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The AIH Transcript for October 22, 2018

Hosts: Megan Williams and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Hello, I'm Megan Williams, sitting in for Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight…

MW: The shadows and the doubt. After weeks of denials, Saudi Arabia finally claims Jamal Khashoggi killers acted on their own — and that the crown prince was oblivious. But the world has responded with incredulity.

JD: Order of disappearance. A Uighur woman living in the U.S. fears for her sister and aunt who vanished from their homes in China because she believes the authorities sent them to internment camps in retaliation for her own activism.

MW: Home improvement. A former NDP is elected mayor of Vancouver after a campaign that centred on affordable housing. And tonight Kennedy Stewart explains how he'll tackle the problem.

JD: A life or death situation. Four years after Corporal Nathan Cirillo was killed in Ottawa, one of the people who tried to save him speaks about her pain and about her desire to inspire others.

MW: A monologue becomes a dialogue. After sharing her own #MeToo experiences, Halifax newspaper columnist Lezlie Lowe is surprised to get a letter of apology from a man who assaulted her 30 years ago.

JD: And…Oxy ladies. A P.E.I. dairy farmer creates glamour shots showcasing his cows in picturesque locations — and given the state of his industry puts his faith in bovine providence. As It Happens: The Monday Edition. Radio that introduces you to his significant udders.

[Music: Theme]

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Part 1: Khashoggi: exports, Vancouver mayor, Cow photos coffee book

Khashoggi: exports

Guest: Omid Nouripour

JD: That is Saudi Arabia's story and they're sticking to it. After claiming for weeks that they had no clue what happened to journalist Jamal Khashoggi after he went into their consulate, the Saudis have finally put out a new story. They now say he was murdered — but that his killing was a quote “rogue operation” that happened without knowledge of Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman. Here is Saudi Foreign Minister Adel al-Jubeir speaking on Fox News.

SOUNDCLIP

ADEL AL JUBEIR: We had an individual who came to the consulate, he was approached by members of the Saudi security team. They told us that he left the consulate. They came back to Saudi Arabia, file a report to that effect. The King then directed the public prosecutors to launch an investigation, which he did about nine days ago. He discovered that there were discrepancies. We discovered that he was killed in the consulate. We don't know, in terms of details, how. We don't know where the body is. The public prosecutor then put out orders to detain 18 individuals for questioning and possibly facing trial. We are determined to uncover every stone. We are determined to find out all the facts and we are determined to punish those who are responsible for this murder and to ensure that something like this can never happen again.

JD: Saudi Foreign Minister Adel al-Jubeir on Fox News. Now, not many foreign governments are accepting Saudi Arabia's story at face value. And last night Germany announced it would not approve new arms exports to the kingdom until further notice. And Canada is under pressure to stop the sale of armored vehicles to the kingdom. Omid Nouripour is a German member of parliament who sits on the country's Committee on Foreign Affairs. We reached Mr. Nouripour in Heppenheim, Germany.

MW: Mr. Nouripour, we just heard Saudi’s Foreign Minister reiterating the country's latest story about what happened to Jamal Khashoggi. What do you make of that explanation?

OMID NOURIPOUR: I just can't believe that they are thinking that their world community could buy that. They said there had been in dispute and that this guy died and cut himself to pieces. I've no idea why we should buy that. And I think that it's now time to understand that the Saudis are not able or not ready to give answers to the question of what happened to a free journalist in Istanbul.

MW: Is there any way that you could believe that Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman would not have been aware of an operation like this?

ON: This is a country with a very clear hierarchy which has been absolutely constructed for this one guy, for MBS for the last two or three years. And having a couple of his bodyguards there, having one of his closest advisers there, they are a big part of the so-called security team, I just can't imagine how they think we will believe that he has nothing to do with the case of his murder.

MW: It emerged today that the team sent to Turkey even had a body double who apparently wore Mr. Khashoggi’s clothes and walked around Istanbul after the killing. What does this say about how premeditated or sophisticated this operation was his operation was?

ON: This operation was well prepared in their view. It's obvious that you just do not take people who look like other people into a place where you do not accept others to come and it's obvious that they even had a bone saw with them to erase any evidence. I have no idea why the Saudis think we will buy a story an accident and a dispute while everybody is seeing that they were prepared to catch this guy and kill him.

MW: Your country Germany announced that it would not approve new arms exports to Saudi Arabia. Do you feel that that decision goes far enough?

ON: I think this is a good starter for my government which always try to sell arms to Saudi Arabia. And the case of Khashoggi is, of course, the peak of an iceberg. There are a bunch of reasons not to sell arms to Saudi Arabia. The human rights situation in the country is in very bad shape. The war in Yemen, bombing this very poor country into the stone age, are more reasons — and I'm happy that my government still is trying to wake up in this moment.

MW: Germany has said it won't approve future arms exports but you are going to stick to your commitment so far, that is existing trade deals that that will continue to go through. Do you want those canceled as well?

ON: The Saudis gave us a signature that, for example, German boats won't be used for a sea blockade of Yemen, which is part of the disaster in the country because people do not get any nutrition in the country because it's blockaded on each side. Now we see that they are also using the Strait of Aden for the sea blockade. So they are breaking their promises. And I think this is a moment when my government should not only say that they won't sell arms to Saudi Arabia anymore, but to question the fact that they have already got a lot of things and they are misusing the arms that they got from Germany.

MW: How much is this decision going to cost Germany financially?

ON: I can't tell you. But we know that Saudi Arabia is breaking the deals we had. So it's obvious that the most important thing now is the question of our sovereignty and not a question of how many weapons will they buy in for the future.

MW: And how might the Saudis retaliate?

ON: I have no idea what's going on and I know that they are very sensitive in a bad way. I remember when Canada criticized the human rights situation in Saudi Arabia, which should be normal within the world community, that they try to strike back very hard. And I'm very disappointed of my own foreign minister that he never stepped up to show any solidarity with Canada in such a moment. I remember very well having their foreign minister of Canada in Berlin asking for this solidarity and not getting any answer to that. I think this is now that moment when democracies have to stand together and fight back against what the Saudis are trying, this is namely dividing us and pushing us to the edge by the business means they have.

