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The AIH Transcript for December 27, 2018

Hosts: Helen Mann and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello I'm Helen Mann, sitting in for Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight...

HM: Without warning. Indonesians are told to prepare for the possibility of another tsunami near the Anak Krakatau volcano -- and we hear from a scientist who says the next one could be as hard to predict as the first.

JD: Not what the doctor ordered. The deaths of two children in just a month has a top pediatrician calling on U.S. border officials to get more specialized medical supervision for its young detainees.

HM: Good offices. Indigenous educator and self-government advocate Leroy Little Bear says he's still digesting the call from the Governor General's office naming him as an Officer of the Order of Canada.

JD: Habit forming. We remember Sister Wendy Beckett, the Carmelite nun whose passionate commentaries about the power of art became staple viewing for people around the world.

HM: Ain't nothin' but a round dog. As we look back at some of our most memorable interviews from 2018 -- we'd like to reintroduce Trevor the wiener dog, who suddenly ballooned to twice his size.

JD: And doing one another's bidding. He had the perfect gift for her and she for him. The only problem was that the nearly-weds were both competing for a single rare present on an online auction site. As It Happens. The Thursday Edition. Radio that always gives as good as it gets.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Why the deadly tsunami in Indonesia took everyone by surprise

Indonesia: volcanologist

Guest: Janine Krippner

JD: Indonesia is on high alert. Days after an underwater volcano triggered a tsunami which killed hundreds -- there are warnings of even more volcanic activity. In areas near the Anak Krakatau volcano, residents are being told to stay away from the coast in case a collapse triggers another giant wave. Janine Krippner is a volcanologist at Concord University who has been monitoring the data coming from the volcano. We reached Ms. Krippner in Athens, West Virginia.

HM: Janine Krippner, Indonesian officials have today raised the alert level for this volcano -- what is it that they're most worried is about to happen?

JANINE KRIPPNER: They're concerned about the eruption itself as well as any potential further tsunamis from the material -- that's remaining on the volcano collapsing.

HM: How is that this all being measured -- I mean how do the researchers know about the collapse of that wall and how are they monitoring things?

JK: Krakatau is monitored probably seismographs at the moment -- we are seeing a lot of information coming from satellite data and that's telling us how much of the volcano has actually collapsed. We can see that a big portion of the volcano is missing.

HM: Is that unusual that that would happen?

JK: It's relatively rare -- through geologic time so much longer than human time span -- it definitely does happen at volcanoes but a lot of the time it happens on land, so when it happens on land obviously we don't have the impact of the ocean so we don't normally have tsunamis so this is a relatively rare event.

HM: What went through your mind when you heard about this and when you saw some of the data?

JK: Honestly my gut sunk thinking about all those people who have been impacted. It's an absolutely horrific horrific event. And this is a tsunami -- it's not like the normal kind of tsunamis -- this particular kind generated a lot closer to the coast so people just had no warning.

HM: So now this increased alert has us wondering you know if this is already a rare event having a volcano cause tsunami, how is it that another one might potentially happen so soon after the first?

JK: The problem is that we can't tell how stable or unstable the volcano is after this event. So we have the volcano that we can see above the ocean floor but it also goes much further down below. So the risk of collapse is already known because of the steep slopes of the volcano especially under the water so now part of that has collapsed but we cannot tell how much more of the volcano is potentially unstable at this point.

HM: How long has Krakatau been behaving in this way?

JK: The collapse is not usual but the eruption style of the last few months is very normal for Krakatau. In fact it's been erupting above the surface on and off since around 1929 -- before that it was below the surface of the ocean.

HM: So should officials have been on higher alert that a collapse or some other potential event was possibly pending?

JK: I don't know that there was any way that they could have seen this coming. With the high level activity being normal at this volcano -- this collapse has not happened previously so why it happened on this particular day there's just no knowing at this point. The volcanos are essentially piles of rock and lava -- they are inherently unstable systems but as we see with the hundreds of thousands of volcanoes around the world that aren't collapsing every day this is a rare event.

HM: So can you take us through the sequence of events and what would have actually transpired under the ocean?

JK: Whatever triggered the collapse whether it was just the volcano being worn down by eruptions through time, working on pre-existing instability on the [inaudible] but for some reason a lot of the large amount of the volcanic edifice collapsed into the ocean. So what happens then is place displacing a large amount of water. So if you think of throwing a pebble into a pond you get a series of waves that propagate outwards from that pebble because of the water being displaced by the pebble. So that series of waves being traveled at very high speeds towards land -- from what I've heard especially in one location they were not the usual signs of a tsunami like the water receding -- the first wave of that sequence was the warning and it's not enough, if people don't see that wave they have absolutely no warning whatsoever and these areas often the earthquake is the warning but because this was not an earthquake people did not have that signal.

HM: So in this instance of course we're focusing because of the tragedy on the affect that this is having you know on the people who live around Sumatra and Java but I gathered that the effect of the tsunami can actually be measured very far away where would people be looking to see the effect of this?

JK: At the moment the efforts are concentrated on the Sunda Strait which is a pretty decent sized area but because this was a relatively focused small tsunami -- it's not like these huge regional tsunamis that we get like we did in 2004 with the Boxing Day tsunami.

HM: Is there information though that can be gleaned from far away locations as to you know I guess to help researchers understand what happened?

JK: Yes absolutely. There are seismic networks throughout Indonesia and abroad. There's even an infrasound network which is further away from the volcano which is measuring -- kind of like the seismic waves through the ground but it's the waves through the air. So all of these can be looked at in-depth in time to come to look at what signals the collapse actually gave or if there were any signals before the collapse occurred that we could use to try and see these things occurring in real time in the future. While I hope there's something we can do to help people in the future I honestly don't know.

HM: In your understanding of all of this how long could this type of eruption continue?

JK: It could continue for quite some time. Krakatau is known erupt for weeks or months on end. But the eruption that is currently occurring is because the vent is located under the water. So once the volcano starts to build up a new smaller [inaudible] in the place of where the larger one was -- this might eventually go above that water level and then it could be smaller again more [inaudible] style of eruption at Krakatau. But I'm not sure how far below this is or how fast it's building up the volcano. So I just have no idea how long that might take.

HM: So it could take a considerable amount of time?

JK: It could but hopefully it won't for those living around it.

HM: Well it's a terrible situation and we'll continue to watch it with interest of course. Thank you very much for sharing your expertise with us.

JK: You're welcome.

JD: Janine Krippner is a volcanologist at Concord University. We reached her in Athens, West Virginia.

