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The Current Transcript for November 2, 2018

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

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Prologue

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Freedom of speech. That is something being heard recently in Saudi Arabia, with the numerous arrest of journalists and intellectuals, that's something we do not need.

LAURA LYNCH: Haunting words from the late Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi, himself killed, one month ago inside his country's consulate in Istanbul. Today, on this U.N. International Day to End Impunity for Crimes against Journalists, his fiancé is urging that those who are ultimately responsible for his death be brought to justice. Justice for journalists murdered for doing their jobs, up first today. After that:.

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It's because I've had to hear about and watch so many people leave the company after experiencing mistreatment and harassment. And that seem women to be unable to get promotion until they wither and leave.

LL: They left their desks walked away from their computers and went out into the streets in protest. Thousands who worked for Google around the world including here in Canada say the tech giant is ignoring the need to change to ensure female employees are protected, promoted and value as the Me Too movement moves into Silicon Valley. And, in an hour:

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I'm a black man in a conservative white man's household in what we call God's country. If I by bolt leave the room within my human rights to do that.

LL: R.J. Young fell in love with a white woman but her parents came with the package and that meant meeting her dad who was quick to proudly show him his gun collection. And that started Young's journey through America's gun culture and what it means for black and white people in the United States. I'm Laura Lynch and this is the Friday edition of The Current.

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Sister of slain Maltese reporter fights to end impunity for journalists killed for their work

Guests: Corinna Vella, Elizabeth Witchel

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INTERVIEWER: Would you like to speak to Mohamed Bin Salman?

HATICE CENGIZ: I do not have a demand or desire to speak to any particular individual. My demand is to identify old those responsible and for them to be made accountable.

LL: That was Jamal Khashoggi fiance Hatice Cengiz is speaking with the BBC earlier this week. The slain Saudi journalist will be on the minds of many on this United Nations International Day to End Impunity for Crimes against Journalists. His case garnered global attention, but most don't. In the past 12 years more than 1000 journalists around the world have been killed for doing their work. That's about one death every four days and in nine out of 10 cases the killers go unpunished. Daphne Caruana Galizia was killed by a car bomb outside her home in Malta just over a year ago. She had been reporting on high level political corruption, and despite some arrests in her case, many believe the masterminds remain at large. Corinne Vella is her sister and we have reached her in Lija, Malta. Hello.

CORINNE VELLA: Hello. Good afternoon.

LL: Can you tell us about your sister's work as a journalist? What motivated her in her reporting?

CORINNE VELLA: It was a commitment to telling the truth. You know people often criticize what she wrote. But she really was committed to telling things as she saw them. I can't remember when it began precisely but she was in her early 20s when she started to write her column. And then when the Internet came along she started up her own blog and became extremely successful, you know, reaching out hundreds of thousands of people a day in a country that was fewer than half a million people.

LL: What exactly was she reporting on before her death?

CORINNE VELLA: Precisely, you know, several stories but largely they involve corruption involving government officials and dubious deals that the government had signed with the shady organizations in other countries. They were ongoing stories. It's not like she had a story it was ready done and dusted and published. She blogged. So she produced information as she found it. And that obviously irritated somebody somewhere.

LL: And she'd been reporting on this over the course of months, or even years?

CORINNE VELLA: Yes, her work really took off as an investigative journalist over the last few years. I mean most notoriously she published a story about a minister who was mentioned in the Panama Papers. That ministers stayed in office. She also reported that the Prime Minister's chief of staff, it was also mentioned the Panama Papers. He's still in office. And you know the ongoing impunity that eventually you know created a climate where murder was possible.

LL: How has the government responded to your sister's murder?

CORINNE VELLA: They constantly said that they want to leave no stone unturned. But one year, more than a year later, there's been no move in the investigation. They seem to have expected it to end once three men were arrested in December last year. But they are clearly not the masterminds and nothing's moved since then.

LL: Well who was arrested them? Tell us about them.

CORINNE VELLA: Three of us three low level suspects. People my sister never wrote about. I doubt she even existed. Very unlikely they read anything she wrote. There's no obvious motive for connecting them with her work. They are not people she knew at all. So very clearly there is a mastermind behind them and that person hasn't been found. Daphne wrote about you know corruption at the highest levels. Now whatever she wrote about might have touched somebody fall down the food chain. But it really is a bit odd to connect those men directly to her. There is no obvious motive between them and her for them to kill her.

LL: Who do you think is responsible, is this mastermind?

CORINNE VELLA: There would have been- it's definitely somebody connected to her work. And you know in countries like Italy where people know what it's like to live on a police escort because of organized crime and so on. You know immediately somebody is home and people connected to their work. It is very obvious to me that it is something connected to Daphne's work. I mean there's no reason to want her dead. Well you wouldn't randomly decide to go and blow up somebody outside their home in a spectacular act of impunity in broad daylight on an ordinary Monday afternoon, just because you know you don't like them and it's not totally unconnected with anything they might be doing. It's very definitely connected to her work somehow.

LL: Beyond the murder itself there's also been misinformation shared about me. Can you tell me about that?

CORINNE VELLA: Yes absolutely. There's been a lot, from the very first day when we were in a period of confusion, when we didn't know what was happening. We know this was a constant push to put out the theory that she was investigating fuel smuggling. She never investigated fuel smuggling. I know that for certain. I even asked people who actually have investigated fuels smuggling. There was obviously an attempt to put about that theory for whatever reason. But it was a very obvious push and then when that didn't succeed because we pushed back on all these and all the misinformation, other stories started to merge. All the questions about her son being colluding with the bombers, her husband being implicated, and with horrendous stories. And if you trace them back far enough you'd find people somehow around government. And you need to ask what motive could they possibly have in putting about that kind of misinformation. The most horrendous kind.

LL: And what's your answer to your own question then? What's the motive for this?

CORINNE VELLA: Well definitely it's upsetting somebody who's in an influential position. Somebody somewhere, it's hard to tell who, is obviously upset about what Daphne was exposing. She was trying to get a different strands of stories and might have overlapped at some point, but people in the middle of the tangled web very definitely knows who they are, could probably see her coming. Who [unintelligible] that is for the investigation to find out that their job. What I do know for certain is that nobody she was writing about has been interrogated.

LL: What kind of message does it send? The government's inaction, what kind of message is that sending to journalists?

CORINNE VELLA: Let's say if I were an investigative journalist right now Daphne’s murder would have really unnerved me because of what it means. And the fact that the government is not moving to [unintelligible] was protecting journalists is even more unnerving. It obviously has no interest in protecting journalists because the one thing government can do directly, as opposed to allowing other people to do, is to set up a public inquiry and investigate whether Daphne's life could have been saved. That very inquiry would also teach government lessons about what needs to be done to protect journalists the day. And it hasn't been done.

