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The AIH Transcript for October 8, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight…

CO: Number crunch time. The world's leading scientists say the clock is running out in our effort to stop climate change. We hear from one of the economists awarded a Nobel Prize today for doing the math on a sustainable future.

JD: Inside information. Turkey accuses the Saudis of killing a journalist last seen entering their consulate in Istanbul. We will speak to the man the Saudis brought inside to try to prove they've done nothing wrong.

CO: To err is human to forgive is sometimes unimaginable. As part of As It Happens 50th Anniversary we reconnect with Michael Berg, a father who forgave the terrorist who took his son's life.

JD: Out of the hot seat. An Alberta researcher tests claims that sitting is the new smoking and finds those carcinogenic little tubes just can't be beat when it comes to causing death.

CO: Calls of the wild. A veterinarian gets a series of urgent calls from her marine mammal hospital only to find that she'd been dialed by a gecko doing a sticky fingered dance on their touchscreen phone.

JD: And…Utterly intoxicating. An Ontario distiller makes a powerful clear elixir from that white drink we get from cows. They call it Vodkow. As It Happens: The Monday Edition. Radio they just knew they'd milk it for a pun.

[Music: Theme]

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Part 1: International Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) report, Saudi journalist disappearance, Vodkow

International Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) report

Guest: Paul Romer

JD: The UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change sent out an urgent warning today. Its scientists issued a report warning we have just 11 years to transform the way we work, live and play — and if we do not we will unleash cataclysmic forces, from floods and unstoppable sea level rises, to heat waves that will take more and more lives. That report comes on the same day that the Nobel Committee awarded its prize in economics to two people who have made the relationship between growth technology and climate change a focus of their work. Their names are William Nordhaus and Paul Romer. We reach Mr. Romer in New York.

CO: Professor Romer, Congratulations.

PAUL ROMER: Thanks so much.

CO: Tell us about how you found out?

PR: I heard the phone ring twice this morning just before 6:00 and I thought it was a spam call so I didn't even bother to try and answer. But I couldn't get back to sleep and I started thinking ‘Well, it's unusual to get spam at that time of morning.’ So I thought maybe it was one of my kids and then I looked and saw that it was from Sweden and I thought I better give them a call back.

CO: And how exciting was it to get that news?

PR: Well, the moment that I really started to feel excited was — I checked and they told me you won the prize. And I said ‘But as is it shared with anybody?’ And they said ‘Yes, it's with Bill Nordhaus,’ and then I was actually starting to get happy because I think Bill is a terrific choice. And I've argued for a long time that he deserves the prize, so that that made it very special.

CO: And the reason why the two of you, though you do different kinds of economics, are combined together for your understanding of how economies can grow sustainably, but from a different point of view, right? So I always hate to ask this question, but in a nutshell can you describe your life's work?

PR: A lot of economics is about stuff, like more wheat or more corn from the plains. And in that world you're always facing trade-offs. You know, it's that trade-off thing. Bill and I are both focused on something very different, which is: If we make the right discoveries we can get more corn and more wheat and more of everything else, and that the real win is the discovery of new better ways to do things. For both of us there is this just conviction that if we create the right nudge in this direction and get this amazing economic system trying to solve an important social problem, it'll make huge progress — much more than most people think.

CO: And in particular today to have the two of you named for the Nobel Prize, the IPCC released its report today. That is the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, a devastating report — catastrophic climate change is on the way. The clock is ticking and we're in real trouble. With that as a backdrop to this, what is the message do you think that they're sending about giving the two of you this award?

PR: You know, the point of the prizes is to celebrate the very special function that science can serve by giving people a reliable sense of the facts. And so, I don't think you know the goal here is to try and spin some policy action. It's really just to say that we're people who — maybe if there's a spin to it it's that we both are people who think that you don't pursue science just for its own sake, that the best science comes out of tackling practical problems. And so I was looking at development and urbanization and science policy. Bill was about, more recently, about climate but we both think that good science can inform decision making.

CO: Okay on that front, what does your science, what does your work tell us we could do or must do to help avert this crisis that has been described by the IPCC?

PR: Well, I think one of the things that comes from studying technology is that people systematically underestimate the potential to discover better ways to do things. So, I believe, and I think Bill believes, that if we start encouraging people to find ways to produce lower carbon energy everybody's going to be surprised at the progress we'll make as we go down that path. And so all we need to do is create some incentives that get people going in that direction and then we don't know exactly what solution come out of it, but we'll make big progress. Before it went to the World Bank I read the studies of what people anticipated when they were trying to address the ozone hole and then what happened afterwards. There was a lot of angst that this wouldn't work. It would be too disruptive to ban these chlorofluorocarbons. And then once the government acted and then there were treaties and other governments acted it was just barely noticeable. We made real progress on that and it didn't cause any big disruption in our lives. But this one will be harder but it won't be as bad as people are thinking, so we really need to keep our optimism and our heads about this and just say it's ‘We can solve this problem, we can still have growth, everybody can have a better life.’ We just need to get busy and solve this problem.

CO: You all we need to do is to get on to this but why is it so difficult? Because it's not happening, is it? I mean, in our own country, in Canada we're seeing three steps forward two steps back on this. Where is the evidence of that?

PR: Well, I mean, the policy is very simple if you just commit to a tax on the usage of fuels that don't directly or indirectly release greenhouse gases and then you make that tax increase steadily in the future, you announce that now people will see that there's a big profit to be made in figuring out ways to supply energy where they can do it without incurring the tax. So the problem is not knowing what to do. The problem is getting a consensus to act. A friend of mine who was a general in the Singaporean army said he'd studied the U.S. military and he said basically the U.S. was always late to a battle and they never intervened as soon as they should have. But once they did they did the right thing. And I think that's what we have to count on here, is that we're all the nations of the world are going to be slow in addressing this problem. But it's still possible that we will address it and the world will be a much better place when we do.

CO: All right we'll try and share your optimism about this Professor Romer, thank you.

PR: Good, I hope stir up people but that’s because optimism is sometimes what it takes to get people to act.

CO: Again, congratulations and thank you.

PR: Thank you.