MW: And yet Canada does have a deal with Saudi Arabia and it's right now feeling the pressure to cancel its own armoured vehicles that it sends to Saudi Arabia. What would you say to our government about that deal?

ON: I would love to see that Western democracies work on their credibility. And that means that there shouldn't be arms which are used in Yemen killing a nation of the poorest in the Arab world. It is our core our discussion also. We shouldn't deliver any things which are used in this war.

MW: Okay. And with Donald Trump saying repeatedly that he won't get in the way of those hundreds-of-billions of dollars in arms deals with Saudi Arabia, the amount at stake for Germany obviously is a lot less. I mean, it's under half-a-billion dollars. Can we consider this move mainly symbolic?

ON: No. This is a question of what kind of partnership we want. And we have to show to the Saudis that in these times there is no business as usual. And this is not only about a question of selling arms. It's a question of what kind of partner could Saudi Arabia be.

MW: Thanks very much for speaking with me today Mr. Nouripour.

ON: Thank you.

JD: Omid Nouripour is a German member of parliament. We reached him in Heppenheim, Germany. Also today, Canada's foreign affairs Mr. Chrystia Freeland was asked about Jamal Khashoggi and the sale of light armoured vehicles to the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Here is part of what the minister had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: There are very important questions about the entire relationship with Saudi Arabia that need to be asked. And we are having these serious conversations with our partners and allies.

KATIE SIMPSON: So does that mean there is a review of the Saudi contract under way by this government?

CF: We have very grave concerns about the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. We are working together to press for a transparent and credible investigation. Those responsible must be brought to justice and must face the consequences.

JD: Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland answering a question from the CBC’s Katie Simpson in Ottawa earlier today.

[Music: Ambient Guitar Plucks]

Vancouver mayor

Guest: Kennedy Stewart

JD: The campaign centred on affordable housing and in the end the election was very close. On Saturday, Vancouver mayor-elect Kennedy Stewart defeated his main rival Ken Sim by fewer than a thousand votes. The former NDP MP for Barnaby has vowed to tackle the city's housing crisis by building more non-profit rental units by creating a renter's advocate and tripling the empty homes tax. But with a divided council he may be facing a bumpy road. We reached the Mayor-elect of Vancouver, Kennedy Stewart in Vancouver.

MW: Kennedy Stewart, congratulations.

KENNEDY STEWART: Thank you very much.

MW: Let's start with the major issue in this election, which is the unaffordable housing crisis in Vancouver. You're a renter. What has been your experience finding a place to live in Vancouver?

KS: Well, it's extremely difficult. First we had Airbnb come into town really unregulated and all the available rental units went there. The provincial government and city, we worked together and we've regulated that but now we have the problem of pricing. PadMapper came out last week saying an average two bedroom apartment is $3,300 a month and a one bedroom is $2,100. And that is not affordable and we're having workers just leave the city in droves because they can't afford to live here.

MW: Now Vancouver has become synonymous with its housing crisis at this point and it's not a new crisis, it's something that the city has promised to tackle for more than a decade now and you're not the first politician who has promised to tackle it. What are you going to do differently?

KS: Well, I knew I had to take bold action if I was elected, so that's what I promised through this election was to build 25,000 units of affordable rental housing that would be run by non-profits and we'd put this on city-owned land. And so that's what the voters voted for and so that's what I'll be moving ahead with as soon as I'm sworn in on November 5th. But it is going to mean that things will be different here in the city.

MW: How so.

KS: Well, about 92 per cent of our housing stock is privately owned. That is a very, very high percentage. And so we're going to have to move to more housing that is owned and operated by the non-profit sector. The housing will probably look more or less the same but the way we run it will be very different. It won't be based on making profit. That means we can offer lower rents and then those buildings still make revenue so then we can use that extra revenue to put it into social housing, which would be kind of welfare-rate housing, which we also desperately need because the number of homeless in our city has doubled since 2005.

MW: Now you've also said your triple the empty home tax. Why do you think that will be effective?

KS: Well, the previous council did bring in a one per cent tax on empty homes and we know it's starting to fill units that were just purely being speculated upon, really empty condos essentially, they are starting to fill up now as the owners try to avoid the tax but we want to accelerate this as well. And actually we're finding now that some speculators are selling their condos to folks that want to live in them. So the tax is proving effective and tripling it will just amplify that effectiveness.

MW: Now the race was really, very tight. Your main rival Ken Sim has not even conceded and assuming he doesn't request a recount you'll be presiding over not just a divided council, but a divided city. I mean, how are you going to push forward with these housing policies without consensus on council or in the city more broadly?

KS: Well, as an MP for seven years I actually managed it kind of the unthinkable, I got a measure passed through the House of Commons even though it was opposed by the sitting majority Harper government, which was to bring electronic petitioning to Canada. So I have experience working across the aisle. There is this kind of a joke that I was the most popular MP in all parties but my own because I would work so often across the aisle, I'm very familiar with how to do that. I wrote a book with Michael Chong last year who is a Conservative MP and was also arrested with Elizabeth May trying to stop the Kinder Morgan pipeline. So I have worked across party lines often as an MP and I know I can do that in city council, I've already had some great conversations with councillors not really paying attention to what party they were elected with.

MW: An estimated 265 people have died from overdoses in Vancouver already this year. Your predecessor Gregor Robertson called for the decriminalization of some drugs and for safe supply, that is making available clean drugs that aren't tainted. What will you do to address the opioid epidemic?

KS: Well, I know Gregor was on the right path. The problem is he didn't have provincial or federal government, at least under the Harper regime, that was at all responsive to specific requests from the city. So I think I've said that I would strike an emergency task force with health care professionals and first line responders to give us immediate steps that we can take, and then it's my job to help go and get that implemented. So that would be too, for example, talking to the federal government about getting specific exemptions from the Criminal Code, to talk to the provincial government about some specific health care funding and to really focus on what I've been advised is the best step forward is this substitution programs and new ways of distributing these substitute drugs.

