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The Current Transcript for December 14, 2018

Host: Laura Lynch

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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We were the last generation to be able to act, to be able to prevent the worst impacts. Canadians know this.

LAURA LYNCH: That's Catherine McKenna, Canada's minister of the environment climate change speaking at the all important COP24 climate meeting in Poland. There is a generational urgency to act to halt the eating of the earth. Scientists have given our species 11 years at the most to affect real change. Today it was supposed to be the last day for talks in Poland but they've just been extended and leader of the Green Party, Elizabeth May joins me from the summit first up. Then, she's the principal with the Boston Symphony Orchestra.

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And actually as a soloist in front of the orchestra with this [unintelligible] concerto, it's a solo role at first but it is a piece of a larger picture.

LL: Elizabeth Rowe speaking ahead of a big performance a few years back. But when it comes to her salary the balance of the orchestra seems to be off key. She's suing her orchestra for being paid tens of thousands of dollars less than a comparable male musician, and her case has us looking into the wider discordant world of gender and classical music. Then, the music of a different kind.

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[Sound: Ravens' caws]

LL: This is a some majestic call of the Raven but it's not just any Raven. It's one of the six that must remain in residence at the Tower of London, lest the kingdom be imperiled. In an hour, my conversation with the man in charge of keeping them happy in their historic home. We will talk to The Raven Master of London. I'm Laura Lynch. This is the Friday edition of The Current.

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Do we want to survive or not?': Elizabeth May says climate change talks too focused on bureaucracy

Guest: Elizabeth May

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To waste this opportunity in Katowice would compromise our last best chance to stop runaway climate change. It would not only be immoral, it will be suicidal. Failing here in Katowice would send a disastrous message to those who stand ready to shift to a green economy. So I urge you to find common ground that will allow us to show world that we are listening, that we care.

LL: An impassioned plea from the U.N. secretary general Antonio Guterres ahead of today. This was supposed to be the final day of the COP24 hour meetings in Katowice, Poland. World leaders, scientists, activists and more are there to hammer out a deal. The goal is a rule book of sorts with concrete plans to achieve the targets set out in the 2015 Paris agreement. A plan to limit the global average temperature rise to well under two degrees Celsius. And scientists say we have eleven years to drastically cut emissions to do that and to avert climate crisis. But there is still no deal. The leader of the federal Green Party Elizabeth May joins me now for more. Hello.

ELIZABETH MAY: Good morning Laura.

LAURA LYNCH: Where do things stand?

LL: Well the text was being negotiated last night till 3:00 in the morning, the next text iteration. This is a process that anyone who has ever attended a United Nations climate negotiation is really familiar with the process. But at this point it's quite predictable that the range of results here are going to leave people who want it to be a climate negotiation respond appropriately to the IPCC report one point five degrees. It's going to leave us disappointed. Those countries that claim to be -quote - "have high ambitions" are pledging to bring back a new approach, new target but not till 2020 which, personally, I find appalling but that's where the U.N. system is at the moment that [unintelligible] position. And we have I think largely overcome the objections that were really quite absurd to accepting the IPCC report.

LL: Tell me how those objections have been overcome. So it was the United States and several other countries that would not endorse this report that called for a much bigger cut in emissions.

ELIZABETH MAY: Well the reason that it was absurd is that the United States, Russia, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia are all governments that have representatives on the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. The IPCC 125 report already had this line up of all those governments. It was watered down somewhat to accommodate United States and Saudi Arabia. And so it was just a matter of finding a landing place in language where the report is of course accepted, the report is welcome, that kind of language has been somewhat modified. It remains to be seen if the U.S. refuses to sign on. But they've already, essentially the report of the IPCC 125 special report was prepared for this negotiation at the request of the COP - back in Paris in 2015 - to form us for what was this 2018 session of the conference were specifically to be called in this language- believe it or not that acronym has become GST the First Global Stock take. Where are we? Are we close to where we need to be? The answers are, no. We're not close to where we need to be. Action is urgently needed and that gets kicked down the road.

LL: Tell me what role Canada's played in these talks?

ELIZABETH MAY: Well Canada's focused very very specifically, and certainly Catherine McKenna was clear about this before she came, that Canada is the product of this COP at indispensably creating the Paris rulebook on how countries will report their emissions, what transparency there is around verification of a whole range of questions, financing, adaptation measures, how you measure emissions. And Canada did not say - and I pushed as hard as I could before we got here. But Canada not only did not say that COP, as a COP to say, 'Oh my God. We have almost no time left to hold the one point five degrees. One point five degrees is a more dangerous place than we thought it was, it lead to a more dangerously warmed globe than we thought it would'. But it still is the best ways we can we can get to with what we know. We'd better move away from the target. We still have, which is embarrassing with the one put in place by Stephen Harper which was never even prepared with an eye to the Paris negotiations--

LL: But Catherine McKenna has said at this meeting that she will make deeper emission cuts targets apart of Canada's climate plan. Have you heard any more detail on that?

ELIZABETH MAY: Well the pledges that by 2020 Canada will come up with a better set of targets and a more comprehensive plan to hold the 1.5. Now the climate negotiations always take place in November, December of every year. So a pledge for 2020 is really 2021 and at this point every, well, as the secretary general of the united nations said at this conference, that every year matter. I'd say every month matters. We just had a very moving demonstration by Polish children, schoolchildren, who have joined the school strike movement, singing, All I Want to Say is That They all Really Care About Us. And I think it's hard to say that you're paying attention to the IPCC .5 report if you think you can wait two years to set in place targets that are meaningful. I really look to Canada for leadership on these things because we deal with other countries. And in this negotiation, the traditional leadership and the European Union wasn't really their; traditional leadership from Germany. I mean, they're taking strong positions but that the mushy middle has dampened any leadership.

LL: I just want to ask you though there was a comment last night from the former president of the Maldives who said he thinks these meetings, these summits, 24 of them, are becoming useless because they don't seem to be able to achieve any meaningful change in climate change. What do you say to that?

ELIZABETH MAY: Well the multilateral process is all we've got. We have to make it work. This negotiation was focused on technical issues and diplomatic and bureaucratic issues, instead of the fundamental question; do we want to survive or not? In response I would also have it on our agenda this September 2019, UN Secretary general hint that there will be a summit of heads of government associate with the U.N. General Assembly meeting. So we can't afford to wait till 2020. We going to have to work like with every fiber of our being to move countries and to move our own governments to taking a position that's consistent with survival in time for the next leadership summit. I wish he'd been here but it wasn't the COP24.

LL: So what do you think is the optimal situation that Canada and the world can come away with from this summit?

ELIZABETH MAY: Well you know as I said the negotiations may well-- they are continuing now. They're unlikely to conclude for, well, another 24 hours anyway. But it will be around a very specific now technical band of issues around what do we put in the Paris rulebook. How do we govern the process of Paris going forward, as opposed to can we meet the Paris target, which is obviously the most fundamental question. And the Paris target is 1.5 Degrees Celsius and it was achieved largely because Catherine McKenna was the first minister from an industrialized country to say this treaty should say our goal is 1.5, but we are falling short by miles from having an adequate target or an adequate set of programs to meet that target.

