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The AIH Transcript for January 10, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight...

CO: Testing his patience. Ottawa says it's set to roll out a new test that will compensate more victims of thalidomide -- Terry Bolton just hopes the money will come soon enough for him to die with a little dignity.

JD: Doesn't amount to a hill of beans. President Trump insists the government shutdown won't end until he gets his wall which worries a soybean farmer who's not getting his government subsidy cheques.

CO: She made heads, not tails of it. And now the woman who drew the image of the Queen on a giant gold coin is following the trial of the people accused of stealing it from a German museum.

JD: The last snail in the coffin. The final survivor of a certain Hawaiian snail species has died -- our guest says it's just more bad news for native species on the islands.

CO: A real anti-climax. It's innovative, and remarkably high-tech, but an award-winning sex toy was not allowed at the world's best electronics trade show because it was deemed obscene.

JD: And putting on our thinking capos. It has been 20 years since the story of a complex mob boss changed TV -- tonight Steven Van Zandt tells us how he helped The Sopranos hit a series of sustained high notes. As It Happens. The Thursday Edition. Radio that makes sense of mobsense.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Victim of Thalidomide hopes compensation will allow him to die with a little dignity

Thalidomide Compensation

Guest: Terry Bolton

JD: Ottawa says it will extend compensation to more victims of thalidomide. The drug was approved for use by pregnant women to alleviate morning sickness in the early 60s. It caused birth defects that survivors are contending with to this day. Currently more than 100 Canadians receive federal compensation. But until now that number has been restricted to people with documents to prove their mothers were prescribed the drug. Now the health minister says that by spring more people with thalidomide related symptoms will be invited to apply under what she promises will be a quote "fair and comprehensive new approach." Terry Bolton is a founding member of the group Canada's Still Forgotten Thalidomide Survivors. We reached Mr. Bolton outside Gananoque, Ontario.

CO: Terry what would it mean for you to finally get compensation from the federal government?

TERRY BOLTON: It would mean living the rest of my life in dignity.

CO: And if you don't get the money, what happens? What's your life going to be like?

TB: Well if I don't get some kind of financial support soon because I do collect a pension but it's not enough to cover my mortgage, my electricity, my food, and anything else that should come up like a furnace that went on me this fall -- right now I'm in deep debt and there's no way out of it. I mean I need this compensation and I deserve it. I know my mother took thalidomide the entire length of her pregnancy. I have two living aunts, her sisters, that will verify that in [inaudible] if need be.

CO: How has thalidomide that your mother took -- how has it affected you?

TB: I have what's known as Phocomelia -- and my left arm, the bone that normally grows out of the shoulder down to the elbow, I am missing that. I have a hand with four fingers but it's not what you would call a normal hand and I do not have a thumb on that side. When I was born I had an extra thumb on my right hand and it was surgically removed which I can prove -- I have my birth registration that states that.

CO: There was the announcement in 2015 about the compensation for people whose mothers had taken thalidomide were affected by it and numbers of people were going to be compensated. Why were you not included in that?

TB: Because they wanted records -- that were destroyed by fires, that were over 50 years old. My family doctor has been changed, I don't know how many times because they die off as we can appreciate or not appreciate but you know what I mean -- and the fact is is that I couldn't produce the three criteria that were in place at that time.

CO: And what were the criteria?

TB: Well the first one was to be on an already documented list that the government apparently has. The second was to have an original copy of the prescription that a doctor would have filled out or the doctor signing a statement saying that he had indeed given the mother the thalidomide during the first trimester.

CO: And you couldn't produce those three things?

TB: They're 50 years old -- and like I say mine and there is documented proof in the newspaper archives, there were fires at the hospital I was born in. I was in the hospital at the time because I can remember to this day the nurses coming -- shouting at doors, telling us to stay in our beds -- that there was a fire in the basement. Well it turned out the fire was in the records department -- destroyed all my records. And I had so many surgeries on my left arm up until then as they were trying to correct it or make it usable so to speak, and none of that exists now. Well then not within a couple of years later my family doctor's office went up in flames and all those records were destroyed as well. Well then it wasn't a year later that there was a fire up on the main street in my hometown and the Bishop & Briscoe pharmacy that was in existence then -- all my pharmaceutical records that they even might have still had were destroyed in a fire there.

CO: And so that's why you can't...

TB: I can't give them the documented proof but I can give them all the physical proof they want. I've had problems with my heart that they called a murmur and it's actually called a Wolff Parkinson's syndrome and it's a side effect of thalidomide. And what it basically was was I had an extra valve and my heart that went that way for 48 years before they actually corrected it.

CO: What did your mother tell you about what she knew or did she give you anything that you could work with?

TB: My mother God bless her soul told me that I was a gift from God.

[Voice in background: And you are]

TB: Thank you. That's my girlfriend.

CO: Your mom told you were a gift from God, but did she tell you about the thalidomide? Did she give you any...

TB: She wouldn't tell me because -- well it's a long story and it's a personal thing -- and I've just no, I don't want to get into it on the phone.

CO: So what will happen now -- this money you've been fighting for years -- is it going to be produced? Are you going to get it?

TB: Well they promised in the 2018 budget -- Justin Trudeau got up and spoke twice right in front of the question period and said that it had been put into the budget and that it was to be dealt with and we're still waiting for it to be dealt with. And now yesterday, I mean it was great news, but it sounds like they're going to try and make us jump through some hoops before they finally recognize us.

CO: In the meantime how is your life? I know that we're speaking on speakerphone because of the damage that was done to your hearing because of the thalidomide. What would this compensation do? How would it help your life?

TB: I could you know retire in dignity because in the last few years I've had to cash in any kind of pension I had built up just to survive. Now I'm down to the point where I'm left with nothing but the hopes of them finally recognizing me so that I can you know enjoy life for a change.

CO: Some of the other people you're helping, what does it mean for them?