LL: Is there any sense that government would call an inquiry, a public inquiry?

CORINNE VELLA: Well they've moved from rubbishing it outright to saying it's not a matter of 'if' but 'when'. But you notice there's no definite timeline and the pressure is on to actually holding the inquiry immediately. And they've refused to do that. They've refused to do that immediately. They've ruled out all kinds of excuses or justifications but they have not said outright we're not going to do this. We'll just do it when we're ready, when the other inquiries are ready.

LL: I can hear the frustration in your voice and I just wonder what would justice for Daphne look like to you?

CORINNE VELLA: Well to begin with it's just a full on murder and that means everybody involved without fear or favour. But more importantly in the long run and for everybody's safety, it also means ending impunity for all the crimes she exposed. It really is clear. There's been an escalation of threats against her. And the impunity for the crimes she exposed enabled her murder, creating the climate where is entirely possible. Now all the crimes she exposed, all the people she's exposed they have gone unpunished. And until those people are punished, everybody is at risk. You know her case is seen as emblematic in Europe. Impunity in her case means that everything gets more dangerous for everybody across Europe. Because it means criminals can literally get away with murder.

LL: Corinne Vella I'm sorry for the loss of your sister. I thank you for making the time to talk to us today.

CORINNE VELLA: And I thank you for listening.

LL: Corinne Vella is the sister of Daphne Curuana Galizia an investigative reporter who was killed by a car bomb in 2017. We reached Ms. Vella in Lija, Malta. Well the Committee to Protect Journalists or the CPJ has been tracking how well countries have been doing around the globe in going after the killers of journalists. Every year it releases its findings in a report called The Global Impunity Index. Elizabeth Witchel is the campaign against impunity consultant for the CPA and she joins me from the town of West Kirby in England. Hello.

ELIZABETH WITCHEL: Hi.

LL: You were listening to Corinne Vella and you, like me, I'm sure you heard that frustration in her voice. How common is the kind of government inaction that she describes?

ELIZABETH WITCHEL: Unfortunately it is all too common. As you noted before we see in around 90 percent of the cases of journalists who've been murdered, and murdered specifically in connection what we believe is a connection to their work, there is no conviction takes place. No suspects are fully prosecuted and jailed. So what we so often see is very much what we just heard that the investigation doesn't always take into full account the journal work, that it does not to pursue the masterminds which is a very very key piece of addressing impunity. What I fear and hope will not happen in Daphnes case that even when arrests are made a lot of times you know that quiets down all of the grass roots and international pressure around that case. So you see arrests happen and maybe within a year those people get released on some sort of technicality or the investigation tapers out. And so we just see this pervasive impunity happening. And it happens in many many countries in many cases unfortunately.

LL: Yes you've seen the CPJ just released its latest impunity index. Tell us first of all what does the index measure?

ELIZABETH WITCHEL: So we look at the number of cases of where journalists have been murdered and nobody has been prosecuted - and prosecuted we mean there's been a complete trial and a conviction of a suspect. And these are cases that we have found, what we think are links to the journalist's work and that's why they were targeted. We do have a threshold of five cases or more within the last decade. And then we take the number of cases journalists murdered with complete impunity and we divide that by population. So that's how we achieve the ranking of countries where we see having what we call the high rates of impunity, journalists’ murderers.

LL: Let's make sure we understand our terms here. When you're talking about murder you're talking about looking at what the journalist's work was and whether they were specifically targeted. So the overall numbers of journalists who die on the job then are actually much higher.

ELIZABETH WITCHEL: Yes they are although the truth is the majority of journalists killed around this world are in fact murdered. But the overall number of journalists killed is indeed higher. So if you count journalists who were killed in crossfire or other dangerous assignments then you then you have a higher number.

LL: Who are the journalists then that are typically targeted?

ELIZABETH WITCHEL:We see these as journalists who are telling stories, expressing views or sharing voices that individuals with power, power through influence or power through arms or wealth don't want to be told. So you have journalists like Daphne who are exposing corruption. You have journalists who are reporting on human rights abuses by either official militaries or paramilitaries or banned or armed groups. You have journalists who are commentators who have been targeted for commentating against a government or ruling power or party.

LL: Would you put party would you put Jamal Khashoggi in that category then?

ELIZABETH WITCHEL: Yes I would. And there's other cases as well. There's a journalist in India killed last year for being very outspoken against Hindu nationalism in India. So there are a wide range. And yes I would put Jamal on that category.

LL: For the last four years Somalia has been the worst ranking country in the impunity index and we spoke with Mohammed Ibrahim Moalimuu. He's covered news and politics in Mogadishu for 15 years including for outlets like the BBC and Reuters. And he's also the secretary general of the National Union of Somali Journalists. Listen to how he describes the challenges that journalists face in that country.

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Working in Somalia as a journalist is a life and death. All the time we look behind when we are getting out from house. We don't go and come back our place is in the same route. If somebody calls us inthe [uninelligible] in a public place, we even don't respond. We don't even look behind. And we don't respond the phone if somebody calls us because of security. So Somalia really even though the situation is improving now, all those people who kill journalists who were [unineliigible] actually trace it nobody knows. And the government remains silent. And all this year three journalists were killed. One of them was killed by a policeman and the policeman was not caught. So you imagine he was standing up when he was a soldier who was at that time in the service. And then they said that the culprit or the man behind the killing of the journalist. It's not normal. So that's why we wanted the Somali leaders to do more to end impunity and crimes against journalists.

LL: How typical is Mr. Moalimuu's experience beyond Somalia?

ELIZABETH WITCHEL: Beyond Somalia I would say, the dangers in Somalia are the kind of daily dangers that these faces are severe compared to some countries but they're definitely not- It's definitely not isolated. So what he describes journalists are forced to take a high level of daily safety precautions. You know changing-- just the sense of fear that-- In some of the countries on our lists; you look at Pakistan and Afghanistan and of course Somalia and Iraq. You know journalists are targeted in many different ways. So you see extremist groups that might be targeting journalists but then you do also see people from the authorities within the authority structure also targeting the journalist. The journalists feel this sense of the multi, getting it from all sides. The risks are there are so many fronts. And then in terms of impunity, absolutely you just you just see this lack of investigation take place and this lack of interest in pursuing the crime.

LL: Okay, Somalia, countries like that are one thing but there are also a number of countries listed in the impunity index that have strong stable governments. So what contributes to impunity in those places?

