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The Current Transcript for November 13, 2018

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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VOICE: I'm laying there, scared enough, not wanting this done. Been telling her I didn't want it done. Then all of a sudden, I smelled something burning. If I could've moved my legs, I probably would have kicked her or something.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: What she didn't want was a tubal ligation. She got it anyway. One of more than 60 Indigenous women who say they were harassed, pressured or coerced into having their tubes tied, often while in labor and as recently as last year. What began as a lawsuit over forced sterilization for two women is now a proposed class action suit spanning much of the country and raising questions about systemic racism in our health care systems. In a moment, we'll hear from the lawyer fighting for them. We're focusing on stories of women in marginalized communities today, women who found their voices and imagination, despite the hurdles, which brings us to a story about ballet.

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VOICE: Ballet should be acceptable to everyone, you know, no matter what. To have a shoe that I could just put on and go, I never thought that'd happen.

AMT: A dancer who for years painstakingly coloured her point shoes to match her darker skin because until now, shoes only came in white or pink. As you will hear, it isn't really about the shoes, it is about who belongs and about those who have over decades refused to be ignored. That discussion, in half an hour. And then, remember this name, Nice Nailantei Leng'ete. She's in her twenties. She's been fighting FGM, female genital mutilation, since she was eight-years-old because even as a little girl, she understood power in numbers.

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VOICE: If I'm alone, this problem will continue being there, but what if we have a thousand girls like Nice who have not undergone circumcision, more voices that can speak for other girls all over Africa.

AMT: She is forcing change in her Kenyan Maasai community, convincing the elders to adopt new traditions to celebrate women and girls, without any cutting. Hear how she's done that in an hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremont. This is The Current.

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Indigenous women kept from seeing their newborn babies until agreeing to sterilization, says lawyer

Guests: Alisa Lombard, Janet Smylie

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AMT: Two years ago on The Current, we heard a chilling story from an Indigenous woman in Saskatchewan who says she went to the hospital to give birth and ended up being sterilized by the doctor.

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VOICE: This option of having my tubes tied was available and I immediately asked about side effects and risks and they ultimately assured me that it could be reversed and that there were minimal side effects and I believed them. I trusted them at face value, as they were officials, they were doctors, nurses, so I assumed that they had my best interests at heart.

AMT: After she sought to have the procedure reversed a few years later, she learned the truth of what had happened that day.

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VOICE: When I learnt that there was zero chance of me having children. When I learnt that I was sterile, that this was done to me, I felt violated as a woman because a woman's ability to have children is a huge part of their identity.

AMT: We cannot tell you her name because she is now involved in a lawsuit, but since that interview aired, more Indigenous women have come forward with similar stories. More than 60 Indigenous women now want to pursue a class action lawsuit saying they were sterilized against their will. A newly appointed senator is calling on the government of Canada to take action. Yvonne Boyer is a metis lawyer and nurse. She is the first Indigenous Senator for Ontario. Last year, she produced a report on the issue of forced sterilizations and heard from Indigenous women from across the country.

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VOICE: They were telling me that they had been sterilized when they didn't understand what was going on. They had signed consent forms, but they didn't really know what they were signing or they had not signed consent forms and they were sterilized.

AMT: Alisa Lombard is an associate Maurice Law, the law firm handling the proposed class action lawsuit and she is in our Ottawa studio. Hello.

ALISA LOMBARD: Good morning.

AMT: What do these women say happened to them?

AL: Well in essence, the women report going into hospital to have a baby, being pressured into signing a consent form, while in the throes of labour and the immediate aftermath of delivery or not signing consent forms at all. In most cases, women report being told that the procedure was reversible, if not in all cases and they leave sterile.

AMT: And are these women all Indigenous, that you're dealing with them?

AL: Yes they are.

AMT: And are there commonalities beyond being Indigenous? Where were they?

AL: No, I think the vast majority of the women are from reserved-based communities living in urban centres, such as Saskatoon, North Battleford, Regina and other areas that are more rural, but aside from that those are essentially the commonalities.

AMT: And over what period of time are we talking?

AL: The vast majority of the women that we've spoken with were sterilized against their will in the past 20 to 25 years.

AMT: But you have talked to some who are more recent?

AL: Absolutely. The most recent would be 2017.

AMT: So who did they say was coercing them into doing this?

AL: Health professionals essentially, for the most part. In some cases, you have the involvement of child and family services. I would say that that's in a minority of cases. That does not then condone the propriety of that. It just simply is to be clear in terms of the facts. And so they would go in the throes of labor, which involves tremendous pain, as you can imagine. They would be approached, harassed, coerced into signing these consent forms or simply told that they could not leave before their tubes were tied or cut or cauterized, depending on the procedure that was used or that they could not see their baby until they agreed or that CAS would be called or that they had to do this for their own health, for their children's health because they may have children who won't be healthy, for example. And so those, that was kind of, that's the pattern of the manifestation.

AMT: And so even those who sign consent forms, you argue that's problematic, that that's not consent?

AL: Indeed. The pillars of consent in law are quite clear and they're also supported by international standards issued to international bodies, including the World Health Organization. There's a fiduciary relationship between a patient and a doctor and any healthcare professional for that matter. And consent, proper and informed consent, involves firstly the patient being capable of providing that consent. So any undue stress such as the intense pain of labor would displace the propriety of seeking consent to a non-essential medical procedure with life altering ramifications at that time. Full disclosure of risks and consequences and options, time in an appropriate environment to consider that information and the absence of coercion. These are the four pillars of proper and informed consent and in Saskatchewan and particularly in relation to the women that I've spoken with, these procedures, these milestones were not fulfilled.

AMT: What does the law say about forced sterilization? Is it illegal?

AL: Legislatively, no. We say that it is a battery of a sexual nature in the civil realm. It could be construed as a sexual assault in the criminal realm. What complicates that is of course the fiduciary nature of the relationship between the physician and the patient. And so in many countries, forced sterilization is in fact criminalized and this is a part of what we are asking happen in Canada.

AMT: I'm actually surprised to hear that it isn't illegal here.

AL: It's not.

AMT: Okay, well, so what are you hearing from these women about the impact of all of this on their lives?

AL: I think there can be no understatement of the impact on their lives and I just want to say, just in case any women are listening, who have been impacted by this to make sure that their support is close to them, when I discuss what I'm about to discuss because this can be very re-traumatizing. They report you know physically there are of course a lot of symptoms, but the primary injury associated with forced sterilization is quite obviously sterility. Sterility will mean different things for different people, depending on what, how their body functions, how they view the ability to give life, what their spirituality is and how it informs them on that particular process. And so many have had you know bouts and persistent you know depression, anxiety, many are no longer with us because of those ailments and those circumstances. And so I don't think we can understate the impact of a violation of a woman's bodily autonomy.

