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The AIH Transcript for December 21, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight...

CO: Let them go. Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland tells us about her conversation with the Chinese ambassador today where she demanded the release of two Canadian.

JD: General depressions. Donald Trump says his defense secretary is retiring -- but General Mattis is firing off a critique of his boss on his way out.

CO: Match V. Kid. A report from Sweden where a town is once again divided between the defenders of a Goliath-sized Christmas goat, and the arsonists who want to burn it down.

JD: Bone to pick. British Columbians chose not to change the way they choose their political leaders and a disappointed electoral reformer blames...too much choice.

CO: Is it just too syrupy? Torontonians debate their city's new nickname after a magazine's report on the exodus from Silicon Valley redubs Hogtown as ‘Maple Valley.’

JD: Yum. And otter disbelief! We bid goodbye to Eddie the California otter who became famous first for his skill as a basketball player and then for his skill with something else. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio with plenty more on that score.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Journal removes poop drawing with Donald Trump's face — but offers no explanation

China: Freeland

Guest: Chrystia Freeland

JD: Michael Kovrig has now been in detention for 11 days. The Canadian diplomat was on leave and working for an international NGO when he was picked up by Chinese authorities. Reports now say that Mr. Kovirg is being denied legal representation and is being kept in a cell with the lights on 24 hours a day. He was one of two Canadians arrested in China last week. The other is the entrepreneur, Michael Spavor. Both arrests followed tough talk from China over Canada's arrest of the Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou in response to an extradition request from the United States. Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister met with China's Ambassador to Canada earlier today. We reached Minister Chrystia Freeland in Ottawa.

CO: Minister Freeland we know you had a chance to speak with the Chinese ambassador in Canada today. What did you say to him or ask him about the detention of Michael Kovrig?

CHYRSTIA FREELAND: Well I said to be Ambassador that Canada is calling for the immediate release of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor. I also spoke about Canada's insistence that these two Canadians be treated properly.

CO: We have Canadian media reports of alarming details of how Michael Kovrig is being detained -- apparently being interrogated day and night, having lights on all that time, not access to legal counsel. I'm sure you have even better sources than we do about what might be happening with him. Did you raise those concerns with the Chinese ambassador?

CF: I raised each of those concerns. He said he would look into the matter.

CO: So as far as you're concerned you're getting accurate information about how at least Mr. Kovrig is being treated in China?

CF: The reports that we have, some of which are public, are definitely not acceptable and Canada has been very clear about that. I'm in close contact with the Kovrig and the Spavor families -- and I think we have to remember these are human beings we're talking about. Canada is very closely concerned about this. And you know what I think is also an important development today is we have had public statements in support of Mr. Kovirg, in support of Mr. Spavor, from some of our closest allies -- from the EU, from the U.K., from the U.S.

CO: You have called these arrests arbitrary detentions -- are they political?

CF: Well we called them what we know them to be. We believe that it's important to get our facts straight. And so we wanted to hear from the Chinese authorities what the reasons for the detentions were.

CO: Do you think they are politically motivated?

CF: As I said I'm not going to speculate beyond that beyond saying that they are arbitrary and we think the two men should be released.

CO: But we've seen that the arrests are largely seen as tit-for-tat -- that they are in retaliation for Canada's arrest Meng Wanzhou -- why are you not drawing that connection that we're hearing from so many other sources?

CF: Well we have been in close touch with the Chinese authorities. That connection has not been drawn by them. We're going to stick with the facts that we know and I am always going to act, the Government of Canada, is always going to act in the way that we believe is best for them. We're standing up firmly and clearly for them. We are acting within the rule of law. All of our actions are very much based on fact. And again crucially for me the really salient point today is having our allies come out in support of the Canadian position.

CO: But that still contradicts what Mr. Trump, what Donald Trump, has suggested that he might trade the Chinese executives that Canada has detained -- and might trade her for a better trade deal with China. I mean do you have all these statements from different countries but he's the president of United States.

CF: That is a different case -- that's the detention of Ms. Meng. And we have been clear from the very outset that Canada absolutely does not believe that criminal justice matters, that extradition matters, should be politicized or used for some kind of a different political objective. And we expect our extradition partners not to politicize them. So Canada's very very clear about that.

CO: Just finally we spoke with former foreign minister John Manley just the other day and he said that Canada has never been more alone in the world than it is today. And I don't think it was a criticism. I think it is a comment on how you have conducted foreign policy and the positions you have taken that have isolated us. Do you feel isolated?

CF: Not at all. I mean let me first of all say I love John and I have enjoyed working with him closely. But I think actually the strong statements of support we've seen from our allies today specifically supporting Canada specifically speaking out in support of Mr. Kovrig and Mr. Spavor specifically supporting Canada's conduct as a rule of law a country that abides by treaty commitments -- that is not a country which is alone. This is a country which is strongly and publicly supported by the EU, strongly and publicly supported by the UK, strongly supported by the US. So I would actually say quite the opposite. I think that now is a moment when Canada is really assuming a real leadership position in the world as a country which is standing up for the rule of law. And let me tell you Carol you know I was in Europe two weeks ago and with the Prime Minister at the G20 the week before that there are a lot of countries in the world that understand that if we go back to a sort of 19th century concert of Europe kind of world where might is right that is not going to be good for them. It's not good for Canada and it's not good for any country in the world.

CO: I just want to ask you this very quickly finally is what are your greatest concerns for these Canadians who are detained in China right now?

CF: Well my greatest concern is I want them to be released and I want them to be able to come home. It's important also for us to continue to communicate with the government of China. We are doing that when you have a difficult situation it's important to keep talking. And what we are explaining to the Chinese government is what I've just been saying to you -- you know that Canada is a rule of law based country and that that is how we are behaving -- that when Chinese citizens are detained in Canada they are afforded due process and treated with respect and that we expect the same treatment to be given to Canadians.

CO: We will leave it there. Minister Freeland I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

CF: Okay thank you very much Carol.

CO: Bye bye.

CF: Bye.

JD: We reached Canada's Minister of Foreign Affairs Chrystia Freeland in Ottawa.

[Music]

Mattis resignation

Guest: David Graham

JD: He was described as an island of stability amidst the chaos of the Trump administration, and as the only grown up in the room. But yesterday General James Mattis announced his departure as U.S. Secretary of Defense by way of a pointed resignation letter. General Mattis spent two years navigating President Trump's more unpredictable positions -- often trying to moderate his boss's hard line tone. David Graham is a staff writer at The Atlantic. We reached him in South Hill, Virginia.

