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The Current Transcript for October 17, 2018

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: White widow, the Medi Melon, that one is really tasty. We have the Alien Irene, the M superstar.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: It comes with dramatic names, built in puns, endless choices and serious agricultural hybrid research. But depending on where you live in Canada, the legalization of marijuana for recreational use will be still just a pipe dream and don't even think about edibles yet. From Newfoundland, where budding businesses broke open at midnight to Ontario, where it is online or nothing, to places in between. Where individual communities have already said no, where major corporations are poised to expand, Canada's marijuana legalization landscape is as varied as our topography. So we have come to the place that has triggered all of the change, Ottawa. It was a promise of the Trudeau Liberals in the election that brought them to power. There is a lot of enthusiasm, but there are also many concerns.

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VOICE: A lot of parents, including me are more than a little concerned about marijuana legalization. I worry about the impact it will have on my children and society in general.

AMT: Over the next 90 minutes, we are asking for answers. You will hear from the parliamentary point man on pot, Bill Blair. In our second half hour we've got a panel to explore the implications from the legal and social to the commercial and the compassionate. In our third half hour, we invite our audience to ask questions and offer their views. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. I'm here in Ottawa at the Canadian Museum of Nature and we are going Into the Weeds with this special edition of The Current.

[Applause]

Back To Top »

'Legalization 1.0': Cannabis is legal now, but what problems still need to be solved?

Guests: Bill Blair, Manisha Krishnan, Eugene Oscapella, Hilary Black, Vera Etches

AMT: This is CannaBliss. It's a pot shop in Ottawa's Little Italy and it's been selling recreational weed since August of 2017. It's one of more than a dozen illegal pot shops operating in the city. The smell is unmistakable when you walk through the door.

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VOICE 1: My name is Blaine. I'm a budtender. Generally, when people come in,after they've been ID'd they come through the budroom door and they're greeted. We ask them what they're looking for.

VOICE 2: We have a AK God, the White Widow, the Medi Melon, that one is really tasty. We have theAlien Irene, the M Superstar, Bernie's goal, it's really hybrids today.

AMT: There's no shortage of options for discerning consumers.

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VOICE: On the other side of the room we have all of our tinctures, as well as our CBD products. We have our shatter and the THC distillate, as well as our disposable vape pens.

AMT: Many of these products will still be illegal.

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VOICE 1: People love edibles and people love concentrates, so they need to have those options available, otherwise they're going to be forced back into the black market.

VOICE 2: So it comes to a total of $26. $14 is your change. Would you like a brown bag with your purchase?

AMT: It would seem as if Blaine's shop would have had a head start on the legal market, but under Ontario's cannabis regulations, he's gotta close.

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VOICE: For the retail aspect of it, I'm out of it until April, until there's a legal shop that opens. We're just going to have to wait and see, unfortunately it's just how it is.

AMT: You heard him correctly/ in one of the many quirks of the transition to legal weed, this busy store will be emptied out and vacant on the day cannabis is legalized in Canada. And those living in Canada's most populous province will only be allowed to buy legal cannabis online through the government's door, for at least the first six months.

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VOICE: It's pretty crazy when you think about that.

AMT: Out in front of the store, activist and media representative Shawn MacAleese says it's unfair that these shops will have to shut down.

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VOICE: It's extremely powerfully ironic that stores such as CannaBliss that openly sell recreationally to adults 19 and older, that these sort of businesses engaged in civil disobedience, they fought unjust laws and by all standards, these places have fought the fight and they've won. So the irony is extremely powerful in that these shops have now created the perfect storm for the government to come in and shut them down entirely.

AMT: Ontario's government says private pot shops will be allowed to open as of April of 2019, contravening the laws before then brings serious consequences and fines.

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VOICE: It's unrealistic for a company to stay open past the 17th at least here in Ontario.

AMT: And Shawn MacAleese knows the recall too well. He worked for a different store operating illegally that was raided by police. Two years later on the eve of legalization, he was still fighting those charges in court.

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VOICE: We fought for so long and things slowly, slowly changed to the point where something you did six months ago or a year ago is not punishable by law anymore and you're still dealing with the consequences of something that isn't illegal. So it's frustrating, it's definitely frustrating.

AMT: Shawn MacAleese has been pushing for legalization since he was a teenager, smoking up on Parliament Hill to mark 420 every year. But for him and for other activists and for the businesses he speaks for, legalization is not shaping up the way they hoped.

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VOICE: I don't want to say it's scary, but it's a great degree of uncertainty, where we're given a set of rules that we don't even know if they're going to be held up in court, let alone all the other things that you know we're hoping to not get busted with, but I can't say that I'm not happy. Legalization is obviously a great thing. It's a monumental piece of legislation. It's history in the world. I'm glad to be a part of any sort of movement that has created that, but it's definitely a concerning landscape to look forward to.

AMT: So those are some scenes playing out very near the shadow of parliament and a clear indication that while recreational cannabis may be legal now, it is not the Wild West. The federal law has opened the door to weed for pleasure. But just how far that door gets opened now depends on provincial and municipal regulation. To help us get a sense of how this new era will unfold, I'm joined by the person responsible for bringing the new federal law into force. Bill Blair is the Federal Minister of Border Security and Organized Crime Reduction. Mr. Blair joins me on stage now, hello and welcome.

BILL BLAIR: Hello and thank you.

AMT: So the day is finally upon us. If all works out as your government hopes, what will legalization accomplish?

BB: Well, I think it's very important to begin by remembering that we are in fact lifting the prohibition. That's what legalization is, what we're replacing. A failed system of criminal prohibition, with a very comprehensive system of strict regulation of the production, distribution and consumption of cannabis right across the country. And we're doing that because there's an acknowledgment there are significant risks for this drug. We don't want to continue criminalizing another generation of young kids for the possession of cannabis, but we have a responsibility to protect young people to displace the illicit market. When adult consumers choose to use this drug, they'll know the potency, purity and provenance of what it is they're consuming. They'll be able to make healthier and safer choices and everyone will have access to information that'll help inform their choices, so that they can do it safer and in a more socially responsible way.

AMT: Now your background is of course policing. You were the chief of police in Toronto, among other places. Now you spent a lot of your career enforcing drug prohibition. You were even an undercover drug cop at one point, am I right?

BB: Yes ma'am.

AMT: So how did you come around philosophically to the point that you could be the one to usher this in?

BB: You know I spent all of my life keeping communities safe and protecting kids. And the prohibition as it existed well had led to a situation where we had the highest rates of cannabis use among our kids in the world. The cannabis they were using was unregulated, untested, often unsafe and they were at risk. There were also social harms associated to young people use, who they were purchasing it from, often from the local drug dealer and the consequences of getting caught with simple possession results in a criminal record for those kids. And so the work that I have done my entire life in keeping communities safe and protecting kids, I believe that there was a far better way of doing it. By lifting the prohibition you could actually regulate the substance and we've implemented what I think is best described as a public health framework, that looks at the social and health harms and through regulation, reduce, mitigate and eliminate those harms.

