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The AIH Transcript for December 28, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

HELEN MANN: Hello, I’m Helen Mann. Sitting in for Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

JD: Tonight:

HM: Taking names. Hackers steal the personal data of nearly one thousand North Korean defectors. And our guest says it's the families left behind who now face detention or worse.

JD: Ill omens. Election day is suspended in parts of Congo because of what the electoral commission is calling an outbreak of Ebola. But the opposition leader tells us that the vote should go ahead.

HM: Duck and recover. A conservationist describes efforts to bring the world's rarest birds back from the brink of extinction — efforts that began in the bathtub in a hotel in Madagascar.

JD: One is too many. A physician at Ottawa's children's hospital treats three cases of a rare polio-like disease, but he says doctors still don't know what's causing it.

HM: Both rhymes AND reasons. The New York Times remembers the man they called their would-be poet in residence — the late engineer and author who responded to article after article with witty limericks.

JD: And...dreading some light on the situation. Despite fears of an alien invasion, New York police promise that the strange blue glow that lit up last night's sky was just an exploding electrical station.

JD: "As It Happens", the Friday edition, radio that keeps you plugged into all the big current events.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: North Korea defectors list, Polio-like illness World’s rarest bird

North Korea defectors list

Guest: Jack Kim

JD: Someone has leaked the personal information of nearly 1,000 North Korean defectors, after a major cyber-attack on a resettlement agency in South Korea. The centre is one of dozens run by the South Korean government. They're supposed help those who have fled North Korea with medical and legal issues and with finding work. The South Korean Ministry of Unification says that no other centres were hacked and they're not yet blaming and organization or nation. But the news is sure to unsettle North Korean defectors. Jack Kim is the co-founder of Han Voice, a Canadian-based non-profit working on North Korean human rights and refugee issues. We reached Mr. Kim in Toronto.

HM: Mr. Kim, when you first heard about this cyber-attack, what were your immediate thoughts?

JACK KIM: Very concerned. In this particular case, it is possible to track down who these people really are, what kind of family they may have in North Korea, and other things that would be very detrimental to a defector’s wellbeing in South Korea.

HM: What is known about how the hackers obtained the North Korean defectors private information?

JK: According to the Ministry of Unification, which is the government body that oversees this centre for North Korean defectors, it seems that someone emailed a malicious code to an employee of the Ministry of Unification and that's how the code got into the system.

HM: Are you somewhat surprised that there aren't better security measures in place given the crucial nature of the information?

JK: Well, the Ministry of Unification does say in fairness that information or computers that are linked with private information shouldn't be connected to the Internet. But seems that it was, and I'm not surprised that whoever is trying to get this information would be trying to do so. It's very valuable information. But I am surprised that the Korean government would not have more stringent measures applied to this.

HM: You indicated concerns that the information that has been obtained can reveal a lot about these folks who have defected. But what is the specifics? What are the kinds of things that they may have gotten from there?

JK: From what the Ministry of Unification tells us, things such as date of birth, real names, addresses, and it doesn't take much for a competent person to reverse engineer something from this — especially if you have the name and date of birth. And it does have grave consequences not only for the North Korean defectors but for anybody who is back in North Korea as well.

HM: Right, so as someone who regularly works with defectors through your non-profit, what do you think is going through the minds of these refugees who have been notified that their information has been leaked?

JK: I would think it would be panic. When North Korean defectors leave North Korea, they do so without the permission of their government, which they need. And their families back home generally declare these people missing or dead. And if they have been found to not only have turned up in South Korea, but these families have been found to have lied to the North Korean government, there could be severe repercussions. I mean these North Korean concentration camps they have are designed to put people in there for life. And that's something that I think every North Korean defector who's been affected by this — and not — is probably thinking about right now.

CO: And is there evidence that is what happens? That if a defector is located that their family is tracked down and faces this kind of punishment?

JK: There is. And to a certain degree there's also enormous pressure upon a North Korean defector to perhaps re-defect back to North Korea. The people in South Korea who've defected have no real choice but to go back home to protect their families.

HM: What about a risk to the defectors themselves? We hear these occasional stories about some pretty aggressive kidnapping operations.

JK: Well, it's not only kidnapping. There have been sporadic times when the North Korean regime has tried to assassinate North Korean defectors — especially those who have been more outspoken. And it's not outside the realm of possibility. I mean Kim Jong-un killed his half-brother at Kuala Lumpur Airport in broad daylight with chemical weapons. So trying to get rid of a North Korean defector is not that fantastic.

