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The AIH Transcript for October 30, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight...

CO: Home court advantage -- the United Nations Special Rapporteur on executions says Canada has a duty to bring radicalized Canadian fighters back home to face justice.

JD: The caregiver, turned serial killer -- a German nurse goes on trial after admitting to murdering 100 of his patients, and the grandson of one victim says he could have been stopped.

CO: They cannot be alone -- a rabbi struggles to find words for the crime scene at a Pittsburgh synagogue where he and volunteers kept the deceased company.

JD: Just to over score my point -- the hockey league is wondering what to do after a kids team loses a game 41-0. But the losing coach is convinced that the game will provide a valuable lesson.

CO: Her gift to women and girls -- a friend and fellow playwright pays tribute to Ntozake Shange author of the Broadway landmark, For Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide / When the Rainbow is Enuf.

JD: And... admission failure -- a Tokyo ticket seller blames his fear of rude foreigners after he is busted by the tourist site where he works for politely allowing more than 100000 customers in for free. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition -- a radio that welcomes stories of all manner.

Part 1: Canada has 'a legal obligation' to repatriate citizens who left to fight for ISIS, says UN rapporteur

United Nations: ex-Jihadi fighters

Guest: Agnes Callamard

JD: They are Canadian. They fought for the Islamic State. They are imprisoned in Syria and Iraq. And a U.N. official says it is time for Ottawa to stop dragging its heels and bring them home. There are at least 13 Canadians being held at a Kurdish detention centre in Syria including several children according to a report by Global News. So far the federal government has said it has no obligation to repatriate them and that it is ill equipped to put those accused of crimes on trial. Agnes Callamard is the UN Special Rapporteurs on extra judicial summary or arbitrary executions. We reached Ms. Callamard in Paris.

CO: Ms. Callamard why do you believe that Canada has a duty to bring these people home -- those who fight alongside the Islamic State?

AGNES CALLAMARD: Well first, I believe it as a legal obligation to do so -- if those foreign fighters are currently held in Syria by a non-state actor in this case a Kurdish group that group has currently no international legitimacy and probably neither does it have the capacity to undertake fair trials. As far as Iraq is concerned with regard to if they are Canadian foreign fighters detained in Iraq -- at the moment they are detained and tried under Iraqi counter-terrorism law. It's an extremely problematic law that has been denounced by myself but from the UN as well. Under the law, many foreign fighters can be sentenced to death. So it is an obligation on Canada to take all the necessary measures to ensure that its citizens do not confront or face this penalty -- and frankly the best way to do that in Iraq is to repatriate them for trial in Canada.

CO: For trial -- because you can imagine that Canadians would have a hard time knowing the crimes that had been committed by Islamic State in Syria and Iraq to just bring them back, you believe they should be returned here and put on trial.

AC: I absolutely believe that it's the responsibility of the countries of origin of those fighters to do that. But I think there is also a moral or ethical reason as to why Canada should try them. Currently there has been nobody from the Islamic State that has been held to account for war crimes, crimes against humanity, or genocide committed either in Syria or Iraq. So I believe that Canada, France, United Kingdom, United States, all of which have for the last four or five years insisted that IS force committed genocide in Iraq and Syria those governments now should really put actions into their denunciation of the last four years and ensure accountability.

CO: Well why would that necessarily assure accountability? I mean when you say that they should be brought to justice in Canada the difficulty of actually prosecuting them would be the difficulty of gathering evidence, of protecting witnesses who would have to be brought, of translating, of all kinds of things on the ground in a very dangerous place in hostile territory. So the chances of prosecutions many would argue is extremely fraught. And so perhaps bringing them back is not going to bring successful prosecutions and doesn't that fail the victims of crimes?

AC: Well first of all the victims of the crimes currently are completely failed. The second is that of all countries that currently have the legal and technical capacity to undertake that challenging task I believe that some of those governments including Canada certainly are far better placed to do so. I'm not denying the complexity of the investigation. What I am suggesting is that after World War 2 we took on the challenge and the international community brought to account those that had committed genocide and killed six million people and far more in fact. After the Rwandan genocide we took our responsibility and the international community together took action. After what happened in the former Yugoslavia we did the same. There were many difficulties. There are still difficulties. What happened in Syria and Iraq is very similar to all of the atrocity crimes I have highlighted. Why is it that those crimes currently we are not responding to them with the equal vigor and equal courage? Now I'm not suggesting that Canada should do it on its own but Canada can begin the process. Canada can demonstrate leadership and can invite other states that are concerned, other states that have ratified the International Criminal Tribunal statute, other states that have domesticated universal jurisdiction principle all of them together they can come together and decide, determine, define a process to ensure some minimum accountability for the crimes that have been committed.

CO: Okay but it's not -- you're saying to bring them back and so when you mention Nuremberg or mention Rwanda these were tribunals that took place in location where they could gather the evidence so why not -- why not have those countries you just mentioned, all of whom have foreign fighters who have been in Syria and Iraq, why not have an ad hoc tribunal as it did Rwanda and Yugoslavia and have all those countries contribute their resources to see those people prosecuted on the ground where there is evidence and the victims?

AC: That's one option. You know there are several options. One of them is an ad hoc tribunal, international tribunal. A second option will be the establishment of so-called hybrid tribunal so it could be two countries coming together or the international community and Iraq for instance coming together -- when it comes to Syria what are we going to do? You know, I don't see any options for creating such a tribunal on the territory of Syria.

CO: All right from a legal point of view you speak but then there are politics in Canada as you know and we have tremendous opposition to the Liberal government if it even considers bringing the ISIS fighters back. And Canada's statement we received today said there is no plan or deal in place to bring any Canadians who are in Syria to Canada and they are insisting that the ones who have returned they will be prosecuted. But it doesn't seem as though they're interested in your idea.

AC: You know so far every government said that for the last four or five years have brandished IS as enemy number one around the world. None of those governments are now prepared to take their responsibilities and put IS to trial. None of them. So you know it's not a particular problem with Canada. It characterizes all of the Western governments that have participated to the war in Syria and Iraq. I am persuaded that at some stage they will have no other options but to really take an international responsibility for this next stage in the fight against extremism and must do the right thing in front of history.

