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The AIH Transcript for September 18, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight…

CO: History repeats itself with her story. Allegations of sexual assault have put Judge Brett Kavanaugh’s confirmation to the U.S. Supreme Court on hold, and recalled the 1991 case of Anita Hill vs. Judge Clarence Thomas.

JD: Griller warfare. With the race for the U.S. Senate heating up in a Texas, Republican incumbent Ted Cruz is trying to rake Democratic upstart Beto O'Rourke over the coals on one surprising issue — barbecue.

CO: Pass or fail, fail. The front runner in Quebec's election campaign wants the language and values test for immigrants. Our guest wonders how that would have changed his grandparents lives and his.

JD: Vacuum pact. A Japanese billionaire makes a deal to book all the seats on a trip into space. But not everyone is over the moon about its plans for Space X's first tourist flight around the moon.

CO: A neat diversion, if you've got the stomachs for it. And McGill's new medical museum does — along with other body parts and bones — for anyone keen to enter the innard sanctum.

JD: And…we're dating ourselves but we helped others date, too. Turns out back in the 1970s this show actually ran a lonely hearts club. And tonight, we'll speak with a listener who got a ring after giving us one. As It Happens: The Tuesday Edition. Radio that played with matches when it was a kid.

[Music: Theme]

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Part 1: Kavanaugh hearing, Quebec election: immigration, AIH 50th Lonely Hearts Club

Kavanaugh hearing

Guest: Pat Schroeder

JD: The confirmation of Judge Brett Kavanaugh is suddenly on hold. Christine Blasey Ford, who has accused the judge of sexual assault, has been called to the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee. She and the judge — who has denied the allegations — are both scheduled to testify in Washington on Monday. If it goes forward the hearing will come almost exactly 27 years after Anita Hill's testimony at Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas’ confirmation — and that historic hearing will loom large over this one. Pat Schroeder was among the group of congresswomen who demanded the Senate Judiciary Committee hear from Anita Hill in 1991. Ms. Schroeder has since retired from public office, but we reached her in Celebration, Florida.

CO: Ms. Schroeder, does this feel like a rerun of Anita Hill story 27 years ago?

PAT SCHROEDER: Well, there's a lot of déjà vu in all of this. I must say, it seems very similar except because of the Anita Hill experience, I think even the senators who are slow learners focus on the fact they better not say she can't even show up.

CO: And that's what happened. You had a real struggle to get Anita Hill before that Senate Judiciary Committee. I mean, so we see that the committee is moving fairly quickly on seeing that Christine Blasey Ford appears, though I know there's still some doubts and some things to work out. How difficult was it to get Anita Hill before that committee?

PS: Well, it was almost impossible, you know. A group of us walked over because every two Tuesday I believe it was, all the Democratic senators had lunch together. And we went over knocked on the door to protest and say that she should be allowed to testify. And we were told they didn't let strangers into the lunch. So we nicely told them we had about 15 television cameras follow this if they'd like to explain how we’re strangers. And the majority leader then said ‘No, no come back at 2:00 o'clock to my office and we’ll talk. And he did lean on the chairman, who was then Joe Biden, and say you have to let this woman testify. You’ve got to re-open the hearing. So he did, but there were three other women that they didn't listen to and they just absolutely ravaged Anita. Even the ones that I thought were my heroes turned into real chumps. They sat there and let many Republicans just tear her apart. And you had to keep thinking that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to put this poor woman in front of all these characters.

CO: The picture of you and the other women taking the steps of Congress trying to go to that lunch and explain things is legendary. But what's most interesting is that you mentioned how these senators just excoriated Anita Hill. What was disturbing, I understand, was that Joe Biden, who was the committee chairman, wasn't — he didn't take it seriously, did he?

PS: I don't think he did. And when we confronted him he was very angry that he had to reopen the hearing. He told us that we didn't understand the rules of the Senate, that he had in the gym promised Senator Danforth that he would move this very rapidly. And so that's what he was doing. And were kind of like ‘You made a promise in the gym, to one guy, about putting someone on the bench for a lifetime?’ I mean, it's really crazy but that's what he said they did in the Senate. When they gave their word they had to stay with their word.

CO: Those who watched at that time in 1991, and one can never forget seeing how poised and calm Anita Hill was as she talked about the things that Clarence Thomas had done — that he'd asked her out, that he'd talked about sex at work. Described pornography he had seen about sex with animals and rape. And the most — the image that no one can ever forget — is when he accused someone of putting a pubic hair on his can of Coke — and the whole thing was just so disturbing with details you think you can't make this stuff up. So what was it that was so discounted about Anita Hill? Why did they not believe her?

PS: I'm not really sure I know why they didn't believe her. I think maybe you'd have to ask them. To me it was mind boggling. Here was this incredible talented African-American woman who had grown up in a very conservative home, her parents had come, were sitting behind her. They had been Baptists, they had been really straight arrows. And here they were just tearing her apart. I think if I had been an African-American I would have really wondered about what kind of justice there was for African-Americans in the Senate. Obviously women were wondering the same thing.

CO: At the time, one of the senators, Orrin Hatch, said that Ms. Hill, Anita Hill was just confused. He’s saying the same senators saying the same thing about Christine Blasey Ford. So how much has changed in 27 years?

PS: Well, obviously Orrin Hatch is still there, and he apparently hasn't learned very much. But they also have a president they've all been following 24/7, and it's a president whose response to what do you do if a woman accused you of something he says ‘deny, deny, deny.’ So that seems to be the mantra of that side of the aisle in the Senate. On the other hand, there are some that are breaking away and certainly on the Democratic side, we have, especially two women on the committee, that were both prosecutors. And my guess is they are really going to tear into these guys. There isn't going to be silence when they say things like that out loud in a hearing.

CO: And what is it going to be like for Christine Blasey Ford in your view?

PS: Well, bless her heart. It's got to be awful. As I say, watching Anita Hill I kept thinking ‘Oh my, maybe we made such a mistake talking her into going forward,’ because they were just brutal. They were absolutely brutal and she paid for it. I mean, she ended up having to leave Oklahoma, and her whole life she was tainted by that. It was awful. So let's hope that that won't happen. She's very brave.

CO: Just finally, if the committee decides that they're going to not consider her testimony or that we find that Judge Kavanaugh is approved, then what do you make of the idea that perhaps we'll see Clarence Thomas and Brett Kavanaugh — two men both accused of sexual misconduct — sitting in the Supreme Court of the United States?