JD: Paul Romer is a professor in economics at New York University, NYU. Today he received the Nobel Prize in Economics along with William Nordhaus. We reached Professor Romer in New York.

[Music: Guitar Strums]

Saudi journalist disappearance

Guest: Dominic Evans

JD: After nearly a week there is still no sign of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi. The exiled writer was last seen walking into the Saudi consulate in Istanbul to get some routine marriage documents. His fiancée was waiting outside. She says he never came out. And now Turkish authorities are claiming that Mr. Khashoggi was murdered inside and they have summoned the Saudi ambassador to answer the allegation. The Saudis say he left the building safely. They even invited the Reuters journalist Dominic Evans inside the consulate to back up their story. We reached Dominic Evans in Istanbul.

CO: Dominic, what are the authorities in Turkey now claiming happened to do Jamal Khashoggi.

DOMINIC EVANS: Well, on Saturday evening Turkish sources told us that their initial assessment was that Jamal Khashoggi was killed inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul on Tuesday when he went to visit to get some papers sorted out for his forthcoming marriage. Since then President Erdogan has spoken. He spoke today. He has not repeated those direct accusations, but he has said that it's up to Saudi Arabia now to show the evidence that Jamal Khashoggi, as they say, left the consulate on Tuesday afternoon after sorting out his paperwork.

CO: There are a few accounts, newspaper accounts and media accounts, quoting a senior Turkish police sources anonymously saying that he had been tortured killed and dismembered and that everything had been videotaped in order to prove to Saudi Arabia that it was mission accomplished. So you're being very careful with those kinds of sources of information. Am I assessing this correctly?

DE: Well, I mean, you're right. There is a lot that is floating around out there, if you like. What I can say that we have heard from sources that we reported on Saturday was that their preliminary assessment was that he had been killed inside the consulate. We've not had sources verifying some of those more grisly details that you’ve said about body parts being cut up, but they did say that they believed that this was a case of premeditated murder.

CO: And what are Saudi officials saying happened?

DE: Saudi officials said from the start that Jamal Khashoggi came into the consulate on Tuesday to get some paperwork sorted out for his forthcoming marriage. They say he was in the consulate for a short time, the paperwork was sorted out and that he left.

CO: That’s it? So they don't know where he is either? Are they saying ‘Well, one of our nationals has gone missing?’ Oh dear should look for him as well?’

DE: That's right. They've said they're following this with great concern. They have said they are willing to cooperate with Turkish authorities. Today, Turkey formally said it wanted to inspect and search the consulate. We're still waiting for a reply from the Saudis on that. I interviewed the Saudi consul on Saturday when we actually visited his consulate. He repeated that Saudi Arabia says Khashoggi left, of his own free will, the consulate on Tuesday afternoon. I asked him if they had any video evidence of that because there are security cameras at the consulate. He said those cameras show a livestream and they don't have a recording.

CO: They went even further at the consulate, didn't they? They took you for a tour of six floors of this building in order to prove to you that the journalist wasn't there.

DE: That's right, they did. They were very keen to back up what they were saying at the time. There were reports or rumors that that he was abducted or being held in the consulate. So from their point of view the purpose of this was to make their case that he wasn't there. So we did have a tour of the building, as you say, it's a pretty large building. From the outside it looks like a regular townhouse, if you like. It's maybe two or three stories but it goes — there are two three floors, subterranean floors as well. So we had a tour of the consulate from the absolute basement where there is a prayer room where the of filing storage rooms and the other five floors that include Visa counters, that include offices for officials who are dealing with Saudi affairs, Saudi nationals who are in Turkey or Turkey, the Consul's office himself and other offices. So we did have an extensive tour. The consul was going around he was opening cupboards to sort of show ‘Look, nothing to hide here,’ but obviously we are — I'm a journalist and I wasn't conducting a forensic search. I couldn't at the end of that tour to say ‘There is nothing to be seen here,’ but it was a very unusual move. They said they've never done this before in the history of the consulate. From their perspective it was trying to go a very long way to discount any accusations that showed Jamal Khashoggi was actually being held at the consulate.

CO: What a bizarre scene that must have been going around opening cupboards, ‘No, nothing. He’s not here. He’s not under this table, he’s not in this back room.’ I mean, that is really strange, isn't it?

DE: It's one of the more unusual assignments I've done, certainly.

CO: The thing about Mr. Khashoggi, them saying that ‘He is not here, we don't have him here. He is not in Saudi Arabia.’ It doesn't exactly say that they didn't do something to him, does it?

DE: No. That would that was simply to say he wasn't at the consulate on Saturday afternoon when we visited and that there were no obvious immediate signs of anything untoward there.

CO: There are a lot of political tensions between Saudi Arabia and Turkey. So does that factor into your questioning of the Turkish authorities and what they say happened to Mr. Khashoggi?

DE: It's definitely part of the picture. As you say, the relations are not great for a number of reasons. President Erdogan’s government itself, his party has its roots in Islamist politics. Turkey supported a government in Egypt that was a Muslim Brotherhood government in 2013-2014. The Muslim Brotherhood is it is a movement which the Saudis have declared as a terrorist organization. So there are big political differences between Turkey and Saudi Arabia. President Erdogan has not gone one hundred per cent on sort of attack mode, criticism mode of Saudi Arabia. That may also reflect the fact that Saudi Arabia is an important, very important country in the region. It's an economic power. It's a very important country for Muslims, it's home to Islam's two holiest sites. So it will be a very major escalation if Turkey came out officially, publicly and openly and made a very direct accusation against the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia that it had deliberately killed a citizen in Istanbul.

CO: Very worrisome. Dominic, I appreciate speaking with you tonight. Thank you.

DE: Thanks very much.

JD: Dominic Evans as Reuters bureau chief in Turkey we reached him in Istanbul.

[Music: Ambient Tones]

Vodkow

Guest: Omid McDonald

JD: There are some things that humans spend almost no time and effort on, like a signalling on the highway or fixing climate change. But there is at least one thing to do which we are extremely sincerely dedicated to — making alcohol out of every single thing that we can make it from. The most recent example, distillers have found a way to make vodka straight from a cow’s milk. The product is called Vodkow and it is the work of Dairy Distillery. Omid McDonald is the founder of Dairy Distillery. We reach him in Almonte, Ontario.