HM: Now, the South Korean government has not at this point explicitly blamed North Korea for the cyber-attack. Who else do you think could possibly be behind this?

JK: You know it could be a 400 pound man in his basement, as the president of the United States might say. But I mean the most likely culprits are probably either North Koreans or people linked with the North Koreans. There's not much value that someone else would have with this information. So they're strong suspects. The South Korean government at this point in time has strong incentive not to point fingers. They're trying to make good with the North Korean regime right now and trying to build train tracks and things like that. So having the North Koreans blame for something like this probably would put a little bit of ink on that.

HM: Beyond the blame though, if indeed North Korea is responsible, how much does this risk damaging these sort of early stages of this effort to establish a better relationship?

JK: Well, I mean and anything could really derail these talks that are happening. Unfortunately, every time this happens, North Korean defectors — the refugees — are the first to be sacrificed. It's already happening now where some North Korean defectors accuse the South Korean government of muzzling their speech, of coercing them not to protest, and then things like that as well. So will it really damage things? Probably not, but I think this government probably doesn't want to take any chances.

HM: Do you think you might know anyone who has had their information taken given the work that you do?

JK: It's possible. I mean we're talking about almost a thousand people out of a population of about 32,000-33,000 people in South Korea. If he did, I for one wouldn't tell the world that this happened. I'd probably want to keep this on the down low.

HM: What more do you think could be done to protect North Korean defectors from information hacks like this?

JK: Well, I think having all their names in one repository is not a really great idea. It's basically begging to be hacked. So if more countries were willing to take North Koreans, including our own, you could have a dispersal of this population and make it harder for folks to try to do this to North Korean defectors. I mean these people have escaped a country that is a prison camp in itself. And there are many people who don't want to go to South Korea for these very reasons. So we should be able to open our doors to North Korean refugees, which are at this point of time our government has not done so.

HM: Why is that? Why do you think countries like Canada aren't taking more of them?

JK: Well, there's something called a durable solution doctrine that points to the fact that if a country like South Korea is able to take North Korean refugees, then other countries don't need to butt in.

HM: All right. Jack Kim, I really appreciate you talking with us about this. Thank you very much.

JK: No problem. Thanks for having me.

HM: All right. Bye-bye.

JD: Jack Kim is the co-founder of Han Voice, a Canadian non-profit working to resolve North Korean human rights and refugee issues. We reached Mr. Kim in Toronto.

[Music: Ambient]

Polio-like illness

Guest: Erick Sell

JD: Today, a hospital in Ottawa confirmed that another child has been diagnosed with a rare "polio-like illness". Doctors still aren't sure what causes it. But they do know that it affects children almost exclusively. And they know that it causes paralysis. This latest diagnoses of acute flaccid myelitis, or AFM, is the third at the hospital since summer. Dr. Erick Sell is a paediatric neurologist at CHEO, the paediatric health and research centre in Ottawa where the three cases are being treated. That is where we reached Dr. Sell at the centre.

HM: Dr. Sell, you have got another young patient with these polio-like symptoms. First of all, how is he doing?

ERIC SELL: Well, this young toddler is fortunately back home. He was admitted in the middle of December for a handful of days mainly to complete investigations, but recovered quite well and has been discharged since.

HM: What kind of symptoms did this child present with you?

ES: It was a very dramatic change in the movements of one of his arms that could not really be explained by any other event. So that brought them to the emergency department.

HM: Now, it's being called a polio-like illness. But what else can you tell us about AFM?

ES: Yeah, so it’s very rare. This is not something that we see as many other illnesses or other causes of acute paralysis. We tend to tell parents not to be overly concerned. Not only because it's rare, but they'll know when to come to the hospital as the changes are very quick and dramatic. The polio-like comes from back in the days when acute flaccid paralysis was the most common presentation of symptomatic neurological polio syndrome. So the great majority of individuals who had polio would not even realize they had the polio infection, but a minority of them would present with ascending paralysis often involving the legs but sometimes with different patterns, and eventually was shown to be related to polio virus. At present time, these patients that have presented shares some of those features where we suspect there was a viral illness preceding or close to the time of the symptom onset. And the findings that are done with imaging of the spinal cord or neuro-physiological testing of the extremities affected are in keeping with an infection of the anterior portion of the spinal cord — similar to what happened in polio.

