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The Current Transcript for January 21, 2019

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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VOICE: We all have to ask the question, why do young men have to die on the concrete in parking lots in Halifax? Why? Why do young men have to keep dying?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: One bullet, one person, so many questions. That particular question came from a Nova Scotia Supreme Court judge earlier this month, but after a week of examining the tragic reach of gun violence, we received many other questions and comments from those of you listening. In half an hour, we'll hear some of them and look for answers with a panel of people who see the effects of one bullet, up close most every day. Also today, if he acts like a goose, sounds like a goose.

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VOICE: [Imitates goose sounds] That's the only two sounds I can do.

AMT: Michael Quetting hatched a nest full of goose eggs and those little goslings insisted he sleep at their side. They waddled into he water after him and followed him when he piloted an ultralight into the sky, all in the name of science. And as he learned about them, he discovered things about himself. The story of Papa Goose, in an hour. But we're starting with the story you're hearing on the news today, involving allegations of sexual assault against an RCMP staff doctor. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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Women allege that RCMP doctor used his authority to sexually assault them in 1980s

Guests: Dave Seglins

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VOICE: I was in my element. I was so proud. My family was proud, my siblings were proud of me. I had top security clearance when I was you know 20-years-old. I thought the future was bright from me.

AMT: That is Helen Henderson describing her excitement and pride at being hired by the RCMP when she was barely out of high school. But the excitement of the job would soon fade away after an alleged sexual assault by an RCMP physician in 1987. Now emboldened by the MeToo movement and recent RCMP admissions about its dark history of abuse, Helen Henderson and more than 30 other women have come forward and filed complaints according to the Toronto Police. Dave Seglins has been looking into this for CBC News and he joins me in our Toronto studio. And a warning, this story concerns content that may be disturbing to some listeners. Hi Dave.

DAVE SEGLINS: Good morning.

AMT: Tell us some more about what happened to Helen Henderson.

DS: Well as you heard in that clip, you know getting hired as a clerk at the RCMP was a really big deal for Helen. She was excited, she's an ambitious woman. She'd only been on the job for a year and she decides to apply for a promotion and she says that's when things first went off the rails.

AMT: One year into the job?

DS: That's right nad at that time to get this promotion, it was RCMP policy, all new recruits were to moving up the ranks you had to have a medical exam, which you'd think no big deal because Helen is 20. She's in good health, no problems right. Though she didn't know quite what to expect because she'd never had a medical exam before.

AMT: So what happened?

DS: Well she got the eye exam. She did blood work. All seemed fine, but then she gets sent to see a staff doctor named John A. Macdougall and it's in his office that she was instructed to remove all her clothes, put on a gown and she says she was subjected to a breast exam that she immediately, well she says it put her on high alert.

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VOICE: He starts to pull at my nipples and I asked you know why are you doing that? And he said that if the nipples go off in one way then there could be something wrong with the breast. Well that lasted a lot longer than I felt it needed to.

DS: So Helen's already feeling uneasy. This situation does not feel right to her and the breast exam unscientific to say the least, she feels. But things got even worse, when he told her that he needed to do an internal exam.

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VOICE: There was no gloves. There was no handwashing. There was no speculum. There was not a need for it, but it moved forward for probably 20 to 30 seconds and he said that was it and I was to get dressed and when I got off the table, he did not dismiss himself. He stood there as I got dressed and I basically ran out of the office knowing that something really wrong happened there. He sexually assaulted me.

AMT: What did she do at the time, Dave?

DS: Well she says immediately, she goes and speaks to two female officers about what happened. She says those officers hearing her story back, back her up, they say look that exam that sounds definitely not okay, but at the time, keep in mind, she's young, she's keen for this promotion and she felt like there wasn't really any safe process where she could go and make a complaint.

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VOICE: There was no staffing. There was no HR. There was nothing. Sat on it. I had all these notes in my wallet for two years and then the next thing you know I can't stand seeing him in the building. I'm working you know within the building, I see his face every day. I asked for a transfer out.

DS: And keep in mind Anna Maria, Helen is now 21 at this point and still relatively new to the job.

AMT: And was that the end of it? Did she get a transfer?

DS: She did. She transferred to the RCMP's Toronto airport detachment and that might have been the end of it, except for a chance conversation. This was October 1989. Helen's in a hallway, near the mailboxes and along come two new recruits, Sylvie Corriveau and Vicki Gravelle. Now they've just been hired a week or two before. They all get to talk again and in the course of that conversation, the talk turns to oh my God, what about that medical exam? And they quickly realize they've all endured the same invasive so called exams by the very same Dr. John Macdougall. Here's Sylvie Corriveau. She was originally a paramedic with some medical training of her own. So she describes what happened at the doctors office and the last stage before she was hired on to the RCMP.

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VOICE: He's rubbing my legs up and down. He commented on how soft they were. How did I get my legs so soft. Then he told me that he didn't have to do an internal because I had a current pap smear, but that he needed to take a peek. So he had me spread my legs again and again I'm thinking, you have not washed your hands, you don't have gloves. You're into my private parts. He was using his authority for his sexual gratification.

AMT: So she experienced something similar to what Helen Henderson described.

DS: Yeah that's her, Helen and then Vicki Gravelle. Similar experience, internal exam, she says no gloves, even though she had up to date records from her own gynecologist. Now the three actually adopted a nickname for Macdougall, Dr. Tweakers. And this is based on his breast exams, which he told each of them was a special tweaking method. Here's Vicki describing it.

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VOICE: So he spent probably a good 20 minutes, 20 minutes to half an hour, manipulating, squeezing, touching nipples, things, telling me all about why. And I question him, what are you doing? Well I'm seeing whether or not your nipples react. He told me that it has to have to react erectly, in order for him to detect if there were problems with things. Yeah I just wanted to disappear inside the room there, when he's doing that.

AMT: It must have been a big moment when they compared their stories. What do they do when they realize that all had the same experience?

DS: Well they did everything they should have. They went to their employer assistance program rep they filed complaints with purity empy they went to the Toronto Police which actually opened an investigation. Took statements. So what happened once their father complains or ultimately very little. I mean a month after they got a run of police which opens an investigation. The RCMP brass step Reham and we've obtained a letter from an RCMP superintendent sent the three of them the women advising that the force has concluded quote the practices carried out by the medical examiner fall within policy guidelines of the RCMP. This letter dated December 21st 1989 right before Christmas. The RCMP also informed them no grounds existed on which to lay criminal charges.

