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The AIH Transcript for January 9, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

JD: Tonight:

CO: One word: Jobs. As tensions continue over a B.C. natural gas pipeline, we'll hear why one First Nation has signed onto the project.

JD: Power doesn't corrupt at all! Guatemala's president expels a UN-backed corruption commission, saying it's a risk to his country's sovereignty. Our guest says it's really a risk to him.

CO: It took so long — just to hear "so long". After years of trying, Ti-Anna Wang is granted a visa to China to visit her father, who is in prison. But when her flight lands, she's told to leave the country immediately.

JD: Thinking beyond the box. In Toronto, another person dies in a clothing donation bin. And the head of a women's shelter says we need to think about redesigning the bins, and why people are crawling in, in the first place.

CO: A new "Gold" standard. The third verse is not the same as the first in an Attawapiskat band's cover of Neil Young's "Heart of Gold" — because it's sung entirely in Cree.

JD: And...the way of all flushed. In Devon, England, residents have created a monster in the sewers — a limbless, stinking pile of wet wipes and household goo known as a "fatberg".

JD: "As It Happens", the Wednesday edition. Radio that knows how these things come together: slowly but sewerly.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: B.C. pipeline follow-up, Canadian Ti-Anna Wang denied China entry, new fatberg

B.C. pipeline follow-up

Guest: Ellis Ross

JD: Today, the Wet'suwet'en Nation's fight over a northern BC pipeline project continues to dominate discussion in that province — and across the country. Earlier today, B.C. Premier John Horgan called for calm and more conversation, after 14 people were arrested on Monday at a blockade on the road leading to the Unist'ot'en camp.

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN HORGAN: It's our view that the process has concluded, but that's not the end of discussion and dialogue. We believe that LNG Canada has met the obligations that we asked them to achieve and we need to work together. Orders of governments, I spoke with the Prime Minister last night about this. He understands, the federal government understands, that British Columbia is unique in Canada. We have unseated territory in every corner of the province. We have court ruling after a court ruling that has affirmed we need to find a better way forward. And the old Indian Act management style still exists, and we have to find a way through reconciliation to bring together the various orders of government in Canada. And that's what we intend to do.

JD: B.C Premier John Horgan, speaking at a press conference earlier today. The five clans that make up the Wet'suwet'en Nation are adamant that an agreement between the gas company and the elected Indigenous band councils does not apply to them, because their land is unceded. But many First Nations in B.C. have signed on to the project — among them the Haisla Nation. Ellis Ross is the former chief councillor of the Haisla Nation, and a Liberal MLA. We reached Mr. Ross outside Terrace, BC.

CO: Mr. Ross, first of all, why are you, and why is your First Nation, in favour of this pipeline?

ELLIS ROSS: Basically because nothing else has worked in terms of trying to resolve our poverty issues that include suicides, children in care, our people going to prison, ending up in the streets of Vancouver, Prince George, and Terrace. Nothing else worked, even though we tried everything we could think of.

CO: What's your view then of the people who are protesting the pipeline at the anti-pipeline sites, the camps, that are set up that are now in confrontation with the RCMP? What's your view of them?

ER: Well, personally, I have no opinion of the non-Aboriginals who are there, who are just basically using the First Nations for their own agendas. As for the First Nations there that are blockading the pipeline, I'm only going to assume that you have no problems of suicide, or poverty, or unemployment, or actually elders not having enough food at the end of the month.

CO: And there are a number of First Nations and the elected band councils who have signed on to the pipeline. The people who are protesting it are hereditary chiefs and people who believe that those band councils, the people who agreed to the pipeline, don't have jurisdiction over the land. And they're trying to protect it. Do you dispute that?

ER: Oh yeah, because band councils are the authority by the people, as well as by the Indian Act, to look after the people's interests — including participating in environmental assessments that go back as far as 2004. We weren't sitting around just twiddling their thumbs. To engage in environmental assessment both at provincial or federal level takes a lot of energy takes, takes a lot of money, takes a lot of time. And for these people, that claim that we're just after a buck I never saw them at the table. I never saw them take any meetings. So highly condescending and patronizing to say that we don't look at the environment.

CO: We spoke with Frieda Hussein from the Unist'ot'en clan, where the protest is happening, and her view is that this is her home, that this is where she lives. And she says, as a Premier just said, it's unseeded territory, and they have no right to put the pipeline through there. What do you say to Frieda?

ER: Well, you know what? There's only two people I could say that that is true, and that’s the people that actually elect or allow heredity leadership to continue — or, in most cases, the courts. And there is already case law that talks who represents Aboriginal people in these situations. And there's a couple of decisions that say okay, it's the elected band councils.

CO: Another person I want to get you to respond t, Karen Ogen-Towes, I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing her name right, She's the CEO the First Nations LNG Alliance, and she supports the pipeline. But she points out that you know that there are two sides to this. I mean the elected or hereditary chiefs are advancing what they believe is right. She says but so are people like yourself advancing what you believe is right — that it is complex. There are two views, and they need to be respected. Would you agree with her?

ER: Oh, without a doubt. But for me it was never complicated, never complicated because I truly believe that everything that I was doing and then deciding on and implementing my territory had to affect the average band member — it had to. I had to justify everything. Am I going to get that person out of poverty? Am I going to stop that young person from committing suicide? I've even asked the public if they’d challenge me on this. And I challenged them how many funerals have you been to where your family and friends have committed suicide because I've been to a dozen. Every First Nations person in B.C. should know what it's like to be affected by drugs alcohol or suicides. It's way too common, and we're not talking enough about it. And every report I read, and even on the ground example showed me one of the fundamental building blocks to get people away from the poverty is to give them a job. to give a passion. Give the ability to be independent and look after themselves in their families. It's not a First Nations thing it's a human nature thing the ability to look after yourself and your family.

CO: But do you think that the people who are protesting this, the clans of the Wet'suwet'en, who are taking part in these protests do you think that they have not lost people? That they have not they have not seen the suffering and shared the suffering you're describing?

ER: You know I was called into the First Nations partnership a couple of times to help resolve some of these issues. I even went into their communities and then tried to give them our side of the story. And I really tried as much as I could to get these elected leaders to tell their stories in public because what they told me was horrible what they were going through. It was absolutely horrible. When I was chief councillor in my term in my community, I attended one funeral of a young person committed suicide. And at that point, I decided the next time someone commits suicide it's my responsibility because I never gave them a future. And this is happening all across Canada. And nobody talks enough about it in terms of a solution. All we get are these windbag politicians, both the First Nations and non-First Nations, talking about the tragedy, and how it's a crisis. But then after the election's over, they do nothing.