PS: To me it's very, very depressing, obviously. And let's hope that does not happen. I think there will be enough doubt hopefully. And also the fact that if people start to believe this did happen, which many of us do, then his lying under oath that it never happened, you know, that's also a disqualifier. So there's lots of issues here.

CO: And we will be watching. Ms. Schroeder, I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

PS: Thank you very much. And I hope things are better up North.

[LAUGHTER]

JD: Pat Schroeder is a former Democratic congresswoman. We reached her in Celebration, Florida. To see a photograph of Ms. Schroeder and her fellow Congresswomen marching to the Senate on behalf of Anita Hill back in 1991, check out our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Piano]

Quebec election: immigration

Guest: Antonia Sciascia

JD: Immigration is becoming the issue that could make or break the Quebec election for François Legault. With less than two weeks to go Monsieur François Legault’s upstart CAQ is out in front. But that has made that party a target for everyone else. Here is Liberal leader Philippe Couillard at last night's English language debate, questioning Monsieur Legault’s proposal to subject immigrants to values and French language tests.

SOUNDCLIP

PHILIPPE COUILLARD: I've never heard a political leader in Quebec, ever recommend not only diminishing the number of immigrants we take in, but proposing expulsion tests for immigrants, which made them very, very frightened, today. They are frightened by what the CAQ is proposing. They will submit them to value testing, which nobody knows what it's about and a French test. And I asked him about a family the other day, what they would do with the dad, the father flunks his exam and he couldn't answer.

JD: That Liberal leader Philippe Couillard and the CAQ’s François Legault was more than willing to defend his proposal.

SOUNDCLIP

FRANCOIS LEGAULT: Our position is clear. What we say is that we better receive forty thousand, have a better integration, and the only thing we say, like we have in many European countries have a test of French and a test of values in the first three years. It's reasonable. It's done in other countries.

PC: They don’t expel them.

FL: Why is Mr. Lisée and Mr. Couillard are saying it's scandalous. We have that in Europe.

JD: That was CAQ leader, Francois Legault, the frontrunner in the Quebec election. Mr. Legault’s proposed tests have some people wondering whether he understands what immigrants go through or not, and what they have to contribute. Antonio Sciascia is a lawyer whose parents came to Canada in the 50s. We reached Mr. Sciascia in Montreal.

CO: Mr. Sciascia if you had been able to jump on stage last night and talk to these two leaders, what would you have said?

ANTONIA SCIASCIA: Basically, I would have said that it's wrong, that it's really too bad that the future premier would have such a policy. It's really insulting to immigrants. I mean, I look at my own case. If that policy would have been in effect when my family immigrated to Canada I would not be speaking to you right now on the phone because my parents did not learn French in the first three years. As a matter of fact, they didn't learn French properly enough to pass the test after maybe 40 50 years they were here.

CO: So if Monsieur Legault was the premier then, if CAQ, the party had been in power in the 1950s your dad would have been sent home.

AS: Absolutely. What would have happened to us? I mean, I was only eleven years old then. What would have happened to my other siblings? What would have happened to my mother? I mean, it simply does not make sense. The proof is there. Immigrants have well integrated into this country. We have proved it. And not only the Italian community, look at all the other communities — the Greek, the Jewish community. They have all integrated they all speak at least two languages, if not three languages, and it simply does not make any sense.

CO: And what would have happened to Quebec because these immigrants you're referring to, so many of them, the contribution was huge and in many respects. I mean we look at the things that were built, I mean, the canals, the bridges, the buildings that the construction workers that were Irish and Italian, and the labour that Quebec had that needed it to build its society, they wouldn't have had that. So how different do you think Quebec would have been if they were not allowing — if they were sending immigrants home because they didn't speak French?

AS: Look it would have been this terrible tragedy. We would not have a so well-developed country as we have today, in all aspects, not only the building of roads and buildings and train rails — but the cultural diversity that we have in this country. It's a richness, it's a plus for our society.

CO: So if this law had been there they would not have made that contribution.

AS: Absolutely not. How could they?

CO: What's your understanding of this test and how it would actually work? He's saying that — we understand that after 3 years of an immigrant arriving they'll have to take this French test and the values test as well. And we don't know the values they're being tested for. If they fail they'll be deported.

AS: The value test didn't go too well with the Parti Québécois, they did not get anywhere with that. And I really don't know what it means. I mean, if you look at the communities that have been here for 20, 30, 50 years — they have adopted the Canadian values. So how can you say now that you are going to give value tests to the new immigrants coming to this country when the proof is already there. They have already proved that they integrate very well into the Canadian or Quebec society.

CO: Why do you think that that Mr. Legault and the CAQ is making this appeal? Why do you think that he believes somehow that this is something that could get them elected?

AS: Well, I think they're appealing to different sector of the population. Most likely the suburban population that is a bit detached from the new immigrant communities that are coming into Quebec and Canada. And I urge them to reassess their thinking about immigrants because immigrants, they bring in so much more when they come to this country. They help the economy, they contribute to the development of our society. So if it is a political policy it's certainly not well received by the immigrants who have established themselves here. I mean, this is really upsetting.

CO: This debate about immigrants and limiting the numbers and saying that assimilation has failed in Quebec. What kind of atmosphere is that creating?

AS: Well look, assimilation is not something that immigrants want. We want to integrate into society, but at the same time, we want to keep our origins, our culture — and that does not prevent the immigrants from adopting the values of the new society.

CO: If an immigrant, a newcomer to Quebec had just arrived during this election and following this debate, what do you think it's like for them right now?

AS: Well, it's troubling to say the least. They would feel uncertain of the future. It would not — it's not really a way to receive newly arrived immigrants. I don't think they would feel very happy.

CO: All right, we'll be following this election. Mr. Sciascia, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AS: Thank you.

JD: Antonio Sciascia is a lawyer and the head of the Quebec branch of the National Congress of Italian Canadians. We reached Mr. Sciascia in Montreal.

[Music: Ambient Drums]

AIH 50th Lonely Hearts Club

Guest: Karen Craigue

JD: Today there is a wealth of options — Tinder, OkCupid, the ever popular eHarmony. Back in the 70s singles looking to mingle had fewer options. Thankfully though, because we are always on the cutting edge, As It Happens offered the Lonely Hearts Club. Quite frankly, we were as surprised as you are. Until last week we — those of us working here now — actually had no idea that this segment ever existed on this program. But then, listener Karen Craigue left this comment on our Facebook page quote “Met my husband via As It Happens in late 1975. He and a buddy were on one of your Lonely Hearts Club segments. Long story short, we're still together,” unquote. So to hear the long and short of that story — and to find out what the AIH Lonely Hearts Club was, we called up Ms. Craigue. And we reached her in Perth, Ontario.