HM: You said that it looks as if these patients tend to have had some kind of virus. Is there a commonality in that virus? Do you think it's one particular strain of something that's causing this?

ES: It’s not known from information we have from the Center of Disease Control. They are trying to answer that question. In these very rare circumstances where from those type of symptoms it has progressed into weakness in legs or arms, there has been no — to the best of our knowledge — a specific a virus that is responsible for those more severe cases.

HM: Among those severe cases — or more severe cases — is the case of a four-year-old from Rockland, Ontario who had AFM. He's got a right arm that's paralyzed. And our colleagues at “White Coat, Black Art” spoke with his mother about him and his condition. I'm just wondering why some children seem to be hit so much more severely than others?

ES: I think that's a question that many of us have. It kind of eludes to the same question when a viral illness affects a family in a regular household, often one member will have a little bit of a sore throat and another member may end in the hospital with chest pain and difficulty breathing, and there might be another member that will not get any symptom at all and will be able to go the next day to work or to school. It seems to mirror what we all experience with different infections that there's a varying degree of severity.

HM: You mentioned the number of cases in this country. You've had these three patients. Health Canada is saying there's been 70 confirmed cases in this country. That's an increase from an average of 25 to 51. Why do you think that increase is happening? What are some of the theories that are going around out there?

ES: I myself don't know. I think there are always theories that have to do with elements in the environment. So there are cycles or times where different strains of viruses may become more prevalent.

HM: You have said that you're telling parents not to panic because they'll recognize symptoms if they become extreme pretty quickly. How do you ensure that you know overall people don't start changing their behaviours and worrying that this is going to affect their children because of exposure to say other kids who might have it?

ES: Yeah, so apart from knowing that it is a rare condition, there is, unfortunately, no way to predict who is at risk or who will ultimately suffer this type of illness. I would rather try to encourage them to be more diligent with wearing helmets, with having good parental surveillance around water around swimming pools. Because, unfortunately, that is a more common rather than these rare conditions that that cannot be prevented and are so random in their appearance.

HM: Well, Dr. Sell, I appreciate you telling us about the particular case, and about the illness overall. Thank you very much.

ES: Thank you. A real pleasure.

JD: Dr. Eric Sell is a pediatric neurologist at CHEO. We reached him in Ottawa. For more on this story, go to: www.cbc.ca/whitecoat for coverage from our friends over at “White Coat, Black Art”.

[Music: Horns]

Larry Eisenberg obit

JD: The obituary published Wednesday in the New York Times had a bit of an unusual start. Quote, "Larry Eisenberg, whom we well know, Has died (and his age is below). He opined on the news. With limericks whose delightfulness levens our woe." Unquote. So to fill in a few of the blanks, Larry Eisenberg was a celebrated science fiction author and an accomplished biomedical electrical engineer. He died on Tuesday, at the age of 99. The reason the Times writers knew Mr. Eisenberg at all was that he had combined his passion for limericks with his habit of letting the Times know what he thought about what they found fit to print. Mr. Eisenberg's rhyming rebuttals came so fast and so furious that The Time's top editorial writer once called him, quote, "the closest thing this paper has to a poet-in-residence." Unquote. Here's an example from shortly after Donald Trump took office, "A mauler, a grabber, abuser, A do whatever you chooser Non-thinker, non-reader A spoiled-children breeder An every trick-in-the-book user." Unquote. The news of Mr Eisenberg's death has inspired an overwhelming response from friends and from fans, and much of what they're writing about his him is in rhyme. Here's one from William Shunn who wrote, quote, "With a wry little wave and a chortle, Dr. Eisenberg slipped through the portal. He had nothing to fear As he passed from this sphere. His limericks had made him immortal." Unquote. A fitting tribute to Larry Eisenberg — sci fi writer and prolific limerick writer. He was 99 years old.

[Music: Ambient]

World’s rarest bird

Guest: Peter Cranswick

JD: It's been called the world's rarest bird. And now, the Madagascar pochard has a new home. Twenty-one of the birds have been released at a lake in the north of Madagascar, at an effort to bring the species back from the brink. Peter Cranswick works with the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust, one of the groups involved in the project. We reached him in Gloucester, England.

HM: Mr. Cranswick, what makes this bird, the Madagascar pochard, the world's rarest bird?