CO: Omid, what does vodka made from the cow’s milk taste like?

OMID MCDONALD: It taste, well in my opinion, it taste fantastic. Imagine a standard vodka but with absolutely no burn and a sweet smell and a caramelly finish.

CO: What do you mean no burn?

OM: I don't know if were a big vodka drinker back in your college days but vodka often have a acetone sort of taste to it, which many people don't like and when you drink it it burns going down but ours has none of that. It's a very smooth experience.

CO: Acetone is like nail polish remover, right?

OM: Yeah, exactly.

CO: You weren’t going to say is quite so indelicately. So what does it look like? Does It look like milk?

OM: Oh no, it's completely clear just like a vodka. We distill it to 94 per cent alcohol purity and then dilute it with spring water to bring it to 40 per cent alcohol. So you could mix it with all your favourite cocktails but what people are telling us is that it's good to sip on its own, which is pretty rare in a vodka.

CO: And this is made with regular milk or what part of milk are you using to make the vodka?

OM: So we're using something called milk permeates. So what happens is the milk comes into the milk processor from all the dairy farms. In our case, we're working with Parmalat, they are largest dairy processor about an hour south of Ottawa. The fats are taken off to make butter and ice cream and then they're left with the skim milk. And what they do to make it cheaper to ship the proteins in the skim milk, they concentrate them by taking out the water. And when they do that they also take out the lactose, the minerals and vitamins, and that liquid is called milk permeate. And what's interesting is right now they have very little use for it and the vast majority of it is dumped and that's what we're turning into alcohol.

CO: So this milk permeate, the farmers get rid of it? This is a waste product of milk and cheese and butter production?

OM: That's right. I don't like to call it waste but it's something that's being wasted right now. But milk sugar and all the sugars are in that and that's — right now the farmers have to pay for the safe disposal of this because lactose is harmful to the environment. So it's an environmental problem, it's a financial problem because it costs to dispose of it and also no one wants to see a good portion of what comes out of the cow wasted.

CO: How do you turn it into alcohol?

OM: Well, that's where we work with University of Ottawa with Professor Poulin there in the biology department to find a yeast that can ferment lactose. Most standard yeast won’t eat it, but Lucie [Poulin] found that a yeast that will consume lactose and produce alcohol.

CO: So it's distilled in big vats like any other alcohol?

OM: That's right. Well, it comes in — we actually get a milk truck that pulls up here. They pump it into our fermenters, so we have a large stainless steel fermenters, we fill that up with the permeate, we pitch in our yeast, they get to work, they take about 3-4 days to convert the lactose into alcohol. Then we put them into our stills where we purify the alcohol right up to 94 per cent and then we dilute that with water to make our Vodkow product.

CO: If someone were lactose intolerant could they drink this?

OM: Oh, that's a great question. No, not at all. So the yeast will cleave the lactose into their basic sugars and then eat those sugars. So there’s absolutely no lactose is the final product.

CO: And is it something you have to refrigerate?

OM: No, no. At the end of it it's just like a standard alcohol — the only difference it's been made from milk.

CO: So in all other respects it’s just variation, it's like vodka, as you say, it's smoother, less nail polish remover. And do you drink it straight? Do you mix it with something? What are your recipes at this point?

OM: Well, you can mix it. And we found that it mixes, obviously, very well with milk and we've been exploring also making cream liqueurs. So think of a Bailey's, but a 100 per cent Dairy Bailey’s, that’s something we're working on. And then also for sipping straight, people like it just on ice. So it's very versatile.

CO: You can make a White Russian out of it, I presume?

OM: A very white Russian, yeah.

CO: Of course, we’re talking about dairy because of a new trade agreement with the United States and what that means to dairy farmers. They're quite upset about that. If permeate is something that dairy farmers can provide how do you think that that affects the dairy industry?

OM: Well, for example, right now the alcohol industry is the third largest purchaser of Ontario grain. Right now the alcohol industry, other than us, purchases nothing from the dairy industry. So if we can make this popular we could become a significant source of revenue for dairy farmers, which as you've mentioned are under huge pressure right. So if you want to support the dairy farmer deink some vodka.

CO: And will you be exporting to the United States?

OM: Right now, we've built our distillery in Almonte to produce probably for the Ontario market, but as we get larger we'd love to ship this around the world.

CO: And what's to stop somebody else from taking your recipe, taking this system, this method and making their own?

OM: There was a lot of science, we spent a year-and-a-half working with the university to figure this all out, but we or people will start making use of this lactose which is currently being wasted. So we see it as a positive thing if other people also start working with milk-based spirits.

CO: I can't wait to have my first moo-tini.

OM Well, were welcome you here and sip with you here in Almonte.

CO: All right thanks Omid.

OM: Thank you.

JD: Omid McDonald is the founder of the Dairy Distillery. We reached him in Almonte, Ontario. And to see some photographs and a video of how Vodkow is made to go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Southern Band]

Gecko dialing

JD: Time now for things we read this week. This comes courtesy of Dr. Claire Simeone She's a marine veterinarian who spends a lot of time helping seals in Hawaii. And last week she posted a string of tweets about an incident at her animal hospital. It begins quote “So yesterday I started getting calls at our hospital, the Marine Mammal Center. I was getting lunch so I thought maybe someone had a seal-related question. I picked up. Silence. More calls — nine calls in 15 minutes. I started to panic a bit and drive back to the hospital. Seal emergency — I'm on it. I arrive. All is calm. Did anyone call me? No one did. I get another call. It's coming from inside the hospital. Meanwhile, several other people call the hospital asking why we are calling them incessantly. Very nice Hawaiian Tel man says it might be an issue with one of our phones or some of the software. He confirms that, yes, a bazillion calls are coming from one line. But I look at our office line. It's not that one. He asks me to look around to find the problem line. I walk around the hospital, not the fish kitchen, not the office, not the viewing room. I get another call from the Marine Mammal Center on my cell. I enter the laboratory — that is the line. I approached the phone. There is a gecko sitting on the touch screen of the phone making calls with his tiny gecko feet. This gecko has called me 15 times and everyone in our recent call list.” Here Dr. Simeone tweets an image of the offending gecko stuck to the screen of the phone before concluding quote “the adorable uprising is beginning” unquote.