CO: David this is quite the revealing resignation letter from James Mattis, what does it reveal about his motivation for resigning?

DAVID GRAHAM: You know typically these letters will be full of flattery and some sort of line about 'it's time to move on,' but Mattis put out that he has disagreements with Trump on principle -- he criticized implicitly Trump's maybe coddling of authoritarians and said that the president deserved a secretary of defense who agreed with him on more issues.

CO: And he shows what he thinks is the issue which is the central issue which is that the whole thrust of Trump's direction on foreign policy is something that he doesn't agree with and also considers dangerous.

DG: That's right. He also mentioned Trump's sort of inattention to alliances and international organizations and that's something he's worked to maintain as secretary of defense despite Trump often working at cross purposes with him.

CO: What were the specific issues that drew him to resign right now? And what does it specifically -- obviously he's been fighting with a lot of issues over the past two years that he has been in the administration, why now?

DG: The real spark here seems to have been Trump's announcement that he would be pulling U.S. troops out of Syria basically immediately, and then an expected announcement that he might do the same in Afghanistan. Those are things that Mattis tried to prevent -- he went to the White House and tried to convince Trump not to do it, he did in fact apparently delay it but he couldn't stop it.

CO: They say that James Mattis -- he has lasted so many other people hasn't he? I mean: a Secretary of State, two national security advisers, two White House chiefs of staff, Secretaries of Health, Human Services, Interior, the Veterans Affairs, the CIA, Environmental Protection Agency, how has he had the staying power to get through two years?

DG: A couple of things. One is that he is widely respected by pretty much everybody in politics which makes him a little bit beyond reproach. And also he's avoided the kind of scandals that some of his colleagues have. The other thing is he just stay out of the way where other secretaries and officials have tangled with Trump, Mattis has tried to stay at the Pentagon and just keep out of the way and avoid conflict as much as he can -- and that seems to have served him well but not well enough to stay around.

CO: It's not much of a legacy is it?

DG: No. I mean everything he did was sort of defensive. He was attempting to keep guardrails on Trump which prevented him from really having any major accomplishments to point to outside of that.

CO: But what actually was he doing within the administration? What was his -- we know from reading Bob Woodward's book that there were key people who would sort of sneak memos off the desk, would try and slow things down that when Donald Trump would get an idea that they had to do all this maneuvering What role did he play among all that?

DG: Well there's a few things. One is Trump was very angry about Syria early on and wanted to launch a bomb strike that would kill Bashar al-Assad. That's something that Mattis put the brakes on. He also seemed to have tried to talk Trump out of some of his brasher decisions about withdrawing from defense agreements with South Korea for example. But a lot of his role has also been reaching out to allies who Trump has ruffled and trying to smooth things over and persuade them that you know the U.S. is not really changing course and isn't going to do anything abrupt. And I think the fact that he's been that person is one reason why many allies seem concerned about his departure.

CO: But he has been described often as being the grown up in the room. So what does his departure mean for the administration?

DG: It's hard to say who could constrain Trump now. Mattis has a kind of credibility that nobody left has. And he has a lot of experience, but some of the new remembers the administration don't. So it does seem like Trump is unchained and may be able to make decisions without the kind of consultation and guardrail that he's had so far.

CO: What does that mean for not just for the United States but for all of us?

DG: I think it's bad news for international alliances. You know Mattis has been the defender of those things. I also think it means the U.S. is just less predictable. Trump may make decisions and pick, carry, them through without a whole lot of warning to allies or to anybody in the U.S. or for that matter to the Generals which seems to be what happened in the Syria case. So it's just a less predictable and maybe scarier world.

CO: Less predictable is pretty frightening David. It's already pretty [chuckles] unpredictable, I mean my gosh! I mean how much worse can this get?

DG: We don't know. Trump has been constrained to a certain extent and it's still been a wild ride the last two years, so to imagine what an unconstrained Trump looks like it is fairly challenging I think.

CO: We heard President Trump in October on 60 Minutes -- he slammed Mattis by saying I think he's sort of a Democrat. He may leave anyway -- so the writing seemed to have been on the wall to some extent. What kind of relationship did the two men have?

DG: It was an unusual relationship. I think Trump imagined that he was getting somebody who was a kind of brash warrior type who spoke his mind -- because Mattis had this reputation for you know having some impressive sayings and being really a tough General. But Mattis was essentially kind of an intellectual -- an intellectual warrior and also somebody who was an internationalist, very concerned about alliances. So we saw really from the very beginning of administrations -- you'd see tension between them as Mattis tried to push back on some of the things Trump wanted to do. They just didn't really seem to see eye-to-eye on almost any issue.

CO: And that's what is reflected in this letter of resignation, isn't it? That he said, James Mattis says, you have a right to have a Secretary of Defense whose views are better aligned with yours. So who might that be? Where do you get that person?

DG: There a couple of names that are being bandied about. One idea is that he could move somebody from elsewhere in the administration such as national security adviser John Bolton who's fairly hawkish but Bolton disagreed with the Syria and Afghanistan pullouts as well. He might pull in somebody who's a current senator -- somebody like Lindsey Graham, one of his key allies. Or Tom Cotton who has been another ally. Or maybe a retired senator. But Trump's world view is so far apart from most of the people with experience in Washington -- either in politics or in the government, so it's hard to know who he might find to really be on the same page as him.

CO: All right we'll leave it there. David thank you.

DG: Thank you.

JD: David Graham is a staff writer for The Atlantic. We reached in South Hill, Virginia.

[Music]

Trump poo

Guest: Ivan Oransky

JD: A problematic image has been wiped from a scientific journal. A paper published in Scientific Reports last January featured a small illustration of baboon droppings. Then it was discovered that hidden in that illustration was an even smaller image of President Donald Trump's face imprinted in the poop. This week the journal removed the image and issued a correction. Ivan Oransky is the co-founder of Retraction Watch, a website that tracks changes in science literature. We reached him in Northampton, Massachusetts.

CO: Mr. Oransky does this correction bring us any closer to understanding how or why the U.S. president's face ended up in a cartoon of baboon poop?