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Child border deaths

Guest: Colleen Kraft

JD: Felipe Gomez Alonso died Christmas Eve. He was eight years old. He is the second child from Guatemala to die in the custody of U.S. Customs and Border Control this month. A 7 year-old girl died earlier in December. Both deaths are under investigation. And Secretary of Homeland Security Kirstjen Nielsen has ordered bolstered medical screening of children at the border. But American Academy of Pediatrics President Dr. Colleen Kraft says more specific pediatric care is needed. We reached Dr. Kraft in Mission Viejo, California.

HM: Dr. Kraft two young children have died this month at your country's southern border. How is it that something like this happens?

COLLEEN KRAFT: I think that first of all these border facilities were built for single males and were not built for children. And in fact the American Academy of Pediatrics has come out against having children in these facilities. But that's one piece. But the second piece is that the people who are trained as medical professionals there are not trained in pediatrics -- and we're seeing a surge of children coming to this border processing facilities.

HM: So what are you suggesting? Should pediatricians be placed in those facilities to oversee the care of these children?

CK: Absolutely. So we have actually, the American Academy of Pediatrics, has reached out to the Department of Homeland Security and also Customs and Border Patrol and have said we are happy to help you but you need pediatric medical expertise in the screening and evaluation and the medical management of these children. But we also need unfettered access to these facilities because these facilities are cold, the lights are on 24/7, there's not adequate food and water, and there are open toilets. And these are conditions that will make a well child sick and will make a sick child sicker. If you're not medically trained to care for children, you're going to miss out on some of the subtle signs that differentiate a child with a mild illness from a child with a severe illness.

HM: What kind of maladies are we talking about? I mean when it comes to the conditions themselves in these facilities, how were they worsening the health of these children?

CK: If you're a child who has to sleep in a Mylar blanket and you've got a cold place and you're not adequately warm, that is a hit on your immune system and you can get sick. If you have to share utensils, you have to share cups, you might not have adequate water, you have lights on all the time so you don't get restful sleep. You have open toilets which are a place where you can get infections. These are all very bad things for creating child illness.

HM: And what about mental health?

CK: Incarceration on children is damaging to their brains, we know this. It creates a situation where their neuromodulation of hormones, their stress hormones, were they have epinephrine or epinephrine cortisol that stays high -- they may have a parent with them but that parent is stressed too. And given the core environment you've set up problems for attachment, for mental health disorders, for physical health disorders.

HM: You mentioned earlier that the AAP wants more access to the facilities -- have pediatricians that belong to your organization been able to tour any of the facilities?

CK: Our pediatricians have not been able to get in there any time recently. And we have asked. Now I will tell you that the commissioner of Customs and Border Control, Kevin McAleenan, called me yesterday and he recognizes that this is not an optimal place for children. And we had that first conversation where we may be able to partner to improve situations here and I really hope that that's possible.

HM: That's what he said to you, what did you say to him about your concerns and how it is that children are being kept in conditions like this when experts like yourself know how fundamentally bad this is?

CK: Well we repeated to him first of all, our offer to help -- that offer to help means that we are able to train personnel and that we have unfettered access to these facilities so we can monitor what's going on. Give advice in terms of what needs to happen to care for children and make sure that the children are not being traumatized and medically damaged in these facilities.

HM: Do you think after your conversation with the commissioner that you'll get that unfettered access?

CK: One can only hope. So we had an initial conversation and that's more than we've had in the past year -- so it's a good sign but it needs to be followed up with action.

HM: You know we've been hearing for many months about these conditions and the effect it's having on many of these young people both physical and psychological. What do you think -- it appears to have taken the deaths of these two children for you to have that conversation with the commissioner of Customs and Border Control?

CK: It's very sad that it took the death of children to get to this place. We have been outspoken about the conditions and what children need. And we're just hoping that this message is beginning to get through to our leaders and the Department of Homeland Security -- and that people can come together for the kids.

HM: Does it occur to you -- do you think there is some concern among your members that by offering to tour these facilities to provide support at least you know assess, screen, these children that in some way you may be endorsing the continuation of these facilities for housing these kids when really they shouldn't be in them at all?

CK: Let's be clear we're on the record and over and over again have said that detention facilities are not appropriate places for children -- children should never be in them. Children who come into our country under protective custody should be housed in community based family centres where they can receive medical care and trauma informed health care for themselves as well as their parents. But you've got to start somewhere and if starting somewhere in that we can come and start to assess, advise, and have unfettered access, it's a start.

HM: Well the Secretary of Homeland Security, Kirstjen Nielsen, has said that there is now more medical screening of children at the border and that she is going to visit to observe those screenings this week. She has also said and I'm quoting here, "smugglers, traffickers, and their own parents, put these minors at risk by embarking on the dangerous and arduous journey north." What do you think of her statement?

CK: When I've talked to the parents of these kids what they will tell you and what they have told me is that they are leaving conditions that if they were to have stayed they would be killed -- their children would be killed. They don't have a choice which is why they are taking the arduous journey north. People don't do that because they don't have anything better to do, they do this because they are fleeing violence. And if we can look at these families and these children as refugees and not the mischaracterization of them as criminals and traffickers, we could have a better idea of what they've gone through and maybe treat them with compassion and respect.

HM: Dr. Kraft thank you for joining us and sharing your concerns.

CK: Thanks, bye.

JD: Dr. Colleen Kraft is the President of the American Academy of Pediatrics. We reached her in Mission Viejo, California. For more on this story go to our website cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Michael MacLear

JD: Michael MacLear once said that the problem with journalism was that it's "addictive." The groundbreaking Canadian foreign correspondent had an addiction that ran deep. And his audiences, first at CBC and then at CTV, were all the richer for it. Mr. MacLear once counted the countries that he had reported from -- the tally bested 80. He did not do that reporting from a desk. Michael MacLear died Tuesday. He was 89 years old. A quick scan through the archives here at CBC shows Mr. MacLear going head to head with Fidel Castro shortly after he had taken power in Cuba. And then dodging fire to get a grunt side view of the United States war in Vietnam. But it was Mr. MacLear's coverage of the other side of that war that landed him in trouble with both Canada and the United States. He was the first network reporter to report from North Vietnam, telling firsthand not just the stories of American prisoners of war but also the stories of suffering produced by the United States' carpet bombing campaign of the north. In 2004 Mr. MacLear appeared on CBC TV's Mansbridge One on One. And Peter Mansbridge asked Mr. MacLear what he had found so compelling about Vietnam.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL MACLEAR: When I first went to Vietnam with the perceptions, misconceptions really -- I had been in China, I had been in Russia -- I expected to find the same robotic society, Marxism on the march, which is certainly how the United States sold the war. Instead I found a deeply nationalistic society and I had little doubt about that after a few days and it then became an issue for me, do you stick to the time honoured tradition of so-called objectivity? Or do you start to -- do you say this is wrong? Are the reasons we're fighting here or United States is fighting here are all wrong? And gradually I came to the conclusion that not to present a personal point of view was in a sense there was all the real facts. But it got me in trouble. It got me in trouble and I always wanted to go back and see, was I right or wrong? Well Vietnam today is still a Marxist state -- a kind of very relaxed you know, but the Vietnamese nationalism is evident everywhere. And in one of the interviews with the official military historian he says and I quote, 'America's greatest mistake was not to understand our nationalism. That was their greatest mistake.' And I think that is being repeated in other theatres in the world today -- nationalism is one of those 'isms' of war. It can be also called terrorism. But it is a question of really understanding your enemy what you're doing and not having blind faith in firepower as the answer to everything.