PETER CRANSWICK: Well, there are probably only about 25 in the wild. It was thought extinct, but then 2006, by chance, somebody found 25 on one lake. So it was rediscovered back from the brink. And we hastily went out and did a survey elsewhere, had a look around on all the other lakes, we couldn't find any. So we're confident that, unfortunately, that's the entire world population.

HM: What is it that drove this birds so close to extinction?

PC: It's really the general loss of wetlands in Madagascar. So lots of reasons, but perhaps two key ones are the deforestation means all the soil washes into the waters. And then also people have introduced fish. So fish are a real staple source of protein. And the introduced fish also mess up the ecology of the lake. And this is a diving duck. The pochard dives beneath the surface to get insects and plants. And because the ecology of the lakes has gone down the pan then these birds have literally had nowhere where they can survive.

HM: What does the Madagascar pochard look like?

PC: There are a bunch of species of pochard’s around the world, but this one is a chocolaty-brown colour all over. And then the males have a bit of a glossy-purplish colour, shining bright white eyes, and then white under the tail.

HM: Now, I'm interested in what happened after the discovery of this group of 25 birds — this flock. What did you do?

PC: Well, we went, and we were told well ideally will probably take some into captivity and then create a captive population with this long-term view to put them back into the wild. Although we had no idea at that point how we would do it or even what the challenges were. So we realized that although they were having ducklings, all the ducklings were starving when they got to about a month to six-weeks-old. So we literally took three clutches, 24 eggs, from the wild, hatched them by the side of the lake, and then drove them to the nearest town that had electricity and water and reared them in a hotel bathroom. It took us two years then to create a little breeding centre. And over the years, we've managed to breed them successfully. So we have about 100 in captivity always with this idea that we need to put them back into the wild and find a good long-term home for them.

HM: Now that you have these 21 birds in a new home, what kind of concerns do you have? How risky is this move?

PC: Well, there's a huge amount of challenges. The lake we found where we put them is you can only drive the last 50 miles three months of the year. It's just a mud track. And when the rains come, nothing can get down that road. So we've had concerns from literally can we drive them on this 12-14 hour journey and not damage them? Because it's far from smooth, and you can get stuck for hours at a time, so that even when we get the birds to the lake, will they be in any fit state to be released? And then the real challenge for us has been that when you release an animal into the wild, you want it to stay at the site you've chosen. If it flies off elsewhere and if this duck goes to any other lake, almost certainly it's going to die. So to make sure it stays there or give it the best fighting chance, you put it in an aviary, and it gets to see its new site for a week or so before you let it out. But because this is a diving duck, we need to put it on the water. So this is we have made the world's first floating aviary with a net on the top and a net under the bottom so they can really experience the lake before we let it out into the wild.

HM: How did you construct these aviaries?

PC: So the commercial fish farms at sea build these great big imagine it’s like circles of plastic with a net on the top and then a big net underneath. And we went to the manufacturers of these and pleaded to make a duck-sized version of one of these. And then it's come kit form, and we've had to export it and get it through customs, and then get it on the back of a tractor and get it up to this lake that is literally at the back end of beyond. There's no water, there's no electricity, there's no resources there. So it's been a challenge.

HM: What will you be doing to monitor their progress?

PC: Exactly. We've got a team. We've trained up Malagasy staff, and they will monitor it. We've made some floating islands that the birds will stand on. We've made floating feeding stations. And our scientists — our team — will stay there over the months, through the rainy season — you can't even get to the site other than walking 40 kilometres — but they will stay and monitor the birds, their ecology, their distribution, their behaviour, and fingers crossed that all of surviving or a large number of them survive. We'll learn from that, and then probably for the next five years at least we'll be releasing birds and modifying and adapting our technique. And helping inform what we need to do to this late to make a healthy place for the ducks.

HM: What about the local people? How have they responded to this effort to bring the ducks back?

PC: They're key, but the big challenge of conservation is you go in and you say oh, please can you look after the duck and we walk away. Well, when the rains fail or the crops fail in a very poor part of Madagascar, then looking after your family is clearly going to win hands down over please, can you do something a bit different for the duck? So for five years, we've been working with the 12,000 people who live around the lake to improve their livelihoods, to make the way they farm, and use the site, and how they fish there sympathetic to the lake. And it works because a healthy Lake is better for them. We've managed to galvanize the government or the officials into doing this because we are saving world’s rarest bird. That's a hell of a story — a hell of a hook — to galvanize and motivate people around.