LL: Ms. May Thank you for your time.

ELIZABETH MAY: Thank you, Laura.

LL: The leader of the Green Party Elizabeth May join me from the summit in Katowice. We were scheduled to speak to the environment minister Catherine McKenna this morning from the summit, but she is ill today. We have instead reached her parliamentary secretary Sean Fraser in Ottawa.

SEAN FRASER: Hello. Hi how are you doing?

LL: Fine thank you. You heard Elizabeth May there talking about what has and hasn't been achieved at this summit so far, and also criticizing Canada for not moving quickly or aggressively enough to set new emissions targets. What do you say to that?

SEAN FRASER: Certainly. We, upon achieving Paris agreements, were part of the global community and then helped lead the global community to commit to 1.5 degree. We're always looking to increase our ambition but we are committed to meeting our target by 2030, and we have a plan to get there. We're going to continue---

LL: What is the target, though? Has the target been cut? Is the target stiffer now?

SEAN FRASER: We set a goal for emissions reduction to reach 1.5 degrees. We put a plan in place to get to that level. In the meantime, we're going to continue to monitor progress to see whether we can further increase our ambition, and our work with the global community to ensure that we can protect the future so our kids and grandkids have the opportunity to enjoy the planet the same way that you and I do.

LL: Help me understand this. The UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change said emissions need to be cut in half by 2030. Canada's currently only committed to cutting emissions by 27 percent. Can you do that math for me?

SEAN FRASER: Yes. So actually we set a plan to reduce by 30 percent of our 2005 levels and are currently minoring to see where we can further increase that ambition. Just to give an idea of some of the things that we're putting in place to help us actually get there, because I think targets are incredibly important. But it's also important that we actually implement measures that help us get there. Of course you probably think quite a bit in the news over putting a price on pollution so that it's no longer free to put emissions into the atmosphere. We've put significant investment into our public transit. We're phasing out coal and by 2030 expect to have 90 percent of electricity generated in Canada from renewable resources. These are meaningful steps that are going to get us there. And to the extent we need to continually look where we can improve and get better and be more ambitious. We're open to that conversation.

LL: But that's still at 50 percent.

SEAN FRASER: Certainly. And we're going to be working with the world community to ensure that we can get to a place that puts a plan in action, that's based on the science that was included in the IPCC report. We're not afraid to discuss what the scientists are telling us. We rely on them for their expertise to get us to a place where we can actually put policy in place that's going to help us survive.

LL: You talked about some of the measures Canada is taking, but also we have to acknowledge that your government purchased the Trans Mountain pipeline and is committed to expanding the pipelines capacity. How can Canada be a leader if Canada is expanding output from the oil sands?

SEAN FRASER: I think this is a very important question. We need to ensure that as we develop our resources, we're doing it in a way that allows it to be part of a country wide plan to get our emissions on track. So if we're looking into just a single project, is not necessarily the best way to look at whether a global plan has an opportunity to succeed. So when I look at the trans mountain expansion, I do think we need to be looking at ways to get resources to markets. Of course the price differential that we've seen on Alberta's oil is it's really caused some severe pain on western Canada, but if we want to get our resources to new markets we have to ensure that as part of a plan that's going to reduce our emissions across the country. And we need to ensure that were mitigating the risks that exist when you expand oil and gas infrastructure. That's why we've put in place an oceans protection plans, to protect against the risk of spills. That's why we've been working to set a target as part of the international community.

LL: But I think I call that some may ask is, for all the money that was spent buying a pipeline, why wasn't that money invested in green energy?

SEAN FRASER: Well I think we are certainly making enormous investments in green energy and in particular the two billion dollar low carbon economy fund. But the trans mountain purchase is not money gone. We now have an asset that's worth the price we paid for it and hope to get that back in the hands of the private sector. So it's not as though this money could have been spent elsewhere and was instead spent on this asset, instead that money is still property the government owns. In the meantime, we are spending more than any government in my lifetime on a transition towards a clean economy. So don't compare apples and oranges, so to speak.

LL: Mr. Fraser and yesterday's show we heard from children across the country who wanted to send a message to the leaders were meeting in Poland, and I want you to listen to some of what they said.

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CHILD 1: It's coming so quickly and we need to start treating it as a process instead of a problem because it is a human crisis, it affects all of us. If we don't do anything we're going a spiral of just bad things, heat. I'll just be in university by then, I wouldn't even have started my adult life.

CHILD 2: They'll be gone before the real effects of what they've done is happening.

CHILD 3: They should still have the feeling that they can still make a difference if they choose to, and that they have a second chance.

LL: Mr. Fraser, what message do you have for those kids?

SEAN FRASER: They're right. We need to listen to them. Young people are helping drive the national climate agenda and helping inspire folks like me here in Canada. You know I was somebody who first got involved with the initiative to help improve our environment when I was seven years old at my elementary school. And I've cared about it ever since. The fact that we were not in a healthy place when it came to our plans to do something about climate change, was a big reason I put my name on the ballot in the first place. We need to be listening to voices like the ones we just heard so we can take the problem posed by climate change seriously. It's not just the right thing to do. It's the smart thing to do. If we make the investments to transition to green economy, we're going to be on the front of a wave that's going to put people to work in Canada and we can be climate leaders at the same time.

LL: But scientists are saying we have 11 years to change course to avert planet catastrophe. Given what's been discussed in Poland how are you feeling about the prospects of reaching that goal?

SEAN FRASER: You know I am an optimist, but I'm an optimist not without reason. We legitimately from day after we form government work you put in place a plan to actually take meaningful action on climate change. I mean we've discussed the Paris agreement already and some of the other measures, like putting a price on pollution, investing in transit, and phasing our coal 30 years ahead of schedule. But the fact is there's over 50 measures in place, going to energy efficiency. We've reduce regulations. So we'll have a 45 percent reduction. There is actually action happening today. We all want every year to go faster and to be better. But the real is my optimism is based on the record that I've seen put in place over the past few years. So I think we can there and I am not let anyone tell me until I enjoyed that we can't get there. I'm very pleased to be part of a team that moving in the right direction.

LL: Mr. Fraser, we will leave it there. Thank you.

SEAN FRASER: A pleasure always. Thank you.

LL: Sean Fraser is the Parliamentary Secretary to environment minister Catherine McKenna. He was speaking with me from Ottawa. Well keeping with the topic of climate change we were nearly snowed in by the avalanche of responses from you after yesterday's special edition of The Current, 11 Years, A Blueprint for Climate Action. Throughout the program we did hear from kids who had a lot of ideas about the way forward. This is Annaliese from Halifax with some advice for her friend Maria.

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ANNALIESE: You don't have to have a big fancy rich life. Like my friend Maria, is hoping to have a big three story building, that is clear except for the bathroom. And she wants to have a plane of her own. You don't have to have a life like that. I want a life by the pond in a cottage, one level cottage that is simple. Why do you have to live in a gigantic three story building all to yourself.

