale bones are kept in essentially shrines and there's also a small Catholic chapel because they have a very unique mix of Catholicism and animism in their religion.

AMT: And they all work just the way they work to catch to harpoon that whale to actually butcher the whale. Your pictures are, mind you how big a whale is, the pictures really show that in your book. Everybody working together on that whale carcas.

DBC: When you know a 30 or 40 or 50 foot sperm whale is brought in, it can take several days to fully cut it up and then they are very equitable about dividing that meat out among the whole community, so that every family gets some. It's sort of like the community winning the lottery. So the Lamalerans dry the meat and then trade it up the mountain, in an ancient barter economy for the vegetables that are grown by the mountain farming tribes.

AMT: And this butchering is taking place, some of the kids end up playing on the carcass, am I right? It's a real community thing.

DBC: Oh yeah, a favourite game is you know, king of the whale, where the kids will sort of clamber atop the whale floating in the bay and try and push each other off or it makes sort of a perfect water slide. If you want to take a running start at its head and then sort of dive down onto its tail. Again, it's important to remember, that while it's incredibly sad from a conservationist point of view, when one of these magnificent animals is killed, for them it's a moment of celebration. It's a reward for following the ways of the ancestors and it's going to feed the whole community for a very long time.

AMT: And as you point out, it's really equitable. They are a sharing society.

DBC: You know if someone, if each clan and there's about 20 clans, only catches on average one whale a year, they would starve in the space between catching whales, but by making it by having each clan share out the whale, whenever they catch one, it ensures that everyone always has something.

AMT: How has modern Indonesian life come into the Lamaleran society at this point?

DBC: So the Lamalerans by no means are ignorant of what's going on outside their island. They're very very aware of what's happening in the modern world. In the last few years they've gotten a cellphone tower which has pretty bad signal. But they can occasionally you know get on the Internet. You know it's hard to trade wellmade for an outboard motor. And so increasingly during the rainy season when it's hard to hunt. Many of the young men walk or work construction jobs to get some money. But what I also bring back these outside ideas and outside influence is that they see in more industrialized areas of Indonesia.

AMT: How far away is the nearest modern city?

DBC: Not far at all. There's a line of about maybe 5000 or 6000 foot mountains that cuts the island in half and we would think of the town on the other side which is about 25,000 or 30,000 people, as a very developing town. You know it's mostly cinder block buildings, but for them it's the big city and you can really get access to most anything that you would want there.

AMT: So how do they decide how much the ways of the ancestors can adapt and change?

DBC: So it's a constant negotiation within the community. there are different groups of people that want different amounts of modernization. Many of the young people favour much more liberal policies, while many of the older people want things to stay exactly as they were. One of the unique things that they do is what's called the Council on the beach where all of the men of whaling age sit down together and then discuss well what are we going to allow this year. The fact that they were going to use the word murder was something that they discussed and they tried to weigh the pros and cons of allowing these machines into the community. So in the late 1970s when they really first encountered the Alpern murders many of the tribal elders convinced everyone you know we really dont want to be using these things. It would anger the ancestors. Over the decades increasingly people got more used to it so at first you know they kept to our burn in their town and if they needed to rush someone to the hospital or on the other side of the island thats what you could use an outboard motor for you know around 2000 people began experimenting with attaching smaller motors to smaller boats and then using them to hunt very small animals like sharks. And at first people were really sure if this would be okay with the ancestors obviously the ancestors had not left directions for how to deal with this kind of situation. And so over the years the community has increasingly decided that okay so keen to use our and in these situations but were going to keep the real core of the way of the ancient way. That's what's important to the ancestors. That's what we have to do and that process of figuring out how much of what's good about the outside world they want to keep and what they want to reject is very much a key to their success in keeping their traditions alive.

AMT: Now you met two young Lamaleran men Ben and John who were struggling with their roles growing up in a traditional society. What was their situation while you were living in the community with them?

DBC: So both of them were considered to be you know promising prospects to become harpooners. That is the dream that many young men have there, the same way that a young man in America or Canada might want to grow up to become a professional hockey player or a professional basketball player. You know there's about a dozen men operating the rest of the boat and then one guy at the front is sort of the all-star and he's the one with the harpoon. However for both of them, they were very aware of what was happening in the outside world and they were also really interested in or what would it be like to you know go live in this large modern town on the other side of the mountains or Ben who is one of the young men who came from a very respected family of harpooner as he had heard about Bali an Indonesian tourist Mecca and he that oh you know it might be cool to go there and go try and become a deejay. So I followed them over the course of three years as they tried to make that decision both in terms of going on the whale hunts and training as harpooner and trying to please their elders and their ancestors, but also as they explored what the modern world could offer them.