HM: Might these birds in time lose their title as the world's rarest?

PC: That is the plan. We want more birds there. And perhaps in five years or so, we've got 50 or more birds, and they're breeding. The next challenge will be a new lake so that they can spread out. It's climbing a mountain. You think you’re getting to the top, and it just goes on and on. But that is the challenge. And if we can get this bird to be a success story, that's going to be a real incentive for everybody else to get behind it and carry on this work across Madagascar.

HM: Well, Peter Cranswick, congratulations on the work so far, and I wish you, the team, and the ducks the best of luck.

PC: Thank you very much.

HM: Peter Cranswick works with the Wild Fowl and Wetlands Trust in Gloucester, England. That is where we reached him. And if you'd like to see some photographs of the Madagascar potchard, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

NYC transformer explosion

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: What is that? That looks gnarly?

SPEAKER TWO: Look at the sky!

SPEAKER THREE: Wow! What is that? SPEAKER FOUR: Don’t go closer! Seriously, call 911. Just ask what it is?

SPEAKER FIVE: It’s aliens!

JD: It wasn't an alien invasion. But last night, an eerie humming noise filled New York City streets and the sky was flooded with a supernatural blue light. New Yorkers posted videos of the light show to social media — fearing everything from an asteroid strike to the arrival of our extraterrestrial overlords. And then, finally, the New York Police Department offered the somewhat more benign explanation on Twitter: a transformer had exploded at a power station causing an electric blue arc of light. The NYPD added, quote, "No injuries, no fire, no evidence of extraterrestrial activity." Unquote. Today, the New York Times followed up, confirming, quote, "The Men in Black and the Ghostbusters did not respond to requests for comment."

[Music hip-hop]

Part two: Congo protests, Encore: homeless reunion

Congo protests

Guest: Martin Fayulu

JD: On Sunday, people in the Democratic Republic Congo will decide if they want a big change — or more of the same. But even the spectre of that vote has already ignited passions. Police have clashed with opposition protesters who are protesting the suspension of voting in 3 areas of Congo. The country's electoral commissions says it's because of the ongoing Ebola outbreak. But the opposition suspects an attempt at voter suppression, and an attempt to influence the election's outcome. Outgoing President Joseph Kabila is not running. But he is hoping to hand the reins to a party loyalist. Despite the unrest, opposition leader Martin Fayulu is currently leading in the polls. We reached Mr. Fayulu in Kinshasa.

HM: Mr. Fayulu, at this point, do you feel confident that Sunday's elections will go ahead in a free and fair manner?

MARTIN FAYULU: I just came out from a meeting with the electoral commission. We have agreed to have the election this Sunday. But now the question is those election will be credible? I doubt it because CENI is not really ready to give us a fair and credible election according to what we are seeing here. Some areas of the country they have suspended the election.

HM: Let's just clarify so people understand what CENI is.

MF: CENI is the National Electoral Commission.

HM: Now, the government says that the postponement of the vote in the areas you mentioned is because of an outbreak of Ebola. They say it wouldn't be safe to allow the people in that region to go to the polls. What do you say to that?

MF: Yeah, but this is not true. It's a false argument because we went there. I was there myself. We campaigned. They let people campaigning. Everybody was there. And currently, we have markets going on in those places, people go to church, and the situation is there. The real reason is because they have seen that their candidate is not welcomed to those areas.

HM: Right, so this is an area where you have increased your own popularity?

MF: That's right.

HM: We are also hearing that just two days before the vote, only 60 per cent of the election materials — particularly the tally sheets — have been delivered to polling stations. How is it that this election can go ahead as planned on Sunday if it doesn't have those materials?

MF: Is that the same question we asked CENI. But CENI pretended that have delivered the all electoral material in the all polling station. But we have evidence, and we give those evidence to CENI that in some areas, they still don't have the electoral material.

HM: If those materials aren't delivered what effect does it have? I mean how much does it put the election at risk in terms of its fairness and transparency?

MF: Yeah, it will be a problem because people are waiting to vote. And we will have maybe half of the population or even 30 per cent and then it will be difficult to see because they will choose those areas where they are very weak not to send the electoral materials.

HM: the allegation out there from your supporters is that the outgoing President Kabila is doing all of this through the electoral commission to support his preferred candidate. And that you know this will be to his benefit. Are you willing to go so far as to say that this is rigged — this vote?

