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The AIH Transcript for December 11, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight...

CO: Exit visas. After a former Canadian diplomat is arrested in Beijing, our guest says it's time to hit Chinese elites where it hurts: by withdrawing the Canadian officials stamping visitors visas for Vancouver and Toronto.

JD: Brexit wounds. Still stinging from a rebellion at home British Prime Minister Theresa May travels to the continent only to face the scorn of European leaders who will not reopen her Brexit deal.

CO: Over a barrel. Cheap oil is hurting the small town of Drayton Valley, Alberta -- so residents have banded together to ask the federal government for action on pipelines.

JD: Anything to declare? Well yes as a matter of fact -- Canada Border Services declares it may be rebooting its reality TV show. Our guest says that the reality is that that is a bad idea.

CO: Things fall apart -- the senators cannot hold. While it's crumbling old home is renovated, the Senate will be in a temporary one and you had some...not-entirely-respectful suggestions about what it should be called.

JD: Oh my! And... it's lonely as the top. But a performance artist did manage to connect with even the surliest New York commuters over Hanukkah by spinning around in the subway dressed as a human dreidel. As It Happens. The Tuesday edition. Radio that guesses his story is nothing but turning points.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: The Human Dreidel of New York City just wants to 'cheer people up'

China: Canadian detained

Guest: Jorge Guajardo

JD: The timing certainly seems strange. Last night a former Canadian diplomat was detained in Beijing. The Chinese government had given no reason for Michael Kovrig's arrest by the time we went to air -- but his detention comes just days after Beijing warned that there would be grave consequences for the arrest in Vancouver of the Chinese Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou. Ms. Meng was released on bail today pending a hearing on an extradition request from the United States. Well this afternoon in Ottawa reporters asked the Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale what his government was doing about Mr. Kovrig's case.

SOUNDCLIP

RALPH GOODALE: We are deeply concerned by the situation. The Canadian diplomatic officials have been in touch with their Chinese counterparts to explain how seriously Canadians view this and the deep concerns that we have. And consular officials have been in touch with the family to establish contact there and to try to offer every kind of support that we can. And Minister Freeland and her officials will be taking all appropriate action.

JD: That was Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale speaking to reporters in Ottawa. Well Jorge Guajardo had a suggestion for what kind of action Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister might want to take. Mr. Guajardo was Mexico's ambassador to Beijing from 2007 until 2013. We reached him in Washington D.C. before Meng Wanzhou was released on bail.

CO: Mr. Guajardo you just heard the Public Safety Minister saying that Chrystia Freeland will do whatever is appropriate. What do you think that she should do? What should Canada do at this point?

JORGE GUAJARDO: I've suggested the possibility in that would be something I would entertain if I was in her shoes to simply closing the Canadian consulates in China, to probably suspend the issuance of visas to Chinese nationals while the situation is clarified -- this would be simply applying reciprocity to the way they act. And I think it sends a strong message that if they are not willing to offer guarantees to Canadian citizens in China then other countries in this case Canada will have to revise how welcoming they are of Chinese citizens. China warned slash threatened Canada that they would act this way and then they acted. Clearly it's hard to overlook this.

CO: You say that this is just one way of dealing with things. That's pretty dramatic, isn't it? That you would summon the entire Canadian consular corps in China and call them all home.

JG: It is rather dramatic. But I would add Carol, that my impression is that Canadians don't appreciate how good a hand they have when it comes to dealing with China. Canada is probably one of the most preferred destinations for the Chinese and the Chinese elites in particular. Part of the social contract in China is that people don't meddle in government in as much as the government provides for a better life. Limiting their traveling options is not providing for a better life to Chinese officials and I think it's the type of thing that gets the attention of Chinese authorities.

CO: So you are saying that the elites, the Chinese elites, who like to come to Canada will not be able to get visas?

JG: I would say that it sends a message that maybe there will be a two month delay or something that sends a message that this is not business as usual and it will not be taken as a business as usual.

CO: You say that you think this is tit for tat. What makes you so sure that the arrest of Mr. Kovrig was a reprisal for Canada's detention of Meng Wanzhou?

JG: I am not sure of that but I will tell you that they did issue a warning two days ago. And I believe 12 hours have passed and the Chinese have not issued a clarification. So even if it was not a tit for tat -- the fact that they would let 12 hours pass without issuing something that puts Canadians in China at ease -- the fact that they would not issue that statement tells me that they want this situation to create the unease that it is creating among Canadians. I'd be hard pressed to feel at ease if I was a Canadian in China now -- the way they're acting and the fact that they would target a former diplomat. That's about as close as you can get to targeting a government directly.

CO: Let's just for a moment talk about Michael Kovrig, this man who has been detained and he was a senior adviser for the International Crisis Group in the region. He was just on leave to do the job so he's still technically a member of the diplomatic staff of Canada and he was also part of a research group that was called Canada's Global Security Reporting Program -- many countries regard that to be on the edge of spying -- that they regard that to be intrusive. Canada doesn't see it that way -- it is just doing reporting and research. Are there not independent of what's happened to Meng Wanzhou -- are there reasons why they might pick Mr. Kovrig up?

JG: Maybe. Is he the biggest threat to China now? I doubt it. I don't know the circumstances behind his intention. I do question the timing and I do question the silence.

CO: At the same time if we did withdraw the Canadian diplomat corps from China...

JG: The consular corps.

CO: The consular corps. At the same time all those Canadians who are in China right now who live and work and are married and they have all kinds of jobs and contracts there. Aren't we putting them at risk if we don't have a lot of representation to take care of people if there are great threats to them right now?

JG: Yes you would. Yes you would be putting them at risk. So that's why I say probably just a closure for maintenance for upgrading the computer system whatever you want to call it. I remember China in 2000 closed all their consulates in Mexico and they said it was maintenance -- and every time we lodged a complaint they said 'oh well you know we are making some maintenance work on them.' So probably that's something that they would understand more easily.

CO: So you said there's a way of doing this just to be annoying without blowing things up.

JG: Probably. That's what I'm alluding to -- is just sending a message that this will not be taken as business as usual.

CO: As you know the situation is that there is this extradition request and Canada is looking at the possibility of sending Meng Wanzhou to the United States. The United States and China are in the middle of a big trade and tech war. And Canada is in the middle of it. So you know what it has to be a small power caught in a big battle here. How should we respond to this? I mean this is a very difficult position to be in isn't it?

JG: Yes it certainly is a difficult position. But I think Canada is much more powerful than it assumes itself when it comes to China. Again just for the simple reason that it's one of China's preferred destinations it brings a lot of things to the table when it comes to China. Mind you Prime Minister Trudeau was talking about a free trade agreement with China precisely at a time when barriers are being erected in the North American Free Trade Zone for China. So if anything Canada has been a friendly country towards China -- the Chinese should realize this. And that they would want to target Canada instead of the United States in this issue that clearly is directed by the United State -- not directed, but requested the United States the detention -- it's the typical case of what the Chinese call, killing the chicken to scare the monkey. And I don't think they're going to scare the monkey much but they may just end up killing the chicken. So I think Canada should just assume itself as a much more powerful player in this equation.