TB: Well the way I look at it, there's a lot of them that are worse off than me. I mean I've been somewhat lucky. You know they have struggled all their lives and a lot of them are in the same boat as me where you know they can't get work anymore, nobody wants to give them a chance, or hire them, and we're left you know thinking that well we live till 65 -- we might get an old age pension.

CO: And thalidomide -- the effects also shorten your life, is that right?

TB: Exactly. They only have a life expectancy of 60 years and most of them are hitting that plateau right now -- and we are amongst ourselves think that's the [inaudible] government's falling about because they want to see how many more of us will die and they don't have to pay us.

CO: How old are you now Terry?

TB: Terry I am 55 and I will be 56 in April.

CO: Terry I'm really sorry for what you're going through. I hope you get good news about your compensation soon and I appreciate you staying with us. Thank you,.

TB: Thank you very much.

CO: Bye bye.

TB: Bye bye.

JD: Terry Bolton is a founding member of the group Canada's Still Forgotten Thalidomide Survivors. We reached Mr. Bolton outside Gananoque, Ontario.

[Music]

Scott Brison

JD: He is one of the longest serving MPs currently sitting in the House of Commons. But today Scott Brison announced that he was quitting the federal cabinet and will not be standing for re-election in 2019. Mr. Brison who sits at the cabinet table as president of the Treasury Board of Canada says he is stepping down to spend more time with his partner and young children. His absence will trigger a cabinet shuffle next Monday. Mr. Brison also leaves amid a lot of tough questions in the House of Commons around his role in the Vice-Admiral Mark Norman affair. The Vice-Admiral faces trial later this year, accused of leaking cabinet secrets. Here's what Vassy Kapelos host of CBC's "Power and Politics" asked Mr. Brison in an interview today.

SOUNDCLIP

VASSY KAPELOS: I know that you say that the reason is personal but you had faced some questions, heated questions, in the House of Commons in the lead up to Christmas -- particularly around the Mark Norman trial -- Vice-Admiral Norman, to remind our viewers, is accused of leaking cabinet secrets related to a Davie shipyard contract for a supply ship. Are you leaving because of what may come out in that trial?

SCOTT BRISON: Absolutely not. That's a non-factor. That's a matter between the prosecution and Vice-Admiral Norman. This is a family decision and my family come first. Good management of public funds and governance is a key role of Treasury Board, and I've always done that job as president of the Treasury Board.

VK: Are you headed to the private sector next?

SB: Even if I'm in the private sector I'm going to find ways that I can help serve the public. I want to be a really good dad and a good husband and put my family first and that's what this decision is all about. If I ran again in 2019 Max would have shot me and I would be dead and Max would end up in jail and I don't know who would have taken care of Rose and Claire. So that's...

VK: What does that say about the life of a spouse in politics?

SB: [Chuckles] I think spouses have a say in this and Max may get tired and sick of seeing so much of me.

JD: That was Liberal MP Scott Brison in conversation with "Power and Politics" host Vassey Kapelos on his decision to step down from cabinet and not stand for re-election in 2019.

[Music]

Gold Coin Trial

Guest: Susanna Blunt

JD: Today in Germany four young men went on trial for an old-fashioned museum heist. In 2017, one of the world's largest coins was stolen from Berlin's Bode Museum. Which was no small feat -- since the solid gold coin weighed 100 kilos. Now that giant round shiny thing happened to be Canadian. And one of the artists behind it was hoping to see some justice for The Big Maple Leaf coin. We reached that artist, Susanna Blunt, in Vancouver.

CO: Susanna I know that you made this coin or you made the image a long time ago, but did you think that it was going to make news as something that was stolen in such a big heist in Germany?

SUSANNA BLUNT: Not in the wildest possible imagination.

CO: And what do you make of the lengths that these thieves actually went to steal the coin -- a wheelbarrow, a ladder, a skateboard -- I mean it sounds like a kind of amateur but at the same time quite a brazen break-in isn't it?

SB: I know it was very dramatic and bizarre. I really don't know what to make of it. Obviously they needed good transportation because it must have weighed really quite a lot and would have been difficult to carry around. But anyway I'm glad they were caught.

CO: Well and they're on trial -- they haven't been found guilty yet -- they said they didn't do it. Now this Big Maple Leaf coin that was stolen -- one of a half dozen or so that they had that, a huge thing with the image of the Queen. This is your image, isn't it? This is your vision of what the Queen would look like. You won a contest for this drawing, right?

SB: Yes I did. I was invited to make her portrait along with eight other artists. And it was a competition and they chose mine. So I was absolutely stunned by this and thrilled by it. And every time I go shopping and pull a coin out of my bag I still feel as though it's a story about somebody else.

CO: Because that image that's on all the coins since I guess 2003 when you won the contest to create the new image of the Queen that's the one we've had on the money since then, right?

SB: That's right. And I did actually speak to somebody in the Mint today to find out how many portraits have been circulated since that time because it's so surreal in the art world to have your work reproduced that many times -- and he told me it is over 15 and a half billion -- plus over 100 million.

CO: And so every time we take out a coin we're seeing your work of art in Canadian coins.

SB: That's a big number.

CO: But now at the same time every time you look at this story you're seeing your art in an image of something that was stolen and as we understand possibly never to be seen again -- melted down, right?

SB: Yes. Yes. It's really too bad they got away with it but it didn't belong to me personally so it didn't affect me in that way.

CO: So you've never had a work of art stolen besides this one?

SB: Well I have actually. I painted the Governor General's wife's portrait, that's Gerda Hnatyshyn, a number of years ago. And I also painted their dog. And it was in an exhibition and somebody stole it. So that was very upsetting because I did take it very personally. [Chuckles] It's really a shame because Gerda Hnatyshyn wanted that painting and I would love her to have been able to have it.

CO: And so this is the second time but a far more dramatic heist this time with this coin in Berlin?

SB: [Chuckles] Yes that's right.