MF: No, we will go to the vote. We’ll not boycott the vote. But what you said is that is right. Kabila is trying to favour his candidate because that candidate is very weak. It will be himself in power. The campaign has demonstrated that his candidate is so weak that by all means he cannot win at all. He cannot win. He will not come even second. That candidate is people of Congo they are saying that every single thing they can do Mr. Ramazani will lose the election. That's why they say let's go to the election to show Mr. Kabila that we want to get rid of him because we are fed up with his politics. He has put Congo in the bad shape and we want change.

HM: In 2006 and 2011, the elections in your country saw violence on the streets. If people are unhappy with the outcome, if they are questioning whether it was a fair vote, do you have concerns that we will see people on the streets and the potential for more violence?

MF: Yes, we have a real concern because if they just proclaim the result which doesn't tally with what other people have done, I think that a lot at risk to have people not so agree with the results. That's why we continue to insist CENI they have to be careful, and to try their best to give the correct results.

HM: If you lose, will you accept the results?

MF: No, no. It’s not the matter of accepting or not accepting. I will accept the result which is you know in accordance with what the people have done.

HM: Mr. Fayulu, I know this is a very busy time for you. We appreciate you speaking with us.

MF: Thank you very much. Thank you.

HM: Thank you. Bye-bye.

JD: Martin Fayulu is the opposition candidate for president of the Democratic Republic of Congo, where elections will be held this Sunday. We reached him in the capital of Kinshasa. You can read more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Sombre]

FOA: Amos Oz obit

JD: "Our greatest writer," and "a giant of the spirit." That's how Israel's President described Amos Oz today. The novelist, essayist and political activist died this morning at the age of 79, following what his daughter described as a rapid deterioration from cancer. Mr. Oz was the author of 19 novels, including 'A Tale of Love and Darkness' and 'Black Box' — which put him in perennial consideration for a Nobel prize in literature. His non-fiction output was even more prolific. But many, both in and outside Israel, know Amos Oz best for his work as the founder of the group 'Peace Now' and for his tireless efforts to find a peaceful end to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. That's what prompted Mr. Oz to take a call from “As It Happens” in 2003. He'd just taken part in a secret exercise that drew together two groups of civilians. One was Israeli, the other Palestinian. Together they'd negotiated what they hoped could be a starting point for negotiations for peace. “As It Happens” Host Mary Lou Finlay asked Mr. Oz why he believed that such a thing could work.

SOUNDCLIP

AMOS OZ: This is not the question of belief. This is a question of hard work. I think both parties are committed to work hard on their respective public opinions in order to create a political momentum. And what's even more important an emotional momentum toward a compromise. Now, if the final peace compromise would not be exactly according to this draft resolution I would be the last person to complain. If Mr. Sharon wants to use this document, if Mr. Arafat wants to use this document, we will certainly not sue them for plagiarism. But if they want to make a different kind of agreed upon peace, bless them both.

MARY LOU FINLAY: What do you think might be the hardest thing to sell in this accord?

AO: The hardest thing to sell is trust. The hardest thing to sell is trust itself. Not any particular point. Of course, it will be extremely painful, unfortunately, for Israeli people to renounce sovereignty over the temple. It is immensely difficult for Palestinians to publicly and efficiently to renounce the claim that Palestinians may return into Israel proper. This is going to be very painful for both — equally painful perhaps. But perhaps precisely because it is equally painful it may work.

MLF: And is there any chance at all that either Prime Minister Sharon or Mr. Chairman Arafat would want to push this idea forward?

AO: Now you're expecting me to be a prophet. And you know in the land of prophets, there is a lot of competition in this business. I don't know if it will be Mr. Sharon or Mr. Arafat or their successors? It’s not for me to tell. It doesn't matter. I can tell you that finally one day there will be a two-state solution. How long it will take, how soon it will happen, I don’t know? On this I don't get up in the morning and ask myself how soon did I get up. In the morning, I ask myself what can I do today.

MLF: What are you going to do tomorrow with this?

AO: Change some minds, talk to my neighbours, write a newspaper article, speak on the radio, talk on the phone with some people. I mean all i can do is just pour a teaspoon of water on the huge flames. But if everyone pours his or her teaspoon of water on the flames, maybe we should finally overcome the conflagration.

JD: From our archives, that was Amos Oz, in conversation with “As It Happens” host Mary Lou Finley in 2003. The Israeli writer and activist died this morning. He was 79 years old.