LL: That prompted Anne Simmonds of Toronto to write us this, “I really appreciated the reasons to have hope on the climate. Listening to the children and their concerns was important and powerful. Most importantly a challenge to all of us, both individually and collectively, to get on board with everything we can do to turn this around - for them and generations to come”. Many of you also weighed in with some of your own solutions. Beth Bradley of Nanaimo shared what she's been doing, “For about 30 years I have been making an environmental New Year's resolution. I integrate one behaviour into my life each year. I started with composting and using cloth grocery bags. In the last couple years I have eliminated beef and pork from my diet, increased my use of public transportation and am driving less. This year my resolution will be to eliminate plastic use as much as I can. None of these are huge, but I feel I can do something without feeling overwhelmed." Greg Stanners of Picton, Ontario said he wasn't hearing enough about what he sees as an unexplored solution, “What I don't understand is why there's never any talk of having more people work from home more often. These days we already have advanced communications technology that allows this. Of course there are a number of jobs that can't be done from home but there are very many that can and are not. We could greatly reduce greenhouse gas emissions from cars, easily and immediately, by making use of our communications technology.” Karin Germann of Gatineau weighed in with this suggestion for change, “Outlaw drive throughs. The amount of exhaust pumped into the atmosphere by people who find it inconvenient to get out of their cars for a cup of coffee or a burger is incredibly wasteful. School bus drivers are often required to start up their buses more than an hour before their routes start and leave them running. Bus and truck drivers leave their vehicles to idle because it is ‘better for their engines’. What about automatic car starters? Again, people are killing the environment for the sake of convenience.” And Leona Mattice of Elliot Lake, Ontario, said she was surprised at the focus on how to deliver the message, rather than the message itself, “Any activist knows that there are multiple ways and means to reach the widest possible audience. No one method is better than another. If the argument continues to be about how we do it, we'll end up doing nothing and our home will die. Small steps add up to big changes. I want to know that my power-wise bulbs and appliances are helping. I need to know what alternative forms of power really are. I think that we all need to be treated like we are already part of the solution and not simply the less intelligent group needing to be schooled by our betters." That is some of the mail we received on yesterday’s special edition, as I said, an avalanche of mail. If you missed our special programme, 11 Years: A Blueprint For Climate Action, you can find it on our website, cbc.ca/thecurrent, or download The Current podcast. The CBC News is next. Then, after a female flutist in an American orchestra launched a lawsuit against her employer for paying her way less than a male counterpart. We're exploring the world of music, and gender, right after the news. I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to the Friday Edition of The Current.

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How a lawsuit over gender-equal pay could change the classical music industry

Guests: Geoff Edgers, Katherine Carleton, Sommer Forrester

LL: Hello I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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LL: Legend has it that there must always be six Ravens at the Tower of London or a great harm will befall the United Kingdom. Coming up in half an hour from now we'll hear from the man responsible for keeping those Ravens at the tower and keeping the kingdom together. That would be the Raven Master Christopher Skaife. But first the first flute play second fiddle.

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[Music]

LL: That lovely music comes from the Boston Symphony Orchestra. It's a performance of Mozart's Double Concerto for Flute and Harp. But behind the harmony there is ‘dischord’. Theres an ongoing dispute between the principal flutist and the symphonies administration. Earlier this year Elizabeth Rowe sued the orchestra over her pay because it turns out her salary is tens of thousands of dollars less than one of her male colleagues. Ms. Rowe and the orchestra are currently in mediation, but the lawsuit has amplified an issue in the classical music world world and that is normally kept quiet. Geoff Edgers is a reporter with The Washington Post. He's been covering this story and recently spoke with Elizabeth Rowe and he joins me now from Boston. Hello.

GEOFF EDGERS: Hi there. How are you doing?

LL: Fine. Tell me what is Elizabeth Rowe alleging in her last suit?

GEOFF EDGERS: Well it's pretty basic. I mean she believes that she is paid less than she should be paid and that is based on the fact that she is a woman. So she has filed a lawsuit based on gender discrimination. That's what she's alleging here.

LL: Who is she comparing herself to when she makes that claim?

GEOFF EDGERS: Well she's looking specifically to her left John Ferillo who is the principal oboist and somebody that she's a good friend with and has played with since she joined the orchestra in 2004. John Ferillo, when she filed the lawsuit in July, earned 70,000 dollars more than she does because of a small raise that she got which, to be associate, is not connected to her lawsuit. That gap is now about 64,000 dollars.

LL: That is still a significant gap. how does the Boston Symphony Orchestra respond?

GEOFF EDGERS: Well as someone who can play a little bit of piano and serviceable guitar, playing any instrument in orchestras seems like a mystery to me. So I am not sure if this scientific but the way the Boston Symphony Orchestra explains it they believe, one, that the oboe is a more difficult instrument to play than the flute, and also that the oboe is considered sort of the leader of the orchestra after the concert master. So they basically say that they're not comparable instruments.

LL: What does the oboist, John Ferillo, what is he saying about all of this?

GEOFF EDGERS: Well he is very interesting to go. He is actually filed a statement in support of her as a person and a player as part of the lawsuit. But he also is very specific about his language. So he calls her a quote "equal partner" and says that she is quote "every bit my match in skills if not more so". But you know I talked to John Ferillo and he's also very specific about not telling his management. He doesn't believe it's his role to tell them how much they should pay anyone.

LL: But what about this claim though that the oboe is a harder instrument to play and the fact?

GEOFF EDGERS: He actually took issue with that and he said that you really couldn't settle who was more important and what is more difficult. But you know the way he described it was every instrument has its own private hell. I like that one.

LL: I thought he'd enjoy his job more than that. Tell me, though, how in their respective roles in the orchestra compare, then?

GEOFF EDGERS: Well what she has filed in this lawsuit is she's making the point that she is featured as a solo soloist more than any other principal player in that orchestra over the time she's been in there. She's been featured 28 times; Ferillo has been featured 21 times. And you know there's this term that it's like music geek talk but this term 'floboe', you know the flute and the oboe. It would be easier to tell you pieces of music that they're not, like, sort of deeply intertwined in, than pieces that they are because it's endless. So that's sort of how she's viewing her situation. And also she views herself as somebody who is on [unintelligible] literature, sent out to fundraisers. You know she's in a central role as a sort of spokesman and a face of the orchestra that she feels also puts her in that position. The principal flutist in the Boston Symphony Orchestra is a rarefied position.

LL: So she's reached the pinnacle. She's obviously a woman of great accomplishment. What strikes you about her as a person and as a musician?

GEOFF EDGERS: It is interesting to me. I mean we live in a world of people being quite loud about everything. I mean she is the most reluctant agitator I've ever come across. She filed this lawsuit in July, wouldn't speak to anyone. When I finally after weeks of urging her to talk to the Washington Post and she agreed to, you know she said that she was hoping that no one would notice her filing the lawsuit, except for the Boston Symphony Orchestra. Unfortunately a reporter from a paper in Boston, the Boston Herald, found that case and reported on it. So she didn't want to go public. I mean she's been complaining about this since 2004 and it's only now that she's speaking out.

LL: Well what tipped the balance? What made her take this step?

GEOFF EDGERS: I think there were two things. One is I think that she kept asking for this raise very specifically and it wasn't that they gave her the explanation that you're not comparable. What I think hurt her most was that they just didn't give her an explanation. And in many cases they just, she says, ignored her presentation or request and that was very devastating to her. Two, there is an equal employment law that went into effect in Massachusetts which is very strong and basically that equal opportunity law states that-- a number of things that basically you can pay people based on their gender. Also you get asked people their salaries in previous jobs to set their salaries in current jobs. So it I think she feels like she now has a chance to really test this equal employment law in Massachusetts.