CO: What then do you think is the solution right now? Because you're describing something that is really very important right now there is this impasse. How do you think it should be resolved?

ER: Well, the way it is going to get resolved is the way it's been resolved for the last 14 years — ever since the Hida Court case came out with the duty to consult and accommodate. Now, that's been blurred but the NDP and the Federal Government's position. But ultimately there's only two ways it can get resolved. Number one, is the community decides once and for all. They put their foot down on who represents them. Or number two, it ends up in court. And if it ends up in court, they'll use existing case law principles that were decided on the B.C. courts as well as Canadian courts. And I certainly doubt the courts will look at anything political like that statement given by the United Nations, who have no business putting that kind of statement into Canada when they're 30 years too late. They should've been here years ago.

CO: So you think the way it can be resolved is it will possibly end up in the courts then?

ER: Oh, without a doubt. And God forbid, and no more acts of violence on that blockade for everybody’s sake. I watched the clip today on CBC actually where they either dragged or they fell a tree on the road, a green tree, that they lit on fire. I mean a green tree doesn't burn. I mean that the idea that this is gonna be a non-violent blockade that's out the window.

CO: Mr. Ross, I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

ER: Thank you.

JD: Ellis Ross is the former chief councillor of the Haisla Nation, and a Liberal MLA. We reached him outside Terrace, B.C.

[Music: Sombre]

Canadian Ti-Anna Wang denied China entry

Guest: Ti-Anna Wang

JD: Ti-Anna Wang dreamed of making the trip for ten years. And finally, the Chinese government had granted her a visa to travel from Canada to visit her imprisoned father — the dissident Wang Bingzhang. But at the border, it turned out that Chinese officials had other ideas. We reached Ti-Anna Wang in Jeju, South Korea.

CO: Ti-Anna, can you describe for us what happened when you tried to cross the border into China?

TI-ANNA WANG: So we were connecting through Hangzhou to Guangzhou. And as we tried to pass through the immigration customs, I was pulled aside. And after being held in an inspection room for about 45 minutes or so — 45 minutes to an hour — I was told that I wasn't going to be able to enter the country and that I needed to leave immediately.

CO: You're traveling with your husband, your baby girl. You had visas. What were the reasons they gave for not letting you in?

TAW: They didn't give us any reason at all. They just told us that they were following orders from the Ministry of State Security. And they said that they couldn't tell us any more than that.

CO: Can you tell us about the visit that you were hoping to have when you arrived in China?

TAW: So I haven't been able to see my father for ten years. When I applied for the visa, I wrote a letter. I included a personal letter in my application, saying that the only reason I want to go to China was to see my father and to bring my daughter so that he can meet his granddaughter. And I asked for a visa to be granted on compassionate grounds. I had imagined a very profound moment where I could be in a room with my father and my brother and my daughter.

CO: Your father is in prison. He is a political dissident and jailed in China for many years. Did he know you were coming?

TAW: Yes. So I had written him a letter in November, and my half-sister had seen him recently. And in the letter, I told him that I was planning on going. So another part of me just feels really terrible about all this because my father doesn't get visits very often. He only sees family members once or twice a year. And I can only assume that he was looking forward to this as much as I was.

CO: your father, Wang Bingzhang, why is he in prison?

TAW: So my father was a political activist. He was a pro-democracy activist. And he dedicated his life and career to the political transformation of China.

CO: He studied medicine in Montreal, in that right? In the late 1970s?

TAW: Yeah, so he came to Canada in the late 1970s and did a PhD at McGill University. But it was just after he graduated that he decided that he wasn't going to go back to medicine, and instead, he decided that he would pursue a career in pro-democracy activism.

CO: And he was kidnapped in Vietnam in 2002, and smuggled into China to be sentenced, is that right?

TAW: That's right. So he's been serving a life sentence largely in solitary confinement since… well, 2002 was when he was arrested. And he was tried and sentenced in late 2002, early 2003. So he's been detained since then.

CO: Your half-sister has visited him. How did she find him? What condition was he in at that point?

TAW: Right now, his biggest fear is passing away in prison. As you may know, there's been a few political prisoners recently who have passed away while in detention. And that’s sort of the fear is that consuming him.

CO: And he was anticipating your visit.

TAW: Yes.

CO: That must have been very, very difficult for him.

TAW: Yeah, I mean I am having a hard time. I mean he doesn't know yet. So I'm not really sure what his reaction to that will be. The whole point was to go and you know lift his spirits, and I just feel like this will just crush him.

CO: What's it like for you though? It will be crushing for him to learn, but for you, this decade you have spent trying to get this visa to go and see your father wanting to show him your little girl. This must be heartbreaking for you?

TAW: I mean it's really difficult to articulate how it feels just because it’s so emotional. I had been looking forward to this for a while now. And I really thought that it was going to happen. I'm not sure what this means for me? And I the first thought that I had when they told me that I wasn't going to be able to go was I just wondered if I would ever see my father again?

CO: Do you think you will?

TAW: I have to believe that I will.

CO: I'm sure you don't have inside knowledge on this, but the speculation is that this rejection of your visa has something to do with the increased political tensions between Canada and China since the arrest of the Huawei executive in Vancouver. Do you think that's possible?

TAW: It's entirely possible. But at the same time, this exact situation happened to me in 2009. And I almost feel like this is more agonizing than not giving me the visas at all, you know? To give me the visa and then have me make all the plans and to have me travel here, it's like it just feels extremely insulting and almost purposeful. It feels like I was tricked. I was brought here and I was given false hope and made to jump through all these hoops to go because it's extremely difficult to travel under these circumstances and with an infant and making all the plans, only to be denied at the border.

CO: Do you think it was also to add punishment to your father?

TAW: I suppose that's possible.

CO: I guess whether it's the intention or not that's what the result has been?

TAW: Exactly.

CO: Ti-Anna, I really hope you get to see your dad. And I appreciate you speaking with us tonight. Thank you.

TAW: Thank you so much.

00:17:23 - SPEAKER: M1

JD: Ti-Anna Wang is in Jeju, South Korea. For more on her story, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

New fatberg

Guest: Andrew Roantree

JD: It's big. It's ugly. And it's inside a sewer on the south coast of England. Yes, it's another fatberg. About a year-and-a-half ago, we told you about a massive fatberg discovered under the streets of London — an leviathan of grease, wet wipes and other unsavoury things found in sewers. Well now, utility workers in Devon have found a fatberg that's 63 metres long. That's more than 200 feet. And it is as rank and repellent as its gross London cousin. Andrew Roantree is the director of wastewater at South West Water. We reached him in Sidmouth, England.