AMT: So they fall within policy guidelines that must have been devastating for these women to hear. Did the RCMP take any action on those complaints?

DS: Quietly yes but never spoke to the women in that letter from that superintendent. He acknowledged problems with quote certain tests utilized by the medical examiner and vowed that there would be an internal investigation but they were keeping it inside the RCMP.

AMT: So on the one hand they say theres no basis for charges and on the other hand theyre saying something went wrong here and were looking into it. What becomes of the investigation?

DS: Well Henderson Corriveau Gravelle all say that was the last they ever heard from anyone at no time did their bosses ask them questions speak to them though through a staff rep they managed to get their hands on some memos documents that gave them a bit of a picture of what was actually going on behind the scenes. There was an RCMP Commander sending a memo announcing they're closing the file. This is done so that's just a matter of a month and a half after they initially got to police. Then there's a second argument this is really interesting. It's from exactly the same time the RCMP bosses sent a force wide memo to all staff doctors directing them female recruits are not have internal exams and they're instead to submit the Rhon medical reports from their own personal doctors. This memo directs that RCMP doctors no longer allowed to do breast general exams of any female recruits without a witness in the room.

AMT: Do we know if anyone else had similar experiences with Dr McDougal during their period?

DS: Sadly yes we've managed to speak to three other women who allege that they too were sexually assaulted in during the very same tests and this is after the police investigation after this whole thing. One of those people is Laurel. She was a 27 and a half year employee who the RCMP she's only learned recently that the force back in the day knowingly kept McDougle on the job and he left her as a young recruit to undergo this exam. What she says was an assault sexual assault. This is mid 1990 and it's all made worse by this fact that it happened she says with an employer's knowledge that something was wrong.

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VOICE: It was devastating. It was almost like a second assault. I mean you took away their first one and you think okay it's done. I never have to revisit it again. It's been taken care of and then you find out that. Someone or something that you've trusted for the better part of your life. You find out that they're actually they helped this man do this to me.

AMT: Decades later you can hear how she's still feeling the effects of that experience.

DS: Oh for sure. And Laura Hodder last year took early retirement and she's even filed a lawsuit against McDougle and the RCMP. She is so upset in disenchanted with her employer she just couldn't function at work she couldn't concentrate she says. You know all of the women that we spoke to despite all of the decades that have passed they still carry this with them. Emery one of the most striking moments in this entire investigation for me anyway came when I was in conversation with Vicki Gravelle. She has a really strong woman she's matter of fact common sense no guff but things changed when I asked her about the personal toll of all this.

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VOICE: I wasn't going to get teary eyed with this, but obviously it's done some. I still work for police department. I am a. Reputable employer. I have a family, grown kids. I function very well, I thought until I had to bring that soe piece up.I'd think I was a broken person, but I must be a little bit harmed or sensitive obviously cause there's tears.

DS: That's Vicki Gravelle.

AMT: What else do we know about what was going on during that period between the three women making that complaint and Dr McDougal leaving the RCMP?

DS: For Helen, Sylvie and Vicki who first spoke up, they came to believe that the RCMP were actively trying to bury us. So that is why they took an extra step they went to the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario they were hoping that they would investigate which they did. Ed here is where we get to hear from McDougle himself. He in writing. You know he will have a copy of his defense here he explained that these breast exams were him taking it upon himself to teach what he called proper breast self-examination technique to the new recruits. Let me read you a portion of McDougal's hornwort. I choose to introduce instruction at this medical Upperton really because I have the time because my readings and medical publications indicate poor attention paid by professionals professionals to this important topic. I am deeply disappointed with the applicants subject of this investigation. If they have felt in any way mistreated so he's defending himself. But we know we can't find anything that medically supports the so called tweaking test that he was doing or is alleged to have done. I'd point out that McDougal's totally silent on the allegations that he had sexually assaulted anyone by stroking their legs rubbing up against them or conducting these internal exams especially with ungloved hands.

AMT: So did the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario take action?

DS: Well they ordered a disciplinary hearing and it was supposed to go basically to a mini trial and at the very last minute there was some sort of deal made in McDougle. He leaves the RCMP and doesn't face discipline and he gets to keep his license for another decade. We've recently obtained an internal letter from the college from that exact time and it's between the prosecutor who was going to do the hearing and the college as head of complaints and it basically says that the women got cold feet. They wouldn't test a fly and so this case fell apart. Okay sounds possible but I can tell you that the three women say that's simply not true. They swear to this day that they were kept in the dark. I've never seen this letter until recently. They were always willing to testify they say they have never heard of or spoken to this prosecutor. So whatever the case is here McDougle avoided any formal hearing and it's been a mystery for the women all these years.

AMT: And what is the college saying about this now?

DS: Well they won't comment directly on why they withdrew this case against McDougal but they say in general it can be. Do you know they can withdraw things due to lousy evidence the doctor may agree to take some steps or witnesses can get cold feet. In a statement we received the college tells us quote Our goal is always to include complainants in the process. Were concerned about the fact that the complainants in this case share a different recollection of events than what documentation suggests and we'll do our best to offer whatever support to them we can.

AMT: Now what about the RCMP?

DS: Well they won't comment. It's difficult for them. I mean we know that they are trying to deal with all manner of historical cases. Silva actually still works there in a senior role so she's told their bosses about what's happening here and that she's going public with this story today. She says the RCMP last year did send out a memo force wide telling anyone with information about this case or an RCMP Doctor please bring it forward so that's encouraging. But given that the police have once again. And because this has burbled to the surface a year ago they've reopened their investigation. They have heard from 30 complainants who've come forward. So as a result they are simply saying look where the police are doing this investigation we're not going to discuss what happened and how we behaved three years ago.

AMT: Where did Dr. John A. Macdougall go after he left the RCMP?