MW: Just one last question. Voter turnout was 39 per cent — that was down from last election. What are you going to do to make people feel like it's actually worth showing up to vote?

KS: Well, we have the worst electoral system in the world here. It's called an at-large system. It is an import from the United States. No other major city in Canada uses it. And in fact, it's been struck down as discriminatory based on race in dozens and dozens of U.S. cities. So I've said that this will be the last time we use this type of system. You can't believe the ballot, it literally falls off the edge of the table because it's so long because everybody is included on it. We don't have a ward system like you'd have in Toronto or in Montreal. And so we have to change this for ease for the electorate to understand what's going on. I think there was close to 200 names on the ballot without really much information about who to vote for. So this does have an impact on participation and we have to change it. It was an area of specialty for me as an academic at Simon Fraser University. So this is what I'll be working on with the province to get the changes here.

MW: Okay. Mr. Stewart, thanks very much and best of luck.

KS: Thank you very much your call.

JD: Kennedy Stewart is the mayor-elect of Vancouver. And after we recorded that interview mayoral candidate Ken Sim did concede the Vancouver election.

[Music: Lo-Fi Hip-Hop]

Cow photos coffee book

Guest: Bloyce Thompson

JD: Dairy farmers across Canada could use a little cheering up. For the most part, they are not happy with our new trade deal, the USMCA. But when the stress gets too much they can pour a glass of buttermilk put their feet up and peruse a new coffee table book full of gorgeous glamour shots of cows — not to be dismissive of their plight in any way. The book is a promotional tool for Bloyce Thompson, the owner and operator of Eastside Holsteins in Prince Edward Island. And we reached Mr. Thompson in Charlottetown.

MW: Mr. Thompson, these are not your usual snapshots of cows. Can you describe some of them to me?

BLOYCE THOMPSON: They’re some of our better genetic cows and cows that we sell breeding stock from and so we just take them to cool spots when we have the professional photographer in our area and it's kind of how we do our marketing, doing these scenic shots just to kind to attract more attention to our farm and the cow.

MW: So it's a form of advertising?

BT: Absolutely, yes.

MW: So can you describe some of them to me?

BT: The last ones we took were at Wood Islands, Prince Edward Island and that's where the ferry connects P.E.I. to Nova Scotia and we tried to get a picture with the cow with the ferry in the background and we got a really good picture of that and then we did a few more other scenic shots with the lighthouse. It was a really hot day that day, it was one of the hottest days summer so the cow was kind of overheating on us so we decided to take her into the ocean to cool her off and the photographer saw this amazing shot and she screamed ‘Hold the cow right there’ and she ran into the water with her camera and she took that amazing shot that's getting a lot of attention now. They definitely aren’t supermodels.

MW: There's also one in front of the provincial legislature. Why there?

BT: It's a trademark of Prince Edward Island and Charlottetown and we just showed up one Saturday morning. So we just went and took the picture and it turned out really good. Prince Edward Island is full of beautiful spots. So we've tried to cover the island and scenic pictures.

MW: When you're taking the photographs of the cows what kind of reaction does that elicit from the people around?

BT: They love it. We usually do it during tourist season so there's always people snapping pictures and asking us what we're doing and then they just admire it and they ask if they can pet the cow and stuff like that, so yeah, it's pretty a neat reaction. We've done sunrise shots and the beach in the morning and we walked by a couple sleeping on the beach and they kind of woke up with a pretty big surprise. It’s pretty neat stuff.

MW: That was more sort of a romantic shot?

[LAUGHTER]

BT: Yeah. That was the sunrise. It turned out really nice.

MW: So what sort of challenges does your photographer have in taking these pictures? I mean, you know, you're not exactly, as you say, working with top models.

BT: To keep the cow’s attention, it's pretty hard because a lot of things going on, they're out of their comfort zone when they're on these but most of them are show cows so they're very well trained and halter broken and everything but it's just to get them to look the right direction. She loves to get their ears popped ahead and stuff like that. She's amazing, Vicki Fletcher, she's been doing it for 20 years for us and…

MW: This is your photographer?

BT: Yeah, she's one of the best — probably one of the best photographers in the world.

MW: So what prompted you to do this?

BT: We've been doing it for 20 years. People have done it before, there’s breed magazines out there that we've tried to get the cover of. So that's how it started, I believe, and so now we just kind of do it for fun every year. A couple times a year we’ll load a cow on a trailer and we'll go for a drive see where we go where we end up.

MW: Have you ever thought of doing a cow calendar?

BT: Calendar? I don't know if anybody buys calendars anymore. I think we'll do a coffee table book as kind of what we're thinking of doing.

MW: Right. Now this is coming when Canadian dairy farmers are upset and angry about the new trade deal with United States and Mexico. How do you feel about what's happening?

BT: I think Justin Trudeau is going to have to buy a lot of coffee table books from us to help us out here. We're disappointed, we really are. And the dairy industry is a little down in the dumps now, we don't know what's going on. There's a lot of uncertainty with this deal. So I’m sure it’s not going to change anybody's mood but it might bring a smile anyway.

MW: Thanks very much for speaking with me.

BT: No problem, it was a pleasure.

JD: Bloyce Thompson is the owner and the operator of East Side Holsteins in Prince Edward Island. We reached him in Charlottetown. And if you would like to purchase this book bovine portraits it is set to be published next April.

[Music: Steady Guitar Strums]

Inflattable colon stolen

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: We're live inside the inflatable colon Dr. Dixon. Can you walk us through the colon and tell us what you're seeing here?

DR DAN DIXON: Sure. Welcome to our inflatable colon. And this is used to illustrate to patients what they might be seeing or what their doctor might be seeing when they undergo a colonoscopy.