CO: Okay I'm going to process that image as best I can [chuckles] and leave it there. Mr. Guajardo I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

JG: Thank you Carol.

CO: Bye.

JD: Jorge Guajardo was Mexico's ambassador to China until 2013. We reached him earlier this evening in Washington D.C. Shortly after that conversation a Vancouver judge agreed to release the Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou on bail pending a hearing into her extradition to the United States.

[Music]

Gaetan Baillargeon

JD: He took a stand. And kept his seat. Last week we spoke with Gaetan Baillargeon, a newly-elected councillor in Hearst, Ontario. Mr. Baillargeon is a member of the Constance Lake First Nation -- and as an Indigenous person he refused to pledge allegiance to the Queen during a swearing-in ceremony. Well at the time the province said that there were no exceptions to that rule so Mr. Baillargeon could not take his seat. Officials have since had second thoughts on that. And today Mr. Baillargeon was sworn in using an alternate option for Indigenous people -- without anything about allegiance to the crown. Mr. Baillargeon spoke with Radio Canada reporter Francis Bouchard shortly after -- shortly before rather his swearing in.

SOUNDCLIP

GAETAN BAILLARGEON: Well for the last few days I've just been happy -- I've been all smiles. I've been trying to discuss with the people that I see around the street and trying to let them know that I am still here and I want to represent them -- just letting them know that we were able to push through and get it done and extremely happy right now.

FRANCIS BOUCHARD: What is different about the declaration that you will give today?

GB: Inside of the box where you can put your [inaudible] it says we are the Indigenous people of Canada -- that basically what I always seen were the views conflict with the relationship between the majesty -- the Queen and the Indigenous people of Canada.

FB: And what does it mean to you to be able to resume your duties as a town councillor?

GB: Well I think I am a minority, visibly and everything about me is, and that's who I want to represent. I want to represent not only that but everybody in the Town of Hearst, and I'm extremely happy. It makes me proud to be part of this community. Like I said I'm a man of my word and I think the actions show that I'll stick to whatever I say I'm going to do.

JD: Geatan Baillargeon speaking with Radio Canada's Francis Bouchard shortly before being sworn into office today in Hearst, Ontario.

[Music]

Alberta oil letters

Guest: Tim Cameron

JD: The town of Drayton Valley, Alberta is deeply entwined with the energy industry. So much so that the official town crest is dotted with oil towers. And so with the slump in oil prices residents in the town of about 7,000 people say that they are hurting. Which is why yesterday a handful of business owners made the journey to Edmonton to deliver 6,800 with a single message: 'Build pipelines now.' Tim Cameron is a lifelong Drayton Valley resident. He organized the campaign and helped deliver the letters to the Alberta Legislature. We reached him in Red Deer.

CO: Tim first of all how much have things changed in Drayton Valley since the drop in oil prices?

TIM CAMERON: Well there has kind of been two drops. Initially it was -- you're right the prices of oil fell and we saw jobs leave and projects canceled and the rest. And then -- I don't really want to call it a recovery, but we had brief moments of more activity. And then what's happened in the last month basically has been a precipitous drop off. It's really like being t-boned in a car accident -- you didn't see this coming. People have been funding their businesses and their employees out of their own pocket. I can't even count the number of business owners that are telling me that they're paying their employees out of savings, out of RRSP they cashed in. And that's after laying off a bunch more employees. Nobody saw this coming and now unfortunately there's no light on the horizon for Canadian families in our area. It's really sad. It's really unfortunate.

CO: A few things -- just don't want to say any of this impacts your community, but we know that well I guess there are still apparently efforts to get at least the Trans Mountain pipeline going and that Canada has bought that pipeline four and a half billion dollars to see if we they can get over the hurdles to get that pipeline to tidewater. Something else that the Alberta government announced today that they're going to seek private investment for a new oil refinery. So does that give any light at the end of the tunnel for you?

TC: No it doesn't Carol. And the reason for that is you know we keep hearing 'oh well the short term. Short term. And we'll see positive impact short term.' But short term started literally for us when the Trans Mountain pipeline activity was suspended four months ago -- nothing's developed from that. So we're in a worse position now than we were prior to the pipeline being purchased in the first place unfortunately. Now as far as I can tell all industry confidence has nearly been eroded. We're seeing companies like CNRL for example is just one major player in Alberta and now they're cutting one billion dollars worth of investment in the industry next year -- like that is thousands of Canadian families that aren't going to be working now. And that means that budget that's coming down the pipe starting January 1st has nothing in it for them. Where do we go? I mean it used to be that you just traveled down the road maybe and you'd find some work there --that's the nature of our business unfortunately and I don't think many people understand it but it's what we've become accustomed to and we're somewhat proud of it. But we can't travel down the road now and find work.

CO: These letters that you passed to the Alberta Legislature and they are addressed to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau -- what are you asking the prime minister to do?

TC: We're asking for intervention. We see intervention from governments on a variety of topics immediately right across the spectrum Carol. And that's what we're saying is that we're talking and discussing and we're reviewing and contemplating -- well unfortunately none of those things will help these Canadian families pay their bills January 15th. There are people that aren't paying their bills right now because they can't. I've got a laundry list of those stories unfortunately. So what we need is action. And when do we need it? Right now. Because like I mentioned the new budgets would roll out typically for January 1st and we start to see projects come back on board and people will go back to work. Well there's none of that happening right now.

CO: But why do you have any faith that Justin Trudeau would deliver that? We've watched the political opposition in Alberta say that he's the problem not the solution. We're seeing Rachel Notley, your premier, wobbling on this a bit -- she says well I'm still asking him for the pipelines but she has been saying some pretty negative things about the federal government. So why address anything to Ottawa? What faith do you have in Ottawa doing anything about the situation you're in?

TC: You know Carol we have faith in that Justin Trudeau is Canadian just like us. And Justin Trudeau has kids just like us. So that's why -- is that at the end of the day he's shown unbelievable empathy and sympathy for a variety of causes and I mean ours is a cause no different than any other.

CO: This might seem harsh to say but I have to say that I've heard similar things people were saying in Newfoundland and in Cape Breton as those people left their homes and went to Alberta to work because they couldn't work in their province anymore -- they couldn't stay home, they had to go to Alberta. Are people considering that? They're thinking they're going to have to leave the way people came to Alberta?