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Part 2: Forgiveness' reunion

Forgiveness' reunion

Guests: Michael Berg and Peter Katz

JD: In the thousands of interviews As It Happens has conducted over 50 years on the air, it's rare that the show itself becomes part of the story. And certainly no one could have predicted that one such interview 12 years ago, borne of tragic circumstances, would give rise to a work of art and a lasting friendship between two strangers. The first, the person being interviewed, and the other a listener. In June of 2006 as it happened I spoke with Michael Berg after news broke that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, then the leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq, had been killed. Mr. Berg's son Nicholas suffered a gruesome death two years earlier at the hands of Mr. al-Zarqawi after he was captured by al-Qaida forces while working as a contractor in Iraq. Michael Berg's reaction to Mr. al-Zarqawi’s death was, to say the least, unexpected. With the ‘War on Terror’ underway it sparked controversy across the United States. He faced death threats and was even shot at. Here's some of what he told. As It Happens guest host Christopher Thomas in that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL BERG: Well, my reaction was a human reaction of sadness at the death of any fellow human being. And there were people that loved him and there are people that are now suffering the same pain that my family and I have suffered. And I cannot, and I will not, ever, justify revenge because that would justify my son's death.

JD: Peter Katz, a singer/songwriter from Toronto, heard Mr. Berg on the program that night in June as he was driving in his car. He was so moved by what he heard that he pulled over and began writing what would become a song called Forgiveness. As part of our 50th Anniversary coverage, Peter joined Carol in the As It Happens studio to reconnect with Michael Berg who we reached in a studio in Norfolk, Virginia.

CO: Hello, Michael.

MICHAEL BERG: Hello.

CO: And hello Peter, here in the studio with me.

PETER KATZ: Hello.

CO: It's extraordinary having both of you together.

PK: I feel that too, yes.

CO: Michael, I want to start with you because we heard some of your voice from that interview in 2006 in the introduction, and this is not long after you forgave your son's killer, someone who — a brutal murder of your son. And you said that you realized it was a response nobody wanted to hear. What did you mean by that?

MB: Well, people tried to talk me out of it. I think later that same day of that original interview Larry King interviewed me by telephone. And he kept saying ‘Well, come on Michael, this guy…’ And then he would be a lot more blunt than I would have wished him to be about what he did. And it just seemed like he just couldn't accept the fact, really as if he was accusing me of lying.

CO: And there was a lot of media coverage, right? And not just that, there were a lot of people who responded to you. People said horrible things to you, people in your face showing you photos and images and big banners of your son’s murder, and just so angry with you — someone took a shot at you. There was a bullet through a window at one point, it was just extraordinary.

MB: Yes, it was. Yes, it was.

CO: And how did you deal with that at the time?

MB: To tell you the truth, I think I was still pretty much living on adrenaline. And, as Peter said in his song, I felt like I had nothing left to lose. So I'm not normally as maybe brave or foolhardy as I was as far as exposing myself to possible dangers back then.

CO: You call yourself — you said ‘I'm in the ‘nothing left to lose club’ I think you said in our interview.

MB: Right. Right. Well, there were a lot of us back in the day. You know, I knew a lot of people who had lost children in the war and that's what we called ourselves.

CO: But you came to this point of forgiving al-Zarqawi not immediately. This is something that was a process, it took some months — about half-a-year — and you were describing that to us when we spoke to you in 2006. I just want to play a bit of what you said at that time.

SOUNDCLIP

MB: I have to admit that it took a little bit of time. I never once asked for revenge against him because I knew that that was wrong. I knew that my son would say that that was wrong. But it took me a while, about half-a-year, I think, before I came to the point where I can honestly say that I forgave him. One day I opened up a catalogue that came in the mail that offered a course at nearby Immaculata University that was entitled to ‘Forgiveness: The way to love in a wounded world’ And I thought ‘I'm not a Catholic. I'm not a Christian. Not even a very good Jew, or even much of anything, but I have to take that course.’ And I took that course then I learned what forgiveness is all about.

CO: That was from 2006. Michael what did that course teach you about forgiveness?

MB: Well, I think one of the biggest things that it taught me was that to forgive someone is not to condone what they did. I certainly don't condone what Zarqawi did but it's basically, I would say, not to hate — and it is a process. This sister, Sister Sheila Callaghan, who taught that course at Immaculata said forgiveness is like quitting cigarettes. Sometimes you have to do it over and over again. So it is a process. And she was just so great in presenting things in such a way that anybody could accept them and explaining the nuances of the differences between condoning and forgiving and other things that people often confuse. Ultimately, forgiveness is for the person being forgiven, it's for the person who's doing the forgiving. And it changed my outlook on life in general, on my relations with people especially people close to me. And it's still a tremendous factor in my life.

CO: Is it fair to say that that course changed the course of your life?

MB: It certainly did. It's very fair to say.

CO: And Peter, I think it's safe to say that interview and Michael's words changed your life, didn't it?

PK: Yeah, they did. I just got emotional just listening to it again. And, I mean, it's funny just listening to it in today's Times, 12 years later and realizing that that message is still more important than ever. And at the time I was listening to Michael and as I was listening to this interview I just wasn't expecting the way that it was going to unfold and the reaction that he was describing. And when I found out later in the interview that people called him a coward and had shot at him I just said ‘Hang on a second, the message that this man is saying is that the most courageous, brave choice I've ever heard somebody ever make.’ And it felt like the antidote to this escalating hatred that was happening in the world, and just listening to it again today and it's still the answer. It still remains the answer, it still remains more important than ever. So I’m just so struck by it.

CO: Do you remember the details the situation in which you listened to Michael in this interview?