JD: Dr. Dan Dixon of the University of Kansas Cancer Center beginning a brief guided tour of an enormous inflated colon. Today, Dr. Dixon and his colleagues and countless visitors are recalling the good times passing through that giant colon, because on Friday at a fundraising run someone decided it would be hilarious to steal that giant colon. Now, it can't have been easy for the thief to transplant the organ from the back of a pickup to another vehicle. The thing is three metres long and weighs 68 kilograms. At the very least you could say it took a lot of guts — or one big gut anyway. But it's not some kind of comedy colon. It is an educational tool, a visual aid that the U.S. National Cancer Coalition sends to events around the country. The idea, as you heard and as you would guess, is to provide a blown up image of the human colon and the various things doctors are looking for when they look up in there. It raises awareness of colon cancer, which is more easily treated if it's caught early. So ultimately this isn't some kind of amusing bouncy castle — it is a potentially life-saving inflatable. So, big colon thieves, take it back. For goodness sake just drop it off somewhere. No questions asked. And as you drive away it'll be happy entrails to you.

Back To Top »

Part 2: #MeToo apology, Uighur activist

#MeToo apology

Guest: Lezlie Lowe

JD: Earlier this month Lezlie Lowe wrote a column for the Halifax Chronicle Herald looking back at the year in the #MeToo movement. And in the article she mentioned three of her own #MeToo experiences with three men. She did not name names and she gave very few identifying details — and once it was published she thought that would be the end of it. But then an e-mail arrived. It was from someone else who remembered one of the assaults she mentioned — the man who did it. We reached Lezlie Lowe in Halifax. And just a heads up she will give details of what happened to her.

MW: Lezlie, first of all, tell me a bit about your original column? What was the point that you were making in writing about the assaults that you had experienced?

LEZLIE LOWE: So I was asked by the paper that I occasionally write with, The Chronicle Herald in Halifax, to reflect on the #MeToo movement after about a year, so it was kind of in the wake of the Kavanaugh Senate Judiciary hearings. And what I did was look at the kind of climate of what I would say is celebrity and #MeToo and how we're kind of deluged almost daily with these kinds of #MeToo reckoning stories that deal with famous people. And I I feel like that's not a great barometer of the way we should be looking at the success or failure of #MeToo because I think that, and I said this in the piece, the vast majority of men who are involved in these incidents are not celebrities. They are our friends and neighbours.

MW: And you told about some assaults that had happened to you, or near assaults?

LL: That's right. Yeah, so I wrote about and groping situation in high school and I wrote about an attempted rape in high school and I also wrote about a physical assault that was I think early high school that one happened.

MW: And in telling these stories you were careful not to name names. You didn't give out any identifying information. Why did you make that choice?

LL: I gave their professions only, and I wanted to do that because I wanted to underscore the idea that these are not, as I said before, celebrities. But also I didn't want to out these people for these long ago things that had happened.

MW: And yet one of the men actually recognized himself and got in touch with you. Can you tell us about that moment when you — what was it an e-mail that you received from him?

LL: That's right. So the column ran on a Monday morning in the paper and on the Thursday following — so three days later — I was just about to lecture in my job, standing in front of 100 students and I opened my e-mail just to check it briefly and there was an e-mail. I saw the name and I thought ‘Oh dear.’ And so I read the e-mail quickly before I taught. And on the face of it, and then when I went back to it later, it was a very heartfelt apology. And what it said was ‘I just read the piece that you wrote. I think I'm one of the people you're mentioning. I don't know for sure but here's what I remember and want to apologize for.’ And he laid out three specific incidents that he recalled and including the people who were there who had witnessed two of them.

MW: Were these all incidents that you had clearly remembered as well?

LL: Right. So that was one of the extraordinary things about this e-mail was I had not recalled two of the incidents he mentioned. So one was the incident that I had written about the column, which was I was groped in the back of a car, there were two other people there. And the other two were not anything I had remembered. One was another groping, which had happened at a dance and the other was he had said he had kind of closed the door in a bathroom while we were in there together and would not let me out until I kissed him, which he said I did. So I wrote him back and said ‘I don't remember these things. I believe you but I don't remember them.’ And I felt it was really important — and kind of ironic if you think about it — that I felt I needed to say to him ‘I believe you.’

MW: Now in the course of the #MeToo movement, which is just a bit over a year old now, we've seen many men apologize after being publicly outed, and for you what was it like having this experience of someone apologizing without having been named or shamed or in some way sort of forced into it?

LL: So there are two things about his apology. One was — and this really did hit me — the fact that he did not have to do this. I mean, he could have, and I wrote this in the follow up piece that I that I wrote, he could have read the piece recognized himself and thought ‘I wonder what's for dinner tonight?’ And he could have been quite confident that I would move on with my life, as I have for the past 30 years and not really talk about it anymore, and he didn't have to fess up. And also the kind of tone and content of his apology — it was exceptional. It was complete vulnerability. He did not say ‘I did this thing and I was just a kid or I didn't know any better or that's just how it was back then.’ He said ‘I did these things.’ He listed them very, very clearly. He said ‘I have no excuse. I feel terrible. I have thought about this in the intervening years. I've always wanted to reach out to you and apologize,’ and he just said ‘I'm sorry.’

MW: Yeah. Well, obviously there was a level of trust with you for him to be able to do that on some level. I mean, one of the things that struck me in reading your column about this is you don't say whether or not you accepted his apology. The last line in your column when you're talking about receiving the apology, you write: “And that is something I can guarantee I won't forget.” Why did you choose not to let us know? And of course, I'm curious. Do you accept his apology?

LL: Yes, I do accept it. I do accept it. And I think that's a big way forward in terms of the #MeToo movement. I don't think all women need to need to let all men off the hook for their actions and I don't believe that. However, I think there is a power that women have in freeing men who are able to come to the point that this man was able to come to, which is to say to recognize a wrong, to address the wrong — making apologizing okay, I think, is a really powerful thing.

MW: Lezlie, thank you so much for talking with me today.

MW: Thanks for having me on the show.

JD: We reached Lezlie Lowe in Halifax. Ms. Lowe is a columnist with the Halifax Herald.

[Music: Ambient Tones]

Cam Levins marathon record

Guest:

JD: It was one small step for a marathon man and a big leap for the Canadian men's record time. When Cam Levins crossed the finish line at the Toronto Waterfront Marathon yesterday, he not only completed his first marathon — he smashed a record that had been on the books for 43 years. Mr. Levin’s time — two hours nine minutes 25 seconds — was forty four seconds faster than the Canadian men's previous record of two hours ten minutes nine seconds, which Mr. Levins set incidentally after recovering from a serious foot injury. Well, this morning Cam Levins spoke with Matt Galloway host of Metro Morning, CBC Toronto, about the record performance.

