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The Current Transcript for September 13, 2018

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

[Noisy protest]

I've asked the leader of the opposition to come to order. I am warning the leader of the opposition. Ms Howarth, you are named. You have to leave the chamber.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: It is a chaotic firestorm that is raging through Ontario politics and it took another twist yesterday as the NDP opposition leader and most of her caucus were led individually out of the legislative chamber for protesting. It began as a fight over the new conservative government's plans to control the size of Toronto's municipal council and it now encompasses constitutional wrangling and major rifts over the role of the judiciary. And that is where we are picking up the story in just a moment. Also today another political fight where the noise level is high and a lot of fathers are getting ruffled.

SOUNDCLIP

[Squeaks]

AMT: That is the sound of Feral Peacocks beginning their day in the neighborhood in Surrey British Columbia. They may be birds of magnificent plumage but with their droppings and that noise and their growing numbers they are the reason neighbours are picking sides. Rafferty Baker brings us the story of a bowel feud in half an hour. And human rights groups say what is happening to the Uighur minority in China rivals a scale not seen since Mao's Cultural Revolution. For Uighurs in Canada the uncertainty of what is happening is unbearable.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Until now I don't know where they are, how many radicals in concentration camps.

VOICE 2: I don't know they are alive or died.

AMT: The story that China insists is not happening, in an hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

Back To Top »

Doug Ford is 'running roughshod over our rights,' says Andrea Horwath

Guests: Andrea Howarth, Jason Lietaer

SOUNDCLIP

[Protestors chanting]

Well from outside the Ontario legislature.

SOUNDCLIP

[Noisy protests]

I'm sure we're going to clear the galleries.

AMT: To the gallery inside.

SOUNDCLIP

[Drumming on desks]

AMT: To the floor of the legislator at Queen's Park itself opponents of Doug Ford's government made themselves heard yesterday. Protesters were escorted out including several opposition NDP MPs. To many observers, it was a show of the atarax on par with anything screening now at the Toronto International Film Festival but the source of outrage was real and two fold. Premier Doug Ford's legislation shrinking Toronto City Council by nearly half, and the first time use in Ontario of Canada's Not Withstanding Clause to override a judge's decision earlier this week that deemed the new law unconstitutional. In full disclosure I am in a relationship with the Toronto City Council who is running in the smaller 25 Ward configuration. Andrea Horwath is the leader of Ontario's NDP. She is the official opposition leader in the province. She did not get to vote on the new efficient local government act. She was one of the MP ejected from the legislature. Andrea Horwath joins us now from Toronto hello.

ANDREA HORWATH: Hello Anna Maria.

AMT: How would you describe what happened at Queen's Park yesterday?

ANDREA HORWATH: It was an extraordinary day. It was a sad day for Ontario. I have never seen literally senior citizens be dragged out of the galleries in handcuffs. And we made a decision to stand very clearly with those people who we agree with, that what this report is doing is unacceptable. And it's the result of a petty small minded premier who's more focused on a vendetta against his foes that run a city council than he is about the things that Ontarians care about. Things like gridlock in our hospitals and crumbling schools, 80,000 jobs being lost just last month. You know he's admitted himself that this is a personal issue for him, as he described the specific city council that he doesn't like. It's shameful and the invoking of the Notwithstanding Clause is a tool that should never be used for something so small minded. I mean nobody should be able to just change the rule of an election in the middle of an election. Certainly not in a well-established democracy like what we have, maybe in a developing country that's trying to find a path to democracy but certainly not in Ontario it is a shameful situation.

AMT: I want to ask you about the scene that unfolded in the legislature. Surely many of those protesters arrived with full expectation of being tossed out.

ANDREA HORWATH: I really have no idea. I wasn't part of that nor was my team part of the protestor's agenda. That's something that they were doing themselves. All we did is give them the passes to get in because that's what we do for anybody who requires or request a pass. We had no expectation whatsoever.

AMT: And what made you and your colleagues decide to do the kind of protest that you did?

ANDREA HORWATH: You know I think it was just the shock of seeing what happened in the morning that in the afternoon we decided to clearly show our displeasure. This is an extraordinary time in these kinds of extraordinary measures require an extraordinary response. So yes several and many of the NDP opposition members were not able to vote on the first reading of the bill. There are two more reading of the bill. We have other things that we are going to try to do to take this train off its tracks because it is the wrong thing for Ontario and it is a shameful situation.