[Music: Ambient]

Encore: Homeless reunion

JD: Mary MacKillop went a year without hearing from her son, Danny. She went eight years without holding him. Danny was homeless, a drug user, and living on the streets of Toronto. Mary was home, far away, in Reserve Mines, Cape Breton. Earlier this year, however, we heard about how the pair were reunited, thanks to a special constable with Toronto Community Housing. That interview, from February, with Special Constable Jason Kirkwood and Ms. MacKillop, is one of our most memorable interviews of the past year. Here is an encore of that interview.

[sc]

CO: Jason and Mary, hello to you both.

JASON KIRKWOOD: Hi, Carol. How are you?

MARY MACKILLOP: Hi.

CO: And can you hear each other?

JK: Yes.

MM: I can hear him; I can hear you.

CO: Jason, I want to start with you because the whole story begins with you. Late last year, in Toronto, when you were taking money out of an ATM machine, what happened?

JK: Yeah, I was at the ATM machine at Kim’s Convenience in the Moss Park area of Toronto. And took my money out, and hastily put it in my pocket, and went on my way, and started hearing my name being yelled out. I hear Jay, Jay, and they turn around, and I see it's Danny. So I stop, and he asked me how much money did you just take out? And I'm a little guarded because I know I'm from the community, he’s a substance user and homeless. And I end up telling him; I say I took out $160. And he goes well, count it. Again, I'm guarded, but I take it out of my pocket, I count it, and there's a $120. He's like you left this behind, and he holds up his two hands and in each hand is $20. And I'm like wow, Danny! Thank you very much.

CO: He found it in the machine?

JK: Yeah, I left it back in the machine. So yeah, I give him some money, and I go on my way. And I think about it that night; I'm like wow that was pretty solid! Like a really good heart and a good thing to do. So I write about it on Facebook. And a couple of days go by, and I see Danny, and I tell him I'm like oh, I wrote the story about you giving me my money back on Facebook. And he says to me oh, can you tag me in the story? I want my mom to know I'm not such a bad guy.

CO: Mary, you’re there, and so hi to you again.

MM: Hi.

CO: Hi Mary. And now you read this Facebook post, what did you think when you saw it?

MM: Well, I didn't quite read it right away. Right now, I'm big on Facebook; I'm not usually. And someone phoned me and said Mary, you need to go look at the computer there's a story I came across in my news feed — so I did, I went, and that's the story. And so, first of all, I was like dazed thinking oh my God, I know where he's at. And the reason why Jason did get so many when he posted that because periodically, every month, I would put in that message on Facebook: Danny, call home. Danny, call Mom. So everybody around knew in my community that my boy was missing. So everybody was concerned about him. So when I saw Jason's post after that, that's when I just contacted him like I got to go, and he helped me. He told me what area to look — Queen and Sherborne.

CO: Jason, why did you think that was possibly the area where Mary might find her son?

JK: Well, I've known Danny for a number of years. And that would be the area like where a lot of the users hang out. And Danny would be one of them who hung out in that area.

CO: It’s a pretty rough part of town.

JK: Yes.

CO: Mary, what was it like to be in those streets looking for him?

MM: Well, my sister and I went into Toronto early that morning with a picture. And we walked those streets and up and down Queen to Sherborne, and no luck. We asked different people. We just walked and walked and walked. And finally it's getting dark, and I said I can't do this anymore. I'm nervous in the dark; we're going to have to come back tomorrow. So I'm walking on Queen and Yonge, and someone passed me, and then I heard the person speak. And they said hey, I know you know; you’re my mother. And when I turned around because he had passed me — I didn't see him. It took me seconds, but then I knew it was him. And so it was just very, very emotional from then on, like hugging and kissing and just unbelievable. My sisters, we were all crying.

CO: How did he look when you saw him?

MM: Very, very thin — very gaunt face. He’s very thin that's all I can say. He looked very unkempt.

CO: Now you have him; he's with you. And what did you talk about? Because you don't want him to go back street, did you make a plan?

MM: Well, that was thing: I didn't have a plan. I had no plan. I just knew I had to get him. And a very good friend of Danny's sent me a message saying I can help. So that's what I told him: your friend Wayne is giving you an opportunity to go to rehab. And it's in Vancouver; you either take that, or you go back to the street. So in the end, he said yes, he was ready for rehab. So we went, and he's doing excellent. And he calls me every night. And it's so nice to hear those words: I love, Mom; because I hadn't heard them in almost two years.