JD: That was documentarian and foreign correspondent Michael MacLear in conversation with Peter Mansbridge in 2004. Michael MacLear died this week. He was 89 years old.

[Music]

Encore: Trevor the Dog

JD: How do you deflate a dachshund? That is the question Jessica Jennings asked herself last summer when her wiener dog Trevor suddenly ballooned to twice his size in a matter of minutes. As we approach the end of 2018, we are replaying some of our most memorable interviews from the past year. So from May here is Carol in conversation with Ms. Jennings.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Jessica, just tell us the what did your dog — what did Trevor —look like before all this happened to him.

JESSICA JENNINGS: Before it happened, he was just a normal sausage dog. He was just a normal, little, cheeky, chappy, until his little problem happened.

CO: It started as a little problem became a big one. When did you first notice that there is something amiss with Trevor?

JJ: We first noticed when we come down in the morning. Me and my mum were sat having breakfast, and mum just passed a comment and said does Trevor look fat to you. So I looked at him and went yeah, a little bit. And then as we were sort of eating breakfast and doing our morning things, he just gradually started getting bigger and bigger. And then before we knew it, his head and his body resembled one big mass.

CO: This is before your eyes you were watching him grow.

JJ: It was in the space of literally half-an-hour.

CO: What did he look like?

JJ: He looked like a seal. Because seals obviously are all one body shape. He literally looks like a seal, and he’d just blown up like a really, really large balloon. There was no definition of where his head, his neck, his body, his legs. where any of it started. He was just one big blob.

CO: Oh dear! So more meat ball than sausage dog?

JJ: Definitely.

CO: And how was he reacting to this transformation?

JJ: He was very, very quiet. Trevor is very, very cheeky, and very mischievous. He's normally out chasing the chickens in the morning, and doing all the naughty things he does. And he would just lay very, very quiet. He wasn't really knew him much because he couldn't really walk, which we knew if Trevor is quiet, we know something is wrong with him.

CO: So you took him to the vet. What was the diagnosis?

JJ: The vet just took him straight away. They didn't even do a consult with us because they knew it was serious because there was risk of it obviously blocking his airways. Because when you picked him up, he felt like bubble wrap because he was all sort of crinkly underneath, so he felt wrong to us — he didn't just look it. So the vets took him, and what they said he basically had emphysema, where each Breath he took, air was escaping through the hole into his body. So every breath he took was making him go larger.

CO: Good Heavens! Is this a common thing that they've seen this before?

JJ: The vet that dealt with him said it was the first time she had ever seen it.

CO: Well, can you just describe it a bit better what was wrong? Where the hole was?

JJ: There was no visible holes to him. The hole had come in his windpipe, so that's why everybody was struggling to figure out what was wrong with them because nobody could see anything on him. It was only when they did x rays they found there was a hole in his windpipe, which is where the air was escaping through. So when he took a breath in his mouth, and it was travelling down his windpipe, that was then escaping inside his body.

CO: Good heavens! And where was it going when it escaped inside his body?

JJ: It was just stay in his body, hence why he was blowing up so much.

CO: It wasn't in his lungs?

JJ: It was more gathering around his heart because the pressure caused his heart to lift off his sternum. So it was it was more gathering round there, which was why it was so worrying for vets.

CO: Was he having a hard time breathing?

JJ: Yeah, he was pretty bad.

CO: Okay, so we'll skip to the end, just briefly for people who are concerned, Trevor is okay now. But when did the vets have to do?

JJ: They had to do an operation to stitch up the hole that was in his windpipe. And then once the hole was stitched up, they left a tiny, tiny little nick on the outside of the skin off him, so that then any air that was in them we had to gently squeeze them to release the air. And then once all the air was released, he was back to his normal self.

CO: You had to squeeze the air out of Trevor through this little hole?

JJ: Yeah. So we had to start from his bottom, and work up towards his head and neck, and gently squeeze the air out of him just to deflate him to make sure he was okay and his breathing was fine.

CO: How is Trevor responding to having the air squeezed out of him slowly through a hole?

JJ: He was dead happy. I think it was more of a relief for him. He took everything in stride. He’s such a friendly dog that he takes anything in his stride. And he trusts us 100 per cent, so he lets do anything to him.

CO: I'm sure any of us would be happy to have air squeezed out of us if we were like that — we were ballooned out. And Trevor is a working dog, right? he's got responsibilities.

JJ: Yes, Trevor is a little stud dog, so he has little ladies come and visit him. So he’s a family pet, but he does have stud duties to do.

CO: And has this interrupted his stud duties it all?

JJ: At the time, the girlfriend that he was due to have to come see him couldn't obviously come and visit him. But now he's now he's back Okay. He’s now back to doing his normal daily activities.

CO: He's back to his stud self then is he?

JJ: He is. He is indeed. He’s back around to knck up the chickens and keep the ladies in tow.

CO: All right, Jessica. I’m glad he’s OK. Thanks for speaking with us.

JJ: No problems. Thank you.

CO: Bye.

JJ: Bye.

JD: That was Jessica Jennings, owner of Trevor the dog, on the phone with Carol last May. That's one of our most memorable interviews from 2018. And you can hear that again and share it and find more on that story on the As It Happens website cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 2: Indigenous educator named Officer of the Order of Canada

Order of Canada: Leroy Little Bear

Guest: Leroy Little Bear

JD: More than 100 new appointments to the Order of Canada were announced today. These are Canadians who have shaped their society and whose contributions have enriched the lives of their fellow citizens. One of those named to the level of Officer of the Order of Canada is Leroy Little Bear. The retired educator was born and raised on the Blood Reserve. Mr. Little Bear was commended for his quote, 'advocacy of indigenous rights and self-governance and his work promoting access to education for Indigenous peoples.' We reached Leroy Little Bear in Lethbridge, Alberta.

HM: Leroy Little Bear, first of all congratulations on this latest honour -- what does it mean to you?

LEROY LITTLE BEAR: I'm just letting it digest so to speak. I'm just taking it all in. It's hard to really articulate you know the feeling I have for the honour that's been bestowed on me.