CO: All right we will leave there Ms. Callamard I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AC: Thank you. Thank you very much.

JD: Agnes Callamard is the UN Special Rapporteur on extra judicial summary or arbitrary executions. We reached her in Paris. And we have more on this story on our website cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Synagogue burials

Guest: Rabbi Daniel Wasserman

SOUNDCLIP

[Crowd singing] We will fill this world with love...

JD: Sound of hundreds of protesters in Pittsburgh today singing in unison. They're marking the deaths of 11 congregants killed at the Tree of Life synagogue this past Saturday. But they are also protesting the arrival of U.S. President Donald Trump. Pittsburgh's own Mayor urged the President to stay away while the city grieves. Today also marked the first of many funerals. Rabbi Daniel Wasserman runs the Orthodox burial society in Pittsburgh. They are volunteers who in accordance with Jewish tradition stay with the bodies of the deceased until burial. And today Rabbi Wasserman's team began the difficult job of cleaning the synagogue. We reached the Rabbi in Pittsburgh.

CO: Rabbi Wasserman first of all I'm so sorry for all of your losses.

RABBI DANIEL WASSERMAN: On behalf of the community, thank you.

CO: I know that this question is almost impossible to answer, but if you could, can you describe what the last few days have been like for you and your volunteers?

RDW: Busy. Focused. We all just are focusing on what has to be done. And sometime afterwards we'll start to figure out how we feel.

CO: Are there times when it becomes unbearable when you have to find other volunteers or to move people out because it's just too much?

RDW: We try to be selective about which volunteers we use but we give each other a charge every time we are doing something that pertains to this -- you know no heroes. If there's physical exhaustion or emotional exhaustion, you step out.

CO: Can you describe for us what they are doing?

RDW: There are so many different parts of it. Any time a person passes away in our community the community is duty bound to mobilize. We interact with the commercial funeral home for the ritual parts and others to come in to be with the body [inaudible] to guard and accompany the body. We're in touch with the FBI and other law enforcement and the medical examiner to have a presence at the scene to help with the removal of the bodies, to accompany the bodies down to the medical examiner's office, to wash the body and say prayers and dress the body in the traditional shroud. We place the body in the casket.

CO: The volunteers that you have who had to stay outside the synagogue to be sure that these bodies were not alone. Can you describe that part of the ritual for us?

RDW: It's exactly as it sounds. It's just people being there. In our tradition death is defined as when the soul leaves the body. But just as life is a transitional process death is a transitional process. And when the soul leaves the body it's still there, it's still connected, and it hasn't transition to another dimension to another world -- and so, we stood. And we were there. And we prayed. And we just wanted to make sure that these souls continue to feel the presence of the community.

CO: This was something that had to be done in the synagogue while the FBI was still investigating -- since then is that right?

RDW: So when the bodies were still in the synagogue -- first of all, they only allowed two of us in and they -- I have to tell you how sensitive and careful they've been as a great courtesy. They allowed us to walk through the scene just so we could start in our own minds figuring out -- okay what do we have to do? What's the scope of what we have to do? But for the most part it was outside of the building because it is an active crime scene.

CO: I understand that you were one of the people who was inside this synagogue who the FBI led in.

RDW: Myself and my colleague.

CO: And all the bodies were still there when you were inside?

RDW: Unmoved. It was arrowed. They were unmoved. They were exactly where they fell.

CO: It is a scene of absolute carnage.

RDW: That word starts getting close.

CO: What word would you use?

RDW: I haven't found it yet. And I've been asked many times over the last few couple of days, how are you? And I've answered honestly. Right now we've all got work to do. And not just me -- I mean there are so many people in the community on so many different levels doing and reaching out and working. Right now we all have jobs to do. And the time to sit and fall apart will be later.

CO: The volunteers also are in the synagogue cleaning.

RDW: So as we speak we have a crew of 7 people cleaning one area. Again, the FBI normally won't release the scene until it's fully processed and of course but they were able to clear sufficiently one area where a limited group could go -- and as matter of fact it's only 7. And we had 8, including myself, 8 people who just came and volunteered. And I can't turn anybody away. So I'm staying outside. I'm doing the staging and I'm here as the first relief as someone -- you know as we rotate in and out. I mean I myself over the last couple of days for a couple of moments where I really wanted to just cry and fall apart and I am just not letting myself because if I do I won't be able to do what has to be done.

CO: There is a part of the ritual I understand when the washing of the body is done. There's a song of songs -- a poem from the Bible, a line that I'm just reading -- you are beautiful my beloved friend and there is no flaw in you. There's so much beauty to this does that help people that there is such --within this grief and mourning there is so much beauty.

RDW: It's the silver lining in the cloud. But in some instances you have an opportunity to appreciate the beauty as you do. In other instances, you just kind of keep going.

CO: The funerals begin today and some of the families don't want strangers, they want to be private. So many people everywhere are looking for a way to grieve as well -- to share your grief. Is there a place for that?

RDW: Mourning and breathing is such a private thing. And here we have families that have been thrust into the international spotlight. I tell my kids all the time and I tell other people all the time doing something for others is what they need not what we need. And those that want it to be private their wishes have to be respected. I actually I'm being called by the crew inside and I need to go see what they need.

CO: All right. Rabbi Wasserman we share your grief and I appreciate so much that you would talk to us today.

RDW: Thank you very much. God bless.

JD: Rabbi Daniel Wasserman runs the Orthodox burial society of Pittsburgh. Robert Bowers is the man accused of murdering the 11 congregants at the Tree of Life synagogue and targeting them because they were Jewish. Dr. Jeff Cohen helped treat Mr. Bowers in hospital. And Dr. Cohen spoke to Channel 4 News correspondent Jon Snow.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Yesterday, I went up to meet him and I was just curious as to, who is this guy? And quite honestly, he's just a guy. And he is -- people say that he's evil, he's this -- he's some mother's son. And how did he get from that to where he is today -- that's going to be a large debate that we have to wrestle with as a society.

VOICE 2: Effectively you were sort of at the head of a team that saved his life.