AMT: Premier Ford has been quick to point out that he represents the 2.3 million people in Ontario who voted for his party, and that the judge who heard the case was not elected. What does that tell you about this government's view of the traditional role of the judiciary?

ANDREA HORWATH: Well I mean I think there's a couple of things. We know there are many many millions of people that didn't vote for Mr. Ford. 60 percent of the people that did go to the polls didn't vote for Mr. Ford and there are unfortunately many many others that didn't even you know go to the polls to vote at all. So that's I think the first thing to be observed. Look the other thing is this; we do have a system of democracy in our country that provides for you know an order of government you know rule of government if you will that is kept in check by the judiciary. And we were not America. We're Canada. We have a constitution and we have constitutionally protected charter of rights and freedom in the judiciary's role is is to ensure that our democracy is upheld. So to really frankly, Anna Maria, prevent you know tyrannical dictator politicians from running roughshod over our rights. And unfortunately that's what Miss Ford is doing. It's sad that he doesn't understand how important our judiciary is. And for a party that likes to hold itself up as being the defenders of the rule of law, I guess that doesn't have to be something that they have to abide by. It's really quite something.

AMT: And yeah there is a section in the Constitution that allows the government to involve the notwithstanding clause.

ANDREA HORWATH: Yes of course of course there is but the point is just because it exists does it mean you should use it and that way it hasn't been used because it's a very very serious matter to override our fundamental rights and freedoms. And that's why you know no Premier has ever done that in Ontario that is why many former even conservative premiers are saying that this was the wrong thing to do for the wrong reason, because of a petty spat that he's having with city counsellors in Toronto that he doesn't like.I mean really? Is that what our premier is supposed to be all about. It's really a sad day for Ontario.

AMT: Can you imagine any scenario that would warrant the use of the notwithstanding clause?

ANDREA HORWATH: Well you know I we know that it's been used in situations particularly around dealing with the language rights in Quebec and in other situations. But you know these are these these are situations that are different from Mr. Ford's vendetta in Toronto. There are many more things that we need to be worried about in our province. Mr. Ford proudly calling out literally by name some of the city councillors that he personally doesn't like. That's not his business. It's up to the voters of Toronto to determine who their representatives are. Even children know that you don't change the rules of a game in the middle of the game. Even our kids understand that basic concept. So again I mean you know there's no doubt that there are many many people that are just disgusted by what this government's doing and it's unfortunate that they're spending their time in this way as opposed to dealing with the 80,000 jobs that we lost last month in Ontario, or the fact that our hospitals are in gridlock, or that our schools are crumbling as their kids they're trying to learn each and every day. It's really a sad commentary on this preemie priorities and his you know the way he's using his power. It's an abuse of power. Absolutely.

AMT: He has said he would use the notwithstanding clause again if the situation warrants. What kind of precedent has the government set here?

ANDREA HORWATH: Well you know that is another very chilling threat that he has made. And again it goes back to the issue of our democracy. Our democracy is based on an independent judiciary that holds tyrannical governments in check, or is supposed to. And it is based on a free press as well. These are tenants of our of our country's democracy and to watch Mr. Ford roughshod over over these things it's not only a problem for Ontario, it's a national problem and a shame on him while being so reckless.

AMT: You contend and Mr. Ford contends, along with the members of his party, that they're fighting for the democratic rights of Ontarians. What do you think that says about the state of democracy and governance in this province and in Canada for that matter, that you both say you're fighting for democracy?

ANDREA HORWATH: Well I mean I think what people I think need to look at is is what democracy is in Canada and what it isn't. And what it is I believe is you know a system that's upheld by an independent judiciary that holds up all our Charter of Rights and Freedoms in our Constitution, and it prevents basic rates from being from being trampled on by governments. That's what democracy's all about. Mr. Ford Might not like that but that's what it's all about. Again to attack the judiciary, to say some of the things that Mr. Ford said at his press conference the other day, is really frightening thing. Really,as a Canadian, I am quite shocked. And I think it's incumbent upon every Ontarian and Canadian to take a hard look at what kind of future we want in our country. Do we want to turn into another kind of country where we don't have our charter rights upheld and guaranteed, where any buddy can come to power and simply trample on our rights. I don't think that's what Canadians are made of. I certainly hope not. You know I guess we'll wait and see. But what we've seen as Mr. Ford attacked the courts, he's attacked our democracy. And yesterday he was attacking you know people who disagree with him by by shouting to have folks removed from the galleries and literally grandmas and grandpas removed from the gallery in handcuffs, something I've never seen as an elected person in our province. It was quite the sight.