CO: Well Susanna I doubt we'll see it recover but there are other copies of it and so it still exists and as you say every time we take out our wallets we will look at your artwork. It's good to talk with you, thank you.

SB: Well thank you very much for calling.

CO: Bye bye.

SB: Bye bye.

JD: Susanna Blunt is one of the artists who helped create the Big Maple Leaf coin. We reached Ms. Blunt in Vancouver.

[Music]

George the Snail

Guest: Michael Hadfield

JD: Hawaii has lost the last of its legendary "singing snails." George the land snail was approximately 14 years old. He was a member of the species called "Achatinella apexfulva" -- the very first endemic Hawaiian snail encountered by Western explorers in the late 1700s. Once the species was common on O'ahu. But by 1997, only ten known specimens remained. So in an effort to save the species, those snails were collected and bred at the University of Hawaii. George was the only offspring to survive. And now George is gone. Professor Michael Hadfield was the lead biologist behind the breeding program. We reached Professor Hadfield in Honolulu.

CO: Professor Hadfield how did you take the news that George the snail had died?

MICHAEL HADFIELD: Oh -- well without surprise but with sadness. We knew that that snail had been living all by itself. And so it was not a surprise, but still I think all of us that had watched that snail survive alone for so long were saddened by the news.

CO: And what did his death -- what did it represent to you and the other scientists?

MH: Well the end of another species. And I think "another" is an important word there because we've been watching these tree snails vanish from the forest for you know a long long time now. In the mid-1970s populations of tree snails that we had been studying for five or six years were literally you know exterminated right in front of our eyes by the predatory snails and rats. So it's kind of significant signalling kind of extinction in that we literally saw the last snail go.

CO: And this is one of the things about Hawaii and the islands is that there was at one time such extraordinary diversity -- not just the numbers of creatures like snails but just so many different types of them and it is almost like seeing a biodiversity graveyard these days in losing all the snail species isn't it?

MH: Yes that's absolutely true. And it's been going on a long time. You read the old records and you see that people talk about literally tens of thousands of snails in a valley and if you're really persistent you might find some old shells from snails that last died. But for the most part the lower valleys have been empty of their snails for a long time now. And so those of us who were studying snails knew that we had to go higher and higher and higher in the mountains to see them. So you see right now we're watching the summit snails also disappear. And you're right variety was such a keynote -- not just different species but even within the species. Some of them you know they were beautiful golden variants of it on one peak and beautiful brilliant green ones on another peak and so forth -- and so you watch these varieties vanish also. And yeah it's been instructive and depressing and you learn to understand both the processes of evolution and extinction.

CO: What did George look like?

MH: Well he was sort of you know not quite an inch long and sort of a dull grey-ish brown with white banding. So he was not particularly spectacular one -- of the species that apexfulva -- apexfulva often came in shades of grey, they were almost blue. They were the only snails I ever saw that approached blue. But there were some very handsome ones -- you know from almost black to these slight grey ones usually with some white banding -- kind of turban shape shell, not a really steep pointy one if you know what I mean. So he was a handsome snail and from a handsome species of shells.

CO: You mentioned the rats as a big problem for getting rid of -- biodiversity in general with snails. But also the wolf snail -- this rosy wolf snail was brought to the island to control pests, agricultural pests, and became just an insane destroyer of species, right? Tell us about the wolf snail.

MH: Yes so somewhere in the late 1930s somebody apparently deliberately brought in giant African snails and they exploded here. You know people's orchids and their gardens plants were being devoured. And so to combat the African snail they brought in Euglandina Rosea, the wolf snail, and release them on a wahoo -- and then claimed various successes for combating the African snail, which really weren't true. And instead what the Euglandina Rosea did was moved up into the mountains and began eating the snails. You know Euglandina can find their slime trails when the snails walk and follow them to eat the prey. So when it's through -- it is pretty much barren.

CO: Do you feel is anything that you and other scientists can do at this point to slow down this destruction of species like George?

MH: Sure -- well I mean where George was living was exactly one of those efforts. So in the 1980s as we watched so many populations of snails vanish, I decided that we had to try to take some of them out of the forest and save them. And so we set up a laboratory at the University of Hawaii and learned how to keep the snails safe while they increased in numbers. And so that lab eventually was taken over by the state. And they have a whole small building devoted to it and these big state of the art environmental chambers of really good people so I think they now have over 2000 stales there. And that's where George was living with I don't know another ten or twelve species that they're propagating regularly. And then in that field I think now there's a total of six or seven enclosure sensors so these are -- you take an area in the forest where there's still snails existing and you build a fence around it and then you put every kind of barrier on the outside of that fence you can think of that will keep out both rats and the predatory snails. And within those enclosures the tree snail populations are thriving. While outside those six enclosures they're in steep decline. So those are two ways which are expensive ways, you know, that the state, and the federal government, and the Army's environmental group are all investing in trying to preserve some of that native biodiversity.

CO: Professor Hadfield I'm sorry about George but I'm encouraged by the things that you're describing as ways to slow down this extinction of the snails. And thank you for speaking with us.

MH: You're very welcome.

JD: Michael Hadfield is a biology professor at the University of Hawaii. We reached him in Honolulu. George the Hawaiian land snail was approximately 14 years old.

[Music]

Part 2: How The Sopranos 'broke all the rules' and changed TV forever

Shutdown Farmer

Guest: John Boyd

JD: It is Day 20 of the United States government shutdown. And today President Trump is visiting towns along the Texas border to defend his hardline position for a border wall -- without which he has said he will not end the shutdown. 800,000 government employees at major agencies including the Department of Agriculture are affected. And that is the reason our next guest is looking out across empty acres with worry on his face. John Boyd is a crop farmer who has not received his government subsidy cheques. We reached Mr. Boyd in Baskerville, Virginia.

CO: John we are following this story of what's happening since the partial shutdown of the government in the United States. What's it meant for you and your farming operation?