CO: Mr. Roantree, what does this garbage beast look like?

ANDREW ROANTREE: Well, I guess it looks a bit like a massive amalgamation of sort of fat you might get out of your cooking, mixed with some pretty unmentionable things that might end up down the sewer. So yeah, it's a pretty unpleasant beast at the present moment.

CO: What does the beast smell like?

AR: It's not too bad. Aboveground, there is no indication of its existence whatsoever. Down in the sewer itself, it isn't too bad. As we break it up, it is going to start to emit some pretty noxious odors and gases. So it ends up being a job for full breathing apparatus for the guys who are working down there.

CO: Can you remind listeners what exactly a fatberg is and how it's formed?

AR: Yeah, sure. So fundamentally it's formed of things that we as water companies would say our customers shouldn't be putting down the sewer, that they shouldn't be putting down their kitchen sink, that they shouldn't be flushing down their toilet: fat and oil — that sort of thing. So after a cooking process, people washing dishes and pans and just flushing hot oil down the sink, which inevitably cools when it gets into the sewerage system. And as we all know fat goes from a liquid to a solid as it cools, and so that becomes the sort of glue in the process. And then we've noticed a real upsurge of people using wet wipe materials, whether for makeup cleansing, or baby wipes, or whatever. And people seem to think, and because some of the packaging says, this is flushable. And people put it down the toilet. And the reality is it's not flushable. It doesn't break down in the sewerage system. And so this is one of the main reasons why we seem to have found this phenomenon over the course of the last couple of years.

CO: So it's 63 metres long. It's the size of several buses in length. And what are you going to have to do to get rid of it?

AR: It is a bit of a physical process. It will require people in there. As I said, they'll have to wear full breathing apparatus in order to operate. And some of it will be a question of literally just digging it out. But then we will have some other bigger machinery with powerful water jetting equipment and tankers to help suck it out as we get it more mobile really.

CO: And I know that well a part of the fatberg in London got sent to a museum, and some got turned into biodiesel. What are you going to do with this one?

AR: We've already made some arrangements with the University of Exeter that they are going to do a sort of similar kind of fatberg autopsy to try and understand in a bit more detail about yeah, what is it? Where has it come from? And indeed how long has it taken to form? And then we are going to take the bulk of it into a local treatment works that has anaerobic digesters, and so that enables us to generate electricity off the methane coming off the digesters. So some good will come of it in the end.

CO: Now in our previous coverage of your fatbergs, we've also covered your efforts to try and educate the public about what not to flush. There's a public service advertisement that you have put out, and I just want to play a bit of this and get respond to it.

AR: Okay. Okay.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A toilet flush]

SPEAKER: Hello, can I have your extremely limited attention spans, please. I don’t have a job; I’m only eight years old. But it seems I l know more than you do about how to look after your loo. And specifically what’s cool to flush down it. So rather than giving us rules all the time. Eat your vegetables! Always do your homework! Don’t superglue slugs to your brother’s face. Maybe it’s time you lot learned something for change. We've made it really easy for you. Only for the three p's down the loo: pee, paper, and.

SPEAKER TWO: Penguins?

SPEAKER: He must be one of yours! Poo! It’s poo, Walter.

CO: That's very good. So OK, the three p’s: pee, paper, and poo. The only you flush down there. Do you think that should convince people not to do anything more? Not to put the wet wipes, and the makeup removers, and the baby wipes down there?

AR: That particular video has gained some real traction. People do understand that message. They are connecting with that message. Actually converting that into real behavioural change continues to be a bit of a challenge. As we say to people you know if they do this kind of thing, if they're lucky, it'll be down the street where the problem manifests itself. If they're unlucky, it'll be in their own house or their own garden where the problem manifests itself. So the best solution is just don't do it, and follow our three p guidance.

CO: Well, I'm talking about your problem. But, of course, it's not just your problem, is it? People are doing it here as well. So advice the three p's are going out as advice to our listeners as well. Mr. Roantree, it's great to speak with you. Thank you.

AR: Okay. That's great. Thank you very much.

CO: Bye.

AR: Goodbye.

JD: Andrew Roantree is the director of wastewater at South West Water, in Sidmouth, England. That's where we reached him. And if you can stomach it, perhaps wait till after dinner, you can find photographs of this massive fatberg on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih. You’re welcome!

[Music: Jazz]

Ron Pumphrey obit

JD: Since the news that Newfoundland broadcaster Ron Pumphrey died yesterday, at the age of 87, everyone has been talking about a man who loved to talk. Tributes have poured in for the loquacious host of shows like "Open Line" and "Nightline" -- who was also an author, local councillor, and spoken-word performer among. On Twitter, comedian Mark Critch noted that Mr. Pumphrey had, quote, "three autobiographies — and it wasn't anywhere near enough." I forgot to mention "recording artist": here are a few choice excerpts from Ron Pumphrey's spoken-word album, "How To Be Happy And Avoid A Nervous Breakdown - Newfie Style".

00:25:46 - SPEAKER: M11

SOUNDCLIP

RON PUMPHREY: now ladies and gentlemen, according to our motor vehicle license plates, Newfoundland is the happy province, and so it is. Newfoundlanders essentially are happy people. Now the thing is why are they happy? They don't all of them have the same material comforts and advantages of say the people living in Montreal, Toronto, or Vancouver. I'll tell you why they're happy. They're happy because consciously or otherwise, they follow certain basic principles of living. If you adopt these principles you too will be happy. You will get rid of your frustrations, your nervous headaches, your tiredness, your ulcers, your nervous stomachs. In short, if you listen carefully to what I have to say, not only will you be able to live happily and contentedly from here on in, but you will never have a nervous breakdown. Newfoundland principle number one is laugh. I mean learn to laugh from the stomach, from the muscles, from the heart — not just from the mouth and vocal chords, but from the deep inner self. Let yourself really go and laugh. You can't have resentments or hate or interior disharmony when you laugh. I mean really laugh. A young Newfoundlander went to Toronto and found a job and didn't write home for ever so long. When finally he did write a letter, it was a mere note. And in it he told his mother that he had a big job, good money, good food, lots of fun and places to go, and he wrote proudly. Mother, I've grown another foot since I came here. When the postman called at his boarding house the next week and gave the young man a parcel from his mother he opened it and found three socks.