AMT: And a lot of this depends on where you live in Canada. It may be legal now, it's not necessarily easily available. You must have a sense of how the municipalities and provinces are going to regulate. Do you feel they are generally sticking to the spirit of the federal legislation?

BB: Absolutely and that was a conversation I've crossed the country several many times. There are different places in Canada with different context, different standards, community standards. You know British Columbia is a very different place than Prince Edward Island. So we've gone to the provinces and looked at how they regulate alcohol and given them the authority and still need to acknowledge the authority that they possess to have them bring in regulations that make sense for them in their context that they're prepared to enforce. And working with municipalities, municipalities also have demonstrated tremendous leadership in things like controlling tobacco for example. And so cities have an important role to play in this.

AMT: How worried should Canadians be that their municipal government might try to stifle the freedoms that your government has just given them?

BB: Well under the federal law, it is no longer a crime to possess a certain amount of cannabis, as long as that cannabis has been produced under the Health Canada overseen regulated production system and it's distributed through a provincially regulated distribution system. Every province and territory is establishing an online system where adults will be able to acquire cannabis through that online system. And they're all in various stages and have different approaches with respect to the bricks and mortar, the opening of stores. You know there are some limitations, a municipality can and does have the authority to bring in. But at the same time, it will no longer be a criminal offence to possess and to consume cannabis for people who are adults.

AMT: Is there anything about the rollout of cannabis legislation legalization that keeps you up at night?

BB: Well you know I recognized right from the outset cause we've been working on this for two and a half years. It's a process, not an event. And I know everybody focused on the day in which the law comes into effect. I want to ensure that you know, particularly for young people, they have enough information now to make start to make informed decisions about their own health and about their own safety and so those are the things that we've been working very hard to make sure in place. There's also, I think a very legitimate concern about impaired driving. So we've been working really carefully and closely with law enforcement community to give them the legal authorities access to the training and the technologies that they said. I was really pleased earlier this week when they publicly said they'd been working hard and they're ready to keep our roadways safe.

AMT: That is, according to a survey by the Desjardins Group, that's the biggest single concern for Canadians is impaired driving.

BB: And it's rather interesting, first of all it's been a problem for decades. It's been against the law to drive under the influence of drugs since 1925, but up until very recently the police did not have the legislated authorities. They did not have access to the training and they did not have access to the technology in detecting and then therefore deterring people who are driving while impaired. Well they've got those tools now. They've got those resources and that training and we're also it's not just about enforcing the law. We're investing significantly in public education because people have to understand the risks. They have to understand the effect that that any amount of cannabis, but certainly in high concentrations can have on their safe ability to operate a motor vehicle and they have to know that they can get caught and there are consequences.

AMT: Just last week Liberal MP John Oliver admitted he doesn't know the rules, he'll have to follow when it comes to consuming cannabis. If a sitting Liberal MP is foggy on the law, does that not suggest there's a long way to go with public education?

BB: Well certainly I think the question that was put to my friend John was about cannabis in the workplace. And I think there is a responsibility on all employers to make sure that their people, particularly people that are in safety sensitive positions that they're fit to do the jobs that they're tasked with doing. We have been working very hard. Every household in Canada just this past week has received an information postcard that we've sent out just to explain some of the new changes in the law. And there's a lot of new resources available to Canadians to become informed about these regulations. One of the issues that does concern me, although possession of cannabis in Canada will be legal, taking it across the border to the United States is a serious federal crime. And so I want to remind all Canadians, don't inadvertently do that and put yourself in terrible legal jeopardy. You cannot take cannabis in any amount across the border.

AMT: I think a lot of Canadians understand that. I think what's worrying right now is that we know that US customs officials can ask about marijuana consumption, if they suspect that you are someone who consumes it legally in Canada they have said they can stop you from crossing. They can forbid you to cross the border. Are you working with the Department of Foreign Affairs on this?

BB: We've been working closely with the American officials and I think they've been very clear. They have every right to maintain the security and uphold their laws at their border, but at the same time, four and a half million Canadians have admitted that they have used this drug. Hundreds of thousands of Canadians cross that border every single day without incident or impediment. And so you know the Americans have made it very clear that you know it's business as usual, they're not changing their line of questioning. I know there are Canadians concerned that if they were you know legally involved in this industry or invested in this industry, that might affect their ability to enter the United States and the American Custom Border Patrol agency has made it very clear that that is not the case.

AMT: What about those, I was going to say young people, but not necessarily young people. What about those people who have some pictures on their phone of them sharing a joint or whatever, legally in Canada now and they look at that and they end up in secondary inspection and they look at that, like are you worried, what are you doing about that kind of wall.

BB: I think any Canadian presenting themself at the border and seeking to enter into the United States or any foreign country, should be mindful about presenting themselves appropriately. And frankly if you go up there smelling of marijuana or looking like you know you may be in possession of it, they're going to check.

AMT: You said if you're looking like Cheech and Chong.

BB: Yeah and you have to be careful here trying to be too funny here, but that's a pretty iconic image of you know that most Canadians are familiar with. You know the idea of rolling up in the car and the smoke billowing out the windows. That's definitely getting you into secondary. So just be smart about going to the border.

AMT: But do Canadians need better advice on that? Again you know you have a lot of people who might be using legally who want to go you know like wanna go.

BB: A couple of things. The flyer that we sent out earlier this week has that information out to every household in Canada. I think it's important that people know we're making every effort to do it. And you know conversely, Americans coming into into Canada there's large signs on their sides reminding that they can't bring their handguns into Canada. And so it's not something we're unfamiliar with and it's I have every confidence in the border security officials, we worked really carefully with them. We've spoken to U.S. law enforcement. I anticipate that if our people present themselves in an appropriate way at the border that it should not be a significant problem for them.

AMT: You have especially emphasized the hope that legalization will take the pot market away from organized crime. Do you have any concerns that by pushing criminals out of the cannabis business they will double down on the traffic of harder drugs?

BB: I know a little bit about organized crime. I've been working on that for about 40 years. I will tell you cannabis, the sale of cannabis is the easiest money that organized crime makes. It's enterprise, they don't share their sales data with u,s but it's, go figure. But it's estimated that about $60 billion a year in illicit profit goes to organized crime. You know they don't do anything positive in communities with that. There's also a significant amount in some urban centres, violence associated to that street drug trade. So in my experience, you know cannabis doesn't kill, but cannabis trafficking can. And so by eliminating that illicit business, by moving it into a regulated environment, a couple of things, very positive social benefits can accrue. And one of them is we're creating a new industry that'll actually follow some rules. But where there's oversight and testing and accountability.

AMT: But where do all those crime bosses go because there is organized crime? I know that there are illegal mom and pop industries and all of that, but there is really serious organized crime. Where do all those guys who are bringing it up and in and and having the fights that you talk about, where do they go?