ELIZABETH WITCHEL: So I think when we look at impunity there, it's pretty one of the first indications of why the success I think is to look at what some of these journals are covering. And in those countries you see in Brazil and the Philippines you have journalists that are either looking at corruption or they're criticizing government officials. So I think that you can draw a line that certainly at least on a very local level. Many of the killings are taking place in provincial areas. So you can see that there is a kind of power structure there that would not perhaps want to see the crimes solved. And then you also have countries like Mexico where journalists are targeted by very very powerful armed criminal groups.

LL: Some governments are beginning to investigate cases that have been unsolved for a long time. In Gambia, where there were a number of high profile murders of journalists, a new Commission announced last month to investigate the killings, disappearances and torture of journalists under the previous regime. And the government is also going to be compensating the families of three journalists. Those families are receiving between 50,000 and 200,000 dollars U.S. What do you think of the idea of reparations for addressing impunity?

ELIZABETH WITCHEL: I think it`s no substitute for justice but I also know many families of journalists have been killed, and I think that's their sense of isolation and desperateness in that context, it's a positive step. And it can I think go far to powering and adding momentum for what I hope will ultimately be full investigations that's truly do bring justice.

LL: Given everything we've been talking about. We have about 30 seconds left. I'm wondering how much hope you have that Jamal Khashoggi's killers will be brought to justice.

ELIZABETH WITCHEL: Well I've been doing this for at least 10 years. So I wouldn't be doing it if I wasn't hopeful, in general even though the data tells me year after year perhaps my hopes somewhat mislaid. But I do think that if we can sustain the level of international pressure we're seeing now, and if we can ensure that countries like the governments of the US don't back off based on financial concerns or other issues, we may well see resolution.

LL: We'll leave it there. Elizabeth Witchell thank you thank you. Elizabeth Witchel is the campaign against impunity consultant for the Committee to Protect Journalists. And we reached her in West Kirby, England. Well the CBC News is coming up next. Then, after thousands of Google workers walked off the job yesterday to protest against a sexist work culture, we're asking how Canada's tech sector compares. Plus an update on efforts to save the dwindling South Selkirk herd of mountain caribou. I'm Laura Lynch. You're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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How B.C. biologists plan to save South Selkirk caribou from extinction

Guest: Bob Keating

LL: Hello I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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LL: Still to come, R.J. Young is an African-American activist and author whose life took a turn he simply wasn't expecting. After falling in love with a white woman named Lizzie she met her father who is a big fan of guns. That led R.J. to begin his own personal quest to explore white America's gun culture. His story in half an hour. And later this half hour, sexism in Silicon Valley and the Canadian tech sector. But first a Hail Mary play to save the species.

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We have heard for a while that the census's were not going well for the South Selkirk herd and for other herds, and we have been you know in touch with the ministry over the last days and weeks to see if the situation was improving. And it was confirmed for us late yesterday that they don't believe there are any more than three animals in the South Selkirk herd now, and that the only animals they were able to find were females.

LL: That was this spring when we last checked in on the South Selkirk herd of the once mighty mountain caribou. There were three animals left then. Now there are just two. The South Selkirk mountain caribou herd is the last to move freely between the United States and Canada. And as we heard in April, from Candace Batycki of the Yellowstone to Yukon Conservation Group, the herd is dangerously close to experiencing a local extinction or an extirpation, as scientists call it. But there is a new and bold plan in place. This winter British Columbia biologist will remove those two remaining females as well as the last four caribou from the other remaining herd in the area, in a final effort to save the species. The CBC's Bob Keating is back with us to explain from Nelson B.C. Hi Bob.

BOB KEATING: Hi Laura.

LL: What do biologists plan to do this winter?

BOB KEATING: What they'll do is they'll fly over the two southerly most mountain caribou herds in Canada when those caribou move up to the high country in the deep snow. And trained biologists will net these animals from a helicopter, scoop them up and fly them to a maternity pen. This is literally a fenced off pen in the bush near Revelstoke to try to keep these caribou away from predators. So they'll fly about 200 kilometres north of their traditional range.

LL: Okay this sounds really unusual. What's the point of it? Why are they doing it?

BOB KEATING: Because these two herds the South Selkirk and South Purcell herds are perilously close to extirpation. That means they're going to disappear completely from their range in the US. It's like extinction down in the States. In the case of the Selkirk herd there's only two animals left and they're both cows, both females. In the south Purcell's there's three bulls and one cat. So obviously, Laura, they know that's not sustainable. In the case of the South Selkirk herd, it's biologically impossible for them to survive because as I said there's two females. So what they're going to do is go in and get them, as soon as it's safe to do so, take them deep into the bush north of Revelstoke into this fenced in pen.

LL: This sounds pretty desperate.

BOB KEATING: It is desperate, desperate times. I talked to lead biologist Leo DeGroot about these desperate plans for caribou. Listen to part of that conversation, Laura.

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LEO DEGROOT: The plan is to capture those remaining six animals this winter and hold them there. Further to that they could then be released into the Columbia North population. Or they could be held for a future captive breeding project, at least the females.

BOB KEATING: That seems like a pretty extreme measure.

LEO DEGROOT: It is extreme but I guess we're at that point.

BOB KEATING: The hope is what? What's the end goal?

LEO DEGROOT: First off is to put these remaining six animals into a safer place. Obviously these southern in populations are not a safe place right now with the drastic declines in the last year and a half. So the first priority is to move them to a safer place and then the eventual captive breeding project will be to provide a source of other animals to bring into the populations in the future. Back to the Kootenay boundary and perhaps back toward trans boundary situation, yet perhaps those decisions will we have to be made later depending on they. And as I said this is several years away for other animals to release and we can't predict now would be the best choice at that time.

LL: So Bob he brings up a point I want to follow up on. The two caribou that range around Salmo are the last two that actually go into the United States. Are conservation groups okay with that? And are Americans? This is kind of like a forest extirpation.

BOB KEATING: That's exactly what it is. They're purposely removing a species from the lower United States. Mountain caribou, Laura, are the most endangered mammal in America already. And these two lonely animals near me are the last two that range down into Idaho and Washington. But they figure what choice do they have. The Kalispel tribe of Washington has done most of the U.S. work trying to revive caribou because it's an animal they used to rely on for their very survival. Now they know there's only two left around Nelson, where I am, and four north of Kimberley. So this is the only option and they know it. I chatted with Mike Lithgow at the Kalispel tribe this week. He told me it's move them or let them blink out, as he put it. So they're in favor of this capture they don't like it but they know it has to be done. Conservation groups feel the same way. I talked to two environmental groups this week. I want you to listen to one conversation. This is Candace Batycki of the Yellowstone to Yukon Conservation Group.