JD: The late Newfoundland writer and broadcaster Ron Pumphrey, from his spoken-word album, "How To Be Happy And Avoid A Nervous Breakdown - Newfie Style". Mr. Pumphrey died yesterday. He was 87 years old.

[Music: Ambient]

Part two: Guatemala expels United Nations, donation bin death

Guatemala expels United Nations

Guest: Norma Torres

JD: When Jimmy Morales took office as Guatemala's president, he seemed to like the idea of collaborating with a UN-backed anti-corruption office. The office is known as Cicig, and its investigators had brought to light a multi-million dollar scandal that helped bring down the government of President Morales's predecessor. Earlier this week, however, the Guatemalan president announced that he was expelling Cicig from the country. The president's opponents then secured a court order blocking that expulsion — at least for now. They say the president is just unhappy because now it's his own government that's under investigation. Norma Torres is a Guatemalan-born US congresswoman. She's calling on President Morales to let Cicig do its work. We reached Congresswoman Torres in Washington.

CO: Congresswoman Torres, what is at stake if President Morales is able to follow through with his decision to kick out this anti-corruption agency in Guatemala?

NORMA TORRES: It would be a major setback for the fight against corruption in Guatemala should President Morales be successful. They have been responsible for investigating major cases. The previous president, the vice president, his entire administration, had to resign and went to prison as a result of public corruption.

CO: Is it fair to say that he is president because of the work that this commission has done in rooting out corruption in Guatemala?

NT: Absolutely. You know we refer to it as the Guatemalan Spring. People went to the streets and demanded a new government, demanded transparency, demanded its corrupt leaders to resign and to be held accountable for their crimes. So here we are. The people elected someone who wasn't involved in politics. He was a comedian by trade. Comedy is what he knows. And personally, I went to the swearing in. You know when he took office, he made a commitment. I was present when he asked Guatemalans to stand up — the audience that was there and the people that were watching on TV. And he asked them to take the oath of office alongside him — that they would help him and cooperate with him in addressing the major chronic issues of public corruption, which he saw as a cancer. But yet, here we are four years later, he has been facing charges of corruption, his family has been accused, and as a result, he's trying to impugn himself from you know having to face those charges.

CO: You described a very, very emotional, very important moment in Guatemalan history. But now the president is saying that the International Commission Against Impunity in Guatemala (Cicig). He says it has put public security and governability at risk. And he said it has repeatedly violated the human rights of Guatemalans through selecting and partial justice. What do you say to that?

NT: He is absolutely wrong. He is trying to impugn himself. He's trying to protest a group of corrupt officials in Congress that he has aligned himself with most recently. He has abandoned his campaign promises of transparency and accountability that he made. He was very supportive of their efforts until he found himself being investigated. And it wasn't it because it was a targeted investigation. When you open an investigation, you don't know what you're going to find. And unfortunately, he got caught up in that. But he should have known better. For him to come out and walk away from those promises I think is criminal in itself.

CO: I guess one of his main arguments is that he says that these U.N.-backed outsiders have no business interfering with Guatemala's internal affairs. And I mean I can imagine how the White House would respond if a U.N.-backed agency was investigating corruption in the United States. I mean even how the American people might react to that. So doesn't President Morales perhaps have a point?

NT: You know if you look at it from an uninformed perspective, I think you could absolutely come up with that. But when you look at the ten years of Cicig’s history in the country, Guatemala went to the U.N. and said we do not have the judicial system that is strong enough to investigate corruption to the level that it is. When the corruption is at the steps or within the White House in Guatemala, that is serious. And everyone was you know had some type of conflict. Guatemala came to the U.N. — came to the U.S. — and asked for that assistance. President Morales himself has signed the treaty to extend the mission of Cicig in Guatemala.

CO: You are in the United States House of Representatives. So you're Guatemalan-born, but you're now in American politics. Why should this matter? What's the message you're bringing to Congress about why it and President Trump should be supporting this commission in its work in Guatemala?

NT: It absolutely matters a great deal. We only have to look to our southern border to see the influx of migrants that are coming in. Many of them are specifically coming from Guatemala. We should care about that has no child like myself should have to flee their country in order to find a safe place to live. Little girls and little boys in Guatemala ought to be able to grow up in a safe environment in their country. And become the leaders of that country. They should not have to flee the way my parents thought that I should be sent away to live with somebody that I barely knew because it was not a safe place for me to be.

CO: We watched last night the president give his statement, again reiterating that he believes there’s a security issue. It's an emergency, a crisis, at the border and he wants a wall. What do you think he should be doing instead?

NT: I think, first of all, he needs to believe that it is not illegal to seek asylum. It is not illegal for people to flee a dangerous country, a dangerous situation, and come to our border and ask for help. But the policies of this administration has led to 22 deaths. Two children over Christmas died. We have a transgender individual, she was assaulted while in ICE custody. And then she was denied medical assistance. We have families that are being separated. We have children that are being sexually abused. We have children that are being physically abused while they are in the custody of the greatest country in the world. These are policies that this administration has put forward. Therefore, I say that they are guilty of premeditated murder.

CO: Do you believe that if they would support this commission and its work in Guatemala, it would prevent Guatemalans from trying to cross the border?

NT: Absolutely. There was a time in this country where we had a plan to help the poor Guatemalans in Guatemala, including recognizing the fact that there was a need for some people to flee. And to develop and work with partner countries like Costa Rica, like Belize, where people could ask for asylum legally. But yet, this administration took all that away. They took the ability of human dignity from these victims.

CO: Congresswoman Torres, I appreciate speaking with you today. Thank you.

NT: Thank you so much, Carol. And have a great day.

CO: Bye-bye.

JD: Norma Torres is the Democratic Congresswoman for California's 35th district. We reached her in Washington, D.C.

[Music: Jazz]

Vaping bathroom

JD: Apparently, some of the kids these days are vaping. And one high school principal in Ottawa is sick and tired of it. At St. Joseph High School, staff noticed that some students use vape pens in the school washrooms. So the school announced it would be removing the doors to the washrooms — not the stall doors, but the entrance doors. The hope is that it will expose the vapers in question — and extinguish their habit altogether. If students are caught vaping, they could eventually face fines to the tune of three-hundred dollars. Well, students shared their reactions to the new open-door — or I suppose no-door — policy with CBC Reporter Sandra Abma.

SOUNDCLIP

STUDENT ONE: Kids are vaping, and they're getting fed up.

SANDRA ABMA: And what do you think about that?

STUDENT ONE: Well, sometimes it's kind of uncomfortable to go in the bathroom while the kids are vaping and stuff.