AMT: Who are the defendants in this case?

AL: The defendants are the physicians that we know about and those that we do not know about. There are some that are named. The Saskatchewan Health Authority, the province of Saskatchewan and the government of Canada.

AMT: We did request an interview with the Saskatchewan health region, as well as the Saskatchewan Health Authority and we did not hear back from either. Last year, the Saskatoon Health Region publicly apologized and said it changed its policies around sterilization. What do you make of that apology?

AL: I think apologies are good. I think actions are better. And so I am not aware of any policy changes. I am not, I have not seen them, I have not been informed of them. I have not been told what measures are being taken to prevent, to investigate, to prosecute, to remedy, to make amends with these women and their families who have suffered so greatly and so, although that apology is a good first step, I think being accountable and taking responsibility involves changing one's behavior.

AMT: We also requested an interview with the Federal Minister of Indigenous services, Jane Philpott. We have not heard back. She is on the record as saying that forced sterilizations are "a very serious violation of human rights." She also says Canada must ensure the practice stops. Does that give you any optimism?

AL: Absolutely. I think that recognition is extremely important. I think that investigation and study is even more important. I think that taking actions and implement preventative measures, such as criminalizing forced sterilization, is extremely important. I think education of the practice in the profession, in the health profession, is very important. Awareness with respect to the pillars of consent, in both the health system and among Indigenous women is also extremely important and I think that those measures, those very concrete actions must be put into play immediately. If they are not, then we will continue to witness and we will continue to see the forced sterilization of Indigenous women.

AMT: You are raising this issue of the forced sterilization of Indigenous women in Canada at a UN Committee Against Torture later this month. Why are you taking this issue to the international community?

AL: Well I think it's important to note the function of that international committee. The committee has emphasized that the state's obligation to protect minority or marginalized individuals or population who are especially at risk of torture or ill treatment is important. And the committee has found that gender is a key factor in the forms of torture or ill treatment and that women are particularly at risk of torture or ill treatment when receiving medical treatment or making reproductive health decisions. The special rapporteur from that committee has also emphasized the necessity of full and informed consent in health care decisions and noted the intersection on nature of gender with other identities, such as race or socioeconomic status that puts individuals at risk of torture and ill treatment. And so we say in our action that the forced sterilization of Indigenous women constitutes cruel and unusual treatment. And so we want that to be on the forefront. We want it to be understood and we want measures to be taken to prevent it from happening.

AMT: And the UN says obstetric violence is a form of torture, am I right with that phrase?

AL: Correct.

AMT: And that's why you're going there?

AL: Correct.

AMT: This is personal for you, isn't it?

AL: Well I myself happen to be 30 weeks pregnant at this time. I have a daughter, who is Indigenous. I will have another who is Indigenous. And I think that it is important insofar as my client's interests are concerned, those are front and centre, but as a wise man once said, the chains on one of us is the chains on all of us. And so I think that Indigenous women ought to be able to walk into a health facility, seek reproductive health care and not fear walking out, never needing to seek reproductive health care again against their will.

AMT: Alisa Lombard, thank you for your time today.

AL: Thank you so much.

AMT: Alisa Lombard, an associate Maurice Law, the law firm handling the class action lawsuit. She is in our Ottawa studio. Proposed at this point, not yet certified suit. My next guest has been following these developments. Janet Smylie is a family doctor and research chair at St. Michael's Hospital and the University of Toronto. She specializes in Indigenous health. In the interest of transparency, she also happens to have a family connection to our previous guest. Alisa Lombard is her daughter-in-law. Janet Smylie joins me in our Toronto studio. Hi.

JANET SMYLIE: Good morning. Good morning Anna Maria. Good morning Alisa.

AMT: What strikes you about these stories from Indigenous women in this country who say they're being sterilized against their will?

JS: Well first of all, it's very sad and tragic and I would like to just acknowledge those women and their families and their communities. Unfortunately though, it's not a surprise to me, so that doesn't mean that I don't want to acknowledge how devastating it is to have this kind of assault, but for me I actually see it as the tip of an iceberg. Unfortunately, that is rooted in racism, systemic racism, attitudinal racism and the images of Indigenous women as sexualized people that actually are recorded by the very first European settlers in this country.

AMT: What do we know about the prevalence of systemic racism faced by Indigenous women in the health care systems in Canada?

JS: Well it's interesting because we have these different terms for racism. So there's attitudinal racism, which can happen at an intrapersonal level and then there's systemic racism when a group of people come together. So they're actually quite connected and for some reason we feel more comfortable talking about systemic racism. So systems that actually then support differential treatments. What we know unfortunately then is it's quite common and for myself, I have my own experiences having been trained and then practiced as a Metis physician for 25 years. And then also in my research, I've actually drilled down and looked at the policy context and how common it is and spoken to thousands of Indigenous community members in terms of their experiences in trying to access health systems in this country, as well as relied on information from my colleagues. What we know in my own training in fact, I commonly heard things. So one of the things that I was actually trained as a doctor, we were doing our rounds and I heard the senior obstetrics resident once speak to me, I trained in Kingston, I don't think anyone hospital is any better or worse than another necessarily though and there was a woman who had flown in, a First Nations woman from a northern First Nations community because she'd had some problem in her pregnancy or birth. And she had a number of children and he said to us, the group of trainees, these women don't know how to take care of their kids. They have too many kids and they don't know how to take care of them. So I think that the other issue though is as human beings, we ingroup and outgroup people, so I've spent quite a bit of time trying to think about how not only historically in these journals by the very first Europeans who were men and Jesuit and they were struck by the autonomy of Indigenous women. And the fact that indigenous women, many of the Indigenous communities they encountered the Indigenous women, controlled their reproductive choice. But we also as human beings and in my studies of trying to figure out how I can actually work to address this issue of attitudinal and systemic racism, among health care providers, understand from social psychology that we ingroup and outgroup and we treat people that look like us, better than people that look differently.

AMT: Right there have been studies of implicit association, right? The way we see people and this extends to doctors in the midst of health care. What, over your 25 year career and in both being researching and being at the university, what are you telling doctors coming up now? What are you telling them to watch for because of what you've seen?

JS: Yeah. So we actually need and its in the recommendations of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, all our marching orders are there. So I think we need two things, but one of the things that I'm advocating for is that we actually look at this evidence and face this difficult human reality, that even though we think racism is morally wrong, we can fall into it like a bad habit. And we actually have to do personal work to understand our own assumptions, get a bit uncomfortable, challenge our stereotypes because the other thing is, the media, even though we, despite our best efforts, my specialties of public health and health sciences, we actually have biases and we promote and perpetuates stereotypes even as we try to fight them about Indigenous women. As physicians we're trained that we know better, right and the basis of the legal system and medicine are in Western European values.