SOUNDCLIP

CAM LEVINS: I'm a little beat for sure, especially just the early turn around leaving this morning but looking forward to a bit of a break here and I'm sure I'll feel great after a couple weeks.

MATT GALLOWAY: Going into this race, this is your first marathon, you had had a great career before this point but a marathon is completely different. What were your expectations?

CL: I knew I was very fit and I thought if things went well I could run a good time, maybe get close to that record. But, it's like you said, the marathon is a different beast and just so many things can affect it outside of your control and especially being the first one. It is very, very unknown to me.

MG: Why did you want to go from running shorter distances to running the marathon?

CL: I think it's the natural transition for a lot of distance athletes like myself running the 5k and 10k on the track. But for me I had very serious surgery on my left ankle in middle of 2016 and I actually had some difficulty doing track workouts from that point on, just handling the corners of the track and so just sort of a natural fit that I could do the workouts that the marathon required a little bit easier. It was just easier on my body. As a result I just really took to the training and it continued on I loved the corporation and I'm hooked now.

MG: In that recovery, you had a serious foot injury, you didn't run for a long period of time — were you concerned that there was a point that maybe you wouldn't be able to run at all?

CL: I don't think I ever faced that. But I think that was a very serious concern with the surgery. I mean, if you want to come back from something serious like that that can't be an option. But I had serious doubts at different points in my recovery about whether I even wanted to continue to do this. And it’s a very hard road to come back from.

MG: This record, Jerome Drayton's record, stood for 43 years and people have gotten close to the record, they've almost beaten the record and then because of the marathon and the fact that it's a long race and anything can happen things have happened and it's fallen apart. At what point in the race yesterday did you start to think seriously that you might have it in your sights?

CL: The reality is I didn't know exactly how close I was until probably the last few kilometres and then I knew with absolute certainty that I had it with about 500 metres left. But up to that point anything could still happen. I could completely blow it. But yeah, by that point I was definitely just enjoying it and taking it in.

JD: That was runner, now marathoner, Cam Levins speaking with CBC Toronto's Matt Galloway this morning. Yesterday Mr. Levins broke the 43-year-old Canadian men’s record while running his very first marathon in Toronto. That decades-old record was set by Jerome Drayton at the Fukuoka Marathon in Japan in 1975. The following year after he won that marathon for a third time Mr. Drayton spoke with CBC Morningside hosts Harry Brown and Maxine Cooke about what it took to win.

SOUNDCLIP

JEROME DRAYTON: It was a sunny clear day, which is a bit unusual. Normally when I’ve been there in the past it’s either been rainy or cloudy or a similar type of weather.

HARRY BROWN: Yeah, I saw a picture, were you wearing sunglasses?

JD: Yes I was, yes.

HB: That’s pretty unusual too, isn’t it?

JD: Well, my eyes are fairly unusual that sunlight so when the sun’s out I have wear sunglasses.

MAXINE COOKE: What are you doing in Honolulu?

JD: Taking in the sun and the surf.

HB: Now you started off — you ran for about, according to the report I've got here, you ran for about five kilometres in the pack?

JD: Yes, I did.

HB: And were you setting up your own mind what your pace would be at that stage?

JD: Yes, my plan was to run it up as hard as possible — well not flat out — but well under five-minutes-per-mile from the beginning. They give you time every five kilometre mark, so the first five kilometre was just used to warm up, let the system warm up gradually, and then also to find out from the time just what kind of pace you’re on. I was about ten seconds behind at that first marker. So I put in a much harder effort for the next five kilometres but I ended up with the same time, which indicated to me right away that this was not going to be a very fast marathon. I think the reason for that was because Ihadn't been able to do enough speed work. At around 28 kilometres I started to feel really good myself and then I started to push. There is a point when fatigue sets, both emotional and physical, and the fellow that can hit hardest there and keep at it the longest.

JD: From December of 1976 that was long distance runner Jerome Drayton on CBC’s Morningside after he won the Fukuoka Marathon in Japan for a third time. Again, yesterday Mr. Drayton’s longstanding marathon record Canadian men's time was broken by Cam Levins of Black Creek, British Columbia who came in first at the Toronto Waterfront Marathon — his first ever marathon.

[Music: Ambient Tones]

Uighur activist

Guest: Rushan Abbas

JD: Rushan Abbas wants to know where her family members have gone. The Uighur activists aunt and sister recently disappeared from their homes in Xinjiang Province in China. And the circumstances of their disappearance led Ms. Abbas to believe that they had been taken to an internment camp in the country's far west. Its camps are often called re-education camps. Critics however, say the truth of what goes on in those facilities is far more brutal. We reached Rushan Abbas in Washington, D.C.

MW: Ms. Abbas, when did you first realize that your relatives might be in trouble?

RUSHAN ABBAS: I didn't realize until like 5-6 days after they disappeared because I do not communicate with my relatives back home since the spring of 2017 I do not talk to anybody in East Turkestan because the situation there got pretty harsh to the Uighur people. I spoke at the event at the Hudson Institute on Sept. 5, 2018 and then a few days later I heard from my relatives that my sister and my aunt, they both were gone. They disappeared.

MW: And no one has heard anything from them since?

RA: No, no one has heard anything since Sept. 11, 2018.

MW: Was there any indication of how they disappeared?

RA: No, just their phones are off. My aunt lives in a city called Artush, I don't have any communications with her and I heard for a relatives in Europe she was just gone. She was taken away from her home. My sister has also not been seen. None of her neighbuors or anybody have seen her — her colleagues, her friends — have seen her since Sept. 11^th.

MW: Now what makes you believe they've been seized by authorities and taken to one of these so-called re-education camps?