BB: Some of them will look for other criminal opportunities, but the easiest money they ever made is about to come to an end on them.

AMT: How are they going to take that?

BB: Well they weren't that happy when we took illegal gambling off them either. When we regulated gambling and created lotteries and casinos, which is a regulated gambling environment, that had primarily been an organized crime activity. We took it from them. And frankly their biggest, there are about we estimate about six to eight hundred organized crime groups operating in Canada. 80 percent of them get most of their money from drugs and most of the drug money they get is from marijuana. By taking that opportunity away from criminal enterprise and turning it rather into a controlled regulated industry, I think we can grade a great deal of social benefits, safer communities.

AMT: There was a C.D. Howe Institute report last week that warned that a short legal supply and enduring black market will cut into tax revenue projections and that goes right back to the organized crime. You still have places like Ontario, if you can only get an online, if you can't get it easily, aren't you still going to have organized crime providing it?

BB: Of course it's going to take some time to displace that illicit market. Now someone said to me not too long ago, you'd be lucky to just take half of this business away from them in the first year. This is an $8 billion criminal enterprise. I've been fighting organized crime my whole life and if somebody told me I had the opportunity to take $4 billion away from organized crime, I consider that a darn good day's work. And so we're going to put the thing in the system in place that will make this possible. And it's a process, not an event. It's not gonna happen on the first day, but we've created the regulatory framework to allow a safer, healthier, more socially responsible way of dealing with this substance in our society that has the potential to reach significant social benefits and reduce harm. That's really for me what this is really all about.

AMT: I want to ask you about amnesty. There has been a lot of talk about what happens to people with past cannabis convictions. We spoke to Annamaria Enenajor, a criminal defense lawyer at the Toronto based firm of Ruby Schiller & Enenajor, and her initiative is called Campaign for Cannabis Amnesty. Listen to her.

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VOICE: We're asking the government to expunge the criminal records of all individuals who have convictions for simple possession of cannabis. It's important because of the sheer number of people who will continue to have convictions on their records following October the 17th, approximately 500,000 of those. Historically, racialized Canadians and Canadians of indigenous background have been disproportionately targeted by police for arrests. They have been disproportionately prosecuted for these offences and they receive harsher sentences.

AMT: Bill Blair, can you do tha?

BB: We've made a commitment right upfront. First of all, one of the things that really motivated me in bringing forward these regulations, was the opportunity to stop criminalizing kids for the simple possession of marijuana. And like I come from a very diverse city and I know the disparate impact that it has had on poor communities, racialized communities. And so first of all, until we repeal to replace the law, which happened today, you can't nullify the law. The right way to a change law is to repeal it. And our attention was to repeal the criminal prohibition and replace it with regulation. That creates an opportunity for us to deal with those records in an appropriate way and that's our intent.

AMT: It is your intent.

BB: Yes ma'am.

AMT: And what's the timeline on that, can you tell us?

BB: Well you know there we've been working hard on it as recognizing that that was an important issue to be addressed. But it is a priority and the Prime Minister has made it very clear that we will deal with those records. Now that it is the appropriate time. We will deal with them in the appropriate way.

AMT: Will you consume marijuana now that it's legal?

BB: No ma'am, I never have and I frankly have no intention of doing that. But for Canadian adults who choose to do that, I want them to be able to do it safely.

AMT: Bill Blair, thank you.

BB: Yes, ma'am.

AMT: Bill Blair is Canada's Minister of Border Security and Organized Crime Reduction.

BB: Thank you.

[Applause]

AMT: The CBC News is next and then we are going back into the weeds with an expert panel to guide us through the complicated reality of cannabis legalization. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. You are listening to The Current, coming to you from the Canadian Museum of Nature in Ottawa.

[Applause]

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AMT: And further to Bill Blair's comment about the appropriate time to deal with marijuana pardons, the Federal Government has announced plans to introduce legislation allowing Canadians with criminal records for simple possession to apply for a pardon without any delay or feed. That announcement came today.

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AMT: In our next half hour, we will be taking cannabis questions from the audience. But before we get there, we have assembled a panel to help guide us through the legal, moral and practical jungle of legalized weed. And first there is a patchwork of cannabis legislation across the country. To help you figure out where you stand, The Current's producer Geoff Turner has put together some provincial pot facts. Here's one now.

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GEOFF TURNER: Anna Maria, British Columbia has set the legal age of cannabis consumption at 19 and the provinces settled on a hybrid model of public and private sales of weed, just like it handles liquor sales. But don't get them mixed up, Anna Maria. The rules forbid the sale of weed in stores that sell liquor or tobacco. Feel free to burn that reefer in public, but only in places where tobacco smoking and vaping are already permitted. And folks, if you have daydreams about hot boxing in the parking lot at Kitsilano beach, well you need to wake up to reality. Consuming cannabis in vehicles is forbidden and don't spark up anywhere frequented by children. That means beaches, parks and playgrounds. Back to you Anna Maria.

AMT: Well thank you, Geoff Turner. So now that Minister Blair has given us the official version of legalization, it is time to turn it over to our panel of cannabis pundits. Manisha Krishnan is a senior writer for Vice, who covers the marijuana beat. Eugene Oscapella is a lawyer specializing in drug policy and a professor of criminology at the University of Ottawa. And Hilary Black is the founder of the BC Compassion Club Society, the oldest medical pot group in Canada. She is now the director of patient education and advocacy at Canopy Growth. Hi everyone, welcome.

[Applause]

AMT: Eugene Oscapella, I'm going to start with you. What are your thoughts on what we just heard from Minister Blair?

EUGENE OSCAPELLA: Well I mean we've gone, we're partway there. I mean you could call this, there's still a bit of reefer madness in the legislation. If you're an adult and if you're a parent and you want to share some alcohol with your child at home, you know an adolescent child at home, you can do that without committing any criminal offense. Under if you do that with cannabis the maximum penalty is 14 years for sharing. If you as an adult who's learned to use cannabis, want to teach your child how to use it responsibly, we've got a 14 year penalty for that. And there's still a lot of very significant penalties, criminal penalties, outside the you know the small area that we've carved out for legal possession and production and sale of cannabis. So we haven't moved away from that prohibitionist mindset entirely and perhaps this is just the start. Perhaps over time we'll lose some of those strictures. Right now there's still a lot of criminal law involvement in this and it really, we really don't need that. That's not productive. Prohibition hasn't worked, it's been a colossal failure and preserving so many aspects of it isn't really that helpful.

AMT: Manisha Krishnan, you have kept a close eye on how legislation is actually shaping up province by province, city by city. How does your reporting match with what we just heard from Minister Blair?