LL: Beyond Massachusetts, do you have a sense of whether she realizes that she may be leading the way for other female musicians?

GEOFF EDGERS: I think she's getting that sense. When we when I say reluctant agitator, she's not a public person, she's not on Facebook, she's not on Twitter. She doesn't have a website even. So it wasn't until she filed this lawsuit she started getting emails from other orchestra players in the country, some of them who couldn't go public they felt like it was not something they could talk about. We took it upon ourselves to say hey is this an isolated situation. How does this play in the orchestra world? I spent a lot of time weeks analyzing data and collecting data to see what the bigger picture was. And any way you look it, when you look at individual situations, you know, Elizabeth Rowe, John Ferillo, you can come up with all sorts explanations for anything. But when you step back and look at the orchestra world, you see that clearly while women make up about 40 percent of orchestras, of the top 78 paid players that were able to chart only 14 of them are women. It's a pretty huge gap.

LL: It is realy huge. Did you find any examples when you were looking at any examples in Canada?

GEOFF EDGERS: I didn't, thought, I got anecdotal examples. Your system I think is different than the system here. But I talked to Jeanne Baxtresser who was the - for years - principal flutist in the New York Philharmonic, real star, but she started in Canada. And she told me that the only reason she was able to set a reasonable base salary for herself is because she once opened her paycheck and the principal bassoonist to later would be your husband saw it and said, "Oh my gosh Jeannie. You're paid very little. You better go to management and tell it you know how much I earn", and they had no choice at that point. But you know otherwise I have no reason to believe that it's any different in the Canadian system than it is in the system in the States or in any profession. Any profession you look at, women just are simply paid less than men.

LL: How surprising was all of this to you, when you when you started digging into it and talking to the female musicians?

GEOFF EDGERS: Well what's surprising about it to me is that I just don't think about it. You know when you go to Symphony Hall you kind of sink into your seat there and you're listening to a piece of music. And in many ways also you don't you know think of the individuals in the orchestra. It's a very you know sort of selfless role. It's like Yo-Yo Ma you know these people, who are the best, become part of a larger group. I guess you kind of escape. You want to think that this is not just like everything else. So I was surprised.

LL: Well, now that you've publicized it all, do you have a sense of what the broader implications of the case might be?

GEOFF EDGERS: I mean, everybody's going be watching to see what happens with Elizabeth Rowe. You know, she's going to go into mediation and either that will be settled there or it's going to go to court. And so I think that they're watching eagerly to see what happens with her case because it could reshape how salaries are set amongst these stars.

LL: So interesting Geoff Edgers thank you very much.

GEOFF EDGERS: Thanks for having me, appreciate it.

LL: Geoff Edgers is a reporter with The Washington Post. We reached him in Boston. For insight into the gender gap in orchestras here in Canada, I'm joined by Katherine Carleton. She's the executive director of Orchestras Canada and she is in Peterborough, Ontario. Hello.

KATHERINE CARLETON: Good morning. How are you, Laura?

LL: I am fine. Thank you. I'm wondering what you're thinking as you hear about Elizabeth's Rowe's lawsuit against the Boston Symphony Orchestra.

KATHERINE CARLETON: I'm thinking about orchestral culture and how it is evolving over time. I'm thinking about what Mr. Edgers just said about the experience of the audience going to the concert hall to escape from the realities of daily life. And only after this story broke, considering the conditions under which musicians make music and the intersection of current social issues with what's going on onstage and backstage. And I think that we are facing, as a sector, significant change over time and I'm excited to see it coming.

LL: Is there any part of you that goes, 'Grrrr. I'm mad about this'?

KATHERINE CARLETON: I am a committed lifelong feminist and I will be interested to see the outcome of this particular lawsuit and the discussions that lead to in orchestras across North America.

LL: So tell us how orchestra musician contracts are negotiated in Canada?

KATHERINE CARLETON: So in professional orchestras across Canada, the orchestra associations negotiate with locals of the Canadian Federation of Musicians for collective agreements. And those collective agreements lay out minimum working conditions and wage scales for the professional musicians they engage, and they're very detailed. I remember the first collective bargaining process I was involved in in Halifax, Nova Scotia, working with our then human resources vice president on the board who marveled at the level of detail in these agreements, everything from how much jewelery you could wear on stage, to precisely how long the breaks were in rehearsal. It's all laid out in exquisite detail and that includes compensation for very specific positions in the orchestra, and very specific additional rules that a musician might potentially play.

LL: So do you know of any issues with gender pay gap in orchestras in Canada?

KATHERINE CARLETON: We are somewhat more limited in the information that we can collect. It's a subtle combination of privacy laws as well as a different level of transparency in reporting compensation. Although there is some reporting of compensation in the Canadian tax forms, it's not actually went to an individual's needs. So hard to track.

LL: Let's talk about something called blind audition. What is that?

KATHERINE CARLETON: Most professional orchestras in North America use screens in their editions in order to ensure that, at least in the first round, the judging panel - which is made up of members of the orchestra and the music director - cannot see the individuals who are auditioning for them. So there's no ability to assess whether it's a woman or a man who's performing, whether it's someone of color, someone who's Caucasian. They do not know. There's such care taken in maintaining confidentiality around that that. As you walk out on stage you are likely walking on a carpet. So if you're wearing high heels that will not be heard by audition panel and typically the screen doesnt come down until the very final round.

LL: How long are blind auditions been used and why were they introduced?

KATHERINE CARLETON: I don’t have a precise date. Im going to take a wild guess and suggest that at some point between 1975 and 1980. And the goal was to ensure that it was no longer an insiders’ club and that people could not make assumptions about who they wanted to work with before they had fully understood extent of the person's artistic attainment.

LL: You say the blind ideation is used throughout the first few rounds as you narrow down who an orchestra might hire, but what are the limits to it? What happens toward the very end of the process?

KATHERINE CARLETON: Well some orchestras keep the screens up all the way through the audition process and others will come down in the last round.

LL: Why?

KATHERINE CARLETON: Performing in an orchestra is a highly social activity. Interpersonal skills are a key element of lifelong success in the orchestral field. So the opportunity for the audition panel and the music director to ask questions of the person, to engage them in a conversation, just as you would want to be in any other kind of interview process. You'd want to understand what all the person brought the party and what their interpersonal skills were.

LL: And then I'm just curious to ask you, this whole question of the Boston Symphony's defense being that the oboe is a much more difficult instrument to play. What do you think of that?

KATHERINE CARLETON: I have strong feelings about that. Far be it from me to criticise for leadership of the Boston Symphony Orchestra, but I will say that performing at the level of a principal musician in the Boston Symphony Orchestra is an extraordinary achievement. Achievement at that level, it's very difficult to compare in terms of difficulty. It's all amazing. And I'd also say, there may be fewer oboe players around, but the fact that Ms. Rowe triumphs in her quest for that role indicates that she won out over many more flute players than her colleague won out over competing oboe players for the role. So they're both extraordinary. How does one at the level of skill and commitment work which required between them, I would find that enormously difficult.