TC: It's happening right now Carol. Perfect example was I traveled to the United States three weeks ago to explore some opportunities there because for the first time since I left college there's no jobs in front of me -- there's not even business opportunities. When I came back and I crossed the border, the border guard said to me what's happening? He said we use to see maybe one Canadian or two Canadians a week would be looking for work in the States. We were four hours into his shift and he said you're the third one today. He said what's happening? And I said what's happening is south of the border there's opportunities in an industry that's not just thriving but it's being supported by its country -- and at home we're not finding about. I'm a proud father of three great boys and the husband to an amazing wife -- the impact of what's happening is real in every facet right now of my life. It's a conversation that my kids come home with about friends that are telling them that they're not going to be in school after Christmas. It's just super important that we're having the conversation with Canadians about that -- you know there's no perfect industry right now, there's no perfect ideology right now, but what are we? At the end of the day we're Canadians, and the only way we're going to be able to continue with any sort of industry here is if Canadians help us and they speak up and at the end of the day I think Alberta has certainly contributed to the greater good of Canada and hopefully we can turn that into some action.

CO: Well Tim I'm really glad that you brought the conversation to us and I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

TC: That's great. Thank you very much for the time and opportunity.

CO: Take care of yourself over Christmas.

TC: Thank you, you as well.

CO: Okay bye.

TC: Bye now.

JD: Tim Cameron organized a pro-pipeline letter writing campaign on behalf of the town of Drayton Valley, Alberta. We reached Mr. Cameron in Red Deer.

[Music]

Egypt yellow vest restriction

JD: Dateline: Egypt.

[Music]

JD: In March human rights groups described Egypt's presidential election as farcical and said the government is "presiding over the country's worst human rights crisis in decades." There are ongoing and severe crackdowns on freedom of the press and on the LGBTQ community. Since 2013 Egyptian authorities have detained tens of thousands of people. And everyone but the extremely wealthy is struggling with rising inflation and skyrocketing electrical costs. Now this all means the possibility of public unrest especially since the anniversary of the overthrow of former President Hosni Mubarak is coming up in February. And so the Egyptian government has taken a good look at the situation -- it has examined its policies and it has taken the bold step... of banning yellow vests. In France these vests are 'gilets jaunes.' They've become the uniform of choice for protesters there. And on that significant anniversary Egyptian authorities do not want any of that French style nonsense going on in the streets. So they have ordered stores that supply these reflective vests to not sell to walk-in customers. And anyone selling wholesale needs the permission of the police before the sale goes through. Officials said that any vest dealer who fails to follow these new rules will be punished. Well you can't stop people from playing golf by banning those green golf visors. And you can't stop people from rebelling against an oppressive authoritarian regime by banning yellow vests. What you could do is stop being oppressive and authoritarian. But the Egyptian government has apparently decided to remain clothes-minded.

[Music]

Human dreidel

Guest: Jason Izen

JD: New Yorkers are typically pretty unfazed especially in the subway where all kinds of odd things happen all the time. But one man has impressed even seen-it-all New York commuters. They call him... 'The Human Dreidel.' Jason Izen spent much of Hanukkah dancing in the subway in a large dreidel costume. We reached Mr. Izen in New York.

CO: Jason... why? Why have you been dressing up as a dreidel and dancing in the subway?

JASON IZEN: This whole thing made me think, why am I doing this? Well, I just want to cheer people up and I finally got the courage after a long time to perform, to make people laugh. I feel it's my job at least to do my best to cheer people up, especially in New York. And it's really hard for me to watch anyone suffer when I know that I can at least attempt to cheer them up.

CO: Just describe this for us. Give us the picture. What is your costume look like?

JI: It's polyester. It's really really cheap. I couldn't get the wrinkles out [chuckles]. It's great blue and it has Hebrew symbols. It's supposed to be a square and then it's got a head piece which I hated wearing but I know it makes me look better. It's connected by bobby pins. It was way too big for me this whole thing -- it says one size fits all but I am so tiny so we had to make it work.

CO: I mean I've just seen the video -- I haven't seen you in the flesh doing this but it sure looks like a dreidel. And most importantly you're doing what it is doing -- you're doing what a dreidel does which is to spin, right?

JI: Yeah. Yeah I love spinning. I mean it pulls me down a lot but it was my pleasure to spin.

CO: And I watched the video to see you spin and you're really moving. That's quite the dizzying effect that you're creating.

JI: [Chuckles] Yeah. You got me laughing here. Yeah I've been doing this for many years and people always ask me 'if I get dizzy' but I just had so much practice.

CO: Okay so you're on the subway, or in the subway, around the subway, and you're spinning like a dreidel does at a rapid rate. And what are people doing? How are they reacting to you?

JI: Well people really reacted well with this dreidel costume. You know when I go out without the costume and I have this beard and I look creepy, I guess people don't react as well. But with the costume people really enjoyed it. People would yell 'dreidel dreidel.' And especially you know younger people really get into it. And some people would spin with me.

CO: But I've seen some pictures of people, I can't believe they could do this, but they're just carrying on their business -- they're looking at their cell phones, they're staring into space, they're not watching you. I mean is it possible that New Yorkers are so jaded that even a man who is a human dreidel [laughter] in front of them cannot distract them from their phones. C'mon Jason!

JI: [Laughs] I know I need to do better. I mean I can do better. Yeah on the train it's a whole another story because you know they're captive -- you know they're my hostages.

CO: Now I think it's great. It's just wonderful to watch. It does make a person laugh. But you've been doing this for a while now, right? This is not your first spinning dancing subway scene, right? How did this begin?

JI: Yeah I mean dancing is the love of my life. You know I love to run. I love to dance. I love to jump. And you know I started doing it indoors at music shows but when I didn't have the money anymore I just started going out and doing it on the train as my stress relief. But also you know to cheer people up.

CO: How do you feel when you're dancing in public like that?

JI: Well I love it now. I've learned to not be so serious with it -- and laugh you know. I used to be really stressful -- like you know I had in my mind that I have to be the best in the world. You know I used to injure myself a lot. I use to fall a lot. But now that I don't take it so seriously, you know that I allow myself to laugh and enjoy it, it does a lot better. It's really fun for me to do.

CO: But you have more now their costumes, right? When you've done this in publicly. Tell people about some of the others.

JI: [Laughs] Yeah I have a couple of dresses hanging up on my wall that I got for free that I haven't worn yet. But I mean that's just what people want to see I guess. I don't know -- that is just what will make people laugh because especially I have a beard. I went out on Halloween and I wore women's lingerie and I just thought it would be funny to wear a bra backwards. And I have this pink hat -- and even if I'm holding the pink hat people just laugh seeing this pink cowboy hat. So yeah I wore that and people think that's funny I'm just you know trying to do whatever people need for a laugh. Oh I did wear a dress. I have this rock n' roll dress that I wore. But yeah it has taken me a lot of courage you know that's why I like I'm gaining more and more. And it helps especially that you know people really love it.

CO: The dreidel costume was great. Your Halloween costume [chuckles] was your best. What's next? You said you've got a couple of other things hanging up, but you're considering. What might you be wearing in the New York subway system and dancing in the near future?