DS: Well they quietly left the RCMP in 1992 and continued to practice as a doctor, as I said for about a decade. He worked for Ontario Hydro for a number of years. He was stationed at one point at the Darlington nuclear plant east of Toronto and ultimately retired his license in 2001. The power authorities, we talked to them, they said they have no record of having received any complaints about him while he was there. But here's one more complicated twist because we wanted to put this to Dr Macdougall and a week and a half ago, we went to his home. He lives in a retirement complex in Mississauga, west of Toronto. He is in his mid 80s. We didn't manage to speak to him. We were instead referred to a family lawyer who told us that Macdougall is in full time care and in fact before Christmas, he says he was on his death bed with pneumonia. He pulled through, but the lawyer says Macdougall hasn't been a sound mind for a number of years. So this lawyer said he's not authorised to comment further and the family has declined to speak to us.

AMT: What does all that mean for the case?

DS: Well it's not clear. The police won't really say. The women say they were promised the police would charge him no matter what but if he isn't fit to stand trial there is no prospect of conviction. Police may never lay charges.

AMT: And how is all of that sitting with the women?

DS: Not very well. Obviously his mental state complicates things. I mean how on said I put him to argue does this change how you feel. She says it's deflating to hear about his condition. It makes her feel as though maybe there are too late. But it doesn't change their wish that they want their story heard. Here's Helen Henderson.

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VOICE: He knows what he did. I think it's still important that the public knows would happen people that he trusted people that he confided in people he talked about his life and how proud he did his job and how well he did it. There was this other side to him. I think it's important that it's still revealed. Whether he understands what's happening, there's still a really huge part of this story that needs to be revealed and accountability.

DS: So they're angry and they still want justice and they're really preparing for battle, be it a trial of Macdougall or a lawsuit.

AMT: Wouldn't it be able to be eligible for compensation under the big class action settlement with the RCMP?

DS: Oh ready for this. I mean they certainly hope so that Morillo Davidson settlement one hundred billion dollars set aside to compensate auty and women for historical sexual abuse gender discrimination. Helen, Vicki and Sylvia each applied. They hoped it might offer them you know some validation, maybe some compensation, but get this, after preparing their lengthy claims, Vicki and Sylvie were both rejected. That's despite their long careers with the RCMP and the reason why, these medical exams by Macdougall were technically pre-employment. So according to the terms of Murleau Davidson, they don't qualify for financial compensation.

AMT: So let me understand, they were disqualified because they allege sexual assault relating to an exam that was part of their hiring process, as opposed to post-hiring?

DS: Correct. Even though they were on the job within days. You know this has been a real another slap in the face because Helen, who keep in mind, remember she was on the job and she went for promotion, she did receive a payment. So there's validation for her that this happened, but the other women because they weren't yet on the payroll, don't get to claim.

AMT: So do they have any prospect for justice or compensation?

DS: Yes, but its going to take time. Sylvie Corriveau has just filed a brand new $135 million proposed class action suit against the federal government, on behalf of anyone who is victimized by predatory doctors at the RCMP and this would not just include Macdougall, but also others. We know of another doctor in Halifax that is facing a police investigation for allegedly abusing a hundred men and women, while he was working for the Mounties. So in a way this trio says look they were denied justice back 30 years ago, here we are now. It's taking yet more time. With Toronto Police just about a year and dozens of complaints, they're not, they've not charged or come to any resolution. That may never happen. Now there's a new class action. That could take who knows how many years.

AMT: It's got to be frustrating for the women given that they came forward so very long ago.

DS: Yes, but ultimately there's a sense that it's still worth it. It's still important for them to get their voices out there. Here's Vicki Gravelle.

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I guess it'll give me peace of mind to say I said something again. I'm hoping that the RCMP hears me, you need to be accountable to all of us women and you did this. We tried to stop it and you allowed it to continue and I'm pretty sure they knew it was happening all along. So I want them to be made accountable.

DS: Accountable and accountability. I mean they keep using this word. We keep hearing it. Police need to be accountable. Like last week, Ottawa announced a new board of civilian overseers for the RCMP to enhance accountability, but for these women accountability really begins with someone finally listening to them, acknowledging and perhaps making amends for what happened to them so many years ago.

AMT: Dave Seglins, thanks for this.

DS: Thank you.

AMT: Dave Seglins is an investigative reporter with CBC News. He joined me in our Toronto studio. You can read more about this story on our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. Stay with us. The CBC News is next. Then we're taking up some of the hard questions that came out of our special series on gun violence last week, One Bullet. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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No 'silver bullet' solution to urban-rural divide on gun ownership, says expert

Guests: Peter Sloly, Amanda Dale, Kathleen Buddle

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

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AMT: Still to come, Mother Goes was a fairytale, but Papa Goose is very real. Michelle Quetting aka Pappa Goose joins me in half an hour to talk about the months he spent with baby geese, 24 hours a day, all in the name of science. He even taught them how to fly. But first, echoes from One Bullet.

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AMT: Last week we delved into the trauma of gun violence in Canada with our special series One Bullet. We heard about everything from unsolved crimes to domestic abuse and suicide and the legacy guns leave for victims, their loved ones, jurors, lawyers, first responders. The reverberations of gun violence are also felt by judges in Canadian courtrooms. In Halifax, Nova Scotia, Supreme Court Justice Jamie Campbell has seen a lot of pain come before him. On January 8th, he offered his opinion on guns. The CBC has been granted special permission to play some of what Justice Campbell told the court, just before a 23-year-old Carvel Clayton was sentenced to prison for shooting 21-year-Shakur Jefferies to death in an apartment parking lot.

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VOICE: This is not a place where families should have to come to talk about their sorrow and to talk about their grief. This is a cold place. No one is going to leave here feeling like they should celebrate because justice has been done. It's a tragedy. One young man's life has been lost, daughter without a father, sons without fathers, families without family members. Another young man is going to jail for a long time. We all have to ask the question, why do young men have to die on the concrete in parking lots in Halifax? Why are there guns in this community? Why? This problem isn't going to be solved until we as a community, us, all of us together, start asking questions and we have to ask the hard questions because the easy questions have already been asked. The easy questions have easy answers. The hard questions don't. We need to start asking those hard questions.