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CANDACE BATYCKI: We have got to the point where the measures are so drastic. It's hard to be enthusiastic about any of them. I am not surprised that these animals are being taken out of the habitat. We have a long term project ahead of us to protect and restore that habitat to the point where it will support caribou again someday.

BOB KEATING: Is that your hope, that they will do some rearing of Caribou in captivity and bring them back?

CANDACE BATYCKI: It's tricky with caribou. The numbers are so low now that it's difficult to make enough caribou that actually know how to survive in these mountains. But that is the long term hope and we have to keep that hope alive.

BOB KEATING: We're talking about extirpation in the US to do it.

CANDACE BATYCKI: The herd is functionally extirpated now with two females. They are basically the walking dead. This is a last ditch effort. I think the question we have to ask ourselves is how did we let it get to such a sad state.

LL: That is a good question Candace poses. How did it get to this point?

BOB KEATING: Yeah biologists don't really know 100 percent. These caribou, they just start dying off. Both of these herds looked pretty healthy even a decade ago. The South Selkirk herd was about 50 animals and the South Purcell even stronger than that. Then they just started dying. There are theories out there. One, snowmobiles began accessing the high country where caribou seek refuge and where they calve and the sled tracks laid by the snowmobiles are convenient roads to predators like wolves and cougars who could then access these caribou and get an easy meal. That's one theory. Old growth lichens are their main diet. Conservationists think logging of old growth has been hard on caribou. Climate change is another theory may be playing a role here but there's no definitive answer to that question either. All they know is that caribou are dying off in their Southern Range in B.C. and in Alberta, and they're dying off mass and it's very concerning. Keep in mind these are the oldest terrestrial mammal owner and now they're dying. After this project there will be no caribou in the lower 48 as we said and they're in deep trouble in B.C. and that worries a lot of people out here.

LL: But what makes biologists think these caribou will survive in a pen?

BOB KEATING: They don't know. They don't know that they'll survive in a pen. They just know that leaving them alone is dooming them. So this you could say is a bit of a biological Hail Mary pass. The plan is to try to captive breed the caribou once they pick them up and take them up near Revelstoke, rearing young and captivity is what the plan is. And hopefully someday they hope to re-establish caribou in the southern Kootenay. Captive breeding is new, Laura. They've done it with other species and they hope it works with carob. That's up to the caribou. But for now they know they will disappear completely from the southern landscape if they don't do something.

LL: And they just hope that by putting them in a pen together Mother Nature will take its course.

BOB KEATING: Yes and the caribou will do their thing if you know what I mean.

LL: Okay, well when will they attempt to actually capture the animals?

BOB KEATING: As soon as it's safely possible. When the snow is good and deep up in the high country here where I live that's when it's best and safest for the caribou. But they want to do as soon as possible. There were three caribou left near the Selmo herd in the South Selkirk but a cougar already killed one. They're down to two and they know it's only a matter of time before they're completely wiped out. So they want to get them as soon as it's safely possible.

LL: It just seems so urgent. I appreciate you giving us the update Bob and I'm sure we'll hear from you again.

LL: Thank you.

BOB KEATING: You're welcome.

LL: Bob Keating is a CBC reporter in Nelson in the southern interior of British Columbia. You are listening to the Friday edition of The Current on CBC Radio One I'm Laura Lynch.

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Tough to tackle sexism, harassment in tech world with 'narcissistic men' at the top: lawyer

Guests: Takara Small, Barbara Lawless

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LL: Well from Toronto to Tokyo San Francisco to New York, employees of one of the tech world's most celebrated companies walked out in protest yesterday.

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It is absolutely disgusting that anyone thinks that you can be negligent about such assault, such harassment, abuse of power inequities access every pillar that we have, to no consequence. We will bring the consequences. [Cheers] Each of you...

LL: That is Demmer Rodriguez head of equity engineering at Google New York billed as the Walkout for Real Change. The protest came on the heels of media reports of sexual misconduct allegations against Google executive Andy Rubin. Despite facing credible allegations Mr. Rubin reportedly received a 90 million dollar severance package in 2014 and he denies the allegation. But Google CEO Sundar Pichai apologized for the company's quote "past actions". In an e-mail sent to employees on Tuesday. My first guest has spent decades tackling sexism in Silicon Valley. Barbara Lawless is a Litigator specializing in sexual harassment and discrimination. She is a partner in the firm of Lawless and Lawless in San Francisco and that's where we reached her. Hello.

BARBARA LAWLESS: Hello. How are you today Laura?

LL: Fine, thank you very much. I'm wondering what you thought about the walk yesterday.

BARBARA LAWLESS: Well I thought it was absolutely a very good move. Women should be doing more of this kind of thing to expose the horrific situation that companies are putting them in when they pay their harassers to leave.

LL: Now these employees have very specific demands and one of them is an end to forced arbitration. What is that?

BARBARA LAWLESS: Okay, arbitration. I know you're in Canada and you have a very good court system in Canada as we do usually in the States. But we have a constitutional right to a jury trial in the United States which can be brokered away by contract. And arbitration agreements or agreements which companies very often require new employees to sign at the time that they are employed.

LL: And they say what? That you can't go to court if there is a certain kind of dispute?

BARBARA LAWLESS: They say that you give up your right to a jury trial in any dispute you have with your employer, be it sexual harassment, be about equal pay, be about your treatment at work, shall be decided by arbitration.

LL: And what is the problem with that?

BARBARA LAWLESS: The problem is you're, the employee is, giving up their right to a jury trial. And jury very often understand workplace situations and the power imbalance. When you give up your right to a jury trial you are going to be stuck in a situation where an arbitrator is picked from usually a list of mostly white men who have a different view of the world. And when you go to arbitration you have to abide by the decision of that one man without any right to appeal.

LL: So while this may seem like an obvious question, but why do companies use forced arbitration with their employees?

BARBARA LAWLESS: Because it's really to their advantage. They know that in most instances the arbitrator is going to be retired defense lawyers that has spent their whole career protecting companies. And even if you change who the arbitrator is it doesn't get you back to a jury trial where a group of working people who understand the workplace make a decision by consensus. It's a lot more fair to employees. And it's our system and it shouldn't be allowed in any workplace a situation, but especially in sex harassment situations for women to have to agree to be bound by an appeal bold decision.

LL: Now you worked on many cases against Silicon Valley tech companies. I'm wondering how they compare with other companies in terms of dealing with sexual misconduct and discrimination.