JOHN BOYD: Well it has meant hardships for us right now. You know the government is shut down. We've been in the process of trying to obtain subsidy payment for soybeans which is roughly a dollar-65 cents a bushel and about 15,000 dollars for me right now -- as far as planting I'm kind of at a standstill until the government offices open up and I can receive my payment and start back to planting my winter wheat. So it's been very very frustrating so far.

CO: You're in the middle -- you're just harvesting your soybeans and getting ready to plant the winter wheat, is that right?

JB: That is correct. So we harvest and another crew comes right behind me and plants winter wheat -- so we double crop here in Virginia.

CO: The government subsidy cheques that you should be receiving but you're not because of the shut down -- this is for something else, this is an important other thing that you're dealing with, right? Which is the trade war that President Trump is having with China. How has that affected your operation?

JB: Again it's really hurt my personal farming operation and soybean farmers across the country. You know in 2012 I received roughly sixteen dollars a bushel for my soybean crop. And you know after the president came out with his tariffs -- it plummeted -- soybean business. And now soybeans are selling for an all-time low eight dollars a bushel. And that has been devastating so here I am you know with all types of debt and payments due and I'm only getting eight dollars a bushel. And what the tariffs did was once the grain buying stations or grain elevators got at full capacity, there was nowhere else to bring your soybeans to.

CO: And in the past those beans would have been sold to China where they purchase large amounts of your beans, right?

JB: Yes 90 percent of U.S. soybeans are bought by China. So when the president played footsie with China with these tariffs he really put the American farmers on the hook. And a lot of this stems from the president's leadership -- you know here he with you know with the tariffs, and you know the government shut down, and he's playing all these politics you know with the wall -- and you know farmers like myself we really don't care if there's a wall or not you know. And the very people that the president is speaking and talking about -- the immigrants and he's calling them [inaudible] and murderers and all of these things -- those are the same persons that are out here working in the tobacco fields. Those are the same persons that are picking cotton and tomatoes and onions and oranges. These are hardworking people. Is he referring to those people as the same thing? And I think the president is making a bad decision by holding America hostage you know for this wall that he wants so desperately.

CO: I think I know the answer to the question, but where do you stand on the wall?

JB: I'm opposed to it. I'm opposed to it because we have laws on the books and he says there's a crisis and the numbers are actually lower now. You know with the Trump administration. So there is no crisis or there's a crisis made by this president.

CO: Is there a crisis in farm communities? Are you facing a crisis?

JB: There is a legitimate and real crisis with American farmers. And I don't understand why a lot of the large scale farmers aren't speaking out about it. There is no way that they can sell soybeans at the same price that I am -- eight dollar and some change bushel -- and stay afloat and make it to the next harvest season.

CO: Do you think it's because they support Donald Trump?

JB: It is definitely because they support him. And my personal take is I believe they see themselves in President Trump -- you know a white male -- and we went through eight years of President Obama, the first African-American president in history, and now they get President Trump someone who looks like them, they're speaking their language, they support Trump -- and many said that they are going to vote for him again. But I would like your listeners to know I wouldn't vote for Donald Trump today, yesterday, or 2016 because I think it's bad for this country. The actions that he's doing right now has proven the fact that he's been bad for America.

CO: Okay. But he did promise, the Trump administration, did promise that they would subsidize you -- well to the farmers the tune of 12 billion dollars for losses because of the trade war with China. But the problem as you're saying is that you're not getting that money.

JB: I haven't even got it. I haven't even got it. And he made it seem on national TV it is going to be an easy process you just go to the local FSA office and sign up. And I did, I'm eligible and my acreage is reported by using the government plan. So all my acreage is there -- everything is there and I just haven't received my funds.

CO: So you're getting the soybeans out of your fields with no place to sell them or even store them. You want to start planting your winter wheat. Are you getting -- where will get the money for that? The banks? Will you get any kind of support?

JB: Well I don't know where I'm going to get the money -- it is my issue. And I've been making some phone calls about trying to get some extended credit to purchase more wheat seed and we would be able to pay our diesel fuel bill and stuff like that.

CO: What will you do if you don't have the money for the seed? You don't have a market for the soybeans. You don't have the subsidy -- what do you do then?

JB: I don't know. I mean pray -- I've certainly have done a lot of that over the past month or so.

CO: Well John I really hope that you get what you need. And thanks so much John. Take care.

JB: Thank you.

JD: John Boyd is a soybean and wheat farmer from Baskerville, Virginia.

[Music]

The Sopranos: Alan Sepinwall and Silvio Dante

Guest: Alan Sepinwall & Steven Van Zandt

JD: That is how it all began 20 years ago. "The Sopranos" opened with a mafia boss Tony, driving home through New Jersey. Some say that show changed television. Programs like "Mad Men" and "The Wire" and even "Game of Thrones" would not exist if The Sopranos had not broken the TV mold first. In 1999 the show was different. It was dark. It was funny. It cast an unsavory character as the hero -- made you like him. Tony Soprano was the head of a mob family, but it was clear from the very beginning all was not well with Tony.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Mr. Soprano?

VOICE 2: Yeah.

VOICE 1: My understanding from Dr. Cusumano, your family physician, is that you collapsed -- possibly a panic attack. You were unable to breathe.

VOICE 2: They said it was a panic attack. Of course all the blood work and the neurological work came back negative. And they sent me here.

VOICE 1: You don't agree that you had a panic attack?

VOICE 2: [Exhales]

VOICE 1: How are you feeling now?

VOICE 2: Good. Fine. Back at work.

VOICE 1: What line of work are you in?

VOICE 2: Waste management consultant.

JD: From the very first episode of The Sopranos that was Tony Soprano and his therapist Dr. Melfi. In a moment Carol we'll speak with Steve Van Zandt who played Silvio Dante on The Sopranos. But first, Alan Sepinwall is the co-author of a new book called The Sopranos Sessions, and the chief TV critic for Rolling Stone. We reached Mr. Sepinwall in New York.