JI: So I was thinking you know I'm going to do something for Christmas. Someone gave me the idea to be an elf. And I'm very small so I would be a good elf.

CO: I think that's great. And I really look forward to seeing that.

JI: [Chuckles] Well thanks so much.

CO: Jason it was great to talk to you. Thanks. Bye.

JI: Yeah it was great talking to you too. Thanks so much.

JD: Jason Izen is a performance artist known as 'the human dreidel' for dancing in the New York subway in a dreidel costume.

[Music]

Part 2: Theresa May and Brexit

Brexit: European Union

Guest: Marietje Schaake

JD: If there is anyone feeling the need to get out of the UK right now, it is likely Theresa May. But the British prime minister's visit to the continent is anything but a vacay. Ms. May is desperately trying to salvage her doomed Brexit deal which has in its current form little hope of being passed in parliament. And so she's in last ditch talks with European leaders trying to get guarantees that the UK will be able to eventually get out of one of the deal's most controversial sections. That being the section dealing with the Irish border. Marietje Schaake is a member of European Parliament for the Netherlands. We reached her in Strasbourg, France.

CO: Ms. Schaake as you've probably heard in British parliament Theresa May is being called the runaway prime minister. Do you think that things are going much better for her with European officials today?

MARIETJE SCHAAKE: Well I think it's peculiar who would call her a runaway prime minister when in fact a lot of politicians that have been you know advocating for Brexit and the Brexit couldn't be hard enough have actually themselves run away. So I think at least she's trying to stand for a deal that's been negotiated over months with 27 member states. And you know I think she can try to get clarification on some issues that may not be entirely clear for everybody. But that's about it.

CO: And she's looking for more than clarification, isn't she? I mean she wants reassurances around this Northern Ireland border plan because what they want to avoid is a hard border between Northern Ireland -- the province and Ireland the country. But at the same time though they want to avoid, they don't want to be this backstop as it's called -- to be permanent. They want an exit strategy for that. I mean what are the chances that they could get further on that?

MS: I don't think there is much wiggle room and I also think people forget that if there's no deal there's also no backstop. So the people that are pushing for more safeguards are at the same time saying this deal is bad for other reasons. So I don't know if there is not a bit of a political games being played or if there are some on the Brexit side that are just never going to be satisfied with any kind of outcome that Theresa May has achieved in the negotiations and may achieve with a clarifying statement.

CO: It's interesting what you are saying because one suggestion is that why not separate the backstop part, put it into an addendum -- a separate vote, and vote on the rest of it which some people think she can get that passed in parliament. And then have another vote on the addendum and see how that goes. Do you think that's a solution?

MS: I think it is very very unlikely that the EU would allow for the peeling apart of what has been negotiated as a package. I'm working on trade a lot. I negotiate a lot of resolutions here in the parliament and it is normally a comprehensive package where the famous sentence goes 'nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.' And again I think we should also not allow this backstop to be inflated into something it's not. It is a emergency solution. Everybody wants the Friday Agreement, the peace to stand -- and you know the context that I believe is important here people speak about no deal or the backstop in abstract terms but this is about people, this is about peace, and it is very important that that is also seen for what it is.

CO: What you point out is very important for anyone who isn't following this closely -- that that hard border in Ireland could be the end of that very important Good Friday Agreement, the peace agreement, that has brought years of conflict to an end -- and to upset that could have grave consequences, right?

MS: It would be very irresponsible. And I think that you know people who are frivolously talking about all kinds of options that Brexit was going to bring, that it was going to be fantastic, you know one promise was even better than the other -- we've heard so many suggestions of what this would bring and now the moment of truth is here and it doesn't look so rosy. In fact it looks chaotic. And it looks like there's no good way out.

CO: And we heard from the EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker who said that this is the only deal possible, it's not going to get better. Is that true? I mean is there really nothing? Is there actually no wiggle room in your view?

MS: I would like to believe that the wiggle room that was there has been used. Of course this is not the outcome of an instant process. There has been months of intense negotiations. So the wiggle room has been used. And I do believe that there is not much left. Plus I also don't see the EU 27 opening up what they believe is an acceptable deal to accommodate a bunch of people demanding alterations without any guarantee that they would accept the next phase. You know these are people that have said no to everything that has been presented, so why would we trust that a next iteration of a negotiated agreement would be supported.

CO: Trust is a big word, but is it not true though in politics there is always another way of doing things. I mean you never give up until it is over, right? Is it not possible -- we have seen what happens in the EU when it's right at the last moment, backs are to the wall, that maybe things can change. Maybe say okay yeah we can see our way through to conceding on a few of these points.

MS: Look nobody can predict the future and this whole Brexit unfolding is quite unpredictable as it is. You know everybody's hoping to seek clues of what might be next. But I hear unity among the European politicians that she has spoken to today and you know the broader group of governments, they have been remarkably unified to be frank. If Brexit is to happen then this is the best deal on the table. And I think that that is something that people have to understand. People may imagine that things can get better but oh they can also get worse.

CO: But this chaos. This fear and loathing we're watching being played out in the UK right now. The European Union is not immune to that, right? I mean if they have to go out of the union without a deal that's when it comes to that there's no deal --that's not good for Europe either so don't the European nations -- don't they have a vested interest in seeing something concluded here?

MS: Of course. And that's why the deal is supported by 27 governments. And you know nobody thinks that this is an ideal situation -- in fact I believe it's a lose-lose situation. I believe it is painful. So I frankly think there are no good scenarios unfortunately. But given that the people in the UK, in the referendum, have supported Brexit and this is now happening, this is the best deal on the table.

CO: Alright we will be watching Ms. Schaake. Thank you.

MS: You're welcome.

CO: Good night.

MS: Good night.

JD: Marietje Schaake is a member of the European Parliament for the Netherlands. We reached her in Strasbourg, France. And no matter what comes out of her meetings in Europe everyone agrees that Prime Minister Theresa May is in a pickle. She's cornered -- stuck with a white elephant of a deal between a rock and a hard place and the devil and the deep blue sea. Times of London columnist Hugo Rifkind has come up with another analogy for Ms. May's predicament. It involves cheese and a submarine. He explained it all in a thread on Twitter. And we reached him earlier today in a pub where he was eating dinner with his family. He very kindly ducked into the loo and obliged us by reading it.