LL: Ms. Carleton, thank you for your time.

KATHERINE CARLETON: My pleasure. Thank you so much.

LL: Katherine Carleton is the executive director of Orchestras Canada. Now of course it takes a lot of years of practice and performers to join a professional orchestra, and it seems that gendering of instruments can go all the way back to our earliest musical ensembles. We caught up with the Grade Six Band at Saint Charles Tupper In Halifax just as they were warming up before their holiday concert. And while the band leader says she's noticed instruments becoming less standard over the years, it's interesting to hear why some boys and girls were drawn to their instruments.

SOUNDCLIP

NATE: I'm Nate Kynoche Lykie. I play the baritone. It was big and I wanted to try something big, like trombone but then I was going to be like really how hard to get it exactly where you would hold the piece of the trombone. So I just wanted to try the baritone to see what it sounded like.

PRODUCER: If you were to describe your instrument as a person, what would it be if it was a person?

NATE: Very loud and expressive person. I'm not sure ever it's nice. I don't know. But...

ALICIA: My name's. Aicia Speidel. I'm in grade seven and I play flute.

PRODUCER: Tell me how you chose the flute?

ALICIA: Well, it's small. I can fit it in my backpack and I don't know, it's just quiet.

PRODUCER: Why were you looking for a quiet instrument?

ALICIA: I am not very good at musical instruments so I didn't want to embarrass myself, so, I chose a quiet instrument.

PRODUCER: If your flute was a person, what it would be like?

ALICIA: It would be very small quiet person. It would keep to off a lot.

VOICE: One, two, three, go.

[Band starts playing Jingle Bells]

LL: This sounds of the Grade Six Band ienthralls at Saint Charles Tupper in Halifax, talking about how they came to choose their instruments. Sommer Forrester is an assistant professor of music at the University of Massachusetts Boston, but she used to teach music to middle and high school students in Toronto. It was that experience that inspired here to research how gender stereotypes affect musical instrument selection. We reached Sommer Forrester in Boston. Hello.

SOMMER FORRESTER: Good morning.

LL: In 2018, does the idea that some of those instruments are for girls and some are for boys really still processed?

SOMMER FORRESTER: Unfortunately and surprisingly it does. When I first started my career as a teacher, I remember sitting in my undergraduate classes at the University of Western Ontario and we talked about this and I thought, "Really? Have we not overcome this already? And is this really still an issue?" Surprisingly when I started teaching I was the way of parents who were outraged by the instrument placement that was given to their child. So we thought all of these conversations and negotiations I realized how prominent these issues are today and the impact that it has on students.

LL: What are the instruments that are typically associated with girls and where are the ones that are associated with boys?

SOMMER FORRESTER: Well historically speaking, it's typically the higher timbered instruments. So, flutes, it's often associated with females, whereas lower sounding instruments, so your low bass, tuba, trombone might be associated with males. And I think a lot of that has to do with the natural inclination that we often in society attribute higher pitched voices with individuals who self-identify as female. On the contrary, lower voices with those who self-identify as male.

LL: Well then is there any physiological basis for the idea that there are some instruments that are better for females and others for males at lung capacity hate arm strength or anything like that?

SOMMER FORRESTER: Absolutely not. When we think about this as a coward you give a student with physical attributes, in terms of the shape of one's mouth, bone structure, lips, etc. when we're talking about wind and brass instruments. But in my experience, one of my favorite memories is teaching middle school was when I had a young female student was enthusiastic about playing the tuba, and the tuba was actually taller than her. Nothing could have been a stronger advertisement for the fact that anyone can play an instrument and it doesn't have anything to do with their size or their gender or their sex. And really, in terms of lung capacity, one of the conversations they often had was debunking the myth that a smaller instrument requires less and less lung capacity, couldn't be anything further from the truth. Speak to anyone who plays the flute and they will tell you that they need to use a huge amount of air in order to have the instruments speak, which is a similar situation with the larger lower brass instruments as well.

LL: Have you ever had a girl or the girl's parents saying no to an instrument because they thought it was for a boy?

SOMMER FORRESTER: I did, unfortunately. I faced that many times. I can recall a situation where I had-- I guess I will back up and say that selecting an instrument for a student is not something that music educators take lightly. There is a huge process that goes into it from communication with the student, with the family, to testing in terms of the physical attributes that I was mentioning. And then looking at preferences as well and bouncing the instrumentation of the ensemble. So after doing that I can remember several occasions where we had angry phone calls and e-mails from parents saying, "My child cannot play this instrument because the French - for example - is not a great instrument". Well long before the teacher, myself who is a female, I am a horn player and so the conversation ended quite quickly in that matter.

LL: In that case, did the girl end up playing the horn after all?

SOMMER FORRESTER: Yes absolutely. And it didn't take you to change the mindset of that parents. When the parent saw that actually their child was enjoying the experience and was experiencing success, the narrative changed very quickly.

LL: You taught in an all-girls school and girls picked up all the different instruments to make up the ensemble. What was it like for them to have the pick of all the instruments?

SOMMER FORRESTER: It was one of the most interesting and illuminating experiences. I went in thinking, "Is this going to be a challenge, to have a well-rounded instrumentation? Will I face resistance, in having students aged and all the instruments?" To my surprise I did not encounter it at all. I will say that there was some strategy on my part in terms of how I introduced use the instruments. And I think it speaks to a conversation about culture, as well in creating our culture in the school environment through exposure in role models that create the sort of conversation of normalcy around 'anyone can play anything'.

LL: And are there any role models out there in the performance world now to help and spare girls to pick up instruments that are normally associated with boys?

SOMMER FORRESTER: Absolutely. My favorite examples right now are Carol Jantsch, who is an American. She is the first female tuba player to win a job in a major symphony orchestra. Ms. Jantsch won the role in the Philadelphia Orchestra, through a blind audition in her senior year of steady when she was an undergrad at the University of Michigan. And that story reverberated within the professional orchestra community throughout the world. Now, the notion of role models is something that is critical to this conversation. So really highlighting these role models the individuals who comprise the current make up of these ensembles and who are the professionals in this field is critical for youngsters to see.

LL: I'm going to give you your chance, oboe versus flute? This argument that the oboe is tougher, what do you think?

SOMMER FORRESTER: Well I'm a horn player. So I already lost my vote on that. They're both extremely difficult instruments, particularly when you're starting to learn them, getting the note to speak on both instruments, it's challenging. But as we move through the process of refining the craft, just the sheer volume of what those instrumental lists and the parts that are provided for them. It is an enormous accomplishment to be a professional musician on either of the instruments.

LL: Such an interesting discussion. Thank you Ms. Forrester.

SOMMER FORRESTER: Thank you very much.

LL: Sommer Forrester is an assistant professor of music at the University of Massachusetts. Well coming up in our next hour. Seven Ravens living together in an ancient tower. Not a new sitcom, though it definitely has its moments. It is the real life story of Christopher Raven Master of London. Our conversation right after the break. This is The Current.