HM: I understand that Order recipients are told in advance but sworn to secrecy so I'm wondering how hard it is to keep something like this to yourself?

LLB: I was told about let's say maybe a month or so ago -- I totally did put it out of my mind. But now that it's been made public it's coming home to roost.

HM: Now you have been elevated to Officer of the Order of Canada in part because of your work promoting access to education for Indigenous peoples. And that's not just in Canada but also around the world. What role has education played in your own life?

LLB: Einstein once defining what science is about said science is about a search for reality -- education is similar to that. Education is kind of a search for the unknown -- it's a search for reality. And when you do discover that, it brings about a whole bunch of benefits, capacity, satisfaction, that benefit to the community.

HM: I understand that your mother gave you a little push to finally get you to go to university.

LLB: Yes. I was at a college -- a kind of a junior college in Wenatchee, Washington. And one day I got a call from my mom and she said, 'Hey! You know they are starting a brand new university right here at home in the city of Lethbridge. Why don't you come home and go to school?' And I looked into it and I came on home and I applied. And who would have known I'm still with the University of Lethbridge.

HM: And this was in 1968 I understand -- I mean how many other Indigenous students were there with you?

LLB: There probably was less than what I can count on my one hand when I started in the second semester of its existence in January of 1968.

HM: What in your mind are the biggest impediments at this time to education for Indigenous people?

LLB: Number one I would say, hey we need better schools in the Native community -- the reserve communities. Secondly, financial needs of students in the cities because of course we don't have universities in Native communities so sometimes Native students have to go a long ways, long distance, to go to school -- and even though academically they do well but cannot support themselves through university and so on. And of course socially they do run into discrimination, prejudice, racial problems -- not so much within the university, although some of that does exist, but usually in the communities that they have to live in while going to school. I have you know a granddaughter for instance, I'm hoping she doesn't have to experience those kind of issues when she's going to university in the future.

HM: You were the director of Harvard University's Native American program. What was it like looking after Indigenous students in such a prestigious and some would argue exclusive setting?

LLB: It was a real tremendous experience going to Harvard and teaching where students can handle it, the academic part of it, but again sometimes financially some have to drop out a lot of times because they can't quite meet the financial requirements. You know the 40/50-thousand dollar tuition is pretty expensive for a student coming from a reservation setting. And yes some of them do get assistance but not enough.

HM: You are also a well-known advocate for what is called the Buffalo Treaty. Can you tell us what that is and why it is so important to you?

LLB: The Buffalo is -- you know we are the buffalo and the buffalo is us. It's been about 10 years that at least now that we've been working on buffalo restoration. A large part of our stories, our ceremonies, our songs, are connected to the buffalo. It's a cultural keystone animal. The elders said, hey even though we still have all the ceremonies, the songs, the stories, we don't see and our younger people do not see that buffalo on a daily basis. If you are a Christian but you don't see that corner church you don't see crosses -- you can have all the Christian beliefs but you would be just a little bit less Christian wouldn't you? That's the reason why we started working on buffalo restoration -- to strengthen, revitalize, that culture of the [inaudible] Indians -- like the black foot. We were thrilled to know and to see the buffalo up there in Banff and in fact this past summer they took all the fences down and now they're free roaming buffalo which was the dream of our elders.

HM: Leroy Little Bear, congratulations once again and thank you very much for speaking with us today. It's been a real privilege.

LLB: Thank you very much. And it was my honour.

JD: Leroy Little Bear was named an Officer of the Order of Canada today. We reached him in Lethbridge. Among the other Order of Canada recipient named today: CBC journalist Gloria Macarenko. Ms. Macarenko is a longtime journalist with the CBC in British Columbia where she is the host of Radio One's "On The Coast." The Order recognized her for contributions to Canadian broadcasting and for her charitable work with organizations such as Cystic Fibrosis Canada, among others. She told the CBC's Early Edition how that charitable work began.

SOUNDCLIP

GLORIA MACARENKO: Well it starts with one emceeing event I think and then you are just exposed to an entire community. Let me use the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation as an example. It was someone who had lost his granddaughter to CF at age 12 that asked me initially to emcee and this is 15-16 years ago I think. And you get to know the families. You get to know the children. And at that time -- even then it was rare to live beyond the age of 20 with cystic fibrosis. And year after year -- I mean from my perspective it was the very least I could do to come and lead a gala and try to get you know some funds raised to help save lives literally. And I've watched for cystic fibrosis -- people are living longer, they are living better, and so are you -- I guess you get to know families and you just want to get involved with that. So I guess it's beyond, for me, it's beyond just showing up, it's trying to be present to contribute and I guess to make the connections with those communities.

JD: That was CBC host Gloria Macarenko in conversation with CBC's Early Edition. Ms. Macarenko was appointed to the Order of Canada today.

[Music]

Paddy Ashdown

JD: Looking at his resume, you would be forgiven for thinking that Paddy Ashdown would have gravitated toward the right-wing of UK politics, but the former Marine officer and diplomat became one of the most successful leaders of left leaning Liberal-Democrats in the late 80s and 90s. Paddy Ashdown died on the weekend at the age of 77. Mr. Ashdown is credited with turning the Lib-Dems from a fringe group that operated in the shadow of the Labour Party into a credible national force with real political power. Under his leadership the Lib-Dems won 46 seats in the 1997 election. But Mr Ashdown's dream of uniting the Lib-Dems and Labour to form a single political force never did quite materialize. After the death of another political icon -- Margaret Thatcher, Carol spoke to Paddy Ashdown about the PM's legacy. Here is some of that conversation from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

PADDY ASHDOWN: You know I went into politics in 1976 and she was just about coming on the scene precisely because Britain was regarded as the 'Sick Man of Europe.' We were disregarded. We were regarded as the failing nation -- as a nation on inevitable decline. And she reversed that.

CAROL OFF: Your own personal experience -- as you just touched on that -- you are facing her down in the House of Commons.

PA: Yes [chuckles] I've had a life not without its little excitements but I can tell you nothing terrorized me more than as a young wet behind the ears leader of the Liberal party that numbering perhaps 30 members of parliament taking her on head to head at the full plenitude of her powers in the House of Commons and being literally hand bagged every week in front of the television cameras of the nation was not my most pleasurable experience. Now she and I fought -- sometimes I was right. More times I suspect she was right. When I went to Bosnia and I wanted to rebuild the Bosnian economy -- as a higher representative I did all the things that she did -- and I [inaudible] liberalized the markets, brought down taxes, got industries and small business going again. But that's what politics is about. I don't belong to her politics. I don't support her politics. I mean she did great damage to the country in certain areas not least our isolationism from Europe -- but I've no doubt about the power of the personality or her success as prime minister.

CO: It's claimed that she once said of you, Ashdown glittering Army career. Can't imagine what he's doing in the Liberal Democrats -- should be a Tory.