SOUNDCLIP

HUGO RIFKIND: Here follows a Brexit thread. Sorry. The thing is the best way to understand Theresa May's predictions is to imagine that 52 percent of Britain voted that the government should build a submarine out of cheese. Now, Theresa May was initially against building a submarine out of cheese, obviously. Because it's a completely insane thing to do. However, in order to become PM, she had to pretend that she thought building a submarine out of cheese was fine and could totally work. "Cheese means cheese," she told us all, madly. Then she actually built one. It's [bleep]. Of course it is. For God's sake, are you stupid? It's a submarine built out of cheese. So now, having built a [bleep] cheese submarine, she has to put up with both Labour and Tory Brexiters insisting that a less [bleep] cheese submarine could have been built. They're all lying, and they know it. So does everybody else. We've covered this already, I know, but it's cheese and it's a submarine. How good could it possibly be? Only she can't call them out on this. Because she has spent the last two years also lying, by pretending that she really could build a decent submarine out of cheese. So that's where we are. On balance, I think this analogy works fine, perhaps except for the submarine and cheese parts, which need a little work. Thread ends.

JD: That was Times of London columnist Hugo Rifkind in a pub bathroom reading his now famous Twitter thread on Brexit.

[Music]

Border TV shows

Guest: Josh Paterson

JD: Just a couple of years ago, the show broke the law. But Canadian border agents say that it may soon be back on TV. It is called "Border Security: Canada's Front Line." It is an unscripted show about the interaction between border security agents and the public. Which was cancelled when the federal privacy commissioner found that it violated privacy laws. But now a Canada Border Services Agency spokesperson told the CBC it's "exploring the possibility of renewing the series." That is after the CBC requested documents that showed correspondence about the possible reboot. Josh Paterson is the executive director of the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association -- that is the organization behind the complaint that led to the show being cancelled in the first place. We reached Mr. Paterson in Vancouver.

CO: Mr. Paterson what do you make of reports that the reality TV show 'Border Security: Canada's Front Line' may be making a comeback?

JOSH PATERSON: We're totally disappointed to hear that after years of fighting about this show the government is thinking of bringing it back.

CO: For those who have not seen this program, what is the premise of the show?

JP: Well essentially it's a reality TV show. People may have seen 'Cops' back in the day. It's a show where camera crews follow around border security officers, these are police officers either at airports or at land border crossings, and you get to look in on people's interviews when they're coming across the border -- you get to look in on when people are being questioned. And the way that the show is done you see the first part of the interview at the beginning and they come back like after the commercial break to how it all concluded, so there's an effort to try and build some dramatic tension through the stories of these people to make something that's entertaining for viewers.

CO: And it is very rapidly edited, isn't it? Very quick shots. It moves quite fast. It's well produced. It's got music It's got drama.

JP: Yeah it's a really slick show. It's not something that you would imagine if you were thinking about what a documentary about CBSA's work might look like.

CO: But the people that they are interacting with -- people they're interviewing or stopping or searching, are not actors. They're real people. So are those identities protected in any way?

JP: Well what they did was in some instances they would blur out faces. But the Privacy Commissioner of Canada found that even in those situations it would be easy for someone who knew the person concerned to figure out who they are from their dress, from their circumstance, from the story they're telling, from their possessions etc. So their ID wasn't sufficiently protected. For others they sign a basically a waiver and a consent, and you can see their faces. But the privacy commissioner found that it's really questionable whether or not someone can sign a valid consent in those circumstances -- someone who may be fearing for example deportation, someone who may come from a country where they're afraid of law enforcement and so if someone asks you 'is it okay if my friend here films?' You're going to say yes because you're worried about what will happen if you say no.

CO: And you mentioned the Federal Privacy Commission -- that's where you came before, that commission, to seek the cancellation of this show. And you had a complainant -- you had someone who had gone through this filming, Oscar Mata Duran, I think is his name. Can you tell us what happened to him on the show?

JP: Well he was someone who didn't have documentation to work in Canada and was nevertheless working. CBSA did a raid here in Vancouver on a construction work site and they brought the camera crews along with them. The whole process of him being found and then interrogated was filmed and he was filmed before he had any opportunity to say whether or not he consented. He ultimately wound up being deported. But we along with him filed a complaint because we thought both on his behalf and on behalf of every other traveller, migrant, refugee, claimant undocumented person in Canada -- when you're dealing with law enforcement, you have a right to have those dealings be private. You have a right to have those dealings not be slickly edited together for public entertainment and consumption in that way.

CO: Oscar Mata Duran actually consented -- didn't he sign a consent form to have that information released, right?

JP: That's right. He was given a consent form in English and Spanish and was told it was for the cameras -- nothing else was explained to him the privacy commissioner found as a fact. And the privacy commissioner found that that consent though it was signed wasn't valid because of the circumstances in which it was obtained.

CO: You know that the Canadian Border Service Agency argues that this show is an important educational tool -- and indeed a poll showed that Canadians actually get their information about how the agency works from watching that show, from having watched that show. So what do you make of that argument? Is there not some validity in people learning how these things are done? What goes on behind the scenes?

JP: Well I think it's a great thing when government agencies want the public to understand more about their workings. I don't think that that means that we should then violate the law and violate people's privacy rights by having cameras in anytime you have an interview with a government law enforcement official --having roving camera crews for entertainment purposes or even if they call it educational purposes, peering into people's private lives.

CO: Is there any way of doing it that would work though? In the UK there is a program called 'UK Border Force' and it somehow has not run into the same privacy issues. Do you think there is a way, a responsible way, of putting on a TV show like this?

JP: Well I'm not sure that either the UK or the Australian versions have not run into the same privacy issues -- it may just be that their legislation doesn't allow the same kind of complaint to be made. To be honest could you make a documentary about what CBSA does to inform the public? Probably there's a way to do that. But given that this entire show isn't so much about the operations of CBSA as it is about their interactions with real people. And given that people are in all kinds of unique kinds of vulnerability when they're dealing with law enforcement. Many of your listeners probably know how nervous they feel if they're approaching border guards even if they have done everything perfectly legal. Now imagine if you were a lot more vulnerable and whether or not you'd done something illegal -- you're a refugee claimant, you're hoping to have Canada's protection, you want CBSA to look favourably upon you in one way or another, and then you are asked 'can my film crew film you?' To us it just doesn't seem possible to have a situation where you make this kind of show and you respect people's privacy rights as they're required to do by law.

CO: We will leave it there Mr. Paterson. Thank you.

JP: Thank you.

JD: Josh Paterson is the executive director of the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association. We reached him in Vancouver.

[Music]

Listeners suggest names for temporary Senate building

JD: We appointed you to solve the problem. And we appointed the right people. Parliament Hill is about to undergo a huge 10-year long renovation. Imagine that new kitchen of yours, multiplied by a thousand. The temporary location for the Red Chamber will be a former train station that is now called the Government Conference Centre. But senators believe that name is too bland for them and they have passed a motion expressing their "desire to rename it the Senate of Canada Building." But that name is too bland for us, so we asked you what the Senate's new temporary building should be called. And you flooded our inbox, our Twitter, and Facebook. And here they are. Carol are you ready?

CO: Yeah, go for it.