CO: Karen, just take us back to 1973. How did you first hear about the As It Happens Lonely Hearts segment?

KAREN CRAIGUE: The mother of a good friend of mine knew that I was going to leave Toronto and she heard the segment and she thought these guys sound interesting. And so she passed the information to me. I'm a strong believer in fate and I thought ‘Why not?’

CO: But you had you didn't listen to As It Happens yourself, you heard you heard it.

KC: I always listen to As It Happens but I didn't hear that one.

CO: So we learned ourselves because of your call that we had these classifieds on As It Happens all those years ago. So what did you learn about how you get into the Lonely Hearts Club?

KC: I just thought ‘Okay, I’d like to write to these fellows,’ and phoned CBC to get an address. As I said, I hadn't heard them. But I just thought ‘Oh, this is an interesting way to get out of the city,’ you know, all kinds of possibilities.

CO: But it was just your friend's mom who told you about this nice sounding bachelor was who was on CBC Radio.

KC: That's right. And I trusted her implicitly. So I thought ‘Oh she wouldn't steer me wrong.’

KC: Well now, you know what, you've never heard it, right — the actual tape, other message. And neither have I. So you know what? I think we should both have a listen. This is August 14th 1975 from our archives and the original ad.

SOUNDCLIP

MARY COOPER: Farmers in the valley near McBride, British Columbia are looking for brides. Here's Bob Crane to tell us about.

BOB CRAIGUE I'm one of about 20 single men in the McBride B.C. area that have small farms in the country. Most of us have obtained all our goals except to find the proper woman who would our country life and lots of good old-fashioned hard work. Any ladies between 22 to 30, with or without children, interested in living the good life in the mountains, should write to me, Bob Craigue, Dunster B.C. and I'll give all the extra replies to the other single men in the valley.

MC: Keep listening for more classifieds next week. Personally yours, Mary Cooper.

CO: Oh my gosh, that is so vintage.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: Okay, so that's Bob. That's your Bob.

MC: Yeah, that's my Bob.

CO: So you haven't heard this, Bob Craigue — now your husband, right?

MC: Yeah, yeah. And we’ve been married 41 years.

CO: When you hear that what is your reaction?

MC: I'm not surprised at all. I guess maybe I was expecting something very similar. Not surprised.

CO: He wasn't just advertising for himself, but a whole bunch of men who were looking for brides.

MC: I know there was a few of them. Well, I think at that time a lot of the young single women were — if they were growing up there, they were more looking to get out of Dodge, so to spoeak. They wanted to go to the big city.

CO: Bob was offering the good life for a proper woman — ladies between 22 and 30 who would give McBride B.C. and be on a farm. So tell us about the courtship? Did you immediately go out there? Did you talk to him a bit before you did?

MC: We talked on the phone a few times and we wrote back and forth a few times, and then that October I flew out to Edmonton, took the bus. He picked me up on the Highway 16 at the Dunster turn off and I spent 10 days there. I thought ‘Okay, this guy's alright.’ And the beautiful valley — absolutely stunning place. So, I mean, there was no question about what if anyone would ever want to live there. That's for sure. He had built his own A-frame. It was a 400 square foot A-frame with an outhouse and a hand pump in the kitchen and a beautiful creek running right by the front of the house. He built a barn, he had a few animals and a cat and chickens. And I thought ‘Boy, this is pretty nice here.’ So in the end the March of ‘76 I moved out there.

CO: Now you're 26 at that time, right?

MC: Yeah.

CO: And what did your friends and your family think when you said that you going to go all the way out to B.C., live on a farm where you had a hand pump inside, an outhouse and that you were going to go get hitched to this guy you'd heard on the radio? I mean, what did they say?

MC: We weren't getting hitched yet. It took a year because, you know, we had to make sure that we're gonna work out well together. But my friends were excited for me. I worked at the Eaton’s photography studio and one of the photographers I worked with didn't think I would last so we made liars out of them. And I made up a story for my parents.

CO: What?

MC: I didn't want to freak them out.

CO: What did you tell them?

MC: I told a couple of my cousins. Oh I said I'd met this fellow and I was just gonna go out and see what the west was like. I didn't tell them how I met him. That was the only part that wasn’t true. So I think maybe I just told him I'd met him through friends. Well, I guess I sort of did.

CO: Yeah, yeah. And so, I mean, now we're talking 43 years later, we can get to the truth, right?

[LAUGHTER]

MC: Oh, I mean, obviously they filled in not that long after. And then every once in a while, you know, perhaps people we meet will go ‘So how did you two meet?’ It comes up in conversations at times and I’ll go ‘Well,’ and then Bob lets me tell the story.

CO: What’s story you tell? What’s your shorthand version of all this?

MC: I just, you know, we met through As It Happens basically and most people — I don't think of anyone that has gone ‘Oh you had to be crazy,’ It was all ‘Oh, that's pretty cool.’

CO: It is pretty cool for us too.

MC: A precursor of the computer dating, I guess, but more face to face.

CO: And on that, I mean, the clip you heard from Bob back there in 1975 talking about looking for a proper woman, looking for ladies who want to live the good life. If you heard that today would you drop everything and run out and get married to Bob?

MC: Well, I already have Bob. So of course I would.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: So that would still work for you?

MC: Yeah. Oh, I mean, in hindsight I learned so many skills and did so many cool things and had two wonderful kids and now three wonderful grand kids. Of course I would.

CO: And without As It Happens you wouldn’t have met Bob and none of this would have happened.

MC: That's right. We wouldn't be talking.

CO: We are indeed under the As It Happens. And it's just — I'm so glad you called and told us, we never would have known about this but it really is fun and I hope you have many, many more happy years together with your husband and your kids.

MC: Thank you so much for digging up the original clip.

CO: It was our pleasure. We'll send it to you so you’ve got a copy of it.

MC: Thank you very much.

CO: Thanks, Karen. Take care.

MC: You too.

JD: Karen Craigue met her husband Bob Craigue through the As It Happens Lonely Hearts Club back in 1975. We reached Ms. Craigue in Perth, Ontario and if you'd like to listen to that interview again or share it, it is on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Laidback Guitar Strums]

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Part 2: Texas 'BBQ ban',

Texas 'BBQ ban'

Guest: Jonathan Tilove

JD: The Senate race in Texas between incumbent Ted Cruz and his Democrat opponent Beto O'Rourke was already heated, so to speak. Earlier this week however, Senator Cruz turned it up a notch by suggesting that his opponent would ban barbecue. Those are fighting words in the state where everything is bigger because there aren't many things Texans love more than barbecue. Now of course Mr. O'Rourke has no plans to mess with anyone's grillin’ but Senator Cruz couldn't resist the opportunity when PETA activists served up barbecued tofu in front of one of his town halls. Jonathan Tilove is the chief political writer at the Austin American Statesman. We reached him in Austin.