SA: And what do you think about people vaping?

STUDENT: Just stay away. You don't want to be wrapped up with those kids.

STUDENT TWO: The principal mentioned it yesterday. He called everyone for assembly to the classes, and pretty much just explained how he's going to take all the doors off. There’s a new policy: no more vaping and all that. Me personally, I don't vape, so it didn't really affect me as much. But for some of the other kids, they kind of didn’t find it the best decision because you know some kids enjoy doing it. So some kids might just find other ways to do, you know keep it low key, keep it down.

STUDENT THREE: I know that all the concerns around vaping is usually directed towards our generation because it is mostly our generation.

SA: So what do you think about the policy of removing the bathroom doors?

STUDENT THREE: Honestly, I don't see that there's going to be much of a change. I don't understand why they would remove the bathroom doors. Like if the school goes into lockdown and you're the hall, you're supposed to go to the bathroom. And it's not really going to be safe to go to the bathroom anymore if there's no doors. And realistically, people are still going to vape in the washroom without the doors.

JD: Those are some of the students from St. Joseph high school in Ottawa, speaking to CBC reporter Sandra Abma about a decision to remove the entrance doors to the schools washrooms to snuff out vaping.

[Music: Ambient]

Donation bin death

Guest: Patricia O'Connell

JD: There are more calls now for clothing donation bins in Canada to get a redesign. Yesterday, a woman was found without vital signs inside a bin in Toronto. Just last week, there was another bin-related death, in Vancouver. Toronto Police still haven't released the name of the woman who died this week. But the staff at a local women's shelter knew her. Her name was Chrystal. Patricia O'Connell is the executive director at Sistering, a women's shelter in Toronto. That's where we reached her.

CO: Patricia, how did you learn that the victim of this week's donation bin death was actually one of your clients?

PATRICIA O’CONNELL: Well, I saw a written news item in first thing in the morning. And I saw the location, and I hoped against hope it wasn't going to be one of our women. But I assumed it was. And then the press arrived quite early at Sistering and told us the name of the individual. So I actually found out from your colleagues.

CO: And this woman's name was Chrystal, is that right?

PO: That's correct, yes.

CO: I'm so sorry.

PO: Thank you very much, Carol. She was a really important part of our community.

CO: Can you tell us about Chrystal?

PO: Crystal was 34 years old. Just a really wonderful human being. She was funny, compassionate, generous. She always shared her cigarettes with the other women. She was an artist, had a lot of love in her soul, and we all really adored quite frankly. Staff and participants yesterday were really, really sad. And there were lots of tears here. Chrystal, like all of the women that come here, had and have tremendous struggles. They are homeless. They have mental health challenges and addictions. And Chrystal always offered someone a hand, you know? So if someone was not feeling particularly well, you'd see Chrystal sitting with them or had her arm around them. People saw her when she wasn't at her best as well. But they always saw her bounce back. I guess we might call her a mensch. That would be a good term for her.

CO: When was the last time you saw her?

PO: I haven't seen her for a couple of weeks myself. But she was here Monday night. And so she was here till about 2 o'clock in the morning talking to people. And then Chrystal said goodbye to them and said she was going over to the donation bin.

CO: And why would she be going to the donation bin? This is where she died. What did she tell them as to why she was going there?

PO: What I found out since Chrystal passed, I had no idea of this, that lots of our women take things out of the donation bins. They told me that they usually go with two people. And so that one person holds the flap while the other reaches in with implement and pulls something out, or actually goes in the bin like Chrystal did and gets whatever that they want. And one of the women I was chatting with yesterday was telling me that she does this all the time with her boyfriend. They tell me that often times there's items of value, and the women take them and either barter them or sell them for a little bit of cash.

CO: And this flap, of course, is what was her demise, isn’t it? Because these donation boxes have these flaps to prevent people from reaching in and taking things, and that closed on her, and that's why she couldn't get out.

PO: That's right. It's ironic, right? People need the items that are in those boxes. And I guess they are distributed so that people get them free of charge or at a low cost from someplace. Say she was trying to get a piece of clothing out that she needed, she died because of it. It doesn't make any sense.

CO: And she is one of eight deaths — eight people die in these donation boxes across Canada. People are calling them death traps. Who do you blame for Chrystal’s death?

PO: I blame society quite frankly because Chrystal was one of the vulnerable people in Toronto. She's been homeless for years and years, and years. She couldn't access the services she needed. The shelter system again this year is full. There's no transitional housing. There's no supportive housing. There's no affordable housing. Last week I think all of the shelters were 98 per cent full. I certainly don't blame Chrystal. But as a country, a province, and a city, we have failed our homeless people. And they live in poverty — like such extreme poverty.

CO: Well, Toronto Mayor John Tory is saying what his response to Chrystal's death is that he wants a review of the clothing donation bins. And so what you're saying though is that it is not an issue of the bins. Chrystal didn't die in the bin because it was badly designed. She died in the bin because she was poor.

PO: That's exactly it. And when I saw his quote, really I wanted to scream. I mean I think he's a nice man. From what I know he does not recognize the crisis we have. And I don't know why he can't understand poverty? And it's not about the boxes. It's about poverty.

CO: But shouldn't the bins be changed? I mean because you know eight people died in them. Is there something that needs to be done to eliminate some of the problems of going into those bins?

PO: Yes, I think yes they would go back to the old bins that had big, wide slots. And people could put a stove in them or something. That would be fine. But to have anti-theft devices on something that people donated that's going to kill people and have killed people, I think it's ludicrous. And I think we could get rid of the bins. And again in a city like Toronto, there's enough social service agencies that deal with people in poverty that need donations that we could put together a system where people could drop off their donated items all across the city, and we could we could distribute them. I don't think it's that hard, you know? Like to put the amount of effort into legislating boxes and redesigning boxes and engineering solutions. It's not an engineering solution. It's a people's solution.

CO: It’s a human solution. Patricia, I really appreciate speaking with you. And I appreciate everything you're doing.

PO: Thank you very much, Carol. Take care. Bye-bye.

CO: Bye-bye.

Patricia O'Connell is the executive director of Sistering, a women's shelter in Toronto. That is where we reached her.