BARBARA LAWLESS: Well you know the start-up companies have problems and Google is a fairly new company started in 1998. And what we find here is that start-ups are very often have a cowboy culture. There are often started by young people with little experience in the corporate situation which has its pluses but it also has its minuses. And one of the horrible detriments about that is very often you will have a, for instance, a director of human resources that has a degree from a fancy Ivy League school in some kind of business, and has no real life experience in dealing with the everyday problems that happen at work, including sexual harassment. And they might come up with what they think are innovative solutions to the problem, but very often you need more experience, at least this is my take on it, to know how to wade through these things and how to take care of the situation. Being creative is not always the best way.

LL: Do you see the culture changing at all though?

BARBARA LAWLESS: Well I mean this Google situation has certainly been a major change. And even if it's true, Google statements that this Rubin was, the deal was made in '14, four years ago and I believe that Mr. Pichai said that they had not made a similar deal recently. And that they've dismissed 48 people for sex harassment in recent times. I suspect those people were lower level people because it is the ones at the top which I think are the most horrific offenses.

LL: And then there are other things beyond how they handle claims in terms of company culture. Google is a relatively young company of it's not getting all of that right. How hopeful are you that other companies will?

BARBARA LAWLESS: Well I'm hopeful that Google will start to get it right. They seem to be making an attempt. The way I view the world right now, and I still do, I wish I could be more hopeful, is that as long as you have narcissistic men heading these companies and they kind of feel they have a right to violate the rules, they you know say 'well we can disrupt cultures' and do whatever they want. Some of that has to be tempered. I think once that that is tempered it'll be a lot better but I haven't seen it. I keep seeing these men rise to the top and once they get there having this view, 'we can do whatever we want'.

LL: But is it simply a matter of putting more women in senior positions? Is that the fix in itself?

BARBARA LAWLESS: That will help. It certainly could. I know it Fireman's Fund though I had a sex harassment case and there was a woman president. So obviously it's not going to make it go away, totally. I think when we have at least 50 percent of women on corporate boards that will help. And also many more women in the workplace, 30 percent in tech companies certainly isn't enough. It's an extreme imbalance.

LL: Okay, Barbara lawless, thank you for your time.

BARBARA LAWLESS: Oh well thank you.

LL: Barbara Lawless is an employment litigator specializing in sexual harassment and discrimination. She is in San Francisco. Now we did reach out to Google but the chief executive officer wasn't available. And of course big tech is big business here in Canada. There have been efforts across the country to foster Silicon Valley style clusters of tech companies. And for a look at what the work culture is like in the Canadian tech sector I'm joined by Takara small. She is the founder of Venture Kids Canada, a non-profit that helps youth learn coding and entrepreneurship skills. She's also the host of The Globe and Mail tech podcast. I'll go first and she's with me in our Toronto studio. Hi.

TAKARA SMALL: Hi.

LL: How does the culture in the tech industry here compare with what we're hearing about in the U.S. industry?

TAKARA SMALL: Yes, I think Canada is a lot smaller. Our market is very different. For a long time people would talk about how Toronto was the Silicon Valley of the north. And we're starting to see a difference there. People are talking about how Toronto is different from Silicon Valley, why are values - some of our abilities and opportunities are very very different from what we're seeing. I think when it comes to the tech sector in general there aren't very many women. There aren't many people of color. Oftentimes I walk into a room and I'm the only person who looks like myself. So I think there's always going to be those challenges and I do think though, at least in Canada, we're seeing a lot of leaders talk about gender diversity and racial diversity. I think you have a mayor who talks about he won't be on the panel unless it's 50 percent women. I think there were a lot of great companies who are giving back to a lot of groups. I don't want to name them, but there are so many that are doing a great job about talking about it. I mean obviously talk is cheap. So we'll see what happens in the near future whether that's backed up with action. But I'm pretty optimistic.

LL: What has it been like for you, though. You talked about the fact that as a person of color there is an issue around that. And also as a woman what is it been like for you?

TAKARA SMALL: Yes I feel like - and I'm sure there are many other people of color and women who could empathize and understand - that you feel like you have to work twice as hard or go into a really quick anecdote. There's a very large tech conference that happens in the US. And recently I attended and I walked into the media room and again this is a tech conference where the majority of people are men, young men, and the women who are there tend to be booth girls. Booth girls, for those who don't understand, are women who operate booths and they engage with customers journalists etc. And I walked out of the meeting room and one of the individuals asked me why it was there. And I said I was a journalist. And she was like well who did you take that journalist pass from? And I said, excuse me. And I was like I got it from the press room. And she's just like well you don't look like a tech journalist. This was a woman who said this: you don't look like a tech journalist. I was wearing some nice heals and a Club Monaco dress. Like I looked pretty [unintelligible] up. Maybe too dressed up. I wasn't wearing the right hoodie and ripped jeans. But she couldn't believe that someone like myself was covering tech. And that's just one instance of whenever I walk into a room, or I walk in to a startup, or our tech space sometimes people immediately doubt that I'm qualified. And you have to work that much harder.

LL: Now the conversations about a problematic culture in tech, they have been going on for a long time. Why do you think progress has been so slow?

TAKARA SMALL: I think it's so slow because there isn't that there isn't the diversity that we're used to seeing in other sectors. And progress has been slow but there has been progress made. And I think for people who don't work in the sector they think oh my goodness like why are we still talking about this? Why are there so few many people of color and women who are at the top? That's because you have to fight so hard to get those positions because for a very long time the entire industry is made up of male, men who did not see any value in other voices.

LL: Now I asked Barbara Lawless whether she thought that putting more women in senior positions or on boards would be to fix it. I ask you the same question.

TAKARA SMALL: I do not. It's probably something not many people want to hear, but I do not. I feel like it's a quick fix and the reason why is because I feel like sometimes people will elevate. Well I think it's just really easy to add women to a position of power. But if they don't have any opportunity to help others below them then it doesn't really fix the problem. I think like you have to- if you want to have a woman in a position of power you have to ensure that there is system in place to help those who come after her. I think there are so many organizations now that are looking and saying, okay, we just have one woman in power that's not enough. We need to have more.

LL: Flesh it out for me. What more? What else needs to be done?

TAKARA SMALL: I think a lot of time when we talk about diversity, we think of it only as a woman. And intersectionality is an important word because it shows that if you are, for instance a white woman, you experience a lot. Your challenges are a lot different than someone who is LGBTQ and a woman.

LL: So define intersectionality, then.