CO: Jonathan, why would Ted Cruz play the barbecue card? I mean what has it come to?

JONATHAN TILOVE: Oh, well that barbecue card makes perfect sense. Any time you can, in Texas, align yourself in any way with barbecue and especially if you're able to somehow convince Texans that the man winning against you is somehow an enemy a barbecue, or not going to protect barbecue — That's a golden ticket. This one was kind of a stretch but, you know, I think he got his point across using humour with a with a purpose.

CO: Well, does anyone actually believe, in Texas, that Beto O’Rourke would ban barbecue?

JT: I don't think so. But one never knows. And I think the point here is that by saying something a little bit outlandish, or a lot outlandish with humour, it gives Cruz a certain deniability. At the same time he's able to tweet that, you know, if you don't elect me barbecue will be in danger. And I think that plants a seed. I mean, his whole purpose here is to indicate that he — even though as you all know he's originally from Canada — is the real Texan in the race, and that Beto O’Rourke, while an attractive candidate doesn't really understand Texas values — whether it's the importance of a strong border or gun ownership or of capitalism or of real meat barbecue as opposed to tofu. So it is a tofu strawman but I think it's an effective way to communicate something even if it's not literally true. Especially if it’s not literally true.

CO: Can you give us the background as to why this — why tofu-gate entered this race?

JT: I don’t know if it’s reached ‘gate’ proportions yet, but the reason it happened was a week ago Saturday at an appearance in outside Houston, Cruz said that there's outside money pouring in to California to help elect Beto O’Rourke and to bring California values to Texas. Then he ticked off tofu, silicone, and dyed hair. And subsequently a week later, this past Saturday, he was at a restaurant which didn't serve tofu but there were some demonstrators, four of them from the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, who were there with signs suggesting that tofu was bipartisan and Republicans eat tofu too and offering free samples of barbecue tofu. They were very pleasant. They were smiling. They were not hostile at all, but Cruz took advantage of it to open up his remarks before this, you know, intense crowd of supporters by suggesting that PETA was out there threatening the future of meat barbecue and that if they elected Beto they were risking the Texans national food. And so, you know, he obviously liked the line and got good response and then he tweeted subsequently something suggesting that yes, in fact, a Democratic victory would imperil barbecue. Obviously not true, but not necessarily ineffective.

CO: How desperate is Mr. Cruz at this point that he would play the barbecue card?

JT: I don't think this is necessarily desperation. I think this is — he is looking for every cultural wedge he can find between him and O'Rourke. And I think there's been much made of the fact that this is a truly competitive Senate race and that O’Rourke’s a very kind of ingratiating character and Cruz has built a reputation as less ingratiating. But a new poll today showed him — a Quinnipiac poll showed Cruz up by 9 points, which was more than the two or three points previous polls showed. But it's because they're looking at the likely turnout and not all registered voters. So I think he's still fairly confident but, you know, he's not one to leave any stone unturned. And I think anything that just kind of paints his opponent as an alien figure in Texas cultural norms is useful to him .

CO: And has Beto O’Rourke played the Canada card against Ted Cruz? I mean, if it's authenticity and genuineness in Texas, how does that play?

JT: Well, I think, you know, he hasn't and he's he rarely ever mentions Cruz, he rarely ever mentions Trump. His persona, his approach is to be the person who's going to tone down the rhetoric, who's going to appeal across party lines. He famously went across country on a road trip with a Republican member of Congress and livestreamed the whole thing, which is sort of how he broke through to kind of a national audience and indicated that he could be on camera for a long stretches and be an attractive person to watch. So I think that no, he's not rising to that bait. They will have three debates beginning Friday. It's going to be harder to avoid direct engagement. But his whole thing is a ‘I'm not about conflict. I'm about trying to listen to everybody.’ He's gone to all to 254 counties in Texas with an eye to trying to reach people who've never met a Democrat — or certainly not a Democratic candidate before.

CO: All right, well we'll be watching to see how our Canadian candidate does in Texas.

JT: Are people there swelling with pride?

[LAUGHTER]

CO: Well, barbecues very big here.

JT: They appreciate his efforts to keep it from becoming an issue in Canada.

CO: Very much so, very important to stand up for barbecue. Jonathan, thanks.

JT: Thanks a lot.

JD: Jonathan Tilove is chief political writer at the Austin American Statesman. We reached him in Austin. And as Carol mentioned, of course, Ted Cruz was born in Calgary — a city where barbecue is nearly as sacrosanct as it is in Texas — perhaps more — no, definitely more.

[Music: Drums]

Bryan Adams Parliament Hill

JD: Bryan Adams rocked Parliament Hill today. And if you think rocked is too strong a word for the Canadian singer-songwriter then you're going to have to explain yourself to the members of House of Commons Heritage Committee. Question after question came with preambles about concerts attended and minds blown by his powerful music. Mr. Adams however, did not let that stop him from delivering a serious message. He wants Canada's copyright law changed to limit publishers control over an artist's work. At this point, publishers retain the rights for 25 years after the artist is dead. Mr. Adams wants artists to be able to regain control 25 years after they first signed the rights over. Here is some of what he had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

BRYAN ADAMS: I mean, when I first discovered that this was in existence I just was a little bit puzzled. I couldn't understand why this would — why anyone would even want to create something that was so difficult for songwriters and composers and authors. Why would you want to limit their creativity on any level? You know, it's important that that everybody understands that in some cases some people may only create one or two things in their lives. They might write Catcher In The Rye, and that's the only thing they ever do in their whole lives. But it's such an influential and powerful piece, influencing so many other people and other writers, and inspiring people, that it's important that they're control of it is is in their destiny eventually. I mean, when you when you sign something over as a young writer like myself when I was 16 or 15 when I signed my first songs over to another publisher — you know, I was just happy to pay my rent. That's it. You know, people say to me: What is the single most exciting thing that ever happened in your career? I can tell you, the day that I could pay my rent, you know, I was grateful. I still am. In fact, when I signed my first contract it was for one dollar. Because legally in Canada to make a contract happen you have to have a dollar. And after a couple of years I said to the president of the record company I said ‘You know, I signed a contract for one dollar, you never sent it.’ He said ‘I'll send it.’ And I've got it on my wall. I've got the one dollar check, I never cashed it. But, I mean, that's what it comes down to. You sign for a pittance in the beginning. If you're lucky and if you have a machine behind you, you can create a lot of interest. And yes, social media is a very big aspect for artists these days. But there's no guarantees, and there's no guarantees in the long term how long you're going to be there. I've had a really blessed career. And I thank the Canadian public for that, but I'm one of the lucky. I'm one of the few, I’m one of the few, and so I'm here — without asking any of my colleagues in the business what their opinions are on this — I've come up here on my own to say I think we can do better in Canada.