VOICE 1: It may be a bit of an overstatement but yes. You know he was severely injured and he got great care here. Many of the people that tended to him were Jewish -- you know they're heroes. They did like the cops did, they did their job. They went and they confronted the problem and they were true to their core beliefs and I'm very proud of them.

VOICE 2: And as a doctor but also as a parishioner of the synagogue and you looked into his eyes what did you see?

VOICE 1: I just looked at him and he's like a lot of people that come in here -- that are scared. They're confused. They don't quite understand it but once again my job isn't to judge him. Other people give [inaudible] that's a pretty awesome responsibility. My job is to take care of him.

JD: That was Dr. Jeff Cohen, one of the doctors who treated the man accused of Pittsburgh's synagogue shooting. He was speaking to Channel 4 News.

[Music]

JD: Dateline: Tokyo. An oasis of Japanese tranquility has fallen prey to fear. In a metropolis of 14 million people, the harmonious gardens of Shinjuku Gyoen are a popular spot for people to recharge for a nominal fee. But an investigation has revealed that thousands of foreign tourists have been allowed to recharge for free. The investigation began with a tip off to the Ministry of the Environment. It revealed an operation inside the admission office. Tickets would be issued but the transaction would then be cancelled immediately. I should mention that the entry fee is just 200 yen -- just over two dollars Canadian. But people were admitted for free 160,000 times. That is a loss of more than three hundred thousand dollars. But the culprit was not some gang of tour operators on the take. This was the work of one person. One man. One nervous man. According to SoraNews24, the man admitted "I don't speak any other language and I get scared when a foreigner began yelling at me a long time ago." The man who is now in his 70s has resigned and offered to pay the garden half of his retirement money in an effort to compensate the tourist attraction for the loss of revenue. So far there has been no similar compensation offer from a visiting oaf who yelled at septuagenarian in a tranquil garden because of a two dollar entry fee.

[Music]

Hockey team imbalance

Guest: Chris Wismer

JD: Losing is never fun but imagine losing 41 to nothing when you're 8 years old. That is what happened to the Cambridge Hawks earlier this month when they were beaten by the Kitchener Jr. Rangers. The game has the Minor Hockey Alliance of Ontario debating how to prevent such lopsided results. But the coach of the losing team has a different perspective on the situation. His name is Chris Wismer. He is a former professional hockey player himself. We reached Mr. Wismer in Cambridge, Ontario.

CO: Chris can you tell us what happened in this game that ended with a 41 to 0 loss for your team?

CHRIS WISMER: It just happened to be the circumstance of a team that had played together for the last two or three years without changing any pieces amongst their team up against us who had three returning players and the rest of the children had just come from Lacrosse Ice Hockey program in Cambridge minor hockey so this was their -- this is their first full taste of a full ice hockey game.

CO: And these are all 8 year old boys?

CW: 7 and 8 year old boys, yes.

CO: Now I understand from the Kitchener coach that he wasn't even trying to score. I mean he actually was instructing his boys to do things to reduce the score -- what was he doing? What was the instruction?

CW: Actually they had numerous breakaways and their player would peel off into the corner and pass the puck up to their defensemen and move the puck around the perimeter and then by circumstance or us not being able to clear the puck out of our zone it would end up in front of our net and what 8 year old boys want to do is score so they would literally give us an opportunity to clear the puck and the puck sitting on the goal and they would just tap it in.

CO: Yikes. And so how are your boys responding to all of this?

CW: Oh they were fine. We don't put up a score differential bigger than six, ever. They understood they were being scored on a lot but we kept their emotions in check. And every time they went on the ice they just kept trying to work on everything that we've been trying to work on in practice. There was no tears. There were no sad faces after the game. There still has not been throughout this year -- they come to the rink every single day that we have practice and they are upbeat and they are happy and they are eager to learn.

CO: But the assumption is that they're being humiliated and that this is very damaging for their self-esteem that they are little kids, they can't take this, and that this shouldn't be allowed -- there shouldn't be such an imbalance of teams playing against each other when they're this young.

CW: The imbalance has nothing to do with the two organizations. I would solely have to talk to the Alliance Hockey Federation which is who we play under. As for the score, nobody knew the score until it was posted on the websites. So we get given the game sheets after the game -- we see 41 to nothing. We have to post it in order to be teared properly once December 2nd comes.

CO: And you think this is the best way for them to do it? To get out there and actually have to play against the team that is this hard?

CW: That is a question for another time once I get answers as to why [Chuckles]. We do have to place such teams as those when you can clearly tell going into a season who are better or who are stronger and who are weaker and why we can't be teared off right away.

CO: You know better than I about how hockey parents react to things. And so when your boys are being defeated so completely -- were their parents coming up? Were you being berated by hockey moms and dads who are saying why is this going on? What are you doing?

CW: Absolutely not. Our parent group is very understanding most of them are new to the game. They just couldn't -- once we finally showed them the game sheet, they couldn't believe it was that much. Mind you some of them were keeping track in their heads. But even with us and the newness to the game that most of these kids are we can still see their growth and we can see their development and not one child has come up to us and said I don't want to play. They just keep wanting to go out and have fun. They really do.

CO: So you don't agree with his idea of mercy rules where they try and do something just to... or to end the game early to make the clock go faster --anything like that just to reduce the sense of defeat.

CW: No absolutely not. They are there to play a hockey game. They are there to grow and develop. They're there to learn. If we say for instance if we run the clock on them that's showing them that we are giving up. We're not going to give up. These boys are going to compete until that final whistle goes. And that's what they want to do now.

CO: Cambridge is now -- you haven't won any games so far this season right?

CW: No we are 0-7.

CO: And you've been outscored by 132-4. Four goals this season.

CW: Yes.

CO: Is that going to change? Do you think that'll improve?

CW: I certainly hope our goals against will improve and we can find some more offense. But even right now in practices we're still working on the basics with them: learning how to take a pass, learning how to shoot the puck properly, passing the puck from D to forwards and not just one person trying to skate it out of their own zone. It's literally ground zero.

CO: Well Chris I wish you all the best in the season and it sounds like you're a good coach to these boys and I appreciate speaking with you thank you.

CW: Thank you.

CO: Bye.

