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The AIH Transcript for October 12, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden, sitting in for Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight…

CO: Huawei patrol. Two U.S. senators, one from each party, have sent a letter to Prime Minister Trudeau urging him not to let Chinese telecom giant Huawei build new high tech infrastructure in Canada. But will that letter be returned to senators?

CH: Publish and nearly perish. 25 years after he was shot, the Norwegian publisher of The Satanic Verses welcomes the news that someone has finally been charged in his case.

CO: Makeup test. More than cosmetic changes are afoot at the hugely successful Toronto beauty brand Deciem. The founder has been ousted for his wildly erratic behaviour on social media.

CH: Small clams court. A biology grad student finds humans guilty of polluting the water of the Bay of Fundy, after finding micro plastics in hundreds of clams.

CO: Right hand moon. New research suggests that moons could possibly have their own moons and people have a lot of suggestions about the best name or moon-iker for those moon moons — including my personal favourite ‘Moonmoons.’

CH: And…Roo believer. It's been a hundred years since the last humans saw — and shot — a tree kangaroo. So a British tourist was astonished to catch sight of a creature everyone thought was extinct while he was on vacation. As It Happens: The Friday Edition. Radio that reaches a fever pouch.

[Music: Theme]

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Part 1: Huawei senator, Deciem lawsuit, Tree kangaroo

Huawei senator

Guest: Mark Warner

CH: Dear Canada, don't get cozy with Huawei. This week a pair of U.S. senators wrote to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau warning that doing business with the Chinese telecom giant would open up a significant security risk. They want Canada to follow suit with the U.S. and Australia and block Huawei from supplying equipment that would connect Canadians to the lightning fast wireless network known as 5G. That letter to Canada's prime minister was by two senators from two parties — Republican Senator Marco Rubio and Democratic Senator Mark Warner. Senator Warner is the vice chair of the U.S. Senate Select Intelligence Committee. We reached him in Washington DC.

CO: Senator Warner, Huawei is one of the most popular smartphone brands in Canada. It has built much of the world's telecom infrastructure. So why should Canada be wary of doing business with we Huawei?

MARK WARNER: Huawei, because so many of the Chinese enterprises are indirectly controlled by the Chinese Communist Party, by the government — they don't have ultimate loyalty to their shareholders or their board, but at the end of the day have to adhere to the government protocols. But particularly the in the telecom sector — Huawei, ZTE — are starting to spread around the world with low-price products, but oftentimes with the ability for the Chinese government to put in back doors to make a huge number of vulnerabilities that, frankly, poses a national security vulnerability, and I think particularly for the so-called ‘Five Eyes’ countries — Canada, United States, Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom — we'd hope to be on the same page in terms of our policy.

CO: But you mentioned the back doors in your concerns, I mean, we have in our own country our security experts are saying that they have put things in place to prevent those back doors, that we have very, very high cyber security controls, we've heard this from Scott Jones, the new head of the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security, that they have put things in place to make sure that doesn't happen. Why don't you trust our country to protect the security of the system?

MW: This is an evolving threat. It's really been a growing recognition over the last two to three years as Huawei and ZTE equipment have started to penetrate markets all over the world that I think we've all doubled down on our analysis. And my fear is that while there may not be known vulnerabilities when you buy the equipment today, you can send these software updates without having any review by whoever owns the equipment, and those software updates could include vulnerabilities. It's one of the reasons why, frankly, the country that is at the lead in trying to take on this issue is Australia where they recently have said they will not buy any telecom, and particularly 5G level equipment, from any country that has the ability with an extra judicial means to intervene.

CO: And just for people to clarify, 5G is the next generation of wireless infrastructure that's going to give us lightning fast speeds and these are going to be coordinated and harmonized within our countries.

MW: 5G will be the technology that brings about unmanned vehicles in terms of cars, it will be your refrigerator and your microwave are all connected to the Internet. This really will be a complete game changer, and part of the challenge that's going on right now is: Will the Chinese dominate the standards or will there be Western-based equipment that will be the lead?

CO: You know there is lots of evidence that Canada does take these threats seriously. You know the last spring there was a Chinese state-owned company that tried to take over a Canadian company, Eikon, and Canada blocked it on grounds of national security. This summer we had nine Chinese reporters from the state run media from China, they were blocked from entering Canada to cover the Group of Seven Summit. So we take these threats seriously. So what's your evidence that Huawei is where you have to draw the line in the sand?

MW: First of all, I think it's appropriate what Canada has done in terms of certain investments. And the concern level in the United States, for example, on this kind of Chinese talking equipment, three years ago was dramatically different than it is today because you have a Chinese government that's gotten much more aggressive. You've got equipment that is being priced below market so that it can take control of markets. And the last thing you'd want is to wake up three or five years down the line with all this equipment built in to building a 5G, next generation network and then say ‘Oh my gosh, this is all vulnerable.’ And literally the cost and difficulties of yanking it out would be really prohibitive.

CO: You're citing national security concerns if Canada gets into bed with Huawei to this degree. But your U.S. trade negotiators were saying that our steel exports from Canada to the United States was a national security threat. I mean, your president throws this national security threat around quite a bit. So don't you think it's a bit overdone at this point?

MW: Well Carol, as someone who is proud of the fact that my mom's family is all from Ontario, I can assure you that the vast majority of members of Congress, Democrat and Republican alike, think that Mr. Trump was 100 per cent wrong in terms of citing national security issues. That mislabelling and that spat between the Trump administration and the Trudeau government needs to be resolved but it shouldn't take away what is the growing consensus from our top security folks. And I, frankly, would be surprised if there was not a growing sense within the Canadian intelligence community that they too would voice concerns about this Chinese equipment.

CO: Do you think that it's difficult to make these asks to engage Canada like this given how frayed our relationship is at this point?

MW: Well, I think there does need to be repairs in the relationship, but if Canada takes this direction and will spend hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars, buying this equipment that may provide a national security vulnerability that's not good for Canada, that's not good for the U.S. All we're saying is we would hope the Canadian government and the Canadian security officials would take a second look. And my, I guess, my reply would be even with the bruised feelings with America I think those feelings will pass. Don't necessarily just listen to us. You talk to the Australians, talk to the New Zealanders, talk to the folks in the UK, because this is a real-time of evolving threat. And again, just my hope is that the West to get on the same page because having our telecommunications networks penetrable is a real, real threat. I, frankly, think in the 21st century much of the conflict will not be with planes and tanks and guns anymore, but it will be in the realm of cyber intrusions or misinformation, disinformation as we saw with the Russian activity in our elections in 2016.

CO: All right, we hear you. Senator Warner, thank you.