PK: Yeah, I was I was driving along in my car — and Canadian musician spend a lot of time driving across Canada a lot of time listen to CBC and I would always listen As It Happens. And, you know, it's just one of those things it's on and you're listening to it and you're taking it in. But it's one of those interviews that I just kind of zeroed in on as I clued into what was being said. And to me the part that I was very moved just by Michael's reaction in and of itself, it was a very unexpected reaction. But what really kind of jolted me into action was the fact that, like I said, people shot at him and called him a coward and just put him through even more hell than I — I don't have a son, I don't know what it's like to lose one, let alone into the circumstances that Michael lost Nick. So when I found out that that people were doing that to him I just said that to me is just unconscionable and I need to do something about that and I need to somehow amplify his message. And yeah, the context of it was al-Zarqawi was this target and they were like ‘Hey, we got him and yay victory, mission accomplished,’ that kind of lingo. And they were using, I mean — I don't want to speak for Michael on this — but they were using Nick in the murder of al-Zarqawi as a reason to justify what they were doing.

CO: Revenge.

PK: Yeah.

CO: And the lyrics of your song, I'm just going to read the chorus then we're going to hear it later on so people know — they're not going to miss that. “So I guess I'm going to have to try forgiveness because man, you know, that's all that I've got left. My boy did not deserve this but neither do the rest. I guess I'm going to have to try forgiveness.” How did those words come to you?

PK: Those words came to me right away. I think I pulled over and wrote down those words. And then, as is often the case for me with writing, I kind of have the initial thing and then I knew I needed to just be with it because sometimes the sort of surface reaction is not deep enough and I immediately just cared about it so deeply and I and I knew that I was going to be singing in Michael's voice so I wanted to do it properly. It wasn't just about channeling my own feelings about it. I really wanted to amplify his voice. That was the goal. So I wrote those words down and then I actually ended up seeking out a copy of the interview that you guys had done. And I transcribed it, just so I could kind of practice putting words together in the way that Michael put words together, and really then just kind of worked from there and very carefully put it together.

CO: Michael, when you first heard the song, what was your reaction?

MB: I was overcome, I was totally overcome that in light of all the negative reactions that I had that someone would have such an understanding of what I meant and be so kind and so generous in his respect. It just overcame me. It still does every time I hear it.

CO: The two of you became friends, didn't you?

MB: We did. We still are.

PK: Yeah.

CO: What was the friendship based on? Was it just this moment or did you find you took it to a deeper place?

PK: Luke, who was Nick's next best friend, organized a concert and they created a scholarship in Nick's name they called it Berg-a-palooza and they invited me down to come perform at that concert. And so I went down to West Chester, Pennsylvania. And I stayed in guestroom Luke's house where he told me that Nick would have spent much time and then we did this concert. And I got to meet Michael, we went for coffee together in the afternoon and then I played this concert. And I stood on a stage, and in my view were Nick's friends and family and teachers and Michael and I got to play the song and my whole body shaking just thinking about that moment and how touched I felt to be able to do that and contribute in that way. Snd then several years in a row I went down and did that and then Michael and I were also invited to give a symposium on forgiveness at a college in Philadelphia in 2012 and we got to spend even more time together then, and I remember going for a long walk together in a park and just just enjoying our time together.

CO: I believe a generation difference, isn't there? I mean you would be closer to Nick's age.

PK: Yeah, yeah, I'm in my mid-30s, so I guess about the same as Nick would have been, is that right Michael?

MB: Nick would be 40, so pretty close.

PK: Five years younger, yeah.

CO: I’m was speaking with singer/songwriter Peter Katz, who wrote a song called Forgiveness inspired by an interview and As It Happens with Michael Berg, a man who is on the line from Norfolk, Virginia is someone who forgave his son's killer in Iraq. And I think we need to hear the song I think at this point. So I'm going to ask you to play it for us.

SOUNDCLIP

PETER KATZ SINGING:

You ask me to explain it

Well there’s everything and nothing to say

Some things they happen

And once they do they never go away

They tell you that this life is eye for eye

Well man you know I think that’s all a lie

Oh I will not stoke the fire of this fight, when I know it isn’t right

So I guess I’m going to have to try forgiveness

‘Cause man you know it’s all that I’ve got left

My boy did not deserve this, but neither do the rest

I guess I’m going to have to try forgiveness

You can call me a coward

Call me whatever you chose

Once you could have hurt me

But now, I’ve nothing left to lose

Go on and spite me ‘cause I will not curse his name

Tell me though I’m broken, I am to blame

Well go on, but I won’t participate, in spreading all this hate

So I guess I’m going to have to try forgiveness

‘Cause man you know it’s all that I’ve got left

My boy did not deserve this, but neither do the rest

I guess I’m going to have to try forgiveness

They shot at me for speaking out against this tired war

Said "How can you lose one life and not demand one more?"

Well what good will it do us in the end?

There’s nothing that should justify revenge

And I stand now here before you

Living out the hardest test

And still I swear the only answer is: …forgiveness

Forgiveness

Forgiveness

Oh you know we’ve got to try forgiveness

‘Cause man you know it’s all that we’ve got left

Our boys and girls are watching and they’ve put us to the test

Come let's show them forgiveness

MB: Wow.

CO: It’s fair to say there is not a dry eye in the house here. Michael, I don't know how you're dealing with that.

MB: It's very moving. Very, very moving. Peter has a real talent at touching on emotion.

CO: I think he is a real talent at feeling it. There's a depth to that that, yeah, can only come from an inspiration though Michael and you were the inspiration.

MB: I don’t know what to say.

PK: It’s true, Michael. When I heard your voice on the radio that day I just, I felt like you were one of the bravest people that I have ever heard and it's been such a pleasure to get to know you and call you my friend. And I really just, I feel honored that I get to be of service to your message. And in my career that was the very, very beginning of me as a singer/songwriter and kind of testing the waters. And that song really was the affirmation that I needed, the confirmation that I needed that there was a place for my voice, so it's also changed my life in many ways.

MB: Well, you gave me hope for the human race because, as I said before, so much of the reaction was so very, very negative. And on that day that Zarqawi died, the interview with CBC, I think was the only one that was not adversarial. Your reaction has to be the most positive reaction I ever got to anything I said. And you did it with such emotion and love. I mean, you can just feel it through the words and your voice.