AMT: And so in like specifically in these cases that we're seeing, where we now see a law suit alleging forced sterilizations. What can change? What needs to change? What's the the message?

JS: So in addition to the legal remedies and restitution of the situation and compensation and support for those women and their families and communities, we have to radically change the way that we train our professionals and we have to teach them that stereotypes about Indigenous people and other marginalised social groups are still rampant. That good intentions are not enough, that often this ingrouping and outgrouping is happening at an unconscious level that we're not aware of and we have to learn to recognize and challenge those unconscious patterns, so we treat everybody with respect because we're trained in how to get informed consent, but we're offering it in a differential manner.

AMT: I was just going to say that as Alisa Lombard just pointed out, that there's something you have to go through for informed consent.

JS: That's correct and we get trained in that.

AMT: It means not when somebody's in labor.

JS: That's correct. So what we see unfortunately in health care settings and I've seen it before is very well-intentioned people, who went into health and social services because they wanted to help people actually do things that are inhumane because there's kind of a group context that supports that and there's not a systemic environment and they haven't had the proper training to recognise and identify. On occasion there might be one person that identifies it, but they don't feel empowered to speak out. The other thing because this is going to take time, it's been 500 years that this undermining of Indigenous women's reproductive sovereignty and these stereotypes around gendered racism have been perpetuated in North America, is we need to support Indigenous midwives and Indigenous doulas. I was out in Brandon the other week. There's amazing movements of local First Nations, Metis, Inuit women who are trained and can support and advocate for women, so that they can actually intervene.

AMT: Janet Smylie, thank you for coming in. Dr. Janet Smylie, family doctor and research chair at St. Michael's Hospital and the University of Toronto. Let us know what you think. You can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook. Go to our website, cbc.ca/thecurrent. Stay with us. The news is next and then ballet dancers of colour finally get shoes of their own. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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Meet Raven Wilkinson, the black ballerina who blazed a trail long before shoes came in brown and bronze

Guests: Virginia Johnson, Leda Schubert, Nadra Nittle

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

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AMT: Still to come, for decades, international organizations have campaigned against female genital mutilation in African countries. And real change is finally coming, but it's coming within the communities from women most affected by the practice. I'll speak to one of them who started her fight when she was just a little girl in Kenya, in half an hour. But first, one shoe drops.

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VOICE: Okay ladies, remember come back to your centre from the front to the side. Okay front to the side. Here we go.

[Ballet music]

AMT: At a class this week at the National Ballet School in Toronto, dancers practiced their plies and pirouettes, just as generations have before them, but there's something new afoot in the ballet world. It's one of those little things that can mean a lot. One of the biggest manufacturers of ballet shoes announced that it will be selling its shoes in different colours. Ballet or point shoes, as they're known, are traditionally either light pink or white for ballerinas, but the company, Freed of London, is rolling out two new hues, "ballet brown" and "ballet bronze." Our producer, Sarah Joyce Battersby, dropped by the National Ballet School, for some student reaction.

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VOICE: It makes me feel happy cause I think they're opening up the dance world more by adding different colours of shoes, which is great.

AMT: That is 16-year-old ballet student Rachel Zinman. She began taking classes at Canada's National Ballet School when she was in grade six. At the time she was the only black girl in her class. Lisa Marie Jourdain is an instructor at the school.

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VOICE: I think it's wonderful. Like it keeps the line between the color of the leg and the feet.

AMT: Well for more on how the new shoes are being received in the ballet world, I'm joined by Virginia Johnson. She's a former prima ballerina. She is a founding member and the current artistic director of Dance Theater of Harlem, a New York company that showcases diverse ballet dancers. They're currently on tour in Grand Rapids, Michigan and that's where we've reached Virginia Johnson today. Hello.

VIRGINIA JOHNSON: Good morning, Anna Maria. How are you?

AMT: I'm well and I'm curious to talk about this with you. How did first of all Dance Theater of Harlem come to be?

VJ: Dance Theater of Harlem was founded 50 years ago by Arthur Mitchell and Karel Shook. Arthur Mitchell was the first African American to be a permanent member of an American Ballet Company. And after the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Junior in 1968, Arthur Mitchell was trying to figure out what he could do as a ballet dancer to make the kind of difference and the kind of change in the world that Dr. King had done. So he decided to open a school in Harlem, where he would teach the young people life skills, such as focus and discipline and that most potent thing, perseverance, to change their lives. He actually realized that these young people needed role models, they needed something to aspire to. So he took the 400 kids that were gathered around him and they said I'm going to make a company. And he brought in people like myself who had been told, no you can't be part of this art form because of the colour of your skin. You don't belong here. So he created Dance Theater of Harlem company to show the world that it's about opportunity, it's about access. If you have the talent, if you have the training, then why can't you do this?

AMT: And in the beginning the dancers all wore pink and white tights and shoes. How did that change?

VJ: Yes indeed we did start in our very first year, first two years of performances, we were in pink shoes and pink tights. That was the convention as it still is very much today. And Arthur Mitchell had a very big mountain to climb in convincing people that black people belonged in ballet. So he wanted to preserve some of the expectations. But we were actually in London and had a huge success. We were actually brought back to Sadler's Wells by popular demand and at that point, I think that Mr. Mitchelll said, okay they've accepted us, now let me take it to another level. And when we came back to Sadler's Wells in that summer of I think it was 1972, we came back with brown tights, with tights that matched each dancer's skin tone.

AMT: What did it feel like to come out on stage like that?

VJ: Well you know Anna Maria, I was a performer and I was only worried about pirouettes. I didn't really notice what was going on with my legs, I'm sorry.

AMT: But it was a very special moment, right? It was a turning point.

VJ: Well it was a turning point and you know I think that it was embraced by the British audience right away because they could see that this was a manifestation of our entire being. We weren't trying to be something that we weren't. We were actually dancers who were ballet dancers of colour and of many different colours. And even now with the company, one of the things that I love to see when the curtain goes up is that we have people who are very dark, we have people who are kind of more reddish tone, we have people who are more yellow tone in skin. There's just so many hues on the stage and they come together to make something that is quite beautiful because they're moving as one, but they're not identical.

AMT: So there was this importance in keeping the line of the dancers' body in ballet. What does that mean?

VJ: Ballet is very much about line. You know it is about making pleasing shapes in space, in the way that you move through space, but also in the positions that you take and that when you have somebody who looks from the top of their head to the tips of their fingers to the tips of their toes as a unified whole, then you do have that sense of a complete line, not a broken line that's distracted by colour.

AMT: Ballet is such a classical art form steeped in tradition, how do you innovate in a space like that?