PA: [Laughs] I think that offended her. But she soon discovered I wasn't. But again we were political enemies. She was immensely courteous to everybody except her own Cabinet. I think she was an extraordinary lady and I must say that if we on the left had had people who had shown such courage determination and principle about our ideas as she has done about hers, perhaps the left had government better positioned during the 1980s.

JD: From our archives that was former UK Liberal Democrat leader Paddy Ashdown speaking about Margaret Thatcher in 2013. Lord Ashdown died last week at age 77.

[Music]

Mark Critch eBay War

Guest: Melissa Royle and Mark Critch

JD: They each found the other the perfect gift. Each had their eyes on something heartfelt, something obscure, something that only a Newfoundlander could truly appreciate. Which makes sense, since I'm talking about Melissa Royle and her fiancé, Mark Critch. Mr. Critch you will know from CBC's This Hour Has 22 Minutes. So it was a perfect gift. The only problem was that the couple were unwittingly bidding against each other for the same would be present on the online auction site eBay. We reached Melissa Royle and Mark Critch in St. John's.

HM: First of all hello to you both and a bit of a belated Merry Christmas.

MARK CRTICH: Merry Christmas.

MELISSA ROYLE: Merry Christmas.

HM: Thanks a lot. So Melissa what was it that you were bidding for on eBay?

MR: I was bidding on a souvenir plate from the Trinity train loop which was an amusement park based around the theme of the Newfoundland railway and it was located just outside Trinity in Newfoundland which is the place that we have a cabin and we're actually getting married in next summer. So I saw it on eBay and I thought it was cute -- like giving each other kind of sentimental piece of Newfoundlandia for a gift, so I bid on it.

HM: What does the plate look like?

MR: It's like the size of like a dessert plate or something I guess and it has a railway track around the rim of it and a little train and then there's the mascot to Choo Choo Charlie in the middle of it and then it says Trinity Train Loop, Newfoundland.

HM: So it's a very elegant piece.

MR: [Chuckles] Oh yes very very fine china indeed.

HM: Mark you had your eye on this special gift at the very same time why did you want to get the plate for Melissa?

MC: Well we are always trying to find neat little unique things to give each other. And so there are certain words I'm always looking for on the internet like you know, Newfoundland historical vintage Trinity, you know things like that. And I came across this little plate and there's not that much you know stuff that you would find online that is related to Trinity which a very special place to us. So I thought, oh this would be perfect and only Melissa would probably be interested in this. So normally these things you get for quite the steal. But then I noticed that somebody was bidding against me and I thought who's this nerd? [Laughter] Like who could possibly be interested in this plate? I'm surely to God the only person on earth that wants this. I was getting frustrated -- getting way above like you know that high but certainly above the value of the plate. Then Melissa came in the room.

HM: So Melissa let me get from your side of this. You started bidding on this plate when?

MR: I guess late November. Probably yeah. Just a couple of weeks before Christmas and then I think it was -- I went back through and my eBay notifications and realised yeah it was December 1st then -- I got an update that someone else had bid against me. Same thing I thought that's strange but you know it happens. But then it kept going back and forth and then I came down and asked Mark and turned to him and said, are you bidding on something on eBay? It has to be him [laughter] -- there's no other way.

MC: So I said to her like oh yeah the plate? And she said yes and I said okay I surrender. I give up.

MR: Called a truce.

HM: Were you driving up the bid significantly? Like are we talking you know like when you're at a silent auction you're trying to pump it up to get the charity more money.

MC: What is interesting like it was like I'll bid. She bid. I bid. She bid. I bid. Then she came down said okay this is clearly the call is coming from within the house as they say.

HM: So who gave in?

MR: We're talking dollars. So eventually because we called a truce -- Mark was a gentlemen, let me buy it for him as a Christmas gift and I paid I think a big whopping sum of 25 dollars for it at the end. [Laughs]

HM: Did you wrap it up extra special?

MC: Yeah I knew what the plate thing size -- the plate size thing under the tree was for sure. [Laughter]

MR: But I did hide it in a Winston Churchill [inaudible] so he did not know [laughter].

MC: But the funny thing about this is this isn't the first time this has happened. So this is two Christmases in a row. Last year I thought it'll be interesting you know like we had gone deep watching The Crown and like you know Melissa was a kind of on a royal kick -- so I tried to find something Newfoundland royal related. So I got a card from the lieutenant governor, the first lieutenant governor of Newfoundland -- a Christmas card that year. I thought that that will be my Christmas card to her. And then she gives me...

MR: The same thing. [Laughter] The lieutenant governor -- the first one after Confederation but a slightly different card but from the same person, the same idea and we got them at different antique shops so I don't even know... [Laughs]

HM: My husband and I once gave each other the same anniversary card but I think it was just from Hallmark [laughs]. So are you both like really heavily into Newfoundland history and trivia?

MC: Yeah that's sort of like what we first kind of came together about. I was talking to Melissa in a pub, the Duke of Duckworth, where we often go in and then she you know -- I don't know how it came up but then she had all these facts about this person and that person like political history too she's quite nerdy about. And I thought well who is this person? And you know that's kind of really what set us off I think -- was our shared love which seems to be continuing and I can't wait to see what I get myself next year when I buy Melissa's Christmas present.

MR: I think I found the only person who I can pick up with you know a shared love of Brian Pickford and Joey Smallwood [laughter].

HM: So where's the plate now? Is it going to have pride of place?

MC: Well you know what it's in the kitchen looking at me right now but I think after all this it's going to have -- I don't know I'm going to have to be get like a belt buckle made of it or something. [Laughter] We'll have to buy a case for old Choo Choo Charlie -- the Trinity train display.

HM: Maybe you can use it in your wedding next year -- serve the cake off it or something.

MC: There you go. There you go. Perfect idea. That's great.

MR: That's an excellent idea.

HM: Sounds like the year ahead is going to be special for the two of you with your wedding and everything. Thanks very much for talking to us.

MC: Thank you very much. Happy New Year.

MR: Thank you so much. Happy holidays to you too.

HM: Thank you Melissa. Bye bye.

JD: Melissa Royle is a St. John's lawyer. Mark Critch is a comedian and This Hour Has 22 Minutes anchor at CBC. We reached them both in St. John's.

[Music]

Sister Wendy Beckett

JD: Sister Wendy Beckett was a Roman Catholic nun who found fame late in life as an improbable and yet hugely popular TV art critic. Sister Wendy died yesterday. She was 88 years old. She was born in South Africa in 1930 and first joined a convent when she was 16 years old. In 1950 her order sent her to Oxford where she graduated with top honours in English literature. After a teaching career she set for a quiet life of prayer, for writing, and publishing art history books in religious solitude. And then in 1991 Sister Wendy was coaxed out of Hermitage into a career as a TV presenter. A BBC producer saw an impromptu video of her at an art exhibit and asked her to star in a TV documentary about Britain's National Gallery. Many more TV art series would follow. Here is Sister Wendy doing what she was known for next to a painting by American artist Mark Rothko.