CO: Alan for everyone who has watched The Sopranos and remembers it over generations, everyone has their moments, their favourite places, in The Sopranos -- what's your all-time favourite?

ALAN SEPINWALL: Favourite moment ever? My goodness. It's a small one, it's a relatively obscure one, where Tony is driving and a song comes on the radio -- Oh Girl by The Chi-Lites, and he had heard it earlier in the episode right before he found out that his ex-girlfriend Irina was dating Assemblyman Zellman and he starts singing along with the song and he's just happy to hear it and suddenly like he just starts crying out of nowhere and he doesn't know why. And he gets really upset and he drives over to the Zellman's house, takes out a belt, and beats him up for daring to date Tony's ex-girlfriend. And it's not a grand moment or anything in the scheme of the series but it's a reminder of just what an incredible actor James Gandolfini was that he could pull this out of thin air and make it as powerful as it was.

CO: The book you have written about it. It's just encyclopedic. And you and your co-author -- you know every episode, you know what happens to them. Why was this show so important to you?

AS: Well Matt Zoller and I -- we were the TV critics at The Star-Ledger of Newark, New Jersey, which is the newspaper Tony would pick up at the end of his driveway at the start of every season. So we were the hometown paper. So even if the show had been terrible we would have had to cover it exhaustively because a show set and shot in New Jersey and explicitly New Jersey in that way like we would have had to deal with that. Instead it wound up not only being the hometown show but one of the great shows ever made and we were essentially embedded in it -- Matt for the first three years, me for the rest of it -- and you know we interviewed all the cast. We talked to David Chase, the creator, a lot over the run of the show. When the show ended I was the only reporter Chase was willing to talk to. And even that was kind of reluctantly. So I mean A) it's a great show. B) it's the show that made both of our careers. So when the 20th anniversary came up it seemed like an obvious thing to revisit it and do this book.

CO: But you also have an understanding of what the show is really about. That it wasn't just the plot. It wasn't just the story of it. It was this whole weird idea of waste management which was the company that Tony Soprano was allegedly involved with but the whole idea of what this represented about not just New Jersey but about America. What was The Sopranos really about?

AS: The Sopranos was about -- I mean it's like Tony says to Dr. Melfi the first time he sees her, when he says you know I came in at the end. It's really about a reckoning moment you know for the American experiment -- for sort of civilization as a whole -- just where have we come, how have we become these people capable of doing a lot of the things that Tony does, and if anything you know a lot of things have slid much further downhill since he was you know complaining about whatever happened to Gary Cooper.

CO: You had interviews with David Chase, the show's creator and a man who created something that no one had seen before on television, what did he say about what he was trying to do with this series?

AS: Well originally he was just trying to tell a story about his mother. Tony's mom Livia was based on Chase's own mother and he would tell stories all the time to friends and family about just how difficult she could be and everyone would always laugh and his wife Denise says you should make a show about that. And he realized you know if it's a show about a screenwriter with a difficult mother, who's going to watch that? But he'd also grown up loving gangster movies and he thought like that would be able to graft enough on there to make it work. And so it started as a very personal story about you know a man going into therapy, a man dealing with middle age, dealing with sort of a sense of disappointment, and then it expanded out into this much larger examination of the American experiment as we approached and then past the turn of the century.

CO: Do you think that we would have the various series that we binge watch now -- would have come into place -- I mean starting with Mad Men, Boardwalk Empire, and then later shows like The Wire, Breaking Bad, even Game Of Thrones?

AS: It's the single most influential TV show, at least scripted, since I Love Lucy. TV comedy as we know it does not exist without Lucy. TV drama in the 21st century does not exist as it does without The Sopranos. You know every show on Netflix, any serialized show, any you know show with an anti-hero, any even any comedy with less than lovable characters, all of those can be traced back to things that The Sopranos did. Not that it was always necessarily the first one to do these things but it was the first one to do all of these things and be a really big hit. It broke all of these rules that the television business had you know unofficially held for decades saying, you can't have an unlikable character, you can't have moral complexity, you can't have narrative complexity, you've got to dumb everything down, you've got to make it simple, you can't have stories continue from one episode to the next. All these things that we take for granted in 2019 when we pick our favourite shows and we're going to binge something you know those are they are because of Tony Soprano.

CO: I don't think I could have binge watched the I Love Lucy show.

AS: [Laughs] Well when I think about bingeing a comedy is A) the episodes are shorter, and B) you know I had to binge some Sopranos for doing this and there were stretches of the show that great as they are like you really feel like you need to take a shower when you're done with them.

CO: [Laughs] Oh yes. Is there any line from The Sopranos that sticks with you after all these years that you find yourself quoting or exchanging?

AS: Oh all the time! Many of which I can't say on your show. [Laughs] But my goodness there's -- some of them are only funny because of the delivery of the performer. Steve Van Zandt who is you know much more famous for being Bruce Springsteen's guitar player -- you know he would do these line readings as Silvio the consiglieri of the family. And just on the page it's not a joke, and when he would say it, it would be brilliant. You know when Tony Sirico would say is Paulie Walnuts. He talked one time, I forget the set-up of it, but he's talking about how you know he's obsessive compulsive about cleanliness and just like his bathroom is so clean like you could eat maple walnut ice cream off of it. And it's like the specificity of maple walnut that makes that a great joke.

CO: [Laughs] Alan it's good to talk to you. Thanks.

AS: My pleasure.

JD: Alan Sepinwall is co-author of The Sopranos Sessions. We reached him in New York. Steve Van Zandt played Silvio Dante. He's also a member of the E Street Band. He's also in New York.

CO: Steve we just heard from the writer Alan Sepinwall and what he says about you and about your ability to turn some of the lines in The Sopranos into the funniest moments in that show. How did you do that? How did you make those lines funny? They're really dark.