CO: What do you think your son Nicholas would think of all these developments, from the song to our conversation, how would you respond?

MB: Well, I don't know because he was a very modest and shy, in a way, person. And he probably wouldn't like all the publicity or people saying good things about him, I guess. I mean, he was just that kind of a person and his political views very different from mine. But, I think I said this in the original interview, he once told me that although our views were different he was proud of me for getting out and expressing mine — as I was of him for doing what he believed in.

CO: Peter, I can tell you have something you want to say to Michael and I’m going to just ask you if you want to have the last word here?

PK: I just wanted to say to you, Michael, you know, I wish I could have gotten to know Nick, but I feel like as the son of somebody, I know that he would be really proud of you and what you've done. And I'm really proud of you and I also want you to know, Michael, that I don't see you as a God-figure or something and I've appreciated that you haven't tried to paint yourself as anything other than a human being. You've always made me feel like this is a real thing, it doesn't take other worldly powers to be able to make a choice like you made it. It just takes that tapping into your humanity and doing the hard thing. Your message of forgiveness has helped me through the last twelve years in an immense way, and that moment of hearing your voice on the radio that day and writing that song just fundamentally changed my life in a huge way. So thank you.

MB: You deserve all the success you've had. And I too wish that Nick could have been on that walk in Wissahickon Park that you and I took. That would have been great.

CO: I admire both of you and I appreciate so much to have a chance to speak with you have you both together. Thank you both.

MB: You're welcome.

PK: Bye, Michael.

MB: Bye, Peter.

JD: Peter Katz a singer/songwriter based in Toronto. He joined us here in the As It Happens studio. Michael Berg is an activist whose son Nicholas was killed by Al-Qaeda in Iraq. He spoke with us from a studio in Norfolk, Virginia. To see a photograph of Nicholas or to hear Peter`s song again go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Soft Guitar Strums]

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Part 3: Refugee camp, Painting ownership fight

Limousine crash

JD: They were trying to be irresponsible en route to a birthday party — it went horribly wrong. As you may have heard on the news, 20 people were killed this weekend after an SUV modified into a limo crashed in rural New York state. Authorities say the limo blew through a stop sign and ran over two pedestrians. Everyone inside the limo died — including four sisters. New York's governor, Andrew Cuomo, said today the limo should not have been on the road at all. Neither the driver nor the limo were properly licensed and the limousine had failed several safety inspections. Erin Vertucci and her husband were in that limo when it crashed. Here is Ms. Vertucci’s aunt Valerie Abeling.

SOUNDCLIP

VALERIE ABELING: Erin was one of the most beautiful souls. She loved her family. She loved everybody, everybody loved her. She had such a beautiful smile and just lit up the room when she came in, and had just been a real family, which was the most important thing in all of our lives, was being together. She was married to her husband just turned 30. They were married June 8th and we celebrated their wedding with all of our friends and family. And this is just a tragedy beyond comprehension for all of us, including all the other families who were affected by this.

JD: Valerie Abeling, aunt Erin Vertucci — one of the 20 people who died in the crash in rural New York.

[Music: Reversed Ambient Tones]

Moria refugee camp

Guest: Luca Fontana

JD: They've fled wars and violence. They travelled thousands of miles. They thought they'd be safe. But the asylum seekers who are now living at the Moria camp in Greece say they are not safe. They fear the fights break out in the long lines for food and water. They fear sexual violence, they fear raw sewage will make their children sick. A few have even told reporters and aid workers they wished they had died on their way to Moria. Those who monitor the overcrowded camp blame the European Unions tightened borders for the conditions at it. Luca Fontana works at the site with the NGO Doctors Without Borders. We reached them on the island of Lesbos in Greece.

CO: Mr. Fontana I know you have worked in many refugee camps around the world. How does this one in Greece compare?

LUCA FONTANA: This, indeed for me, is the worst place I've ever been. Not only compared with other refugee camps but even with a war zone or outbreaks, Ebola outbreaks where I've been working in the previous year.

CO: What makes this such a bad scene?

LF: The suffering. I've never seen so many people, thousands of people locked, stuck on this island due to a system, a systematic way to make people suffer. That's what make this place the worst for me — the lack of hope, the hope is taken away from families, men, women, children. There is no hope. That's what makes this place the worst.

CO: I want to ask you more about that, but maybe just to begin with just to describe the conditions of this camp, the numbers of people there and what do they have in order to live?

LF: Today, there are a bit less than a dozen people living in Moria camp. A camp that was built to host no more than 3,000. There is one toilet for 70 people, one shower for a hundred people. People have to wait and stand in line for hours to get their breakfast, stand in a line hours to get their lunch — and the same for the dinner. We have a pediatric clinic just in front of the camps and we're seeing that around 100-120 children per day — but it's still not enough.

CO: So it's not just that it’s so awful to be in this camp, it's that there is also no hope, as you mention. Why does this camp have such a high levels of despair?

LF: This is a part of the living conditions, thousands of people living in summer tents with no basic needs met. But it’s the long asylum procedures, people can wait up to two years on this island. Imagine living in such terrible conditions for periods as long as two years — and without knowing what can happen to you tomorrow.

CO: I understand that the majority of the people who are living there come from Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq — so all war zone countries.

LF: Yes, all of them have had traumatizing experiences in their entire country region. Many of those families that left Syria, Afghanistan have lost members of their families in their country of origin. Some of them on the journey and then once they arrived here they found themselves locked in the camp.

CO: You mentioned how many children you're caring for and I understand that, first of all, high levels of suicide and suicide attempts in this camp — including among the children you're treating, is that right?

LF: Yes, that's right. When we opened the pediatric clinics back in November we decided actually to target the most vulnerable population — children and pregnant women. Almost a quarter of our patients, children and unaccompanied minors, were included in the therapy group because of self-harming ideas, suicidal ideation or because they attempted suicide.

CO: This Camp, Moria, and the others on Lesbos, when we were covering this issue a couple of years ago these were transit points, where people didn't stay there for long periods of time. These were people coming in from these countries and going on further to Europe. How is it they've now become so stuck in these camps for so long?

