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The AIH Transcript for January 8, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight...

CO: Remote possibilities. A Saudi woman who fled to Thailand found a network around the world ready to help her -- including our guest, a woman who left Saudi Arabia to make a new life in Canada.

JD: An inconceivable conception. After a woman in a vegetative state gives birth, the mother of a patient at the same Phoenix health care facility says she is desperate to get her daughter out.

CO: Points of and against entry. The RCMP crosses into a B.C. First Nations traditional territory to take down an anti-pipeline barricade -- and a nearby camp worries the police will be there next.

JD: From outcast to ballot-caster. Until today former felons couldn't vote in Florida, but now that Amendment 4 is in effect, our guest is celebrating a victory after years of fighting.

CO: Flippery slope arguments. Small communities in Newfoundland have been inundated with stranded seals -- and so far no one can agree on what to do about it.

JD: And the power behind the throne. You might need a backup generator for a newly unveiled "intelligent toilet" which has so many high-tech bells and whistles it's hard to get a handle on it. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that knows not everyone appreciates a surprise potty.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: How a Saudi woman in Canada helped Rahaf al-Qunun tell the world about her plight

Saudi woman Canada

JD: Australia now says it will consider granting Rahaf al-Qunun a visa -- if the United Nations determines she is a refugee. This past weekend Ms. al-Qunun's story sent shockwaves around the world. The 18-year-old Saudi woman was visiting Kuwait with her family when she decided to flee out of fear for her safety. She boarded a plane to Thailand where authorities there threatened to deport her. Now she is under U.N. protection in Bangkok at a safe house. We are learning more about Ms. al-Qunun's perilous journey and the people who are helping her. Our next guest is one of those people. She is a Saudi woman currently living in Canada who has been in constant contact with Rahaf al-Qunun. We are protecting her identity and her exact location for her safety.

CO: First of all can you just tell me what these last 72 hours have been like for you as you tried to help Rahaf al-Qunun.

VOICE: Well it was extremely stressful as we were doing tremendous work to get this account to the world and contacting whoever we could.

CO: The first tweet that went out, as we understand it, was from Rahaf herself. She wrote in Arabic. It was about 3:20 in the morning in Thailand. 'I am the girl who escaped Kuwait to Thailand. My life is in danger if I'm forced to return to Saudi Arabia.' When did you first learn that this woman was in the airport in Bangkok?

VOICE: She actually contacted us before she tweets this -- and we were in shock. And like someone who is asking you for help -- and I mean you don't see this in your life when you're like have to save a soul -- someone who is just like begging you to help. I just felt like, how can I help?

CO: And so this is even before it was tweeted to the world -- before all that began you knew about what she was going through. How did she explained to you where she was and how dangerous things were for her?

VOICE: I have known her like for a year -- but I know that she wanted to escape Saudi and her family and like her life and the abuse and all these -- you know the desire but you don't know exactly the plan or when.

CO: You knew that she wanted to get out, and then suddenly there she was telling you, I'm out and I can't go back.

VOICE: Yes. When she said they took my passport I said like, who? Who took it? And like she started telling me the whole story. It was shocking for me.

CO: Was there a network of people helping?

VOICE: So there was a campaign on Twitter three years ago -- started three years ago -- through this campaign there was some groups that have been established on other application or social media. I joined to one of the group a year ago -- here's when she was in the same group with me.

CO: Rahaf was in the same group with you?

VOICE: Yes.

CO: What was that group about?

VOICE: It was just a feminist group trying to end woman in slavery -- you know because we've been raised to be less than a man. We're not equal.

CO: I guess it's one thing for them to all be saying, 'we want our rights. This is our situation.' But then one of them actually left -- I mean that was probably the extraordinary moment for you I guess that you heard that this woman who was in your group has said, I've left.

VOICE: Because it's been like three years since I think this campaign has started, a lot of girls start to lose hope that government will ever end this system -- male guardian system. So when some of them started to flee and some of them started to have this desire to flee and escape -- a lot of them has their own reasons and most of us know this kind of life, you know? When we are abused. When we're -- we don't feel belonged there. When you have this awareness and you know you're right, you cannot start to feel anger till the moment that you want to do something.

CO: This woman Rahaf al-Qunun,18-years-old -- we spoke with the representative from Human Rights Watch who was trying to help her, told her to barricade herself in the hotel room. Thai officials said they're going to deport her. You and others were in constant communication with her during this time. How tense was that for her and for all of you?

VOICE: It was very scary because we were all the time on a group -- a group call. Some of us were sleeping and on call, you know? Because we need to like see all the direct messages on her account because all of us, the four of us, are locked into her account because there's a lot a lot a lot a lot of message -- we need to see the direct messages which one is important, and contact and reply to the journalist and other people who are important who can help. And there's some threatening messages from all people from Saudi Arabia. I have a lot of them from Saudi Arabia trying to threaten her -- like bullying, it's not nice.

CO: What did you think when you heard that her father had arrived in Thailand, in Bangkok, and the Thai officials were helping him connect with her?

VOICE: We panicked. She said she doesn't want to see him. She doesn't want to look at him. She might collapse.

CO: It's interesting -- there was a delegation of Saudi diplomats met with Thai immigration officials and it was taped, it was videoed, and you're laughing because you know what I am going to say -- that he said, that the Saudi diplomat said, when she first arrived in Thailand she opened a new Twitter account and she had 45,000 followers within one day -- if you had taken her phone instead of her passport we wouldn't be in this situation. What do you make of that?

VOICE: Oh my God. That was something like I was shocked that he said that because this is something like really against him -- against [chuckles] I don't know how to say this but it's not -- it was a mistake.

CO: What effect do you think that this has had on women in Saudi Arabia in your support group that you are part of?

VOICE: I'm actually feeling some kind of guilt because her story went viral -- and I've heard about other women like their fathers, their brothers, they just took their phone and trying to find if they have connection with her or if they wanted to flee or have this desire or -- it is scary, you know, even when you are trying to support this campaign in Saudi Arabia you always have to cover your tracks because they might take your phone any time.

CO: But you are here in Canada -- we're not going to say where and we're not saying who you are -- we're not identifying you. Why are you afraid?

VOICE: [Exhales] I have my family there in Saudi Arabia. They don't know. They don't know nothing about my idea, my mind, you know? I don't want them to know this.

CO: Would you be in danger if it was known that you are trying to help these women?