MW: Carol, thank you so much for having me on.

CO: Bye-bye.

MW: Bye.

CO: Democratic Senator Mark Warner is the vice chair of the U.S. Senate Select Intelligence Committee. We reached him in Washington D.C. Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale's office told us today quote “The issues are well understood. The safety and security of Canadians is our paramount concern,” unquote. Huawei Canada did not respond by air time but said this in the past quote “We've been working openly and transparently with the Canadian government since 2008. There has never been an issue,” unquote.

[Music: Upright Bass]

Deciem lawsuit

Guest: Kathleen Hou

CH: Earlier this week Deciem, the globally successful Canadian skincare and cosmetics business lived up to its tagline ‘The abnormal beauty company.’ On Monday the company founder and CEO abruptly closed all its stores following this post he put out on social media.

SOUNDCLIP

BRANDON TRUAXE: Hi everyone. I'm Brandon Truaxe, founder of Deciem. This is the final post of Deciem, which will shut down all operations until further notice. Please take me seriously. Look, almost everyone at Deciem has been involved in a major criminal activity, which includes financial crimes and much others. You have no idea what a soldier I've been. For more than 13 years I've been made fun of as a porn actor and as a drug dealer and everything, for 13 years. It's all ending now.

CH: That was the founder of Deciem Brandon Truaex in a video posted to Instagram. Today, Mr. Truaxe was removed as the boss of his own company, restricted from communicating with employees and — this will not shock you — prohibited from posting on Deciem’s social media after Estée Lauder, a stakeholder in the company, took court action. Kathleen Hou is the beauty director at The Cut, New York Magazine's women's website. We reached her in New York.

CO: Kathleen, when you saw that Instagram video that we just played the sound of, when you saw it over the weekend what was your reaction?

KATHLEEN HOU: Oh my goodness. I was completely shocked, I think as many people were. It was out of the blue. I think the company had been doing so well and that's why it was quite bewildering content.

CO: But, I mean, he sounds a bit unhinged. Did anyone see this coming?

KH: The posts on the Deciem account have been strange for a little bit. I think people started probably to take notice of it about six months ago. Brandon posted his first video talking to the camera directly where he mentioned that he'd be seizing all kind of marketing activities for Deciem. He said that marketing was nothing more than a way to sell product to the consumer. So he said he wanted to talk directly to them, which I think is quite unusual for a brand.

CO: Yeah, but it's also kickstarted the events have led to Brandon Truaxe’s removal from the company he founded, right?

KH: Yes, yes. So today in a Canadian court Estée Lauder sued Brandon and it turned out that the court appointed the former co-CEO who just rejoined, Nicola Kilner, as being the head of Deciem now.

CO: And Estée Lauder being a minority shareholder of Brennan to access company Deciem?

KH: Yes, that's right. I think they own 28 per cent, it sounds like, and they made and minority investment about a year ago, I believe. And while this whole kind of Instagram drama was playing out there were a lot of comments from people asking for Estée Lauder to step in. And they repeatedly issued a statement saying that since they were minority investors they're not going to be involved in the day-to -ay running of the company and they don't have any comment. So it was kind of a surprise, but surprisingly too, because Brandon himself revealed it. He actually posted a leaked e-mail on the Deciem account indicating that Estée Lauder was suing him.

CO: So what is Brandon Truaxe’s relationship to his own company at this point?

KH: It sounds like he is still working that out. The judge ruled that he isn't allowed to post at all anymore on Instagram. So he has no access at all to the accounts. The judge also said that they should — one of the allegations that Brandon made in his Instagram post is that almost everyone at Deciem was quote-unquote involved a major criminal activity relating to the brand. So a judge also ruled that there should be an investigation made into that. But at this time it seems like he is — it’s kind of up in the air.

CO: Well, what else came out in the lawsuit? Because you point out Estée Lauder is a minority shareholder. So what are they suing him for?

KH: I believe they are suing for damage to the brand. They were saying that a lot of the social media content was damaging to the brand and Estée Lauder is a very stable company. There's not a lot of drama, at all, period in the beauty world especially not with Estée Lauder, so I think that people are concerned and I think Estée Lauder wanted to protect their investment as well.

CO: Just a bit about Brandon Truaxe, what you can tell us about him. Because, I mean, this is extraordinary what he did, what he launched from Toronto. People thought it wasn't going to work, the line that he put out, the price point was absurdly low and he's been tremendously successful. Tell us about him?

KH: Yes. So he's quite interesting. Not a lot is known about what he used to do before but he used computer scientists for a while. And it seems like he just kind of came into beauty out of the blue. He’s a career entrepreneur, he wanted to do things differently, which is part of the tagline for Deciem was called ‘the abnormal beauty company.’ He launched 10 different sub-brands out of the gate, which is very ambitious. And one of them particularly, The Ordinary, is the one that I think maybe one of the best loved or most loved brands he had. And it was really known for two things its value and its transparency. As you mentioned, it was able to give you kind of dermatological level products that really worked at places that were, I think, all under 30 dollars. So that was just amazing.

CO: The sales of hit 300 million dollars.

KH: Yeah, it's amazing. It's grown really quickly and they don't do any kind of advertising either.

CO: So Estée Lauder wants him removed as CEO but he says — I just want play a clip from back in February where he talks about he's not even a CEO. Let’s just take a listen to that.

SOUNDCLIP

BRANDON TRUAXE: Hi everyone, I've decided to drop my title. I’m no longer called CEO, I’m called worker at Deciem. That's because I've ever actually been CEO and Deciem actually has never needed a CEO. Responsible people don't need CEOs. You know, I've never liked any of my bosses in my life so I don't want to be a boss. I want to be a friend. I want people to be my friend not my employees.

CO: That’s Brandon Truaxe from back in February. You know it’s a bit like Elon Musk at Tesla, isn’t it? I mean, these kind of mad geniuses who start companies, but part of their M.O., part of the reason why they do so well and the character is these personalities, these erratic, somewhat unhinged people. And so do you think that they're maybe misunderstanding them Brandon Truaxe, this is it's part of a package and his behaviour is actually maybe part of his salesmanship?

KH: Oh, I don't know about that. I think that as a company you want to be able to provide a service to your customers and to your users. I think if your customers are concerned about the viability of the company and whether they're going to get the great products that you made, I think that's a disservice to them. And I know some people have wondered whether this is just kind of like a great marketing ploy for people to stock up on products before they're gone, but that the company was already doing well, like you said, three hundred million dollars in sales — so it's not like they needed the publicity.

CO: All right. Kathleen, thank you for speaking with us.

KH: Thank you so much for having me.

CO: Bye.