LF: That is the consequence of the EU-Turkey deal that was signed back in March 2016 between the European Commission Turkey and Greece. So actually, this year, Turkey will represents the containment policy that obliged thousands of people to stay on Lesbos for years — and that's the problem. The main difference is what you just mentioned, before people who are coming here spending a couple of days or a week and then continuing their journey. Now, the same the same people are stuck here. The winter is quickly approaching now and are still thousands of people living in summer tents.

CO: This containment policy you mentioned that was agreed upon in 2016, it also came with a lot of money, didn't it? I mean, the European Union allocated almost two billion dollars to the Greek government to help with the asylum seekers so they wouldn't carry on into the rest of Europe, that they could be cared for and screened there to find out who is a legitimate refugee. How come these conditions exist when they have there's money coming from the EU?

LF: I don't know. I don't know where the money has been used. This is not our responsibility or my responsibility. What I can tell you is that here we're not seeing the that money used. People are just receiving blankets, some of them not even in tents, just a few blankets and they're asked to build a makeshift shelter. So what they can tell you is that that money is not being used here.

CO: Your solution that you're offering, you said you have to move a large number of these people out of Moria off of the island and get them in into mainland Greece. What kind of response have you had to that suggestion?

LF: I have to acknowledge that within the last few weeks that the Greek government moved out more than 2,000 people from Lesbos to the mainland. But the problem is that there are still more than 7,500 people stuck on this island. People will still keep coming. With the situation in Syria, this flow, it's not going to stop soon and this containment policy, it's not a long term solution or a sustainable solution.

CO: We will leave it there. Mr. Fontana it's a very, very tragic situation and I'm glad you're there and I appreciate you speaking with us. Thank you.

LF: Thanks a lot, Carol.

JD: Luca Fontana works for the NGO Doctors Without Borders at the Moria refugee camp in Lesbos, Greece. And that is where we reached him. For more on the story, including images of what life is like inside Moria, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Guitar Plucks]

Irving Oil Refinery explosion

Just after 10:00 today an explosion disrupted Thanksgiving morning in Saint John, New Brunswick. Then flames and black smoke came pouring out of the Irving Oil Refinery. Despite the holiday, 3,000 workers were working on site at the time of the blast. Several contractors were sent to the hospital with non-life threatening injuries. John Mayor Don Darling said quote “The fact no one was hurt seriously or killed during this incident is something to be very thankful for.” Here are several witnesses describing what they heard and saw this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

KEITH SEWELL: My wife and I were down in the basement and we heard the noise and the house moved. You know, I ran outside and ran down the back of the pathway behind the house along the Irving property. I could look right in and see the fire going way up and the smoke was really black.

MARK MELANSON: I mean, those stacks were a couple hundred feet in the air and the flames were exceeding the height of those stacks.

CHARLES CLONEY: I was coming across the causeway coming from over uptown and it shook my van and come across Causeway.

REPORTER: What was your reaction when that happened?

CC: It was like ‘Okay, what's going on here?’ I thought it was an earthquake. Until I looked up and seen the black smoke rolling. And it was like ‘No, this ain't no earthquake. This is an explosion somewhere.’ And then I thought maybe it might have been the smokestacks catching on fire, but no when I looked it was not the smokestacks catching on fire, it was a natural gas blowing. I don't feel safe. I feel that people breathing this in. I mean, you take into consideration — you look at all the kids that are in the city. Like, I mean, I got four grandkids and they're one to only two years of age. I mean, she don't need to bury this stuff in. This is crazy.

JD: That was Keith Sewell, Mark Melanson, and Charles Cloney describing this morning's explosion and the ensuing fire at the Irving Oil Refinery in Saint John, New Brunswick. According to local fire officials no air quality issues have been reported other than the lingering smoke from the fire.

[Music: Ambient Tones]

Sitting vs. Smoking

JD: ‘Sitting is the new smoking and it's time to quit,’ read the Globe and Mail headline from 2014. It was not the first nor was it the last, but Jeff Vallance and his colleagues say it is time to stop saying anything of the kind. Dr. Vallance is the Canada Research Chair in Health Promotion and chronic disease management. And after seeing one too many unfounded stories equating the health risks of sitting with smoking, he and his team decided to do a little actual science. So after digging through the latest research, they found that while sitting is not awesome, it just cannot compete with setting chemical laden leaves on fire and then sucking their cancer causing smoke into your lungs. So if you sit a lot, which scientists say is anything more than eight hours a day, the risk of coming down with cancer diabetes or cardiovascular disease goes up by 10 or 20 per cent compared to someone whoss posterior is more active. Smoking on the other hand, makes you ten times more likely to get say lung cancer. And that's just from smoking a few each day. So make it a couple of packs and you're 40 times as likely to have the cells inside your lungs growing in ways that you will not like. As Dr. Vallance says quote “The magnitude of those associations are not even in the same ballpark,” unquote. So there you have it, the new smoking is still smoking — claims to the contrary don't have a leg to stand on.

[Music: Ambient Tones]

Painting ownership fight

Guest: Cédric Fischer

JD: When wealthy American art collectors bought the Impressionist painting La Cueillette back in 1995 they say they didn't know its provenance. But who has the right to own the artwork by Camille Pissarro is now very much at the heart of a bitter legal battle in France's highest courts. Last week, an appeals court upheld a ruling that the painting known as Picking Peas in English, must be returned to the descendants of its original owners Simon Bauer. He was a Jewish French businessman who had his art collection seized by the Vichy government during the Second World War. The American art collectors are appealing. Cédric Fischer is a lawyer representing the Bauer family. We reached him in Paris.

CO: Mr. Fischer, how did your clients, the Bauer family, how did they find this Pissarro painting?

CEDRIC FISCHER: During last year Jean-Jacques Bauer was informed that during an exhibition in the museum in Paris, the Musée Marmottan, three paintings coming from the collection of Simon Bauer would be exhibited to the public. Two of the three paintings were well known by the Bauer family and have been recovered after World War Two. But one painting was still a stolen piece of art. And this time we began to establish a strategy in order to recover this painting.

CO: And this painting was owned at that time, legally owned, I guess, by Bruce and Robbie Toll, wealthy art collectors in the states, right?