MANISHA KRISHNAN: You know I found I was a little bit skeptical of several things that he said. You know one of the things that I found interesting was sort of this hysteria over impaired driving and these sweeping new powers that the federal government have given to police, which include you know a lot looser laws, a lot looser requirements for demanding blood samples. It's possible that police officers could even draw blood under this new legislation and the federal government you know has basically admitted that these per se limits, which is the level of THC that's in your blood, do not actually match up with impairment. So one is not necessarily equal to the other. So I think that you know Mr. Blair said that driving impaired has always been illegal and that remains the case, so I'm not sure why we needed all of this sweeping new legislation and I think we're going to run into a lot of issues with something like the oral saliva test, which is already based on sort of dubious evidence. It's not based on sound science. So I think things like that are going to be challenged. The other thing that I would say on the issue of amnesty is that the pardoning system in Canada, the way that works is you have to wait five to 10 years after your sentence is completed to apply for a pardon. And even then, it just shows up as your crime is forgiven. So you could still have issues crossing the border. So they've really made no commitment to actually wipe the records of Canadians with these unfair convictions. Those are just two issues that I sort of have major concerns with.

AMT: Do you have any sense of which provinces and cities are in the best shape for transition?

MB: Alberta. Well I mean Alberta because they're going fully private and which is so in line with sort of the Albertan philosophy, but they also just have they're sort of the farthest along. They've got 17 shops that are going to actually be open legalization day. BC and Ontario by far have the largest grey market. So the most storefront dispensaries and Ontario is going to have no brick and mortar stores and BC is going to have one in Kamloops. So there's a huge demand and literally nothing to serve it.

AMT: Hilary Black, as someone who's been involved in cannabis activism since you were a teenager, I'm wondering what it feels like to be entering an age of legal recreational weed.

HILARY BLACK: Well I had to try really hard not to cry in two interviews today because I find myself pretty emotional about this. And on one hand I really agree with what Eugene is saying. He calls it reefer madness 2.0. I call it legalization 1.0. So there's a lot of work left to be done. This is not perfect legislation. The brilliant bureaucrats and the task force that worked on creating this legislation, they had to thread a needle and find legislation that cannabis experts and advocates and patients could live with, but also that we could convince prohibitionists in power that this is the right thing to do. The work is not over. This is the first step. I think of it as like a soft opening of a restaurant where you know like there's lots of ordering of the food left to be done, but I think we need to remember that the war on cannabis has been a war on people and a war on families and it really has been a war. I have had a gun held to my head for being at a cannabis grow facility and I'm a privileged white girl. It's you know the harms of prohibition are far more dramatic than the risks that we need to manage around cannabis use. So this is a tremendous success and I'm really proud of my country.

AMT: You have spent the bulk of your time as an activist working toward the legalization of medical marijuana. Why do Canadians need recreational marijuana?

HB: The prohibition of cannabis whether it's for medical or recreational purposes, is a social justice issue and a human rights issue. This is not about the right to get high. This is about the fact that in Canada and in America and around the world, we are jailing otherwise peaceful people. We are tearing apart families, we are ruining careers. If you're poor and black and live in America, you're likely to have your children put into the system and the like I said the harms of prohibition are far greater than the risks around cannabis and the prohibition of cannabis really is based on lies and racism. And the country is not ready to admit we've been really wrong. We're really sorry we did this, but this is a first step and it's a really important first step and a strong positive message that we're sending around the world today.

AMT: Manisha what problems do you see from the uneven availability?

MB: I think that you know what I just said about Ontario and BC having these massive gray markets, you know with there not being many brick and mortar stores, that means that there's simply not going to be enough supply. And so that means that you know people are probably going to continue to use these illicit sources, their black market dealers. I think the other issue is really, it's going to come down to accessibility, slash availability and price. And so you know the government is placing this syntax on cannabis and in addition to that, you'll have to pay GST. The average gram for black market weed is around $8. So you're going to be paying more than that. So if you've been using a black market dealer for 10, 20 years, who gives you a great deal, I don't really know why you would be inclined to switch over unless it's competitive with that.

AMT: Eugene, how concerned are you about the fairness around who winds up getting to profit from all of this?

EO: Well when you look at people like Hilary, who fought in the trenches for years on this issue and put themselves at legal risk because of the illegality of some of the activities that they worked around, it bothers me somewhat to see people who in many cases politicians, who formerly were involved in prosecuting people or policing people who for drug offenses now getting involved in the business themselves. Whereas many of the people who stuck their necks out in the early yearsm were actually are being cast aside right now because they've got criminal records. So that bothers me from sort of a moral ethical standpoint. I'm more worried about the impact of hyper commercializing the industry right now because that inevitably as the power of the industry grows, it will try to subvert some of the public health objectives of legalization and regulation in favour of trying to sell as much cannabis as they can. And that should not be the objective.

AMT: Hilary, do you want to speak to that? Because Canopy, how big is Canopy?

HB: It's hard to measure. I mean we are the largest cannabis company in the world right now. So we have a massive market cap. We have a huge footprint in terms of cultivation space. Yeah I'd be happy to speak to it. I mean I face a lot of criticism being somebody who comes from the civilly disobedient grassroots community, who's now has a position of power inside the largest cannabis company in the world. And for me, I feel personally like I have a responsibility to be there and I'm very respected and I have influence. We have another sort of side arm company called Canopy Rivers that's committed to investing in smaller companies in people like little maybe Mom and Pop businesses and helping to transition them into the regulated market. There are huge amounts of people from my cannabis community on the west coast who are not currently able to operate in the regulated market. So I can really understand what it is that Eugene is saying and we also have this powerful economic engine right now that is fueling important clinical research, really important social responsibility initiatives and I believe that it is the economic drivers that are going to make other countries around the world repeal and evolve their cannabis legislation. They're not going to do it because it's the right thing to do.

AMT: Manisha, you talked to people who are the smaller operators. We heard Shawn MacAleese earlier. How are they feeling about that? Are They worried about that imbalance?

MB: Yeah I mean I think that you know in Ontario, the Ford government gave a lot of these mom and pop dispensaries a lot of hope because he has not placed a cap on how many retail stores that we can have. And of course the Liberals wanted to do a provincial monopoly and that's not happening anymore. So I think there is absolutely hope and I think that a lot of them are going to shut down for legalization in the hopes of getting a license. But I think that there is also some uncertainty in sort of how long that process could take and in the meantime some of those who are particularly committed to serving medical patients, feel like they're sort of not going to be able to give patients and their customers that access. So some of them are sort of considering maybe going more underground or other options like that.

AMT: I want to ask a little bit about the overlap of again, Hilary I'm looking at your journey. How old were you when you started actively working on this?

HB: I was 19 when I first started distributing cannabis to patients illegally.

AMT: What were your 19 year old self think of what's happening today?

HB: My 19-year-old self would say, you should take a couple of days off and party and celebrate and take a couple of days to sleep in and maybe take some time to actually consume some cannabis and then get back to work.

AMT: Eugene Oscapella, you heard the Minister's hopes of cutting gangs out of the pot business. How far will legalization go toward ending the role of organized crime in marijuana sales?