CH: That was Kathleen Hou, beauty director at The Cut, New York Magazine's women's website. We reached her in New York.

[Music: Funk]

Tree kangaroo

Guest: Michael Smith

CH: 90 years ago high in the mountains of Indonesia an evolutionary biologist named Ernst Mayr saw a tree kangaroo. It took his breath away — and then he took its breath away, by shooting it. And that was the first and last recorded sighting of the Wondiwoi tree kangaroo — until now. This summer, Michael Smith was on holiday in West Papua, Indonesia when he rediscovered the elusive animal. Mr Smith also shot the Wondiwoi he spotted — but only with a camera. We reached Michael Smith in Farnham, Surrey, England.

CO: Mr. Smith, as you know, there's been no recorded sighting of the Wondiwoi tree kangaroo since 1928. So how does it feel to be the first person in 90 years to report having seen this animal?

MICHAEL SMITH: Very surprising. It's a bit of a responsibility, of course, because unless we do get some kind of conservation plan sorted out, I don't know what will happen. There have been plans to mine in the Wondiwoi mountains and there are continuing demands for stuffed trophy specimens. So I just hope but it's not the last time it’s seen.

CO: How did you discover it? How did you see this tree kangaroo?

MS: I was there the year before looking for a rare sort of rhododendron in the mountains of Papua, New Guinea and Indonesian West Papua. And I was looking for new species of plants. I went to see the Wondiwoi Mountains, only had a few days there. And I just Googled the name of the kangaroo, of course I didn't see it, but I decided I'd better come back for another look, another expedition the next year.

CO: And is it just by chance or did you see it right away? Just tell us the story of how you finally did see this animal?

MS: I had to get a lot of permits and get permission from the local authorities and the traditional landowner. I spent ten days in the mountain forest, very tough going, but I had guides, a translator, a local hunter who eventually spotted the animal for us. And actually, I only saw the tree kangaroo kind of the last hour of the last day before we had to give up and pack up and go back down the mountain.

CO: And so it was the guide, somebody from West Papua, who identified this as possibly the animal you were looking for?

MS: He knew about tree kangaroos but had never seen one before because no one's actually been quite so high in the mountains, I don't think. People hunt for another species of tree kangaroos lower down where the forest is a bit more open. But when you get above about 3,000-4,000 feet, you get these really dense bamboo thickets with nasty spiny creepers and there's not much in the way of water supply. So yeah, it was almost a kind of a legend even to the local hunters.

CO: Now in 1928 when Ernst Mayr saw this animal, what he did in order to do the research is that he shot the creature and took the pelt and sent it back to the Natural History Museum in London to have it evaluated. So I'm presuming you did not do that?

MS: No, things are changed and the rules have toughened up and I'm happy to say. No, I had to take photos, which was almost as difficult as what Mayr would have had to do. Maybe if we can get a proper expedition together sometime next year we can collect some of the tree kangaroo dung and take it away for DNA analysis because we've got the DNA from the original specimen that I've seen in the Natural History Museum in London and that would just confirm what I suppose the experts already tell me is more or less certain, which is that it is the same animal.

CO: What does this tree kangaroo look like?

MS: Oh, it's got a round, fat face with a bit of a short nose, a couple of short fluffy ears, reddish-gold fur, short stubby arms and legs with great big claws to cling onto the trees as it climbs around in the branches — and a tail to kind of hook around the branches as it goes along.

CO: Some have described it as a cross between a bear and a monkey.

MS: It doesn't look much like a monkey but it does look a bit like a bear. Yeah, maybe the sort of bear you see in toyshops.

CO: The Global Wildlife Conservation says this Wondiwoi tree kangaroo is lists it as one of the 25 most wanted lost species. Why is it so elusive? Why is it difficult to see this animal?

MS: I don't know if people have been talking about it for ages. I guess no one actually you know decided to go out there and have a look. It's not easy going through these jungles of Wondiwoi, it's hard work. You get sweat bees is in your eyes and leeches in your boots and you slip around and it rains all the time, so that might have deterred people a little bit, I suppose. It's no walk in the park.

CO: Is this the place where you can see this Wondiwoi tree kangaroo?

MS: It’s a tiny area of isolated mountain forest. It's got a sea on three sides. To the south it’s just lowland, it’s hundreds of miles from the snow mountains which is where the nearest relative of the Wondiwoi tree kangaroo is found, and not many people head out there.

CO: And not many people have seen this creature. But do you have to do something to certify your discovery? Is it for sure what you have seen as this is this most wanted lost species?

MS: Of course, I don't know that much about tree kangaroos so I sent off the photos and descriptions to some of the top experts. Most of the tree kangaroo experts, of course, are from Australia. There's a guy in Sydney who's done the main piece of work on the genetics. He told me it was the most exciting news he'd had in years, but then he's a kangaroo guy, so he gets excited about that.

CO: You're an amateur these kinds of things, you look for all these plants and animals but you’re not a tree kangaroo guy, but you, I guess, are the person who is going to confirm this. So is this something you're going to keep pursuing or do you think that you've done your work for now?

MS: I'm going to keep pursuing it, I suppose. It's sort of my responsibility now. I've accidentally been the first person to meet with this animal for 90 years. I suppose I've just got to try and make sure that the very few tree kangaroos that are left to survive for another 90.

CO: Well done. Thanks, Mr. Smith.

MS: Thank you.

CH: Michael Smith as an amateur botanist. He recently rediscovered the rare Wondiwoi tree kangaroo in West Papua, Indonesia. We reached Mr. Smith in Farnham, Surrey. And there's more on that story, including a photograph of the Wondiwoi tree kangaroo, on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Upbeat Ukulele]

Moonmoons

CH: Can moons have moons? — Is the kind of thing we'll all be asking each other the night pot is legalized. But the person who asked astronomer Juna Kollmeier that question back in 2014 was totally sober and a child — her child. And the thing was she didn't know the answer. Now her new paper, coauthored with fellow astronomer Sean Raymond, addresses that question — literally. It is called ‘Can moons have moons?’ And turns out it's theoretically possible. If the one moon is extremely big and the big moon’s moon is extremely small. Also, the big moons gravity would have to be strong but not too strong. And the big moon would have to be far enough from the planet of which it's a moon to allow space for the small moon to orbit it while the big moon orbits the planet. But all that is apparently within the realm of possibility. The new paper has yet to be peer reviewed but its central question has already raised another question: What do we call the moon of a moon? Sub-moon is one suggestion, which is pretty clear but lacks poetry. Mini-moons sounds more like a candy. And second order moons is just insulting. But it seems like New Scientist magazine has already called it its article on the subject has the headline ‘Moons can have moons and they are called Moonmoons. Moons of moons equal Moonmoons — perfect. Helpfully descriptive, totally accurate, painfully literal and utterly ridiculous. So why not, let's do it. Because it may be stupid but as far as I can tell, there is no dark side of the moonmoon.

