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The AIH Transcript for November 28, 2018

Hosts: Susan Bonner and Jeff Douglas

SUSAN BONNER: Hello, I’m Susan Bonner, sitting in for Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

JD: Tonight:

SB: Heated baby talk. A Chinese scientist says he's proud to have created genetically-engineered twins, but a doctor who questioned him at a conference today says he questions the whole process.

JD: Pressed into service. For more than a month now, one church in the Netherlands has been holding a non-stop service to protect a family of refugees — because Dutch law prohibits police from entering while prayers are underway.

SB: He wrote in — and about — the margins. Author and anti-poverty activist Harry Leslie Smith dies at 95. And his son reflects on the legacy he plans to carry on.

JD: It took 38 minutes for anyone to notice that 14-year-old Blessing Moukoko had drowned. Now, his mother says she's suing the school board — and the city of Montreal.

SB: Tiptoe around The Tulip. Sometimes a skyscraper is just a skyscraper — but, as in the case of a proposed high-rise in London called "The Tulip", sometimes it looks an awful lot like...uh, a cigar.

JD: And...a load of bull. Well, technically, "Knickers" is an Australian steer, but he is massive. So much so that it hasn't just made him an international celebrity — it's saved him from slaughter.

JD: "As It Happens", the Wednesday edition. Radio that guesses the situation — and Knickers himself — could have been extremely high steaks.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Gene editing controversy, Harry Leslie Smith obit

Gene editing controversy

Guest: Matthew Porteus

JD: The researcher who claims he helped created the first genetically-edited babies says he's proud of his work. He Jiankui spoke today at a human genome editing conference in Hong Kong about the twins, Lulu and Nana. And he said there may be a third child — genetically-edited to prevent HIV infection — on the way.

SOUNDCLIP

MATTHEW PORTEUS: He said that there's been no other implantations, but just to be clear, are there any current pregnancies with embryos that have been genome-edited as part of your clinical trials?

HE JIANKUI: There is another one, but it tend to matter. There's another potential pregnancy.

MP: I think it's you said a very early stage. So it's a chemical pregnancy.

HJ: Yes.

MP: If this was going to be your baby, would you have gone ahead with this?

HJ: OK, that's good. So if my baby may have the same situation, I would've tried first.

JD: That was Chinese researcher He Jiankui, speaking at a conference in Hong Kong earlier today. He also said he did the gene-editing — which banned in most countries, including China — on his own, without the knowledge of his university in Shenzhen. Dr. Matthew Porteus was at the conference. You heard him just now questioning Professor He on stage. We reached DR. Matt Proteus in Hong Kong.

SB: Dr. Porteus, how would you describe what this researcher has done?

MP: I think, first of all, it's surprising. But I think the overall assessment that many of us have is that it's been irresponsible. There have over the last several years been numerous statements from national bodies — including China — stating that if one were to create a pregnancy using a genome-edited embryo, multiple criteria would need to be met. And he really failed to meet any of these guidelines. Perhaps the most concerning thing about what he did is the lack of transparency and the almost overt secrecy in which he did something that has a profound impact on not just the parents and children that he is working with but on China and humanity.

SB: Can you explain that?

MP: Well, if his claims are proven to be true, and I think we need to have independent verification, but what it means is he has brought somebody into the world for the first time whose DNA was genetically modified by human hands prior to birth. And this is a line that many felt we should never cross. As I mentioned, there were some guidelines to say when this might happen. But for now, he has not met those guidelines.

SB: What were the guidelines?

MP: They include that there was lack of alternatives. And in this case, there was. It should only be done for a serious disease. And what he did was not for a serious disease. And then his execution of what he calls a clinical protocol was really substandard. He did not have a consent that had been reviewed. He did not actually consent the patients in a way that is consistent with the standards of clinical trials in China, the United States, in Europe, and the rest of the world.

SP: When Professor He spoke today about this gene-editing work, and he stood up before the conference and tried to make his case, you were there. What was your impression? How was he received? Did he allay any concerns of yours or the room?

MP: I think the room was very respectful of his right to be able to explain as you say to advocate for his case. There was there was tension in the room because of the claim that was being made. But I would say the overall feeling was quite negative. We, and I think many people in the room, were really hoping to hear a compelling argument about why he did this in such a secretive way. And I think many, many people, in the end, felt like he had not provided that argument. And are very disappointed that again, if this claim is true, that this is how the process occurred as much as it did occur.

CO: His argument that he did this to help prevent HIV in these babies the couples involved had fathers who were HIV-positive. Is that a valid justification?

MP: I think we really believe it's not a valid justification. The risk of transmission from father to child, particularly using in vitro fertilization, using washed sperm as Dr. He did, is minuscule. So this is really not a justification for what he did. And the gene that he modified — the CCR-5 gene — which he broke and mutated is a gene that for greater than 99 per cent of people on Earth — probably closer to 99.9 per cent on Earth — it is a functional gene that probably has importance as our immune systems deal with many infections around the world.

SB: So what are the risks then of tampering with this gene?

MP: The risk is that he has now created children who maybe be susceptible to infections that are unknown. We do know — and he mentioned in his talk — that there are a small number of people in the world who do have an activation of this gene. But those people are very rare, and they primarily live and live and come from a certain part of the world. And so while it may be safe if you live in northern Europe, where these people seem to come from, we don't know that it's safe for somebody who lives in Southern China, for example.