STEVEN VAN ZANDT: Well that's the whole essence of the show isn't it? It is sort of dark and funny simultaneously [chuckles]. It's just really really good writing. You know that's what it comes down to. You know and the incredible ability of David Chase to create these characters that have so much depth and are so distinctive with very little information really. You know that's a real craft. That's the highest level of that craft of screenwriting. You know I think it's what distinguishes the show really in many ways from so many others and it makes it extraordinary show it is. You have you know 12 or 15 regular characters -- every one of which you could spend the entire hour with and probably have a good time and it would be very entertaining [chuckles].

CO: The world you live in though as your character as "Sil" -- Silvio but Sil was the name we all know -- at the Bada Bing! strip club which is [laughs] a pretty awful place but everyone hangs out there. But also you're part of a number of murders of other characters including Pussy -- which is a scene I don't think I have ever got over that. What effect did it have on you to live in that character?

SVZ: Well you know the wonderful thing about acting is that you get a chance [chuckles] to do things that you normally would not do or should not do. You know I like the character quite a bit because it was pretty -- even though he's one of the more evolved characters in the sense of being a bit more of a diplomat for the family and a bit more open minded about business and doing business with people outside of the tribe so to speak -- you know he still lives in a very black and white world, you know? That's right and wrong, the rules are very rigid. And I kind of envy that kind of clarity to be honest. You know it's nice to know the rules you know and we live in such a crazy ambiguous world -- and most of life of course isn't like that and you constantly have to decide, make decisions that are difficult -- but you know his job was to look from when they were a kids -- from when they were young to watch Tony's back, his best friend, he's the only guy on the show that did not want to be the boss. He liked being in that second position of underboss, and consigliere, and best friends of the boss, and understood that job very well. He knew the rules [inaudible] you know very well and followed them. You know he is just a wonderful character.

CO: The character "Sil" didn't want to be the boss. He didn't want to run the mob. But the producer David Chase, he at one point considered you and not James Gandolfini to play that role -- but you weren't an actor before you took on the part of Sil were you?

SVZ: That's correct. You know at a certain point in the discussion I said to him, listen I having a bit of trouble right now, feeling guilty taking an actor's job -- these guys you know go to classes for years and do off-Broadway and everything else. And I felt kind of guilty and he said well you know in that case I'll write you in a part that doesn't exist so you're not taking anybody's job. [Laughter] He asked me you know what would you like to do? And I said well I had this treatment I had written about a hitman named Silvio Dante that had a club but it was more of a Copacabana type of club in a modern day -- but he is kind of living in the past, hence his look. And you know had big bands, and the chorus girls, Catskills comics and the whole thing, but in modern day. And then this treatment -- the drama all took place within the club, sort of like a mafia version of Casablanca in a way. So he liked that idea and he went away a couple of days -- came back and said HBO won't pay for it, so let's make it a strip club instead -- and you'll be you know Tony's consiglieri and best friend. And I was quite comfortable with that because I was able to really use my experience in real life with Bruce Springsteen as a sort of a model for the dynamic of what takes place between boss and the best friends you know.

CO: I just to ask you about this anniversary that we're now at -- 20 years since the show launched in this month. But this is without James Gandolfini to be around to share the moment. What is that like without him? Is it the same?

SVZ: Well no -- I'm in a funny sort of frame of mind with Jimmy -- I really have found at this stage in my life I find denial quite convenient and I tend to lean on it. You know we spent the first half of our lives sort of fighting denial and confronting everything that we need to confront. But at this point in life I think denial comes in quite handy and you know Jimmy is quite a presence in my life. I mean I think about him almost every day. We're very close offstage. And you know I just, in my mind, I just think our schedules are just not crossing at the moment. So I don't think of him as gone really. Of course he was missed at the reunion. But he is always around you know in my mind.

CO: Steve it's good to talk to you. Thanks.

SVZ: Good luck with the piece.

CO: All right. Bye bye.

SVZ: All right Bye bye.

JD: Steve Van Zandt played the part of Silvio Dante in The Sopranos which debuted 20 years ago. We reached Mr. Van Zandt in New York City. And you can find more on the story and hear those interviews again or share them on our website cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

The Sticker

JD: In this age of Brexit, it is a tough job presiding over the U.K.'s House of Commons. Just ask Speaker John Bercow. This week politicians of all stripes are debating the country's exit from the European Union. That is ahead of next week's crucial withdrawal vote on January 15th. As you might expect things are getting a little testy -- like they did yesterday during the Prime Minister's Questions. Conservative MP Adam Holloway attempted to pick a fight, of sorts. He's the first voice you will hear followed by Speaker John Bercow.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: We've all noticed in recent months a sticker in your car making derogatory comments about Brexit. [Crowd noise] No, this is a serious point about partiality. Have you driven that car with a sticker...

VOICE 2: Order! I think the record will show, and I have the highest regard and affection for the honourable gentleman that I've listened to all the points, the only reason why I interrupt him at this point and I hope you'll forgive me doing so is that there was a factual error in his opening remarks. I'm sure it was an inadvertent error and I mean that most sincerely. But it was a factual error. The honourable gentleman said that in recent months it had been noticed that there was a sticker in my car. That sticker on the subject of Brexit happens to be affixed to in the windscreen of my wife's car. [Laughter] Yes. And I'm sure the honourable gentleman wouldn't suggest for one moment that a wife is somehow the property or chattel of her husband. [Applause] She is entitled to her views. That sticker is not mine and that's the end of it. Point of order...

JD: British Commons Speaker John Bercow showing off his oratory skills. And of course MP Adam Holloway speaking yesterday in London.