IVAN ORANSKY: Unfortunately it does not because no one's really talking about what happened or didn't happen here.

CO: This publication, Scientific Reports, they are being rather hush-hush about how this happened and they've just quietly I guess corrected it and the image is no longer there. Why do you think that they're being so quiet about it?

IO: You know I hate to read people's minds of course but it's consistent with how journals tend to not like to talk about their dirty laundry. In the case of this particular dirty laundry so to speak, you're dealing with a person or president at the moment who obviously has a tendency to blow things out of proportion to jump up and down and tweet -- so frankly I can understand why they wouldn't make a huge deal of it, but if you're going to make a correction in scientific literature for whatever reason there should probably be some sort of explanation not just calling it unusual which is quite a euphemism.

CO: Have you ever had this correction -- what they are actually saying this is the quote "in the original version of this article there were unusual aspects to the extract fecal DNA illustration in figure 1. These features have been removed." How typical or untypical is that of corrections?

IO: Certainly we see corrections of images -- what you want and what you know many journals do, not all, is provide some sort of very specific explanation. Now how would you describe this if you were to write this correction? You know to get into it and it's a little bit like I guess the you know don't repeat the error when you make a correction which some newspapers, news outlets, subscribe to so you know perhaps that's what they're after. You know the authors have not said anything, at least not to us, about whether they even did this. I mean there's a tiny infinitesimal and frankly not realistic chance that this was an artifact. You know you develop a picture in the old days and realize there's a little bit of fuzz somewhere but it seems very unlikely that's the case here.

CO: Well the image that you have of the actual, the offending feces, is really large. I mean it's blown up enough that you can see clearly. In the actual article, it's teeny tiny -- it's so small. How did they even discover that the face of Donald Trump was in the poo?

IO: We don't know that either. And you know frankly it's kind of unrealistic to think that someone reviewing this, like a peer reviewer for example or an editor, before publishing -- pressing publish on this would have seen it. One can presume anyway that someone was tipped off because in order to actually get the image we posted on Retraction Watch -- you know I went through the steps that that person did, it required more effort than simply you know pressing enlarge on my you know Chrome browser. You know I suspect the authors put that in there is what someone described as an Easter egg. Others have done that before but usually in ways that where they want to be discovered. There's one famous case of someone who -- actually a number of cases of people who added their dogs or in one case a hamster to the author list, but it's easily discoverable if you actually look. This you wouldn't even know to look because it's not an obvious place. So I think, you know again without really anyone's minds and not having spoken to anyone about this because they won't call us back, you know one thinks they maybe planned to just have it be there forever as a private joke but then somehow it got out -- someone else knew about it.

CO: The image is very clear -- it's not as though it was an accident. It's not like when people say they imagine they can see the face of some deity in a farmer's field or a piece of toast. I mean this is deliberately stamped in there, right. So when you started to enlarge it what did you think when you actually were able to go through the processes to see what was there?

IO: Well I did smile -- you can't help but chuckle. I then got some reactions. I'm not sure what my opinion is to be honest but a number of them said 'yeah it was funny but it also -- it just feeds into this notion that you know scientists are liberals and they don't like Donald Trump and they don't like conservatives.' And we are at a particular time in our history and so you know the argument by other people was well you know it's funny but does it really accomplish anything and could it actually do more harm than good? There are ways to make jokes that you know people named species after people they want to make fun of but okay that's there -- that's somewhat juvenile too. But when it involves poop, hopefully that's an okay thing to say on CBC [chuckles], but you know when it involves poop it is literally bathroom humor.

CO: Just the word poop is often a word used on As It Happens -- we have an unusually high number of stories that deal with fecal matter [laughter]. Now there have been -- well Donald Trump has been just on a kind of tweet-bonanza today over so many different things. Do we expect that he might actually say something about this?

IO: I don't read anyone's mind and that goes doubly or quadruple the truth for our current president. So I just don't know and I don't know if anyone in the White House has seen it. It's something that happened -- I don't think that we should hide it. And let's see if there's any reaction. I may end up cringing more at the reaction from certain quarters than I do at the image itself of poop.

CO: I really appreciate talking to you Mr. Oransky. And we'll see where this goes.

IO: Sure thing Carol. My pleasure.

CO: Bye bye.

JD: Ivan Oransky is a journalist and co-founder of Retraction Watch. We reached him in Northampton, Massachusetts. If you would like to see the figure and it's quote "unusual aspects," visit our website cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Eddie the Otter

JD: Eddie the Otter is being honoured tonight as quote "one of the most loved sea otters in the world." But the long-time resident of the Oregon Zoo didn't build his reputation by pandering to the masses -- he did it by pandering to himself. Eddie rose to fame first a few years ago when he was 18, that's when videos began making the rounds showing the furry fella' slamming down two-pawed dunks in a poolside basketball net. This however was not a circus act. 18 is ancient for otters. Eddie's elbows were arthritic and so the zookeepers put together an otter exercise regime that included Eddie sinking ball after ball. This all happened away from the public. Yet when that video went viral, Eddie's display pool got more attention too. And that is when Eddie's reputation went from otter-athletic to auto-erotic. You see Eddie had a somewhat surprising ability to sell-fellate and perhaps less surprisingly seemed to exercise that ability whenever he could. In videos online you could hear zoogoers expressing their delight as they recognize the b-baller. And then there are gasps as they recognize what he is so happily doing as he floats about on his back. As the zoo put it quote "Eddie displayed so much confidence in front of guests." Sadly Eddie will no longer be displaying that confidence. The Oregon Zoo announced that on Thursday morning, at a ripe old otter age of almost 21, Eddie had to be euthanized.

[Music]

Part 2: Swedish town's arson-prone Christmas goat stands strong amid heightened security

B.C. referendum

Guest: Bruce Hallsor

JD: The people of British Columbia have voted against electoral reform again. Yesterday Elections B.C. announced the results of the province's mail-in referendum. More than 60 percent of voters chose to keep the current first-past-the-post system instead of adopting one of the three types of proportional representation on the ballot. This is the third time that British Columbians have voted on how they should vote. Bruce Hallsor who is a lawyer who campaigned for electoral reform in 2005 and 2009. He wanted to see a move toward proportional representation this time. We reach Bruce Hallsor in Victoria.

CO: Mr. Hallsor after three votes is it clear to you now that British Columbians do not want to change how they vote?