JD: Legislation Station. The Building of Boring Meetings (or BBM). The Patronage Pit. Red Chamberpot. The Retirement House. Home For The Unelected. Senate McSenateface. Trainy McTrainface. Boaty McBoatFace. Bloaty Mc Bloatface. The Other Place. Granfalloon Station. Former Train Station Building. La gare de seconde pensee. The Sober Second Thoughts Building. The Temporary Terminus of Teetotallers. House of Ill Repute. Hall Of The Useless. The Coca-Cola Centre For Senatorial Filibustering. End Of The Line. [Inhales] Carol your turn.

CO: Alright. The Senatorium. Gravy Train. The Lebreton Home for The Befuddled. The Line 105 Centre -- I don't quite get that one. The Pork Barrel (or as we say here in Newfoundland "Scrunchions"). The Nation Station. The Whip Ship. Hotel Ottawafornia. The Maple Leaf Scrounge. Steve [chuckles] -- just Steve. Moosetracks. Senate House. Ottawa Gas Works. A More Useful Location For The Ottawa Library. Chamber of Snorers. Choo-Choo Chamber. Choo Choo Ch'boogie. The Trough. The Upper Trough. And finally... Sleep Country Canada. [Laughter].

JD: It is hard. It is going to be very hard to pick a favourite. I will say that a number of you thought Senatorium would be a great name. And another popular one was somewhat inexplicably: Boaty McBoatface. Well thank you for all of your suggestions. You can find more on this story in the As It Happens website and we will let you know if we hear back from the government.

[Music]

“The Guardians”

JD: "The Guardians." That is what Time Magazine is calling the group of people celebrated in its 2018 Person of the Year issue. On the Today show this morning Time editor-in-chief, Edward Felsenthal, revealed exactly who had earned that distinction this year and why. Here he is speaking with host Savannah Guthrie and Hoda Kotb.

SOUNDCLIP

EDWARD FELSENTHAL: As we looked at the choices it became clear that the manipulation and abuse of truth is really the common thread in so many of this year's major stories: from Russia, to Riyadh, to Silicon Valley. And so we chose to highlight four individuals and one group who have taken great risks in pursuit of greater truths -- starting with Jamal Khashoggi.

INTERVIEWER 1: Jamal Khashoggi -- yeah. Why did you select him?

EF: Well you know it's interesting this is the first time we've ever chosen someone no longer alive as Person of the Year. But it's also very rare that a person's influence grows so immensely in death. And his murder has prompted a global reassessment of the Saudi Crown Prince and a really long overdue look at the devastating war in Yemen.

INTERVIEWER 2: There were also other journalists on your covers. Tell us about them.

EF: The Capital Gazette in Annapolis, Maryland -- five journalists killed -- in June a gunman apparently aggrieved by the coverage. And the Gazette, one of the oldest papers in America, did what it's done since before the revolution and got a paper out the next day and continues to do so with courage.

INTERVIEWER 1: A couple of other covers may have people Googling saying 'I wonder who these two people are.' Tell us...

EF: Maria Ressa is really an extraordinary individual who has relentlessly pursued the current story in the Philippines -- of course the rise of autocrats around the world one of the major themes of the year, and she has exposed Duterte as a propaganda machine, the extrajudicial killings, and taken on as a result extensive legal -- she's been a legal target in the Philippines, currently under indictment in what many perceive as retribution for her reporting.

INTERVIEWER 2: And a similar story too -- Reuters reporters in Myanmar who are currently in prison.

EF: Two amazing reporters: Wa Lone and Kyaw Soe Oo -- who exposed a mass killing of 10 Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar and are imprisoned actually a year to the day tomorrow as a result of their reporting.

JD: That was Time Magazine's editor-in-chief Edward Felsenthal on NBC's Today show.

[Music]

Part 3: McGill grad jailed in Iran being criminalized for environmental work, says friend

Himalayan climbers

Guest: Steve Aisthorpe

JD: 30 years ago a group of climbing mates in their 20s set off on an expedition to Pumori in the Himalayas. Two of the mountaineers had to give up. The other two, pair of childhood friends from Iceland, continued their climb to the peak, and they were never seen again. Until a couple of weeks ago -- when the remains of Kristinn Runarsson and Thorsteinn Gudjonsson were found at the bottom of a retreating glacier. Steve Aisthorpe was one of their climbing friends on that fateful trip in 1988. We reached Mr. Aisthorpe in Kincraig, Scotland.

CO: Steve did you ever expect that you'd hear news about your friends -- good or bad?

STEVE AISTHORPE: No I don't think I did. I think you know after a few years I thought probably we would never know -- we'd never hear.

CO: It's been 30 years, hasn't it?

SA: Yeah almost 30 years to the day.

CO: So when you heard that the remains had been found. What were your thoughts and feelings?

SA: First of all to be honest I was slightly sceptical -- I wasn't totally sure it would be the remains of my friends. And then once I heard a little bit more about the exact location I realised it almost certainly was. You know it stirred up a lot of emotions from the past. And yet you know as the days have gone on I think I have a sense of things going full circle somehow -- I feel more at peace about it now than I have been.

CO: What was the plan? What was the summit you were trying to climb back in 1988?

SA: So we were trying to climb a mountain called Pumori. It's the kind of daughter peak of Everest I suppose -- it's eight kilometres west of Everest. And I'd been in the same area the year before with one of the friends who later died, Thorsteinn, and we decided there and then we would go back the next year and the hope was that we'd climb the west face of that mountain.

CO: When was last time you saw Kristen and Thorsteinn?

SA: We got past what we thought would be the main difficulties of the climb. We fixed some ropes on that and decided because we were quite tired, we were not very well acclimatized at that point -- we thought we'll go down, have a rest in base camp, and then we'll go back up the ropes and go up to the top. But when we got to base camp I fell ill and so the last time I saw them was when I decided to go down to -- there is a medical post in one of the local villages, so I said goodbye to them as I went to get myself checked out with a doctor. The doctor said well you are going to need at least a week to recover, so I sent a note up to our base camp and said look the weather is good if you guys want to go up to the top, that's fine don't worry about me. We had two Nepali staff who we had employed to look after our base camp and they had been following their progress through a big lens on the camera. And they had watched them make good progress of the face. And then they disappeared from sight behind an ice cliff because that's where that route took them. And they never saw them reappear above that.

CO: So at what point did anyone suspect that something had gone wrong?

SA: Well when I got back to base camp and was told that they still hadn't reappeared I was immediately anxious because one way or another they should have reappeared. We had a kind of a high camp and advanced camp if you like up on the glacier at the bottom of the face. And I went up there kind of hoping and almost expecting that they would be there actually -- I thought maybe you know they had not felt good and they'd retreated and they were back in the camp but it was quite obvious that they hadn't passed by -- you know they had taken their sleeping bags and everything with them. So at that point I thought well the likelihood was that they had fallen. There's a very big crevasse at the bottom of the face and so the next day I went up again and spent some time scanning that big crevasse, I saw no signs of anything at all.