JD: Chris Wismer is the coach of the Cambridge Hawks a minor hockey team. His team of eight year olds recently lost a game 41-0. They hope to win a game before Christmas. We reach Mr. Wismer in Cambridge, Ontario. For more on the story go to our website cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 2: Longtime friend remembers fellow poet and playwright Ntozake Shange

German nurse trial

Guest: Christian Marbach

JD: Even coming from a convicted serial killer it was a stunning admission. Today, in German court a nurse confessed to killing 100 of his patients and there may be even more victims. Niels Hoegel is already serving a life sentence for killing six other people in his care. He took their lives by giving them medicine to induce a heart attack and then attempting and failing to revive them. Christian Marbach is the grandson of one of Niel Hoegel's victims. We reached Mr. Marbach in Delmenhorst, Germany.

CO: Mr. Marbach what was it like to hear your grandfather's killer admit to 100 more deaths?

CHRISTIAN MARBACH: It's a tragedy of course. It's quite hard to be in the same room with him. And today was something very special because this is his third trial and this was the first time he was speaking. This was a very special day to hear him talking about himself, talking about what he did, and also that he admitted to be a murder.

CO: You had never heard his voice before?

CM: No. Up to now all his answers were read by his lawyer.

CO: Did he explain -- did he say anything about why he did it?

CM: He's trying to build a bridge -- explaining how this could have happened. Today it started with him talking about himself because being someone working at the clinic and he gave also some insights about his private life, about his relationships. And one part he said that he got shocked about the ending of a relationship in the beginning when he was working at the clinic in Oldenburg. I think he's trying to explain that he was in a very unstable emotional situation when it all started.

CO: Was that at all helpful to you or the other families?

CM: I think so. It's quite helpful to know about what has happened. To see him talking about how he was thinking, how he was sad, how he was under pressure from his job and the circumstances. This doesn't make anything un-happen but it's better to understand what happened at that time.

CO: In addition though he's serving the sentence he's now confessed to 100 more but there may be other victims, right. There's still a possibility there are more. Will he be tried again for those?

CM: No. This will be the last trial for him because right now the 100 victims this is what could have been proven after all this time in all these years they were the ones who weren't buried [inaudible] so you could make some examinations afterwards. But all together we think it's about 250 to 270 victims.

CO: And in German history is this unprecedented?

CM: I think so. After the Second World War I think he is the biggest mass murder in Germany history, maybe also in the world.

CO: Tell us how he was doing this? What did you learn about his modus operandi?

CM: The first thing is that he is quite normal. This is something quite interesting in this case. He was in the middle of his team. He was a very sympathetic man at the time, had a lot of contacts with colleagues and so on. And then one day he lost contact between the people he was dealing with. He just saw them as bodies not as human beings.

CO: So he would inject them with a drug that would create a heart attack and then he would attempt to save them.

CM: Yes.

CO: I understand that he injected your grandfather twice before he was successful in killing him.

CM: The first time it was about 14 days about when grandpa went to a hospital but nothing serious. No reason to have a heart attack. No reason to die. He was on his way out of hospital. Then suddenly we got the information that he suddenly got a heart attack and he survived it. He was very afraid of being in hospital afterwards. So he tried to escape. He knew about someone doing a manipulation on him but he was unable to give up the right information. So we thought it's just part of the situation about stress to his body or even the medicine he got and three days later on, he killed him.

CO: I'm so sorry.

CM: Thank you very much. Quite hard even to accept this.

CO: Have you learned anything in the course of these trials and the hearings that have explained how no one else saw this? He worked in teams. He was part of the staff. Hundreds of people who died under his care. Did this set off alarm bells anywhere in the hospital?

CM: This is a tragedy because of course they found out. In Oldenburg they had so much critical situations caused by him. On one weekend he caused about 24 so they made a list of the people who died and about the people who worked there and found out that [inaudible] was the one who was there all the time. They gave him names -- killer and something like this. So they knew it. And they also sent him to another department because of all the critical situations he caused. And in the end they made the wrong decision because it was a decision of the global head of the clinic who decided not to go to the police but to send him away -- they sent him to another hospital.

CO: He was finally caught in the act right? Of injecting somebody?

CM: Yes it was in Delmenhorst -- they caught him red-handed.

CO: My gosh.

CM: And even when they caught him red-handed murdering someone and let him work for some more days because they didn't want to deal with it --during this three days he killed another person.

CO: Mr. Marbach this is a very disturbing story on so many different levels and I'm so sorry about your grandfather. I appreciate you taking the time to tell us about what happened. Thank you.

CM: Thank you very much for that.

CO: Good night.

CM: Good night.

JD: Christian Marbach is the grandson of one Niel Hoegel's victims. We reached Mr. Marbach in Delmenhorst, Germany.

VOICE: From coast to coast on CBC Radio and around the world on shortwave this is As It Happens.

CO: Hello I'm Carol Off.

JD: And I'm Jeff Douglas.

CO: Celebrating 50 years...

JD: Of As It Happens. As you have perhaps already heard because we continue to tell you, we have been celebrating for months because this season marks 50 years of As It Happens. And on November 16th we will be airing a special 50th anniversary special. A special...

CO: That's special.

JD: And we want you to be part of it. So let us know about a time you heard something on As It Happens that shaped your life in some way. Give us a call for 416-205-5687. Send us an email aih@cbc.ca or share your memories on Twitter or Facebook both of those accounts CBCAsItHappens. We might just share your memories on the air and we might just send you some swag. Just like Justine Light who wrote...

CO: Okay this is what she wrote. One moment that sticks out is a year when my younger daughter and I both came down with some hideous gastroenteritis bug just before Christmas -- it was in the early 2000s. As the annual gathering at our place began among the healthy and happy family members and friends, my younger daughter and I were exiled to a main floor bedroom. We lay there flat out in bed listening to everyone having fun while wishing for a quick end to it all. I switched on CBC to distract us from our misery and As It Happens had just begun the annual reading of The Shepherd. We listened together and became utterly transfixed by Alan Maitland's reading. It was about our only moments of complete contentment enjoy that particular Christmas and it became our family tradition.