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How the ravenmaster of London protects the kingdom with birds

Guests: Christopher Skaife

LL: I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sounds: Ravens caws]

LL: Ah, the melodious tones of a raven's call. Bird experts say that ravens have about eighty different calls and Christopher Skaife says he can identify about a dozen of them. It's all part of the job. Christopher Skaife is Ravenmaster at the Tower of London, a crucially important position since, as legend has it, if the ravens leave the Tower, great harm will befall the kingdom. And that's why the birds Merlina, Rocky, Poppy and the others - seven in all - get one-on-one attention, starting at the first light of day.

LL: Hello. I'm Laura Lynch, in for Anna Maria Tremonti, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

LL: Still to come in the days after our conversation between two strangers brought together by a donated heart, we heard from many of you. In half an hour, we'll hear from two women on their different perspectives on the value of donor families and organ recipients connecting with each other. But first, the Birdman of the British Isles.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sounds of raven calls]

LL: The melodious tones of a raven's call. Bird experts say that ravens have about 80 different calls and Christopher Skaife says he can identify about a dozen of them. It's all part of the job. Christopher Skaife is Ravenmaster at the Tower of London. It's a crucially important position since, as legend has it, if the ravens leave the tower, great harm will befall the kingdom. And that's why the birds Merlina, Rocky, Poppy and the others, seven in all, get one-on-one attention, starting at the first light of day.

SOUNDCLIP

[Opening gate]

VOICE: We're going to make our way to the raven's enclosure. It's a new enclosure that was put in about two years ago. So we're just going to make our way through the little gate now. It's a little bit stiff like I am early in the morning. I've been an old soldier. Good morning you lot. Good morning. So I can see the ravens, they're all kind of hopping around now. We're just going to get some meat and throw it in their enclosure. We're not going to let them out yet.

[Raven calls]

VOICE: They've got a wonderful diet of chopped up Angus beef and mice. Biscuits soaked in blood. It's a bit of a treat for them, they just love it. Morning Poppy. Morning Poppy. There we go young lady. That will keep you busy for a little while. Good girl. Now sometimes I throw her rats as well. And rats, I don't know anybody's ever cut a rat in half, I wouldn't advise it, to be honest with you, but it is really, really stinky.

[Spraying water]

That is a mouse's tail poking out your mouth and there's a dead mouse floating in your water now, isn't it. Why have you put that in there for? Oh my goodness me. I'm just filling up the water bowls now and I can see that Poppy's decided. On the side of it, Poppy has got a mouse sticking out of her mouth and the tail is dangling down. It's disgusting. And the other mouse, she's bit off its head and chucked it in the water bowl. So that would be me going to get that shortly as well.

LL: Yes, it sounds delicious right around breakfast time. Christopher Skaife has written a memoir, The Ravenmaster: My Life with the Ravens at the Tower of London, and he is visiting Toronto. Hello.

CHRISTOPHER SKAIFE: Good morning.

LL: You're in Toronto. The ravens are in London. So who is looking after them? The Kingdom is at risk.

CS: Oh I have a wonderful team of four raven assistants that actually help me look after the ravens, although I am keeping a good eye on what they're actually doing.

LL: Anything happen while you've been away?

CS: No everything's nice and calm. The Kingdom is safe.

LL: Now listen, I apologize to our listeners who may have been listening to that opening bit of tape, as they're eating their breakfast because a raven's breakfast is decidedly different. You start every day with dead mice and rats, biscuits soaked in blood and yet you're calling your job the best job in England, why?

CS: How many Ravenmasters are there in the world? I think officially, I'm the only one. I get up early in the morning. I spend all day observing and looking at the Ravens and then I put them to bed at night.

LL: It just sounds like an idyllic existence. You actually live in the Tower of London too, don't you?

CS: Yeah. Now they say every man's home is his castle you know and in my case, a castle in the city of London, how fabulous is that? There are currently 37 Yeomen Warders living inside the walls of the Tower of London. And actually we live there with our families, as well. We have our own pub there. We have a church. We have our own doctor on site.

LL: Let's get back to the ravens. There's one raven who doesn't deign to sleep in the enclosure with the other birds. Let's listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: We're going to go and see where Merlina is. I think I can actually see on the rooftop, although I'm not wearing my glasses at the moment, so I might be wrong. Hi young lady, should we come and say hello. Do I want biscuit or do I want steak later on? Hmm, I think I've worked out what I want. Steak. Yeah?

[Clicking sound]

VOICE: We have this clicking sound that we make to each other. It's like a hey I'm over here, I'm OK. Hello. So what she's done is she's just picked up the food I've given, a nice bit of beef. You're not going to. You are? No? Are you? Are you going to get that in your mouth? Yes. Yes you are. Imagine sticking in three quarters of a great big steak into your mouth in one go. That's what she's just done. She's just run off now and she's going to hide it around tower green, so that she can come back if she gets a little bit peckish throughout the day.

[Raven call]

VOICE: I'm telling this story, not you. OK? Actually that's probably not a good place to hide it, tucking it in the bannister going down there. Sometimes I despair with these birds.

LL: What a conversation. Now chunks of beef? I didn't know ravens loved angus beef that much.

CS: Yeah absolutely. They get a wonderful diet. Sometimes some liver as well. One occasion we used to throw the raven food out and around the tower and some seagull had picked up this piece of liver and just actually dropped it and it hit a lady on the face and slid down her face and it was wildly embarrassing.

LL: She has a great story to tell.

CS: She has a great story to tell. Yeah, but probably not her children.

LL: Now it was really interesting listening to you actually having a conversation with Merlina. What's your relationship like with her?

CS: Merlina actually came to us when she was about a year, a year and a half old. And so she'd been what I call in the book, "humanized." And over a period of time, she's become my pal, my best friend really. Over the years I've just been observing the ravens, watching them and I realized that like us, they have their own personalities and characteristics and she's certainly a really clever raven.

LL: And she's also unto herself, isn't she?

CS: She is a free spirit. Yeah absolutely.

LL: Now are you as close with the other ravens?

CS: No. We have I a distance between us because I want to keep the ravens at the tower as wild as I possibly can. Because I give them much more freedom of movement around the tower nowadays than they ever have had before. If they were to fly away, they wouldn't rely on humans to actually need to survive, they could go and survive on their own.

LL: But do you have like an enemy among the ravens?

CS: Yeah some of them look at me with a little bit of disdain and think, oh he's here again. He's bothering us again. Yeah absolutely. One of them being Munin. She didn't really like me very much.

LL: She didn't and then she since died I understand.

CS: Yeah, sadly Munin was one of our oldest ravens, but unfortunately she was 23 and she died of an old age related illness a couple of months ago, which was very very sad for us.

LL: Is 23 an old age for a raven?

CS: It's a really good age. Yeah in the wild, depending on environmental conditions that they live in and in their teens between 15 and 20 years. The oldest one of course that we had at the time of London was a raven that died in 1924 and he was 44 years of age.

LL: Good Lord. Wow. I wonder what he did to live such a good life.

CS: I think he had some good Angus beef there.

LL: So after Munin died, I think you got another raven named Poppy, is that correct?

CS: Yeah I have breeders around the country that we can get ravens in. And so when Munin went we replaced her almost immediately with another raven, a baby raven that actually was living around my house with myself and my wife. So I've just introduced her into the enclosure now.