EO: If you have a product that's reasonably price of the quality that people want and available, over time the criminal organization that may be involved in the trade will no longer be there. I mean my students they go to the liquor store, they don't get liquor on the illegal market. It's much easier to go to a place where you've got a reasonably priced product of known quality than to go to a criminal organization. But initially I think it's not going to happen right away, this is going to be a process. I think over time we're going to see a gradual shift away from people relying on their dealers to going to a sort of a legal model. But as I say, it has to be reasonably priced, the product that people want and available when people want it.

AMT: You believe that we should actually be legalizing all illicit drugs, do you not?

EO: Well yes and just to clarify that, we don't treat all drugs the same. We need to look, I mean the big issue in this country is not cannabis. It's the 4000 people who are dying, who are going to die this year from drug overdoses, mostly related to fentanyl and other opiates. So we need to look at a model such as that in Portugal where Portugal decriminalized all drugs up to a 10 day supply 17 years ago and they now have the lowest rate of drug overdose deaths in Europe. So cannabis in some ways like I'd like to push cannabis aside, we've worked on this issue for a long time. There are going to be some bumps in the road, but we really need to look at some of these more problematic drugs where people are losing their lives.

AMT: Do you see this as a continuum?

EO: Yes.

AMT: And is that, has that been the problem? Is that why we're seeing such a patchwork? Is that the fear from those regulators who don't want the continuum?

EO: I think people, well because cannabis is really the backbone of prohibition in this country. I mean most drug offenses in this country are related to cannabis. That's still the case in the most recent drugs statistics. Once you show that you can actually have a regulatory model that is far more beneficial to society than a prohibitionist model, it opens the door for rethinking the approach to other drugs as well. Which is not to say that you're going to sell heroin the same way that you sell cannabis, but medically supervised access to heroin prevent people from dying from overdoses from a poisoned drug supply, which is what's happening right now. That's one of the ways we need to go.

AMT: Some of the rationale for legalization is to reduce the cost of policing prohibition. Given the extent of regulation and the restrictions that still exist, is that realistic?

EO: Well I mean the the cannabis legislation, the Cannabis Act is 40000 words long and each province has legislation. Each municipality is going to have regulations on it. The police are going to be involved in enforcing some of that. But I think we're going to look at some criminal justice system savings because every person we keep out of the federal penitentiary, every male we keep out of the federal penitentiary, we're saving probably $115,000 a year. Every female we're keeping out of the federal penitentiary system, we're saving a couple hundred thousand dollars a year. Now there are huge savings that we can achieve by moving away from reliance on the criminal justice system. There will be some costs, but it as, I think as Hilary said, this is about human rights and a social issue. We have chosen, the use of the criminal law is probably the worst of all possible ways of managing drugs in our society and not just cannabis, but all drugs. It is not, it's an instrument that isn't equipped to deal with the health and social issues around drugs.

AMT: Manisha?

MB: Yeah I mean I think that you know the government has committed tens of millions of dollars towards policing at least at first. And there are several new and very harsh penalties under the Cannabis Act, such as 14 years of jail for selling illicit cannabis. So that could mean, if you're a dispensary owner selling weed after today, you could face 14 years of prison time. Selling cannabis to a minor, even if you're like 19 or 20 and you do that or even if you gave it to a minor, you could be facing 14 years of prison time. There's all sorts of new rules like that and then again Bill-C46, which is all the new driving offences, so I think this is going to be you know a massive policing effort. And I think that frankly police forces are going to use it to justify getting bigger budgets because that's what they tend to do.

AMT: And so how do you see this playing out, even over the next months, Manisha? Like how do you see people reacting to it, given again this patchwork quilt of regulations?

MB: I actually think it's going to be a little bit underwhelming. I think you know legalization day today people are going to be getting high and partying the same way that they do on 420, a lot of them will be consuming illegal cannabis because they won't be able to access legal weed. But other than that you know I don't think there's going to be this sudden influx of people constantly getting high on the streets or what have you because like let's be real, cannabis has been you know around forever. It's very easy to access, a lot of Canadians already use it. So I don't really and that's why we're legalizing it, so I don't really expect this huge boom.

AMT: How do you see the border crossing issue?

MB: Yeah that is I mean the government's advice on that is a bit, you know it's a bit of a mess because I mean like the reality is, if you admit to having consumed cannabis, they can ban you from the States for life. And what Bill Blair didn't say about that clarification that they issued, where they said that people working in the legal industry will be allowed in, is they described cannabis users as drug addicts. As drug addicts and drug abusers and they said drug addicts and drug abusers are not welcome in the United States. So that kind of tells you how they view cannabis consumers. And then on top of that you know they can access like you brought up your phone. If you're purchasing cannabis online with your credit card. There's all sorts of things that they might have access to. So I mean I would be pretty concerned, but it's like what is the advice? Do you lie? Maybe.

AMT: Hilary, what concerns do you have about the US border?

HB: I hope the next time that I cross the border that they don't google me or I'll never be allowed in the country again. You know like I have openly admitted to breaking the law around distributing cannabis for 22 years, so they would have lots of grounds to not let me in and I also don't want to lie. I think one of the best pieces of advice that I've received from a lawyer is don't try to enter the states where the point of entry is in America because if the conversation goes sideways, they could detain you for quite a long time. So don't try to drive across the border and don't take a flight like some of the flights from Toronto that you can take, where you actually go through the border crossing in America.

AMT: Eugene, what do you think?

EO: Exactly, because I would not go into the United States over a land crossing because you're already in the United States when you get to customs. If you go through the airport in Ottawa and they don't want to allow you in or they want to detain you, you have to be extradited from the country. So it's a long process. Whereas if you're already in the States, but you go over the land crossing, you're in real trouble right away. So you know again.

AMT: That's not a great option for a lot of travelers.

EO: Not a great option, but a realistic one. You know because I've been involved in policy for all these years, drug policy and made a few enemies along the way. I don't go into the United States unless I can enter through go through US customs and immigration in Canada, while I'm still on Canadian soil. And the other problem is that there's an offense in the United States of lying to a federal official. So you know if you don't tell the truth and then they Google you and find out that you've just been bragging on Facebook about that great pot party you attended on the weekend, you might be in real trouble for lying to a federal official.

AMT: OK well that sparks me to want to ask each of you just before we move on then. As we mark this day of legalization, the thing that is top of mind for you moving forward? Who wants to start? Hilary.

HB: We need to remove the unjust taxes on patients who were charging GST for something that's authorized by a physician. We don't do that for any other prescription medicines and on top of that we have the excise tax, which is basically a syntax and there's you tax GST. Critically and chronically ill patients are struggling to afford the amount of medicine that they need. They're still choosing between groceries and other life necessities and we need cost coverage. We got to get the insurance companies online so that as we're moving into legalization, we have to keep the needs of critically and chronically ill patients who in many ways got us here, top of mind.

AMT: Eugene?

EO: Let's look at the work we're doing on cannabis as an example of what we might be able to do in other ways with other drugs because we really need to rethink our entire approach to all drugs.