Back To Top »

Part 2: Norway Satanic Verses, Clam microplastics

Norway Satanic Verses

Guest: William Nygaard

CH: Yesterday, marked the 25th anniversary of the morning William Nygaard was shot outside his Oslo home. Now, just days before the statute of limitations was due to expire, Norwegian police have laid charges against the individuals they say were responsible for the crime. Mr. Nygaard was shot after publishing the Norwegian translation of Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses. And after Iran's supreme leader called on Muslims to kill anyone involved with the book's release. We reached William Nygaard on a busy ferry. For security reasons he asked us not to say where.

CO: Mr. Nygaard, how confident are you that police are finally going to solve this case?

WILLIAM NYGAARD: If you're asking if they're going to find the people behind this attack, I'm certainly not sure about that. But there is definitely a greater chance now than before and the police in Norway are amazing in that sense. Let me underline, they have been very slow through the years, but at least, I must say, they stick to the principles. In their press release they underlined the importance of pursuing this case because of freedom of expression as a principle in a democratic society like Norway. And to break this time limit, they have pointed out certain people that they suspect are behind attack without mentioning names and a without mentioning where they come from.

CO: This is days before the statute of limitations runs out. Why do you think, 25 years, why has it taken so long for them to get to this place?

WN: It is somewhat difficult for me to produce any kind of excuse. I can try to analyze and try to find out. To bring you back to the political situation at that time, though I was very much involved in the Middle East situation with the Oslo agreement, it might somehow have made some kind of uncertainty in this situation. Second, I honestly don't think that they quite understood what was happening with the violent Islamism. They didn't see it, and of course it was difficult to see at that he time. They were somehow also confused about the murderer on Olof Palme, the Swedish prime minister they made the same mistake in their search as they did in Sweden — just to follow one certain track.

CO: The anniversary of this attack on you was just a day ago and I just wonder 25 years after you were shot outside your home, how clear is your memory of that horrible day?

WN: I remember every second. What happened is quite clear and the circumstances are quite clear. It is, to be honest, not something to rush into, but what happened was that I had been to the book fair in Frankfurt. Toni Morrison had just got of a Nobel literary prize. And as she he belonged to our publishing house I was very proud and we had invited her to Norway. So I was reading, reading, reading and I was coming out to pick up my car in the morning of the 11th of October. I saw that this front left tire was punched and I swore a bit. My son had borrowed the car when I was in Frankfurt and I started calling a taxi and all of a sudden an enormous kind of electrical shock — I thought it was an electrical shock. And after the second electrical shock — that was the second shot.

CO: These are bullets — you're talking about bullets being fired into your body, aren't you?

WN: Yeah, they fired from behind. Then I really screamed all of a sudden, as much as I could, to warn that something was happening. It was in quite lonely area, but I have a neighbor 50 meters away. After the second shot, the third came and I was still able to run or 50 meters to a hill and could not move after that, but I could show very weakly and luckily enough I was heard by the neighbour. The ambulance came and, of course, they found out in the hospital.

CO: That you had been shot?

WN: After the operation I was told that I was shot. And, of course, the man who shot me got some time to get away. He was observed by one young lady and she was so afraid that she moved from the house and informed only three weeks later.

CO: Did you immediately — once you learned that you had been shot, was it your assumption right away that it was because you had published Salman Rushdie?

WN: What happened in the hospital, I was told, was that one of the doctors had read about the Rushdie case, he had read the book and understood very fast that it was me who published it. So then the alarm was given, much too late — maybe an hour, maybe two hours too late. So probably the people who were involved either had the chance to get hidden in a certain embassy or had passed the border or had left by airplane.

CO: So the assumption was that you were a victim of crime, that they didn't realize it was an assassination until much later.

WN: That doctor understood immediately, and the public in a way understood immediately. But the police want it to be triple-sure that they didn't make the same this take of the police officer in Sweden did it the so-called Olof Palme case.

CO: Many people’s lives were changed, including Salman Rushdie’s. How did that change your life all these years after this experience?

WN: I must say that this is anniversary, so to speak if you put it that way, it reminds me a bit about what happened when I was shot. But during the years it has been fine because I kept my distance from the whole case, not made this a personal case, but that principle case, which is extremely important which I also want to underline.

CO: Do you ever regret that you published the book?

WN: No. That's part of our job.

CO: You saw that as part of your campaign also for free speech.

WN: That's part of our job. As a publisher that part of the job. Like you in the media have to do the same.

CO: I know you're just getting off a ferry, I know you've landed someplace. I’ll just ask you one last quick question. Do you think that Satanic Verses would be published today?

WN: Yes.

CO: In this political environment?

WN: Yes. We would have done it.

CO: You would have done it?

WN: Yes.

CO: All right. That's very admirable, Mr. Nygaard. I know you’ve got to get going, I appreciate talking with you. We'll be following the case. Thank you so much.

WN: Bye-bye.

CO: Bye-bye.

CH: Willian Nygaard is the chair of the Norwegian chapter of the freedom of expression advocacy group PEN. You can find more on his story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih. In Salman Rusdie’ 2012 memoir Joseph Anton, he described Mr. Nygaard’s decision, and the decisions of others like him to publish the Satanic Verses as quote “one of the greatest defenses of free speech of our time,” unquote. In September of that year Carol asked Mr. Rushdie about his decision to go forward with the satanic verses in the face of so much fundamentalist outrage.

SOUNDCLIP

SALMAN RUSHDIE: I think there were some huge principles at stake. I mean, freedom of speech is not just a cliché, it's something without which all other freedoms disappear. It's the bedrock of a free society and of course it needs to be defended. So, of course, that other principle is not to succumb to tyrannical bullying by anybody.

CO: Because this is the first time I've read and understood what the threats were, what you were being warned about. Can you describe what was out there?

SR: Look, very simply the reason I was offered police protection was because the intelligence services in England, their analysis was that there was a very high probability that I would be the target of a state-sponsored terrorist attack organized by professional assassins in the employ of another state.

CO: Which is the state of Iran?

SR: Yeah. And they said it's because you are under attack from another state that the British state feels it has to defend against that attack. And that was the only reason.

CO: These were, in fact, death squads that they knew that the Iranian government had issued with orders to find you and kill you.