VOICE: I was talking to my father when I last visited my family in Saudi and my father just told me that if I'm thinking to just leave Islam and not be a Muslim anymore that he's going to kill me by himself. And I just got so scared. You know it's your family. They're supposed to love you unconditionally. They should want me very happy. But when you see your family turns against you just for your beliefs, really? I mean it's something so scary -- you don't know who to trust anymore.

CO: This campaign, Save Rahaf, that you and other women around the world launched, do you think there are other women that you will now be helping in the same way?

VOICE: Yes. Actually through her account when I was searching through the direct messages there's a lot of women asked me to help them. I can't help like this -- it's Rahaf and it's too much for me. But there is, I know there is, a lot of women who need same help and same support. It's a human right. Human. Women are also human. If you go to any organization in Saudi Arabia or institution to ask for any service they can ask you for your male guardian if he approves it or not. I have no choice as a woman in Saudi Arabia. If he lets you work, you can work. If he let you study, you can study. If he lets you travel, you can travel. But we're not treated as a citizen.

CO: Do you feel strong enough to mount this resistance that you're now part of -- do you feel you have the strength?

VOICE: Yes. I would do this to the end of my life maybe.

CO: Well I think you're also very strong and very brave and I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

VOICE: Thank you.

CO: Bye.

JD: That was a Saudi woman living currently in Canada. We are protecting her identity and her exact location for her safety and for the safety of other Saudi women she is in touch with. You can learn more about Rahaf al-Qunun's case and the Save Rahaf campaign on our website cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

B.C. pipeline arrests

Guest: Freda Huson

JD: Tensions are high today at a remote northern British Columbia anti-pipeline camp. Yesterday, 14 people were arrested by the RCMP at a barricade to stop pipeline construction on the Wet'suwet'en First Nations land.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: What side of history do you want to be on?

VOICE 2: Your children will cry!

VOICE 3: Your children will be ashamed of you.

[Chanting]

JD: That was the sound of protesters as the RCMP arrived at a blockade set up by the Wet'suwet'en First Nation. They are trying to stop construction of a pipeline. The RCMP advised protesters they would act on an interim injunction by the B.C. Supreme Court to remove the barricades. And they did. Today, there were also protests in support of the Wet'suwet'en across the country, including in Ottawa.

SOUNDCLIP

[Crowd chanting]

JD: That is the sound of demonstrators protesting against a northern B.C. Coastal GasLink pipeline in Ottawa earlier today. The elected Indigenous band councils along the planned route of the pipeline have already signed on. But the five clans that make up the Wet'suewet'en First Nations disagree. They say since the land is there unseated territory, their hereditary chiefs must give consent. Freda Huson is the spokesperson for the Unis'tot'en clan. We reached her earlier today at the Unis'tot'en camp near Houston, British Columbia, down the road from where the arrests happened.

CO: Ms. Huson can you describe the scene where you are right now?

FREDA HUSON: We're just sitting and waiting -- and a chopper flew over probably half hour ago, circled us three times on our healing centre.

CO: What's the mood there in the camp?

FH: We're just doing prayer right now for breakfast.

CO: Are there people from other nations -- I understand that you've have had support from other parts of Canada, from the United States, from First Nations elsewhere, are they with you?

FH: Well right now we have people that are here for healing. And they have got stuck in here because the police are blocking the road so nobody can come or go. And there was people here just visiting and had flights and now they're stuck here because they can't get out...

CO: Why can't they get out?

FH: ...for fear of what's down below. Because of what happened yesterday.

CO: The people who are there, are there are children with you?

FH: No. I sent my niece out for worry of -- I know their system, they'll try to say we put her in danger and the ministry will try and take her -- that's what I told the mom and I said no you can't stay here, I know their system, they'll use any excuse to harm us and they'll try to take your girl for me -- you need to take her home.

CO: And what about other children -- are no other children there now?

FH: No. No there's no children. But there is elders. My chiefs were trying to come here and they weren't permitted in. This is their home too and they are blocked -- they wouldn't let them in to their own territory.

CO: How long has your camp, Unis'tot'en, how long has it been there?

FH: Over 10 years. But I've been living here for eight, so it's not really a camp. It just developed a name -- the public started calling it a camp, but I have never called it a camp. It has always been our homes. I've been living here in my cabin and we build a healing centre so we could bring our people to heal here. And we used to hold territory [inaudible] like not all of it is ours but whatever is ours -- it's not a very big piece and we use that for all the cultural practices to teach to people that are in our healing facility and they're trying to tell us, oh you'll be fine, you just stay in your building, and we're going to put the pipeline through the rest of your territory. We need the rest of that territory. If that project comes through and destroys that, what are we going to teach?

CO: The project you're talking about is Coastal GasLink.

FH: Coastal GasLink frack gas -- they keep calling it natural gas -- if people research 'fracking,' it's a very destructive industry -- they pollute all aquifers, aquifers go into streams, streams go into rivers, rivers go into the ocean -- so everybody is impacted by this industry. And if you look at all the climate change that's happening and we're all experiencing -- farmers are experiencing bad weather that they can't grow their crops, people are running out of water so they can't grow crops, and if we run out of clean drinking water what are people going to drink? What are people going to eat? It's going to come to a point where the grocery store shelves will be empty. People need to wake up and quit chasing money and thinking these projects are so important to Canada. What about the water? What about our food? My clan is aware of that that's why we're doing what we're doing.

CO: Just to point out the Coastal GasLink has sought and obtained an injunction to get your check points -- they're calling checkpoints, taken down. And that's why the RCMP is now involved, is that right?

FH: Yes, but they did it falsely. We are the title and rights holder -- we keep saying this over and over. We have a lot of the historical facts, we have photos that we have never stopped using these territories here -- and for band councils to try to say they can approve projects and become partners, none of these pipelines going through the any reservation -- they're going through the Wet'suwet'en and hereditary chief's territory. And they have said no to the project -- so what did they mean -- meaningful consultation, when one party says no you still push your projects through and just go talk to other people that don't have no rights to make a decision on the territory.

CO: Just so people understand what you are referring to -- the First Nations, the elected band councils in Wet'suwet'en had -- they signed an agreement with the company, a 13 million dollar agreement to support the pipeline. I just want people to understand why there is this difference of opinion about that.

FH: The Indian act [inaudible] have always been in the federal jurisdiction -- and these projects are on hereditariness and it's considered provincial to the government...

CO: It's unseated land, that's the issue.

FH: Yes.

CO: Can you tell us a bit more about what people are doing to prepare for the arrival of the police? Are you nervous? Are you afraid of what might happen when the police will come?

FH: I am not nervous at all because I know I'm right. My dad always taught me if you know you are right you have nothing to fear. These guys are the ones that are in the wrong and trying to trespass on our territory.