AMT: And so Ben's father Ignatius was the one we heard singing the traditional whaling song earlier. He's well respected as a whaler and a ship builder. How did Ben and his dad get along?

DBC: It was a complicated relationship for a time. Ignatius was considered one of the best harpooners in the tribe, really a shining star of keeping the traditions alive. So when his youngest son decided that well you know he might be interested in going exploring life outside the tribe, Ignatius loved Ben, wanted him to be happy, but like many fathers all over the world, also thought that he knew what might be best for Ben to do and so he would give subtle and not so subtle pressure for Ben to pick up the harpoons and join the waves of the ancestors. And so for a time that resulted in some conflict between them. But over time Ben increasingly began to see the vakue of this ancient way of life and the strong communal bonds that were there and by the end of the three years I was there, he had decided not to leave the community, not to try and go to Bali and he had become one of the most successful young harpooners in the tribe.

AMT: You also met two young women, John's sisters, one who becomes Ben's wife. What was life like for them there?

DBC: So men generally do the work at sea, while women do the work on land. And it's a very poor community materially. It has electricity for a few hours every night, but most people still cook on wood fires. Water is fetched from the wells and so for many of the young women it's very labor intensive and tough lifestyle. You know when they go over the mountains and they see oh wow we could just use a rice cooker. It's very very attractive to them.

AMT: Because Eta isn't Lamaleran originally, is she?

DBC: She is not. She and Ben met while Ben was at over the mountains in the large modern town. She grew up with what would be considered the equivalent of a middle class upbringing. You know she had her father worked in a government job and then also ran a small basically a convenience store. And so I think it was very hard for her when she married Ben and then all of a sudden was introduced to this hunter gatherer community and you know had to take a significantly physically harder way of life. But over time you know she has also discovered some of the good things about living there.

AMT: A lot of women leave the community. Why are the parents okay with that?

DBC: Because women don't go to sea, many parents consider it a good opportunity for the young woman to go out into the modern world and maybe make some money that can be sent back to sustain the family or to pay for the things that they're not earning cash for when they stay in the traditional barter economy.

AMT: It's so interesting that balance that you were witnessing of how they were trying to let in some modernity and still keep their ways. In the midst of this, you introduce us to someone called Salas Bata Ona. Who is he and how is he changing the society?

DBC: So Salas Bata Ona was a very prominent member of the community. When he was young he left the community and was sent to become a Catholic priest and he moved to the capital of Indonesia. He eventually decided that it would be best for everyone if you tried to bring back some of those advantages from the modern city to buy malaria and those included new ways of fishing such as using drift nets. Some people have been very appreciative of his efforts and many other people have been leery of his efforts.

AMT: How did they feel about you living with them and telling their story?

DBC: Well I was so so lucky. They were just incredibly generous in accepting me and increasingly as they see what's changing in the outside world and how the outside world is putting pressure on their traditions, they sometimes feel threatened by it and I think that they believe that by telling their story they could show the world what life is like for them and why they do the things they do and the great value that they see in living in the ways of the ancestors and they hoped that if the world better understood that then they might have a better chance of keeping those traditions alive.

AMT: Now you learned their language.

DBC: I did I spoke Bahasa Indonesia, which is the national language fluently, but I also tried to learn their native language, which is spoken by a very small number of people and it was amazing chance to try and see the world from their perspective. They had dozens of words for how to harpoon something you know. There's a different word for miss to the left and or miss to the right or to throw your harpoon over something or under something or to stab something all the way through a fish. In learning that language and really being able to hear the nuances of their stories, I was trying to give voice to their stories in as much of an accurate way as possible.

AMT: Just so our listeners would clarify. You spent three years, you were in and out, long periods of time in, over that three years period.

DBC: So I would try and spend much of the hunting season with them every year, so about four months every year and it was really a chance to see how the community changed over time.

AMT: And so when you were living with them, what would that be like? Were you like, did you have the same kind of daily routine?

DBC: I did everything with them. I lived in their houses. I would go hunting with them. I'd go to chop down firewood and I'd just tried to see things as much as possible from their way of viewing the world.

AMT: It's a real privilege.

DBC: I was so lucky.

AMT: I want to ask you. Whaling has long been a controversial practice. Japan caused a stir in December when it left the international whaling convention and decided to resume commercial whaling. Inuit people in Canada were only able to take up their traditional bowhead whale hunt again in 2011, after population numbers rebounded. The species had been off limits for years. How controversial is the Lamalerans whale hunting?