[Music]

Part 3: Maker of sex toy banned from CES showcase calls out gender double standard in tech

Medieval Painter

Guest: Alison Beach

JD: She looked fairly ordinary at first -- for a thousand-year-old skeleton. And those normal looking remains had been dug up from an unmarked grave in a medieval religious community in Germany. But when scientists took a closer look at the tartar on her teeth they found something startling: little flecks of brilliant blue. And for researchers that was a breakthrough finding on the role of women artists in the Middle Ages. Alison Beach is an Associate Professor of Medieval History at Ohio State University. We reached her in Bonn, Germany.

CO: Professor Beach what did you think when you first heard about these old teeth?

ALISON BEACH: Well I was pretty astonished. I had never heard of using dental calculus as evidence of anything. So when a team of scientists from Max Planck first contacted me, my first reaction was sort of ugh. And then within minutes I started to think about the potential. And given that what they had found was lapis lazuli, and I'm a scholar of medieval female book production in the 12th century -- and then the light came on and I thought this is really an incredible new piece of information I had never even thought of before.

CO: Why did they think -- these are archaeologists, they found these human remains, why did they think that you might be interested and you might shed some light on why there were these blue specks on the teeth?

AB: Well it's a nice collaboration story actually between humanists and scientists. And actually the bridge person was our PI Christina Warinner who studied pre-modern or I guess early modern history at Harvard as an undergraduate. So she had some inkling. You know she had the right instincts when they looked and they saw this blue. And then they got the report back saying that it was definitely lapis lazuli. She had enough sort of intellectual framework from pre-modern history to know this could be related to producing books in the Middle Ages.

CO: And that's your specialty?

AB: That's my specialty. They initially they asked another historian who to my horror said, oh no women would not have been entrusted with such valuable materials. And I remember (Christina) Tina told me she thought that sounded a bit narrow [laughter] and thus she would reach out to somebody else -- so thank goodness she did.

CO: What is it about lapis lazuli on the teeth that tells you that they were involved in book -- this woman that they found -- they know it's a woman's remains that they discovered -- a thousand years old -- why does that indicate that she may have been involved in the arts?

AB: Okay. Well lapis lazuli, to just back up for a second, is a pigment that is derived from stones mined only in Afghanistan in the 12th century. What makes it evidence for book production is this is what would have been mixed with generally with egg yolk and used as a kind of paint to put in illustrations in the manuscripts that were being copied. So it's significant that it's there at all -- it's an evidence that the woman was probably painting something, probably a book. But the fact that she was painting with such an expensive pigment, this would have had the same rough value as gold that they would have been putting in manuscripts -- and that suggests that B78, that's her technical name, was a scribe of some remarkable skill. This is not material you give to somebody who's just learning how to decorate books. She may even have had a reputation within the area for her artistic ability.

CO: I know that in your work you have been studying this and making the case that women were likely involved in the production of books, even though people have said no it was all men, it was monks who were doing it. So when you start to put this together, who do you think this woman was? And where was she living? Does it shed any light for you on who she was?

AB: Well absolutely. She was living -- well we don't really know where she lived so we can really only say where she was buried after she died. But we have a good sense that there was a religious community of women who were living there before. Women absolutely participated in book production in the Middle Ages -- the 12th century is my period of specialty. Scholars know this and some of them do. The problem isn't sort of saying yes women did this but to say here's some evidence, actual physical evidence, inscribed in her body that shows that this individual participated in book production and that this individual was female and this individual was trusted with the highest quality and most expensive materials.

CO: I know that you have in your career -- we were just mentioning this that you have been well writing and convincing people the role women have played in making medieval texts. And so how much of a breakthrough is this discovery?

AB: Well the breakthrough -- and this is important and this is sort of animating the discussion among my medieval colleagues -- for medieval historians the breakthrough isn't "oh a woman did this" but "oh my goodness look at this new form of evidence -- this direct physical evidence of something we knew they were doing" because we read it in documents, we sort of have maybe a list of books women copied. But here's an individual who seems to have copied books, so that's the sensation and added to that it's this really amazing new source of information about the lived life of a rather obscure or a totally obscure individual in the middle ages through the analysis of her dental calculus. That's a new form of evidence. And when there's a new form of evidence for medieval history, medieval historians get very excited.

CO: To actually have the remains of this woman, to be able to look at her, what's it like for you to be so close to a woman -- the type of woman you've been studying for your whole career?

AB: Amazing. And this is why the project has been so extraordinary for me. And I think probably why it's resonating with people who are reading the paper, it's so personal. I've held manuscripts copied by women that I know in quotation marks -- female scribes with whom I'm familiar through their work or I know their names because they're thanked in a letter or there's a list of what they wrote. But this, and I've never held the tooth -- I haven't seen the actual physical thing, but it would be an amazing connection to the human being -- one of these women that I've been looking for and studying for 25 years and that's a pretty great privilege.

CO: Professor Beach it's a great story and I appreciate you telling it to us. Thank you.

AB: Thank you for listening.

JD: Alison Beach is an Associate Professor of Medieval History at Ohio State University. We reached her in Bonn, Germany.

[Music]

Robot Vibrator

Guest: Lora Haddock

JD: The 2019 International Consumer Electronics Show is drawing to a close in Las Vegas. And as usual the innovation and tech geeks who flocked there from around the world had a lot of feast their eyes upon. CES enthusiasts could see an electric helicopter designed to be an air taxi; a walking car; and as we told you earlier this week, a toilet to offer you an even more quote "immersive experience." One thing visitors did not get to see however was a sex toy featuring sophisticated micro-robotics. Even though the device did win an award for its ground-breaking technology -- from the body that organizes the CES. Lora Haddock is the CEO of the tech start-up, Lora DiCarlo. We reached Ms. Haddock in Vegas.

CO: Ms. Haddock first of all what is it about this device that actually won the technology award in the first place?

LORA HADDOCK: Well it was a robotics and drones award that we won because the device is in fact robotic. We've been working and creating new micro-robotics in our lab in a partnership with Oregon State University and John Parmigiani prototype development lab -- and we've spun up a sexual health-tech device for people's vaginas in the last year and a half from ideation to nearly finished prototype and we're on our way to manufacturing.