VJ: Well Dance Theater of Harlem has been innovating about not just what we look like, but what we bring to the stage. The Dance Theater of Harlem company of course does many classical works, but we also do contemporary works. We do works that are based in contemporary life. One of the first works that I commissioned when I was brought, came in to do become artistic director, was a work that was created to a spoken word with a commissioned score. And it told a story, it told a love story, just the way that Swan Lake tells a love story. This is a story about young people who meet on the subway platform and explore what it is to fall in love, but it was told, not just through movement and music, but also through poetry.

AMT: So when the youngest students walk through the doors at Dance Theater of Harlem, what do they see?

VJ: They see what's possible in the world. I think it's really important for young people especially, to understand that it's a very rigorous art form. It's a very exclusive art form because you have to be talented and you have to work very hard, but it doesn't mean that you have to be excluded because of the colour of your skin.

AMT: So this change in the colour of the shoes that the companies are now putting out, it's not really about the shoes, is it?

VJ: Not at all, but it's very wonderful. It's a nod in the right direction that somebody is investing in a future that is diverse.

AMT: When you were a young dancer, who could you look to on stage for inspiration?

VJ: You know when I was a young dancer, I didn't look at the colour of my skin. I looked at what I loved. I loved the art form of ballet. I loved Margot Fontaine. I loved Maya Plisetskaya. Though I have to admit that when I saw Mary Hinkson, who was an exquisite dancer with the Martha Graham company, she was an African-American. When she stepped on the stage and that was the first time I saw someone who was of colour on the stage, performing that way, I got chills. So I recognized that I needed to see myself out there, even though I didn't know it.

AMT: Did you see Raven Wilkinson on stage as well?

VJ: Yes I was about 13 or 14 and I was dancing with an all black company, I was still in high school, but I was dancing with an all black company in Washington called the Capital Ballet. And these two women, Claire Jones and Doris Hayward brought Raven Wilkinson to Washington to perform with their company because she was an exquisite ballerina, who had a big career in Europe, but was not able to have a career in America. And I remember very vividly standing in the wings, watching her perform, saw a festival in first one Genzano, very famous Bournonville protege and being in such a state of awe, but in such a state of joy that she was there and I could be like her.

AMT: Wow. Well Virginia Johnson, we have someone waiting in the wings who's written a children's story about Raven Wilkinson. So we'll go there next. Thank you so much for your time today.

VJ: It's my pleasure.

AMT: That is Virginia Johnson, artistic director at the Dance Theater of Harlem, a New York City Ballet Company. She joined us from Grand Rapids, Michigan, where the company is currently on tour. Well, when it comes to touring North America as a black ballet dancer, Raven Wilkinson, was a true pioneer. She will turn 84-years-old this February and we spoke to her briefly about what it was like to tour the southern U.S. back in the 1950s.

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VOICE: You know it has a lot to do with our country's social structure because my big problem was Jim Crow in the south. You know going where the laws say an African-American couldn't dance. And I was with so many foreigners, some of them had just come over from Soviet Poland and hear they could stay in hotels and dance on the stages, that I couldn't.

AMT: That is Raven Wilkinson, a pioneering black dancer in the United States. My next guest wrote a children's book about Raven Wilkinson. Leda Schubert's book is Trailblazer: The Story of Ballerina Raven Wilkinson. It was published earlier this year and Leda Schubert joins us from Plainfield, Vermont. Hello.

LEDA SCHUBERT: Oh thank you so much for contacting me.

AMT: Well I'm really interested to hear the story of Raven Wilkinson. We heard a little clip from her there. How did she get her start?

LS: She loved ballet from the time she was 5-years-old, when her parents took her to see Coppelia and she said, before the curtain even lifted, she heard the tympani, she saw the red velvet curtain, she was sitting on the plush seats and she said she just knew that this what she wanted to do for the rest of her life and she cried. And that's what she did. She became a beautiful dancer.

AMT: And she toured with the company through the southern US. What was the company?

LS: The Ballet Russe.

AMT: Okay and we heard a little bit about what she faced. Tell us a little bit more about what it was like for her.

LS: Terrible. Well it wasn't really terrible because she had the company of the dancers and she loved to dance and that's all she ever wanted to do. But the encounters that she had with racists in the south of America were frightening. One encounter included some Ku Klux Klan members, we think they were Ku Klux Klan members, running up onto the stage and saying, "Where's the negro? Where's the negra?" And that she was circled by the white dancers in the troupe and protected, but imagine the courage that that took to stay on the stage. And occasionally she was sent the company director Serge Denham sent her away and said you can't dance here, go home and we'll pick you up when we come north again. So she was incredibly courageous and the members of the company were courageous and protected her as well.

AMT: Wasn't there a case where, there was actually the KKK actually burned a cross by the hotel where she was staying?

LS: Yes one night she was eating in the hotel restaurant. I think this was in Montgomery and she was sitting at a table and at the tables next to her were some families with young children and she thought they had white laundry on the chairs next to them and then she realized that it was the hoods and robes of the Ku Klux Klan. And that night she saw a cross burn from her hotel window and the next day she did not dance. And I mean it was 1955 and one of the things or actually I think it was in 57 that that event occurred and one of the things she spoke about when I interviewed her was that of course all this was exacerbated by Brown versus the Board of Education, which was encouraging Southern schools to integrate and people were fighting back and that's how they fought back.

AMT: It's interesting as well because she was fairly light skinned and was encouraged at times to pass as white and she refused.

LS: Yes she did. She said she would be lying about who she was and she couldn't possibly do that.

AMT: What made her so strong?

LS: I think of course I can't answer all of those questions, but I think her family, which was her father was a dentist. Her mother was a homemaker. They grew up in a section of Harlem called the Dunbar apartments, which was constructed by the Rockefellers for people of colour who had means and people who lived there with her were quite amazing. I actually I remember vaguely that W.E.B. Du Bois lived there, Paul Robeson, Philip Randolph, Matthew Henson, so she grew up as in part of an active community and I think that helped as well. She went to Columbia for a couple of years, while she was auditioning. She was just, she came out that way.

AMT: But she ended up having to move to Europe to dance.

LS: She did and not because the company let her go, but because she was told she could never be the Black Swan in Swan Lake and she said why not? And they said it's just not going to happen for you. So she went to Holland where she joined the Dutch National Ballet and she had been told by her first, by Serge Denham and by her first teachers, that she would be a beautiful dancer and that she would dance before kings and queens and she did in Holland.

AMT: And you tell her story, is it well known?

LS: I don't think it's well known. It's well known now more because of Misty Copeland, who credits Raven as being her mentor. So when Misty became a prima ballerina, she invited, you know when she first danced Swan Lake on stage, she invited Raven to the opening and Raven came up on stage with her and I think that was a wonderful, wonderful thing for Raven, who thinks Misty is just an amazing human being, as we all do. So I think that Misty's rise to fame has helped Raven become better known.