[Music: Ambient]

“Heart of Gold” cover

JD: In "Henry the Fifth", King Henry disguises himself to sit unrecognized amongst his soldiers, and get an idea of their morale before the big battle with the French. He asks one of his men what he thinks of King Henry. The man says "The king's a bawcock,". "And a heart of gold." I had to look up "bawcock" — it means "fine fellow". But we all know what "heart of gold" means. We've been using it since before Shakespeare used it in that play, in the late sixteenth century. But that idiom doesn't exist in the Mushkegowuk Cree language. According to Adrian Sutherland, singer for the Attawapiskat band Midnight Shine, "gold" is translated literally as "money rock". And since his band was recording a cover of Neil Young's "Heart of Gold" partly in the Mushkegowuk Cree language, "heart of money rock" didn't have the connotation he was alooking for. In the final version of that cover song, Mr. Sutherland went with a less direct translation, using the Cree word meaning "good-hearted". The result was the first single from Midnight Shine's album "High Road". And yesterday, the band posted the video on YouTube. It was filmed last autumn — and stars Adrian Sutherland, and a boat-full of warmly dressed members of the Attawapiskat First Nation. You can find it on our Twitter and Facebook feeds. Both of those accounts: @cbcasithappens.

[Music: Folk}

Part three: Norway kidnapping, Beaver deceivers

Frozen boa

JD: Amanda Stahl is used to seeing wildlife on her property in Toefield, Alberta. Usually, it's deer or coyotes. But while she was walking her dog this past weekend, she saw something completely out of the ordinary. Ms. Stahl spoke with Adrienne Pan, host of CBC Edmonton's "Radioactive", about what she found.

SOUNDCLIP

AMAND STAHL: I just went to take my dog for a walk. I try to take him for a walk every day, and get as much exercise as I can. And started to go down this little hill, and I could see a matted down snowed area, and something was obviously laying there. A little bit of a bloody scenario. And I just figured okay, coyotes another deer. But as I got closer I wasn't 100 per cent sure. walk up to it look like and I’m there's something wrong with this picture. It was partially buried in snow, so I kind of used my boot to kick it over. I’m like is that scales? That's not a snake. No, there's no way that could be a snake. But flipped it over and you could clearly tell from the pictures that it was a snake all right. I don't know any deer that have scales.

ADRIENNE PAN: And how big is this thing?

AS: I would say the snake was actually stretched out would probably be one-and-a-half to two metres long.

AP: Wow! And like pretty wide as well?

AS: Oh yeah. I’d need both hands to wrap around it, I would say for sure at the widest point. And it still had the head.

AP: Well, tell me what you were thinking when you realized fully that this was a big dead snake?

AS: I just I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I had to look closely for a while. You know people have been tagged. Like people are allowed to have the pets. I hate to think that someone actually purposely let this thing loose to get rid of it.

AP: What kind of a snake do you think it is?

AS: According to everybody, and I kind of did a little Google research myself, I believe it is specifically they called it a Colombian Red-tailed boa.

JD: That was Amanda Stahl telling CBC Edmonton about finding a frozen snake on her property. Alberta Fish and Wildlife told CBC that they couldn't confirm the exact species, but they do suspect it is a boa constrictor.

[Music: Flute]

Norway kidnaping

Guest: Jan Furuly

JD: Police and journalists in Norway have kept it a closely guarded secret for months. But today, a high-profile kidnapping was splashed all over the news. It was revealed that Anne-Elisabeth Hagen — the wife of a wealthy Norwegian businessman — was taken from her home on October 31st. She hasn't been seen or heard from since. Her kidnappers have demanded almost 14 million dollars in ransom for her return. Jan Furuly is an investigative journalist with the newspaper Aftenposten. We reached him in Oslo, Norway.

CO: Jan, how long have you known about this kidnapping?

JAN FURULY: Well, we got a tip from a source on the 17th of November last year that something was going on in the neighborhood 15 kilometres outside of Oslo. The tip was that a 68-year-old woman had disappeared.

CO: Why didn't you publish the story?

JF: Well, we sent two of my colleagues went there. And he took a lot of pictures of the house of this family. Five minutes after, they were spotted by some undercover agents, and my chief editor got a phone call from the police. And they basically said get the hell out of there.

CO: And what did you make of that when you heard that news?

JF: Well, we had a lot of discussion with the police. They explained us that they were working on this story. But they asked us kindly not to publish anything because this could mean that woman who was gone missing she could actually die. So our editors they decided to listen to the police.

CO: Why are you able to publish this story now?

JF: What happened was that we have done a lot of investigation. We've made a lot of databases about this. Who were the neighbours? Who were the owners of houses in the neighbourhood? Who were living there.

CO: We’ll just point out the Tom Hagen is the husband of the woman who is missing, is that right?

JF: Yeah. Yeah. And, he’s like the 172nd richest man in Norway. So he is not quite that rich, but he has some money. So yesterday, we got a tip from another source saying that something is happening now. There will be a press conference today. The police have changed their mind. They are now after ten weeks of investigation without any luck finding this woman or getting real substantial contact with the kidnappers. They decided that now we're going to go public with this story.

CO: So what are you reporting as to how this woman, Anne-Elisabeth Hagen, how did she disappear? How was she kidnapped?

JF: Apparently, police say the last sign of life or the last sighting of her was on the 31st of October, you know Halloween last year. She disappeared in the morning, or early before lunch. And since then, the police say they haven't had any proof of life from her since then.

CO: But there has been contact with the kidnappers?

JF: Apparently, the kidnappers left some paper notes explaining that this is a kidnapping, don’t contact the police. We are asking you to transfer some ransom money in crypto currency to us. And then there has been some contact on a digital platform between the kidnappers and I don't know who — Tom Hagan or the police. The police won't tell that, but very limited contact.

CO: But the police are saying that there has been no evidence offered by the kidnappers that she's still alive. Is that right?

JF: Yeah, that's right. So there is some growing criticism now from experts on police investigation. You know ten weeks of time that could be used for police investigation is a lot. And there’s sources now saying that the police might have lost important evidence. They might have lost critical information from witnesses. And that there can be a lot of cold tracks that you can't wake up those cold tracks because of the time that has gone since the kidnapping.

CO: I understand the police are also asking people — anyone who saw anything suspicious or noticed anything — it was on Halloween, so people that maybe helps jog memories that it was such a specific day. But, as you point out, that that was months ago. Is that a concern the police have that leaving it so long before asking the public for assistance that they've lost that?

JF: Yeah, I actually asked that question at the press conference today, and the police chief he confirmed yes, there is a danger that they now have missed important information. But there's also a very difficult decision to make.

CO: Did the police give an indication of whether they think that they will be able to recover this woman alive?