CO: If there's a non x-rated way of describing it, what does it do? I mean in the robotic technology way.

LH: In a robotic and an anatomical way, it stimulates two erogenous zones in the female anatomy, stimulates both the grafenberg otherwise known as a g-spot and the clit organ. What we're trying to do is actually stimulate the entire clit organ and we're utilizing micro-robotics stimulate in the same way that you would feel with a human partner.

CO: You said in your literature that the robotic technology that mimics the sensations of a human mouth tongue and fingers, right?

LH: Correct.

CO: Okay so that's what they were impressed enough to give you this innovation award, you were going to be showing in the Consumer Electronics Show, then what happened?

LH: So we applied, we got the award, we were stoked and started planning for CES 2019 when about a month later we received an email stating that they were having troubles with getting us on the exhibitor floor. Then a couple of days later sent us a letter saying that we're having our award rescinded for -- they cited some legally -- stating that we were obscene, that we were immoral, among a couple of other choice words -- and our big question was: how is female sexual health and wellness and female pleasure, immoral or obscene? And the thing that we found very strange was that the expert judges were the ones that granted us the award -- experts in robotics -- but the administration at the CTA were the ones to turn around and say well it's not robotic.

CO: What does it look like?

LH: It's about four inches in length and sweeps down along the bottom and it has a curved space that goes over the top of the clitoris.

CO: And this would be on display, people would able to see it, handle it, see how it worked, right?

LH: Correct.

CO: Now you're told you can't have that on display.

LH: Correct. And the thing that we found arbitrary and capricious and very biased was the fact that there are in fact other products like this at CES that have been displaying for years and they've even granted awards to products that are in this industry. Right now they have a company called Naughty America that displays virtual reality porn and strippers on the floor. And last year they had a robotic sex doll for men, but for some reason they cited our product as being obscene.

CO: Is it your sense that the products that they do allow on the floor are oriented toward men?

LH: Yes it is actually. It seems to us that products that are explicitly allowed for men in an explicit sexual nature are allowed more of a pass than products that are geared towards female pleasure and female sexuality.

CO: The sex doll -- the robotic sex doll that was part of the show last year, what does it look like?

LH: It looks [chuckles] it's just a head that looks similar to a Barbie doll and a pair of breasts and that's all you can see. And it talks. You can change its face and you can change its accent to your preference and it gives oral sex.

CO: And this was part of the show last year?

LH: Yes. It actually gave an interview.

CO: Okay. And then there was something called Naughty America. And that's part of the show again this year, right?

LH: We actually met somebody yesterday that had gone to the Naughty America booth and it's basically a handful of people standing up at a booth with VR headsets on and they're watching porn -- to each his own. But if you're going to allow something like that on your floor, we don't understand why you wouldn't allow a product like ours to be able to display as well.

CO: Okay. So have you made the case that these things are allowed and that you're considered to be "obscene and immoral," how have you tried to explain this to the people?

LH: I sent a three page letter to Gary Shapiro himself and Karen Chupka -- with this situation.

CO: And those people, sorry, those are the CES people -- they are the ones that sent you the letter?

LH: Yes. The CTA, Consumer Technology Association, owns and runs CES, the Consumer Electronics Show every year.

CO: And how have they responded to your request to explain this contradiction?

LH: Well first after they called us "obscene and immoral" and we responded citing everything that was wrong with that. They responded saying, oh never mind -- there was just a misunderstanding -- you should have never got this far in the process. But the fact is we went through a vetting process by the CTA and then we followed that up with being judged by a panel of expert judges in robotics who had decided that we were at the top of the pile and they gave us an award. After that we asked them one more time to reconsider -- this is really not a great time for anyone to be overly patriarchal -- and they responded again saying now our product is not eligible for any category and we are being banned from the show.

CO: How important would it have been for you to get this award and to be able to be part of this show? What would it mean for your business?

LH: It really validates a product. It validates a tech to have such a pillar in the tech community recognize a product like ours. And for them to turn around and say after they had already granted the award it's not, is, to be honest, is a little ridiculous.

CO: We will leave it there. I appreciate you speaking with us Ms. Haddock. Thank you.

LH: Thank you so much Carol. I appreciate it.

JD: Lora Haddock is the CEO of the adult-tech company at Lora DiCarlo. We reached Ms. Haddock in Las Vegas.

[Music]

Cruising the corners

JD: The great ancient Roman poet Virgil once wrote, "They can because they think they can." Or in the original Latin, "Possunt, quia posse videntur." Now if you're thinking to yourself, "wow! Can Jeff really speak Latin?" Then you clearly have not been paying attention. The answer is yes. Yes I can. Because I think I can. And in the 60s or 70s when someone stuck Virgil's quote on a photograph of seagulls soaring in the sunset over a sandy beach the world learned that the reason birds can fly is simply because they think they can. Science had other ideas of course. But we know better now. And that very same mindset will make it possible for a group of eminent thinkers to embark on quote their "biggest, boldest, best adventure yet," next year. The intrepid explorers are members of the FEIC, or Flat Earth International Conference -- bent on exploring the four corners of the glo... the disc. The disc yes. On a luxury cruise. Details are scant at the moment. But what are details really? Distractions. Rest assured the Flat Earthers can and will embark on this cruise. Because they think they can. Of course our primitive and superstitious scientific inclinations suggest that such a cruise is only possible because of the ship's navigational systems -- designed and built entirely on the premise that the world is you know spherical. And that most, if not all, of the personnel required to safely steer such a ship still do believe that those principles apply. As one former cruise ship captain told the Guardian newspaper quote "I have sailed two million miles, give or take. I have not encountered one sea Captain who believes the Earth is flat." Yeah [chuckles] well whatever floats your boat Captain. Keep on thinking that. Because you can.

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January 10, 2019 Episode Transcript

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