CO: At the other checkpoint that was raided yesterday, they did a number of things to try and prepare for the police or to prevent the police from coming. They constructed some fires, some blockades, they had chained themselves to the fence. Are you preparing in that way for the arrival of the police?

FH: I'm not going to comment on that. All I can say is I know just from the footage they were all peaceful. They were singing. They were drumming. They were praying. They were very peaceful the whole time. And tactical team had no reason to be aggressive the way they were.

CO: The RCMP statement is pretty clear -- they say that they do not regard this as a police issue normally but they have this injunction and they are determined to enforce it. So is there anything really that you can do to prevent that?

FH: Nothing really because if I just let them in it's just like saying I agree with their laws which are lopsided.

CO: You're not going to let them in but you will resist them when they arrive then.

FH: No -- I will tell them they still have no consent and I will walk away.

CO: Ms. Huson I want to thank you for speaking with us today.

FH: All right.

CO: Bye bye.

JD: Freda Huson is the spokesperson for the Unis'tot'en clan. We reached her earlier today at her camp in northern British Columbia.

[Music]

Ex-felon vote

Guest: Desmond Meade

JD: Desmond Meade has been waiting a very very long time for this day. Today he and more than one million other ex-felons in the state of Florida were finally allowed to register to vote. A law called Amendment 4 just came into effect in the state. Mr. Meade has been pushing for it for almost a decade. Desmond Meade is the President of the Florida Rights Restoration Coalition, and an ex-felon himself. We reached Mr. Meade in Orlando.

CO: Desmond I know you have been waiting, well, for years for this day. So how are you feeling when you registered to vote?

DESMOND MEADE: Today when I registered to vote it was so many emotions that was going through me. I had tears of joy streaming down my face because it was a special moment -- and not just for me, but for my family that accompanied me into our local supervisor of elections office. You know as a matter of fact my daughter was the one who helped me fill out the voter registration forms -- and my son and wife were there as I turned it in. And so yeah it was a very joyful moment.

CO: And not just for you, right? I mean there was a lot of stories about just how emotional it was in the registration office today.

DM: Yes yes it was. You know even from there we hear stories throughout the state in various counties in Florida of people who were going there with their wives and their husbands and family members and then crying. Everybody was like so emotional. And I think it's -- part of that has to do with you know having such a newfound respect for the right to vote or what voting is all about. You know for many years, for over 20 years, I have not been able to vote. And so to be able to have fought so long and hard and finally get the right to vote back and to walk in that office to register -- it was yeah -- it would stir up some emotions, and that has been happening throughout the state of Florida.

CO: And Florida is one of the few states that does not allow any felons or did not formally allow felons to vote in elections. This has now been changed for well everyone except for those that have committed felons, sexual offenses or murder. So what does this day represent for people like yourself or people who've been in this movement of trying to get this changed?

DM: You know I think it's a couple of things that it represents. It represents that love can conquer all, right. And it also represents that what it means to expand our democracy. You know on November 6th when this amendment passed over 5.1 million voters voted for this. And you know in this environment that we find our country in where there's a lot of division and there is a lot of friction, to see that an issue as powerful as felon voting rights to be able to pass resoundingly with support from people from all walks of life, from all political persuasions, and it was able to pass because of votes of love -- for at least a moment the world was able to see that love could conquer all. Today as folks are walking into their local supervisors of elections and they're bringing their loved ones with them, that's that same spirit that we are embracing.

CO: You say love has lot to do with but politics has a lot to do with it as well, doesn't it? And the fact that there are so many more black voters disproportionately affected by this anti-felon voters situation -- even though the majority of felons in Florida are white. So why was that? First of all does explain why it was so disproportionately affecting black people.

DM: Yes that's a great question. You know -- and there's no secret that the history of felon disenfranchisement is based in a very sordid past where you know there was an attempt to prevent the newly released slaves from voting. But you know what I tell people like any tumor that's in the body, while it may originally be in one part of the body when it is left unchecked, it spreads to the rest of the body. And that's why even though we do not lose sight of the fact of the disproportionate impact it has on African-Americans, what we can address is that it has spread and impacted more than just African-Americans. As a matter of fact over a million of the people who were impacted were people who were not African-American. And so this became a rallying point for us to go out and say listen this is an all-American issue.

CO: Can I ask you your personal story and your own background and how you got involved in the voting rights movement?

DM: I got involved -- I guess I would like to say the old fashioned way -- that I'm a person that's directly impacted you know because of years of drug abuse, you know drug addiction, and homelessness. You know I was in and out of trouble. And eventually my drug addiction brought me in front of railroad tracks in 2005. August of 2005, I stood in front of railroad tracks waiting on the train to come so I can jump in front of it. You know that train didn't come that day. And I crossed those tracks and I checked myself in the drug treatment. And after treatment I went and I moved into a homeless shelter where while living there I decided to enroll in college. One thing led to another and eventually in May of 2014 I was able to graduate from Florida International University College of Law with a Juris doctorate degree.

CO: Congratulations.

DM: Thank you. [Chuckles] Thank you so much. But you know what I tell people that back then even though I overcame so many obstacles my story did not have a happy ending at that time because I couldn't practice law and I couldn't vote because of Florida's antiquated laws. But today I can tell you that there is somewhat of a happy ending because after all these trials and tribulations, after all of the blood and sweat and tears of a historic grassroots movement, today I was able to walk in to a supervisor of elections office and register to vote -- for the first time in over 20 years.

CO: Another congratulations. And you're president of the Florida Rights Restoration Coalition now -- what's next? Is there more to be done?

DM: Oh yes! There is much more. So first of all I do think that there is something special with how we won, right? To take a controversial issue such as felon voting rights in a controversial state such as the state of Florida in a controversial time that we're living in and to be able to successfully pass that with no opposition, begs to be investigated even more. And I do believe that somewhere in there is a secret sauce that could be a key ingredient to how we as human beings interact with each other in this world.

CO: Desmond you are an inspiration.

DM: Well thank you so much. And we want to continue to inspire people as well.

CO: Well I hope you do. And I'm sure you will. Thank you so much. Bye bye.

DM: Thank you. Have a great day.

JD: Desmond Meade is the President of the Florida Rights Restoration Coalition. We reached Mr. Meade in Orlando.