AMT: Manisha, you get the last word.

MB: I just think as a public health strategy, we need to start looking at the benefits of cannabis and seriously studying those because there's a huge dearth of evidence and when we talk about it, we always talk about the risks, but not the benefits.

AMT: OK and we'll pick up on that in our next half hour. But first it's time for another provincial pot fact with The Current's producer, Geoff Turner.

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GEOFF TURNER: Thanks to recent elections, you might be finding it hard to keep up with cannabis regulations in your province. Until just a couple of weeks ago, it looked like Quebec would have the most liberal cannabis rules and the lowest age for legal consumption at just 18. But here's a birthday buzzkill for would-be stoners who just hit that milestone. The new CAQ government says Quebec will have the highest legal consumption age, 21. Why Anna Maria, it used to be that Ottawa teens would cross over to Hull for boozy fun. We might be looking at a historic reversal on that front. Back to you Anna Maria.

AMT: Thank you, Geoff Turner.

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AMT: Remember you can tweet us, we are @TheCurrentCBC. Use the hashtag, #IntoTheWeeds. Find us on Facebook. Go to our website, cbc.ca/thecurrent. And stay with us because coming up in about two minutes, in this new era of legalization how do we talk about marijuana? We'll speak to a public health communicator and we will hear questions and concerns from our audience. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. You are listening to a special edition of The Current, Into the Weeds, from the Canadian Museum of Nature.

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How do you talk to your kids about cannabis? First, know the facts

Guests: Manisha Krishnan, Eugene Oscapella, Hilary Black, Vera Etches

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to a special edition of The Current, Into the Weeds.

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AMT: We are in front of a live audience, of course they're a live audience, at the Canadian Museum of Nature in Ottawa. Many Canadians share the concerns we've been hearing about the damage that has been done by the prohibition of pot and concerns about whether legalization as it stands, as of today, goes far enough to resolve them. But many other Canadians also have concerns about legalization itself, particularly when it comes to young people. We had one Montreal mother give us her thoughts on this.

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VOICE: I'm Fariha Naqvi-Mohamed. I'm a journalist and the mother of two preteen kids. A lot of parents, including me, are more than a little concerned about marijuana legalization. I worry about the impact it will have on my children and society in general. It's already difficult to avoid pot smoke on the streets of downtown Montreal. What happens when it's legal? I can already imagine it seeping in from a neighbor's house. It will suddenly become more socially acceptable. To say that you're stepping out for a joint as you might say you're stepping out for a drink or smoke. That will send a pretty clear message to young people. Sure recreational cannabis will still be against the law for those below the legal age, but we all know young people will still be able to get it if they want to. And if anything, there'll be more cannabis generally available. In my conversation with my kids, I will stress that consuming cannabis is against our beliefs and personal values, but also, that even though it will be legal, legalization does not make it a safe or good idea.

AMT: Well safe to say Fariha is not alone in her anxiety about cannabis and children. For many Canadians that concern is rooted in questions about how to communicate about drugs. Ottawa Public Health has been running information sessions for parents about how to talk to kids about cannabis. Dr. Vera Etches is the medical officer of house with Ottawa Public Health. She joins us on stage. Welcome.

VERA ETCHES: Thank you.

AMT: How should parents talk to their kids about this?

VE: Well it might be helpful for parents to know that we've heard from young people that young people want factual information. They want it presented in a neutral way and that parents are a really important source of information. So the way we're encouraging parents to start to think about it, is to reflect on their own use, whether it's alcohol or cannabis, you know what are you using? How are you using it? How often? Why are you using it? Because your role model is also telling your children a lot and then thinking about what information do you still need. Do you have all the facts? Do you know about marijuana or cannabis and what what the health effects are? We find when we survey the population there are lot of myths out there. It's come up in the show already today. The issues around driving and use of cannabis, but there are you know significant portions of the population that think you can consume cannabis and it won't affect your driving. There are myths about whether or not you can become addicted. And so I think that's important to gather the facts first about the impact on health. We know that for the occasional user, there's not likely for most people, to be long term effects, but there are downsides for youth that start to use, especially younger ages and using frequently. You can see impacts on brain development, on memory, on concentration, intelligence. So these are important facts you need to know. It's an ongoing conversation. We encourage people to start early. We know that by the time you hit high school, cannabis use has started it for some people, so earlier is better.

AMT: What do they need to know, health-wise?

VE: They need to know the basics around the harms from smoking, just like smoking tobacco it can impact your lungs, if you use regularly over time. And so some tips on how to use more safely. So things like using vaping, instead of smoking, is a harm reduction measure. There are important things to know about consuming edibles. That's not legal yet and we know that it still happens and so helping people understand when you're taking something edible that the effect comes on later. And so to wait, to give yourself time to feel the effect, so that you don't take too much and suffer more negative experiences.

AMT: You're often and we are often talking about young people who are having questions about drugs, so what about older people who might start using drugs, using marijuana now and really have not because it was not legal. Are you getting those questions?

VE: For sure. And the same principles apply. If you have not used cannabis before, the best way to avoid negative health impact is not to use. If you're going to use, there are safer ways to use. So I mentioned not smoking. Also going slow, so starting with a low dose, you know one inhalation. See what happens. That a safer way to start.

AMT: Lets open it up to our audience. OK. Well we've got someone over. Well, Kristin you're right there by that person. So we'll start there.

VOICE 1: Well cannabis, as well as tobacco smoke, is full of particulates and when people are smoking in multi-unit dwellings, people are suffering from the influx of these particulates into their apartments and they can't get away from it. So it's totally unfair for people that are trying to maintain their health to be exposed to these particulates.

AMT: Eugene, do you want to?

EO: Well in a situation like this, you're really looking at apartment building bans on smoking, whether it be cannabis or a condominium ban on smoking and there are apartment buildings and condominiums and municipal bylaws that are looking at doing these sorts of things. So that's a regulatory measure that can be made to deal with some of the sensitivities that some people have. I'm the president of a condominium corporation in an old building and we know that pot smoke goes right through the building. So it's going to, some people are going to be affected by it. So one of the things we're looking is banning all forms of smoking in the building. So that would be one possible solution.

AMT: Manisha, have you come across some of these concerns?

MB: Yeah definitely. And I would say that it's, I think there's a certain irony when the province for example Ontario has not made any exemptions for cannabis lounges or public spaces where people can actually go and consume safely in a place that's not their home. In some cases, provinces are actually limiting Canadians to only be able to smoke in their own homes. So that's I think that's kind of backwards and I think that the government needs to start looking at opening up spaces where adults can go and actually use this product that they're legalizing.

AMT: Vera Etches, is that something that the board of health is looking at here?

VE: Yes, we're also emphasizing that second hand marijuana smoke can have negative impacts on health. So that is why we're suggesting moving away from smoking, using lower risks method. And it's something we're hearing is a concern from people in apartment buildings. So we know for instance, using inside where children are present is something that should be avoided.