AMT: And you heard Virginia Johnson, she actually she took in a breath there when I asked her about Raven Wilkinson.

LS: I did. I did hear that. Yes.

AMT: It's quite amazing. So knowing that story about Raven Wilkinson, what does it tell you that it's taken this long for black dancers to find point shoes to match their skin?

LS: Racism is alive and well in this country and I know in other countries as well. It's a tragedy. It's unimaginable to me that it's taken this long to come up with shoes that create that beautiful line in dancers. That we want to encourage dancing from all people and we want a diverse world and I can't believe it's taken this long. But I'm happy that they're now.

AMT: What have you heard from parents and kids who have read your book?

LS: Not a lot, you know young children read the book and they're not likely to reach out to authors, but I have gotten some emails and some Facebook posts from friends who have read the book or have seen young dancers reading the book and it's just it's a wonder to me that Raven can become a little bit more famous, which she so deserves.

AMT: Leda Schubert, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

LS: Thank you so much.

AMT: That's Leda Schubert and the book she's written is called, Trailblazer: The Story of Ballerina Raven Wilkinson. She joined us today from Plainfield, Vermont. Well it is not just the dance world that has slowed to meet the needs of women of colour.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: All women should be able to have their own shade of foundation. It's that simple and I feel like women have made Fenty beauty this example. They're like this is what we want, you see she's making these shades and for me, I didn't do it for the celebration. I did it because that's how I genuinely feel. I feel like everybody should be included. But the way that women are being getting emotional at the counter because they found their shade for the first time, it has become a celebration.

AMT: Well that's pop star, Rihanna, at the 2017 launch of her new makeup line, Fenty Beauty. Fashion writers say Fenty is a game changer in the cosmetics industry because it offers a wide range of make up for darker skin tones. My next guest says the history of dark tone makeup goes back a lot further than that. Nadra Nittle is a reporter for the Goods. It's an online publication that focuses on consumer culture. The Goods is part of vox.com and Nadra Nittle is in LA. Hello.

NADRA NITTLE: Hi. Thank you for having me.

AMT: You've been listening into our conversation. What's your reaction to the news that ballet shoes are finally becoming more inclusive?

NN: I think it's very exciting and it's an issue that I've heard about for years now. So I definitely think that it's a sign of change, however you know we need more brands, more ballet outfitters to come up with different shades because not all ballerinas you know can wear certain styles. So there's still a definite need, so I hope to see in the future more manufacturers of ballet apparel come up with point shoes in different colours.

AMT: And of course it isn't solely the ballet shoes we're talking about today, but the makeup and other issues. So tell me more about why Fenty is so significant.

NN: So when Fenty launched in 2017, it was very interesting because it had a forty shade makeup foundation range. And so because of that, because it had so many shades and it was so successful, the darker shades sold out first, it kind of showed to the cosmetics industry that there was a need that women of colour you know really want to wear makeup and they wanted to wear makeup in their shade and that they were willing to buy and support a brand who was able to make that, make those shades available to them. So it kind of challenges the idea that there just wasn't a market for darker shades of makeup, which is something that had been said for years, wrongly, but it still had been said for years by cosmetics manufacturers.

AMT: And Rihanna talks about it as a right, how significant is that?

NN: Yeah I mean I think everyone you know should be able to go into a store, to go into a mall and find makeup in their skin tone and I think for years that hadn't been the case. Now Fenty was not the first makeup brand to do this, but because Rihanna is so well known and such a celebrity, she was able to really shine a spotlight on this issue, on the fact that you know these are things if you're lighter in skin tone, you could take for granted. The fact that you could go into a cosmetics store, you could go to a department store and find makeup in your shade and the fact that women of colour, you know not just black women, women of Asian descent, you know Latino women, women of a variety of backgrounds have had problems finding makeup. So I definitely think it's something that has been taken for granted for far too long.

AMT: And then so this is now more available to them. In other words, what was available before had to be hunted down.

NN: Yeah especially depending on where you lived in the United States. If you were in you know a large urban city and you know that had a higher percentage of people of colour then it might not have been as difficult for you, but there's definitely parts of the US, where there aren't as many people of colour. And so I think in those markets especially, it would be hard to be a woman of colour, trying to find makeup. And while you can try to patronize brands online because you're trying to match a shade to your skin tone, makeup is something you really need access to in person.

AMT: Well I was reading about this last night because the marketing of makeup for women of colour goes back decades. The first creator was a man, Overton?

NN: Right, so I wrote a piece that came out in January, called Before Fenty, you know 100 years of black makeup brands. So yes, a man named Anthony Overton in the late 1800s, launched a company called Overton Hygenic and it had different products at first, but by the early 1900s, he really became successful by making makeup shades for women. So he had something called high brown face powder and it was such a success. He had moved to Chicago and it became a real success and so he's proved, the success of his company is proof that this issue has been ongoing for more than 100 years and that women of colour have always wanted makeup and have always you know supported manufacturers who made it available to them. So back then a lot of women of colour, they have to get this makeup by mail order because department stores in the first half of the 20th century they were segregated. So once again, you couldn't just go into a store and get makeup. So it was by mail order, it was traveling salespeople who gave makeup in darker shades to women of colour.

AMT: In fact there's a Canadian connection with Viola Desmond, who's about to show up on our ten dollar bill.

NN: Yes, yes. So I had written about her as well in another piece. The fact that in the 1940s, when she was arrested for sitting in the white section of a Nova Scotia movie theater, that at that time, she also had, she had designed makeup powder designed to enhance dark complexions. That's how she marketed them, in addition to selling hair products and you know face creams and other sort of cosmetics, which she studied under Madam C.J. Walker, the famous African-American beauty mogul and she in New York and when she came back to Canada, she kind of you know decided to open her own business and train women of colour in Nova Scotia.

AMT: Nadra, we have to leave it there, but that's something to remember because the bill is being released very soon now. Thanks a lot. Nadra Nittle, reporter with the Goods, online magazine with vox.com.

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Meet the Kenyan woman urging village elders to abandon female genital mutilation

Guests: Nice Nailantei Leng’ete

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current. Our next conversation is dealing with a sensitive topic. It is a cultural tradition with a long history in Kenya's Maasai community and it goes by a deceptively simple name there, they call it, "the cut." There is nothing simple about the procedure or the practice or the efforts to stamp out female genital mutilation for good. It's performed on girls as young as eight or nine, as a way to control their sexual activity. Despite years of efforts, from international organizations to halt the practice, it is the women in the communities who appear to be bringing about some powerful change and much of that is spearheaded by my next guest. Nice Nailantei Leng'ete is a Maasai woman from Kenya, who has been fighting against FGM since she was eight-years-old. She now works to suggest alternatives to "the cut," suggestions that are starting to be taken up in her community. Nice Nailantei Leng'ete was named one of Time magazine's 100 Most Influential People in the world in 2018 and she's with me in Toronto. Hello.