RA: Because my sister and my aunt both are really close with relatives. They always constantly communicate with them via cell phone. This is the first time ever they just disappeared like that. And that's what's happening to all the Uighur got people back home. They just disappear. Nobody can ask their whereabouts or what happened to them. They just disappear. That's how the people are ending up in those concentration camps, which kind of claims are ‘re-education camps’ but they have been claiming those are vocational training centres, they are re-education centres. In that case why don’t their family members know anything about them? They just disappear like they went into a black hole.

MW: Is it conceivable to you that they might have done or said something that might have drawn attention to them of the authorities?

RA: Not at all because my aunt is just a housewife. She's not somebody who talks anything about religion or political things, and my sister too. She's very a quiet person, a retired medical doctor and she retired at a pretty young age for a health reasons. She's 56 years old now. She's not involved with any kind of political activities or opinion or expression. Other than being my relatives, my sister my aunt both, don't fit into any kind of criteria of the people who are taken to the re-education camps. They are not influential. They are not educators, they are not writers or public figures. They are not religious people either. Other than just being related to me they shouldn't have any reason for taking to those camps.

MW: So when you say ‘other than being my relatives,’ are you implying that that's the reason they might have been taken away?

RA: Yes. Very strongly I believe that is the only reason that they were taken away because I spoke on Sept. 5th as one of the panellists at one of the think tanks here in Washington. Only six days later my sister and my aunt both disappeared on the same day while they are 1,400 kilometers away from each other. I think the Chinese government is trying to send me a message or intimidate me by taking my family members hostage.

MW: And obviously you must be worried about their well-being. What do you know about how they might be treated and in one of these camps?

RA: Well, I have been very outspoken about the situation in the camps. I knew the conditions are extremely harsh in there. That's why when Chinese government is claiming that these are vocational training centres, but we know from witnesses, former detainees in the camps and also reliable news accounts, those vocational training centres is that they are being guarded with armed guards, barbed wire overcrowded rooms and malnutrition treatment, dehydration. They don't provide enough drinking water, very poor sanitation, the conditions are extremely poor.

MW: You have been very outspoken about what's going on in China in these camps and some of your relatives have disappeared. We don't know for sure that there is a correlation but there could be, as you yourself say, but you continue to speak out. Are you afraid that perhaps other members of your family might pay a price?

RA: I'm afraid, yes. There are some extended relatives that I have. But what the Chinese government doing today, brutally persecuting the Uighur people — this is not just the systematic human rights abuse anymore, this is like a crime against humanity. So I'm not going to stop, I'm going to continue to be the voice for the voiceless. The world stood up and said never again to ethnic genocide once before. So I'm going to call the world again with the same voice to say never again with the same strength and same conviction.

MW: Ms. Abbas, good luck in locating your sister and your aunt and thanks for speaking with me today.

RA: Thank you so much.

MW: Thank you.

JD: Rushan Abbas is the founder of One Voice One-Step, a group that advocates for the human rights of the Uighur people. We reached her in Washington, D.C. And you can find more on this story at our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Trance Bass]

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Part 3: Barbara Winters feature interview on Nathan Cirillo

Barbara Winters feature interview on Nathan Cirillo

Guest: Barbara Winters

JD: It was four years ago today that the nation watched horrified as a soldier was shot dead just steps from Parliament Hill. Most of us were far away from the gunman who killed Corporal Nathan Cirillo. Barbara Winters was right there. She had just walked away from the Cenotaph where Corporal Cirillo was standing as a ceremonial guard. She heard the shots and she went back to help the wounded soldier, joining five others who struggle to try to save his life that morning. Here's Barbara Winters speaking with Carol not long after the shooting.

SOUNDCLIP

BARBARA WINTERS: There was a gentleman at his feet and another gentleman from the military at his head. And so I just slipped in between them where there was space.

CAROL OFF: You spoke to him too, didn’t you?

BW: I did. I actually tried to speak to him the entire time.

CO: What did you say to him?

BW: I told him…

[SOBBING]

BW: I told him he was loved and that he was a brave man, and that he was a good man. I said ‘Just think of what you were doing when this happened. Just think you were standing at the Cenotaph. You were honouring others. Just think of how proud that will make your family. Your parents are so proud of you and your family must love you so much. Your family loves you. Your military family loves you. Look at these people we're all here helping you, we’re all trying to do what we can for you. We all love you. The military loves you. Listen there's a colonel here helping you.’ I just repeated, repeated, repeated that he was a brave man and that he was a good man and that he was loved.

CO: Do you think he heard you Barbara?

BW: I think he did. I had no indication. I think he did.

JD: That was Barbara Winters in conversation with Carol in October of 2014 after the shooting death of Corporal Nathan Cirillo. The years since then have not been easy from Ms. Winters. She has thought a lot about Corporal Cirillo and about what that day of his death means. As part of our 50th Anniversary programming, Barbara Winters joined Carol from our Ottawa studio for a feature interview.

CAROL OFF: Barbara, welcome back to As It Happens.

BARBARA WINTERS: Thank you very much.

CO: When we spoke with you, as you can hear yourself in that tape, you were raw. When you look back what did those minutes that you spent, the ones you talked about there, what did those minutes you spent trying to comfort Corporal Nathan Cirillo, what did they mean to you?

BW: They mean everything, in the sense that it's very rare to have an opportunity to have a moment of purity, a moment where there's no artifice, where everything you say and do truly matters — and it matters to somebody other than yourself. And I will, frankly, always be thankful that I was able to do what I did. And I think I am proud of those 15 minutes. I think I'm proud of my actions. I think that they meant a lot to other people besides myself — and I'm grateful for that.

CO: They meant a lot to the family Corporal Cirillo, don't they? I mean, that someone was there with him at that time and speaking to him of love, which is what you did, you were telling him how he was loved, you knew to do that in this moment to purity, as you describe it. And what do you think that you being there and speaking to him like that meant to Corporal Cirillo’s family?

BW: Well, I guess I should point out that it wasn't just me, that there were five other people who went to help Corporal Cirillo. And I was fortunate in the sense that I was able to come up with some words and to be in the position where I could speak to him. So it wasn't just me who responded. But in terms of the message I hope that got through to Nathan Cirillo, I think it gave comfort to his family who I know was concerned about his last moments as anybody would be. And when I heard from his family and from others, many, many others who wrote to me either by letter or by e-mail or who spoke to me, I know that a very clear message was that that is something that people need to hear when they're in acute distress, when they're dying, when they're confused and in pain and alone.