AMT: Ms. Horwath, many or Premier Ford's most ardent supporters argues thate was elected with the hope that he would disrupt politics as usual. How surprised are you at his willingness to upset the status quo so early in his mandate?

ANDREA HORWATH: Well you know nothing surprises me when it comes to the Fords. We see the circus that they created in Toronto and they're unfortunately bringing that same circuits to Ontario. But I think most Ontarians really do believe that governments are there to make life better for folks not to create chaos and havoc. And it's unfortunate that we have the premier whose goal is to create chaos and havoc instead of solving the real problems that Ontarians are facing.

AMT: We have to leave it there. Andrea Horwath, thank you.

ANDREA HORWATH: Thank you Anna Maria.

AMT: Andrea Horwath is the leader of Ontario's NDP, the province's official opposition. She spoke to us from Toronto. We did request interviews with Ontario premier Doug Ford. Stephen Lecce a conservative MP and parliamentary assistant to the premier as well as Stephen Clark the minister of municipal affairs and housing we did not hear back. To give a sense of how Mr. Ford's stance is playing in conservative circles, I'm joined by Jason Lietaer. He is a conservative strategist he worked in prime minister Stephen Harper's war room in 2011. He is currently the president of enterprise can a national communications firm and he joins us from our studio in Hamilton, Ontario. Hello.

JASON LIETAER: Hey how are you?

AMT: What's your reaction to the scene yesterday at Queen's Park?

JASON LIETAER: Well you know I hear I've heard Miss Horwath's reaction and it was quite the scene. I will say it wasn't a great scene at Queen's Park yesterday and I think Miss Horvath and caucus have to take some responsibility for that. I mean the one thing that I would say is they obviously looked to have a confrontation at Queen's Park yesterday. I sort of laughed out loud when Mr. Horwath said they had nothing to do with it and you know that was all that just happened in the galleries, yesterday what happened and it just happened. It just was a lucky coincidence I guess that they had also planned to all get kicked out of the legislature and not vote. Listen, a good public relations stunt. I get it. But you know not a scene that we want to see I think going forward and I think they wanted a confrontation and they got it and it was unfortunate.

AMT: There doesn't seem to be any precedent for the most complete removal of the official opposition from a Canadian legislature. Was that the right decision?

JASON LIETAER: I heard Ms. Horwath. I think the rhetoric gets ratcheted up. I heard Ms. Horwath talk about grandmothers being led into the legislature in handcuffs or like that stuff and blaming Mr. Ford for that, Premier Ford for that. I will say you and I both know who controls security in the legislature is certainly not the premier and certainly not the government but that's an independent agency that...

AMT: I'm asking you specifically about the position that was the speaker of the house.

JASON LIETAER: Yes I mean as you know the speaker is independent as well.

AMT: Was it a good decision?

JASON LIETAER: I think he made his own decision- I wasn't in the House yesterday. I watched some of the video and I will say it was obviously Horwath's objective to get kicked out yesterday. It was obviously what she was trying to do. She was the first one kicked out. That was obviously what she was looking for. She wanted to do that public relations stunt. I think the speaker gave her an opportunity to not be kicked out and then the entire caucus- we know how this works. This is what they cooked up in the morning. This is what happened. If I were the speaker I would have tried to not kick them out. But that is what they want to have happen on the full throttle on the government's efficient local government act did not play well with the opposition obviously Queen's Park yesterday. How it playing to the party's conservative base?

JASON LIETAER: I think that's an understatement that it didn't play well with the opposition. This certainly an issue that has say split the base of both parties has been activated. The base of the conservative is Doug Ford. So Doug Ford owns about 40 percent of the seats in Toronto. He's not like some outsider that's come in you know from you know Sudbury or Thunder Bay or something like that got set on Toronto Council. It's certainly activated his base in the city. There's no doubt about that and conservatives I think in Ontario and across the country are certainly looking at him and shaking their first and saying 'way to go Doggy'. That's an honest assessment I think of what his base is doing. It's also activated I think the base of the NDP and the liberals in opposition to Mr. Ford. He's obviously a polarizing figure and I think both sides have sort of ratcheted it up, where they stand and it's an early confrontation in what looks to be like four years of pretty adversarial government.