LL: We just have a little bit of tape with you and Poppy. So let's listen to that right now.

SOUNDCLIP

Hello Poppy. Hello Poppy. You ready? Go. That was pathetic. Come over here. Come over here, come, come. We're learning a trick at the moment. You ready? You ready? Go. Good girl. So I've got a biscuit in my hand and I'm actually throwing it to Poppy and Poppy likes to catch it. You ready, ready? Go. Good girl. Who's a good girl?

[Raven call]

LL: It sounds like you are teaching a dog a trick. Are they like pets for you?

CS: Yeah I mean Poppy, she's a beautiful bird and yeah, yeah, she's kind of like a dog to us, yeah, but much more affectionate.

LL: And what about brainpower?

CS: Well they're extremely intelligent. I work alongside Queen Mary University in London and the students come in and I've spent a couple of years now studying the ravens at the Tower of London. In fact, their professor describes them as feathered apes, which basically suggests that ravens have the same capacity of thought as a primate.

LL: And also means that they're probably pretty good at doing things like stealing.

CS: Ravens have been known to steal stuff. In the tower for instance, they've worked out how to steal a sandwich from a member of the public. I describe in the book as like a military mission. As this raven goes, hides underneath a chair, somebody is silly enough to put their sandwich on it and it kind of pokes its beak up through the chair and grabs the sandwich and pulls it down and in the case of Merlina, she comes running back to me as if I was trying to steal the sandwich, trying to give it to me and I say, it's not for me. I don't want it. You stole it.

LL: She also has an affinity for cigarettes?

CS: Yeah. She's not a smoker, but she is an anti-smoker. So one day actually, someone was just about to light up a cigarette. She sneaked over and she stole this whole pack of cigarettes. Went into the middle of the tower green, she brought out every one individually and just completely and utterly smashed them. You know they're quite expensive so yeah, but you know it's good anti-smoking device.

LL: Yeah, that's what she was doing, trying to get them to quit. So we've still got some lovely tape I want to play for listeners, we're still in the midst of your daily morning routine at this point. Let's listen to you letting the ravens out of their enclosure.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I'm going to slide the door open now. We're just going to let the first raven out now. This is Jubilee. It's going to fly out at quite some pace. So standby. Come on then young man, come on out.

[Raven flapping wings]

VOICE: Now you may have noticed when he was flying out that you heard a lot of commotion coming from two ravens. Now that is Erin and Rocky and because they're the dominant ravens here, they were going, oy you're in my area. Get out my area now. And that's why he went a fast pace and got out of it quite quickly. So what we're going to do now is we're going to let out Gripp and Harris. Come on in you two. These two are going to come over here now. These two.

LL: Christopher Skaife, there is significance to the order in which you let the ravens out every day, isn't there?

CS: Absolutely, yeah ravens have a pecking order. Excuse the pun, but they do. And so I let the non-dominant ones out first so they can go to their territories around the tower and at night time I do that in reverse as well.

LL: What happens when you mess with that?

CS: When I mess with it all hell breaks loose. Chaos, absolute chaos. And there was an example of that many years ago. It was my birthday and my wife was taking me out for a lovely meal, but I had to put the birds to bed. It was one of them cold, wintry, drizzly type evenings. So I went on tower green and Merlina was nowhere to be seen. She was normally up in a holly tree hiding anyway. So I went with the other birds to bed. And there was two that weren't in the pecking order, that we're near the enclosures so I thought for a bit quick speed, I put them to bed first. So I've done that. Then I realized that the two dominant ones were watching me and they just looked at me and I knew what they was thinking. They was thinking you've done that out of order. So I went to try and put them to bed and they actually went up to the south side of the White House steps, which is a set of wooden steps and they were right at the top of it. So I had to climb up in the dark and it was raining and I had my winter boots on. So I climbed up to the top of the steps and just as I was about to get them, I slipped and I hurt myself quite profusely on a beam.

LL: I don't want to get too graphic, but how did you hurt yourself?

CS: It was a man issue that I hurt myself on that was extremely painful and I just think the birds kind of base jumped off it at that same time as I kind of smashed myself in between my legs and they went and went into their enclosure and I kind of had to embarrassingly climbed down these steps.

LL: You describe one point looking up at them and you're sure they're doing something.

CS: Yeah they was laughing at me. I can guarantee you they was laughing at me. Those looking at me going silly old man down there, what's he doing.

LL: But the story doesn't end there.

CS: No, no, no, that's just the beginning. They eventually went to bed and I kind of slammed the door behind them a little bit harder than I probably should of. So the last one I had to put to bed was Merlina and she was nowhere to be found. So I walked around the tower for nearly an hour looking for her, couldn't see her at all. So I thought this is it. Running out of time, my wife be waiting for me. It's my birthday so I'll go and get my sharkseye. Now a sharkseye is a really big torch that we have in a store that helps me to discover where ravens hide in dark recesses around the tower. And so I turned it on and I was searching around the tower. It was just like something from the Second World War, this great big flashlight beaming around the tower. And as I went under the archway of the Bloody Tower, I heard this croaking sound and I thought it's a Christmas miracle, I know where she is. And she'd actually just hid underneath a wooden platform that actually goes into a tower called the wakeful tower where we keep our instruments of torture. It's in an area where there is a pit and doesn't really have much use this pit, apart from stagnant water and visitor rubbish and dead pigeon carcasses.

LL: Sounds lovely.

CS: It's not particularly nice to be honest with you and I wasn't relishing the fact that I had to go into this pit. It was about seven foot deep and there was a sort of old wooden steps that went down to it.

LL: You called it the pit of doom, didn't you?

CS: Yep. I named the pit of doom because it was certainly a pit of doom for me that night. So as I was actually going down because it was the only way that I was actually going to get out of underneath this platform. And as I got down to the third step, it snapped and there's this crack and I kind of remember you know these birds flashing around my head as I fell into this pit of doom, upside down into the water and I could remember this pigeon carcass floating past my eyes. So I managed to get myself up and wipe the dirt and rubbish off me and then I realized I I didn't have my phone on me and I couldn't get out of this pit. So I was stuck there for nearly half an hour. But the thing about it is that Merlina actually had just kind of walked her way out from where she was hiding and sat on the fence above me, just kind of looking down at me and laughing at me.

LL: They're having away with you, these guys.

CS: Yeah and that's just one of the examples. I'm probably the only Ravenmaster that I know in history that's climbed to the top of the white tower and hung on the weather vane up there trying to catch a naughty raven. So I, you know, for the preservation of the ravens and the safety of the kingdom, I've done some really crazy things.

LL: Right, but Christopher you can't leave listeners hanging. How did you get out of the pit?

CS: I had actually broken two steps and I managed to just wedge them inside a wall and stand on them and I had to kind of jump up to grab hold and I'm quite short, but I just managed to get hold of the tip with my fingertips and I had enough strength to pull myself up eventually. I actually missed my meal. So we decided to have beans on toast for my birthday.

LL: What a lovely celebration.

CS: What a lovely celebration, but she did see the funny side of it and I made the mistake of one, not putting the birds in the right order and two, not taking my phone with me.