AMT: Mr Justice Jamie Campbell of the Nova Scotia Supreme Court, speaking in early January. Today we are exploring what those hard questions are. We'll look at some of the issues you, our listeners, raised over the last week to see if we can find some answers. Peter Sloly is a former deputy chief of police in Toronto. He was on duty the night 19-year-old Justin Sheppard was killed in 2001. And Peter Sloly was featured in our first documentary last week, Waiting for a Witness. He is now a partner with Deloitte, leading their national security and justice practice. Peter Sloly joins us on the line from Toronto. Amanda Dale is the executive director of the Barbra Schlifer Commemorative Clinic, which offers legal services, professional counselling and multilingual interpretation to women who have experienced violence. She is in Ottawa. And Kathleen Buddle is a gang researcher and cultural anthropologist at the University of Manitoba. She joins us from Winnipeg. Hello everyone. Welcome.

AMANDA DALE: Good morning.

PETER SLOLY: Good morning.

KATHLEEN BUDDLE: Good morning.

AMT: Peter Sloly, I want to start with you. We heard from so many of our listeners in our one bullet series last week they told us of their own experiences with gun violence where they witnessed people they lost concerns over who had access to guns. Questions over storage. When you think about gun violence in Canada what are the biggest issues we face?

PS: So we're seeing different trend lines happening in Canada and certain communities we're seeing an increase in gun-related crimes, in others we're starting see some effective turnaround and trends. And certainly there is a difference between urban centres and we're also and not way that was lost as well. Well we understand that there are higher levels of crime or higher levels of violence and in some cases higher level gun believers in all communities as opposed to breaking news. That's where the media attention is focused. The covers the series the Munchhausen the Tronox but we are starting to see some real progress being made in the western world around very aggressive ways of addressing God by Outsports short term the long term.

AMT: Well I'm gonna ask you for more detail on that, but give us some hints right now.

PS: We certainly see people tackle crime public safety issues that's Riklis of justice or policing standpoint but what the integrated approach to bringing health social services and education that bear in a more complete concreting I would have to say that again giving short term and long term outcomes that communities what to see.

AMT: And when it comes to gun violence in large urban centres such as Toronto and Vancouver, is that primarily guns and gangs?

PS: Primarily guns and gangs, open street level table violent activity that's taking place. So there's a deftly approach that needs to be taken to getting it reduction across the country we're seeing detested violence by what's taking place in rural communities indigenous communities. They need a different type of strategy to address that particular issue.

AMT: Okay well Kathleen Buddle, if you look at illegal guns being used by criminals in smaller cities such as Winnipeg, other areas, well what are you seeing where the guns coming from?

KB: It looks like most of the guns are coming from home invasions. When I pay figures Manitoban particular has a very unique situation and when it comes to gang violence we have very high indigenous population. Our population here and it is primarily young Indigenous men and young newcomer men who are becoming involved with gangs. I would argue however that the reasons for becoming a getting involved have often very little to do with getting access to guns and that generally the push factors to storage gang involvement have to do with their family circumstances and the broader structural violence that they experience on a daily basis so their incapacity to have their basic needs met for example is one of the greatest precursors to gang involvement in this study. So we don't have people joining gaming's here to be violent very often it's the areas where individuals are joining gangs to protect themselves against predation on the street against what they perceive to be targeting or profiling by the police and against the broader structure of violence which make it very difficult for them to find employment education and other suitable places for themselves in the social economy.

AMT: Well let's bring Amanda Dale in as well. You know Amanda we did hear one we ask for a listener to to let us know what they were thinking as they listened to our One Bullet series. We heard from a mother who told us about how her daughter was shot to death by an ex boyfriend. How prevalent is the use of guns in domestic violence in Canada?

AD: So it's on the rise unfortunately and I agree with the points that Peter made towards the end of what he was saying. So we have seen no erosion of the controls on guns that mostly kill women. So the guns that are mostly used to kill women are hunting rifles so there are unrestricted firearms and the chiefs of police are reporting a 32 percent increase in the use of those guns in homicides domestic homicides over the last four or five years. Now the numbers themselves are fairly small. It's a smaller percentage of what gun violence is in Canada. But it is a particular form of violence that is predictable. It's no wobble in events. So in other words we have all of the information about how the cycle of domestic violence works to know that an armed domestic abuser is a deadly domestic abuser.

AMT: And guns are not solely used to kill women in domestic situations. They're used in other ways, are they not?

AD: They are. In fact I was darling this morning on my way here that one of the first cases we had at the clinic I work at when we opened our family courts support program was the case of a woman who showed up in our waiting room with her 11 year old son unannounced had driven in from just sort of the inner suburbs of Toronto and described the story of absolute isolation for 30 years on a very small farm that had had suburbs grow up around it. And she and her son had been terrorised by a hunting rifle used on the farm for the last 30 years. I mean obviously her son had been terrorized for 30 years he was only 11 years old but her experience of having that gun on the fire completely sheep to experience have access to any kind of support and she had chosen to never step out of line because she was terrified of what he might do with that.

AMT: And that was not an illegal gun?

AD: No it was licensed.

AMT: And what do you see in terms of how to combat something like that?

AD: So we have I mean my clinic mounted a challenge to the destruction of the gun registry and unfortunately we were not successful. So the registry was part of a fuller regime of controls on an unrestricted and restricted firearms. Before the Senate right now are some modifications to the legislation that repealed the gun can the gun registry some of those are strengthening some of the holes that were introduced but they're not sufficient in my view to completely fix the problem. So one of the issues that we have without a registry so would be is if you were driving your car with your licence but there was no registration for your car so if you were involved in a vehicular homicide for instance the police wouldn't be able to find who the car was registered to. They would they might be able to stop you and find out if you were licensed but if you fled in that car they might not be able to find you. So we have a similar situation with hunting rifles and unfortunately in women's experiences those rifles are ready to hand in an escalating domestic violence violence situation it's not that somebody buys a hunting rifle to use it for that but in an escalating situation it's ready to hand in one of the things the legislation has reintroduced is the ability for and the requirement for those who are selling those guns to record who's bought them.

AMT: And we will talk about the legislation, a new firearms bill that was introduced earlier this year in a second, but I have another clip I'd like you all to listen to. We did hear from a number of listeners, legal gun owners, who believe they were, who believed we were portraying all gun owners as a problem. They were making a point that many people who use guns to hunt or for sport shooting or for protection, use them responsibly. Delano Toley lives in Cherry Grove, Alberta. We had him read the letter he sent to us. Listen to this.