TAKARA SMALL: So, yes, intersectionality is having multiple identities. So I am a woman in tech. I'm also a black woman in tech. And so I faced two different challenges: racism and sexism. And so I think when we talk about more we have to make sure that there are people who represent different identities and have different experiences. And that's just important. I always just think that's just smart money making opportunities. If you have people from different backgrounds then they'll be able to speak to those different groups and communities and make you more money. It's just common sense.

LL: So what does yesterday's walkout then tell you? What optimism does it give you that things are going to change?

TAKARA SMALL: Yes. I think the fact that we're actually talking about it is a huge deal and not something to be underestimated at all. I mean I think the fact that people are talking about this, who don't work in the tech sector the fact that this is on the front page of newspapers, says a lot about where we are as a culture, as a society, that we're not going to accept this. Also it's important to know that this deal was made a couple of years ago, about four years ago. And so I think it's important to note that since then a lot has happened. More women are coming forward.

LL: Do they talk to you too, about what's going on?

TAKARA SMALL: Oh yes.

LL: And are they telling you there is change or it is improving?

TAKARA SMALL: I have them and you are coming to me saying things are changing, not at the pace that we hope to see. I know with myself and I've experienced discrimination in the industry it can be disheartening and it makes you want to step back and quit. But I look to leaders, other women, for advice about where to go.

LL: All right we will leave it there. Takara Small, thank you very much, hope can talk to you about this as things go forward and revisit the subject. Takara Small is the founder of Venture Kids Canada and she's also the host of I'll Go First, the Globe Mail tech podcast and she was with me in Toronto. Well coming up, in our next half hour, Let it Bang. He's an author and activist and an African-American. But R.J. Young found himself embracing the gun culture of the American South. Find out why when you come back in our next half hour. I'm Laura Lynch you are listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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Black journalist RJ Young explores why guns matter to white Americans

Guest: R.J. Young

LL: I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I'm going to do a little test here if you can tell me, R.J., what you had for breakfast this morning please.

VOICE 2: I had snack ins and old orange juice, probably expired. Probably should see somebody about that.

[Song: Let it Bang by ASAP Ferg]

LL: OK. Hello.

RJ YOUNG: Hey Laura.

LL: Hi how are you?

RJ YOUNG: I'm good ma'am.

LL: Good. Oh please don't call me ma'am that makes me feel so old.

RJ YOUNG: Well I'm from Oklahoma. That's what we do.

LL: [Laughs] I know. So I read the book. It's a great book, really. Congratulations.

RJ YOUNG: Thank you so much.

LL: RJ, I've got to tell you that several years ago I went to a so-called gun owners resort. And the owner of the place wouldn't let me get access unless I'd agree to take a course in shooting an AK-47. I never thought I'd ever be holding a gun in my life. [Laughs] I did that day.

RJ YOUNG: Well can I ask you did you spray? Or were you able to keep it on target?

LL: I didn't keep it on target at all. No.

RJ YOUNG: OK. Then you're where I was. You're where I was.

LL: And you won't be surprised to know they were all white people there. So...

RJ YOUNG: Yes ma'am. They usually are.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song: Let it Band by ASAP Ferg]

LL: The name of the book, Let it Bang, is a reference to a rap song.

RJ YOUNG: Yes I took that rap song and flipped it on its head. Let it Band is ASAP Ferg's story about his uncle Psych, nicknamed Psycho. This is a man that we learn about in this story who does not care to pull out his gun to make his point. And that's the antithesis of what I believe. I would rather, if you feel that I am a threat, you shoot me because I'm not going to shoot you.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song: Let it Band by ASAP Ferg]

LL: Let it Bang is the story of your voyage into white American gun culture. And it's a journey that began as a way to connect with your wife Lizzie's family. Can you tell me about meeting Lizzie for the first time?

RJ YOUNG: I was her personal trainer. And she was not really keen on working out with me. And winning her respect was also difficult because it was not going to be won by anything that I did at a gym, which is again kind of a precursor to this book.

LL: And that eventually led to love and that led to meeting Lizzie's parents. Tell me what that was like.

RJ YOUNG: Well the first time that I met her father, Charles, he did what I did not expect anybody which would give me a gun, present me a gun. It's the kind of thing that I call self-defence porn, it's [unintelligible].

LL: Wait a second. Just take me back to that moment. So you go in the door and you say, hello sir and--.

RJ YOUNG: I shake his hand and he bolts. And there was just kind of silence there as I looked around, 'what happened?'. And before I could actually verbalize that he came back with this gun and he had it in both of his hands. He was not pointing at me. I need to emphasise that it was a trophy. He was the kind of thing that he was very proud of and he just kind of presented it to me and I took it from him knowing what a presentation is, and that's when he told me what the gun was. But not to me. To me, it's a flaming semitar. I don't I don't know what to do with this. It's burning my hands. Can I give it back now? [Chuckles] And that was my first real interaction with a person holding a gun and holding in such a way that it is quite valuable to him and it represents a large part of who he is.

LL: There's a scene in the film Get Out.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: So how long has this been going on, this thing?

LL: Where the main character, whose name is Chris, he's African-American, meets his white girlfriend's parents for the first time.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Four months.

VOICE 2: Four months?

VOICE 3: Five months, actually.

VOICE 2: She's right. I'm wrong.

VOICE 1: Ada boy. Better get used to saying that [laughs].

VOICE 3: Please I'm so sorry.

VOICE 2: Oh yes I'm sorry. She's right. I'm wrong.

VOICE 1: [Laughs] See?

LL: Could you relate to that at all?

RJ YOUNG: Yes. Except to say I am trying to eagerly impress this man. Chris is in very much the same sort of awkward situation of having to stand next to this man. It makes him somewhat uncomfortable, but he's also knows that he can't run away. He can't just stop and say 'No don't tell me that'.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 2: These have been in [unintelligible]

VOICE 1: That's pretty eclectic. I'm a traveler and I can't help but I keep bringing souvenirs back. It's such a privilege to be able to experience another person's culture.

RJ YOUNG: That I don't want to hear that. Why don't you ask me something about myself? Why don't you tell me something about yourself that does not have to do with the color of my skin. I think that is where I was. They are in that hallway and they're walking together and he just can't leave. But he's also very uncomfortable.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: ...About This. My dad's is quite the same, was beat by Jesse Owens in the qualifying round for the Berlin Olympics in 1936. This is the ones where.

VOICE 2: Always in front of him.

VOICE 1: Yeah what a moment. What a moment. Amazing.

VOICE 2: Tough break for your dad, though.

VOICE 1: Yes. He almost got over it.

RJ YOUNG: Yes that's where I was.