SB: What do you think is going to happen now to Professor He and to the families he's been working with?

MP: Well, as a pediatrician myself, for the family and the children, of course, we have to provide the best care and follow up that they deserve. They really should be considered completely regular humans and treated exactly that way. I think what's going to happen to Dr. He remains to be seen. What the Chinese authorities decide to do in their investigation is beyond my knowledge. But, of course, we will follow along. I think what will happen within the broader scientific community is that unless Dr. He begins to become more transparent in what he has done and more open to feedback about what he has done, he is likely to become a scientific pariah.

SB: What does this tell us about where we are at with this technology? What can of worms has this opened? Does it tell us that this kind of technology is just impossible to regulate?

MP: That is something that we are concerned about. Clearly, this shows that at least one actor behaving what we hope is on his own did not pay attention to the norms and guidelines and discussions that were out there. And because of this, it does make us think about what needs to be done to prevent something like this from happening in the future. Genome editing of somatic cells to treat serious disease is an extremely promising approach for patients. And there is little to no belief that is something that should not be done. That is we believe that is an exciting new way to treat patients with serious disease. And one of the other risks of what Dr. He did is that there will be a blowback that tarnishes not only the use of genome editing that he did to modify embryos but it will cause problems in developing genome editing of somatic cells — cells that will not move on to the next generation, and perhaps slow the development of new therapies for patients. And we really hope that there is not a backlash because of that.

SB: Dr. Porteus, thank you very much for your time and your insight.

MP: Thank you.

SB: Bye bye.

MP: Bye bye.

JD: Dr. Matthew Porteus is a professor of pediatrics at Stanford University who researches genome editing. We reached him in Hong Kong. You can hear more about this story on Saturday on “Quirks & Quarks”, as they delve into the reaction from the bioethics community, and what Dr. He's work might mean for research into genetic editing of embryos here in Canada.

[Music: Rock]

Notely oil

JD: Alberta has oil to move. And if the federal government won't help — the province will move it itself. That was the message from Alberta premier Rachel Notley today in Ottawa. In the midst of falling prices, and a lack of pipeline capacity, Premier Notely announced her government is buying rail cars to transport oil to markets that will pay more for it. Here is part of Ms. Notely's Q and A session with reporters after her announcement.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: We have an 80-million tonne crop that needs to move on the rails. We have a shortage of locomotives already. Are you not concerned about a rail capacity crunch when you're adding a thousand oil cars to the line?

RACHEL NOTELY: Well, we definitely know that is the issue, so we're talking about buying and building and contracting new ones. That's what we're looking at as we talk about this. And we've been in very detailed conversations with both CN and CP as we go forward. As we deal with the delays that we are seeing on pipelines, we cannot sustain — and the economy cannot sustain — and I'm not just talking about Alberta's economy. I am definitively talking about the Canadian economy. We cannot sustain a ten dollar a barrel price for Western Canadian Select. The federal government needs to understand that this too is a crisis, and that this too is an area in which they have agency. When we talk about moving economic products — in this case oil — over provincial borders, then obviously it's a matter for the federal government as well. And the failure to be able to do that well has resulted in us receiving ten dollars a barrel for something that is trading of elsewhere at over fifty dollars a barrel.

JD: That was Alberta premier Rachel Notley speaking to reporters in Ottawa, after announcing the purchase of rail cars to transport Alberta oil to market.

[Music: Ambient]

Harry Leslie Smith obit

Guest: John Smith

JD: Harry Leslie Smith called himself the "world's oldest rebel". And he lived up to the title. Until his final days, he rebelled, he fought for his causes. He fought for solutions to the refugee crisis and poverty, and robust social programs. Mr. Smith died early this morning. He was ninety-five years old. He lived through the Great Depression, and was a veteran of the Second World War. But it was in retirement that Harry Leslie Smith rose to prominence, becoming a best-selling author at 91, with his memoir "Harry's Last Stand". He also wrote for the Guardian. A video essay of his about the refugee crisis got more than two million views. Here's part of that essay, from 2016.

SOUNDCLIP

HARRY LESLIE SMITH: Last November, I traveled to Cali to see it's the jungle for myself. I met those refugees seeking entry into Britain. And a life free from the walls of their homelands. It wasn't a pretty place, and it reminded me sadly too much of how the world looks seventy-one years ago, when Europe still smoldered from the dying flames of the Second World War. Like then, the people in the jungle’s lives have been shorn of hearth, home, and kin. Today, however, politicians in Britain have turned their back on humanity, which is as brutal as averting your eyes from a sinking ship.

JD: That was Harry Leslie Smith in 2016. Mr. Smith died early this morning. For the last week, his son, John, has been by his side at a Belleville, Ontario hospital, sharing updates on his dad's condition. We reached John Smith in Belleville.

SB: John, my condolences on the loss of your father.

JOHN SMITH: Thank you very much. Watching him die was like watching a beautiful exotic species go extinct.

SB: You've been there at his bedside for a week, keeping vigil. What have the final days been like?

JS: They've been despairing. I knew it was coming, and I knew that yesterday would be his last. And he made those decisions, and he said it is irrevocable. And so I followed his directives, which were to just give comfort until he died.

SB: And you were able to communicate with him through most of it.