JD: Well thank you so much for sharing your memory Justine. And then there was this call to talkback about As It Happens -- playing The Shepherd as our listener sailed around the world.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: My name is Roland. I live in Brossard in Quebec just south of Montreal and I was doing a trip around the world in 1978-79 and I got the opportunity to crew on a sailboat from Singapore down to Indonesia and across to the Seychelles. It was a three month voyage. There were three of us onboard. Back then there was no GPS. We only had a sextant. And we listened to the BBC on shortwave radio and one of the things that we also listened to was the CBC and As It Happens. And that's where I got to know Barbara Frum. And I'll always remember those evenings listening to her and As It Happens give me a sense of connection to home in the middle of the Indian Ocean. I still remember Barbara Frum's voice. And I've always thought that Barbara Budd sounded like her as well. So there you go that's my memory and my first introduction to As It Happens.

JD: Thank you for your call, Roland. If this show changed course of your life in some way or made you think, made you feel something, let us now. CBCAsItHappens on Twitter and Facebook. Email aih@cbc.ca. And we do love to hear your voice so please give us a call 416-205-5687.

[Music]

Ntozake Shange obit

Guest: Thulani Davis

JD: She was a poet. She was a novelist. A trailblazing playwright. And she was the only second African-American woman ever to have a play on Broadway. Ntozake Shange died this weekend in Bowie, Maryland. She was 70 years old. Ms. Shange was prolific but her best known work remains For Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide / When the Rainbow is Enuf. It opened on Broadway in 76 and was nominated for a Tony. Thulani Davis was a close friend and collaborator to Ms. Shange. She is a playwright, novelist, and professor of Afro-American studies at the University of Wisconsin Madison. We reached her in Madison.

CO: Professor Davis first of all I'm sorry about the loss of your friend.

THULANI DAVIS: Thank you so much.

CO: How did you come to meet Ntozake Shange.

TD: We met at some black student's mixer freshman year of college -- Barnard College in New York. We were both going to go to law school and be Thurgood Marshall. So we spent a lot of time taking the same classes and just being friends. But I started writing poetry and got published in one of the college publications so she showed up at my dorm room one day with five poems and I was pretty astounded. They were great. After that we published a magazine our senior year called ‘Phat Mama’ way ahead of our times I think, of work done by ourselves -- Sonia Sanchez who was kind enough to mentor us a bit and give us some poems and also writing by our classmates. So we just decided well we were going to have our own black woman's magazine of literature.

CO: It's a long way to go from having your own magazine to having the play produced on Broadway -- For Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide / When the Rainbow is Enuf, nominated for a Tony Award and was just the sensation when people saw it. Can you remember the kind of reception the play received in 1976 when it opened?

TD: When the first production was done at the new Federal Theater -- it was on weekends and after the first three or four weekends it was about to close. And women appeared there having heard about it primarily by word of mouth and literally there would be 40-50 women banging on the door just as the doors closed before the show started -- banging on the door to be admitted. It was extraordinary. And I've never seen anything like it since either. It certainly took all of us by surprise. And it's one of the reasons she ended up at the New York Shakespeare Festival with the show. And its appearance there had a similar kind of very abate response. But once it really got to Broadway, began to tour, there was also this backlash from men. Men would come to Q and A sessions and accuse her really of defaming black men. So there was this resentment that women were airing the dirty laundry inside black communities in this broader public platform. So there was this feeling that women should put race first and women second.

CO: Can you for those who don't know the play or didn't see it and perhaps have very little familiarity with it. Can you describe it for our listeners?

TD: Well it's a series of little more than a dozen poems. Each woman is identified by the color she's wearing woman in Orange. Woman in red. And they're kind of having a conversation about personal experiences. And one of the most repeated lines I've heard in the past two days was 'can somebody, anybody, sing a black girl song.' This is something that has stuck with people for 40 years and it's been as though it filled a need. And then there were moments of laughter when she would talk about a lover who had caused a lot of misery and she would say, 'I got sorrys falling out of my closet or somebody almost ran off with all my stuff, not her stuff stuff, but the stuff that keeps her together her confidence her self-possession.' And so it was very intimate and yet it also shared trauma --traumas perhaps that people in the audience had not shared with other people and suddenly they were in an audience sharing something that they could feel in the room they now were not experiencing alone.

CO: And she inspired a generation of black female playwrights didn't she?

TD: Oh certainly. We had grown up without being taught the work of black playwrights because of the schools that we went to. We began to study black literature in college not in class but -- because black students formed study groups -- we're self-taught in African-American literature. But we went to see tons of plays in New York and I think she in turn inspired several generations of women, some who performed in local versions of For Colored Girls when they were either in college or in school somewhere. And those playwrights even having been in the play and embody the characters -- how could that not you know just leave a strong impression because they suddenly were doing the work of somebody who was describing their experience.

CO: Just finally -- as a person, as a human being, as your friend, what will you miss about Ntozake Shange?

TD: Well in the present moment talking on the phone, being able to pick up the phone or see her in person and talk about anything after 50 years there's nothing we couldn't hear. And that's not something that is replaced. And I miss being inspired by her. She was an incredibly inventive person and she demanded your attention and she continued to show this incredible courage. She did two performances last week. She had bipolar syndrome. She was in a wheelchair and she had a neuropathy that hit different parts of her body at different times. And she was very determined to remain engaged. And so going forward I tried to keep that in mind. I think that would be an inspiration I would not have taken from her 40 years ago but what she gave to me in recent years.

CO: And she sounds like an inspiration. And I'm again sorry for the loss of your friend. And I appreciate you telling us about it. Thank you Professor Davis.

TD: Thank you so much.

CO: Bye.

TD: Bye bye.

JD: Thulani Davis was a close friend of Ntozake Shange. We reached Professor Davis in Madison, Wisconsin. In 1994 Ntozake Shange wrote a novel called Liliane: Resurrection of the daughter. It is a coming of age story of a young black woman told through her memories, dreams, and dialogues. Ms. Shange read an excerpt from it when it was first released on CBC Radio's The Arts Tonight. So here she is reading a scene where the story's protagonist speaks to her psychoanalyst.