LL: You were coming at guns from a very different place than Charles was. Tell me about your cultural influences as a young African-American man who was growing up in the American south.

RJ YOUNG: My cultural influences, things like the things that I listed in the book like Training Day.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: What can you prove, huh? Nothing. Where's your evidence, huh?

[Sounds: Gunshots and screaming]

RJ YOUNG: Black men holding guns in powerful positions, except to say in movies.

LL: And that's why you mention Training Day which is a film starring Denzel Washington as a black cop gone, I guess, a bit rogue if I can say it that way.

RJ YOUNG: Yes.

SOUNDCLIP

Oh where oh where has my little Jake gone? Oh where oh where can he bae?

RJ YOUNG: He had a firearm and he was in charge. And that was the first time that I can remember a black man, with the gun, having everyone else's attention. Everyone had to pay attention to what he had to say and do it in a manner that he said 'do it' or there was the threat of violence. Now Alonzo's the bad guy. So as much as I loved that scene, and as much as I loved that visceral image, 16 year old me still enjoys that. There's also the counterbalance of: Yes. That's the bad guy and he's dead.

LL: You also liked watching Cops with your dad.

SOUNDCLIP

Show me your hands! Do it now! Show me your hands! Get on the ground!

RJ YOUNG: Oh I watched cops with my dad. I don't think that I liked watching it, but I did take away the lessons that he took from it himself. With your tongue in cheek, but also true, you know he's watching it to try to figure out what they're doing. And that was watching cops with my father; any way to get an advantage and to know where you stand in the world so that you can be safe.

SOUNDCLIP

Jesus. Man. What the [beep] did I do?

Well, you ran from the police.

I ran from you?

LL: We were talking earlier about your musical influences and the fact that you played off the name of a violent rap song called Let it Bang in choosing the name of your book. But rap isn't the only music that mythologizes guns in the United States, especially in the south. What other kinds of music do that?

RJ YOUNG: Country music, of which I am a fan. There's a song in the book called Granddaddy's Gun which romanticizes a great grandfather's gun.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song: Granddaddy's Gun]

RJ YOUNG: And why he would use it, and who he would use it on, and for what reasons, and for what purposes. And it's melodic and it's sweet but it's also tremendously violent, in the same way that many folks categorize rap music.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song: Granddaddy's Gun]

RJ YOUNG: How much machismo violence and masculinity play a part in a genre that many people would just think is telling drunk stories.

LL: But there seems to be a difference, right, between the between the way rap songs do this. They say they mythologize the violence. The gun and the country songs mythologize the gun culture. And when you talk about Granddaddy's Gun, it's an almost romantic. Is that an important distinction?

RJ YOUNG: Not for me. There is no difference.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song: Daddy's Gun]

RJ YOUNG: Let's go back to your father in law Charles. He was, as you could tell from your first meeting, really into guns. Can you tell me about his collection?

RJ YOUNG: Only what I saw. And what I saw was the gun that he kept for self-defence in a little satchel that he carried around, shotgun against the door, for intruders, a Glock in his truck which was his truck gun. Those are the ones that I saw. And when we were at the gun show he bought a pink 22 just because he thought it was cute. He had several. Which is par for the course in Oklahoma.

LL: And did Lizzy's share his love of guns?

RJ YOUNG: No, Lizzie I think that she was going to pick up a gun because I picked up a gun, not because her father was so insistent that she pick one up.

LL: Okay you just mentioned that Charles picked up a pink gun when you were at a gun show. And you bought your first gun at this large gun show, one of the world's largest happens to be held in Tulsa. Tell me what the show was like.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: A lot in Tulsa Oklahoma. We are at Wanamaker's Tulsa arms show.

VOICE 2: Joe we're here, at your show, the world's largest gun show. What I want to talk with you about is maybe for some people who have never been to a gun show. What do they expect when they go to a gun show?

VOICE 1: Well a gun show is primarily a--

RJ YOUNG: I was walking around with a bunch of people that didn't look like me. And that's a very difficult feeling to normalize, but it is one that I have encountered before. But in this instance every other person had a gun in their hand. But it got to be weird. Not when I saw confederate flags which I grew up with, the thing that bugged me, and that I still just haven't wrapped my head around is, the S S Nazi uniform on display for sale, because I thought we all agreed Nazis are bad. And to see that everyone else was more or less walking around like it was just part of the show, was also off putting to me. Take it down. Burn it. And that was when I was really having to ask myself, do people really hate me? People I've never met, people who have never asked me a thing, who just assume that I am bad or inferior or dangerous because of the color of my skin and the curls on my head. That is really terrifying.

LL: You did get your own gun there. What was it? What was your first gun?

RJ YOUNG: It was a Glock 26, nickname a baby Glock, that is used for self-defence concealed carry. You could actually stick it in your pocket.

LL: Why that one?

RJ YOUNG: Because I was interested in self-defence at the time. I wanted a gun for the reasons that people say that they want handguns, which is to defend themselves. And I have reached a point in my education where I kept running into this wall about 'you don't know until you shoot. You don't know until you carry'. And that was really informative for me because I end up taking that thing home, and just the weight of it and knowing this is not meant for self-defence. This has meant to kill.

LL: But you went on to learn how to shoot it. I'm wondering what it was like for you to learn to shoot. How did that gun feel in your hands when you were starting to learn to shoot?

RJ YOUNG: Powerful, which I think is the point. You have what feels like the power of God in your hands even if you're killing a piece paper. That's how it feels. And then to recognize and be reverent of that power is the most difficult thing to do. But in the manner of learning to shoot and get better I wanted to answer a fundamental question: is a good guy with a gun really better than a bad guy with a gun? And I got really pissed after I was ridiculed for a second time about my inability to shoot well, that I decided to focus to meet Master Yoda on Dagobah and say let's go to work, and really really dig into marksmanship and self-defence and know the difference and get so good that nobody can tell me shit. And that's a really tough thing to do. And I was probably a little pig headed to think that I could do it in the way that I did. But I was unflinching in practice and practicing with purpose and really all the time digging into what does it mean for me to be this good with a firearm? What can I do now?

LL: Yes. And you became not only a marksman you became an N.R.A. certified pistol instructor. Why was that important to you?

RJ YOUNG: Credentials. I want to be questioned and my ability to know what it is I'm talking about and know what it is I'm doing. And that is the way that you must encounter a conversation with a gun enthusiast. They don't care that you don't like guns if you don't have an experience. It's just different and the conversation changes.

LL: But who having to prove something to that? Is it still Charles that you have to prove something to you by getting the certification or who?