JS: Well, for the first couple of hours and then what happens is you become heavily sedated, so he became unconscious. Now I held his hand for ten hours, and it was a strong grip. So I believe he was aware that I was there with him. But for the first couple of hours, he was aware, and I was able to get him a beer because he was dreadfully thirsty because he had had an order of nil by mouth for many days. And so that we were able to give him a beer so that he would actually have some sort of taste in his mouth. He was very happy by that. And also, just before he lost consciousness, I was able to get a video clip from London where Owen Jones — a great labour activists and political writer — had held a rally for Harry, and they were chanting “We stand with you Harry, we stand with you”, and then shouting out hip hip hooray. And I could play it to him, and I hadn't seen him smile like that in days. He was very happy and content, and I was very pleased because then he lost consciousness.

SB: Your father was a remarkable activist in his own right. And he really catapulted to prominence in the last decade of his life. What was it that inspired him to begin writing in retirement?

JS: Well, I think what it was that the 2008-2009 banking crisis stirred in him memories of the Dirty Thirties, of the crash of Wall Street, of the great austerity that swept over Britain, where he lived in Canada, and the United States. And he saw a repeat of this for the same reasons, which were that he thought that it was the greed of the 1 per cent — their myopia. And that they were going to effectively destroy the social welfare state to feed their own interests. And that's why he started writing to warn people that he had already seen this.

SB: And he was also in the last few years so active on the refugee file, and the crisis facing refugees. And he went personally to refugee camps like the one in Cali. What was he thinking that he wanted to go there personally?

JS: The amazing thing is that refugees are generally very young people. And that he was showing them that he was a bridge to history. And telling them when I was a young man, I remember a similar refugee crisis. And then the world took notice and took action. And this is what we have to do again. And he told them not to despair. I'll tell you the most amazing thing is when Harry was more or less on his deathbed, the Minister of Citizenship and Refugees came to visit him to thank him. But Harry was there still advocating for refugees and telling him there is not enough time; we must do more. And this is just several days before he died. And that's how strongly he believes that this refugee crisis is just as dire as the one that he saw in 1945. And that if no action is taken, there will be terrible repercussions not only for refugees but for civilized states everywhere.

SB: And when he made that case, he talked about how it brought back his own memories of World War II. Can you tell me in what way?

JS: Yeah, at the end of the war — while he was travelling with his unit through Belgium, Holland, and into Germany — he encountered refugees in their thousands trying to flee the cauldron of war. And they were in horrible states. They were coming from liberated concentration camps, and looking for a safe place to harbour themselves. It just upset him so much to see so much suffering, and especially with young children. And that he always in his unit and every other unit that he knew of would go out of their way to try to feed them and make sure that they were safe. And this is what he was demanding of today's people.

SB: And today, in these days, he is an old man now. His talks though are packed to the gills with young people. What is it that you think drew all of these young people — the younger generation — to listen to this old man?

JS: Well, number one is that he comes from the greatest generation. They're millennials. They're not going to blame him for again the myopia and greed of the baby boomer generation, which I belong to, and that he was something that was a shining example. And he also told them that he believed that the Millennials will be the 21st century's greatest generation because he said that they had the same gumption as his generation and that they will affect change for the good, and hopefully, fix things better than his generation did. So that the next time we reconstruct a social welfare state, it will be for the many and not the few.

SB: What do you think it meant for him personally to see young people connect with him in that way?

JS: He was absolutely energized by it. He felt relevant. It gave him so much energy, and it gave him so much joy to think that you know I am this man that is almost 100 years-of-age, but I can talk to 18-year-olds, 20-year-olds, 30-year-olds, and they want to talk to me. And we are speaking the same language.

SB: What was it that brought him to Canada?

JS: Well, it was some job changes that he came to Canada for. But also, because him and my mother wanted a start in a new country — a country that was filled with hope and opportunity, and wasn't carrying the baggage of Europe. And that's why they chose Canada. Both my mother and Harry always thought that the best thing that ever happened to them was to become new Canadians.

SB: You know for the last week or so, so many people have been following the very public story of Harry Leslie Smith. But what was he like as a dad?

JS: He was fantastic. He was a beautiful person, a very kind person, understanding. He never looked askance at any of his children or any of the decisions that we made. He would always defend us. Not only that he loved to laugh and he loved to have a good time. He was just a very good man that wanted to make sure that all of his children were protected, and that he could give them a very nice life. And he did.

SB: And then at the end of his life, so much love and appreciation was pouring in almost hourly — I was following this on Twitter myself — from around the world. What do you think that meant to him?

JS: I think it gave him great pleasure because there were times when he wasn't sure. He said to me do you think I've done anything that matters? Speaking about our odyssey that we've taken over the last nine years. I said of course, right? And then to be able to show him when he became ill all of the love and affection that he got, I think it gave him a sense that yes, he had done the right thing. He kept his pledge.

SB: Yeah. What a gift and. And just after 4:00 this morning, you tweeted “I know exactly what my steps are. I will follow in his footsteps. I will endeavour to finish his projects.”

JS: Yes, we had talked about this when he was well. And he had urged me because we were partners in this entire endeavor. And he asked me to continue it on if he should ever become ill or die. Because he did not want his legacy to disappear as people forget his life.

SB: What's one of the first things that that you'll try to do?

JS: Well, the first thing that I'll try to do over the next couple of weeks is I'm going to probably fly out to the migrant caravan in Mexico, and start using his social media platforms to highlight what I'm seeing in memory of Harry, and reminiscing about Harry and what Harry saw through these things. Because I was very privileged that Harry was more than my dad: he was my friend. And we confided in each other about everything. So I pretty well know most of his life much — more so than anybody else. So that is my first job that I will be going off to either the refugees in the migrant caravan down in Mexico, or I'll be flying off into Europe to visit there.