JF: Well, the basic problem for the police right now is that they have like a dead end everywhere. Their investigation hasn't led to any crucial findings. There is no technical evidence besides of this paper notes. They say they have no proof of life since 31st October. It's a huge problem for the police. So that was the main reason why they changed strategy in this morning and went public with it.

CO: Jan, it's a very troubling story. I appreciate you telling us the details tonight. Thank you.

JF: Yeah, thank you and goodbye.

JD: Jan Furuly is an investigative journalist with the newspaper Aftenposten. We reached him in Oslo, Norway.

[Music: Horns]

Jerry Dias

JD: Today, unionized workers at the General Motors assembly plant in Oshawa, Ontario staged another sit-down protest over the planned closure of the facility. That followed a 5-hour protest yesterday — as well as a meeting between union and GM leadership, in which the union's proposals to extend the life of the plant were rejected. On top of today's 2-hour protest, Unifor released a report on the lost employment opportunities that would follow the plant's closure. This morning, Unifor President Jerry Dias told CBC News Network host Heather Hiscox what led to today's action.

SOUNDCLIP

JERRY DIAS: For General Motors to blatantly, blatantly disregard the commitment that they made to young families. What do they expect? So General Motors is showing no respect for the community of Oshawa. No respect for our members. They should expect the same to be perfectly candid with you.

HEEATHER HISCOX: And we are seeing this — the sit down protest. Can you just clarify I mean is this going to last a long time, or is it just today? Is this the kind of thing that we are going to see sporadically going forward from the workers? What exactly is this going to look like?

JD: Well, first of all, it was clearly a sporadic reaction. It was something that was premeditated. And people were furious, and I understand why. So we'll see how things are unfolding this morning. This isn't a situation where we planned we're going to have a wildcat. That it was premeditated that we're going to have people sit down. But we'll see how this thing unfolds. People are feeling betrayed, legitimately so. General Motors frankly doesn't give a damn about them — the Twenty-five hundred families that are working in the Oshawa complex. Or you know the legitimately other seventy-five hundred people who are negatively impacted by their decision. Or excuse me almost twenty thousand people who are negatively impacted by this.

HH: You yourself clearly expressing that furious quality, and expressing as well deep disappointment yesterday when GM said no to your proposals. And you vowed the fight would continue. What form? Where does the fight move now?

JD: First of all, we're having a mass demonstration in Windsor on Friday. We're opposite the GM building. So it's starting on Friday, but it's going to continue. Look GM, they may have made the decision that they're going to close our facilities. But for them to expect peace along the way is naive. So we'll see how this thing unfolds. There's going to be a lot more actions. I'm not going to walk into the details right now, but people are furious, and legitimately so.

HH: You mentioned the possibility of legal action yesterday.

JD: Yes. GM signed an agreement that said there would be no closures during the life of a collective agreement. This collective agreement doesn't expire until September of 2020. So we will do everything to ensure that GM lives up to their commitments that they made in writing. So look, GM have frankly their word means nothing. And it's clear over their actions over many, many, many years that their word, their commitments mean nothing to Canadians. So look, Canadians are retaliating, our members are retaliating, and there's going to be more of this.

JD: Unifor president, Jerry Dias, speaking to Heather Hiscox on the CBC News Network this morning, about the protest at the GM assembly plant in Oshawa, Ontario.

[Music: Ambient]

Beaver deceiver

Guest: Jim O'Brien

JD: It won't be the first time the New Hampshire State Legislature has discussed problem beavers. But it may be, however, the first time Beaver Deceivers have come up. That's because the town of Hopkinton, New Hampshire, wants to install a Beaver Deceiver — a kind of beaver-deterrent — to put an end to months of flooding issues. But, for not very obvious reasons, one can't just go ahead and recklessly stick Beaver Deceivers wherever you want, whenever one wants to. No, one must get approval from the state. Jim O'Brien is the chair of the Hopkinton Select Board, the committee dealing with the beaver problem. We reached him in Concord, New Hampshire.

CO: Jim, I understand Hopkinton has a beaver problem, and they are not the only ones. But what is Hopkinton dealing with? What's the problem there?

JIM O’Brien: Sure, so we've had a beaver issue probably for about the last 18 months. And the issue surrounds an old road that has been discontinued. It was probably last used probably in the 19th century. But the road is still used for walkers and bikers. But over the years, beavers have taken to building a dam on top of the old road bed, which has caused a lot of what beavers do: a lot of flooding in wetlands, and has made that road impassable. And so local citizens have come to us and asked to remove the beaver dam and to make the roads passable once again.

CO: Okay, we know that beavers are very good at rearranging landscapes and waterways and everything, so not the first time that this has happened in New Hampshire or anyplace else. But how extensive is the issue with this road that they're trying to block?

JO: The funny part of this is kind of the story goes into what is allowed for a town to do. So because this road is discontinued, our town is not allowed to spend any money to maintain or repair the road. Because if we were to do that, if we were to start spending money on these old roads, they would become regular roads again, and so a lot of these roads are not used. So to remove the beaver dam would have made us spend some dollars. That's one way to do it. I mean then the people who own property around had differing opinions on whether the beaver dam should stay? Whether or not the flooded areas should remain? And sort of what a long term solution looks like here. So it was hard to come to a consensus because people wanted to protect the beaver, protect the flooded area, and to have the road open for use.

CO: What have they begun to consider? What the this method — this solution — they are looking at?

JO: So the solution that we put forward is sort of two pieces. At one time, we had a proposal to go and trap the beavers and remove them and maybe relocate them somewhere else. But none of the property owners would allow us to do trapping on their property. And so what we chose to do was to take down the dam by hand, and then install a pipe or it’s otherwise known as a beaver deceiver, which is really a long pipe that goes, in this case, it was underneath the roadbed. It sort of acts like a culvert; it allows for the water to flow between sort of the flooded area and downstream in order to keep the water level at where you would like it to be. It allows the beavers to continue doing what beavers do, you know live in wetlands and to construct beaver dams. But it allows for the water to not get trapped so far behind and cause damaging flooding.

CO: Okay. I know a lot of people living in rural communities their ears have perked up when they hear there might be something called a beaver deceiver. So I mean is it just like a regular culvert or why wouldn't the beavers — because they do like to block culverts — why wouldn’t they just block the beaver deceiver? What deceives them about this?

JO: It is a longer culvert, and so it stretches beyond sort of just underneath the beaver dam, and it's a longer pipe. And then it's also has mesh or cages on the end so that the beavers can try to plug it, but there's still enough running water to allow for the water to go through the pipe. So it's not maintenance-free; one would have to so go and clear the pipe. But it has been shown to be effective I think over 90 per cent of the places they've been installed. You’re able to keep your wildlife, and you're able to manage the water levels and manage the flooded areas.