SR: That's correct. And there were several moments during this period of the protection when I was informed that they — the police and the intelligence services — believed that one such squad, or maybe more than one such squad, had entered the country in order to carry out the threats. Yeah, I do think that it's true that because I wasn't killed there are people who think that nobody was trying to kill me know and that it was somehow me liking to have all this protection and noise around me, that it was somehow my ego that was driving it.

CO: You’ve even had one wife at the time, now ex-wife, who perpetuated that, I understand?

SR: Yes, it didn't help. I hope she's ashamed and I bet she's not, but there we are. I only have to remind you that other people were attacked, that there were bookstores in North America and in England that were bombed — sometimes more than once. There were endless threats against people in publishing companies and bookstores. My Italian translator was knifed and beaten and fortunately survived. My Japanese translator was murdered at his university in an elevator. My Norwegian publisher was shot three times in the back, and by a miracle survived — and not just survived but made a full recovery, he was not crippled. This was actually happening.

CO: You said at the end that it's hard to say whether the battle of the Satanic Verses ended in victory or defeat. Why is that?

SR: Well, if you look at it narrowly, then yes, I think we didn't do so badly. That's to say there was an attempt to suppress the novel. The novel is available in whatever it is, 48-49 languages. There was an attempt to suppress the author and he’s sitting here talking to you. So if you look at it at that level, then yeah, it was a well fought fight at the end and I managed to achieve a thing that for a very long time I didn't believe I would achieve, which is a normalization of my life and also a normalization of the publishing of that book. But if you look more broadly at the kind of chilling effect of that event, I think there was one, and is one. And I think people — meaning people in the publishing industry — are very wary of getting involved with the forces of radical Islam now. And I think there is a degree of reluctance to publish anything which smacks at all of a criticism of Islam or even about Islam. So that's a longer battle, I think, which is absolutely not won. And the only ray of hope I can find is that, I guess, three years ago it was the 20th anniversary of the fatwa and they interviewed a lot of the Muslim leaders who had been active in the battle against the book. And I think with no exceptions, all of them said that they thought it had been a mistake, that they shouldn't have done it. Some of them said that for tactical reasons, they said that it backfired on the community, that it had made the community more unpopular and hadn't really gained them anything. And as far as Salman Rushdie is concerned, it just made him more famous and made him a lot more money. So they shouldn't have done it. But other people actually seemed to have accepted the free speech argument and said that they understood that if they were to be allowed to say what they wanted to say it was wrong of them to try and prevent other people from saying things that they didn't like. So I thought that's interesting, 20 years later, that more or less everybody who had been involved in leading the campaign against the book had come to the conclusion that it had been a bad thing.

CH: From our archives that was Salman Rushdie speaking with Carol in 2012.

[Music: Electruc Guitar Strumming]

Clam microplastics

Guest: Krista Beardy

CH: When Krista Beardy was kayaking in the Bay of Fundy she was dumbfounded by the amount of plastic pollution she came across in the water. But she didn't realize how much plastic she would eventually find. Ms. Beardy is a biology graduate student at the University of New Brunswick who's been digging up clams, cracking them open and putting them under a microscope for her thesis project. She's found traces of microplastics in every single clam except for one. We reached Krista Beardy in Saint John, New Brunswick.

CO: Ms. Beardy, how much microplastic have you found inside the clams you looked at on the shores of the Bay of Fundy?

KRISTA BEARDY: I found a consistent amount of plastic throughout the clam that I digested in the Bay of Fundy. We've ranged from one or two pieces to up to 14 pieces in one clam.

CO: What do you mean when you digested the?

KB: When I harvest the clams I take them back to the lab and I remove the plastic from the clam tissue by digesting all of the organic tissue around the plastic and that just leaves the plastic bits behind.

CO: What do you think is the source of the microplastic you found?

KB: The source of the micro plastic in the Bay of Fundy region, at least from what I can tell in the preliminary analysis, is that it looks like ropes. All of the small pieces I'm finding resemble the ropes that you find that wash up on the beach around here.

CO: It’s from the fishing industry, then?

KB: Between fishing and aquaculture on other at-sea industries, yes. It’s a big part of what we do hearing in New Brunswick, and, of course, down into the Gulf of Maine. I think fishing on the East Coast all the way down the Eastern Seaboard is kind of a big deal. We know how much water moves through Bay of Fundy, so I think it's all mixed in there.

CO: What has the fishing industry, people in that industry, how have they reacted to your discovery and your publication of this?

KB: When this first came to light and I discussed it with certain members of our local fishery, we came up with a plan and that was with the rope recycling program that we started last year. So it did hit home as long as I could make it relevant to our local industry here, to the possible damages can be caused by plastics in the water or in the sediments. We've had a lot of success gathering ropes and getting garbage brought back to shore.

CO: And what have they said? Are they changing their practices? Do they think that they can make a difference for what you're seeing in the clams?

KB: I think that they're more mindful about their practices. I think instead of putting a rope or an unusable plastic item where it might make it back into the ocean or might go off the side of a boat, they are actually making the effort to bring everything back to shore and put it in the proper container where it can be taken away and recycled.

CO: One of the big aspects of the fishing industry in New Brunswick, in that area, is lobster fishing. So did you look at lobsters at all to see if they had the same micro plastics in them?

KB: I have not looked at lobsters. It's not too much of a stretch to make that connection that if it’s in the bivalves it's most likely just about anything else that's feeding around the bottom of the ocean, which lobsters do.

CO: We know that there are these giant swirls of garbage and mountains of plastic out in the oceans and on the high seas and washing up on some of the big coasts. Were you surprised that it was in the Bay of Fundy?

KB: I don't think I was surprised, no. The ocean does move in a big global conveyor belt kind of motion, so it's all going to get mixed in there. I was surprised at how much is in our area, specifically in very uninhabited areas, places that are not high-population, there’s not a lot of industry close by, but some of these beaches just act as collector beaches, whether that be ocean currents or the prevailing winds, I’m not sure — that is what surprised me.

CO: When you started to look into the clams — or really looking into them, in side of them, you started this in the middle of the winter, right? How did you dig them out?

KB: I got out there, I wore a lot of warm clothes and just started shovelling. I'm not a clam-digger by trade and I never have been. But I looked at a few YouTube videos and I talked to some local people who pointed me in the right direction and started from there. It's not a difficult task, it's a little hard on the back, especially in the winter time trudging through the icy conditions with a lot of equipment just to go shovel up some really cold sediment. It was interesting.

CO: I've done clam-digging in the summer and it's hard to do. I can’t imagine doing it in January.

KB: Yeah, between mid-January and mid-February I was out there most days.