SB: It's an incredible gift that he's given you.

JS: I know. I'm very appreciative. I'm honoured, and so proud of him, and I love him so much. I know I'm a very lucky man to have had him as a dad, and as a friend, and as a comrade, and as a partner. And the last nine years, I couldn't have asked for anything better than that because we had a relationship that few fathers and sons will ever have.

SB: Well, thanks for sharing him and your story with us.

JS: Thank you so much.

SB: All the best.

JS: Thank you. Bye bye.

JD: John Smith is the son of activist and writer, Harry Leslie Smith. We reached John Smith in Belleville, Ontario. Harry Leslie Smith died early this morning. He was 95 years old. In 2014, Mr. Smith was invited to speak before the Labour Party Conference in Manchester, England. He was introduced as a historian of the Great Depression — and he spoke in passionate defence of the National Health Service, or NHS. Here's an edited version of that speech.

SOUNDCLIP

HLS: I came into this world in the rough and ready 1923. I'm from Barnsley, and I can tell you that my childhood, like so many others from that era, was not like an episode from “Downton Abbey”. Instead it was a barbarous time. It was a bleak time. And it was an uncivilized time because public health care didn't exist. No one in our community was safe from poor health, sickness, and disease. In our home, TB came for my eldest sister, Marian. Tuberculosis tortured my sister, and left her an invalid that had to be restrained with ropes tied around her bed. My parents did everything in their power to keep Marian alive and comfortable. But they just didn't have the dosh to get her the best lineage, find her the best doctors, or the right medicines. Instead, she wasted away before our eyes until my mother could no longer handle her care, and she was dispatched to the workhouse infirmary where she died at the age of ten — 87 years ago. Mum and Dad couldn't afford to bury their darling daughter. So like the rest of our country's indigent, she was dumped nameless into a pit. My family's story isn't unique. Sadly, rampant poverty and no health care were the norm for the Britain of my youth. That injustice galvanized my generation to become, after the Second World War, the tide that raised all boats. Election Day in 1945 was one of the proudest days in my life. I felt that I was finally getting a chance to grab destiny by the shirt collar. And that is why I voted Labour, and for the creation of the NHS. We must never ever let the NHS free from our grasp — because if we do, your future will be my past. I am not a politician, a member of the elite, or a financial guru. But my life is your history, and we should keep it that way.

JD: That was Harry Leslie Smith, speaking in defense of public healthcare at the Labour Party Conference in Manchester, England, in 2014. Mr. Smith died early this morning in Belleville, Ontario. He was 95 years old. We have more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Piano]

Part two: Church service refugees, huge steer

Church service refugees

Guest: Derk Stegeman

JD: At a church in the Hague, a prayer service has now been running 24-hours-a-day, 7-days-a week, for over a month. The marathon of prayer is an effort to buy time for a family of Armenian refugees who've sought asylum inside. The Tamrazyans were due to be deported when they arrived at the Bethel International Church in late October. But under Dutch law, police are prohibited from entering a church while prayers are underway. So Derk Stegeman and his colleagues began to pray. Mr. Stegeman is a pastor at the church. We reached him in The Hague.

SB: Pastor Stegeman, your well over 700 hours into this church service now. How are you holding up?

DERK STEGEMAN: Well, that's a good question. And the only answer is that we are not doing it on our own. We started with a small group, and it was a secret that we prepared this service. But when we had started it and we asked for help, we were overwhelmed by enormous movement in our church. In fact, untill now, more than 400 — almost 450 — pastors from all over the country have been helping us. They have been coming from their churches also with people from their communities, and prepared services to help them in our church.

SB: How does it work?

DS: Well, there is not one recipe. It’s just one pastor coming after another. And they put themselves on the schedule online. And they put themself one, two, three, sometimes even five or six hours for service. And they prepare the service, and come with it sometimes with a group, sometimes with a choir, sometimes with music, sometimes with mantras.

SB: And sometimes overnight.

DS: Well, it's 24/7.

SB: How is the family of refugees? How are they doing?

DS: They are doing well. They are doing a great job. They are participating in the service. They live in the church for almost five weeks now. For them, it's also sort of a job in fact to be there to speak with people. People are also curious to meet them. So it's also sometimes heavy; it's a burden. And the most important thing for them is that they are quite uncertain about their future, and that's also cause for stress for uncertainty.

SB: What's their response to so many people signing up to help?

DS: Well, they are very glad with it, thankful, and they are participating. In the first week, they sometimes said to me that it's not necessary to do all this for us. And I answered always, but we are not doing that for you. We are doing it to show to ourselves, and to our community, to our government that civilization and love in life and in civilization it's not by expelling people, expelling children who have been living here for ten years. So we are trying to prove that it that it can be different.

SB: And how do you think you're doing?

DS: Well, I think we touched something. And because so many people are responding, are joining, and are telling us that they are so deeply touched by what we started. So I think we did intuitively quite well to start the service like this. And it's a little bit like a movement in our church about the core of our belief, the core of our being church.

SB: But what response have you had from the government?