[Music]

Part 2: Mother guards daughter 24/7 at care facility where patient in vegetative state gave birth

Vegetative state birth

Guest: Karina Cesena

JD: The patient at a Phoenix health care facility has been in a vegetative state for more than ten years. So there was serious shock and outrage when she unexpectedly gave birth to a baby boy. Reportedly attendants at Hacienda HealthCare had not even noticed she was pregnant. Now the facility's CEO has resigned, and authorities are trying to identify the person who sexually assaulted the woman. Karina Cesena's daughter is also a patient at Hacienda HealthCare. We reached Ms. Cesena in Phoenix.

CO: Karina has it fully sunk in for you what must have been happening at this facility where your daughter is living?

KARINA CESENA: No it has not really sunk in all the way but it's still pretty unnerving. There's a lot of activity here so I'm just -- I'm trying to wrap my head around why not being addressed in a faster manner.

CO: And what are you doing as far as -- you've been spending a lot more time with your daughter, is that right? Out of concern for what's going on in the institution.

KC: Yes. I stay here pretty much 24/7. I stay in her room. I put a note on the door for no males to be coming in to do any checks -- it is only females. Her roommate's mother and I, we both agree that that's the best security measure we can take for our daughters because one is a provider in Tucson so she can't always be here. And so I'm always here so I make sure our daughters are both safe and are well cared for at this time.

CO: If you would can you tell us how you reacted when you heard there was this female patient who is in, what they call a vegetative state, who gave birth at the facility?

KC: As soon as I saw it, I saw it on the news, my body started shaking. I was confused. I was scared. I just moved really quick, jumped in my clothes and I just drove down here as fast as I could just to find out what was going on. And I just was scared so I started asking my daughter you know, has anything like this happen to you? And she can answer, she's got a lot of seizures, she was in a coma for four and a half months but she's come out of it and she's trying to get better but she has hundreds of seizures so it's hard for her to talk and it's hard for her to walk but she does understand what you're saying and what's going on.

CO: And has she been able to tell you if anything happened to her -- if anyone tried to sexually assault her the way that this other one allegedly has been?

KC: Right. No she has not been -- I believe her because like I said I had questioned her and pretty much drilled her and I just made sure because she'll let me know, yes or no. She can answer yes or no with her head in nodding yes and no.

CO: These must be among the most vulnerable patients in the medical system, right. I mean people who completely rely on their caregivers for everything. And to realize that possibly a staff member may have assaulted this patient, how are people reacting? How are other people reacting to this news?

KC: A lot of parents are very very concerned. A lot of the staff is very hush hush -- they have privacy laws that they are bound by. Hopefully this person will just come forward to ease our mind a little bit and we can start feeling a little bit more secure about this place because it was a good place and there's a lot more good people out there than bad. And we don't know if it's an employee, a family member, a stranger. We have no idea. So that's why we're begging and asking for whoever this was to please come forward. There was -- I don't know if there was any reports of her body changes or weight changes. Her doctor is very negligent because that's same doctor that I have from my doctor -- and I have only seen him two times in one year. And it was not very good because I had to confront him on why he's not talking to me and conversing and communicating with me or checking my daughter.

CO: When you say the doctors -- you're looking to see the doctor respond and the doctor who is supposed to be caring for her -- there was an unidentified source who told the Phoenix television that they didn't know anything until the woman -- she was moaning -- and didn't know what was wrong with her. None of the staff were aware that she was pregnant until they could actually see the crown of the baby until they were actually ready to deliver it -- what turned out to be a healthy baby boy, but nobody knew she was pregnant. What do you make of that?

KC: It's flabbergasting. It's unbelievable. It's surreal like how can you not notice that this woman had body changes, weight gain, breast changes. So this woman has been here for 10 years and then all of a sudden this baby is born and everything -- everything is so confusing right now. We got extra cops here. Security is beefed up. There's no cameras anywhere in here so we're trying to just figure out what is the best route to take to be safe again. And it's unfortunate that this event had happened for them to start taking those measures.

CO: When you say to be safe again, what are the feelings among those who have female family members in this non-profit -- is there some kind of investigation to find out if other women have been assaulted?

KC: I'm assuming that there is. I haven't specifically spoken to any officers or detectives. They haven't come forward to ask us questions. So a lot of parents are very upset. They're very mad. Some parents are moving their kids.

CO: What do you make of the fact that no detective has come to ask your daughter questions or you questions about what may have happened to her?

KC: That's a good question. I don't know what their protocol is. There's a lot of people that are coming forward as patients saying that whenever they're taking showers you know [inaudible] and nurses they just walk in and out. When you know patients are actually bathing themselves you know or they're laying in a gurney and they can't move or can't talk and they just -- a lot of privacy issues and integrity issues have been brought up.

CO: Is your sense that they're trying to regain the trust of the clients or is just damage control at this point?

KC: Trust has been severed, period. There's no more trust here because obviously if they're going to keep it hush hush -- and I understand that there's privacy laws -- that if they're not going to come forward and clear up the air for the things that they're saying that the news is lying about when I've been the only one reporting with every single newscast of what I've been hearing. And I have talked to parents. I've been talking to a few staff members, you know. It's just all coincidental, it's a lot of questions unanswered, a lot of uncertainty going out until we find who this perpetrator is.

CO: Well Karina I'm so sorry that you're going through all this but I do appreciate that you speak with us. Thank you.

KC: Oh you're welcome. Thank you Carol.

CO: Bye.

KC: Bye.

JD: Karina Cesena's daughter is a patient at Hacienda HealthCare. We reached Ms. Cesena in Phoenix. We have more on this story on our website cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Alanna Kelly

JD: Last summer, Castamet Media reporter Alanna Kelly was conducting a television interview at a Kelowna intersection when a male passerby walked into frame and hurled a sexually explicit phrase at her. The idiotic phrase which we are only going to repeat here as the initialism F-H-R-I-T-P -- is commonly used to troll female broadcast journalists as they interview subjects on the street. Typically the worst these harassers would face would be public identification, humiliation, perhaps losing their job. But in Alanna Kelly's case, there could be serious legal consequences. Six months after the incident in Kelowna, police have charged a man with causing a disturbance and there is a warrant out for his arrest. Ms. Kelly spoke to CBC's "Daybreak South" yesterday -- and host Chris Walker asked her how she felt about the charges.

SOUNDCLIP

ALANNA KELLY: You know what, I'm happy -- I mean this isn't about me. This isn't about the gentleman. I think there's a bigger story here. If it comes to the point where we have to have charges or talking about this today my hope is that people don't do it anymore. It's not funny. I mean I give kudos to police for doing something because maybe the next person who thinks that hey this is funny or this is a joke won't do it because of this.