CO: How much of a search was there to find them?

SA: Yeah I mean I certainly searched that first week myself until we got a helicopter and then we searched with the helicopters twice for two weeks we searched as best we could and at that point we gave up and there was absolutely no sign of them at all.

CO: What was that moment like when you had to give up?

SA: I think for me the most difficult moment was the first day I went up and approached that tent up at the advanced camp and I was shouting their names and you just kind of hear it echo around the cliffs there. And then when I unzip the tent and realized there no sign. The next difficult time was when I had to to phone up the families from Kathmandu and explain what happened. So probably the moment at which we gave up the search was probably less significant than those two occasions.

CO: I understand that there was a strange encounter -- a chance encounter with an Australian climber, somebody on a flight that led to a greater understanding of what might have happened.

SA: Yes very strange. Very strange. About a month after I'd left Nepal I got a phone call one night saying that somebody in Australia had claimed that they'd seen Kristinn and Thorsteinn on the summit of Pumori. He was on a flight to Australia. He didn't realize it but he sat next to an Icelandic businessman and just before they landed that businessman got his passport out and the Australian climber looked across and said 'oh I see you are from Iceland. I met some really nice guys from Iceland when I was climbing in Nepal a few weeks ago.' And this businessman actually turned out to be a friend of the father of one of the boys.

CO: Good heavens.

SA: And he said 'oh yeah you know wasn't it sad what happened?' The Australian guy said 'oh why? You know what happened? I didn't hear anything.' The Icelandic gentlemen explained and that was when the Australian said 'oh because I saw them. I saw them on the summit of the mountain.'

CO: I understand that the wife of one of your friends, Kristinn's, she was pregnant at the time, so there is a child who would be 30 years old now.

SA: So he actually went out to Kathmandu for the time when the remains were brought back down. So there was a small group of friends and relatives out there.

CO: Steve I'm glad you have some news of those friends from 30 years ago and I appreciate you telling us this story tonight. Thank you.

SA: Okay pleasure to speak to you Carol.

CO: Take care.

SA: Bye bye.

CO: Bye.

JD: Steve Aisthorpe is a development worker with the Church of Scotland and a former mountaineer. We reached Mr. Aisthorpe in Kincraig, Scotland. And we have posted more on that story on our website cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Sundar Pichai

JD: Today, Google CEO Sundar Pichai was a one man search engine on behalf of his company. He was there to answer questions from the House Judiciary Committee. Today's hearing comes after a Google executive failed to show at a Senate hearing earlier this year. So politicians asked Mr. Pichai about issues like data collection, claims of bias against conservatives, and China. Here is a question from Democratic Rep. David Cicilline.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVID CICILLINE: In September I sent you a letter along with 15 other colleagues raising serious concerns about reports that Google is planning to re-enter the Chinese market with an app based search engine that would likely have to comply with strict censorship and surveillance requirements imposed by the Chinese government. Since then a widespread chorus of opposition to such a move has emerged including from lawmakers, leading human rights activists, and a group of Google's own employees. The environment has deteriorated -- your launching an app in that environment would seem to be completely inconsistent with Google's recently launched AI principles which say you will not design or deploy technologies [inaudible] and I quote "purpose contravenes widely accepted principles of international law and human rights." It's hard for me to imagine you could operate in the Chinese market under the current government framework and maintain a commitment to universal values such as freedom of expression and personal privacy. So I want to ask very specifically, are any employees currently having product meetings on this Chinese project? And if not, when did those end?

SUNDAR PICHAI: We have undertaken an internal effort. But right now there are no plans to launch a search service in China as I said earlier.

DC: Are there any current discussions with any member of the Chinese government on launching this app?

SP: Currently we are not in discussions around launching a search product in China.

DC: Are there any current discussions with members of the Chinese government about this?

SP: You know this effort currently is an internal effort. And you know I'm happy to you know consult as well be transparent to the action we take steps towards launching a product in China.

DC: And who at Google is leading the Dragonfly effort?

SP: It's you know our efforts around building search it's undertaken by our search teams. But these are distributed efforts. It's a limited effort internally currently.

DC: Will you Mr. Pichai rule out launching a tool for surveillance and censorship in China while you are CEO of Google?

SP: Congressman I commit to engaging -- one of the things which is important to us as a company -- we have a stated mission of providing users with information. And so we always -- we think it is in our duty to explore possibilities, to give users access to information. And you know I have that commitment but you know as I said earlier on this we will be very thoughtful and we will engage widely as we make progress.

JD: That was Google CEO Sundar Pichai facing questions at Congress in Washington today.

[Music]

Basel Alzoubi

JD: It has been three years since he arrived as a Syrian refugee and now Basel Alzoubi is studying up for the Canadian citizenship exam.

SOUNDCLIP

BASEL ALZOUBI: I've kept everything here. There's some question. How often are members of parliament elected? Two years, four years, five years, ten years.The answer is 4 years.

JD: Mr. Alzoubi was among the first Syrian refugees to arrive in Canada after the federal government pledged to resettle 25,000 refugees by the end of 2015. Since then Mr. Alzoubi, his wife, and three young children, have made a new life in Ottawa. Having passed the three year residency mark, Mr Alzoubi and other Syrian refugees are now eligible to apply for Canadian citizenship. CBC Ottawa reporter Stu Mills asked Mr. Alzoubi about his hopes for the future.

SOUNDCLIP

BASEL ALZOUBI: My dream like to finish my college -- two years. And I want -- depends on the situation of Syria I will not go there -- just maybe to visit my mom because I miss my mom. I miss my country. So I hopefully something happen good for Syria. But like to be honest with you the future for my kids is here. That's one reason to come to Canada my kids. I think they have good education here, good healthcare here. 6 years old, 4, and 3 years old -- they will be like Canadian. You know?

STU MILLS: What do they want to be when they grow up?

BA: My son he wants to be [trying to figure out word] something... spaceman.

SM: Astronaut.

BA: Astronaut. I said where do you come up this word? [chuckles] I have no idea about this word. But why you choose this? My daughter she want to be a firefighter. I said this is men. She said okay baba I love that.

SM: In Canada there are women who are firefighters.

BA: [Chuckles] I know. But you know like my son, Mousa, he want to be a policeman. I told my son he become dentists, you will get more money. He said daddy I can buy Ferrari? I said you can Lamborghini [laughs].

JD: Basel Alzoubi is a Syrian refugee living in Ottawa currently studying for his Canadian citizenship exam. He was in conversation with CBC Ottawa reporter Stu Mills earlier today.