DS: Yes, there was a response. We started the churches service also to create a time and room for the family to stay in the Netherlands. Time to be in contact with the government, to have a dialogue about the future for this family, and also about the situation for a lot of families who are in similar situations waiting for a status or anxious about it. And we are in the midst of this dialogue with our government. And about the dialogue itself, I cannot tell anything.

SB: Is the family — the Tamrazyans — are they still slated to be deported?

DS: Let's say the situation has not been changed yet say. They are on the list to be to be deported to their country, yes. But the government will respect the church because it's based on an article in Dutch law that says that the police may not enter a church building during a service. So the services is quite long, but it's still continuing. So the family feels safe in the church, but it's not possible we think to stop the service now. And we are not pessimistic. We are not optimistic. But we have really hope that there will be a perspective.

SB: But if the government does not take the family off the deportation list, how long can you keep this going?

DS: Well, we don't know that. We do not fear the question either. For now, when I look how the schedule is always complete or almost complete, and is completing by pastors all over the country putting their names on it. I do not fear that we cannot uphold this service. What I fear more is the situation about the family about themselves. And if they are in a position to manage this and to continue with it is then we will be in a position as well to continue.

SB: So you're more worried about how the family can endure this than you are whether you can fill all the slots in a 24/7 operation?

DS: For us it's a big job, but it's also a fruitful experience. And there's a lot of joy and a lot of people are meeting one another. But for the family, it's really heavy all that uncertainty about the future.

SB: Well, thank you so much for telling us about this, and good luck.

DS: Well, thank you very much.

SB: Goodbye.

DS: Goodbye.

JD: Derk Stegeman is a pastor at the Bethel International Church. We reached him in The Hague. For more on the Tamrazyans and that epic church service, including photographs, check out our website: www.cbc.ca/aih. In the meantime, this is from a video posted by one of the Tamrazyans, here's a few seconds of that ongoing church service.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Singing]

JD: Just A few moments from the church service that's been going on for more than a month — 24/7 — in The Hague.

[Music: Horns]

Amanda Simard

JD: The headlines were all about Amanda Simard being muzzled. Ms. Simard is the only Franco-Ontarian in Doug Ford's Progressive Conservative caucus. She had wanted to take part in a debate about her government's cuts to French-language services in the province. But the party brass said it had already given all its speaking spots to Anglophones. The PCs that did speak addressed issues that were of province-wide importance — like the really nice French teacher that one MP had in fourth grade. Ms. Simard, however, did not give up. After repeated attempts, the speaker did finally gave her a chance to share her thoughts on her own party's moves. She began in French. This is from the live translation.

SOUNDCLIP

AMANDA SIMARD: [Speaking: French]

TRANSLATION: The government wants to take away these institutions, and this is a very big mistake.

AS: For the Office of the Commissioner, there are no real savings information. Maybe because, from what we can understand, there aren't no real savings. Franco-Ontarians are an official minority group, and the only rights we have provincially are in the French Language Services Act. Having a standalone independent commissioner is a necessity, not a sign of largesse. Franco Ontarians are not asking for additional rights or services. We're asking that the existing protections and entities remain in place. I think it's a very modest and reasonable ask. For the Francophone university, this was a promise made, a promise reconfirmed, and a promise not kept. As many have pointed out, this is an investment that comes at a minimal cost. But that will generate significant economic return. Regardless, the jurisprudence clearly states that economic arguments cannot justify infringing official language minorities rights to essential institutions. The nearly 700 Franco-Ontarians in all parts of the province are overwhelmingly furious with these two items in the fall economic statement. And with reason — because neither measure will contribute in any meaningful way to restoring sanity in our province's finances. Rather, both measures are viewed as negative and illogical ones against a minority community. This is not just about Franco-Ontarians. This is about official language minority communities across Canada, including Quebec's Anglophones. [Speaking: French]

TRANSLATION: Our language is our identity. We live in French. Generations who preceded us worked so hard to get to this. And we are always forced to protect our rights.

JD: That was Ontario Progressive Conservative MPP Amanda Simard, at Queens Park, denouncing her own government's actions towards Franco-Ontarians.

[Music: Ambient]

Huge steer

Guest: Geoff Pearson

JD: The world's gone mad for big Knickers. I'm not talking about giant underpants. I'm talking about a 7-year-old steer of the species Holstein Friesian named Knickers. A steer who is — and I wouldn't say this to his face — so large as to be hilarious. Knickers lives on a farm in Western Australia, where he towers over the rest of the herd. He weighs more than a hatchback car. And photographs of him next to other cows has captivated the world. Maybe that makes him uncomfortable. But if Knickers is at all self-conscious of his size, he shouldn't be: it's the only reason he's around today. Geoff Pearson owns Knickers. He's in Myalup, Western Australia.

SB: Mr. Pearson, how big is this steer called Knickers.

GEOFF PEARSON: Yeah, knickers allegedly is one metre-nine-hundred-and-four-centimetres.

SB: Yeah, that gets noticed.

GP: Mhmm. Absolutely.

SB: How much does he weigh?

GP: He's around about that one-point-four-tonne. About 1,400 kilos.

SB: Where did you get him?

GP: He was bought with a line of Friesian steers that we buy annually every year. And yeah, he come from a dairy farm in the south west of Western Australia.

SB: And when you got him, did you pick him because of his size?

GP: Yeah, he was always a standout steer. And he always stood out from the rest of the pack, so I didn't choose him for his size. It's just that he was just a recognizable steer over time.

SB: What did you feed him to get him this big?