RJ YOUNG: I have something to prove to the citizens of my state where we believe in the right to carry. I have something to prove to the person in the Gun Range who asked me if I should be shooting a basketball. I have something to prove to myself that I can do this and that I can be really really good at it. And not only did I not end up where I started, I ended up more scared than if I ever knew anything at all about guns.

LL: Let's talk a little bit more about the NRA, the National Rifle Association. We know it has a loud vociferous defender of gun owners and their rights. But you argue, in the book, that the group really only defends white gun owners. And I want to ask you about the shooting death of Philando Castile in July 2016 during a routine traffic stop in Minnesota. And we just want to warn the listeners that recording is disturbing.

SOUNDCLIP

OFFICER: Do you have a licence insurance?

VOICE 1: Sir, I have to tell you, I do have a fire arm [unintelligible].

OFFICER: Okay. okay. Don't reach for it. Don't pull it out. Don't pull it out!

[Sounds: Noise, gunshots, women screaming and crying]

OFFICER: [Screaming] Don't pull it out! Don't move! Don't move!

VOICE 2: Oh my God I'm [unintelligible].

OFFICER: [Screaming] Don't move!

VOICE 2: Don't move baby.

OFFICER: [Screaming] [unintelligible].

VOICE 2: Stay with me. We got pulled over for a busted...

LL: His girlfriend actually live streamed the shooting on Facebook. Now the police officer there, Jeronimo Yanez, was acquitted of manslaughter in the shooting. But what made this different from other police involved shootings of young African-Americans?

RJ YOUNG: This man was licensed to carry a gun. That's the major difference, is he was within his rights. He was of legal age. He had complied with state and federal law. And he was going about articulating all of this to the police officer. And he was still shot. And the reason the NRA is relevant is because this is exactly the kind of incident for which they are here for. They would tell you we are here to protect your right to bear arms, legally, responsibly, and if you do that and someone still comes after you, we will be here to help you. And they were not there to help Philando or his family.

LL: Now there's something called the National African-American Gun Association and it's I guess you could sort of call it a black NRA. And it grew exponentially after the Castile shooting. What do you think of NAAGA?

RJ YOUNG: I think Naga exist because it does not conform to the politics of the NRA. Though I believe there are one line on the right to self-defence through firearm. NAAGA emphasizes safety, emphasizes instruction, training, but ultimately it emphasizes having a gun to protect yourself because there are people who might hurt you. And that's where I disagree with both the NRA and NAAGA. I wish that guns weren't the thing that we reach to in instances of discomfort or for self-defence. But I also understand that I am alone on that island.

LL: Does it surprise you though that something like Naga would not only form but grow?

RJ YOUNG: No it doesn't. Especially when we take into account the Southern Poverty Law Center's statistics on hate crimes or hate incidents that rose immediately following the election of Donald Trump. And what do people do when they're scared more often than not, they don't lean in and ask questions about what they're afraid of. They usually take measure to make themselves safe or perceived as safe.

LL: RJ let's go back to your personal story. You and Lizzie are no longer together. Your marriage ended. What happened?

RJ YOUNG: Life happened. People fall in love, they fall out of love, they find that there are differences that separate them that weren't there before. And I wrote about as much of that in the book as I could. I described a scene in which I was very upset with the Republican nominee for president, who would become president. And I yelled out that I hated white people and I never thought of Lizzy as white. I thought of her as my wife. And in that moment she yells out that she's white. And there was a schism there. There was a-there was a disconnect for which there was no reconnect. And that's where we were and it's what happens to people. I don't blame race. I don't blame guns, for sure. I say that this is the part of life that I don't get to know the correct answer for. I only know that it was done.

LL: What then do Lizzie and Charles think of your book?

RJ YOUNG: I haven't spoken to him in two years.

LL: Why?

RJ YOUNG: Because they don't want to speak to me.

LL: Do you have any sense of whether they may have seen the book through anyone else?

RJ YOUNG: No, Laura, I don't.

LL: Does it matter to you what they think?

RJ YOUNG: No. Because if it did I would pursue it.

LL: And instead you just you just let it lie.

RJ YOUNG: Sometimes that's what we have to do in life.

LL: You've spent all this time getting involved in the world of guns and the culture. Where do you fit into the gun culture now?

RJ YOUNG: I don't necessarily think there is a fit for me. I'm obviously a part of it because I participated in it and I wrote this book. But where I sit is over in the corner by myself wondering if when, how, enough people will decide that perhaps they don't need a gun. And they will want to talk. In which case I'll be over there in that corner, waiting for somebody to talk to me.

LL: Do you still have a gun?

RJ YOUNG: I have two.

LL: But you've already stated that you don't ever intend to use it for self-defence.

RJ YOUNG: Guns are nice paperweights, Laura.

LL: They are paperweights?

RJ YOUNG: They just lie in lock. The magazines in one part of the place. The guns are locked up with slide locks on them in another part of the place. And I have no need for ammunition.

LL: Guns also helped you at the same time reconnect with your mother after years of estrangement. Tell me about that.

RJ YOUNG: My mother is a odd. My mother is a African-American Trump supporter. In the years that we didn't speak my mother had gone her own gun journey. When the shooting happened in Aurora Colorado, my mother took that one especially hard because she goes to movies, or did, and she decided she was getting a gun. And yet my mother isn’t that great a shot. When I lost Lizzie and her family I was very alone, trying to begin to write this book. And I reached out to my mom who, for the first time in a very long time, was just my mom and not her politics and was working so very hard to make it mother and son. And after some feeling out my mother asked me if I would help her with her shooting because her son [unintelligible] pistol instructor and I said yes. So my mother got to show me off at the gun range as her son and I was able to help my mother with her shooting. And in that moment I had, not only won my mother's respect all over again, but I saw that she truly loved me. And that was that was a grace.

LL: R.J. Young I thank you so much for your time and your insights.

RJ YOUNG: Thank you Laura I appreciate you.

LL: Bye bye.

RJ YOUNG: Bye.

LL: R. J. Young Is a writer and the author of Let it Bang: A Young Black Man's Reluctant Odyssey into Guns. He joined us from Tulsa, Oklahoma. That is our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio 1 for Q. House of Cards show runners Melissa James Gibson and Frank policy dive into the final season of the Netflix series which starts streaming today. And just a note to follow up on a story we brought you yesterday, Photojournalist Tyler Hicks talked about a haunting portrait of a 7 year old Amahl Hussain in Yemen. Her emaciated frame has become a defining image of the civil war there. Well yesterday little Amal died, her family is heartbroken. I'm Laura Lynch. Anna Maria Tremonti will be back with you on Monday. Thanks for listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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