SOUNDCLIP

SISTER WENDY BECKETT: I'm not just afraid that you won't think this Mark Rothko beautiful. But what I am afraid a little is that somebody might think it's just beautiful -- lovely colours, no meaning. Meaning was what he was all about and he would have been furiously angry if anyone thought that and told you so in suitably salty language. It was a subject matter that mattered to him and the subject matter was the emotions. Not small personal emotions in an up to date down tomorrow but the great time -- how we feel about death and courage and ecstasy.

JD: Sister Wendy Beckett presenting a piece by American artist Mark Rothko on the 1996 BBC television series 'Sister Wendy's Story of Painting.' Sister Wendy died yesterday in East Harling, England. She was 88 years old.

[Music]

Part 3: As it Happened: The Archive Edition - The Crime & Punishment Episode

Chapter 1: No-kill bill

JD: The following is an encore presentation of our summer series featuring highlights from 50 years of As It Happens archives. This is As It Happened. The Archive Edition.

[Music]

JD: Tonight's theme: Crime and Punishment -- stories of justice served and justice swerved. No-Kill Bill. 42 years ago Canada's historic vote on whether to abolish the death penalty left one man's hopes to see it axed hanging in the balance.

SOUNDCLIP

I don't think Canadians are blood-thirsty people. I think if I had a chance to give them a lot of the information that I have they would agree with me.

JD: Comply or die. A New Mexico Senator shares a shocking prescription for how to deal with prisoners of almost any stripe: if you can't rehabilitate, you must terminate.

SOUNDCLIP

At 15 years -- any time you get over that in my opinion, that's enough.

JD: And loaf thy neighbour. Residents of Melbourne, Florida are bemused by a local Robin Hood who snatches bread from local grocery chains and deposits it on their doorsteps.

SOUNDCLIP

He said he heard a noise at the door and he opened the door -- he said he was stepping all over bread. I think he had about 150 some loafs on porch.

JD: As It Happened. The Archived Edition. Radio that assumes in terms of dough, the culprit insisted on taking only what was kneaded.

[Music: Theme]

JD: July 14th, 1976. With the historic passing of Bill C-84, Canadian parliament votes to end capital punishment in this country. Canada had ceased executions more than a decade before -- with a double hanging in 1962. But through a partial ban and then a moratorium, the death penalty remained in the books until that vote in the summer of '76. It was one of the closest parliamentary votes in history. 131 members in favour of abolition. 124 against. The man who tabled that bill was the country's solicitor general at the time, Warren Allmand. And the year before he spoke with then As It Happens host Barbara Frum about his hopes for the bill and the reasons he tabled it. And we apologize for the occasionally faltering condition of the tape in this segment.

SOUNDCLIP

BARBARA FRUM: Mr. Allmand?

WARREN ALLMAND: Yes Barbara.

BF: Why do you feel so strongly on this issue do you think?

WA: Well I think every life is important. I think every life is sacred. And the only way I can see a life being taken is if it's in self-defence and then it should be the last resort. Sometimes in defending your own life you may have to take the life of another. But I think that's the only circumstance in which you can kill somebody. Consequently I don't think we can apply capital punishment.

BF: Where do you think the country is on the...

WA: Well in the popular polls, the country seems to favour capital punishment. However in these polls the questions are put are usually very simplistic questions. Usually it's a question like -- do you favour capital punishment? Or do you favour capital punishment for the killing of policemen or for some other type of person? And I think people that answer those questions -- I don't think they want to see wide scale use of capital punishment but what they're really trying to say to the government was that they want something done about violent crime. They want something done about murder. And it appears to them that capital punishment is the answer to murder. So I don't know if we had a chance to dialogue in an intensive way with all Canadians and we showed them other alternatives and we showed them the implications of applying capital punishment. I don't know if they still hold that view but it's very difficult to do that kind of thing.

BF: What if it could be demonstrated that the Canadian people didn't want dialogue -- they wanted hanging -- would you refuse to act on that?

WA: Well Parliament is a free institution and the present law on capital punishment will automatically expire at the end of 1977. This means that we have to put a bill to parliament before the next election -- before the expiry date. If parliament rejected an abolition bill or a partial abolition bill then bring back capital punishment on a wider basis, I couldn't administer such a law. Parliament certainly could do it and maybe they'd find ministers that would administer this law. I don't deny the right of the Canadian people through their parliament to do that. I would think it would be a real sad day in the history of Canada if we went back that way and I would argue and try and fight against such a move. But if I lost, that would be the will of Parliament. But I couldn't administer such a law.

BF: [Inaudible] too complicated to decide quickly -- apparently the cabinet is with you on this, you aren't alone.

WA: Well we haven't discussed it yet in cabinet -- not in full cabinet. But it's complicated because it's not just a question of abolishing capital punishment there could be a situation where you could have a limited type of capital punishment we have a limited type now but some people have suggested that we should have it for premeditated or contract murders rather than for the murder of policemen and prison guards and there are all the ranges of opinions in that area for a limited type of capital punishment. I'm opposed to any type.

BF: Can you explain how this is affecting you personally to handle a piece of legislation that maybe the majority of the country doesn't back you on?

WA: Well when you run for office at least this is my attitude on politics you run because you're committed to certain things. And when I ran 10 years ago I was committed to this particular principle. I've already voted three times on capital punishment and always for abolition. And I feel what is the use of being in politics if you can't do something that is worthwhile? I think that I could convince the majority of Canadians that capital punishment is a bad thing if I really had a chance to sit down with them long enough. I don't think Canadians are basically bloodthirsty people -- I think they are humane people and they believe in justice, they are civilized people and I know a lot of them don't agree with me now but I think that if I had a chance to give them a lot of the information that I have that they would agree with me.

BF: Mr. Allmand we thank you for coming on tonight.

WA: Thank you. Bye now.

JD: From May of 1975 the late former Solicitor General Warren Allmand speaking with Barbara Frum. On July 14th, 1976, Canada's parliament voted to abolish capital punishment.

[Music]

Chapter 2: Comply, or die

JD: One politician Mr. Allmand probably would have had difficulty persuading was Senator Tim Jennings. Fortunately for Mr. Allmand, it was neither Senator Jenning's time nor place to participate in Canada's vote. Mr. Jennings was a Democratic member of the New Mexico Senate. And nearly 20 years after Canada abolished capital punishment, Senator Jennings argued for an expansion of that state's death penalty laws. His proposal: any serious criminal who was deemed "unrehabilitated" after 15 years in the correctional system should be executed. Here is some of his conversation with then As It Happens host Michael Enright, in 1995.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Senator Jennings this seems to be a bit harsh, doesn't it? That after 15 years if there's no sign of rehabilitation you just kill him.