GP: What did we feed him? Well, we hangs around a lot of weaners. And the weaners are supplementary fed pretty much all the time. And he's usually the coach for the weaners. But he's also got access to their feed as well. So I'm guessing Knickers has speant a fair bit of time eating what the weaners would normally be eating. So therefore, he's been supplemented to his benefit.

SB: I need to clear something up. you say he spends a lot of time with the weaners? I think we might have a different interpretation of that here in North America. What is that?

GP: Weaners are young calves. Young calves that have been weaned from their mothers. We use Knickers as a coach. So what happens is that normally the weaners are used to following their mother around. Well, they don't anymore; they follow Knickers around.

SB: So this quite tall steer is also a leader?

GP: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. When we want these weaners to come into the yard, we point Knickers in the right direction, and away they go.

SB: And I have seen the photo, and I'm not sure we're conveying accurately how big this steer is.

GP: Yeah okay, he’s with animals in the photo that are probably around about sort of three-quarters grown. So they've stood a little bit more growing to do. But yeah, still you know once those animals are fully grown that around him in the photo, he would still be a standout steer.

SB: Yeah, standout. Stand tall above all the others.

GP: Stand tall. Yeah, for sure.

SB: I understand that Knickers was to be sold — was to go to market — but he was given a reprieve. What happened?

GP: Yeah. What happened is that we've got some issues with drought on the east coast of Australia at the moment. And what we thought we would put him into a good news story and we were going to offer him to our to our local shop, of which he would be auctioned off, and that the proceeds were to go to drought relief. And we made some inquiries in regards to who would buy them at auction because he would have to go into the processing sector. And three or four establishments weren't able to process him because of his sheer weight. So, unfortunately, he didn't make the auction and Knickers lives on. But from that he's gained some fairly serious recognition.

SB: Well, let's be clear about what the processing plant is.

GP: Yes, so processing is sending him to meat production. So he would be slaughtered and the process would have gone through to the drought relief. So, unfortunately, that didn't happen because he just didn't fit the system. He was just simply too big to process.

SB: Well, so in his case, size mattered.

GP: Yeah, exactly. Yep, yep, Knickers lives on.

SB: How did he get his name, Knickers?

GP: Good question. In his early days, he had a Brahman steer breed, and he grew up with him over time. And we never had a name for Knickers. But because the Brahman steer had a name of a Bra, we decided to call Knickers Knickers — Bra and Knickers. So that's where his name derived from.

SB: And in the photo that I mentioned, you see him towering, dwarfing, the other cows, and you and you talk about him standing tall. Does he have a similarly imposing personality?

GP: Yeah, he does. You know, he's not an approachable animal, but he's not an animal that that flighty or anything like that. I mean you can get very close to him. He still has you know his zone. But yeah, as an animal, he's a bit of a loner. But he's always got a crowd around him. So I think he's fairly well recognized within his within his area, and he holds his own.

SB: To be clear, Knickers isn't a bull meant for breeding.

GP: No, that's right. Yeah, so in his early days, he would have been castrated. So therefore he's not a not a breeding animal, no. What I might add is that, which would be interested to your listeners, is that you know we use a lot of Holstein bloodlines over here, which is Canadian bloodlines. So potentially he could be very close to your area and the Canadian Holstein breeding.

SB: Interesting. But his genes won't be passed on?

GP: His genes won’t be passed on. But his genetics have come from further afield, I would imagine.

SB: What do you think about all the attention Knickers is getting?

GP: Yeah look, I just thought yeah look, we'll just get a bit of you know statewide recognition for him, and then it’s sort of gone nationally, and now I've been talking to several different countries over the last 12 to 24 hours. So yeah, I don't know where it's going to stop, but I've touched half the world anyway.

SB: Well, it was good to talk to you, and to hear about Knickers.

GP: Okay. Pleasure.

SB: Thanks so much.

JD: Geoff Pearson is the manager of Lake Preston and Knickers's owner. We reached him in Myalup, Western Australia. You can see Knickers, the very large steer, on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Guitar]

Quote/Unquote: London tower

JD: And now, Quote/Unquote.

[Music: Quote/Unquote theme]

JD: For 15 years, the building known as "The Gherkin" has been a prominent bulge in the London skyline. And now, it may be joined by a second architectural erection: The Tulip. The Gherkin was designed by the renowned British architect Norman Foster. It's a shiny, ultra-modern commercial skyscraper. It's also distinctly phallic. But over time, it's been surrounded by tall buildings. So it no longer protrudes so boldly. Last week, a new building was proposed — one that would stand right next to The Gherkin. It's also a Norman Foster design. And it's also distinctly phallic. It is "The Tulip": a skyscraper topped with a sort of glass egg that would stretch 305 metres into the air. Among its many features would be — to quote from the proposal — "sky bridges, internal glass slides and gondola pod rides on the building's facade that will appeal to people across all age groups." Well, thus far, the building isn’t itself appealing to adults on the internet, in any case. Including the Guardian's architecture and design critic, Oliver Wainwright. You can tell just from his description that he finds The Tulip ridiculous. Now a quick note: a "coconut shy" is a carnival game where you try to knock a coconut off a stick. Now, from Mr. Wainwright's article, quote, "The architects may have been aiming for a tulip, but the structure is more reminiscent of a coconut shy, or an egg perched at the top of an etiolated egg-cup. The structural spoons, meanwhile, have the inescapable look of obstetrical forceps, brandishing the freshly extracted Gherkin baby towards the clouds." Unquote.