JD: Bryan Adams appearing before the House Commons Heritage Committee today.

[Music: Rhythmic Beeps]

Space X tourist

Guest: Christian Davenport

JD: Last night at Space X headquarters Japanese billionaire Yusaku Maezawa made an announcement.

SOUNDCLIP

YUSAKU MAEZAWA: Finally I can say is that I choose to go to the Moon.

JD: Mr. Maezawa shared his plans to purchase all the seats on Space X's first tourist flight around the Moon, and his hope to take artists along with him. Christian Davenport was following yesterday's event, and he has some questions about just how practical this plan is. Mr. Davenport is with The Washington Post. He is the author of the The Space Barons: Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and the Quest to Colonize the Cosmos. We reached Christian Davenport in Washington, D.C.

CO: Christian, we just heard a bit of Mr. Maezawa and his excitement in that clip. What more did he say about his trip?

CHRISTIAN DAVENPORT: Well, he wants to go to the Moon, not just by himself but to bring six to eight artists along with him. And the idea is that a space trip, a lunar orbit trip, he wants to inspire them and to inspire their works. And he said, you know, during this press conference with you Elon Musk, he said ‘Imagine if Picasso or Andy Warhol or any of these great artists had been to space, how that could have informed and influenced their art and their creative juices?’ So that's what he wants to do.

CO: Elon Musk, said that Mr. Maezawa had made a quote “significant deposit” on his trip. Do you have any idea how much this is going to cost?

CD: We don't know how much it costs. They haven't said. But I think it's fair to estimate this at tens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars. I mean, particularly if he's paying for the entire spacecraft and having you know eight people on it. I mean, this could be a significant investment.

CO: Just a bit about who Yusaku Maezawa is, because he's a self-made man, japanese billionaire, known as a former punk rocker. How did he make his money?

CD: He made his money by creating an online retail label and a fashion label of his own. He is an art collector who's made a splash actually collecting several high profile pieces of art including paying $110 million for a Basquiat painting. Clearly, I mean, you can see this, is passionate about space.

CO: Mr. Maezawa has said that he will be making this trip probably in the year 2023, which is not very long from now. So is that possible?

CD: Perhaps. I mean, we don't know but as soon as Yusaku said that Elon said ‘Well, let's hold a minute here.’ I mean we always set these goals and we set the goals on purpose because it's an aspirational goal. But then they always collide headfirst with reality and it's never as easy as it seems initially and he's aware of that and he faces repeated delays with so many of his projects. And I think it's very likely that this would be delayed as well. And they're not going to be able to make 2023. It may be delayed quite a bit. I mean, let's not forget this is a rocket that doesn't yet exist. We're not sure how much it would even cost to develop the rocket. We’re Not sure where the money would even come from. You know, however significant this investment is from this Japanese billionaire, it's certainly not going to cover the cost of the development of this entire rocket, which Elon talked about could be in the range of $5 billion. But it's not clear where that's going to come from. And he also is quite frank in saying that even if they are able to get the money, it's unclear that they could actually — it's so advanced and so difficult — that they could ever get it off the pad. I mean, he said he would do everything in his power to ensure that it would be successful and safe. But, you know, right now there are no guarantees.

CO: And then there's the whole pioneering idea of going around them with a bunch of civilians. And in a mission that could be quite dangerous. I mean, what kind of travel insurance do you get for something like this?

CD: Right. I mean, it's all unprecedented. We're in unchartered territory. I mean, this is, you know, it would be essentially be the Apollo 8 mission where you go on a trip around the moon and they acknowledge it would be incredibly dangerous. And let's not forget that for all of the triumphs that Elon Musk and Space X have had, they have not yet to this day flown a single astronaut even just to Earth orbit — let alone doing an orbit of the moon. So this seems like a significant step ahead. It's incredibly ambitious. It's very dangerous. Elon praised this crew, should he be able to get them, as being incredibly brave and adventurous but it’s not clear how many people would be willing to sign up to go along with him.

CO: And what about this being a bit of a distraction away from Elon Musk's many problems at this point. I mean, he's being sued by that cave diver, the British cave diver who did the rescue in Thailand for his remarks. He's being investigated by the Department of Justice. Is this a distraction?

CD: That's right. I mean, all of this is happening against that backdrop. I mean, it's sort of this chaotic summer that Elon Musk has had — particularly with Tesla — with all of the things you just mentioned. And, you know, you just sort of have to wonder how he's able to focus on something like this. Now that said, I think for him, Space X has been sort of an oasis of calm compared to Tesla, which has just been so tumultuous and so chaotic. And it allows him to distract himself to sort of look beyond all of the problems and the investigations that are swirling around him on Earth today, to look into the future. You know, which you said he can't wait. And he was super fired up and you got no hint — there was no talk of any of this tumult and problems that are swirling around him. It was all looking toward this romantic vision of the future that he has. But, you know, back here on Earth the reality is going to hit him.

CO: The ultimate escape fantasy.

CD: Yeah, right. I mean, and, you know, and he’s tweeting out these pictures today that are gorgeous of this beautiful rocket in orbit with the Earth behind it and a ballerina floating through space playing a violin. I mean, it all seems a little bit science fiction, but that's sort of what everyone has said about Elon Musk from the beginning. I mean Space X itself is an improbable story. I mean, it was never supposed to be successful and yet he was. I mean, this sort of somewhat eccentric, South African technology billionaire couldn't start a rocket company they said — but he did. Not only did he do it, he was successful. So sometimes you can't count Elon Musk out, but you do want to look at this with some level of skepticism as well.

CO: We'll leave it there. Christian, thank you.

CD: Thank you.