CHRIS WALKER: I was on a cast and it's Facebook posting about these charges and I can tell by the expression that you've read the comments as well. A lot of the comments just dismiss this and say well can't you take a joke? You know and worse. What do you make of the reaction to that on social media which is kind of the opposite of the effect that you're hoping to have?

AK: Right. So when I first decided to say something about it, it was interesting to see a lot of reporters supporting me in it because I think if you were to put yourself in my shoes or you have been in my spot you understand what it feels like. I knew it was not okay and if I saw it happen to a fellow reporter or if I saw it happen to anyone, I think I would stand up and say something.

CW: Well that is interesting because you hinted at earlier, reporters don't like being the story. We do almost anything to avoid being part of that story. This was an exception for you, can you just reiterate why you felt that that was important?

AK: Yeah. You know after it happened I was really angry, and then humiliated, and I couldn't let it go. And I think as a female I'm just trying to do my job and that doesn't mean that I deserve to be harassed in public when doing my job -- because you not only ruined my story, because then I can't use that, right, I can't use that piece -- but then you've also violated me in public and humiliated me. So it was a hard decision for me honestly and it still bugs me to this day like it still gets to me. But I think if I didn't say something it would continue.

JD: Alanna Kelley is a reporter for Kelowna B.C. news site called Castanet -- she was speaking with Chris Walker on CBC's "Daybreak South" yesterday.

[Music]

German hack arrest

Guest: Julian Ropcke

JD: The first assumption was that the massive hack that had German politicians last week was the work of a sophisticated network. Kind of a shadowy cabal of tech-savvy-nonstate actors, perhaps a Russian troll farm, maybe. The reality, it appears was much more mundane. Police say that the man responsible is a lone 20-year-old student who lives with his parents. The hack dumped the personal details and messages of hundreds of prominent Germans online. Julian Ropcke is the political editor for Bild newspaper. We reached him in Berlin.

CO: Julian what can you tell us so far about this young man who pulled off this massive hack?

JULIAN ROPCKE: We know that he is 20-years-old. He has a brother. And he's living in a quite small town -- 35,000 habitants in the German country or county of Hesse. And well he still went to school.

CO: He lives with his parents, right?

JR: He lives with his parents exactly. He lives in the house of his parents and we also talk to one of his friends -- well not friends but his schoolmates today, and he said that this person was a very calm person, a person who was not very much social with his classmates, was most times at home -- sitting in his own room and doing his own stuff.

CO: And playing on his computer a lot.

JR: Yes. Obviously from what we see right now he apparently was very much on his computer not just over the past weeks but also over the past year. He has a long history of hacking. I mean we try to find him and we found at least avatar -- so the avatar behind the hacker. On Saturday evening and today turned out that we found the right person so a person who attacks YouTubers and attacks other well social media stars if you want, German social media stars -- and it seems like this still has to be investigated that he turns from YouTube stars to politicians in the middle to autumn last year.

CO: And that's when it got to be quite a concern to police when it turned to getting the information of the politicians. He's confessed to police, what were his motives? Why did he do it?

JR: From what we heard -- he confessed to police that he hacked the people because he was angry at what they said. This is what he said. He was angry is what they said. And honestly I have to say that this is not quite convincing for me. We have seen some conversations between him and the YouTube activists -- they were very frank and also sometimes vulgar. So he insulted them and he wanted their range and their fame. However so far he was not active in politics at all. And it's also quite hard to understand that he was angry at what five fractions of the German parliament, the Bundestag, were saying. And he was not angry at what the AfD, the right-wing party, was saying.

CO: Okay so it may have been political in fact in spite what he is saying.

JR: Yes there are some contradiction about this. I mean this is for sure because we also had one of the witnesses who was the main witness living in Koblenz he was talking to German police and he asked him once why you are not hacking the AfD? And he said 'well you know what? They are not so bad.' So there must be some political motivation in why or why not he hacked politicians.

CO: What exactly did he hack? What information was he able to get and put out publicly?

JR: Yeah not only among the German media landscape but especially among newspapers that I'm working for -- we decided that we will not give specific information about what he had about which person. Generally I can say that there are almost 1,000 politicians affected. And for most of them he just had the telephone numbers and their private addresses. So the mobile numbers. However from between 40 to 60 parliamentarians, he had much more information. So going from well not so sensitive information like what they were tweeting to others or direct messaging to others over Twitter, going up to more sensitive information like how they were planning their next steps with political friends, how they were talking to journalists, how they were talking within their families -- up to very very sensitive information which goes up to sexual orientation and it goes up to relationships with people they are not officially related to.

CO: So very intimate details then?

JR: Absolutely. And we are quite certain that if certain people see this material, especially in the personal environment of the politicians, this I mean has the potential to destroy families. And I think this is really striking about the material.

CO: This fellow, 20-years-old, he says he's not an expertise -- he hasn't been trained in IT. He is what some are saying is part of this growing generation of young people these 'kinder-criminals' like playroom criminals. It seems like it was pretty easy for him to hack this information.

JR: Yes it seems like that he did not use any advanced software to do it. However we have one case of YouTuber who said today how he did it. And he basically said that it was his own fault because he hacked his Twitter by not going directly into Twitter because this person had a two factor security check. But he didn't have a two factor a security mechanism for his Gmail account, so this person found the password for his Gmail account and then brought emails to Twitter -- pretending to be the other person and convince the person that Twitter that he would deactivate the two factor security check and then he could go into Twitter.

CO: What you have described -- a lot of people are probably thinking, 'oh my gosh! That could happen to me. I have a similar setup or whatever. This sounds familiar.' Right? So if this is how kind of loosey-goosey peoples accounts are, how easy -- what has this revealed about how easy it would be for say a more sophisticated entity or some cyber terrorism to be able to hack into German politicians accounts?

JR: Yes absolutely. I mean this is the big concern right now. I mean if one person, 20-year-old, still living at home, and being a pupil, can achieve so much -- I think this rings the alarm bells.

CO: Okay well a cautionary tale for a lot of people, Julian. And I appreciate you telling us this story. Thank you.

JR: Thank you.

JD: Julian Ropcke is the political editor for Bild newspaper. We reached him in Berlin.

[Music]

An intelligent toilet

JD: Dateline: Las Vegas, Nevada.