[Music: Instrumental]

Part three: Drowning lawsuit, Chau body retrieval, Toronto medical student

AIH AMA

JD: Do you ever have questions that you’re itching to ask while you're listening to “As It Happens"? Well, now you can ask them directly to our faces, instead of into your radio or your listening devices, which tend not to answer. Next Friday — December 7th — Carol Off and I will be on stage in the Glenn Gould Studio in Toronto to answer your questions. It's part of the "Sounds of the Season" event. It's called "Ask Me Anything". Carol and I would have been a little more comfortable with "Ask Us Anything Within Reason", but we’re not in charge. In any case, send us your queries. If we use yours, we'll send you some very sweet “As It Happens” swag. There are a bunch of ways to ask us. If you're in Toronto, you can be in the audience. Our show starts at 10am. If you can't make it to the Toronto Broadcasting Centre, you can still be part of our virtual audience, and livestream the show on Facebook. What do you want to know about Carol? And about me I guess — within reason! Call Talkback: 416-205-5687, email us at aih@cbc.ca. Or send us your question on Facebook or Twitter: @cbcasithappens.

[Music: elevator music]

Drowning lawsuit

Guest: Evelyne Mavoungo-Tsonga

JD: Blessing Moukoko could not swim. Even so, the 14-year-old Montreal boy was participating in a mandatory high school swimming lesson last February — when his classmates and his teacher noticed he was missing. 38 minutes elapsed before the discovery that he had sunk to the bottom of the pool. At a news conference yesterday, Quebec coroner Louis Normandin was visibly shaken, as he released his report on Blessing's death. He described a video that shows Blessing sink to the bottom of the pool's deep end, with nobody — not his classmates, not his teacher, and not a lifeguard — noticing. It was only when students filed in for the next swim lesson, that anyone saw his body. Today, Blessing's family announced they would be suing the city of Montreal and the school board. Evelyne Mavoungo-Tsonga is Blessing's mother. We reached her in Montreal.

SB: EveIyne, I am so sorry for the loss of your son. It's been nine months since Blessing died. How is your family doing?

EVELYNE MAVOUNGO-TSONGA: Well, it’s like truly a nightmare for me every day. It feels like it was yesterday. It took too long to have an answer. And when it happened, I didn't know nothing until Blessing died. I couldn't understand that.

SB: Evelyne, when Blessing died, what were you told about what happened?

EMT: When the accident happened, nobody told me nothing. So I knew something about what happened like a month after.

SB: You didn't know what happened to him in the pool?

EMT: I didn't know. I just saw my son. He was in perfect health he went to school. And then he never come back. And I was passing my exam downtown, and then they called me, and then they told me just that oh, we found your son forgotten or left in the pool. I was just shocked, and I just screamed you said forgotten? Left in the pool? What do you mean by that? Are you telling me that my son was in the water? I nearly broke my legs. And from there, I just couldn't understand. I didn't know what's happened.

SB: Until reading that coroner's report, which was released this week into your son's death. What answers did you get from that report?

EMT: The coroner came with more information. He explained to me what happened because he saw on a camera. The coroner said that his stayed like 38 to 42 minutes in water. My question was just how can that happened? If he stayed for almost 40 minutes down that means at what time he disappeared? And where were the teacher? How can that be possible? What happened? How can a child disappear within 10 to 15 minutes from the beginning of class? How can that be possible? So what did you do the next 30 minutes? Where were you? Where were the instructors? So I still have so many questions without answers.

SB: Do you worry that all the attention this story has generated could actually lead to more attempts to contact these people?

JM: I worry about that a little, but I don't think it's very likely. I suspect in the case of the Sentinelese for example, the Indian authorities will now be much more actively monitoring the waters around that island than they have been. And certainly in the Amazon, these are not the kind of places where you can just you know go and visit pretty quickly. So I am less worried about that. And I think the benefits of publicity outweigh that risk because for many of these peoples if they don't get significant international public support to kind of even up the odds that are set against them you know they face the very real prospect of being wiped out, particularly in Brazil where the climate now is very hostile to them. And all that kind of powerful political interests are very much in favor of opening up Indigenous territories to their natural resources, irrespective of the human cost.

SB: Mr. Mazower, thanks for your time today.

JM: Thank you very much.

SB: Goodbye.

JM: Goodbye.

JD: Jonathan Mazower is communications director at Survival International. We reached him in London. And we've more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Industrial]

Toronto medical student

Guest: Adam Shehata

JD: For most med students, beginning a rotation at a major Canadian hospital is exciting, exhausting, and nerve-wracking. For Adam Shehata, it's also very personal. This week, he started his pediatrics rotation at The Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto. The hospital where he spent the first five months of his life — and where he says the staff saved his life. We reached Adam Shehata in Toronto

SB: Mr. Shehata, can we start at the very beginning of your life? How were you doing when you were born?

ADAM SHEHATA: So when I was born it was quite precarious at the time. I was born in 1982, at 24 weeks, and then rushed to Sick Kids hospital.

SB: And what state were you in?

AS: So I don't have all of the details. But I can tell you that even today, kids born at that gestational age it's extremely unlikely that they'll live — let alone have a sort of a healthy life.

SB: What were your parents told about your future?

SB: I imagine. And so this went on for five months. Then you were allowed to go home, but how often did you have to return to Sick Kids over the years?