JD: That was Author and Washington Post writer Christian Davenport. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

[Music: Xylophone]

Jeremy Dutcher Polaris Prize

JD: Alice Watson emailed us to say “I was completely beguiled by the beauty of this song. As beautiful as a painting that causes wonder or a touching novel.” Lorna Berchard wrote quote “What is the name of that beautiful song and singer that I just heard? I have to buy it. And Joe Rederer said “It was incredible. I need to hear more.” And if you were listening to As It Happens on Friday evening, you probably felt the same way. Jeremy Dutcher does tend to stop you in your tracks. His album Wolastoqiyik Lintuwakonawa has a pretty fascinating origin story. Five years ago, an elder in his community sent him to an archive of wax cylinders from the turn of the century — recordings of his ancestors singing in the Wolastoqiyik language. Mr. Dutcher then made an album based around those recordings, in which his singing is in a haunting and breathtaking dialogue with those voices. Like I said, it is an amazing story. But those listeners had a visceral response to the music itself, and so did the judges of the 2018 Polaris Music Prize which Jeremy Dutcher won last night. Here as part of his victory speech.

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JEREMY DUTCHER: Music is changing this land. And what you see on this stage tonight, this is the future. This is what's to come. I was going real off-script there for a minute. But now I feel really bad. You know, it doesn't matter. This is the greatest moment of my life.

JD: 27-year-old Jeremy Dutcher after he won the 2018 Polaris Music Prize last night.

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Part 3: Florence pollution, McGill medical museum

Florence pollution

Guest: Kemp Burdette

JD: Thousands of people are displaced and the flood waters continue to spread. The storm is over, but for residents of North Carolina the consequences of Hurricane Florence are not in the rearview mirror yet. Over the past few days we have been telling you about the immediate impact of this storm on those in its path. But some environmental advocates are warning of the longer term effects on the water system. Toxic residue from coal ash stored at energy plants, as well as masses of waste produced by hog and poultry farms, have been swept up by those floodwaters. The risk to the environment and public health they say is an inevitability. Kemp Burdette is with the advocacy group Cape Fear River Watch. We reached him in Wilmington, North Carolina.

CO: Mr. Burdette, I understand a few days ago you went to investigate for yourself around Lake Sutton. What did you see?

KEMP BURDETTE: I saw what appeared to be what was two breaches in the Sutton Power Plant’s coal ash landfill site. They've been moving coal ash from unlined pits right next to Sutton Lake into a lined coal ash landfill facility, they're in the process of constructing that, and there were two enormous breaches that were discharging huge amounts of water.

CO: This is water from this coal ash dump. What does coal ash and why is it so dangerous?

KB: Well, coal ash is what's left over after you burn coal to generate electricity. And it kind of concentrates the heavy metals that are found in coal. And so coal ash has high levels of pretty toxic heavy metals like arsenic and chromium, vanadium, selenium, boron, manganese, iron — the kinds of things that could very easily contaminate surface water and especially groundwater.

CO: Duke Energy, that's the company that has these sites, what are they saying?

KB: They've confirmed that some of this spill reached Sutton Lake, which is problematic. They have downplayed the significance. The company released a statement on Saturday evening. I didn't get to the site until daylight the next morning, and the facility was still pouring wastewater from this confinement area. And so the estimate of how much coal ash spilled was given the night before and they haven't revised it.

CO: I just want to get to another area that I understand it has also been reported in recent days, even before the rain started to fall, that people are very concerned about runoff from hog and poultry farms that are in the area, that there is some pretty big discharge lagoons of waste material. What's happening there? Have they been able to investigate any of that stuff is getting into the water system?

KB: This is a huge concern. I think the greatest concern I have about the storm. All of the rivers in my base and all of the sub-basins are experiencing historic floods — floods higher than we've ever seen in recorded history. And these are the areas where there are more concentrated animal feeding operations, more factory farms, more hog farms than any other place on earth and so there's going to be an enormous impact there. These open cesspools of swine feces and urine are going to be inundated by floodwaters. The floodwaters may cause some of these lagoons, as they're called, to breach completely. My colleagues have already photographed examples of this. I'll be flying tomorrow and fully expect to see numerous examples of waters continue to rise, they'll be rising for another day or two and then they will stay up at record levels for five or more days.

CO: After Hurricane Floyd back in 1999, these hog lagoons, this waste, these feces were supposed to be better controlled than there were restrictions put in place. But I understand in recent years a lot of those restrictions have been loosened again, is that right?

KB: Following Floyd there was a recognition that we had to do something about hog farms and there was a moratorium imposed on future hog farms. Now, we already had more than any place else in the world, so maybe a little too little, too late, but what we've seen recently in North Carolina over the last five to 10 years, has been an explosion of poultry farming and so it's the same model, it’s huge numbers of animals. Some of these farms hold 30,000 chickens and some farms have 10, 12, 14, 16 barns each with 30,000 birds — so they're generating enormous amounts of waste piled into a huge house-sized piles and sometimes under shed's. But regardless when you have a flood of this magnitude all of that waste is going to be washed into streams. Anything from the flooding will be washed into streams.

CO: And what will it create? What are the consequences?

KB: So there's 10 million hogs in North Carolina, east of I-95, east of Interstate 95, so that's about the eastern third of the state. That's the same number of people that we have in North Carolina, but they produce much more ways than humans. Much of that waste is going to be introduced into waterways that flow through communities downstream. So as these rivers come up they flood everything. They don't just flood the farms, they flood homes, they flood churches, they flood schools — they flood entire communities. And those flood waters are going to carry some terrible, nasty things that you find in raw untreated animal waste, and people are going to suffer because of it.

CO: But at the same time the Environmental Protection Agency has relaxed some restrictions, if I'm right. The Trump administration has moved to take down some of the federal regulations on both those coal ash ponds and that waste lagoons. What responsibility will these companies have to bear for what's happening to the environment?

KB: Well, you're right that there have been efforts at the federal level to reduce environmental regulations and it's kind of the Wild West in North Carolina as far as poultry goes. We're seeing new barns built every day because there are so few regulations to actually control them. I think this is gonna be an epic disaster and it is probably going to be a real eye-opener for North Carolina and what kind of risk these facilities pose to people all over the state.

CO: And is there any way to try to mitigate some of that now? Is there any way to contain any of this flow of waste into the water systems at this point?

KB: There is absolutely nothing that anyone can do. There is no way to stop the disaster that's unfolding right now in North Carolina. The waste is already there, the floodwaters are coming up and the communities are already downstream. So there's nothing we can do this time, we can only hope to take action in the future that prevent this from happening again.

CO: All right. Mr. Burdette, I appreciate speaking with you, thank you.

KB: Thank you for having me.

JD: Kemp Burdette is with the environmental advocacy group Cape Fear River Watch. We reached him in Wilmington, North Carolina.