AMT: Is that any different from cigarette smoke or cigar smoke then?

VE: Similar.

AMT: Similar. OK. Geoff go ahead?

VOICE 2: Thank you very much for all of the participants. It's very interesting to have all of this information exchanged. I appreciate that Mr. Bill Blair spoke to us to sort of calm us down about the cross border and I think the impression I have is that as long as you sort of have a clean look and feel and you're not trying to bring anything across, then you're probably all right. But what I'd like to have addressed a little bit more is on the investment side. I rely on my bank representatives to guide me through investment. I don't know a whole lot about investment, but I found myself in a cash position, a very small cash position under $1500 and I threw it into canopy growth. So I want to, yes. So I want to know whether or not I'm at risk or what is there a level of investment where they care?

EO: All I know is that there have been discussions about people who have investments in cannabis and my understanding and this is all I get from the media, so I don't know how entirely complete the information is, is that if you're going to the United States for a vacation that's one thing. If you're going there to conduct cannabis business that's another. So, but maybe, Hilary may, do you have anything on that?

HB: You know what, this issue is so tricky and so much of it has been hyped up in the press. So a lot of what I know is what I'm reading in the press, rather than what I've heard is actual statements from officials in the States. One of the things that I know, there was some concern about is if you're a Canadian and you have invested in American companies, they're doing cannabus business that's not legal in America, that could be problematic. But I haven't heard of anything of people who have invested in cannabis companies in Canada having any problems when you're crossing the border.

AMT: We go back to this question about the look that you have, if you look a certain way. I mean what are the, are there ongoing concerns about this when it comes to the border?Manisha?

MB: Yeah, I mean I think that you know Bill Blair's comment a few weeks ago, the Cheech and Chong comment, kind of blew up in his face a little bit because there is a certain amount of you know even in that statement, don't look like Cheech and Chong, who are both not white men. There is a little bit of that Reefer Madness feel to statements like that and we know that police forces, generally overpolice black and indigenous Canadians for crimes like pot possession and we know that you know it would most likely be the same thing when you're crossing the border. I mean I'm a brown girl, I've crossed the border and I have you know lots of friends and family members who are people of colour and we've been stopped for no reason at all. Probably more so than some of our white counterparts. So I think it's reasonable to expect people of colour to you know maybe have that look and feel that's a little bit more sketchy.

AMT: Eugene?

EO: I'm sure profiling is done at borders. I mean there's a long history in the United States because there's lots of literature on that on how you know the law enforcement agencies would profile people and target them on the basis of an assumed profiles. And there's always a risk of that.

AMT: Kristin, you have someone. Go ahead, sir.

VOICE 3: Hi there. Thanks for taking my question. Going to change veins a little bit. I haven't heard a lot of talk about the sustainability of growing lots of marijuana indoors for recreational use and as an organic farmer, I'm just wondering maybe Hilary can answer this. Is it really sustainable? I've heard in California they use as much hydro in indoor growth, as the rest of the state total and I just, it doesn't seem sustainable or smart to me to grow all this weed just for people to get high and I mean I smoke. You know and we're like damaging the environment when weed is meant to be grown under the sun sustainably organically and it's the best weed. And so I just wonder is there any concern about that because it's profit driven, these big huge companies that are coming onto the market and so all they care about is making more money and they're just going to. Like I heard Tweed's already maxed out on the energy they can use so just wondering if you could speak to that.

HB: So yeah this is an ongoing concern. I mean one of the things that we're doing at Canopy is we're starting to use a lot more greenhouses, rather than all indoor growth. So we're using the sunlight more than just using power. I mean one of the problems that's happened in California with all of the outdoor production is actually contamination of the waterways. We have like Canopy Rivers, our little investment fund, has invested in a couple of smaller pure organic growers. One of the problems, I hear you shaking your head at me, but I'm going to try and get my sentence out, I hear you shaking your head at me.

AMT: No. Let her answer.

HB: No, no. So what I'm trying to tell you is that the regulations around production are so strict around the micro bylevels is that some of the organic farmers that are trying to come into the regulated market are having a hard time getting the micro bylevels of their production low enough that their product is accepted in the legal market. And that's one of the things that we have to work on. It's totally not perfect at the moment. I agree with you that producing all of the cannabis for recreational purposes,, all indoors all with electricity, is not a good situation. So in BC there's these huge greenhouses that we've taken over that were pepper farms, they're now cannabis farms and we actually use like 75 percent less water and there's a whole bunch of environmental improvements. So I'm not saying that the production is perfect. I think that environmental regulations and sustainability is one of the things that we need to look at. It needs to be improved and it needs to evolve, but there is consciousness inside the industry about making better choices.

AMT: OK. We're going to move over to here.

VOICE 4: First of all, thank you CBC and Ms. Tremonti for bringing us together. I must confess, I'm going to say it right from the outset. Perhaps you can tell from my, I guess my age, that I'm a little more conservative than some of the thoughts that I've heard today and let me get to the point. I guess I'm concerned having worked in law athe nd department of justice and environmental law and economic law and international trade law, we never developed federal law, major acts, statutes, without the impending corroboree of regulations. My point is that this is too fast. The regulations should have been out and trotted out a long time ago because they really are what safeguards consumers. That should have been done. The thresholds, the impact assessments of regulations, the cost benefit, the science, the evidentary facts with regard to what the effects are on health, impairment, how to detect it. That should have all been done. Mr. Blair In the past has said well we couldn't do the regulations because we had to decriminalize first. That's not true. Good acts with social impacts, the regulations are always done commensurate with the major act, which is first principles. This is too fast, too soon and I think for political reasons is being shoved upon Canadians and I think that's wrong.

AMT: What do you think, Eugene?

EO: We're not going to get it right. First of all, it's not we. The government is not going to get it right right off the bat. We're dealing with multiple jurisdictions. You've got municipalities involved, you've got the provinces, you've got the federal government, you've got all sorts of constitutional issues, jurisdictional issues. To a certain extent they're feeling their way with this, but the overall direction is right and getting rid of this prohibitionist model is the the fundamental right thing that they're doing. There are gonna be some problems around the edges and I don't think anybody should expect that as this legislation rolls out that it's going to be perfect. In a perfect world, we would have been able to do the research, but a lot of the research couldn't be done because that sort of research was prohibited because the product was illegal. And the National Institute on Drug Abuse in the United States they didn't want to fund that sort of research that showed beneficial properties from from cannabis. But we will not get it right the first time. This is something that can evolve, but it's a regulatory model. We can change the regulations over time as we see the need to change, where we see pressure points and where we see things that are going wrong.

AMT: Go ahead.

VOICE 5: I have two friends who in the past had schizophrenic bouts. They've been very well for the past decade, functioning, working, contributing members of society. What advice, they want to try marijuana. What advice would you give to them?