DBC: Increasingly there are outside conservation groups that seek to either limit or totally end the hunt and what they argue is that you know whales are incredibly unique, intelligent, animals and so many of these groups argue that it is wrong to almost ever hunt a whale. At the same time, the Lamalerans whale hunt does not affect that global population of sperm whales. There are give or take 200,000 or 300,000 sperm whales worldwide. The Lamalerans take on average 20 a year and it feeds them, both in a physical sense and in a spiritual sense. Indonesia is not a signatory to the International Convention on the Regulation of Whaling, however if it were, that convention has various exemptions to allow Indigenous groups like the Lamalerans to continue their hunt when it's truly a subsistence hunt. So while whaling remains controversial and there can be people can fall on both sides of the issue, if there is a type of whaling that is okay, many people feel that it is the Lamalerans.

AMT: Well what about the Indonesian government? You mentioned that this is a barter society. Are they trying to move them closer to the industrialised society?

DBC: So the Indonesian government is trying to encourage the Lamalerans to increasingly join what they think of as sort of you know modern industrialised Indonesia. There are various advantages to that. The Indonesian government will be able to tax them, the Lamalerans will be part of this larger cultural unity and it will also, the Indonesian government would stop getting pressure from many of these conservation groups.

AMT: Around the world what existential threats are traditional societies and small language groups like this one facing?

DBC: You know so the Lamalerans experience is very indicative of the challenges that Indigenous peoples worldwide are going through. The United Nations estimates that there are 370 million Indigenous people who are facing challenges like this. There are many many groups throughout the world over who continue to lead traditional lifestyles whether that's hunting and gathering or being herding societies or being Swithin farmers in the Amazon and all of these groups are facing incredible pressure to join in industrialised ways of life. That pressure can come from governments as we've just discussed who want to force them into their national identity and have them be under their laws. Those pressures can come from climate change which are destroying their bases or depopulating the animals. They need to hunt or destroying their jungles and they can just come in inadvertent form when the massive cultural products like Hollywood or Bollywood attract all the young people away from these groups. And studies have shown that you know when these groups lose their culture, all of a sudden when they lose you know their forests to hunt in or all the young people are drawn away from the group in order to go work in the palm oil plantations. Inevitably, it really affects the physical health of all those people. It affects the cultural health and almost always leads to the destruction of that culture.

AMT: So what happened to Ben after you left Lamalera?

DBC: So shortly after I left Lamalera, Ben was killed in a hunting accident. He leapt off the front of his boat to try and spear a manta ray and he probably hit it, but what happened next was not clear. He either got tangled in the harpoon rope and dragged underwater or the manta ray itself may have wrapped him up in its wings and dove to the bottom of the ocean to escape. But after striking the ray, he did not surface, which has just been heartbreaking.

AMT: How old was he?

DBC: He was in his late 20s.

AMT: You managed to keep in touch. You said there was some spotty cell phone. Can you actually call or do you, how do you do that? How do you stay in touch?

DBC: Call when the network is up, you know send text messages and wait for the Internet to pop up and get them delivered. Whenever I leave, you know it always leaves a hole in my heart. I always miss them and the ability to keep in touch even in a virtual way has been a real gift.

AMT: So do you know how Ben's widow, Eta, is?

DBC: Everybody misses him. He had really committed himself to the community. He had committed himself to becoming one of the leading harpooner. He had two young children, he was supporting his father Ignatis who was increasingly retired from the hunt. And so he left not only a void of support for his own family, but it was like the loss of one of the leaders of the people who was going to continue the traditions. But that said, because the Lamalerans believe so strongly in their ancestors, I was talking to Ignatius around Christmas time and he was telling me that whenever he goes hunting still, he feels Ben is there. You know he feels that Ben has joined the ancestors and it's with him whenever he continues to practice that culture.

AMT: That's a beautiful image.

DBC: It is and they draw a lot of strength and spiritual well-being from that.

AMT: Doug Bock Clark thanks for talking to me. It's really fascinating to hear what you learned in your work and living there. Thank you.

DBC: Thank you for having me.

AMT: Doug Bock Clark is a writer and he's the author of The Last Whalers: Three Years in the Far Pacific with a Courageous Tribe and a Vanishing Way of Life. He joined us from Durham, North Carolina. That's our program for today. Stay with Radio One for Q The Man Booker Prize winning Jamaican novelist Marlon James is on the show with his new book, Black Leopard Red Wolf. Be sure to join us tomorrow on The Current. I'll be speaking with Canada's Minister of Foreign Affairs, Chrystia Freeland. I'll also be joined by the former governor of New Jersey, former head of the US president Donald Trump's transition team, Chris Christie. He has a new book out and he's not holding back, especially when it comes to Jared Kushner. Last week he joined Stephen Colbert the night the State of the Union address was originally scheduled, but was canceled because of the partial U.S. government shutdown, which is now over or at least temporarily really over. They drank tequila we won't be doing that tomorrow. We're going to leave you a bit of what Chris Christie had to say about that shut down in the States.I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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Feb. 4, 2019 episode transcript

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