[Music]

JD: Every year at this time, we're inundated with reports about the exciting new products unveiled at the annual Consumer Electronics Show. Products that are the latest in tech, super-cool, super-sophisticated, usually, superfluous. This year's show just kicked off in Vegas and we've already seen hundreds of cutting edge devices that connect you to everything and connect everything to everything else. And before you ask: yes, obviously that includes toilets. You know how right now toilets are really just kind of a cold chairs where you dispose with your waste as quietly as possible under stupid normal coloured lights, well not anymore, soon! Introducing the Numi 2.0 Intelligent Toilet from Kohler! You wanted "exceptional water efficiency, personalized cleansing, and dryer functions, a heated seat, and high quality built-in speakers?" It's got them according to the press release I just quoted from. Plus the Numi 2.0 has "interactive multi-coloured ambient and surround lighting," which is key. And Amazon's "Alexa" built right in, so you can check the weather from your bathroom or do whatever else you do with Alexa. Everything has been selected to optimize your toilet experience. Everything except the wording in that press release which says quote, “these lighting and audio enhancements create a fully-immersive experience for homeowners." Now see the one thing I particularly do not want from a toilet is a fully-immersive experience.

[Music]

Part 3: 'Of course' Turkey will eliminate Kurdish forces if U.S. leaves Syria, says former adviser

Syria: Erdogan

Guest: Osman Sert

JD: It was billed as a tour to reassure U.S. allies in the Middle East after Donald Trump's shock announcement that he was withdrawing from Syria. But Mr. Trump's national security adviser left Turkey today after that country's president blew off their meeting and took to the airwaves to say quote, "It is not possible for us to swallow the message John Bolton gave." And the message that Mr. Bolton gave was that if the U.S. president is to follow through on his promise, then Turkey must agree not to attack the Kurds who have been the United States' principal allies in Syria. The problem being that Turkey does not exactly see the Kurdish forces there as allies. Osman Sert is a former adviser to the government of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. We reached Mr. Sert in Istanbul.

CO: Mr. Sert what message is President Erdogan sending by refusing to meet with John Bolton?

OSMAN SERT: It is so obvious you know Turkey's concerns are so open and frank that Mr.Erdogan is not telling for the first time the PYD or YPG is a terrorist organization for us -- he is repeating this for two years, and Mr. Bolton as if he is not knowing this -- he is trying to warn the Turkish president that Turkey should give some guarantees to protect PYD over that.

CO: Just to help people with this because you're mentioning organizations PYD and the YPG -- these are Kurdish groups that Turkey believes are terrorist groups or terrorist sponsored groups and that these are groups that Turkey does not want near its borders. But these are groups that have been helping the United States, these are allies of the United States in its campaign in Syria. Is that right?

OS: Yes you're right. But you know from the outset America was so hesitant to give this support to the other Syrian groups including Arabs you know mainly populated in Arab countries [inaudible] -- but other than the Syrian Kurds but especially the PKK affiliated PYD and YPG

CO: But these have been the allies of United States -- these are U.S. backed Kurdish fighters of the Syrian Democratic Forces. This is the group that the Americans have allied themselves with. So Turkey calls them terrorists, the United States calls them allies. I know it's complicated -- but isn't that exactly the crux of the matter here?

OS: Yes exactly you are right. But from the very outset Turkey was warning the American friends that look these are terrorist organizations, they are PKK affiliated organization, and it is true. And PKK is a terrorist organization -- not only for Turkey but also for the European countries and America as well. And then you shouldn't be cooperate with this groups. Rather if you wish, we are here and Turkey already proved its ability, its willingness, its capacity to fight with ISIS. In the Turkish controlled region in Syria there's no ISIS, no terrorist groups, no Iran, no regime, nor anyone. And that's why this was a mistake which was done at the outset by the Americans and that's why now the Americans are trying to undo this but it's a very complex issue for the Americans.

CO: Mr. Bolton is saying that he's demanding guarantees that Turkey would not attack those Kurdish forces we've just mentioned, they're allied with the United States, and they will not withdraw if they don't have those guarantees. And though it contradicts what Mr. Trump is saying, and we'll get to that in a moment. But that's essentially what Mr. Bolton is saying, that we're not leaving if you're not going to protect our allies. What position does that put Turkey in?

OS: Carol you just underlined it very clearly. There is you know a huge contradiction in American policies and American statements. That is the problem. It is not problem for Turkey but for everybody in the region. Mr. Trump is taking something. Mr. Bolton is saying something. Pentagon is speaking in a different language -- and that's why as the 50 years lasting ally of America in the region we should understand what really they want. Turkey didn't want the Americans -- just withdraw troops within a day, within a month - just what President Erdogan told to Mr. Trump that I will have an operation in the region against PKK affiliate YPG -- and then be careful about it that I will be doing this -- I want to coordinate it with you. And he said that okay I'm withdrawing all my forces from there and now they're trying to you know tidy their policies up. That is the problem.

CO: What would Turkey do if the United States did what Mr. Trump says it's going to do which is just to leave, what would Turkey do to those forces that we were talking about -- those allies of the United States, what would become of them? Would they be killed?

OS: In [inaudible] you can see what's happened over there. Turkey with the Syrian army as well have a fight with PKK affiliate YPG. And they withdraw from this region. They left region. But if they stay over there and then Turkish forces are entering to them and if they attack the Turkish forces, of course they will have repercussions from the Turkish army.

CO: Okay but when you say attack the forces -- if they stand their ground, what will Turkey do?

OS: Look these groups for maybe three decades are giving a fight with Turkey. They are killing civilians in Turkey. They are attacking Turkish towns. They are attacking Turkish military at the border -- at the Turkish-Syrian border as well. And terror organization -- Turkey will do whatever should be done for this.

CO: What does that mean? What would say 'we would do whatever it has to do' what does that mean?

OS: It is a fight. It's a fight. This is an operation -- it is a military operation and it's a fight. What do you expect Turkey against a group, which is a terrorist organization, to give some roses to them? You expect this?

CO: So Turkey will eliminate them?

OS: Of course Turkey is telling this -- it is not secrets okay? We are not trying to reveal a secret. Turkey is telling that you are a terrorist organization, you should leave my borders, you should leave this region, I don't want any you know terrorist organizations such as ISIS and PKK and YPG, and whatever should be done I will do it. It's not a secret and it's not something you know unknown we are discussing a lot.

CO: So Mr. Bolton is saying they're not going to leave if you're going to be killing their allies. So where does that put the United States at this point?

OS: Look the Americans -- this is a problem created by the Americans. America just prefered to choose a terrorist organization for Turkey as an ally in the region. And that's why the Americans should solve the problem.

CO: We haven't mentioned one other player in this region which is probably the biggest and most powerful and that's Russia. Where does Russia stand in all of this? Will they not back the Kurds? Will they not be allies of them? They are turning to them now aren't they? They're looking for support from Damascus and from Moscow, will they get that support?