VE: We don't recommend that people who have a family history of schizophrenia or a mental illness that's caused psychosis, we don't recommend that cannabis as an appropriate choice. If you're concerned about protecting your health, you know there's other categories of people. If you're pregnant, if you're breastfeeding, we don't recommend any use and going back to the development of the brain, you know in an ideal world, the brain is continuing to develop until you're 25. So you know that is part of what we recommend you know if you're looking to protect health.

AMT: OK. Go ahead.

VOICE 6: Hello. My name is John. I'm the peace officer for the Marijuana Party. I'm not going to celebrate too much today, but I will celebrate a little bit. My concern is for the lack of scientific evidence and data and peer review study that is being used to determine that five nanograms of THC in your blood is impairment. Ottawa police, Vancouver police and Delta police are not going to use the saliva machines because they know they're not reliable. And that if you look even at the police services themselves, there's discrepancy on when police off duty can use cannabis. In Calgary they said you can't use it at all. In Toronto they said you have to be 28 days cannabis-free before you can drive a car or carry a gun as a police officer. The Canadian Armed Forces said it's 12 hours before you can use a firearm on duty or eight hours to be on duty without. And Ottawa police have said well just use your common sense. So I would like to know if police officers can drive a car and carry a gun after using cannabis for eight hours and they're not going to be tested, where is the facts, the data, the science, the evidence that proves what impairment is?

AMT: Vera Etches, what do we know, what don't we know?

VE: Well this is not my area of expertise. I was not involved in setting any of these limits. I think you're right. There is science that needs to be done. You know we saw one study reported on today about how you see effects of impairment five hours after consuming. But it is different for different people. It's different depending on what product you're using. It's different depending on the strength, on how the method you use it. Right. So the effect lasts longer if you take an edible. So these are all complexities that need to be part of the education of the population in terms of what's likely to lead to longer term impairment or not. But and it needs to be studied. I agree.

AMT: Manisha, you talked about this a little bit in the panel, about the concerns around this.

MK: Yeah there are. You know I think you're absolutely right. There are major concerns around these oral fluid tests and these per se limits in general because they don't necessarily line up with your cognitive impairment and cannabis, THC is stored in your fat cells. So it's not like alcohol, which just kind of like runs through your body. I think that what's actually going to happen is that people are going to be criminalized under these per se limits and then there's going to be some sort of huge legal challenge or a bunch of challenges and I know lawyers are already gearing up for that. And yeah I do think that you know this is sort of the government sort of rushed into this legislation, Bill C-46 when they didn't necessarily need to because driving impaired is already illegal. I think that also the 28 days thing that police forces are implementing is a little, to me this is speculation, but I think that that's a little bit of a clue that the fact that they wouldn't let their own officers consume cannabis and come to work for 28 days kinds of shows you what they might be afraid of in terms of the testing. And of course 28 days is a ridiculous period of time to have to wait.

AMT: OK. We're going over there.

VOICE 7: Hi, my name is Hailey. I worked in one of the illegal dispensaries in Ottawa that was held up at gunpoint and I was the one who called the police while it was happening. So I just wanted to say you know there are those of us in the industry that do want to get into the legal sphere and we always have. My question is for Dr. Vera Etches, I'm sorry if I pronounced your name incorrectly. When we heard Bill Blair kind of keep on repeating the talking point of protecting the children, my main concern is if we know that mental health care funding is where we should be putting money to prevent people from falling into addictive and negative behavioral cycles like that, why are we focusing on criminalizing more people for pot, instead of focusing on mental health care and like maybe mandating some funding for mental health care for young children.

VE: I can't speak to the federal government's approach. You know I'm not sure what all the decisions are going to be making are around how they invest. I agree with you, I think talking about mental health is really important with young people and that should be a focus. Also, I mean young people who use, 17 per cent, if they're using regularly, will end up with an addiction as some of the research is suggest. And so we want to intervene really early. We want to help young people identify if they have a friend who's maybe it's getting into more problematic use and how to get help. So this is also one of the key messages you know for parents, is to think about are you seeing a change in behaviour in your teen. You know are they not interested in you know their friends or school or able to get their usual activities of daily life done. You know there's signs that it may be you know is more problematic and needs to have an intervention. You know your primary care provider is a good first place to go and then across the country, we have you know mental health and addiction services for alcohol, for other drugs and so they're there for people who do run into problems with cannabis.

AMT: OK. Final question over there.

VOICE 8: Hi my name is Mo and I work for Lovi Foundation. It's a not for profit organization and we work for the Canadian youths, especially we sensitive young kids not to take drugs. And my question is do you think the government is not actually providing enough education or providing messages to the young Canadians, what to do and what not to do, so that it could be a safe consumption.

AMT: Manisha, what do you think?

MB: I just think that there needs to be more evidence and more information. I mean even issues like cannabis addiction it's you know highly contentious and there's just not enough consensus on a lot of these issues. So first of all, I think we need better information and then once we have that, we can pass that along.

AMT: So your beat is not over just because it's legalized.

MB: No, I wish it was sometimes.

AMT: Hilary?

HB: When we're talking about youth and cannabis education the best resource that I think exists in the world was created by an organization called Canadian Students for Sensible Drug Policy. Parents write it down. Canadian Students for Sensible Drug Policy. It's called a Sensible Approach to Education. An amazing researcher, Jenna Valleriani did a comprehensive literature review of all of the evidence around cannabis and youth. And then they turned it into an education toolkit for both parents and drug educators to be able to have informed conversations with youth. We're in a new age, we now have to understand what's the difference between THC and CBD, what's the what's the difference between inhalation and ingestion. So that particular tool is I think the most evidence-based, efficient, accessible way for us all to get up to speed and to have really informed conversations with youth, who for the most part are going to make really smart decisions if they have all the information.

AMT: OK. Well we're going to have to leave it there. I know there are more question, but we are out of time on this special edition of The Current. I want to thank everyone who made this event possible. The show was produced by Kristin Nelson, Karin Marley and Geoff Turner. Our technical producer is Serge Brunet. Our recording engineer is Jean-Sebastien Villeneuve. Gary Francis is The Current's technician. Kathleen Goldhar is our executive producer. Tonight she is also the director of our program. Thanks to the staff of the Canadian Museum of Nature and of course, to our terrific colleagues at CBC Ottawa. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thanks for Coming into the Weeds with us on this special edition of The Current. Thank you.

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AMT: And as a postscript to our special town hall on the legalization of marijuana in Canada, the federal government announced today plans to introduce legislation allowing pardons for Canadians convicted of simple possession. Here is the Public Safety Minister, Ralph Goodale.

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VOICE: Now that the laws on cannabis have changed. Individuals who previously acquired criminal records for simple possession of cannabis, should be allowed to shed the burden and the stigma of that record. So today I am announcing that the government of Canada intends to present legislation, which when enacted, will allow these individuals to apply for a pardon, as long as they have completed their sentence, there will be no further waiting period and no fee.

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Oct. 17, 2018 episode transcript

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