AS: So when I was discharged from the hospital, I’m told that it was by ambulance actually, and that I was discharged with oxygen tanks — and so when I when I was taken outside or anywhere, I'd have these oxygen tanks with me. And I don't know how often in the first part of my life that I had to return. But I know that for many, many years after that, I would be going back to Sick Kids on a regular basis for regular checkups. But also, my mother was quite fortunate enough that she could enroll me and take me to a number of occupational therapy appointments on a regular basis about once a week or so.

SB: What kind of health problems were you dealing with as you were growing up?

AS: I had some pretty severe asthma when I was growing up. I had recurrent ear infections, and I had a number of operations on my ear, nose, and throat — that sort of thing. But other than other than that and the hearing and so on, really it was just they wanted to make sure that because I was so premature that they could give me whatever advantages they could. And so they would take me to Sick Kids, and I remember distinctly they you know they would do a number of things you know gross motor skills, and fine motor skills, and they taught me fantastic handwriting actually. But, unfortunately, now I have terrible handwriting. But I hear that's a prerequisite for medicine anyway.

SB: So I'm told. So what does this mean for you now that you're actually doing your medical rotation at Sick Kids?

AS: You know it's not something that I had planned when I sent out a tweet and it just dawned on me that you know I had been hoping to be able to go to Sick Kids for my pediatric rotation. But it really dawned on me as I was about to walk through the doors that you know I'm returning to a place where for me it all started. And that was just really special for me.

SB: Before you went to medical school, I understand you became a professional pilot, and then you became a lawyer. Why did you decide to go on to medical school?

AS: So you know, I had been flying since I was about 16; I joined the Royal catered Air Cadets. And at the time, I got interested in flying because my father was a pilot, and we were transatlantic. And at the time, you could just go up and visit the cockpit. And I did, and like many people, that captivated me. And I had a career as a pilot, which was fantastic. But after September 11^th, which is you know shortly after September 11th I graduated, and then the financial collapse, the aviation industry was a bit stalled. And so I was again thinking about other careers. And I thought of both law and medicine. And around that time, my wife had a first pregnancy. And, unfortunately, we found out that the baby had a very severe heart condition. It was actually contact with a doctor at Sick Kids who were seen for a consultation that made me think of if I'm thinking of a career change maybe it could be medicine. And so that's really what brought me back.

SB: You and Sick Kids have quite the connection.

AS: Yes.

SB: And when you shared your story on Twitter, you got quite the response. This story has resonated with a lot of people. Can you share some of that with us?

AS: I had maybe 100 hundred followers or so before. I was just expecting this to be something that I you know I thought I'm walking through the doors maybe some of my family might enjoy seeing this. And since then, something like 15-hundred people have liked, and a couple-hundred people have retweeted it. A lot of people from the medical community have said oh, you know this is great. And I even had some physicians that I just worked with at Mt. Sinai Hospital where they do a lot of high-risk obstetrics say Oh Adam, I didn't know this about you. You know it's quite neat. The other people that it seems to have really resonated with are parents of preemies. And I've heard from a number of them who have said you know it's great to see this kind of story.

SB: What message do you have for kids themselves who might be going in and out of the hospitals now, or for their families?

AS: It's nice to hear you know these kinds of stories because no one really ever knows exactly what's going to happen. You know I would have never thought something like this was going to happen to me. You know even being able to continue on to further education, and even being able to you know go to medical school at all. I had applied to a number of times before finally being accepted to medical school. And you know the journey continues from here. So it's one of those where you want to be realistic. But at the same time, you want to sort of still reach for the stars as best you can.

SB: Well, good luck to you. The best of luck.

AS: Thank you very much.

SB: And thanks for talking to us.

AS: Thanks. Take care

JD: That was Adam Shehata, who's doing his pediatrics rotation at the very hospital where he spent the first few months of his life. We reached Mr. Shehata in Toronto. If you'd like to see some photographs, visit our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Caillou theme]

Caillou legal battle

JD: Nothing very dramatic happens in the world of 4-year-old Caillou. He has sleepovers and playdates, whines, hangs out with his parents, whines, makes messes, and whines. But in the three-dimensional world, the real world, where Caillou is 29, he's been the subject of endless drama. And, you could say, a fitting amount of whining. Now, it's all over. After a custody battle that began more than two decades ago, the illustrator who first drew Caillou has won her case. Unlike the dozens of Caillou books — and the mercifully brief episodes of the animated "Caillou" series — it's a long story. But back in 1989, that illustrator, Helene Desputeaux, and author Christine L'Heureux, created that hairless four-year-old. They wrote several books together. And then, in 1996, the working relationship fell apart. Possibly just personal differences. Some of you exhausted parents might guess they were torn apart by their guilt for bringing Caillou into the world. Whatever it was, Ms. Desputeaux and Ms. L'Heureux have been fighting over intellectual property rights ever since. And royalties -- because "Caillou" became a TV show that's aired in 72 countries. Well, yesterday — 21 years after their court battle began — a judge ruled that Helene Desputeaux owns the rights to all Caillou stuff created between 1989 and 1995, which entitles her to a lot of royalties. According to Le Devoir, as much as 70 million bucks. So it's finally over. The "Caillou" legal saga, I mean. Not "Caillou". "Caillou" will never be over. Which means some fancy wine for Helene Desputeaux — and constant, regular whining for the rest of us.

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November 28, 2018 episode transcript

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