SOUNDCLIP

NTOZAKE SHANGE: Maybe it's not the silences. Not the silences that bother me. It's just the noise like a roar inside my head takes over when it's silent. It's not quiet that I avoid. I never really talk out loud on. When I walk I walk everywhere I can. I even prefer for men who like to walk because then we can talk with our eyes or our bodies or some strange sign will bring us together. No. It's not quiet that I avoid. I'm quiet when I can hear music. What music? Oh B.B. King, Celia Cruz, or Gloria Lynn. I don't like listening to ex-lovers very much but I won't turn them off, down maybe, but not off. Are ex-lovers part of the noise in your head? Or more on the silence? You are interfering with my paradigm here. The music was part of a quite that's quite appropriate and tangible some pleasing part of my own body, my smile, my breath. But you turn ex-lovers down. Yes down, not off. If I turn them off they'd be part of the silence and then I wouldn't be able to hear anything palpable. It's like going to the moon. The moon? See La Luna la lun -- the moon and quiet with [inaudible] is a psaltery wanting giggle in my eye but in silence the moon is just another dry cracking surface like talking to white people all the time makes me choke. I can't breathe in silence. Why is that? Because it presses down on me like a man who just knows his own way -- can screw me to death because he's literally also blocking my esophagus or like a wrong turn in the middle of the night in South Boston can take my breath away. What difference does it make? It's quiet. It's silent so what. You know that's not my biggest problem right now. What is your biggest problem? Damn it I told you. Jesus Christ I must have told you a thousand times, I can't breathe. When it is silent? Yes. That's why my silence is here -- with you [inaudible]. Oh. How are you going to help me in silence? Well then we can get to hear the noises in your head that are choking you. It wasn't always true. I didn't always need to hear anything or not hear anything. I have never had asthma but now when somebody even a soap star whose voice isn't audible if there's no music or chatter or the phone's not ringing, I mean not answered, I start gasping and the next thing I know I'm holding my throat like my hands are healing hands and I can't find any air. I forget where I am. My feet aren't really on the ground. Oh hell I don't know where my feet are when there's that kind of forest my God. All I can imagine is being caught inside a roll of thunder. Now could you get a hold of yourself inside a roll of thunder. Why not lightning? Because I'm not burning up I'm choking to death. I told you I can't take this. I cannot survive in silence. It is not really the silence you believe you can't survive Lily it's the noise in your head that you only hear in silence. Oh I've mastered quiet time how's that? A start. A start Lily.

JD: Ntozake Shange on CBC Radio's The Arts Tonight back in 1994. Ms. Shange has died at the age of 70.

[Music]

Part 3: Calgary’s 2026 Winter Olympic bid

Calgary Olympic bid

Guest: Evan Woolley

JD: Calgary's Olympic dreams could die this week. City residents were supposed to vote in a plebiscite about hosting the 2026 games but today the city's Olympic committee recommended that Calgary simply drop its bid. This, despite overnight talks between all three levels of government. The sticking point seems to be as it so often is, money. Evan Woolley chairs Calgary's Olympic and Paralympic Winter Games Assessment Committee. We reached Mr. Woolley in Calgary.

CO: Councillor Woolley I know you have been working on this bid for months and now it looks like all that was for nothing. So how are you feeling?

EVAN WOOLLEY: I'm obviously really disappointed. You know when I took this job as chair of this committee in April I was obviously hopeful. I did not have an ideological approach to the Olympics one way or the other we really just wanted to see whether this would be -- whether we could get a good deal for Calgary and it's obviously really disappointing that we've gotten to where we are today. You know I was actually eight years old in 1988 when we hosted the games and I have a 3 month old at home who will be eight years old and 2026. So I always appreciated how important the work that we were doing is in terms of the potential opportunity.

CO: And now -- so you stood before a Calgary City Council today and you recommended that the city suspend all its work on the bid for the 2026 Winter Games. So what happened? What went wrong? Because it seemed like you thought you had something. What was the problem?

EW: Yeah you know we don't have a funding agreement in place and when we created the assessment committee we had kind of three main jobs. One was to provide oversight and guidance and all of the work that was coming through there's a lot of different partners and players. We need to be transparent with Calgarians so that they could make an informed decision about whether or not to bid. And then the last one which is obviously critically important is that we would not be comfortable bringing forward a deal that was not financially responsible and obviously not in the interest of Calgarians. We just moved deadline after deadline. We were supposed to have a funding agreement in June and then it was September and they're just you know always seemed to be moving and adjusting timelines which is good to a certain point but the plebiscite is in less than two weeks and we do not have a cost share agreement today and at some point today was that day for me.

CO: Okay. So you are adjusting timelines. But did the money -- did the offer for the public part of the funding you needed, did it ever change? Did the levels of government ever offer change -- what they said they were going to contribute?

EW: There were many different conversations. So there's conversations that obviously happened at an administrative level or a secretariat level and then as is generally the case there's political conversations that happened and we had remained optimistic and had had been having much positive inclinations that both the provincial number that was 700 with no indemnification or no guarantees there would be some opportunity for that to move as well as the federal government policy of 50 percent which we've seen them go above and beyond in other events would have the opportunity to move in. And our optimism as of today is not there given that just that gap in funding and what the city would have to bear given the minuscule amount of budget we have compared to the other orders of government, just didn't line up for me.

CO: Okay. You needed about 3 billion dollars coming from the public purse to make this work right?

EW: Yes.

CO: And so the feds are offering 1.75 billion which would in 2026 dollars be 1.5 billion dollars -- half of that price right. That's what they say their policy is. The province was offering 700 million dollars. They've never budged from that. Where did your optimism come from?

EW: Our optimism had come from a number of negotiations that were happening that gave our negotiating team reason to believe that those numbers would move. And then the other big piece was around the guarantees and the opportunity both for the IOC to not require as many guarantees as well as our federal and provincial governments to bear those guarantees.

CO: You were negotiating into the wee hours -- kind of I think at all levels of government, right. The feds, the province, the city, everyone was involved in these negotiations. What was the horse-trading about? Tell us what was going on in that meeting last night?

EW: So I can't speak to that right now because again it is confidential but I can tell you that based on those conversations my decision to put forward this recommendation to cease the bid was a reflection of those conversations.