[Music: Trance Bass]

From Our Archives: Lehman Brothers Collapse

JD: It was a failure that had consequences around the world. The biggest bankruptcy filing in the history of the United States almost exactly 10 years ago, September 15th 2008 the U.S. investment bank Lehman Brothers collapsed. Lynn Gray was an employee at Lehman Brothers, and on the one year anniversary of the bankruptcy filing she spoke with Carol on this program. Ms. Gray remembered the day before it happened she was called into work by a manager on a Sunday.

SOUNDCLIP

LYNN GRAY: In my role as chief administrative officer for the business I kept the client list on my computer. And he called me in to start making copies because if we were sold to either Bank of America or Barclays we had a lot of partnerships that we needed to notify. And, you know, this is very proprietary information so it wasn't easily accessible. I got through about the fifth copy and in walked our senior managers, and I said ‘What are you doing here?’

CO: On Sunday.

LG: And he said “There's no deal.” And I said “What do you mean there's no deal?” He said “There's no deal. And if they don't resurrect something they're going to file for bankruptcy.” I couldn't believe it. It just was, you know, it's just like something that we just never imagined that Lehman Brothers would disappear.

CO: Even now you sound shaken.

LG: I am. They were saying that this morning, you know, and all over town in New York there were reunion parties tonight with Lehman people who want to be together today. And so, you know, I basically didn't know what to do. We were sort of hanging around hoping that we'd get a, you know, that these guys would get called back downtown. And they didn't.

CO: And then the next morning when did you hear?

LG: Well, we actually got an e-mail at 12:09 in the morning. And when I got the e-mail I was watching CNBC all night and watching people who I knew coming out of the building. There were e-mails going around what should we do, should we go there, because people are afraid that if there was a bankruptcy they'd get locked out of the building. And I had more confidence in the system than that. So I basically stayed home and then didn't sleep very much, and then 12:09 we got an e-mail that firm was going to file for bankruptcy, but that we should come into work the next day unless told otherwise. It was dark out when I got to the building the next morning. And I stopped at a coffee vendor and he asked me ‘How are you doing?” And I lost it — just total, total sadness.

CO: So you started to cry?

LG: I did.

CO: In front of the coffee vendor?

LG: Yes, I cried. I had given him $20 and told him just to keep the change because I knew he certainly needed the money.

CO: He would have been one of the vendors just around the building then that had all the business there?

LG: Yes. And I was walking towards the building and a woman who I did not know said ‘Oh, another Lehmanite.’ And I, since I’m crying already, grabbed her ,we hugged each other. We were both crying and locked on and went into the building together. But it was a very, very rough day.

JD: From our archives, that was Lynn Gray in conversation with Carol back in 2009, exactly one year after Lehman Brothers filed for bankruptcy. She was a senior vice president at the company.

[Music: Piano]

McGill medical museum

Guest: Dr. Richard Fraser

JD: There's a new museum opening at McGill University that may not be for the faint of heart, or for those who faint at the sight of hearts. The Maude Abbott Medical Museum brings together everything from human organs, to skeletons to medical memorabilia. And beginning next week it will be open, to not just medical students and medical professionals, but to the general public as well. Dr. Richard Fraser is a pathologist at the McGill University Health Centre. He helped bring the museum to life. We reached Dr. Fraser in Montreal.

CO: Dr. Fraser, what kinds of human body parts will people be able to see at this museum?

DOCTOR RICHARD FRASER: Well, we have virtually everything you can think of, virtually every organ of the body as well as many bones from the skeleton.

CO: How will you display them?

RF: In two ways. One is seen in cabinets — well-lit with labels so that people can view them properly and see what they are. And then secondly, we also have a number of tablets in which we have illustrations of the specimens and we talk a little bit more about them and put them in the context of history and where they came from.

CO: Before we get into that, a bit about these specimens, as you call them. What exactly are some of the ones that you think the public will be most interested in?

RF: Well, we have a lot of material that relates to disease which is common enough that people will know what it is. For example, there are some brains in which people have fallen previously and developed haemorrhage, blood that compressed the brain and caused death. Perhaps even more common is the heart that you might see a heart attack. People will have maybe read about things like that and maybe even seen pictures of it, to see the actual three-dimensional structure, if you want, that demonstrates what happens, I think, has meaning, certainly for students, and also for the public who will have come across some of these abnormalities.

CO: How did you acquire them? Where did they come from?

RF: Well, they all come from individuals who attended hospitals in Montreal, mostly in the McGill system of hospitals. And during the time when they were acquired it was another era. It was more the paternalistic, if you want to call it that, era of medicine when consent for either performing certain procedures, as well as for acquiring organs at surgery, for example, if an organ was taken out in the operating room or after death, such consent was not always given. We now, and for many, many years, in fact, for over 50 years, have not taken material like this because we would specifically ask consent of the patient for our use of it and we just don't do it anymore. That's one of the reasons why the material that we have at McGill is valuable in a sense. It's the kind of thing that would never be collected or acquired again. And the way we've approached it is to say that the people who gave, if you want, the material at the time without their knowledge, if you ask people now if they would be willing to give material for educational or other purposes the vast majority of people, if you explain why, will agree to it. And although we don't have that information from the previous people obviously, we work on the assumption that the vast majority would be willing to do that.

CO: How did this museum come about? The name is the Maude Abbott Medical Museum. What's the story behind this?

RF: So the story is that it began probably in the 1820s, just at the time that McGill University was being formed, and it began because the four founders of McGill were physicians who founded basically the medical school and wanted to teach. And at the time medical museums were considered to be a very important part of student teaching, so they began by collecting various organs and bones that they got from their patients. And over the years, that developed into a museum, and this was a common thing, most medical schools at the time develop museums such as this for student teaching. And then around 1920, 1930 their use and value started to decrease and there were other ways of teachings that were starting to be developed.

CO: Who is Maude Abbott?

RF: Maude Abbott was a young woman when she took over the control of the museum, that was in 1898, and she was a remarkable woman. She was one of the first women to graduate from McGill University in Arts, and went on to become a physician, although she couldn't do it at McGill at the time, she did it at Bishop's. But she went on to take over the curatorship of the museum for about 25 years, from about 1898 to mid-1920s, and she developed it into one of the premier medical museums in North America.

CO: Now the original purpose though, of a museum like this as a teaching museum. Why open it to the general public? I mean, are you at all concerned that people just have a kind of morbid fascination with it or do you really see this as something of value beyond that?