TIM JENNINGS: Well it sounds a little harsh but when you look at modern reality -- 15 years you look at a cost in the neighbourhood of 30 to 35 thousand dollars per prisoner to incarcerate them in a jail -- 15 years means that you spent over a half a million dollars on these individuals to conform with society. If you spent that much money then you know they can either go somewhere else of their choosing or you know that's the way it goes.

ME: How would it work? How would you decide for example who is incorrigible?

TJ: Well I think you have to change a lot of our sentencing structures that are there now. So if they steal something -- maybe they got two years for stealing you know a piece of property. So you get two years for that or three years, somewhere in that. If they had a crime against another person where they actually went in and assaulted someone and did physical damage to them or personal damage to them then you would probably increase that amount of time to say you know seven years, seven and a half years, eight years, somewhere in that. For an actual crime of violence against another human then you...

ME: So this would then be a cumulative thing, is that it? Like a criminal who winds up -- gets a total of 15 years sentences over a period of time.

TJ: Yeah you know I think you have to revamp the system to do it -- to make it work. But you know we've got enough crimes on our books now where you give people 10 years or 15 years and they serve four or five years of it and then they're back on the street. You know some would point we have to mean what we say and do what we say.

ME: Does New Mexico have capital punishment?

TJ: Yes.

ME: So for murder, first degree murder, and so on, there's the death penalty?

TJ: You know I'm just saying that we have a number of people in our society that never did anything wrong to anyone and we don't have any means to give them a little bit of assistance because there's no money. You look at a person who is maybe born with Down syndrome -- you know in our state right now we have a waiting list of probably 500 to 1000 for Down's. We have a waiting list for programs to help the mentally ill. There's no money for them. Yet we always have plenty of money for prisoners.

ME: So you are saying the priorities are all screwed up?

TJ: Yeah. And we sit here and we pay everything for all these people who are bad at their own choosing. We pay for them forever. And I'm saying that there's enough other people who could use the services and need the money. And so I'm just saying there's an amount out there that is a finite number, that is a lot of money to make somebody conform to society -- if they don't like our rules here, leave. Go somewhere else. You know -- I don't know do they need three times before you do anything to them.

ME: So you are not talking about three strikes and you are out -- you are talking about 15 years and you're out literally.

TJ: 15 years and any time you get over that in my opinion you know that's enough. I think most people are so fed up with crime and violence against other individuals that it doesn't sound too bad.

JD: New Mexico State Senator Tim Jennings in conversation with Michael Enright on As It Happens in 1995.

[Music]

Chapter 3: Pathetic justice

JD: Senator Jennings proposal might have appealed to Marty Stroud at one time -- as a young Louisiana prosecutor. But he wouldn't have much time for it today. Mr. Stroud was one of the main reasons Glenn Ford spent nearly 30 years on death row in Angola prison for a murder he did not commit. And after Mr. Ford was finally exonerated in 2014 and seeking compensation from the state, Marty Stroud wrote an op-ed in The Shreveport Times in which he expressed shame for his role in Mr. Ford's incarceration and stated quote, "the clear reality is that the death penalty is an anathema to any society that purports to call itself civilized." Days after his letter was published Marty Stroud spoke with As It Happens host Carol Off.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Mr. Stroud what compelled you 30 years after the fact to sit down and write a letter of apology to Glenn Ford?

MARTY STROUD: I think the final straw -- I've never written a letter before to the editor. I didn't ever think I would. But when the state took the position that Mr. Ford was not entitled to any compensation, I wanted one, indicate that he should receive the compensation --and two, to talk about the unfairness of the process.

CO: You mean the process that you guided, you led, as the prosecutor -- you were the person who put Glenn Ford on death row.

MS: Well you can say that and I can't argue with that. I was part of the process. That's correct. Did I feel that I was doing anything wrong at the time? No I thought I was on the side of right and justice and that this man deserved [inaudible] I have been proven wrong and I accept that responsibility.

CO: You've written in your letter that you were arrogant, judgemental, narcissistic, full of yourself. Pretty harsh. Who were you back then?

MS: I was a young prosecutor that was bent on doing justice as I saw it -- the ends justify the means. I didn't stop and think and that's the problem -- well with the whole system about the consequences of trying a death penalty case -- I was not a very good person back then looking back on it.

CO: The trial itself -- the evidence was circumstantial. You had no eyewitness to the crime. You could not produce a murder weapon. The expert witnesses. The evidence they gave has been found inconclusive or even wrong. Chief testimony from Marvella Brown she admitted that she lied to the court. How did you get the conviction?

MS: I don't remember the details of my argument except the rebuttal part of the case. I got up on behalf of the state and argued that Glenn Ford got on the stand and told you he wanted to stay alive so he can right this wrong. In other words he's calling you jurors incompetent and that should be an affront to you in a mocking tone. And those words haunt me almost every day.

CO: It sounds like you were a very effective prosecutor.

MS: Well effective in a way but dangerous in a way because I mean I just didn't stop and think about the process itself and what we were trying to do. So I'm ashamed of that conduct. I wish I had it to do over again but you can only move forward and try to learn from the mistakes.

CO: You wrote in your letter that after you got the conviction that you all went out to celebrate. What did you feel that you had accomplished?

MS: I felt like I had accomplished justice. And we had gotten the first death penalty in Caddo Parish in several years and I was proud of that fact. That was -- it was a celebration of foolishness to say the least. I can't see celebrating somebody's death regardless of the circumstances -- it shows a total lack of empathy.

CO: Glenn Ford is the 144th death row inmate to be exonerated. And now he's struggling to get compensation before he dies of cancer. He's in stage four cancer. What do you want Glenn Ford to take away from all of this?

MS: Well I want Glenn Ford to obviously be compensated. I want him to be reunited with his family if not already. I want him to have happy days joyful days which he didn't have for 30 years. I want his case to have meaning in the overall scheme of things. We don't need a 145th person to be exonerated -- if we abolish the death penalty. And I think his case is right out there in front showing why the death penalty is simply not effective or just. I believe there's a special place in heaven for people like Glenn Ford who have suffered so much on this earth as a result of the injustices of the system.

JD: Marty Stroud was lead prosecutor in the murder trial of Glenn Ford. Mr. Ford was the longest serving death row inmate to be exonerated before his death. He died in June of 2015 -- a little more than a year after his release from prison. Marty Stroud now heads a criminal defense firm.