CO: Is he drug free?

MM: Yes, he is; he's 11 days drug free.

CO: How does it feel to have your son back in your life with you?

MM: Amazing. It's like I don't know I'm always happy, I can't wait for his phone calls every night. I was a very, very sad person, especially during the latter part of last year. It was really starting to bother me. I thought he was dead. I really thought he was dead. And I was calling all the police departments like East Division, West Division, calling hospitals in Ontario, but all I was worried about is do you have a John Doe? If you have a John Doe, could it be my son? So I was convinced he's dead.

CO: And now, he's back in your life.

MM: Now he's back in my life, yes.

CO: Jason, you're a Special Constable, you deal with people on the street, with homelessness, with drug addicts. Is this a story you rarely get to see— this moment like this?

JK: Oh yeah, this was incredible. I've been with Toronto Community Housing in the area for almost 20 years, and I’m very happy to have been a part of the story, but a very small part of it. And I'm a little choked up; like I have Mary told the story this way. And I speak to her on Facebook almost every day now. We've become friends, as I have with so many of her other friends in Cape Breton.

MM: You're an honorary Cape Bretoner now, Jason.

JK: Yeah, yeah, I’m going to have enough to make my way down there sometime.

MM: For sure.

CO: And Mary, any message for Jason> Anything you want to say to him?

MM: I love Jason to death. Because of him, I got my life back. I got my boy, and it was all because of Jason. Had he not posted that story, we'd all still be wondering where is Danny MacKillop?

CO: Jason and Mary, it is such a pleasure and such an honour to speak with you both. I'm glad this worked out for you, Mary, and your son.

MM: Thank you Carol.

CO: Thank you, guys. Bye.

MM: Bye Bye, Jason.

JK: Bye Mary, take care.

MM: Bye bye.

[/sc]

JD: From February 2018, that was Mary MacKillop and Special Constable Jason Kirkwood — one of our most memorable interviews of the year.

[Music: Ambient]

Angelina Jolie BBC

JD: Jolie 2020? Today, Hollywood star and UN Special Envoy for Refugees Angelina Jolie sat in as guest editor for the "Today Program" on BBC Radio 4. The breakfast news program brings in a series of guest editors this time of year. Presenter Justin Webb asked Ms. Jolie about her transition from movie star to humanitarian advocate. And then he wondered what else she might like to do.

SOUNDCLIP

ANGELINA JOLIE: I was a bit of a young punk, and I loved the idea of fighting for something you believe in however hard, being brave in your life and your choices, and doing something your own way. And I don't feel I've changed much at all. You know it's funny children can do two things. They can make you grow up and you do. And they also add a sense of wild themselves. And they all have a good rebellious streak. That is wonderful and curious. And I don't want them to be perfectly behaved little people that just say what's absolutely appropriate because I say so or because they think that they have to find themselves. And you know maybe today there's a lot of focus on people focusing on their selves, their needs, their opinions, their sculpted news, maybe the new rebellion is to hold to your values and to understand policies and politics and fight for your fellow man. Maybe that actually is the rebellion.

JUSTIN WEBB: I've got to ask you this. I talked years ago on the program to Donald Trump, when he was a businessman. And I asked him if he's going to stand for president. And he said yes, I am. And nobody took it very seriously. Now come on. I'm not necessarily getting you to run for president on the program, but are you moving in a direction of politics? Is that where you naturally go, do you think?

AJ: You know, honestly, if you asked me 20 years ago, I would have laughed. I always say I'll go where I'm needed. I don't know if I'm fit for politics. But then I've also joked that I don't know if I have a skeleton left in my closet. So I'm pretty open and out there. And I can take a lot on the chin. So I honestly will do whatever I think can really make change. And right now, I am able to work with a U.N. agency that is the most in the field of all the U.N. agencies to do a lot of work directly with the people in need. I'm also able to work with governments. And I'm also able to work with militaries. And so I sit in a very interesting place of being able to get a lot done without a title and without it being about myself or my policies.

JD: That was Angelina Jolie, speaking to BBC presenter Justin Webb earlier this morning. The Hollywood star and U.S. special envoy for refugees was today's guest editor for BBC Radio 4's “Today” program.

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December 28, 2018 episode transcript

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