CO: And so with what you have discovered, and you're trying to make people aware of it, I guess, I mean, you're talking about a food chain here, aren't you? You want to get to smaller animals to see what they have in there because they're also part of the food chain. But the top of the food chain it's us, right? I mean, we're eating the stuff — the clams and lobsters that have ingested this. So what effect is it having on us?

KB: I don't think it's having a direct effect at the moment. It's nothing to cause any great amount of alarm and help you to put down their clams and don’t buy that lobster at Christmas time. It's more about the fact that it's starting. We're starting to see this happen. And, of course, after last year's ‘Pepsi-lobster’ story where we had a very good object lesson as to how marine debris can affect wildlife. The stuff that we're finding in seafood not big enough to obstruct our guts or cause any sort of gastric issues. The problem is plastic as it gets smaller, it increases in surface area. And when it does that, it likes to bind to other contaminants that are in the background in the ocean. So things like persistent organic gluten, the most well-known one of course is DDT, but at the concentrations we're seeing right now I don't see any harm at the moment.

CO: Maybe no harm to people but, I mean, there's a lot of animals in between the clams and the humans in the in the food chain. Are you concerned what's happening to all of them — the birds and the and the other sea creatures and mammals?

KB: This is exactly why I want to focus on smaller critters because the smaller it is the more something has to eat of it. So say zooplankton of a certain size, it it’s eating plastic pieces that we have a whale that’s eating how many plankton in the in the course of a day to survive, especially here in the Bay of Fundy, the right whales have it hard already with ship strikes and entanglement issues — even if one-in-ten plankton that they eat has a piece of contaminated microplastic that could trigger an effect.

CO: Well, I hope you get out and do your digging before it gets too cold.

[LAUGHTER]

KB: I'm digging right now and I'm hoping to be done by early November. So it won’t be quite so bad as last year.

CO: Good plan. Ms. Beardy, thank you.

KB: Thank you so much.

CO: Bye.

KB: Bye.

CH: Krista Beardy is a biology graduate student at the University of New Brunswick. We reached her in Saint John.

[Music: Ambient Drums]

Hurricane Michael aftermath

CH: Access to the worst hit parts of the Florida Panhandle is still limited. But slowly, some of those who fled Hurricane Michael are starting to return home — and finding their homes destroyed. CNN's Brooke Baldwin is in Mexico Beach, Florida where she encountered a woman named Sherri standing in tears at the spot where her house used to be.

SOUNDCLIP

SHERRI: Nothing's there.

BROOKE BALDWIN: Nothing’s there?

SHERRI: No.

BB: There are just no — there are no words.

SHERRI: No there’s not. There's so many memories here. Now, I don’t know what I’m going to do.

BB: Were you able to take anything before you left?

SHERRI: I didn't get my pictures. I had to rush out of here some — just some clothes and my jewelry box. I didn’t get a chance to get my pictures.

BB: Can you tell me what Mexico Beach was like?

SHERRI: It was beautiful. Everybody was just kind, they helped each other. If you were in need they’d help you. I just knew everybody here, just about.

BB: And to see this?

SHERRI: Yes.

BB: Feels like what?

SHERRI: I can’t describe it. It’s just terrible. I just can’t describe the feeling. I know I'm not the only one here that feels the same. They've lost everything.

CH: CNN's Brooke Baldwin in Mexico Beach, Florida. Speaking to a woman who lost her home to Hurricane Michael.

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Part 3: Nauru refugees, Banting painting

Nauru refugees

Guest: Beth O'Connor

CH: For nearly a year a psychiatrists and psychologist with Médecins Sans Frontières have been working on the island of Nauru. It's one of the places where Australia sends refugees and asylum seekers under its controversial ‘offshore processing policy.’ MSF says it has been providing critically needed mental health care to people on the island. But last week, staff were sent packing. They say they were told by the Nauru government that their services were no longer needed. MSF staff do not agree with that assessment. Now, in a statement issued today, the Nauru government has accused MSF of conspiring against it and engaging in political activism. Beth O'Connor is a psychiatrist with MSF who has been on Nauru for most of the past 11 months. We reached her in Sydney.

CO: Dr. O'Connor, what will the people of Nauru be missing now that you and your colleagues have been ordered out?

BETH OCONNOR: Well, over the last eleven months we were providing mental health care to both the Nauruan and the refugees and asylum-seeker population. Amongst the Nauruan population we were treating people mainly with chronic psychotic illnesses. And amongst the refugee and asylum-seeker population people were suffering from illnesses such as depression, anxiety and post-traumatic stress disorder. And as a consequence of those disorders they were having suicidal thoughts self-harming and making suicide attempts.

CO: Were you able to make a difference? Was it helping over these past eleven months that you and your colleagues have been there?

BO: Amongst the Nauruan population we were seeing improvement, but amongst the refugees and asylum-seeker population, what we were seeing was their mental health was continuing to decline and that was occurring due to events that were happening and this ongoing detention in Nauru for the last five years. We noticed that there were particular times where people's mental health deteriorated. And one of those times was in May of this year when over 70 refugees on the island received negative responses through the U.S. resettlement process. What we saw was that people’s mental health had deteriorated; usually they were deemed worse than when we started working with them. So we had managed to get some improvement of mental health, then there were all these negative responses that were given for the U.S. resettlement process and then their mental health deteriorated. Usually lower than when we started working with them.

CO: Can you just tell us why the Nauru government is kicking you out? Why did they order you out?

BO: The reason that was given to us was that our services were no longer required. When we left the island we saw an ongoing need for mental health care on the island for both the Nauruan population and the refugees and asylum-seekers. We had a waiting list of hundreds at our clinic at the time we left, which suggests to us that there is an ongoing need amongst refugees and asylum-seekers a lot of them would present to the hospital with dehydration due to an adequate food or fluid intake, due to being depressed or with suicide attempts. And often they were either turned away from the hospital or taken to the police cells, which is ongoing, which is evidence that they don't have adequate healthcare services to manage their mental health needs on the island.

CO: In the statement that they put out are saying that you had to go, they say that this is not true, that the refugee children are growing up with the Nauruan children, the people within on the island already. They grow up, this is a quote, “The children grow up here a happy, healthy, educated within strong family unions. They're creating friendships and familial bonds.” Everything is fine and you are exaggerating. What do say to that?

BO: Over the eleven months that we were there we saw a significant decline in the mental health of the children of the refugees and asylum-seekers. What we observed is that children that previously we’d been able to talk to — I was on the island for all of that time — so I got to know a lot of these children. I talked to them in the street and the settlement, at the shops and then these children became more depressed, more socially withdrawn. And then when I visited them in their homes, they had taken to their bed and they weren't even able to communicate with their family anymore. They were not eating or drinking sufficient amounts to sustain their life. Some of them were unable to go to the toilet anymore, they are incontinent of urine and feces. And when you try to talk to these children, these children that previously I had been able to talk to, they would just not respond and they would just look right through me if I got into this field of vision. It was like I wasn't there.