NICE NAILANTEI LENG'ETE: Hello, thank you.

AMT: How old were you when you first became aware of the cut?

NNL: The first time I became aware of the cut, I think I was 7-years-old because that was just after the loss of my parents. I had to go and live with my grandfather. So when I went to my grandfather, he was old, he couldn't take care of me. So the option was to take me to a boarding school. So in the boarding school is when I started interacting with girls from different communities and that's when I started realizing that it's not even done to every girl. Because before in my community, eve when I was six, seven, I used to attend these ceremonies when circumcision is being performed and I was seeing other girls, my friends, after circumcision they leave school and all that.

AMT: And talk to me a little bit about the ceremonies you saw then when you were six or seven. What you were brought in to watch and there would be girls just like a year or so older than you?

NNL: Yes at the time because mostly they look at your physical appearance. Sometimes you might even go when you're younger, seven, eight or nine, depending with your body size. When you're short it means you will go later, but if you are tall physically, you'll go earlier. And it's also a way of preparing you to be strong because when you're undergoing the cut, there are things that you're not supposed to do, one of them is crying or even moving your body. You're called a coward or there's no man from that community who is going to marry you.

AMT: So you're six or seven years old and you see this, what do you remember from those early ceremonies witnessing it?

NNL: I remember a lot of things because one, I saw girls that I knew, girls I was with in school together. These girls were sad because I saw a lot of pain in them, but because culture is demanding for them to undergo and culture is telling them that you cannot cry. They couldn't cry when it's being performed there, but immediately they are taken to their rooms, you could see them crying. I could look at them and that's when I saw like this is something that is very painful. It's bringing a lot of problems. And again neighbor saw death in this communities, that's why I was not comfortable with it.

AMT: So you knew that there was a lot of pain involved and you didn't want that.

NNL: I was scared of that and I never wanted also to leave school and become someone's wife.

AMT: So when you were eight-years-old and it was your turn to be cut, what happened?

NNL: I was supposed to undergo the cut together with my three cousins and my sister who was two years older than me. So it was a group of five girls. These ceremonies are very expensive sometimes times to conduct, that's why they like having many girls together. And when it was my time, I had so many mixed reactions. One I've seen that in my community happening because of circumcision. I've seen girls undergoing a lot of pain. I've seen them being married when they are young. Even in school where I was because I was interacting with girls from different communities, when they know you're from my community. They were girls bath together in big bathrooms. They want to come and look at you and make jokes at you and laugh at you and that's traumatised other girls from my community and they were not also comfortable staying in school. They had to drop out of school. So as a young girl, I have seen all these and that's why I was like, I don't want to undergo the cut. But then again my family will not agree, they were saying it's a must for you. We don't want shame in our family, so you know very well as a girl, you cannot be considered a woman if you have not undergone the cut.

AMT: So you ran away?

NNL: And I had to run away, not one time, but two times. The first time I ran away and stayed in my mother's sisters place. I was beaten when I was found there.

AMT: And you ran away with your sister that first time?

NNL: Yes the first time.

AMT: And they beat you when they found you?

NNL: When they found me we were beaten by my uncle and a group of men and that's why the second time my sister did not run away because she was tired of the beatings and then again she was two years older than me. So she said maybe if I stay, they will leave you. So it was a way of sacrificing herself to undergo the cut, so that I'd be left out.

AMT: And so they did it to your sister.

NNL: They did it to my sister and later she got married.

AMT: And she was 10 when she had this done to her?

NNL: Yes.

AMT: How old was she when she got married?

NNL: I think about 13.

AMT: 13?

NNL: Yeah, but she left school immediately. She stayed at home and then when she was about 13, she got married.

AMT: Did the two of you talk about this together before this happened?

NNL: At that time, we were discussing with my sister because even her, she wanted to continue with her education. She never wanted to be circumcised and you know being married and all that. That's not the life she wanted, but because she saw I was younger than her and we were beaten, I think she just said, let me undergo so that they leave you. So she never wanted, but she just did it for me.

AMT: But it was a little more complicated for you because they still wanted to cut you.

NNL: Yeah.

AMT: How did you get out of it?

NNL: So even the second time when I ran away, now I didn't go to my mother's sister's place. I went first to school, stayed there, but later on I came to my grandfather because remember school is not my home. I said I need to go and talk to my family and the first person I'll go and talk to is my grandfather.

AMT: And again this is because your mother and father have died, so your grandfather is the elder in your family.

NNL: Yes he was the elder in my family and I knew he was also respected because he's an elder by the family. So once he starts supporting me, I don't think there is anyone else who will come and you know force me to undergo the cut again.

AMT: And how did you convince him that you shouldn't have to have this?

NNL: So the first time I went to my grandfather I remember I started postponing my circumcision time. I told them give me more time so that I can have time to go to school. So I knew deep down in my heart, I don't want to undergo, but I need to push it because I need to stay in school. I came back to him again after some time because I kept on going back to him and I say I will run away, never come back and even become a street child or something. That's when he started realizing after two years, I think she's serious. Let's just give her the opportunity to go to school. When she wants to come and get circumcised, she will come. So my grandfather called my family, called my uncle and said let's leave her. Let her stay the way she wants to stay and that's how I got support from my grandfather.

AMT: And because he was an elder, they had to respect his wishes for you?

NNL: Yeah once an elder speaks in our community because they're highly respected, they give guidance to the community, you cannot go against them. Whatever what they say is final to everyone.

AMT: You were able to convince your grandfather. That's quite something because he's a very traditional man in your community. Is that your power of persuasion? Is that his openness? Was it a combination? What do you think made him agree with you?

NNL: One, I will say it's one of the greatest thing he did to me and that's why he is one of the people who keep on inspiring me throughout my journey to continue doing what I'm doing. But I will say my grandfather is one person I will say, he's a good listener. He listens and he doesn't want to see people undergoing pain, even up to now and then the other thing is that he was going to church because again in church remember circumcision is not allowed in the Bible for girls.

AMT: You make the point that when you got to the boarding school, you realized not all girls were getting circumcised, did not go through FGM. So where does the tradition come from with your Maasai community, why does it happen there?

NNL: It's not only the Maasai community that practices FGM. We have many other communities back in Kenya and Africa, which are practicing female genital circumcision or mutilation, but we all have different reasons. So to speak for the community that I come, one of the reasons in my own community is the right of passage from girlhood to womanhood. So it means that they are making you an elder. So it's like you're having a certificate for marriage. It means that you are no longer a child, you are now a grown woman. So you are ready for marriage. That's one reason. The second reason is also a way of reducing prostitution because Maasai people are cattle keepers. So when there's drought, men move with cattles from one place to another, but women and children are left back home and the only time they will come back is when there's rain and all that, there's no drought. So at one point when they went men with cattles and stayed somewhere for a few months, other men from another village realized that men from this village are not there. So they came, slept with our women, so by the time other men are coming, they found a few women there pregnant. So they said we need a way of punishing our women, so that next time when we go anywhere for some time, they just, you know they're like, they want to own them. You know they don't go around sleeping with other men.