BRUCE HALLSOR: No it's not clear at all. You know there's various opinion polls that show that people want some kind of change to our electoral system. What is clear is that the government really put forward a proposal that British Columbians couldn't accept and I think it's fairly clear that having done so in a fairly ham fisted way they've ended those of us who want to see a change have any chance of that for probably a generation.

CO: What do you mean ham fisted way?

BH: Well this referendum was not what listeners in other parts of Canada might expect. Other places have had referendums and we've had them where there's a simple choice 'do you want to stick with the existing system or do you want to try a new system,' -- and the new system is provided in some detail and ideally it's a system that's supported by some kind of non-partisan group or a citizens group, not by the government. This referendum was about a choice of three different proportional representation systems. Two of which had never been used anywhere in the world before and were invented -- none of which were really defined. If you voted for any of these systems then a committee of the legislature would put the meat on the bone and actually make a bunch of important decisions about how the system worked and if you liked one of the three systems but didn't like the others it was very difficult to know how to vote. And I think this, and of course, this was a very partisan vote as well. There was a real partisan divide and I don't think any of that made it easy for this referendum to pass.

CO: Are you saying that it was set up to fail?

BH: There's a lot of conspiracy theories out there who believe that [inaudible] and the NDP didn't really want PR and I'm not saying that I believe them but the way the system is designed certainly makes those conspiracy theories more credible.

CO: We say PR that's short form for proportional representation. I guess the problem, the reason, why this is such an important discussion in Canada is that people have a problem that a political party can become the government without the support of the majority of voters, right? That's the sort of I guess the crux of it.

BH: That's the crux of it. I think most reasonable people don't like that aspect of our current system. I mean in B.C. the debate sort of got rolling because we had a party that got 42 percent of the vote and it lost the election to a party that got 39 percent of the vote. So you know the guys who lost had a majority government --that's what got things rolling here. And I think that criticism is still there. How you deal with it is tricky. And we had one referendum where 58 percent of people voted for change. Another one where 59 percent voted against change. And now we've had a third against change. But you know I think it's in fairness the choice can't be first-past-the-post or we don't know what but something -- people need to know what they're getting on these referendums.

CO: And do you think it also, the complexity that you've described and it is complex -- I have been reading it many times just to understand these three systems. But is it possible that that complexity reflects how complex it is -- that it's not just a simple thing of moving from one system to another and to get rid of the first-past-the-post system that there's a different political reality in rural and urban communities which is what's reflected in one of these rural urban proportional option. So isn't that possibly the problem is that it's really really hard to do this?

BH: Well it is hard but other jurisdictions have done it. There's a difference between people voting against change -- which they did vote against this particular change, and people endorsing the way things are. I don't view this as an endorsement of the way things are. All political parties in B.C. have talked about the problems with the current system and the way that we need to improve it.

CO: The Liberal leader Andrew Wilkinson has accused the NDP of having this vote to appease the Green Party because they're in a government together so it props up their government -- he's saying it's just political. Do you think that's true?

BH: Well the Liberal Party offered the Green Party the exact same thing when they were trying to get them to support the minority Liberal government so it's a little bit rich but probably true.

CO: And we heard -- just to take it federally, Justin Trudeau said in one of his campaign promises that the past federal election was the last that will be run under the first-past-the-post system that seems like not true now doesn't it? I mean there's no discussion of electoral reform -- it's just disappeared. So do you think that there is a possibility of an initiative coming from Ottawa?

BH: I think that Justin Trudeau is in pretty good company with a number of political leaders who have been very attracted to electoral reform when they were in opposition and somehow became converted to the current system when it elected them. So I was not particularly surprised that his backtrack -- although it may have been shocking to people who voted for him because of that reason. But I think there's some reason for people that want electoral reform in Canada to look forward to change. In Quebec the government was elected there the CAQ promised to bring in electoral reform -- all of the opposition parties also made the same promise -- so I think there's a commitment by the government to bring something in. So maybe Quebec will lead the way and do it right. And there's certainly that discussion in other provinces too.

CO: We will leave it there. Mr. Hallsor thank you.

BH: Okay thank you for your time.

JD: Bruce Hallsor is a lawyer and electoral reform campaigner. We reached him in Victoria, British Columbia.

[Music]

‘Ask Me Anything’

JD: One of the great things about the holidays is getting together with family and friends and just kind of catching up -- not just small talk but the conversations where you drop the mask and you get the scoop on what really happened over the year: the hardships, the wins, all the funny awkward moments. And that is the kind of conversation Carol and I had on stage at the Glenn Gould Studio in Toronto early on in December. Comedian and CBC host, Ali Hassan, asked questions sent in by you, As It Happens listeners. And we also took questions from the people in the studio. The show was called 'Ask Me Anything' and we promised we would answer honestly no matter what. Have a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

ALI HASSAN: I'm going to move on with another question -- it comes from Shannon Mokai in Vancouver and she's asking what was the story or interview that you found the funniest -- when irrepressible laughter came, saw, and conquered, your radio host composure. Jeff let’s start with you.

JD: Oh boy was it a story. There was one time, I can't remember exactly what the story was, but there was a string -- one of the things that I have to wrestle with every day is actually pronouncing people's names. That's it. Like it's just you know there is some things or Welsh towns. [Laughter] There's you know just -- and you know sometimes it just depends how things string together that you know sometimes if a name pops up -- one name here and a location maybe in a paragraph, a name and a location I can handle -- if you put a couple of names and a couple of different places, things can get a little squirrelly. And there was one point, I don't think I had been on the program very long, but things derailed pretty early on in the top of the show. And I think I had -- there was a list of like five or six major players in this event in a couple of different places and I missed the first one and it was just like wow!

CO: I think they were all Swedish weren't they?

JD: Yeah I can't remember. Swedish or Icelandic or something.

CO: You just sounded like something out of The Muppets. [Laughter]

JD: I sounded like [makes funny voice]. Like I was just [laughter] To my own head I could hear this happening and Carol was on the other side of the table -- the first time that I went [makes funny voice] she goes [makes laughter sound]. And she was laughing. She ran to the corner of the studio and was on the corner going -- breaking laughter.

CO: Which I thought would be helpful to him. [Laughter]

JD: No she's like yeah -- because she thought I don't want him to see me laughing, so she went and hid in the corner and cried and I still had two minutes of this stuff to get through.