CO: It's very similar to last week, we interviewed an NGO worker in Moira, which is a camp in in Greece for refugees and described something very similar — the mental health, especially among, the children the suicidal tendencies that are just rampant. And he said this he said the same thing, it was this despair, this complete lack of hope that anything would change or who they would ever get out of the situation they're in. Is that what you're finding?

BO: Yes, we're definitely seeing that there's this policy of indefinite offshore detention and that is an Australian policy that is causing this hopelessness and despair amongst the refugees and asylum-seekers. And MSF is calling for the immediate evacuation of all of these asylum-seekers and refugees from Nauru so that they can complete the resettlement process in a place of safety with dignified conditions.

CO: Again, this is going back to the statement the government of the Republic of Nauru. The press release says that you are political activists, that you were just there to criticise this offshore facility. They accuse you of a political activism. They said you weren't there to help people, you were there to make a point. What do you say to that?

BO: We're a medical organization and we were there to provide medical care. And this is our observation of the mental health of the population over the time that we were there. And what we're commenting on is what we witnessed in this population.

CO: Dr. O'Connor, we will leave it there, and I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

BO: Thank you.

CO: All right, bye-bye.

CH: Beth O'Connor is an MSF psychiatrist who has worked on Nauru. We reached her in Sydney, Australia.

[Music: Ambient Tones]

Beckie Scott WADA bullying

CH: First Canadian athlete Beckie Scott took a stand by resigning from a committee of the World Anti-Doping Agency. She did that to protest Russia's readmission to the organization last month. Now she's speaking out about her treatment by high level WADA officials. In an interview with the BBC she talked about how she was bullied as she tried to present the views of athletes to the agency. Here's part of her interview with BBC Sports Editor Dan Roan.

SOUNDCLIP

BECKIE SCOTT: I would say I was treated with a level of disrespect and with comments and gestures that were inappropriate and indicative of a general attitude of dismissal and belittling of the athlete voice at the table.

DAN ROAN: From whom?

BS: That was behaviour directed at me by the members of the Olympic movement who are members of the WADA executive committee.

DR: So members of the Olympic movement, in the form of an executive committee meeting, said things which were designed to denigrate, intimidate, dismiss?

BS: Bully.

DR: To bully? They tried to be bully you?

BS: Yeah.

DR: Can you tell me how that was done?

BS: I mean, just through comments, through gestures — there was laughter when I read the list of athlete committees who had produced statements and who were confronting this decision. It was was a combined effect that left me feeling as though there is very little respect, there is very little appreciation and there is very little value for the contribution that the athletes have at this table.

DR: Is WADA’s on the line here, do you think?

BS: I think something needs to change. And I think the time is now. We need a return to integrity-based decision making, a return to a place where athletes are valued and contributing members of the organization and a return to what sport is fundamentally all about.

DR: That was Canadian athlete Beckie Scott speaking with BBC Sports Editor Dan Roan.

[Music: Ambient Tones]

Banting painting

Guest: Christopher Rutty

CH: You know Frederick Banting as the pioneering scientist who discovered insulin alongside Charles Best in 1921. That won them the Nobel Prize for medicine — so, you know, he was very good at science. So it's impressive, and kind of unnerving, to learn that Dr. Banting was also very good at art. He was friendly with several members of the Group of Seven and painted landscapes to relax. His day job rarely intersected with his artistic work — except in one painting. It's called The Lab and it depicts the University of Toronto laboratory where he made the scientific breakthrough that would ultimately win him and his research partner the Nobel. This fall, that 1925 painting is up for auction. Medical historian Christopher Rutty will be watching the sale. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Professor Rutty, this painting of Frederick Banting’s lab late at night, can you describe it for us?

CHRISTOPHER RUTTY: Well, it's painting looking out the window, or near a window of the medical building that used to be University of Toronto, to a shelf of bottles in various lab research equipment —sort of a bit of a mess in some ways. It kind of reflects Banting's mood at the time actually, it was painted in 1925. He painted it the just before he met A.Y. Jackson, who he would later go on to paint a lot of stuff with and develop a style — more of a Group of Seven traditional outside, landscape kind of style. And by this point, just before that he had met Lawren Harris before that and had joined with the Arts and Letters club where the Group of Seven hung out, and Banting was kind of given a membership. After this point his style changed quite a bit, but Banting never saw himself as an artist in the same sense as the other guys. He was definitely a researcher and a doctor but he appreciated the creative side of arts and you related to them on that level. But in ‘25 when this was painted he was kind of in a bad place in some ways.

CO: In what way? What way was he in a bad place?

CR: Well, his marriage wasn’t going that well, he was a bit more on the depressed side, I suppose, just because he was almost famous a guy in Canada at the time, Nobel Prize winner, all kinds of pressure on him to do something. What's next after insulin? So he was not happy in that sense. Frustrated because he tried to do different things, he wasn’t short of ideas but it wasn't easy to sort of recapture that glory. And then the whole experience had changed his life and he didn't expect that — he’d have been happier as a country doctor.

CO: But he was obviously — he was painting, he had this talent, he wanted to find some expression before he met members of the Group of Seven.

CR: Yeah, he had started painting back in London, Ontario around the time he'd had the idea of insulin. He had walk by an art store and sort of picked it up and had a very amateurish approach but he had a need to express himself because he also wanted — he to tried writing, fiction writing and different things like that. So he was kind of restless soul.

CO: But he travelled with A.Y. Jackson, he went on some of their nature painting tours.

CR: Yeah, just after this. That's why this painting is kind of a turning point. He’s looking back at the insulin story, and soon after this he was on a whole ‘nother course, inters of his heart at least.

CO: But now, he said elsewhere that he at the age of 50 wanted to give up all his science and paint full time, become the artist. And then he died at the age of 49 in this plane crash.

CR: Yeah, in 1941 he was involved with research, medical research for the military basically, and he was on his way over to England when the plane crashed, so that’s the tragic end to his life. And he was getting back into the research mode a bit later. You know, things were coming together or better for him later on but around this time in ‘25 when this painting was done it was a very different time and different period in his life — a real turning point. And again, the painting he gave to Sadie Gairns, who was his long-time assistant.

CO: And this is who had it and she passed it on to others and where has it been all these years?