CO: As you mentioned, your community is divided as they often are about beavers. Some people think just leave them alone. Others say let’s get rid of them. Do these beaver deceivers disrupt their habitat?

JO: Well, they allow the water to flow. And so some of the wetland habitat, some of the flooded area would be lessened because the water level will be maintained, but it does allow community to sort of have their cake and eat it too. It allows roads like the one here in Hopkinton to be passable, and still allow for the wildlife and beavers to coexist. The funny part about the story in Hopkinton is we've installed the pipe and the water levels maintain themselves. You know we could chuck a win up to the beavers, who outsmarted the humans in this case because what they did is they moved downstream, and they built a new beaver dam, which in turn re-flooded our road and sort of overtook our beaver deceiver pipe, which sort of leads to our next problem with how to get these beaver deceivers more widely used in our state?

CO: Which leads us to Bill-281, which is…

JO: Which is you know we asked our local lawmakers to introduce this bill because there wasn't clarity from our state environmental regulatory department of whether or not we needed to go through a lengthy wetlands permitting process in order to install this pipe? So there was confusion of whether or not we needed to or whether or not other landowners need to? So we sought clarity through this bill, which would say that landowners and municipalities like ours could install these beaver deceivers to manage our wetlands and flooding issues without having to go through when it sometimes would be a very long, expensive, and time consuming regulatory process to do this.

CO: And so New Hampshire is considering what it's called an act relative to beaver deceivers. How quickly do you think this will get resolved?

JO: You know, everybody gets a chuckle over that. You know, our expectation is there'll be a public hearing on this bill probably in the next month or so. In New Hampshire, every bill that's filed has the opportunity for the public to come and share stories or you know talk about why they support or why they don't. If our good house of representatives decide this is a worthy bill to legislate then it will move through the process, and then hopefully be put into law by June.

CO: So by June, New Hampshire will be deceiving beavers?

JO: All over the state we will have the right to deceive beavers. That's correct.

CO: Jim, it's good to talk to you.

JO: Carol, it’s great to talk to you. Thank you.

CO: Bye.

JO: Bye-bye.

JD: Jim O'Brien chairs the Select Board in Hopkinton. We reached him in Concord, New Hampshire.

[Music: Industrial]

Myron Thompson obit

JD: Myron Thompson called 'em like he saw 'em — even when the way he saw them rubbed people the wrong way. The longtime Alberta MP died on Saturday. He was 82 years old. The Alberta United Conservative leader Jason Kenney paid tribute to Mr. Thompson's 15 years in Parliament — first with the Reform Party, and then the Conservatives. Mr. Kenney wrote, quote, "It was a privilege to serve with Myron in Parliament. A true character, Myron will be deeply missed." Unquote. He was born in Colorado. And Mr. Thompson took Ottawa by storm with his plain-talking, hat-wearing, no-opinions-barred approach to Canadian politics. He once told reporters, "I do speak my mind and that's never changed." That was true when he met with George W. Bush to speak out for Canadians who supported the Iraq war. And it was true during a debate about who should get family benefits, when he said, quote, "I do not hate homosexuals — I hate homosexuality." Unquote. It was also true in 1999, when Myron Thompson took a call from "As It Happens" about a report on reforming federal prisons.

SOUNDCLIP

MYRON THOMPSON: they said they wanted to be delicate but discreet. They want to get rid of the barbed wire, to get rid of the image of being like a concentration camp. It's all warm fuzzy stuff to give people a good feeling about what you're doing, I guess.

MARY LOU FINLAY: What else are they recommending?

MT: Oh, there's a whole rash of things. Disarming guards, their long-term goals to get rid of all weapons. To make a provision where these people can live in like a community-style thing, and just unbelievable. It's like reading a fiction novel.

MLF: Do they differentiate between dangerous prisoners and others?

MT: There seems to be no differentiation at all, except that they say they do want to make sure that there is no threat to any of the guards. But they don't identify the fact that who these individuals might be. They do state in there though that sort of amalgamation of different types of prisoners. Putting minimum types, and medium types, and maximum types together would create a more healthy atmosphere. But like that's the joke of the century. Setting up a condominium-style prison and put all types of individuals in there with the idea that it's going to be good for them. I just don't know where they're coming from.

MLF: How would you summarize their philosophy?

MT: Well, it's a mix of unbelievable. Well, let me let me tell you this. It's seems to be summed up when they make a statement that when we're dealing with the prisons we must remember we are dealing with people and remember people's stories especially the offenders.

MLF: Well, the offenders are the people that they're dealing with in jail — not the victims of crime.

MT: But the report seems to reflect that the offenders are victims.

MLF: Well, some of them are, of course.

MT: Well, might be. But whenever you end up in these kind of places, it's usually because of a poor choice.

JD: That was former Reform and Conservative MP Myron Thompson speaking with "As It Happens" host Mary Lou Finlay in 1999. Mr. Thompson died on Saturday at the age of 82.

[Music: Indie rock]

Napoleon Gold

JD: In the summer of 1812, during his advance on Moscow, Napoleon said, "I have come once and for all to finish off these barbarians of the North!" We don't know the exact moment when he realized he was wrong. But he probably had an inkling by November, when his shrunken Grande Armee was retreating from Russia during a hellish winter. And he knew for sure when he abandoned his huge haul of treasure. That's been the rumour for the past 200-plus years, anyway: that his army had ripped off about 80 tonnes of gold from Moscow. And that he hid it somewhere on his way out. One of his aides said he'd stowed it in Smolensk Region. Skeptics believed that was an attempt to divert attention from the real hiding place, possibly in Belarus. People looked. But nothing ever turned up. Now, a Russian historian says that's not surprising. Because Napoleon really hid all the treasure near the town of Rudnya. In a pile of silt at the bottom of a lake. He believes Napoleon snuck off with tonnes of gold without anyone noticing, and his soldiers stuck it in a frigid lake in the middle of a blizzard. But some see flaws in this plausible story. For example, one Russian treasure-hunting expert said, quote, "It took a few hundred French cavalrymen just...days to build a...dam in the freezing late autumn, then construct an 'underwater crypt' for tonnes of treasure? Did they have scuba gear? It's pure fantasy." Unquote. Valid point. But you know people are still going to chase that fantasy. Because either they'll believe the historian should go jump in a lake — or they'll believe they should.

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January 9, 2019 episode transcript

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