CO: But you know people have been demanding transparency in this entire bid process from the get go. So when are you going to tell them what went into those considerations?

EW: Well the motion that I brought forward has been referred to a full meeting of council tomorrow at which point I would expect that all of those things become public.

CO: So everyone is going to know tomorrow what the negotiations were. What the kind of conversations you had in the wee hours.

EW: That is my hope.

CO: And I know you're an optimist so do you think that your hopes will be realized?

EW: I do. Again remembering that city councils run different than the federal and provincial governments that have majorities, right. The way our government operates is that I am one voice on council and one vote while there's a number of opportunities I have to make that voice heard -- it is that way.

CO: Okay again back to your optimism is this it? Plebiscite is canceled? There is no going forward on this bid for 2026 Olympics?

EW: No that's not true. So the motion that I made is that we cease this work. That said it has to pass 10 votes of council tomorrow in order for that work to stop.

CO: You could still have the plebiscite?

EW: There is the potential but my recommendation before us today that was then referred to council is that we cease and desist that work. That said tomorrow at council it will need 10 votes to pass.

CO: Is this a strategy? Is this a ploy you wanting to see if the other side blinks?

EW: I can tell you I have endeavours and put a lot of time and effort into this project -- I did not move these recommendations lightly. This is a very very difficult decision for me. I did not put this forward as a ploy I can tell you that.

CO: If you are a gambling man -- what would be the odds that this is still going to happen?

EW: I don't gamble.

CO: [Laughs] Okay you are not a gambling man. What am I going to do to get this out of you?

EW: To think that this passes tomorrow -- I think you know -- we promised Calgarians that we would put a financial deal in front of them with enough time for them to consume the information be able to make a thoughtful decision. I think that that clock has run out. And we have mail in ballots right now that people are literally voting right now. Our advanced poll starts in a week and our election is in less than two weeks -- with no deal on the table now, is it fair for us to proceed to the plebiscite? Is the question that the council really and finally is going to have to answer tomorrow.

CO: We'll be watching. Councillor Woolley thank you.

EW: Thanks so much.

JD: Evan Woolley is a Calgary city councillor and he chairs the Olympic and Paralympic Winter Games Assessment Committee. We reached Councillor Woolley in Calgary.

[Music]

JD: An utterly effing good read -- that is how the jury for the Governor General's literary award for fiction describes this year's winning novel, The Red Word -- it's written by English professor Sarah Henstra. Her book tackles gender politics on college campuses. I'll quote the jurors once more -- it is "alternately heartbreaking funny and critical. No one gets off easily." Last week Carol spoke with a group of GG nominees at the Toronto International Festival of Authors -- when she asked Ms. Henstra to read from her now award winning book.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: The front lawn of the frat house was littered with furniture and sprawling male bodies. It looked like all the boys had moved permanently outdoors. The brick building loomed up behind them into the maples. Even in the full sunshine it was as shadowy and misshapen as a Victorian asylum. Its upper stories encrusted with dormer windows and rickety balconies. The tableau was a cross between a beer commercial and a Brueghel painting and I was immediately sorry I'd left my camera Raghurst. Mike popped up from one of the couches on the lawn and came down to meet me on the sidewalk. Hi honey he said. He held my jaw on both sides and kissed me in front of everybody. I squirmed out of his grasp. You've got lipstick now. I said swiping his lip with my thumb. Gentlemen this is Karen Huls, Mike announced. He hoisted my bicycle to his shoulder and carried it up the steps to the porch. Hi Karen Huls they all droned like kindergartners greeting their teacher. Hi Karen Huls said Bruce. I hadn't seen him there on the grass but I saw him now. Feet first, flat on his back. Shorts. No shirt. Hands behind his head. Elbows out. A gold dark valley between his thighs and gold bright tufts under his arms. The secrets of Bruce's body laid out carelessly for the whole world. I'd begun reading The Iliad for Dr. Esterhazy class and I kept picturing the hero Achilles as Bruce comfort. Blessed by the gods the book said -- beloved by Athena. I pictured how Bruce's broad chest would look plated in bronze. How his blond hair would become shaggy and sweat stiffened under his iron helm. Even if I had brought my camera with me I couldn't very well take a photo of Bruce comfort not in front of all these frat boys, not in front of Mike, but if I could -- oh if I could I wouldn't bother with the beer commercial tableau at all. Here was the essence of the scene right here. It would be a single close up of Bruce's ribs curving under his skin sweeping down into the grass like the hull of a war going ship. Inside a blonde brother met us in the kitchen doorway and introduced himself as Chris. So your code blue I'd take it he said. What are the other options? I asked. Karen, Charlie, Charlie, Karen. Mike nodded at a fullback type with coppery hair sitting at the table wolfing scrambled eggs with a spoon clenched in his big fist. The room smelled of sulfur, stale sweat, and alcohol. Chris pointed to sheets of coloured circles arrayed on the table -- stickers: white, pink, red, and black he said. And green for pukers as Charlie supplied. I don't think you're supposed to tell girls though. Tell us what? I said. You don't want to be black -- that's all you need to know. Chris swigged the last of his beer adding it to the dense collage of empties on the counter and cracked a fresh one. A bare chested brother in boxer shorts wedged past Mike into the kitchen pausing to squeeze him against the doorframe hump his hip several times and belch against his cheek. Oh yeah baby Mikey you are so fine he said. He crossed to the fridge and grabbed a beer. He waved the game controller he was carrying at the others then used it to scratch his hairy stomach. Baby brothers just you wait till the tribal warfare party tonight he slurred. Those state skanks are unbelievable -- we'll be peeling them off the tracks tomorrow if you know what I'm saying. Do you mind? There are ladies present Charlie said. He folded his toast and shoved it into his mouth. I take it that state girls are code black I said. The bare chested boy looked startled, red anyhow. Who's telling her about our system? What do you do put the stickers on their foreheads when they come through the door? I asked. Chris punched Mike in the bicep watch this one Mikey she's sharp. The bare chested boy looked me up and down she's kind of west coast don't you think? She's Canadian Mike explain.