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VOICE: We live on a farm in rural Alberta. From 1990 to 1992, my job required that I work in Winnipeg. So my wife lived alone on the farm, except for occasional weekends when I returned. One Sunday morning she heard a vehicle in the farmyard. The man got out of his pickup truck and she called out, what do you want? He replied, I heard there was a party here. She told him there was no party and to leave. His response, well we can make our own party. Rifle in hand, she went to the door and again ordered the man to leave. This time he left. When I came home, I found piles of cigarette butts around the house, where it appeared someone had been watching her. Had she not had that rifle readily accessible, the situation may have ended much differently. Many urban dwellers have absolutely no concept of life in rural areas of this country. Firearms are similar to a hammer or wrench and are are a necessity to rural living, as long as they are used with care.

AMT: I want to get some reaction to that. Kathleen Buddle, let's start with you. What do you think about what's being said there?

KB: Well I think of guns as they do any other technology. They can be used for destruction or they can be used safely. However when the individuals have to look to the community good. What's best for the community? And if we think about the guns in the same way we might think about fire as being potentially harmful or potentially an agent of creation, we all have to accept that when the social climate is such that it is dry and it is like a tinder box, waiting to go off, there may be a reason for a fire ban or there may be a reason to control who has access to some of these weapons. The individuals who are likely to use them for destructive purposes.

AMT: Peter Sloly, how difficult is it to have a conversation about stopping gun violence with gun owners who fear any effort will mean taking away their guns? We get a lot of letters with that sentiment.

PS: Let me just build off what's already been said. There are key stakeholders here and gun owners are key stakeholders people who have been victimized by guns so so US political party are stakeholders because many other policy platforms pre and post production budget around task or in some cases soft on crime. So the number of different stakeholders at play here was their job or even a silver bullet solutions to complex issues but dont balance or sense certainly dont need to be sort of a constructive framework around solutions legislation. Operational technology and philosophical approaches within that basket or within that framework for the basket there are issues around legislation where restriction or access should be explored. Bans on types of weapons purchase of firearms and ammunition should be explored but simply looking at it as a potential issue and having an argument based on that is going to take us nowhere.

AMT: The federal government introduced a new fire bill earlier this year a C-71, would overhaul the background check system. Bring in new record keeping requirements for those selling guns and put more restrictions on the transport of firearms. This is currently before the Senate. What difference would that Bill, could that Bill make, Peter Sloly?

PS: Again as long as it's integrated into a larger framework around addressing. These would be tricky. Gun it was just an average commute is coast to coast to coast. I think it's a reasonable approach but government provide a policy support for it all for ourselves.

AMT: Kathleen Buddle, what in that bill, C-71 would make the most difference do you think?

KB: Well overall I think that the regulations will be assessed however are working from a different end and work more and prevent it from a preventative. So I say I firmly believed that the. I agree with Peter that it's going to take a system wide approach an integrated comprehensive policies and practices which would begin at the community level in order to get community buy in. In order for these policies to make changes the community itself has to see them as viable and worthy of making that difference and certainly and even in terms of gun violence and gang violence. The individuals who are most likely to be the victims of gun and gang violence are either gang members and the families of gang members. So even though they are the ones wielding the weapons they are also the ones most likely to be harmed by the weapons. So as long as there is an agreed it approach and as long as there is an equal amount of funding that is left to preventative efforts primarily through community based organizations then there is a chance of stopping some of the deaths. But I also would point to the fact that people are more likely to use guns to harm themselves than they are to harm others and that many of the individuals who are presenting in hours are representing the result of self-inflicted injuries so mental not nationwide mental health set of policies is in dire need.

AMT: Well I'm going to pick up on that because we have another clip I'd like you to hear. This is something we received from a listener. It has to do with firearms licensing and it comes from Carolyn Woods in Alberta.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Last July, my brother, age 42, took his life by shooting himself. He was an avid gun collector and had collected various firearms from antique rifles to powerful handguns. Brian's mental health had been deteriorating over the last few years of his place. In the fall of 2017, he had his firearms collection taken away by the Fort St. James RCMP following a suicide scare. Our family supported the decision. His troubling behaviour continued and the RCMP had to be called on several occasions. Despite that, Brain was able to renew his dangerous firearms licence. He received his guns back from the RCMP on July 5th. Four days later, following an argument with his girlfriend, Brian took his life with one of his rifles. Our family has been trying to find an answer for one question. What is the decision making process before police release dangerous firearms back to someone who may be at risk of hurting themselves or someone else?

AMT: Peter Sloly, can you answer that question?

PS: You know taditionally we've used the process of firearms application. Information that's available from the victim or victim's family in order to make assessments. So that's a great case where it's partly the combination of firearms registration information Chato information relating to make contact with the local police and information we. Certainly but there will be greater sources of information some of which comes with call legal issues but all sorts of information from the individual Facebook postings and other social media sites can actually provide a rich picture. But just to please health professionals educational professionals that even family members to understand what's going on in an individual's way is really actively before you reach that cycle of violence where a fataily comes to bear.

AMT: Amanda Dale, if someone has a history of attempted suicide or gun violence, should they ever be able to own guns?

AD: Well I think it would have to be decided on a case by case basis. But the problem is there isn't the appropriate resourcing for those kinds of background checks and I think that's what we hear from law enforcement all the time including the domestic violence checks. We have some gaps in the ability to actually verify information. There's gaps, time gaps so the start of a situation can change rapidly and the processing time for an expired license even is often months. In those months. Very bad things can happen very quickly.

AMT: What about a person's personal rights, how does that figure in?

AD: The rights, I think it is an interesting angle that's been taken often by those who are pressuring for more rights for gun owners. I think the framework is very different in Canada both legally and culturally. I think we don't have a second amendment right to bear arms and the question of rights here really is a very simple question of balancing privacy rights with security rates of those in the communities so that I would see the threshold in Canada as very low. The amount of information you have to disclose the rapidity with which you can fill out a form the bureaucracy around it is actually fairly might end given the pressing concerns that well I agree with some of what's been said about guns being part of a household. Certainly they're part of a tool on a farm. My father also had a farm and had a gun but it's not that it's not the same as other tools on the farm because it only has one purpose which is to kill and that I think distinguishes it from other tools in it requires us to balance that privacy of the person who has the gun with the safety of not just the other family members. The person himself who may have mental health issues but the whole community who is affected by this.