CO: How did you know to do that?

BW: I didn't know. I felt it, frankly. I do recall an incident where I had had a concussion and I couldn't see anything and I couldn't move and I couldn't speak but I could hear everything. And I guess that memory came to the fore somehow. I don't remember remembering that but I think I knew that you can still hear. When you can't speak you feel very powerless, and so I think somehow I just understood what it would be like to be in that situation and tried to provide comfort.

CO: People who heard you that day in that interview, we were just swamped with the numbers of people who contacted us to say what that interview meant to them and that you were there at the Cenotaph, with others of course, but that you were there with a man who was dying and that you, a complete stranger, you would just be in that moment of purity, as you call it. And I just want to know when you hear yourself — I know how others responded to it. When you hear your voice in that interview what do those words mean to you? What do you hear when you hear yourself?

BW: I hear the truth. I hear how accurate that was. I hear my own emotions. I can relive the moment when I listen to it and I hope I hear a message that has meaning for other people and that will be remembered.

CO: But you could have been saying ‘We're going to get that guy. The police are after him. He's toast.’ You could have been saying all kinds of things of that nature. But you didn't. Something inside of you was coming out at that moment. And I just wonder when you hear it what it must be like to hear that? I can't imagine.

BW: It's true, we could have said a number of things, or I could have said a number of things, but what I remember is that initially people fled the scene. So there was a great deal quiet actually initially. It was very, very quiet. People had left or hid or ran away. And then the mass of people 10-15 minutes later who were watching and taking pictures they had not yet arrived. So initially it was quite quiet but slowly it built up in terms of noise, in terms of chaos, in terms of yelling or panic. And as the minutes ticked by and the help wasn't coming I think that those voices got louder and as people started intruding and reacting to the situation that noise got louder too. And I remember thinking ‘He can hear this, he can hear this and that's not what he needs to hear.’ You need to have the situation about you, you need to hear comfort. And I know that we were very focused on Corporal Cirillo, we were exceptionally focused on trying to save his life and trying to be there for him. And for myself, I can't describe it in any other way other than to say that in those minutes there was nothing else in the world but that man and what he was going through. And there was nothing else in the world but to try and save his life and to try and provide comfort through words and gestures. And that's a very rare moment — to get outside yourself, to live outside your mind and your body, to think of somebody other than yourself. I remember that, I remember just focusing 100 per cent on Nathan.

CO: How often do you think about Corporal Cirillo?

BW: Every day. There's not a day that goes by that I don't remember Nathan or the situation or what I have been through or what others have gone through. It's difficult to watch news. It's difficult to watch other terrorist attacks, either in Canada or abroad. And I certainly have a different understanding of those events now, and I have a very deep understanding of what people who are involved in them are going through and will go through. Everybody says this on television shows, in reality — police say this, detectives say this — they say you're never the same, your life has changed. And so mine did. And I think of that event or I'm reminded of that event or that event comes back to me in some way every single day.

CO: But when you speak of police or soldiers or firefighters who have this — it stays with them. You were just an ordinary person going to work in Ottawa, walking along the street headed to your job and you were suddenly in this situation and you're not prepared. I mean, if you're a policeman or a fireman you're perhaps prepared that something might happen, but you were not, were you?

BW: No, I think that's very true. And it's dramatic and it's traumatic. The event itself is like being slammed into a wall at high speed. I have, in the years that have passed, sometimes used the words broken. I find myself saying broken or injured and I think that those words come to my mind because that's how it felt. It's astounding how much events like this can affect a person. And to me the minutes ticked by. It was close to 15 minutes before any help, before the ambulance arrived. And those are very long minutes and you have no tools with you accept your own hands and you're doing the best you can. But additionally, that day went on. We were taken to the police station and we were interviewed. We had to wait for hours actually while the police responded to the situation. And so I didn't go home until, I didn't make it home until 4:00 o'clock. And I remember walking in the door and just going immediately to the washroom and throwing up. I was just sick. I was just sick to my stomach, repeatedly.

CO: And now it's been four years.

BW: It's been four years.

CO: Do you still feel broken?

BW: Yes. I'm not alone. You will hear people who have been through similar amounts use similar language and I am not alone in trying to grapple with the events — on a personal level, on an emotional level on an intellectual level — and I go back and forth. I go back and forth just to experiencing the events, the aftermath, the reactions of people — both positive and, frankly, negative. I go between experiencing that on an immediate personal level and thinking about the events from a more distant analytical sort of perspective.

CO: I'm speaking with Barbara Winters and she was one of six people who tried to save the life of Corporal Nathan Cirillo as he lay dying at the Cenotaph four years ago today. Barbara, you and the others ran toward Corporal Cirillo that day after the shots were fired, three shots entered his body and you didn't even know whether the gunman was there or even if there was maybe another shooter, you didn't know anything about what you were running into and yet you did. What is that instinct that made you do that?

BW: Well, at the time I answered that I felt that it was within most Canadians’ hearts that most people would try and respond — but I'm not so sure anymore. I'm not so sure that people will turn around and run towards gunfire instead of away.

CO: I want to play for you what you told us that day.

BW: Sure.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: You turned around and you went back. Others were fleeing when they heard those shots, you returned. What was that instinct?

BW: I don't know. I think it's human nature to run towards somebody to help them.

CO: Do you still believe that.