LL: And quoth Christopher, never more.

CS: Absolutely, quoth the Christopher, never more.

LL: Now that legend about the kingdom falling if the ravens leave the tower. Where does that come from?

CS: It's a really interesting question. Actually the stories of the ravens don't really date back much earlier than about 1880. Now the history is or the legend is, King Charles the Second came to the Tower of London. The wall astronomer at the time, a man by the name of John Flamsteed, had a telescope and he was you know working out his calculations of the stars and the planets and the moon. And he was getting fed up with the ravens around it. It was one of the tallest buildings in London. So this morning he went down to the king, said squire can I get rid of these confounded ravens and the king said of course you can. Until someone went to the king and said, if you get rid of the ravens the Tower of London will crumble into dust and a great harm will befall the kingdom. Of course King Charles the Second, the merry monarch, is quite superstitious. His father, King Charles the First, had been executed. There'd been a plague in London 1665. The Great Fire of London, 1666. So he thought, I better keep six here by royal decree. So that is the legend of the Ravens at the Tower of London. But it probably didn't really start appearing in that much detail until after the Second World War.

LL: OK and is it true?

CS: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's true to this day. Yeah. I mean I'm a storyteller, so I tell stories about the legends and the myths and the laws of the Tower of London. So it absolutely is true. Otherwise I'd be out of a job.

LL: Well speaking of telling tales, that is part of your job too as the tourists come to see it. With Halloween upon us, I wonder if you could just touch on all the stories you hear of the ghosts that are in the tower.

CS: Yeah I mean I like to call them echoes of the past, which is a really nice way of saying it. So do I believe in ghosts? Well yes and no. And there have been some odd things that go on at the tower and one of them is a story that I tell in the book about a young girl. I was putting the ravens to bed one night and one evening it was about half past seven at night, there was a little girl sitting on a bench by the side of us. And the tower was shot and I didn't recognize her as one of the resident's daughters or anything like that. She was wearing just normal civilian clothes. She wasn't in any fancy tunic costume or anything like that and I just said to her, excuse me young lady, I said I need to get these two ravens past you. So could you just move over this way. You can watch me put the birds to bed, but just move over this way. So I mean she was just looking at me. I didn't really notice any, I didn't take any notice of who she was or what she was doing or anything like that. So I opened up the enclosure. I turned around to see if she'd gone and she completely disappeared. And there was no way, no way at all that she could have walked past me in that split second and even to this day I have no idea who that little girl was.

LL: And she wasn't a guest of any of the other Yeomen Warders?

CS: I've asked all around and she was not a guest of any of the young warders and it was just one of those strange, strange, I mean I've had several of them that I mention in the book, but this is one of the strange, strange moments that I just can't explain.

LL: Chilling. Let get back to the ravens. So if you have to keep the ravens there, how do you do it? How do you keep them from leaving the tower? Aside from making them understand that you're a source of food for them.

CS: Well we had a new enclosure put into the Tower of London about two and a half years ago. So that really does help me to keep the ravens at the tower. Previously before, we would trim up the odd flight feather to kind of ground them around there, but nowadays actually I don't do that very much. I call it feather management, which is a rather nice way of saying it. So it very much depends on the size of the bird, the weight of the bird, who they're bonded with, what time of year it is, the weather. So all the ravens at the Tower of London now have the ability to fly off if they so desire. But with the use of the enclosure and food helps a lot and my observations, I actually don't have to do that much trimming. I mean I still do the odd one, now and again, if I see a raven get a little bit unruly, but other than that, I don't actually do it very much now.

LL: But there was one reason why, a sad one, that prompted you to change how you do trim the ravens feathers. Tell me what happened.

CS: Yeah early on, this was before I was a Ravenmaster actually. It was a sad occasion. At the time we had some scaffold works taking place at the white tower. Two of the ravens had climbed up the top, Munin, the Black Widow as I call her and Thor. And it was at the time when we used to trim up the flight feathers and the story talks about me going up to the top of the White Tower, climbing up the scaffold and Munin jumped off and she was light, she glided down on to tower green. But Thor actually jumped off and he couldn't fly and he was heavier and he fell down to the floor and hit the floor quite hard. And so by the time I actually got down to him, I could see that he was in, you know he was dying. So I picked him up and held him to my chest and he died in my arms. And from that moment on was I said to myself, if I ever take over as Ravenmaster, this is never going to happen again. And so over a period of four or five years, I changed it. And now all the ravens, if they jump of any where they are in a tower, they just glide down and enjoy themselves. In fact, many of them when I put them to bed at night time, fly around the tower and do a couple of loops off the tower and sometimes they fly outside the tower and then come back and then go to bed.

LL: Sounds like you found the solution and I'm sorry you had to recount that. I'm wondering nowadays aside from protecting the Kingdom, at least according to the legend, what do you see as the role of the ravens in the tower?

CS: They have three million visitors that come to the Tower of London each year and we have the crown jewels and the war regalia there and armour. The ravens are also a big draw as well. And the ravens work, you know they don't get free board and lodge, they have to be seen by the visitors as they come in, but I don't want the visitor to interact with the raven because ravens are beautiful. They need to be looked at, observed and watched in awe and how beautiful they are and how intelligent they are. That's what I see the role of the ravens doing. I mean it's a really privileged position as the Ravenmaster to help educate people about ravens, how smart they are, where they live in the environment, how they should be looked after as well. So I see the ravens that we have at the Tower of London as educational role as well.

LL: You've had a rich life. You've experienced conflict in your life in the military. Now you've got this life with the ravens and I'm wondering how they have changed you.

CS: The ravens were my teachers and I am their pupil. So whenever I go out and look at a raven, I spend a lot of time looking at them. They always seem to surprise me in what they do and how they do things and they just, I see them be excited and happy and angry and bored and miserable when it's raining and it's just like us, they're just like us and they're wonderful like that. They're so beautiful.

LL: Christopher Skaife, I thank you for sharing your tales of the ravens and being so honest about what they've done to you over the years. I hope you take good care when you get back there with them.

CS: Yeah hopefully I will spend many years with them and enjoying them and learning from them. Yeah absolutely.

LL: Thank you.

CS: Thank you very much for having me, Laura.

LL: Christopher Skaife is the author of "The Ravenmaster: My Life With the Ravens At The Tower of London." He joined me in our Toronto studio, in October. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. Today Tom Power speaks with Ari Aster, director of the critically acclaimed horror film, "Hereditary." And remember, you can always take The Current with you to go on the CBC Radio app. It lets you browse through past episodes of our show and start listening in just a few seconds. You can search for stories you missed or want to hear again, or listen LIVE to your local CBC station, right from your smartphone or tablet. Hear the day's top stories, even make your own playlist of your favourite stuff to listen to later. It's free from the App Store or Google Play. Finally today, after our conversation about gender and classical music, let's end today's show with some music. This is the Allegra Chamber Orchestra, from Vancouver. It's an all-female ensemble, conducted by Janna Sailor. This is from a recording on YouTube of the group performing a piece called "Triptych: Earthly Delights," last year, in a show of support for refugees and Amnesty International. I'm Laura Lynch. Thanks for listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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Friday December 14, 2018 Full Transcript

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