AMT: Before I let you all go, later this week, hopefully tomorrow we will hear from Bill Blair, the Minister of Border Security and Organized Crime Reduction, he's also the former chief of police in Toronto, about the federal government's efforts to curb gun violence. What main question or thought would you put to him, Peter Sloly?

PS: Well I know Bill very well and I know he's tackled this particular issue in his career and has continued to do so in his most latest iteration. And I've talked with the that you know there is there has got to be a balance between the legislation that's been proposed funding that's going down into security through all three levels of government and as was stated earlier certainly that addresses got reactive side. I would say we've actually put more proactive side in order to also support public safety covert operations that include integrated. So it was still a neighborhood policing activity that builds resilience and strength within community. You know these are tough challenges and there are no simple answer. So it I would expect that the ministry will present a answer to solve all the problems that we've talked about today.

AMT: Amanda Dale, briefly.

AD: So a couple of things. One is to work with the status of women Minister to ensure that there is a gender lens on how we tackle the issue of guns women experience them differently they have different views about regulation. Women who live with gun owners support gun control and those who own guns. That tells you something. The other thing is to look at this question of recording who's buying a gun. I understand that without the power to you that that most of who's bought the guns the police really aren't going to be able to use it if they have to get a warrant every time they're trying to search for a gun.

AMT: Okay Kathleen Buddle, we're almost out of time. Briefly.

KB: Just to ensure that there is ongoing consultation with the community based organizations who are on the street working with the individuals who are using their guns to provide adequate funding for these organizations to ensure that they are able to assist individuals in dire need.

AMT: Thank you all of you for weighing in on this. Peter Sloly, former deputy chief of police in Toronto, now with Deloitte. Amanda Dale, executive director of the Barbra Schlifer clinic in Ottawa and Kathleen Buddle, gang researcher, cultural anthropologist at the University of Manitoba. This is The Current. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

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Meet Papa Goose, the man who raised and flew with seven fluffy goslings — all in the name of science

Guests: Michael Quetting

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Birds chirping]

AMT: Sounds of a family of seven goslings, fluffy and yellow, peeping away, while climbing all over their father. But that father is a bit of an odd duck in the world of geese or in this case, an odd human me. Micheal Quetting spent several months living with baby geese, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, covered in goose poop, all in the name of science. He even taught them to fly, behind his ultralight plane. The data he gathered is leading to new insights about how geese fly, as well as new ways to take weather measurements. But along the way, Michelle Quetting also gained insight into the individual geese he was raising and learned about himself as well. Michelle Quetting is a laboratory manager at the Max Planck Institute for Ornithology and the author of Papa Goose: One Year, Seven Goslings and the Flight of My Life and he joins us from Konstanz, Germany. Hello.

MICHAEL QUETTING: Hello.

AMT: So we heard the goslings talking, so to speak. How would you answer them when they were making noises like that?

MQ: This was a very special sound. This noise was when they want to crawl under my chamber and want to sleep. So I don't answer anything. I just lay down and let them crawl under the chamber to sleep.

AMT: Oh OK. So what goose sounds did you learn to make though when you would actually make noises back.

MQ: I have two of them. One is the little care taking, lovely sound, when everything's okay. It sounds like [imitates geese sounds] and then you have the other one when you want to warn them of predators or something like that and then you do like [imitates geese sounds]. That's the only two sounds I can do.

AMT: Okay but that was enough for them. That was the right vocabulary, was it?

MQ: Yes it was what I was able to learn.

AMT: Okay. Well you started communicating with the geese when they were still eggs, Listen to this.

[Speech]

AMT: What were you trying to do there?

MQ: Yes that was the tale of Neils Helgason. It's a Swedish tale and I read out of it when there were still in the egg to get them used to my voice.

AMT: They also heard the sound before they hatched.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound of bike horn]

AMT: What are you doing there?

MQ: Yes that was this little children bike horn with rubber ball and so I thought this imitates goose mother's voice. And so I always press the horn and then action follows.

AMT: And there was one other sound you played them. This one is less gentle.

[Sound of propeller]

AMT: That gets to the crux of this whole project, Michelle Quetting, what were you doing there? What are we hearing?

MQ: This is the noise of the propeller of the microlight plane. So I thought that this is really important that they aren't afraid of it.

AMT: So they were hearing, they were already registering the sound early.

MQ: Yes.

AMT: So why were you raising these geese?

MQ: Because I was the only employee in the whole Max Planck Institute who can fly microlight plane.

AMT: And so they start to volunteer.

MQ: Yes yes yes sort of. But for me I dont want to reject this because it's my dream to fly with birds.

AMT: It is an amazing story and will get to that feeling that you had but what was the data you needed to fly with them.

MQ: First it was the plan to get real time. Metrological later you can imagine if there is a sailor on the Atlantic Ocean and he faces a storm he could look after the wind speed and the wind direction off a logger which is mounted on a fried bird. Five hundred kilometres ahead and then Pep's perhaps can change cost something like that because no one did that before to estimate the wind speed and wind direction out of the data from a log which is on the bird spec.

AMT: Okay so the whole plan is to be able to fly with these birds and get them used to flying with it like a little data recorder the size of a matchbox I guess right, did you want to put on their back?

MQ: Yes. And it contains a lot of sensors and we tried to get this state and look what we can do with it in the first place. We wanted to look after wind speed and wind direction.

AMT: I see and so you needed to get the grease from birth because at the end rather than pick them out of the wild.

MQ: Yes we had to imprint the geese because you can imagine if you would use another bird. It's really simple to put the log on the back but to recapture them again to date the redialed it's really complicated. So imprinted geese are ideal for that purpose. They land beside you and then you can take down the loggers and connect it to your computer and do a data readout.

AMT: And the best way to imprint them is to convince them that you are the parent.

MQ: Yes.

AMT: Okay so you won you have them in the incubator. Finally they start to hatch. What was it like for you to see these goslings hatch?