RF: Yeah, I do. I do. And I'll tell you there are several reasons for it. I understand what you mean by morbid fascination and you never know, there may be some people who have that feeling. We treat everything that we have here with the utmost respect, and we see it as, if you want, a giving of knowledge. It almost sounds too highfalutin, if you want, but that's really what we see it as. And I think for people to actually learn about disease, which is one of the things that we can teach them about, and to some extent come a little closer to death and what death is, is not something that everyone comes across as a young person. And I think it's worthwhile for people to somehow know a little bit about this, confront it — and that's one of the things we can do here.

CO: Dr. Fraser, thank you.

RF: You're welcome.

JD: Dr. Richard Fraser is a pathologist at the McGill University Health Centre. We reached him in Montreal.

[Music: Ambient Bass]

Anderson Cooper

JD: As a rule, reporters try not to become the subject of the story — but occasionally it is inevitable. Like when someone makes them the subject by accusing them of peddling fake news. Which is why Anderson Cooper, host of CNN's AC 360, devoted nearly 10 minutes of his new show last night to debunking a claim leveled by none other than the president's son Donald Trump Jr. In a tweet, Don Jr. alleged that Mr. Cooper had staged an on-camera shoot during Hurricane Florence to make it appear as though he was standing in waist-deep water, when in fact the water level was much lower. Here is some of Mr. Cooper's on air rebuttal.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDERSON COOPER: I rarely respond to online conspiracy theorists or cable news cranks looking to get into a mutually beneficial beef that'll boost their ratings. And I usually let conspiracy theorists go unanswered. Over the weekend however, the son of the president, Donnie Junior., tweeted out this picture of me in waist-high water, my camera crew a few feet away on higher ground in only a little bit of water. Donnie Junior was claiming it showed me in Florence faking the depths of flood waters in order to somehow harm his father. And I quote from his tweet, “Stop lying to try to make @RealDonaldTrump look bad,” he wrote. Now the picture has popped up in various mediums alleging fake news. Some guy I've never heard of made a joke on Twitter that I was on my knees in the water to make it look deep and then went on to say that I was used to being on my knees, which I assume is some sort of anti-gay reference — very classy. Anyway, in the interest of honesty and transparency here's what was actually happening. Number one, this was not Hurricane Florence. This was taken 10 years ago during Hurricane Ike. On September 13, 2008, I did a two hour broadcast from Bridge City, Texas by Highway 62, in Orange County not far I am told from the city of Orange. Now the storm had been downgraded to a tropical storm, but in this area there was extensive flooding still. As for those who think I was kneeling or faking the water level or making it look worse than it was or standing in some sort of a hole, this is an area where people had been trapped on the roofs of their homes by water. Texas Governor Rick Perry, who I actually interviewed during this broadcast called it, and I quote “the largest rescue and recovery operation in Texas state history.” There was plenty of deep water all around. The idea that I'm kneeling in water to make it look deep is frankly idiotic. There is a road right next to us that is being used to evacuate people. And I wasn't standing on the road because I didn't want to get in the way and invade people's privacy. My camera crew is on that higher part by the side of the road because you can't put camera equipment in deep water. You have to keep the cameras dry. Now you can argue I could have stood on the road with the camera crew. But again, I didn't want to be roaming around on the highway interfering with rescue vehicles in any way. I also wanted to show people how deep the water was and how dangerous it is for anyone driving, as anybody who watches hurricanes know that's how most people die in hurricanes — they drown. If you leave the road, even a few feet off the road, you suddenly find yourself in very deep water and you have no idea how deep it is until you're in it. Now look, I don't expect the president's son to ever admit he was wrong, or frankly anyone else's retweeted these pictures. But I at least thought that they, and you, should know the truth. And finally, for anyone who still thinks this was taken in Florence, the person you see there his name was Doug Thomas, the audio tech he worked for CNN for 26 years, he covered a lot of storms and a lot of stories. He died a year ago this month — and we miss him every day.

JD: CNN's Anderson Cooper refuting a tweet from Donald Trump Junior over the weekend in which the president's son alleged that Mr. Cooper had deliberately manipulated reporting from Hurricane Florence to make it appear worse than it was. You can view Mr. Cooper's full rebuttal to Don Junior's charge, which includes clips of the original footage from Hurricane Ike ten years ago, at www.cnn.com.

[Music: Trance Bass]

Random Swede Call

SOUNDCLIP

PAUL: Hello. Where are you calling from?

CO: I’m calling from Canada. Are you a Swede?

PAUL: Canada?

CO: Yes.

PAUL: Excuse me. I’m at a big party — and ABBA party. You know ABBA from Sweden?

CO: You are at an ABBA party?

PAUL: Yeah.

JD: Carol does not usually start interviews by asking questions like ‘Are you a Swede?’ But she had to make sure because the whole point of calling that number was to reach a Swede — a random Swede. Back in 2016 Sweden's tourist association set up a line that anyone in the world could call at any time and reach someone in Sweden, which is how we got hold of that guy, Paul, who claimed he was at an ABBA party. Sweden's big on letting its citizens speak on its behalf. Since 2011 a group called the Swedish Institute has let regular Swedes tweet from the official @Sweden account. They were not random. They did have to apply and they were selected by a committee of judges — but they were all different. 356 people ranging from 15 to 81 years old were made curators of that account. One week at a time they were allowed to tweet pretty much whatever they wanted. It was sometimes messy, sometimes controversial, sometimes hilarious — but it was an amazing exercise in free speech. Now, after more than 200,000 tweets @Sweden is at its end. The Swedish Institute says it is not reaching enough people around the world. So as of September 30th it will fall silent after seven years. The call a random Swede only ran from April to June of 2016 — but it was hugely successful. More than 32,000 Swedish people took part, and more than 180,000 people from 186 countries around the world called the random Swede line during its short life. After we lost our connection to Paul that day we get a hold of a different random Swede named Caroline.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: We just spoke with another random Swede named Paul who says that he doesn’t have Ikea furniture, he only buy Danish. Is he a snob, do you think?

CAROLINE: He’s probably a snob.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: But he said he was at an ABBA party. Do you think he was having me on?

CAROLINE: Maybe. I haven’t heard of that before.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: Are you an ABBA fan?

CAROLINE: Yeah, I like ABBA. If I hear them on the radio I could sing along. If you talk about music maybe Roxette, they were big in the 90s, with hits like — I forgot it’s name — It Must Have Been Love.

JD: From April of 2016 that was Carol in conversation with someone we knew only as Caroline, who was taking part in a project where people from anywhere in the world could call a phone number and get a random Swede.

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Sept. 18, 2018 episode transcript

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