OS: This organization, the PKK affiliated YPG, is being engaged with the regime as well -- in some towns they are just cooperating with the Assad regime. They don't have any problem with Assad -- YPG, okay? And for Russia, Turkey is in cooperation with Russia, in coordination with Russia, because it is the number one power right now controlling militarily the general landscape of Syria. Unfortunately at the outset Turkey tried to do its best to make in cooperation with the Americans but unfortunately it is a very long list of disappointments. But now Turkey is in close cooperation with Russia and probably President Erdogan will be going to Russia, to Moscow, sitting with Mr. Putin and will discussing about what's happening on the ground right now.

CO: Mr. Sert I appreciate your time. Thank you.

OS: My pleasure. Thank you very much.

CO: Goodnight.

JD: Osman Sert is the research director at the Ankara Institute, and a former adviser to the Erdogan government. We reached him in Istanbul.

[Music]

Avi "The Bikeman" Morrow obit

Guest: Bill Brownstein

JD: The secrets of "The Bikeman" can now be told -- albeit with deep sorrow. "The Bikeman" was the nickname given to an anonymous Montrealer who over the decades gave more than half a million dollars worth of bicycles and bicycle gear to children who otherwise would have gone without. And those donations were just the beginning of the mysterious benefactor's generosity. According to the obituary that Bill Brownstein wrote for the Montreal Gazette. The Bikeman died on Saturday at the age of 93. In life he never wanted recognition for his good works. But in his obituary, Mr. Brownstein was free to identify "The Bikeman" as the businessman and benefactor Avi Morrow. We reached Bill Brownstein in Montreal.

CO: Bill we're now able to use this man's name, Avi Morrow, or you're able to report who he is. Why was there so much secrecy about his identity?

BILL BROWNSTEIN: He just didn't want to be singled out for any kind of personal glory. He didn't think it was any big deal. This is somebody who is about as selfless a person as I've ever encountered. And believed that you pay things forward. He had done very well in business. He was on the brink of poverty as a child. He never had a bike as a kid. He had to finally beg his parents to buy him a second-hand used red Raleigh bike when he was very very young and he took great care of it. He used a toothpick to clean the spokes and everything else. And then when he was 60 years old he decided that, which was 33 years ago, he decided that he wanted to give back and he remembered how much bikes had meant to him so he worked out a deal with Sun Youth which is an organization in Montreal dealing with disadvantaged kids and had a program where he gave about a hundred bikes a year, plus helmets, plus locks, knowing how much it meant. But he just didn't think it was that big a deal. He thought it was something that one should do.

CO: But it was a big deal, wasn't it? For the kids got these bikes.

BB: Well certainly a big deal, yeah. It probably cost him over 600,000 dollars. He provided over 1700 bikes over the years. And that in itself was the tip of the iceberg. He did a lot of other things as well for Sun Youth. Whenever he heard about a family in distress or whose place had burned down or had been robbed or whatever, he was there to offer again anonymously financial assistance and goods and so forth. He just figured that that was what you do. Amazing in this day and age [chuckles] that there are people like that -- that there are.

CO: It's amazing -- well first of all that there are people who are generous but it's unusual to not want to get glory for that -- to not be recognized for your contribution. You interviewed him, you knew who he was, you knew his real identity...

BB: Yeah I knew who he was. I mean I had known him actually over the years. He was very much involved also with local artists in Montreal. He commission -- when they were out of work which was frequent, he would commission them to do various paintings. He had a building in Old Montreal and he had various artists do their points of view on that particular building. You know rather extraordinary guy but also a very well humored guy at the same time -- you know he wasn't self-righteous, he just you know had a good time doing this.

CO: He was not born into money -- as you say he was poor, how did he make his fortune?

BB: Well interestingly enough he started this company called Avmore which is across Canada and now -- they sell equipment for example the hand dryer, the electric hand dryer, he developed one himself which is now in use pretty much all over the country. And all sorts of different kinds of products for the industrial marketplace. So he did very well at that. And he pointed out he didn't need Rembrandts or anything as he said for his birthdays -- his idea of a birthday gift was giving back rather than receiving.

CO: And you say it was on his 60th birthday -- he wanted to celebrate his birthday in a different manner as you quote. And so he decided this is how he would do it. Did he tell you what inspired him? Because this is 33 years ago, what inspired him at that moment?

BB: He had a very spiritual quality to him. He would quote various philosophers and he said that basically to borrow from the teachings of my Maimonides as he put it, you give from the unknown to the unknown. And that's what he believed in. And he was very embarrassed about -- he would have been very embarrassed about going public with what he had done because he didn't think it was such a big deal.

CO: But he did, in your interview with him, he did think that this should inspire others -- he'd like to see this as something people do -- what did he tell you about that?

BB: And he said a lot of the people that he had helped out over the years either by giving bicycles or by giving aid to, as they got older they themselves would step in and pay it forward themselves and do acts of kindness and donate in this sort of thing. And it was working. If you speak to some of the people he had helped out, it changed their lives. So I mean there's something to it.

CO: What was he like? What kind of relationship did you have with him?

BB: Well very friendly. I mean he was an interesting character. He used to make horseradish for like Jewish holidays and pass it around to all of his friends or he'd buy those hallow breads for Sabbath dinners for his Jewish friends and he would give them out. He just liked sharing and giving. He was very -- you know he would constantly write if I had written a story or other people, he had known, write a story, you know writing to say how much he enjoyed something or giving us honey or horseradish along with that. They don't make people like that very often.

CO: What do you think he would make of you and I having this conversation about him?

BB: He'd be very embarrassed and he would say I'm glad I wasn't around for it -- because he wouldn't want people toasting his generosity on that kind of level. But you know his family was okay with it coming out after he passed away. And I mean if he wasn't going to give himself any credit while living, he sure deserves some credit now.

CO: And what about -- I mean this was a very personal gesture, wasn't it? On his part these several hundreds of bikes that he gave away. Who will pick up that up? Is that gone now that...

BB: No. His family has actually pledged to keep it going. He left, he has a wife and a daughter and a nephew who's running the business that he started seven years ago and they've pledged to keep the bike giveaway going. Of course it won't be anonymous any longer but still he started this thing. And plus they will also stay true to his dream of helping others in need.

CO: A lovely story and a lovely man. Thanks for telling us about Avi Morrow.

BB: My pleasure.

CO: Bye Bill.

BB: Bye bye.

JD: Bill Brownstein is a columnist with the Montreal Gazette. Avi Morrow's funeral was held yesterday in Montreal.