AMT: Control.

NNL: So it was a way of reducing prostitution.

AMT: And so it was so entrenched in the tradition of the community and what you're saying is also in the boys and young men because they believed their wives had to have this done to them?

NNL: Yes.

AMT: Or they weren't worthy?

NNL: Yes.

AMT: So you were fighting all of those values when you decided to fight this?

NNL: Yes.

AMT: So how did you start to convince people, what happened?

NNL: In this work, it's about changing culture and it's about changing behaviour, which is never easy because it's a very sensitive cultural issue. So it's not something that you talk to people in a day and then they change. It takes years, because one, remember I'm a woman from this community. I'm not even allowed to talk in front of men and making it worse, I ran away from circumcision and they saw me in my own village you know because I had other challenges growing up, they are seen as a bad example. Even not having children or friends that I can play with because I was seen as that bad girl in the whole society and all that. And that's when I realized, if I'm alone this problem will continue being there. I'll be seen as the bad example. But what if we have a thousand girls like Nice, who have not undergone circumcision. More voices that can speak for other girls all over Africa, that's the only way we'll be able to make a lasting change and all that. So I went to cultural leaders because that's when I met AMREF Africa in my own place and they came to my cultural leaders. They said we need a girl and a boy who has gone to school and we want them to undergo a sexual and reproductive rights training for one week to be trained as a peer educator. And they came to my elders, but we had so many boys who have gone to school, but I was the only girl who has gone to school and that's how they chose me. So after the training, I went back to cultural leaders and I said I have a message for the younger men. But they said you are crazy, you cannot come and talk in front of men. I went back to them. I kept on going back to them for like three years until later they said now we need to listen to her.

AMT: Three years you tried to get them to speak to you and they refused every time?

NNL: Yes.

AMT: You mentioned AMREF, remind us what that is.

NNL: African Medical and Research Foundation, it's a health organization that I worked with back in Kenya.

AMT: Okay so you started working with them, even at that young age?

NNL: Yes.

AMT: So how old were you when you finally got an audience with the elders?

NNL: I think at that time I was 17, 17 years. That's when they actually started listening to me. And when now I was able to convince young men, I used them to reach the cultural leaders together. But at the same time, I was talking to women in my village, I was talking to girls in my village, I was talking to circumcised and older women and everyone. And that's how in my own village for the first time we were able to come up together, as a community, and we were able to start an alternative rite of passage movement, where we are simply saying, let's retain the good part of our culture because we have so much that is good in our culture, that we don't have to do away with. And in the whole process of circumcision, what we hate is the cut. All the rituals, blessings from cultural leaders, people dressing in their traditional clothes, us dancing and singing our beautiful songs, it's not harmful, it's good.

AMT: So before we talk more about the alternative ceremony, I just want to go back to what you did to convince people. When you first started talking to other girls your age and to the women who had already gone through FGM, what kind of reaction did you get?

NNL: You see any time you are starting to work a community or when we want start to raise awareness on issues of female genital mutilation or even issues of child marriage, you can never start with that topic because it's very sensitive. So we'll start discussing maybe development of the community or maybe the importance of girl child and boy child education. We also have many other topics on sexual and reproduction right issues that we start tackling because remember, men in this community, as long a girl has undergone circumcision, they're allowed to have multiple sexual partners. And as a girl because culture is saying this is oh you should be, you cannot say no. You can't say no, you have to accept. So it's important for you to also tackle HIV and AIDS topic with these men, importance of condom usage and all those things. So as you're doing other topics, that's when you see if the dialogue is becoming open. When you see now it's open, you start bringing out sensitive issues like you know female genital mutilation and its effects.

AMT: Were the women that you talked to then, were they in favor of their daughters not going through this then? Did they want their daughters to be spared?

NNL: Yes, not all of them because it takes time for people to understand what I was saying, but at least I started getting a good support from women first, that was saying enough is enough. We don't wan't to see this pain anymore, we want our girls to have the right to education.

AMT: And I would imagine the conversation with the men would vary depending on their ages, but tell me a little bit about the kinds of conversations you would be able to have eventually with teenage boys and older men. How did you bring them around?

NNL: The conversation will be different when I'm talking to men who are like 25, from the age of 25 to 35 and all that because now these men are the ones who are waiting for these girls to be married and to be circumcised, so that they can marry them.

AMT: That's right and they still have that attitude that that's what they need.

NNL: And they still have that attitude like i cannot marry a girl who has not undergone circumcision. So it's equally important first to even convince them so because if you don't convince them girls also need assurance, they'll be like if you don't agree to undergo the cut, then who will marry us and all that. So it's important also to talk to these men and make them understand what problem does these female genital mutilation even causes to you know when they're having intercourse with their partners and all that because these are some of the things they know, they see, but sometimes they don't probably get to understand that one of the reasons is because of you know female genital mutilation that was done to them. So sexuality or sex is one of the interesting topics, again the pain that these women, it's causing to these women is one of the topics that is really interesting to the young warriors and it's one of the things that we used to change them, but another thing is also use of videos. We have FGM videos that we show men because remember they don't know how circumcision is down for girls or women because they are not allowed to be there. They don't even know. They just know that a girl has undergone circumcision. They don't know where it's cut or what is being done to them. And once they see these video, that's when they see the pain that these girls undergo. And that's when they start saying I'll not allow my daughter or I'll not allow my sister to undergo the same. So I think video is one of the powerful tools also that we've been able to use.

AMT: That is so interesting and so you got them to the point where they were willing to accept alternate ceremonies. So you have the ceremony, you just don't have the cutting?

NNL: Yes.

AMT: And you celebrate women coming of age, you do all of that still. Tell me a little bit more. Does that ceremony, how often does that ceremony happen?

NNL: We do the ceremony three times a year because that's when circumcision happens. Circumcision mostly happen on the months of April, August and December. So that is the time that we also have our alternative rites of passage ceremonies and trainings, whereby we bring girls from different villages together. They undergo a three-day training on sexual and reproductive rights issues, issues of you know importance of education, effects of FGM and child marriage, teenage pregnancies and then on the last days, now when the community comes together because all of them they have awareness. We've been training them for years because it's a whole process, it takes like four years to get there. So on the actual day of the ceremony, what are we simply saying, let's impress the good part of our culture. We are only replacing the cut with education because we cannot make any change if we are not investing in education for our girls the same way we're investing in the education for boys. And I don't think it's only on issues of female genital mutilation, but any form of gender-based violence, I think education is the is the way to go. It is equally important.