BW: I believe that it's human nature. Most people will try and help someone. I'm not sure that it's human nature to do that in extreme circumstances. So people, on a daily level, perform little kindnesses to each other — even to strangers. But I'm not convinced anymore that all people would place themselves in danger or that all people would respond by going towards that danger. I've had some time to think about this and it does seem to me it's a characteristic of individuals. And I don't know where that characteristic comes from. I don't know if everybody has it, but I do think that people can practice. You know, I heard that the entire spectrum of reactions to my actions and to my words. And some of them — very few — were ‘I would have done this’ or ‘I would have done that’ or if ‘I'd been there.’ And I always think you don't know what you will do. You might think that you are going to react one way but you don't know. And it's very probable that any individual will not run to help. And we know that because we see the pictures. We see the pictures after the Danforth shootings and after the truck that ran down the pedestrians and in situations where there are bombings — we see the pictures of people fleeing. We see the pictures of people callously walking by others. We see the pictures of people photographing and filming with their iPhones in some sort of perverted idea that that's an appropriate action rather than helping the person who needs the help. And if you want to be someone who runs to help then one way to do that is to practice that in a small little way. You know, the question ‘Why did I do what I did?’ was asked more than once. And it's funny the things that come to your mind. But I remember being in my 20s and I was on a bus in Vancouver and there was an old woman and she had a bunch of grocery bags and we were stopped at a bus stop. The bus was trying to merge into traffic so it had its doors closed, it had its signal light on, but the woman came and knocked on the door to be let on the bus and the bus driver wouldn't let her on the bus. And this person was clearly impoverished. She had a number of bags with her and the bus driver wouldn't let her on. And I remember saying ‘Open the door, open the door’ and he wouldn't open the door and then he merged into traffic and I said ‘Shame on you. You should be ashamed.’ I remember that I was shocked that other people didn't feel the same way because someone told me to be quiet and I was very distressed for a long time that somebody would say to me ‘Be quiet. We need to get on our way, we need to go.’ So I think you practice, you practice saying ‘Do something, and do it for somebody else.’ I mean, we often hear how we should stand up for our rights and how we should be empowered. And I think that that's all true but there are moments where we need to stand up for somebody who is vulnerable or somebody that is not yourself, that you have no vested interest in saying ‘Do something to help this person,’ or to try and help them yourself. And I think you can practice that on a very small level. It's okay to call out bad behaviour and it's important to call out bad behaviour when you're not being affected because you need to let society know, people need to know that it's not all self-interest.

CO: Did you get any recognition for what you did that day?

BW: We did. We got some. There was nothing from the city or the province. The Governor General's office sent us a commendation from the government of Canada — from the state if I could put it that way — that's what we received. But St. John's Ambulance went the extra mile for all of us. They awarded us a gold medal. And I understand that they had to seek the permission of the Queen to do that because they recognized that we ran towards danger to provide assistance to somebody. For St. John's Ambulance they hold that in very high regard.

CO: I just wonder, you know, because there was so much recognition of what happened, those who had responded on Parliament Hill, this is where Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, the shooter, he went afterwards as we remember and this is where he died was inside the centre block of the Parlaiment buildings. And there was a huge recognition of those who were involved in that operation. Was there is much understood and as much recognition for those of you who were at the Cenotaph?

BW: Well Maclean's did an article about us at the one-year mark.

CO: I mean official recognition.

BW: No, there was no official recognition. And I did receive recognition in the House but that was not an invitation. I happened to be in the House that day. I was not with my friends who went to help Nathan Cirillo, so that was unfortunate for them. So no, there has been no official recognition. And that carries on when there are statements about the events, whether it's from a member of the government or if it's a press release, it refers to us as others and I've done a great deal thinking about that. And I find that troubling, and I find it troubling obviously on a personal level. But I find it troubling for what that means. The implications of simply referring to people who run to help, who run to danger — to simply refer to them as others. Because I can tell you that the first responders are — and I'm not the first person to say this — are the last responders. They are not the first persons on the scene. The first persons on the scene, whether it's the fisher people who went out in their boats 20 years ago to search for survivors, or whether it's people in Nunavut who ran to help when the plane crashed, or the people in Toronto who went to help those who had been run down by cars or shot — it is not the police or the fire people or the ambulance drivers who are there — it is Canadians who are there. It is people on the street who choose to turn one way while everybody else is turning the other way. And it's those people, in all probability, who will be affected for the rest of their lives and yet they choose to do that. They choose to put somebody before themselves. And to refer to any of those people as others, to me, is troubling. Because, to me, those people who go out on boats, those people who bend down on sidewalks and try to save a life or to comfort people who've been hit by a car, to run to people who have been in an airplane crash — those people are the ones who are exhibiting Canadian values. Those people are the ones that we should admire because they have no training, no stake in the matter — and I can say this with certainty — they are sacrificing. They are sacrificing parts of themselves, probably for the rest of their life, for somebody they don’t even know. And I follow the news, like everybody else I follow the news, and I follow occasional conversations about Canadian values and I think we should change that conversation. I think we should change the conversation from what we don't like to what we admire. I think we should change the conversation to: What is it about Canada and Canadians that we value? And if you value bravery, if you value sacrifice, if you value compassion, if you value openness and concern and selflessness — then these people exhibit those values and they should be named. They should be recognized and named, they should not be referred to as ‘others.’

CO: How do you want people to see you and to see what you did?

BW: I think they should see what I did as something they can do.

CO: And how do you want them to see you?

BW: I want them to remember that I ran back, that I could not have provided the words that I did, I could not have spoken to Nathan if I hadn't run back. And that's a very difficult question, but I hope, I don't know if this is true, but I hope they see me as someone who is very Canadian, someone who represented what I truly believe Canadians are. I believe Canadians are kind, I believe Canadians sacrifice. I believe Canadians are good people. So, I hope they remember me as a good Canadian.

CO: Well, I would hope that all Canadians are what you just described. I do know one thing, what you describe is what you are.

BW: Thank you very much.

CO: And I know you could not have done otherwise than what you did that day.

BW: Thank you for saying that. Thank you for having me.

CO: You're very special. And Canadians admire you, admire your courage.

BW: Thank you again.

CO: Thank you Barbara.

BW: Bye-bye.

CO: Bye.

JD: That was Barbara Winters. She is a lawyer for the federal government and on October 22nd of 2014 she was one of six people who tried to save the life of Corporal Nathan Cirillo. Ms. Winters joined us from our Ottawa studio. And if you would like to hear that interview again or if you would like to share that interview with someone else, you can find it on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih. You can also find a special video that we have made of Ms. Winter's conversation with Carol from the week of Corporal Cirillo's shooting.

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Oct. 22, 2018 episode transcript

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