CO: It was delightful. [Laughter]

JD: That for me it's funny in retrospect but in the moment it was horrible.

JD: Ah the good old days. That was recorded on stage at Glenn Gould Studio in Toronto earlier in December. You can hear the entire program over the holidays. It is called 'Ask Me Anything' and it airs on CBC Radio on Boxing Day at 6 a.m. Guess we will see you then. And again on New Year's Day at noon -- half an hour later in Newfoundland.

[Music]

Gavle goat

Guest: Maria Wallberg

JD: Every year As It Happens brings you the latest on a very unlucky giant straw goat in Sweden. It is called Gavle goat and it is erected in Gavle's town square each Christmas season. During its 52 years however the Gavle has only survived unscathed a dozen or so times. Every other year it has either been obliterated by fire, dismembered, or otherwise destroyed. We reached Gavle goat spokesperson Maria Wallberg in Gavle, Sweden.

CO: Maria how is the Gavle goat today -- it's still standing?

MARIA WALLBERG: Yeah he's still standing and he looks very good [chuckles] this year too.

CO: He's still -- usually about 12 or 13 metres high?

MW: Yeah it's about 13 metres or 42 feet -- a big piece of goat.

CO: And very tempting to burn of course.

MW: Yeah. He has a sad history. When he got 29 fire attacks and seven other attacks so it's only done a great year in 15 times that he's survived. Yeah we kept him standing over Christmas and New Year and we hope that we can do that this year too.

CO: Last year was, you say, that it was the 15th year out of the five decades of the Gavle goat -- it was the 15th time you actually managed to keep the goat for Christmas.

MW: Yeah that's true. So it's not a good [chuckles] but we hope we can do it better now.

CO: But you did have -- there was this little goat -- a smaller Gavle goat that did catch fire. Is that right?

MW: Yeah that's right. The last weekend but there were inhabitants that stopped the one who did this so it went well. So he is still standing too with a little bit of what they say -- little a bit of a fire on his tail.

CO: But now we always, every year, on this program -- people want us to cover the story of the Gavle goat and not just because -- well because it burns down so often, but because how creative people are in the way they go after the goat.

MW: Yeah that's amazing. And it's amazing that the Gavle goat has so many fans around the world. There are 120,000 people that watch this on live cam from over 120 countries and that's every year.

CO: Wow. So they're all watching because they think something might happen to it?

MW: I don't really know [chuckles] someone may do that but I think most people want him to stay so. And from the city of Gavle we need him to stay because people want to come here and visit him so it's very very important for the city that the Gavle goat survives.

CO: Some of the ways that people have tried to burn it down -- perhaps the most dramatic was some years ago when there was this army of Santas and Gingerbread men who had arrows and flaming arrows and they went after the goat really early on -- do you remember that?

MW: Yeah I remember that of course. And there has been [inaudible] attacks and planned kidnappings and he's got hit by a cruising car and there are many stories.

CO: What was the kidnapping?

MW: I don't really know what year that was but it was a plan to kidnap to take the parts of the goat so.

CO: I know once there was an attempt to steal the goat by helicopter, right?

MW: Yeah I think that's right too [laughs]. So been very very creative things to try to attack him.

CO: Can you tell us about the time when there was an American tourist who set it on fire?

MW: Yes. He was in Sweden visiting a friend that lived in Gavle and he thought that this was a tradition to burn down the goat -- a Swedish tradition -- but it isn't legal to do so he [inaudible] to the police and they arrest. So I think he had to pay a little bit but then it was over for him. So he could went back to the U.S.

CO: But the poor man -- he was told by people and it wasn't true, they told him that he should light the goat on fire because it was part of the tradition.

MW: Yeah that's what he said then.

CO: Who do you think the other people are? Because he actually thought that man said that he thought that there was some kind of a conspiracy, some secret group, that was trying to get at the goat. Who do you think it is that keeps going after this creature -- this straw creature?

MW: Many many times it has been the drunk people going out from parties and so on --- but I think last year we set a higher fences around the goat and doubles so I think it's very very hard to get in and get out from the Gavle goat so that it's very successful -- I think and hope that it will continue like that.

CO: But you also tried to, one year we talked to you, you tried to put fire retardant on it -- something to keep it from burning and they still managed to burn it down I think.

MW: Yeah. He's living a dangerous life but we really hope that we can keep him safe.

CO: Are you doing anything else to try and keep the goat safe this year besides the big fence?

MW: Yeah. It's the double fence and we have him guarded like 24/7 and that's with the security cams and the guards and they're sometimes also dog with guards there so we really tried to do this.

CO: All right we will be watching Maria [laughs] and I hope you get to have your goat on Christmas day. Thanks so much talking.

MW: [Laughs] We hope so. Thank you.

CO: Thank you. Bye.

JD: Maria Wallberg is the official Gavle goat spokesperson. We reached her in Gavle, Sweden. And for the latest on the poor old Gavle goat, head to our website cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Maple Valley?

JD: Oh congratulations Canada! You have been given a brand new city, and just before Christmas too. Actually to be more accurate, it's kind of more of a re-gift. The British news magazine, The Economist, has redubbed Toronto 'Maple Valley' in an article describing the exodus of international employees from the U.S. tech sector to Canada's. And with that jaunty made up name designed to position Toronto as a rival to Silicon Valley, the publication has drawn the ire of -- well you know actual Torontonians. @rock-golf tweeted "We're not even in a valley! If we were we'd be under Lake Ontario."

CO: Douglas Hunter shared this on Twitter: "It's called Tronna. There's no other recognized name."

JD: Bob and Jean Travel wrote: "What silliness, The Economist. Our city of Toronto has been known as Tkaronto (in Mohawk), The Big Smoke, Hogtown, Hollywood North, York from 1793, Toronto the good, YYZ, but never 'Maple Valley.'"

CO: And @radio_shorts on Twitter decided to be generous and offer up alternatives to the made up name. Here they are: "The murder capital of Canada. The house price bubble of Canada. Gridlock Gotham. And, Condo-urbia."

JD: Take note The Economist. And if you are a resident of Canada's real Maple Valley which is a small community in Ontario or even Maple Valley in Washington State, rest assured, Torontonians are not interested in stepping on your turf.