[Music]

Chapter 4: Unauthorized trance action

JD: You are listening to As It Happened: The Archived Edition -- where we delve into 50 years worth of archives of As It Happens. This week's episode: Crime and Punishment. When As It Happens spoke with British shopkeeper Muhammed Zamir in 1977 it was because he had been held captive against his will but not behind bars or locked doors or in fact restraints of any kind -- in fact without having so much as a finger laid upon him and not as punishment but in the course of his captor committing a crime against him. Zamir was the victim of powerful mind suggestion. Here's former As It Happens host Al Maitland introducing his interview with Barbara.

SOUNDCLIP

AL MAITLAND: Mind over matter is responsible for the latest crime wave in Ilford, England. A tall dark stranger known as the black magic bandit has literally been holding his victims spellbound. The police are red faced as they continue their hunt for the mesmerizing master of a hypnotic heist. And shopkeeper Muhammed Zamir, a recent victim, is standing by now at his home in Ilford, England.

BF: Mr. Zamir what hit you?

MUHAMMED ZAMIR: While I was looking at this note -- I don't really know what he has done. I lost my consciousness you know but not completely. I knew what was going on. I could see you know that he picked up the money and I can't remember any more from it.

BF: But you were powerless.

MZ: Yes.

BF: You couldn't talk.

MZ: No I couldn't talk.

BF: You couldn't walk -- what did you see him do?

MZ: Will all I frankly remember is it's just like a dream you know to me that -- he picked up the note you know from my [inaudible] and I try to hold it. And that was it. You know. After that I frankly remember that he just walked away.

BF: You never fell down in a swoon?

MZ: Never fell down.

BF: You were just frozen.

MZ: Yes.

BF: Did you have funny noises in your head? What was happening to you?

MZ: Not funny noises you know -- I feel a little bit different.

BF: Do you think he hypnotized you?

MZ: Well myself -- you it was the first time really -- I wouldn't know you know. But it was a rather strange way in which he did it. You know I just couldn't sort of come over him you see.

BF: Have police ever heard one like this before?

MZ: The police spokesman said to me on interview that money you know has been taken by trick but not by this method you know they reckon that it was rather a trick not the hypnotism. In our country, in Pakistan, you know we believe in this sort of thing and these have happened. We've seen these things happen you know.

BF: Has he been operating in that district since?

MZ: Well we heard one police officer came and told me that the person that he had struck at miles from me you know to another shop and that is also Asian.

BF: He went into another Pakistani shop?

MZ: Yeah and he did the exact same thing. The person tells that -- he also gave a 20 pound note. He asked for the change. And upon presenting that note while he was looking at it what he has done he can't remember and he just took I think it was a hundred and seventy five pound or something like that.

BF: Maybe that's a doctored bill. Maybe there's something in that note that makes you woozy.

MZ: Well if something in the note then obviously he has touched himself you see.

BF: You didn't smell any fumes -- it didn't feel wet to you?

MZ: No no. I didn't feel anything whatsoever at that time.

BF: Are you easy to trick? Are you a gullible person?

MZ: Yes. You know to some extent you could say that yes.

BF: Well you better stop looking at your customers in the eye Mr. Zamir [chuckles].

MZ: [Chuckles] Yeah that it's right. You know you're right there.

BF: Always stare at the bridge of the nose that's the way you can break the spell.

MZ: They taught me a lesson really.

BF: Oh good.

MZ: It's very odd experience.

BF: I'll say. Bye bye.

MZ: Bye bye. Thank you very much.

JD: Mohammed Zamir. A victim of the so-called black magic bandit speaking with Barbara Frum in October 1977.

[Music]

Chapter 5: Loaf thy neighbour

JD: The previous year shopkeepers in the town of Melbourne, Florida were being ransacked by a wheat thief who despite a noble aim to spread the loaves still had plenty of bread on his hands. Here once again are Al Maitland and Barbara Frum with the story.

SOUNDCLIP

AM: Twice in the last week, residents of the small Florida town of Melbourne have wakened up to find groceries on their front doorsteps courtesy of a self-styled Robin Hood who claims that he's stealing from the rich to give to the poor. According to the Melbourne police who are not at all amused to find themselves cast in the role of Sheriff of Nottingham -- this culprit has been stealing bread and vegetables from local grocery stores and delivering the produce around the neighbourhood. So far the police have recovered eight loaves of white bread, two pumpernickel, and an undisclosed number of carrots. For an up to date report on Robin Hood's daring escapades we go to Bill Belleville of Today Magazine. Barbara.

BF: How much has Mr. Hood given away so far?

BILL BELLEVILLE: Well they've really been unable to determine. They know that there's been thefts in four different food stores in the south part Brevard County. And it has amounted to several hundred loaves of bread and unknown quantity of radishes, carrots, potatoes, sort of vegetables.

BF: Kind of a vegetable freak.

BB: Well [laughs] he could be or he could be in the bread too. He seems to have taken more bread than vegetables.

AM: How come he's not observed?

BB: He seems to be striking in the early morning hours -- 4:00 o'clock -- just before the sun comes up. The produce and bread people have delivered their bread and produce in the stores and in this morning the stores aren't open today so leave them stacked up outside. And then a Robin Hood type of character comes along and removes them just as rapidly.

BF: Now what is his distribution pattern?

BB: Doesn't seem to have any rhyme or reason to it -- just kind of sporadic. He goes through local neighbourhoods and drops it off at various homes.

AM: Well he doesn't knock on the door and give the lady a loaf of bread either just leaves it on the lawn or something doesn't he?

BB: Yeah he usually throw it on the lawn or the doorstep. I recall talking to a fellow who received some bread last Monday and he said he heard a noise at the door he opened the door he said he was stepping all over bread. I think he had about a 150 some loaves just on his porch which seem to me to be a pretty large porch.

AM: That's a lot of bread to deliver you know without being seen.

BB: Yeah well the people at the grocery stores are pretty sure the guy must be driving a van or a large truck because he's been wiping out their entire bread deliveries. I asked the police if they ever recovered any of the stuff and they say they have recovered very little. So apparently very little of it has been reported. Otherwise people were eating the stuff.

AM: Making out on bread and radishes eh?

BB: Yeah. Well another thing to -- the bread that has been recovered they put it in the freezer at the police station and then I talked to an officer today and ask them what's going to become of it -- he says well from time to time they will eat it.

BF: Going to make for some pretty funny look evidence if this guy ever comes to trial.

BB: Yeah there is probably very little of it left. But you know if they don't catch him pretty soon...

BF: Well when he starts handing out the roast beef call us back. [Laughter] Thanks a lot.

BB: Sure. You're welcome.

BF: Bye.

BB: Bye.

JD: Journalist Bill Belleville speaking with Barbara Frum and Al Maitland in January, 1976.

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December 27, 2018 Episode Transcript

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