CR: I'm not sure how long she had it but she gave it to another research assistant who was married to a guy that ran the insulin committee's lab. At that time she would have related to the this scene, I guess, because she was a researcher herself like Sadie. So that's one reason I think Banting gave this painting. He gave paintings to everybody, all over the place. He gave them to his friends and colleagues and Sadie was a particularly important person in his life.

CO: In what way? She was a lab assistant, was there a deeper relationship?

CR: Yeah. It grew, she was probably in love with him in some way. They eventually did have a bit of an affair, an encounter at least, physically, at some point in 1936 or so. But she was, in many ways Banting’s point of view, more important than his wife. Just because she was there, she understood him and understood the science and understood everything in the lab and that kind of thing. And she was his assistant, secretary and lab assistant — but she wasn't just the secretary she knew the lab work, they did work together, she was a biochemist and had her own biochemistry experience.

CO: The life of women scientist, hey?

CR: Yeah.

CO: Limited career opportunities.

CO: Just finally, this painting is now going up for auction in November. Where will the money go that this painting will get?

CR: The buyer's premium is going to the Banting & Best Diabetes Centre, which is an extra-departmental unit of the faculty of medicine at U of T, which is where all this started. It’s coming back home in some ways, which is nice.

CO: But do you think the painting will stay home, will stay in Canada?

CR: I don’t know about that. I mean, it’s great that some of the proceeds of the auction will come here or come back U of T. I'm not sure what will happen. There's a lot of potential interest from people from U of T because this is different than the usual Banting painting. I can imagine, It's an interesting painting and an interesting story.

CO: And yes, such an interesting back story to it. Professor Rutty, I really appreciate you telling us about it. Thank you.

CH: Christopher Rutty is a medical historian at the University of Toronto Dalla Lana School of Public Health. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music: Trance Bass]

Pik Botha obit

CH: He was tasked with defending the indefensible. For almost two decades Pik Botha served as South Africa's foreign minister — and the mouthpiece for the apartheid regime. Pik Botha died last night. He was 86 years old. In the end, when Mr. Botha found himself on the wrong side of history, he chose the path of truth and reconciliation. He even served as a minister in Nelson Mandela's government. He said Mr. Mandela told him we need each other to succeed. As It Happens spoke to Pik Botha many times over the years. Here's part of one conversation with Barbara Frum in 1977 after Canada had announced trade sanctions against South Africa.

SOUNDCLIP

PIK BOTHA: I don't think that the foreign ministers of our people can be surprised anymore by anyone in any event.

BARBARA FRUM: Does it affect you? Does it make a difference? I think Canada would like to think that if they put on the heat you are going to change.

PB: No. If that is the position, the answer is no. We're not changing for the sake of others.

BF: The question is can Canada, perhaps in concert with other countries in the West, force you to liberalize?

PB: You know, that's a very interesting question. I've often wondered whether we could, by talking to Canada, persuade to be bit more humane and more realistic as far as your Indigenous people are concerned. We are not perfect, but we're not the villain that some of your politicians are trying to make it us out to be.

BF: All right Mr. Botha, let me try this on you, because I think many Canadians feel its own government's motives here aren't exactly totally pure. And there's a lot of hypocrisy and a lot a double standard and all of that. But the fact is that the world has taken a strong moral position about the right of black people in South Africa. Maybe they feel guilty about their own colonial past. Who knows? And if you could have flourishing trade with the world you'll never change. And they know it. And your military might will never be matched. And they know it.

PB: We're trying to tell Canada, we’re trying to tell the world what we’re trying to do. All we’re asking is another place on God’s earth where we can hope to survive and live. If we cannot do that and if that is denied to us, then why should we try to please the whole world? We have not stolen land from anyone. We have not taken land from anyone. Far less than the Canadians have taken land from their Indigenous people.

CH: That was Barbara Frum speaking to South Africa's Foreign Minister Pik Botha in 1977. Mr. Botha died last night at the age of 86. As you heard, Barbara’s has many interviews with Pik Botha sometimes turned combative. In one, Mr. Botha had enough for questioning his government's policies. Here is the end of that interview from 1979.

SOUNDCLIP

BARBARA FRUM: I didn't call you up at this hour to argue with you, but presumably there is never going to be investigations unless the press is a watchdog. Mr. Foster didn't resign after the Erasmus commission, only after the press clamoured.

PB: I'm also not prepared to argue with you. It's not such a great pleasure for me even to talk with you. So under these circumstances, goodbye.

CH: South African Foreign Minister Pik Botha hanging up on Barbara Frum in 1979. Now, of course, that is not the only time a guest has hung up on an As It Happens host — not by a long shot. As part of our 50th anniversary coverage we've put together a compilation of some of the many times we've heard that conclusive click and a dial tone. You can hear those interviews and read about the backstories on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient Tones]

Gord Downie

CH: Next week marks two years since the release of Gord Downie's album Secret Path — part of a larger project that the Tragically Hip frontman had been working on for years. It tells the story of Chanie Wenjack an Anishinaabe boy who died while trying to walk the 600 kilometres home from the residential school he had fled. Almost exactly a year after the album's release Gord Downie died following the diagnosis of a cancerous brain tumor. Throughout his final year he maintained a feverish creative pace, rehearsing for live performances of Secret Path and traveling to a Ogoki Post, Ontario in Martin Falls First Nation, to meet with members of the Wenjack family. He also continued work on Introduce Yourself, an album he had begun shortly after his diagnosis that would be released posthumously. Now, a year after his death, his brothers Mike and Patrick are releasing a documentary that chronicles Gord Downie's last year. Finding The Secret Path airs tonight on CBC Television at 9- 930 P.M. in the Northwest Territories. In this clip you'll hear Gord Downie and also Chanie Wenjack's sister Pearl.

SOUNDCLIP

GORD DOWNIE: It’s an emotional beginning, middle and end. And in the end if feel pretty f***ing spent — as I do right now. It’s not a mood thing, it’s more like ‘God, wow. It’s a journey and I brought it on myself like a dumb Canadian.

PEARL WENJACK: I admired my brother for having the courage to run away from school because I didn't have that courage. I know he was beaten, I know he was punished, I also know that was sexually assaulted.

GD: It's time. It’s long since past time for communities like yours to be helped, to be looked at, to be noticed, to be recognized. That’s going to change and I can feel it, and you should know that it will change.

PW: He’s going to feel, you know, that he’s done something in his life — something very, very important to other people. As big as the world is, we're all connected in some way. We’re connected in every way.

CH: Audio from the CBC documentary Finding The Secret Path, which follows singer Gord Downie in his final year of life. It airs tonight on CBC TV at 9 p.m., 930 in the Northwest Territories. You can also view it online at www.cbc.ca/watch.

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Oct. 12, 2018 episode transcript

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