[Music]

Vern Unsworth

JD: It was one of the biggest stories of 2018: the nail-biting rescue of 12 school boys and their soccer coach from a cave in Chiang Rai, northern Thailand. Vern Unsworth, a British caver lived nearby and knew the cave system wherein the boys were trapped. Mr. Unsworth would become instrumental in getting them to safety. Now six months after the rescue Mr. Unsworth returned to the mouth of the cave where he spoke to the BBC's Jonathan Head about the boys and their coach.

SOUNDCLIP

VERN UNSWORTH: I think the experience will serve them good for the rest of their lives. You know they'll grow up appreciating what's around them and what people have done for them basically. But I said right at the beginning it wasn't their fault. Could have been me.

JONATHAN HEAD: And you've been in how many caves?

VU: Yeah exactly. They were just very unlucky on that day.

JH: And they're quite amazing to see today. I mean they're a tight knit group. They look cheerful. Full of life. I mean you'd hardly know they'd been through such an ordeal when you see them today.

VU: They all seem quite happy. And as you said a close knit -- which is why I think they did amazingly well to get through those first ten days because they were so strong. And I think that came from coach.

JH: Yeah. And you can see he's still with them and he's such an important part of their group isn't he?

VU: Yeah. A lot of people sort of put blame on him for taking them in originally -- I don't put any blame on him. You know? They had just gone in there for bit of an excursion and it has not gone the way they thought it would do. But he kept them together -- with no shadow of a doubt, he kept them together.

JH: What about you? You can't go anywhere at the moment without something wanting to take a photograph of you. You've become a celebrity.

VU: I think I should start charging, don't you? [Laughter] To be perfectly honest I prefer a quieter life -- I'm not the one for going out and seeking you know people treat me as a hero and I'm not a hero -- just in the right place at the right time really.

JD: That was British caver Vern Unsworth speaking to the BBC's Jonathan Head in Chiang Rai, Thailand.

[Music]

VOICE: From coast to coast on CBC Radio and around the world on shortwave this is As It Happens.

CO: Hello I'm Carol Off.

JD: And I'm Jeff Douglas.

CO: Celebrating 50 years...

JD: Of As It Happens.

[Music]

Part 3: 'No 2 turds are alike': Maine woman's moose poop crafts are flying off the shelf

Encore: moose poo

Guest: Mary Winchenbach

JD: "No two turds are alike." That is what Mary Winchenbach told us in an interview back in October and she had the experience to back it up. The Maine woman had quit her job at a seaweed processing plant to focus on her business selling crafts made with moose poop. As we revisit some of our most memorable interviews of 2018, this one was at the top of the list. Here is Mary Winchenbach's conversation with Carol. And a warning to some listeners, it is an interview about poop so the language might get dirty.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Mary, what are you doing with your moose poo today?

MARY WINCHENBACK: Well today, I'm assembling my turds because tonight, at 7:00 o'clock, I’ve got a stand-up comedy act. We've got wicked orders for the poo poo clocks, and so we've got people all over the place assembling turds for us, you know, and helping getting them ready. I'm talking to over 400 clocks.

CO: All right, so a lot of things I want to unpack here. What are poo poo clocks?

MW: Well, the poo poo clock, instead of a coo coo, it's a poo poo clock. And we put the turds in between the numbers. So it reads one-turdy, two-turdy, three-turdy. And we're working on incorporating a machine, so when it strikes that it goes [sound: a fart noise].

CO: All right, and that's a hot item right now? They’re just flying off the shelves?

MW: Absolutely, yeah.

CO: OK. What else have you got there?

MW: Well, we've got fecal people. And depending upon the shape of the middle turds right there, we can do them with big boobs, and guts, and butts, and long legs and short legs — because no two turds are alike. Yeah, we got that. And then another big item we have is the dingleberries. See we got dingleberries with bells, and we got them with balls. We got green balls, red balls and we got the blue balls. And those are good for putting on the Christmas tree because you can never have enough crap hanging off the tree. Or you put it on the rear-view mirror of vehicle, so you take a corner and you got that turd just a slinging all around the place. Not only is it a conversation piece, but I once got out of a fifty-dollar parking ticket with a five-dollar turd. I actually gave the cops some shit, and he let me go. And that's a true story.

CO: What did you give the cop?

MW: I give him a turd — a dingleberry with a blue ball. The cops love them blue balls.

CO: Okay, now where did you get the idea to turn poo into gold?

MW: Oh, I saw the turds one day you know walking in the woods. Of course, I've always seen them, but I get to thinking one day wouldn’t that be funny to add a set of eyeballs on it, you know? And you could call it like a little shithead thing. So we did that, and then the product line has just been expanding and expanding, and developing new products and stuff. And we'll sit around at night and drink a beer or something and start coming up with some stupid names for turds. And it's just funny, so we just keep going with it, you know?

CO: I understand you got your latest is forest dump?

MW: Yes, forest dump. And we're going to put a turd there with a shrimp — you know and a couple little fake trees.

CO: All right. And speaking of forests, this is where you collect your materials in the woods, right?

MW: Correct. We get them probably within a mile and a half two miles from the house. Usually, we'll get 100 to 150 pounds of turds every time we go out into the woods.

CO: How many moose do you have around your place?

MW: Well, I think there's about 12.

CO: And they're just producing like crazy for you.

MW: Well, they take a dump two or three times a day. And every time they take a crap, they’ll scrap out probably 300 to 400 turns every time. And you know we sell the turds for five dollars and up. So I guess like ching, ching. I get to jumping right up and down every time I find a pile of crap in the woods.

CO: Every time these geese these moose are out there, you're just looking at dollar signs?

MW: Absolutely. It's like we see the turds coming out of the butt, and it’s it's like five, 10, 15, 20, 25. Yeah.

CO: OK. Now, I need to scoop on moose poop here. I mean because I've seen moose poop in the woods, and it's like ploppy, soft, cow patty stuff, right? You’re not working with that are you?

MW: No, my turds look like little oval balls. We have dehydrators here at the house. So once we get that turd, we dry them all up wicked good. And then we put two different kinds of coatings on them because some people like a natural-looking turd, and some people like it when their turds glisten.

CO: And people put them on for jewelry? You said they're wearing them?