MQ: For me I was quite amazed because it reminds me on the birth of my two human children they hatch and immediately got a real tough bond to them and I dont want to say you loved them at that moment but it felt like something like love. Tell me about the first hatching the first hatchling was Glorio four thirty in the morning my telephone rang and there wasn't any more cowled take on the phone and said me come to the institute one is picked. So I jumped into my clothes and rushed to the Institute and I saw that there was a little hole in it and you can see gloriosa little body. After another three or four hours Glorio hedged. Then you had to wait another eight hours before you can take him out. There was these little yellow fluffy balls sitting and peeping on me like papa, take me out, take me out and then I took them out.

AMT: Well in fact you said something, first of all, Glorio you called Glorio, Gloria and then you realized it takes a while to find out if a gosling is male or female.

MQ: Yeah yeah. I didnt know.

AMT: But you when you said something to glory how. How how did he react.

MQ: He beeped he peeped at me when he was so used to my wife that he answered like [imitates goose sound].

AMT: And you picked him up and one when his feathers were dry and where did you put him?

MQ: I put him immediately under my jumper to give him my warmth then my body smell and there he stayed for the next hours.

AMT: When you tried to put him down what happened?

MQ: I had these little laundry basket and my plan was to put him down for the night. I put that right to my bed in the trailer down in the forest and I put him there and turned out the lights and then he starts crying and he wanted to me into the bed and so I took him out of the laundry basket and put him on my pillow beside my head and switch off the light again. It doesn't take longer than 10 seconds. He crawled under the duvet and slept there for the whole night.

AMT: On your chest?

MQ: Yes and I could move that all night.

AMT: Cause you're afraid you're going to crush him.

MQ: Yes can imagine the little gosling has about 80 grams.

AMT: So you lie there all night with this Goslin in your chest and when you when morning comes that Gosling wakes up what else is on your chest?

MQ: There was a lot of poop on my chest. Poop played an important role in my daily life from that point on.

AMT: Sounds like it, yeah. Now the thing that I was interested in some glory are hatcher first, but they don't all hatch together.

MQ: No they coordinate hatching because mother has to take care on each of them for the imprinting process so they communicate to each other when they are still in the egg and then head one by one.

AMT: And so you had to go through this little bonding imprinting process with all of them as they came out did you.

MQ: Yes seven times.

AMT: They're really binding with you. They recognize your voice you've got your lifeline but they really like their physical presence with you when you had them in that library Bousquet and you needed to sleep. What did you have to do sometimes to keep them quiet?

MQ: Later on when when there were seven goslings I couldn't heft them all in my bed so they had to sleep in the laundry basket and that they keep quiet. I had to put one of my hens inside the laundry basket the whole night so I slept on my stomach or my belly and then put a hand into the laundry basket and stay there.

AMT: They really liked you.

MQ: Yes.

AMT: So you were living in a trailer in the woods at the back of the Institute. So the plan was to stay there for how long?

MQ: The plan was to stay there until they can fly. Say about 10 weeks.

AMT: And so for 10 weeks what would you do with them?

MQ: Our day started in the morning when the sun rises and the sun goes down. So in the morning the first thing they want to do is go take a walk eat some fresh grass then sleep half an hour under my arm bar them pull over and then we mostly we went to a little lake quite near to the Institute for a little swim and then we we did some training with the microlights that they did follow the microlight and we had a routine which was quite the same every day.

AMT: And they would literally follow you like you were like like we see goslings following the mother goose in pictures going into the water and they found a martyr and so you had to do all that.

MQ: Yes, I did exactly what Mother Goose or Papa Goose does in in the wild.

AMT: So as they grew up what did you learn about their personalities?

MQ: That was quite amazing that they have different personalities and it was so. So they were so different from each other we had Paul who was very very caretaking and very lovely and he always looked to come to me to crawl under my pullover and then on the other hand we had Fred who was the revolution guy and always did the opposite of what I wanted him to do and then we heard Kelly mirro who was the Ramble girls and he always protects the others from Dark's or from treader does. Yes that was impressive which was someone that like to eat too much dead dead was an email. He ate so so much and he was too too heavy to fly in the end.

AMT: So how easy how difficult was it to get them to fly the way you needed them to in order to get the data for the project? What did you have to do?

MQ: We had a training routine every day. So we we went out to the airfield and then before they could fly at the age of 10 weeks I taught them to follow the microlight on the ground and then there was the day when their feathers were fully grown and they can and they were able to fly and suddenly I was still wobbling over the ground with the microlight then they fly. They fly beside me and so we we took off into the air and then this was the first time we were in the air together and this was one of the most impressive moments of the whole experiment.

AMT: What did it feel like for you?

MQ: For me advice was yes to see them in in their environment in their natural habitats and how effortlessly they can fly and how whole how they look at you and take you in the middle of their family as an integrated part of them. And yeah it was it was so heartwarming.

AMT: They would fall into formation too like they just like you just you were one of the geese?

MQ: Yes, yes.

AMT: We should maybe describe the ultralite it's, you're seated.

MQ: Yes it's one large wingspan above me and the propellers in the back and it was an electric slider. It was it was really low. The propeller makes it real loud the loud noise.

AMT: Did they fly high enough right away.

MQ: No they didn't not fall experiment and that was the problem. Dead was a point where the whole experiment. Nearly nearly failed because you normally dont fly for fun or only fly some. Some little circles around. If you are the only the only fly when they want to fly from a lake to a can feel it. And after several flights they realize that this doesn't make sense. What Popper does so after a few MediaStow turn left and landed at the little aviary and then they eat their food. And so I had to learn again and that was really a problem at that point.

AMT: Just like kids didn't want to get on an exercise. They just want to go back and eat.

MQ: A puberty thing or something like that.

AMT: What did you do. How did you get them to fly higher?

MQ: So I took Paul onto my lap and I thought I can drive with them in the microlife to the top of the runway and start again. And he said that my leg really calm and he wasn't afraid of the microlight and so I pushed the gas at full throttle and started with him on my leg and we gained about 3000 feet like that and at the height of 3000 feet I threw him out of the microlight and then V flew for half an hour together in real code and that was really amazing.

AMT: And did the others just follow?

MQ: No.

AMT: You had to do that individually.

MQ: Yes.

AMT: But once it happens once then they willing to do it again.

MQ: Yes.

AMT: There is something really fascinating you realised about their flying habits when they descend for a landing. What do they do?