CF: The issue that the French court solved — the French Court of Appeals — decided that regarding a very specific law, the Toll family didn't own legally the painting, despite Mr. and Mrs. Toll purchasing this painting. But there is a very specific French law, and not only French law, that state that it's not legal to hold a looted piece of art.

CO: They bought the painting, the Tolls say they had no idea that the painting had been stolen by the Nazis when they purchased La Cueillette, this painting by Pissarro. They paid 800,000 U.S. dollars for the painting in New York in 1995. What are they saying now? Why are they say still saying ‘Well it's ours?’

CF: I am sure that when you buy such painting with a very high price you are try to be aware of any information related to the painting. I don't know what Mr. and Mrs. Toll have done in 1995, but I do believe that Christie’s job was to examine what was your origin of the painting. And the painting, La Cueillette, was listed on an official document drafted after that year after World War II in 1947 in French, Russian, English and German. The list of property removed for France during the war and on the same list, the painting, the Picking of Peas painting is listed and clearly indicated as looted.

CO: So you're saying that, basically, if the Tolls, this couple, can say that they didn't know the Christie's Auction House should have known would have known could have known that this was stolen if they had done what they should do to study the provenance of the work of art, right?

CF: Yes. From my point of view and from the point of view of the Bauer family, it's absolutely correct.

CO: What does it mean to the Bauer family to get it back?

CF: Actually there are 18 at the time being — grandson, grand-grandson, grand-grand-grandson, or grand-grand-granddaughter of Simon Bauer. Only Jean-Jacques Bauer, who is 90, knew his grandfather and has been in the Simon Bauer’s apartment and had the picture in mind of the apartment of all the paintings on the walls. And obviously for him it's very good decision and for all the family it's also very important because it is the link, the paintings are a link between each member of the family.

CO: There's one curious part of this and that's that the Toll family themselves, these are art collectors but they're also patrons of Jewish history, of the Holocaust museums around the world, they are Jewish themselves. Does it seem curious to you that they could have this painting in their collection, hanging on their wall knowing that it was stolen by Nazis and then the person who owned it was nearly was sent to a death camp? How do you think you could do that and look at this work of art on your wall?

CF: I’m afraid Mr. and Mrs. Toll don't fully understand what so occurred in Europe, and especially in France.

CO: How could they not know, they’re patrons of the…?

CF: They have declared that the French history is not their concern. Mr. Toll went to Paris in order to attend to the hearings and he had a discussion with Jean-Jacques Bauer. My feeling, maybe it’s a personal feeling, but my feeling is that he has a lot a lot of difficulty to understand what the Bauer family feels about this very difficult period. And Jean-Jacques Bauer knew this period. He remembers when his father was arrested by the Germans and the French police, and he remembers the platform of the railway station when he saw your father going into the train to Auschwitz.

CO: Well, it's astonishing. Just finally, say that the Tolls don't get the painting back — and it seems like they won't — will Christie's Auction have to compensate them, will they get their money back?

CF: Mr. and Mrs. Toll have, legally, the opportunity to sue Christie and to ask for compensation. But I don't know why they never take this possibility and they never claim against Christie.

CO: Well, we'll leave it there. Mr. Fischer, thank you so much for speaking with us.

CF: Thank you very much.

JD: That was Cédric Fischer the lawyer representing members of the Bauer family. He was in Paris.

[Music: Whimsical Strings]

AIH 50^th:Theme Song Challenge

JD: All we want is for you to toot your own horn — maybe by being a horn, or a flute. As we celebrate our 50^th Anniversary we are asking you to record a video of yourself performing the As It Happens theme song. Send it to us. If you follow us on Twitter you may have seen my own take on the theme, which I recorded while strutting around the CBC Broadcasting Centre. Humiliating, but here's part of what that video sounds like for inspiration.

SOUNDCLIP

JD: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas and this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JEFF SINGING THEME SONG

JD: All right, well, I don't know how anyone can top that but you could try. You should try. Please try. Here's another entry we received in the wee hours of the morning from Castleton, Ontario's Ken Tate.

SOUNDCLIP

KEN TATE: All right, Carol and Jeff, here you go. It's 10 after 1:00 in the morning. Just got home from work. I listen to you from midnight to 1:00 on the way home from work. And you want the theme song played, or that tune played on something. I’ll play it for you here on the bagpipes at quarter after 1:00 in the morning a.

[KEN PLAYING AS IT HAPPENS THEME ON THE BAGPIPES]

KT: There you are. Good night. Take care.

JD: Ken Tate rom Castleton, Ontario with his version of the As It Happens theme song. And if you would like to send us your performance, all the details of the challenge are on our website, that, of course: www.cbc.ca/aih. The challenge deadline is October 21st. And our favourite submissions will receive some exclusive 50^th Anniversary As It Happens swag.

French fake news

JD: There is deep concern about the spread of fake news. It is a scourge, it is everywhere and we need to stamp it out. And instead call it information fallacieuse. The individual members of France's Commission or the Enrichment of the French Language, or CELF, are probably as concerned as anyone about the actual misinformation invading our news feeds these days. But, as a body, the Commission is much more concerned about the invasion of English words. So when CELF says it wants to stamp out fake news, it means stamp out the Anglo phrase not the phenomenon. Now language is a difficult thing to police. No one wants to hear a middle-aged man say something gave them ‘all the feels’ — but they do. And we can't stop them. To use another phrase we can't seem to stop people from saying — it is what it is. And yet the commission's job is to try to save the French language from being adulterated by foreign words. So it is offering Francophones who use the English phrase ‘fake news’ some alternatives. I mentioned the first one which appeared in a recent issue of a French government gazette. The beautiful sounding, but maybe too long — information fallacieuse, fallacious information. The CELF also recommended information fausse and nouvelle fausse — false information or false news. All of which are little fancy pants, aren't they? So the commission had one more, let's say hipper recommendation — infox. Now that one is a combination of the words information and intoxication and it does have that ‘fake news’ brevity. But slang has its own life. You can't make people use words. For a phrase to catch on it has to have that — what's the English expression? Oh, je ne sais quoi.

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Oct. 8, 2018 episode transcript

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