MW: Correct. Yeah, we have earrings. And we even we just get a request for some fecal people for a wedding cake topper. So we made them anatomically correct, you know? And we made the boy we used a deer turd for his dingdong, you know? And for the women's breasts and stuff like that, but we’re going to put a skirt on her and the boy will have a bow tie. And it’s going to hang over the wedding cake.

CO: Oh my gosh, this is too much! And you get these ideas just having a beer at night — you and your partner?

MW: Absolutely.

CO: Now you thought you would maybe get a few sales, but you've turned this in to a couple of full-time jobs now, right?

MW: Yeah, I mean it was just one craft fair that we did. I haven't done it for nine years because we adopted three kids and we've been busy with them. So we just did this one craft fair, and a couple people videotaped it and put it online or on YouTube or whatever. And it’s just gone nuts.

CO: How many orders are you getting?

MW: We have well over a thousand orders right now. I've been shipping out probably at least 200 packages every day, every other day. And we are still way behind. I mean right now I owe people that have ordered over 400 of the poo poo clocks. And so I have a woman right now that will have those completed hopefully by the end of this weekend, so we can ship those turds out on Monday.

CO: So instead of Santa’s Workshop, you have Santa’s Turdshop?

MW: Exactly, that's a good one.

CO: Now It’s yours. I'll give that one to you. But you're not going to run out of supply, right? Those moose are going to keep producing for you?

MW: Exactly. And another thing too is one day we went to the Gray Wild Animal Park here in Maine. The moose are in captivity, and course, are nervous. And all the turds come out looking like them chocolate kisses, so we call them pieces of feces. Instead of a popsicle, we get a popsicle, otherwise known as a high-fiber fudgesicle — that’s like crap. Oh, one of our newest products is we get these little wooden stools, and we put a turd on it so it’s a stool sample. Wouldn't that be good to take that to the doctor, right?

CO: Oh my gosh! Listen, so if people come up to you and they say cut the crap. What do you say?

MW: I don't know what to say?

CO: You should say never. You're never going to cut the crap. The crap is working for you.

MW: Everyone can relate to a turd because everybody does it, you know? And has had experiences you know with dingleberries or whatever. And so yeah, everyone can relate to it.

CO: Well Mary, congratulations with your business. And I’ll let you get back to your shop. Thanks for talking to us.

MW: Thank you. If you need anything, remember I ship shit everywhere. And my motto is everyone should give a shit for Christmas. Sorry.

CO: That’s okay. I love it. Take care, Mary. Bye.

JD: That was moose-poo-craft-maker Mary Winchenbach speaking with Carol back in October. We're looking back at some of our favourite news from this year. And we've got some photographs of Ms. Winchenbach's creation on our website cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Reading: Gift of the Magi

JD: 'Secret Santa' can be very stressful. You're secretly buying a gift for a dear friend with a budget of only ten dollars, how can you make it meaningful? Well if you ask the characters in tonight's holiday reading, they could probably relate. And then they would tell you just to pass on the presents altogether because as 'The Gift of the Magi' memorably shows, money cannot buy the greatest gift of all. First published in 1905 by O. Henry, here is former As It Happens host, Al Maitland -- "Fireside Al" reading “The Gift of the Magi.”

SOUNDCLIP

One dollar and eighty-seven cents. That was all. And sixty cents of it was in pennies. Pennies saved one and two at a time by bulldozing the grocer and the vegetable man and the butcher until one's cheeks burned with the silent imputation of parsimony that such close dealing implied. Three times Della counted it. One dollar and eighty-seven cents. And the next day would be Christmas.

There was clearly nothing to do but flop down on the shabby little couch and howl. So Della did it. Which instigates the moral reflection that life is made up of sobs, sniffles, and smiles, with sniffles predominating.

While the mistress of the home is gradually subsiding from the first stage to the second, take a look at the home. A furnished flat at eight dollars per week. It did not exactly beggar description, but it certainly had that word on the lookout for the mendicancy squad.

In the vestibule below was a letter-box into which no letter would go, and an electric button from which no mortal finger could coax a ring. Also appertaining thereunto was a card bearing the name "Mr. James Dillingham Young."

The "Dillingham" had been flung to the breeze during a former period of prosperity when its possessor was being paid $30 per week. Now, when the income was shrunk to $20, though, they were thinking seriously of contracting to a modest and unassuming D. But whenever Mr. James Dillingham Young came home and reached his flat above he was called "Jim" and greatly hugged by Mrs. James Dillingham Young, already introduced to you as Della. Which is all very good.

Della finished her cry and attended to her cheeks with the powder rag. She stood by the window and looked out dully at a gray cat walking a gray fence in a gray backyard. Tomorrow would be Christmas Day, and she had only $1.87 with which to buy Jim a present. She had been saving every penny she could for months, with this result. Twenty dollars a week doesn't go far. Expenses had been greater than she had calculated. They always are. Only $1.87 to buy a present for Jim. Her Jim. Many a happy hour she had spent planning for something nice for him. Something fine and rare and sterling– something just a little bit near to being worthy of the honor of being owned by Jim.

There was a pier-glass between the windows of the room. Perhaps you have seen a pier-glass in an $8 flat. A very thin and very agile person may, by observing his reflection in a rapid sequence of longitudinal strips, obtain a fairly accurate conception of his looks. Della, being slender, had mastered the art.

Suddenly she whirled from the window and stood before the glass. Her eyes were shining brilliantly, but her face had lost its color within twenty seconds. Rapidly she pulled down her hair and let it fall to its full length.

Now, there were two possessions of the James Dillingham Youngs in which they both took a mighty pride. One was Jim's gold watch that had been his father's and his grandfather's. The other was Della's hair. Had the queen of Sheba lived in the flat across the airshaft, Della would have let her hair hang out the window someday to dry just to depreciate Her Majesty's jewels and gifts. Had King Solomon been the janitor, with all his treasures piled up in the basement, Jim would have pulled out his watch every time he passed, just to see him pluck at his beard from envy.

So now Della's beautiful hair fell about her rippling and shining like a cascade of brown waters. It reached below her knee and made itself almost a garment for her. And then she did it up again nervously and quickly. Once she faltered for a minute and stood still while a tear or two splashed on the worn red carpet.