AMT: Yeah and that's extraordinary because you found a way in. Once you're in and having the discussion, you change even more things for women and men. How big is the Maasai community in Kenya?

NNL: The Maasai community in Kenya, the total population is about 2 million, but we also have the Maasai community in Tanzania who are the majority because we are one, like about three million. And that's why in our alternative rites of passage now, we are both working in the Maasai community in Kenya and Tanzania because our culture is the same and that's how we've been able to reach over 16,000 girls.

AMT: I was just going to ask you, how many girls have not been cut because of this work?

NNL: We've been able to reach over 16,000 girls who are now women without the cut. But that said, there's a lot to be done yet because remember in each year, over 2 million girls are still at risk of undergoing female genital mutilation. So we are now trying to see how we can scale up to other African countries and see how we can make better change and make sure that we are saving our girls and make sure that all of them are free from FGM by 2030.

AMT: The key is that it's coming from within inside. It's not people from other countries saying what you're doing, you are bad people, it's saying there's another way to think about. You're hurting us.

NNL: Yeah.

AMT: Yeah. It's extraordinary. It's incredibly hopeful that you can make that kind of change.

NNL: It is. And there is hope for Africa. That's how I see it because right now we are in the process, I'm still mentoring more girls, more voices. Now I'm not doing it alone. We have cultural leaders who are coming up as champions, defending the rights of their grandchildren and girls. We now have more men who are coming up agreeing to marry uncircumcised ladies, who are now speaking up. We have women who are joining me. We have young girls who are coming up. So the 16,000 girls I've also been able to reach is not my effort only. It's a combined effort from all these community members who are now doing it day and night. They are not sleeping and these are the people that need support, so that they are able to scale up these work to other places.

AMT: How old are you now?

NNL: I'm 27 and soon turning 28.

AMT: So it's been 20 years, since this really became you're aware of it and you.

NNL: Yeah.

AMT: And you were so persistent. You understood how to bargain with your grandfather. You waited until the elders would see you. It's extraordinary what you've done and I know you're saying other people are working with you and what you've done collectively, but even what you've done by yourself. So why do you think you had the will and the courage, not only to speak up for yourself as a little girl, but to keep speaking up? Why do you think you did that?

NNL: One of the things to remember someone else, that is my sister, sacrificed herself to undergo circumcision, so that I'd be left out. So where I am today it's because one person cared for me. My grandfather also supported me and that's why I'm like I could not do it for her, but it doesn't mean I have to keep quiet. I have others sisters all over Kenya and Africa who are still undergoing the same thing and I don't want to see any one of them undergoing the cut. And then also even in my journey, running away is not a solution or fighting with your family. We all love our families. We want to be around our fathers, our mothers, our grandfathers and all that. So I wanted to come up also with a way that involves the whole community to be part of the change because we also have girls with disabilities, who are blind, who cannot walk, where will they run to? So we need a sustainable solution whereby our parents, our community is understanding, that we are not just girls. We also matter and that's why whenever I see the 16,000 girls in school, they give me more power and more energy and that's why I keep on doing what I'm doing right now.

AMT: Where is your sister now?

NNL: She's still in my village. We are all there with her. She's a mother of three sons. Yeah, I have three nephews.

AMT: And you're talking to them as well, aren't you?

NNL: They're my best friends, my sister and my grandfather.

AMT: I'm just wondering when you see the women who you have grown up with, who have been able to escape the cut and whose fathers have agreed that they don't want that for their daughters. I'm just wondering how that makes you feel when you see that? You lost your own father very young, but when you see that kind of protectiveness turned the other way. What do you think?

NNL: If I see the ones who were after me, the younger girls, all of them are now in school. They're enjoying, so that means they have people who are caring. They are parents. Their fathers are supporting them to be where they are today. So I'm seeing a lot of change happening and I've seen like the enrollment of girls in schools have really gone up. So a lot of change is really happening and I'm seeing male support a lot. I'm seeing fathers supporting their daughters. I'm seeing cultural leaders supporting these you know daughters from these villages. I'm seeing everyone coming up and saying enough is enough, we need to do something for our girls.

AMT: What do you see in your own future? Do you want to get, you're already politically involved. Where do you see yourself going with all of this?

NNL: Right now, two things that I'm supposed to do and one of the things I'm doing now is we are building a leadership academy for the girls, for training young leaders. It's called A Nice Play. So it will be nurturing talents here, we'll be mentoring girls on leadership skills. We don't want them to learn later, we want them to start learning when they are young. It will also be a place, like an entrepreneurial training center, whereby women will be trained on different economic activities, so that they are able to take care of their families and after that I'm going to politics because that's where the power is. That's where you have the power to gain for the rights of these women and girls back in parliament in Kenya.

AMT: That's very encouraging to hear and you're very inspiring to talk to.

NNL: Thank you so much.

AMT: It's really great to have your voice on our program and thank you for using your voice. It's an honour to have you here.

NNL: Thank you so much for having me.

AMT: Nice Nailantei Leng'ete, remember her name. Nice Nailantei Leng'ete, she's an activist campaigning against female genital mutilation. She now works with the organization AMREF Health Africa, speaking to me in our Toronto studio. We'll put her picture up on our Twitter feed. We are @TheCurrentCBC and you can find it on my Instagram @AMTremonti. That's our program for today. Stay with Radio One for Q. Tom Power is honouring the legacy of Stan Lee today, the chief writer and director of Marvel Comics, who died yesterday. Now earlier we were talking about Raven Wilkinson, the trailblazing black ballerina who toured the U.S. in the 1950s. We're going to leave you with a little more from her. This is from the 2016 documentary, Black Ballerina, Raven Wilkinson describing the first time she saw ballet as a little girl. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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VOICE: The light just comes into a glow on the gold curtain and the conductor picks up his baton and the rousing music of Coppelia starts. And I started crying because it was so exciting. It was so wonderful. And that, it was overwhelming. And then on my ninth birthday, it was a present, my first ballet lesson. Everyone wanted to dance in Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo. They had every year a huge audition, everybody came. I was never accepted. One of the young men in the school had been a friend, took me aside and he said, the next audition was coming up. He said, don't, don't take that audition because you just will never get in the Ballet Russe. They can't take you in that company because they travel. I was extremely disappointed because I realized this thing has come up now and I'm really heeding the truth and I said to myself well you certainly aren't going to get anywhere if you sit down and feel sorry about the situation or feel sorry for yourself. You have to keep going. So I got, with my toe shoes and my little purse and my little ballet skirt and went off to the audition any way. Serge Denham, the director, he stood up with he, he said, how would you like to become a member of the Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo.

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Nov. 13, 2018 episode transcript

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