JD: Sarah Henstra is the author of the novel The Red Word which was named the 2018 winner of the Governor General's Literary Award for Fiction today. For more on all the Governor General's Literary Award winners visit cbcbooks.ca

[Music]

Brazil election

Guest: Luciana Genro

JD: Brazil has taken a hard right turn. On Sunday the country elected populist campaigner Jair Bolsonaro to the presidency. The former army captain is often compared to Donald Trump. Mr. Bolsonaro has made disparaging remarks directed toward women, the LGBT community, and environmentalists. He has threatened to dismantle Brazilian democracy and has suggested his political opponents could be imprisoned or exiled. But he has also promised a crackdown on crime and bring economic prosperity to the country. Luciana Genro is a state deputy and former presidential candidate for the left wing Socialism and Freedom Party. We reached Ms. Genro in Porto Alegre, Brazil.

CO: Ms. Genro what happened? Why did Brazilians choose such a controversial figure as their president?

LUCIANA GENRO: Yeah that's a very good question. The main thing is that the Workers' Party was very -- people were very angry at the Workers' Party because of corruption. Because of the economic crisis that started in 2013-14. And the big amount of scandals for a lot of corruption. The president was even overthrown by an impeachment process.

CO: What did Mr. Bolsonaro -- what did he offer as a way to get out of that crises that the country is in?

LG: He put on the table some issues that are very controversial and that have some support among people like abortion, like homosexual right, like against feminism. So he could gather around him -- the thoughts that are even more to the right. He managed to seem like a person outside of the system, outside of the regime.

CO: Even though he had been there for so many years.

LG: He's been there for many years but he managed to look like he was the first. He was [inaudible] on social media, a lot of fake news. A slander campaign against public figures. He won in feeling the desire of change of the people and the people didn't realize that this change could be far worse. 85 percent of the people who voted for him for example did not believe that he was able to transform Brazil in a dictatorship.

CO: Let me ask you just at the same time were not people -- enough people turned off by things he said? He talked about women as you mentioned. He said that having a female child is a weakness -- that women shouldn't be paid what men are being paid. He said his son -- he said he'd rather his son was in a car accident or an addict than to be gay. He talked about Afro-Brazilians in the most horrible ways. What he said is just so shocking to people. Were people not turned off at all by these things that he was saying?

LG: Many people didn't believe in that. They insisted on saying that it was lies against him. And some people thought that he was just saying but he is not going to do anything like that -- that he is not so bad. He's just a little bit dis-controlled in the way he speaks but he's not going to do anything against the homosexual people, against women. It was such a strong feeling of anger at the Workers' Party that people accepted to cope with these things because they wanted to punish the Workers' Party.

CO: I just wonder -- what group of society he was appealing. Because he was you know -- your democracy is very young but so he was talking about the military returning again with great strength as you know you had a military controlled government for so long. He talked about what he would -- people he'd put in jail. He talked about religion. About the family. All these things. Very very right-wing views on all of these issues, did that have an appeal for people? Or was it just because they were thinking about the economy or were they attracted by things that he said?

LG: The people who voted for him are not all the same. There is a fraction that is really [inaudible] has really a fascist thinking -- that is minority but they are. Another fraction is made of religious people mainly evangelic -- they are very conservative in values in things like women's rights, homosexual rights. So he has really support, political support, for these matters in this fraction of people who are religious.

CO: Just finally there are I tell you people outside people in Canada who are suggesting that it might be a good thing for Canadian business that that Mr. Bolsonaro says he will dismantle your environmental policies and that this is something that will provide business opportunities for Canadian mining company and forestry company. What do you say to that?

LG: Well maybe. If you are thinking only about the interests of the corporations in Canada, maybe. Maybe it's okay to think. But if you are thinking about the interests of the humanity and the people not only in Canada but all over the world that are worried about the environmental problems that we face and these problems are not only going to affect people in Brazil but going to affect people in the whole world. So this is not a good business for anyone. Only for the corporations -- the big corporations that profit from this kind of business that destroys environment and make all the people suffer the consequence.

CO: All right Ms. Genro we will be following these developments and I appreciate speaking with you today. Thank you.

LG: Okay thank you.

JD: Luciana Genro is a state deputy for the left-wing Socialism and Freedom Party. We reached her in Porto Alegre, Brazil.

[Music]

JD: Silence is God's first language. Everything else is a poor translation. That was one of Father Thomas Keating's favorite phrases his friends told The New York Times. The Trappist monk was a teacher of Christian contemplative prayer. He practiced and shared something called Centering Prayer which places importance on silence. Father Keating died earlier this month. He was 95 years old. Back in 2004 he spoke with the CBC's Mary Hynes on Tapestry and she asked what a session of contemplative prayer was like and how the repetition of a word became important in his practice.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: The idea is to open oneself for a certain period of time like 20 minutes or half an hour. Preferably twice a day in order to immerse oneself in the spiritual level of our being and to do that we have to deliberately move off for that period of time of our ordinary psychological awareness. So you have to find a fairly quiet space that doesn't have to be absolutely quiet but it needs to be conducive to letting go of your ordinary preoccupations and the noise and tumult of our life in the world. The intention that we have is usually expressed by some gesture which can be a word of one or two syllables which could be one of the sacred names of God but doesn't have to be. This is a moment to allow the relationship to move to a deeper level of intimacy. It's something like making love. You don't do it all day long. But by doing it occasionally and regularly it maintains the relationship at a level of intimacy and support and security and many other values.

VOICE 2: What a striking metaphor to hear that this sort of prayer is like making love is it -- do you see it as being an intimacy of that level with God?

VOICE 1: Yes. [Chuckles] Only it's more so. It's not a physiological relationship obviously. It's something more intimate still [inaudible] spiritual communion with God which is the interpenetration of spirits that is to say God communicates himself to us chiefly through our faith and our trust and our love. Getting used to this spiritual kind of conversation takes some time and it also involves gently but steadily rolling back our ideas including our preconceived values or our preconceived ideas of what prayer is. It's an opening of mind and heart to a presence that is deeper than talking. So it's centring prayer a movement from conversation to communion.

JD: Trappist monk Thomas Keating speaking with CBC's Tapestry host Mary Hynes back in 2004. Father Keating died earlier this month. He was 95 years old.

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October 30, 2018 Episode Transcript

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