[Music]

Imprisoned McGill student

Guest: Hayley LaPalme

JD: Years before she ended up in an Iranian prison, Niloufar Bayani was a student of biology at McGill University. She would go on to research wildlife conservation and later did work on the environment for the UN. Then last year Ms. Bayani moved back to Iran where she was born and joined the Persian Wildlife Heritage Foundation. In January however she was arrested along with eight other environmentalists -- one of them was Kavous Seyed-Emami, the Iranian-Canadian who died in prison under unknown circumstances shortly after that arrest. Niloufar Bayani and her colleagues have been charged with national security crimes including "corruption on earth" -- that no offense is punishable by death in Iran. Human rights groups say that she has had extremely limited access to legal counsel and no trial date has been set as of yet. Hayley LaPalme is an environmental educator and a friend of Ms. Bayani. We reached Ms. LaPalme in Toronto.

CO: Hayley when was the last time you saw your friend Niloufar?

HAYLEY LAPALME: I would have last seen Niluofar when she was working in Toronto for the United Nations Environment Programme around 2016 out of the shared coworking space that we both work out of downtown Toronto.

CO: And what sort of work was she passionate about when you worked with her? Before she returned to Iran what was she working on?

HL: She's always been interested in work around environment and conservation. She has a long history of it -- working and studying internationally. You know studying zebra mussels in Montreal, working and doing research on marine life. But most recently when she was in Toronto she was working on a project for UN environment -- developing a course around climate change.

CO: But in Canada she was able to do the kind of work she wanted to do -- in Iran, did she talk about wanting to work as a biologist in Iran?

HL: I know that she had a strong like social responsibility and commitment to environmental work and that she had a real love for her country. I mean it was a love that was contagious and that she passed on to her peers through the sharing that she did. I mean vividly I remember her doing an Iranian cooking class for us -- teaching us a Persian meal that her grandmother had shown her. Niloufar is someone who loves her country, was committed to the environment, and so when I learned that she was doing the work with the Persian Wildlife Heritage Foundation you know it's exactly the kind of work that I would expect her to be doing.

CO: And that's what she -- when she returned to Iran she became part of that Persian Wildlife Foundation. Do you know what work she was doing with them when she was arrested?

HL: It's a conservation organization working to protect biodiversity in Iran. And you know this is something that she would talk about -- the natural heritage, the beauty of her country and that organization worked to preserve that for future generations. And so I think what I have read is that at the time she and her colleagues were arrested they were working on studying species that is endangered the asiatic cheetah.

CO: And there's only I guess just a handful of these animals left in Iran and she was studying that with the Persian Wildlife Foundation is that right?

HL: Yeah that's what I understand.

CO: What did you think when you heard that she had been arrested?

HL: I mean I think the news of her arrest was horrifying to many of her friends and her community back here in Toronto and in Montreal. You know Niloufar is this person who has this lightness, goodness, intelligence, generosity, about her that is really contagious. Like she really brings out the best in people. So to learn that this person who had been like this wonderful presence in our community hear that now she is in prison cells -- I mean it's stunning really.

CO: And she's in Evin prison which is a notorious place where political prisoners are often taken. Do you have any idea how she's doing?

HL: No. We have no real information about how she's doing. We know that the leader of the Persian Wildlife Heritage Foundation whose name is Kavous Seyed-Emami that he died in prison in Tehran shortly after the arrest of Niloufar and her colleagues. And professor Seyed-Emami was an Irania- Canadian scientist. And I think that that news certainly shakes us but we are optimistic and hopeful that our friend is doing okay. I mean Niloufar is an incredibly resilient person and so I mean I think we are just sending her -- you know any strength you can muster across distance. I mean yeah we don't know. All we can do is be optimistic. It's sort of astonishing because I think there are none of us who have any doubt that there were no political motives to the work that she was doing. I mean it is inconsistent with Niloufar's whole history. I mean she is a scientist and an environmentalist. And so the idea that she is facing capital charges when she's doing work on conservation of endangered asiatic cheetahs is horrifying.

CO: I guess what we've understood is that because they had to put up cameras in order to track these cheetahs that that was the reason why the authorities say well they were spying on secrets and not looking at cheetahs and that's why they were arrested in Iran. Just as a fellow environmentalists do understand how delicate it is I guess to do this kind of work?

HL: Yeah. And I think that what we have read -- and just recently been a letter coming out from 132 conservationists globally led by Jane Goodall and they have made a stand and asked for the fair trial and release of Niloufar. And they have made the case that these camera traps that her group were using are standard practice or a standard tool for wildlife monitoring and they're being used all across the world. And so I mean really I think we are seeing a situation where environmental and conservation work that is a key part of a modern thriving society is being criminalized. And as I understand it the Iranian government itself has said that the charges that were laid by the Revolutionary Guard are unfounded. I mean this came out in an article in The Guardian earlier. And so it feels like without fully understanding the politics in the region but that our friend is caught in a political power struggle.

CO: If you could speak to Niloufar, if you could talk to your friend at this point, what would you say to her?

HL: I would let her know that her friends and her community in Canada see the work that she's doing and that her colleagues are doing and that we're here in solidarity with her. I assume she has some understanding of there being a risk in doing this work in Iran and the fact that she courageously pursues her principles around this is something that I want her to know that we see and we value and we will continue to fight to defend the ability to practice that kind of conservation and science globally.

CO: Hayley thank you so much.

HL: My pleasure.

CO: Alright Bye bye.

HL: Bye bye.

JD: Hayley LaPalme is a friend of Niloufar Bayani a conservation biologist and a graduate of McGill University who was arrested in Iran in January of this year. We reached Ms. LaPalme in Toronto.

[Music]

Fax

[Fax machine sound]

JD: In 1843, Scottish inventor Alexander Bain received a patent for the very first fax machine. Now we don't know what he's sent in that very first fax. Possibly, a picture of a butt. And we don't know what will be sent in the last fax ever sent. But we know that that day just got a lot closer. The day when someone will tearfully listen to that haunting screech whisper goodbye -- and fax the very last picture of a butt. This week British Health Secretary Matt Hancock made a bold announcement -- as of January of 2019 his country's National Health Service will not buy any more fax machines. And as of April 2020, the NHS will no longer be allowed to use fax machines at all. In a statement Mr. Hancock proclaimed "the NHS can be the best in the world and we can start with getting rid of fax machines." Well stand down Matt Hancock. I mean yes -- yes it's true that earlier this year a report found that almost 9,000 fax machines were still in use across the NHS which is probably too many by a lot. And no they're not quite the latest in technology. And no they are not necessarily the most secure method of sending medical records in the 21st century. But let's just slow down here okay -- and just... let's think about this for a second. You draw something on a piece of paper -- say a butt. And then through the magic of technology or just magic, I don't know, that exact picture of a butt emerges from a machine halfway around the world. Come on, British Health Secretary! It is a miracle. So go ahead. De-fax your hospitals. But don't just dismiss a machine that has brought such joy. That is not just a mistake -- that is a serious fax pas.

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December 11, 2018 Episode Transcript

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