On went her old brown jacket; on went her old brown hat. With a whirl of skirts and with the brilliant sparkle still in her eyes, she fluttered out the door and down the stairs to the street. [lb[ Where she stopped the sign read: "Mme. Sofronie. Hair Goods of All Kinds." One flight up Della ran, and collected herself, panting. Madame, large, too white, chilly, hardly looked the "Sofronie."

"Will you buy my hair?" asked Della.

"I buy hair," said Madame. "Take yer hat off and let's have a sight at the looks of it."

Down rippled the brown cascade.

"Twenty dollars," said Madame, lifting the mass with a practised hand.

"Give it to me quick," said Della.

Oh, and the next two hours tripped by on rosy wings. Forget the hashed metaphor. She was ransacking the stores for Jim's present.

She found it at last. It surely had been made for Jim and no one else. There was no other like it in any of the stores, and she had turned all of them inside out. It was a platinum fob chain simple and chaste in design, properly proclaiming its value by substance alone and not by meretricious ornamentation– as all good things should do. It was even worthy of The Watch. As soon as she saw it she knew that it must be Jim's. It was like him. Quietness and value– the description applied to both. Twenty-one dollars they took from her for it, and she hurried home with the 87 cents. With that chain on his watch Jim might be properly anxious about the time in any company. Grand as the watch was, he sometimes looked at it on the sly on account of the old leather strap that he used in place of a chain.

When Della reached home her intoxication gave way a little to prudence and reason. She got out her curling irons and lighted the gas and went to work repairing the ravages made by generosity added to love. Which is always a tremendous task, dear friends– a mammoth task.

Within forty minutes her head was covered with tiny, close-lying curls that made her look wonderfully like a truant schoolboy. She looked at her reflection in the mirror long, carefully, and critically.

"If Jim doesn't kill me," she said to herself, "before he takes a second look at me, he'll say I look like a Coney Island chorus girl. But what could I do– oh! what could I do with a dollar and eighty- seven cents?"

At 7 o'clock the coffee was made and the frying-pan was on the back of the stove hot and ready to cook the chops.

Jim was never late. Della doubled the fob chain in her hand and sat on the corner of the table near the door that he always entered. Then she heard his step on the stair away down on the first flight, and she turned white for just a moment. She had a habit for saying little silent prayer about the simplest everyday things, and now she whispered: "Please God, make him think I am still pretty."

The door opened and Jim stepped in and closed it. He looked thin and very serious. Poor fellow, he was only twenty-two– and to be burdened with a family! He needed a new overcoat and he was without gloves.

Jim stopped inside the door, as immovable as a setter at the scent of quail. His eyes were fixed upon Della, and there was an expression in them that she could not read, and it terrified her. It was not anger, nor surprise, nor disapproval, nor horror, nor any of the sentiments that she had been prepared for. He simply stared at her fixedly with that peculiar expression on his face.

Della wriggled off the table and went for him.

"Jim, darling," she cried, "don't look at me that way. I had my hair cut off and sold because I couldn't have lived through Christmas without giving you a present. It'll grow out again– you won't mind, will you? I just had to do it. My hair grows awfully fast. Say `Merry Christmas!' Jim, and let's be happy. You don't know what a nice – what a beautiful, nice gift I've got for you."

"You've cut off your hair?" asked Jim, laboriously, as if he had not arrived at that patent fact yet even after the hardest mental labor.

"Cut it off and sold it," said Della. "Don't you like me just as well, anyhow? I'm me without my hair, ain't I?"

Jim looked about the room curiously.

"You say your hair is gone?" he said, with an air almost of idiocy.

"You needn't look for it," said Della. "It's sold, I tell you– sold and gone, too. It's Christmas Eve, boy. Be good to me, for it went for you. Maybe the hairs of my head were numbered," she went on with sudden serious sweetness, "but nobody could ever count my love for you. Shall I put the chops on, Jim?"

Out of his trance Jim seemed quickly to wake. He enfolded his Della. For ten seconds let us regard with discreet scrutiny some inconsequential object in the other direction. Eight dollars a week or a million a year – what is the difference? A mathematician or a wit would give you the wrong answer. The magi brought valuable gifts, but that was not among them. This dark assertion will be illuminated later on.

Jim drew a package from his overcoat pocket and threw it upon the table.

"Don't make any mistake, Dell," he said, "about me. I don't think there's anything in the way of a haircut or a shave or a shampoo that could make me like my girl any less. But if you'll unwrap that package you may see why you had me going a while at first."

White fingers and nimble tore at the string and paper. And then an ecstatic scream of joy; and then, alas! A quick feminine change to hysterical tears and wails, necessitating the immediate employment of all the comforting powers of the lord of the flat.

For there lay The Combs– the set of combs, side and back, that Della had worshipped long in a Broadway window. Beautiful combs, pure tortoise shell, with jewelled rims– just the shade to wear in the beautiful vanished hair. They were expensive combs, she knew, and her heart had simply craved and yearned over them without the least hope of possession. And now, they were hers, but the tresses that should have adorned the coveted adornments were gone.

But she hugged them to her bosom, and at length she was able to look up with dim eyes and a smile and say: "My hair grows so fast, Jim!"

And them Della leaped up like a little singed cat and cried, "Oh, oh!"

Jim had not yet seen his beautiful present. She held it out to him eagerly upon her open palm. The dull precious metal seemed to flash with a reflection of her bright and ardent spirit.

"Isn't it a dandy, Jim? I hunted all over town to find it. You'll have to look at the time a hundred times a day now. Give me your watch. I want to see how it looks on it."

Instead of obeying, Jim tumbled down on the couch and put his hands under the back of his head and smiled.

"Dell," said he, "let's put our Christmas presents away and keep 'em a while. They're too nice to use just at present. I sold the watch to get the money to buy your combs. And now suppose you put the chops on."

The magi, as you know, were wise men– wonderfully wise men– who brought gifts to the Babe in the manger. They invented the art of giving Christmas presents. Being wise, their gifts were no doubt wise ones, possibly bearing the privilege of exchange in case of duplication. And here I have lamely related to you the uneventful chronicle of two foolish children in a flat who most unwisely sacrificed for each other the greatest treasures of their house. But in a last word to the wise of these days let it be said that of all who give gifts these two were the wisest. O all who give and receive gifts, such as they are wisest. Everywhere they are wisest. They are the magi.

JD: The late Alan Maitland reading O. Henry's "The Gift of the Magi."

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December 21, 2018 Episode Transcript

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