MQ: When they want to descend. They roll them selves on their back so they really fall down like a stone.

AMT: And they're flapping their wings sort of like the deceleration process then?

MQ: Yes yes exactly. It was really fascinating because it was a behaviour which I didn't use before the show showed it to me.

AMT: And there were other behaviours that were not so important to the flying of geese and that had to do with the belligerence of some of them. Tell me what about more about what Freddy would be up to.

MQ: Freddy was as I said the revolution guy. He always he always wanted to do exactly the opposite. I wanted him to do and in the end I think he was one of the cleverest girls I heard because he realised pretty fast that I am not a real dead yogh was father so when he was old enough he just flew away. When he had the opportunity to do that.

AMT: At one point you lose him and they car you and there this goose and no one can get near it and you show up. What happens?

MQ: Yes she flew away while we were flying in formation and after half an hour there was a telephone call from from a woman from a little village and she said there is a girl was sitting in our garden and not moving and the schools is wearing a data log on its back and so it was quite obvious that this is Freddi. So I drove up and this was really a heart warming because the revolution guy Fred you was really happy to see me and he was so he did that little lovely sound like they normally do when the when they want to sleep that was a sign for me that he was really happy that I could take him back to us rather.

AMT: But Freddie keeps disappearing and you decide at some point that if he wants to go you need to let him go.

MQ: Yeah. Yeah. I put him into the lake on the lake and let him fly. But you couldn't get contact with the wild Grayslake yes. So after one guy we had to recapture him and bring him back into the institute because he was not able to find enough food.

AMT: And when he came back with the other guys they were hostile at first.

MQ: Yes yes. But that's quite normal. But after a while Martin comes and they were friends. So after that the whole thing was okay.

AMT: The way you describe it its almost like watching kids in a school yard and one decides to reach out and offer up the bar and other than the rest play ball.

MQ: Yeah. Yeah. This was quite obvious. Also when when Nemo broke his leg and couldn't move anymore the others followed about his position in the group because he was the boss and that's how nature is nature is really really crucial according to who is number one in such a group.

AMT: Tell me more about Nemo because he doesn't survive.

MQ: Nemo died because we think or I think that was the fox attack in the night. Nemo wanted to protect the others from the from the predator, the fox or the predator wouldn't have been a problem because every area is closed with a net and nothing can come in, but I think he perhaps gets stuck with this head inside the net or something. But he broke his neck and he was lying there in the morning and was nearly dead. So we took him to the vet, but he couldn't do something for him.

AMT: You were really attached to him. You were stroking his little head when he died.

MQ: Yes yes yes. It was hard. Hard times at that moment.

AMT: A lot of the geese eventually leave you. How does that happen?

MQ: That leave, that happened really unspectacular because I always thought that I can release them into the wild in the real ceremony or something. But it was really unspectacular one after another left while flying and they come and look at you and then they turn and fly away. That's it. So easy so simple.

AMT: But two end it up in a wildlife preserve.

MQ: Yes Neil and Calimero didn't want to fly away. So I put them into a wildlife park.

AMT: Do you ever go visit them now?

MQ: Yes yes because my little daughter, her school right beside the wildlife park.

AMT: And when you, do they come over to you, like they remember you?

MQ: Yes they do. I have to make these funny little noises and then they come and they grab your jeans.

AMT: It's kind of cool.

MQ: Yeah that's really cool.

AMT: So what did you end up learning from the data that you'd gathered?

MQ: We learned that we can estimate wind speed and wind direction but light that was quite amazing and that was quite cool and we developed bloggers which are really smaller than the loggers we use with the guys. And then you log as to where little pre processing onboard. So the data is really you have let's see in 2000 meters 20 knots wind from 200 and 43 degrees. So this is the kind of data form which is coming out of the new loggers.

AMT: And so what happens now? Like what will you do with that information? What will the institute, where will it go with that research institute?

MQ: We are an institute, which is interested in birds migration in general. So we take a lot of different birds we take some seabirds or some pigeons are some blackbirds on around the globe. And for this special project we want to have the wind speed and the wind direction of all the birds we text in the future.

AMT: And you learned a lot from the geese. What did you learn about yourself?

MQ: I learned from the geese, how important it is to stay in the present not only not not live so much in the past or in the future. Stay in the present and feel yourself as an integrated part of nature. This was what you what I learned from the guys.

AMT: You make the point that you were going through our separation at the time. So when you're with the geese and missing your kids.

MQ: Yeah. For me at the time with the years was a process to come back to myself and learn a lot. A lot of over myself and what what I wanted what I really want or what is really important in life I often go into the forest and into a tree and breathe. I can grab bag that feeling really easily. So this is what stays from the geese experiment, from the goose experiment.

AMT: And your kids would come and visit you with the geese.

MQ: This was really great because to see them, how they interact with the geese and happy they are because of seven little goslings. That was quite and really, really impressive.

AMT: And so you know that there are two at the Wildlife Refuge, the others do you ever expect to see them again?

MQ: No no. Unfortunately not. Only one Glorio was seen this summer at the Lake of Constance with his own family and the woman who saw him took a picture with a cellphone and you could see the little silvering on his foot and I could see the number on it and it was Glorio. So this made me really happy.

AMT: You raised him well. He's got a family of his own.

MQ: Yes I'm a grandpa now.

AMT: Well and you are you know in English, there's that phrase, empty nester, when all the kids leave.

MQ: Yes, yes.

AMT: So you are a true empty nester.

MQ: Yes, I am.

AMT: It's a fascinating story. It's really good to talk to you about it all.

MQ: Thank you.

AMT: Michael Quetting is the author of Papa Goose: One Year, Seven Goslings and the Flight of My Life. He's a laboratory manager at the Max Planck Institute for Ornithology and he joined us from Konstanz, Germany. That's our program for today. Stay with Radio One for Q. The author and actor, Joel Thomas Hynes is on the show to talk about the second season of the CBC comedy, Little Dog. Now after my conversation with Papa Goose, Michael Quetting, we're gonna leave you with some music from the late great, Tom Petty.

[Music]

AMT: This is "Learning to Fly." I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thanks for listening to The Current.

[Song: "Learning to Fly" by Tom Petty]

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Jan. 21, 2019 episode transcript

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