[Music]

Newfoundland seals

Guest: Brendan Fitzpatrick

JD: In recent weeks, small communities in northern Newfoundland have been inundated with surprise visitors: dozens of harp seals -- who have been turning up in odd places in large numbers and worrying the local townsfolk who are not allowed to move them. The seals have been stranded because of a buildup of ice blocking them from reaching open water. Brendan Fitzpatrick is a hunting guide and local resident who has photographed these seals in various locations. We reached him in Conch, Newfoundland.

CO: Brendan you're saying that we are seeing a lot of seals around so what are you talking about? What are the numbers of seals you're seeing in Roddickton?

BREDAN FITZPATRICK: Oh well in one area they are alone -- there was probably between 35 and 40. And there's other seals you know scattered around in different places that you can see from the highway. [Inaudible] that's got about 35 there. You know other places -- just along the shoreline really.

CO: Where are some of the more unusual places that have turned up?

BF: Well they've seen been on the road over there -- in the gas station one day. And in another area there in Croque, a small community, they found two last week and they were on a [inaudible] about three kilometres inland from the saltwater.

CO: And how many altogether have you seen?

BF: I've probably seen about 60-70 seals.

CO: And how are they doing? They're far from the water, are they getting anything to eat?

BF: That is a million dollar question. Today in the Brooks you know there is not much there, I don't think unless -- I don't count no trout coming out -- this time of the year is salmon but I guess just they are just there in brook just moving around.

CO: They're not freshwater animals, are they? So I guess because -- they can't get into the sea -- they can't get into the ocean.

BF: They can't get to the ocean -- there about five miles probably or more from the ocean.

CO: How did they get so inland?

BF: Oh every fall you know the seals they'll in those bays to feed -- they probably come in there chase the herring and when they get in there they stay. And next thing you know is the bays are froze over and they got no way out.

CO: How often have you seen this before?

BF: Well you see them often -- almost every year now, but they're usually not that close to the town -- usually way out in the bay like probably a mile or so you know.

CO: And have you seen such numbers in town before?

BF: No. I don't think -- I haven't seen them anyway.

CO: What do you think happened this year that so many of them got stranded so far inland?

BF: I think they came in and when it froze, that was it. Just couldn't get out.

CO: Did the oceans freeze earlier than usual this year?

BF: No. No. It was later actually. Probably the food -- you know might have been a bit of food they are keeping them there -- and I don't know if they're going to get out or what happens to them.

CO: They can't get under the ice or they can't get out from where they are because the ice is out too far?

BF: That's what people, some of the old fellows have been saying, you know like the ice is there and this froze over. And I don't think they'll go that far on the ice. You know not being able to come up for air. They're only last year harp so they're not a year old yet really.

CO: Is there any way to get out and break up a bit of the ice -- would anyone do that or is there...

BF: It's impossible to do that unless an ice breaker come in over there.

CO: And has anyone contacted the Department of Fisheries and Oceans?

BF: Well they are [inaudible] for people not to go near them.

CO: Well they're not dangerous.

BF: They can give you a bite.

CO: They can't move too quickly on land though.

BF: No they can't. But the thing with it is if you happen to come out of your house sometime in the nighttime you know probably there is one in your driveway -- they will make a bite at you.

CO: I know a lot of people in fishing communities don't particularly like the seals because well they eat the fish -- but it must be difficult to watch them -- these animals not getting them to eat and just being so stranded.

BF: Yeah I mean we're not the barbarians -- the Greenpeace [inaudible] -- you know everybody is worried about them. I'm wondering what's going to happen to them. I don't know -- in the next week or so I guess we'll see what happens.

CO: And what do you think will happen?

BF: They'll crawl. So they are crawling into the community and the next thing they'll crawl up in the woods and probably we will never see them again. Never know what happened to them. Probably crawl up in the woods and die.

CO: Is there anything that people can do or would do?

BF: I don't know what you can do really. You can't touch them because Department of Fisheries they'll probably charge -- they told you not to touch them. You don't know -- you take one and put it into your truck to bring it somewhere and the next thing Fishery shows up -- they probably charge you for harassment or something.

CO: Do you think people would mobilize and see if they can try and get them back into the water? Sometimes we do that with other animals. Do you think that could happen?

BF: I think they probably would you know just to get them out of it. I mean no one wants to see a bunch of animals there and they die [inaudible].

CO: So anybody talking about doing anything at this point?

BF: I think I've seen something on Facebook a little while ago -- I think that Roddickton was having a meeting -- they are having a meeting tomorrow night -- they are going to discuss it.

CO: Well Bredan we'll leave it there and we'll keep following what's going on and I appreciate speaking with you. Thanks.

BF: No problem.

CO: Bye.

JD: Brendan Fitzpatrick is a local hunting and fishing guide. We reached him in Conch, Newfoundland and Labrador.

[Music]

Leonard Cohen

SOUNDCLIP

LEONARD COHEN: Out of the thousands who are known or who want to be known as poets -- maybe one or two are genuine, and the rest are fakes -- hanging around the sacred precincts trying to look like the real thing. Needless to say, I am one of the fakes and this is my story.

JD: Leonard Cohen reading a poem called "Thousands" on PBS Newshour back in 2006. Proof that despite his gravelly voice and gravitas he did not always take himself seriously. William Logan also does not take Leonard Cohen seriously. And he doesn't think anyone else should. As he wrote recently for the New York Times quote "Cohen was never taken very seriously as a poet." And that is not the only one of Mr. Logan's grand and unattributed pronouncements. In his scathing review of a posthumous collection of drawings and writing called "The Flame," he writes that Mr. Cohen's audience quote "seemed more like a cult." And asserts that "many found him a bit too much, his heart-on-sleeve misery no more appealing than plunging your hands into boiling tar." Right. Speaking of a bit much, Mr. Logan's review is a hatchet job. But he does demonstrate a rapier wit or perhaps say fillet-knife wit, given his tendency to make nonsensical fish jokes. He writes that "lyrics without music look like dried lungfish in someone's den, mounted on varnished plaques." To which we can only say: citation needed. Even more confusing, he describes Mr. Cohen's voice as a quote "painful growl like a halibut with strep throat." Which kind of suggests that... a pleasant growl. Sounds like a halibut without strep throat. Hard to know since halibuts don't growl or have voices or throats really or make sounds. The thing is, Mr. Logan's actual criticism of the poetry is fair and scholarly. It's just that it only makes up about half the review. The rest consists of nauseated disdain for Leonard Cohen and his fans. Written in an authorial voice that is a painful whine. You know like: a haddock with a sinus infection.

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January 8, 2019 Episode Transcript

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