AMT: You know especially the people outside the Toronto area and beyond like to people outside of Ontario the issue of municipal political map making might seem like an odd one to take this far. Why does it matter so much to this government?

JASON LIETAER: Yes it's a good question and it's a fair comment as well. There is a bit of that on both sides rated so what's the big deal or just try and change 12 city councils here a conservative say that none on the other side. So yeah what's the big deal. Listen Mr. Ford, he's obviously you know he sat on Toronto council. He's fought this for a while. He's not the only person and the conservatives are the only people by the way who have recommended reducing the size of Toronto city council. It hasn't been particularly functional place. I think that's his that's his point of view. Once you decide that you want to do this and he did obviously decide that he wanted to do this. And he decided that he wanted to do this by this fall. The government decided that. They were on a path that I think you know led them to this. Once you make that decision and once you decide that it's a big priority you're on this path and that's what I think forced the confrontation as they obviously think it's a big deal. They want to save the 20 or 25 million bucks that you know we've argued about whether how much this will save and all that stuff they obviously think but they want to save that money.

AMT: Let me ask you though the notwithstanding clause has never been used in interiorly before. Does it matter if one city's political map really meet the standard doesn't meet the bar.

JASON LIETAER: I think it's a good question and I think on this one I don't expect them to make a habit of using the notwithstanding clause. And I think what they are doing is very early in the mandate- Listen there's a lot of different ways to frustrate a politician's agenda and I think it's fair to say that conservative politicians face different ways to frustrate their agenda given the makeup of their their opponents. And I think this decision, one thing I didn't hear Ms. Horwath say and I'm not hearing pretty much anybody say, is that this judicial decision at law was a good one. I think most constitutional experts think that this was a pretty emotional decision written with significant bias that doesn't actually follow who's in charge of municipal boundaries.

AMT: Let me ask you about the judicial decision because Mr. Ford and many conservative pundits have highlighted the fact that the government was the like did the judge who threw out this legislation is not, every judge in this country is a political appointment. What are you saying about the rule of law in this country? What are you saying about judges? Should we not have judges in this country? What are we saying when we say this judge is a political appointment and I am elected?There is a question there, what do you think?

JASON LIETAER: Yeah here's what I think. I believe that judges have a role in interpreting law. Judges don't make law. Judges interpret law. Legislatures make law. I believe in accountability as well. And the one thing about this and this is sort of an argument I've had with some of my progressive friends, even when the government is not of a straight- Like for example I've got a government that I'm not that fond of in Ottawa right now. I believe in the fact that they should be able to make laws and govern the country and I believe in accountability. I actually think that there is the accountability, next time if I don’t like what Justin Trudeau is doing or Doug Ford is doing I can go and clearly have some recourse. I can go vote against them and make sure that I get to do that. You know I look back and you know there’s been a lot of discussion of over this and I'm going to read you.

AMT: Well yes yes I can get you to read me anything because you literally have 10 seconds. We are out of time. But just again, the rule of law and judges, do we need to rework our system, is that's what's going on here?

JASON LIETAER: Absolutely not. We'd have to rework the system but there are checks and balances on both sides. Judges are checks and balances on the legislatures the legislatures and parliament are also checks and balances on judges.

AMT: Okay Jason Lietaer, we have to leave it there. Thank you for your thoughts.

JASON LIETAER: Thanks very much.

AMT: Jason Leitaer a conservative strategist who worked in Prime Minister Stephen Harper Harper's the war room in 2011. He's currently the president and to reprise can and a national communications firm. He's in Hamilton Ontario. Let us know what you think tweet us we are @TheCurrent CBC. Find us on Facebook. Go to our Web site cbc.ca/thecurrent. Stay with us when we return another political fight this time with feathers.

Back To Top »

Behold the Peacock: a fowl with the power to divide a B.C. neighbourhood

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come.

SOUNDCLIP

I don't have any family back home and if I go back there, they're definitely going to put me in the camp.

AMT: People from China's Uighur Muslim minority here in Canada are terrified of what's happening to their fellow Uighurs back in China. And what they could face if they're deported more from that woman you just heard in Mississauga who's already received a deportation letter in half an hour. But first a colorful tale indeed.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Well it is a bird with a beauty like no other and so it's no surprise that at different times across various cultures the Peacock has been viewed as a mythical creature. It's been a symbol of royalty, of joy, of good luck, even of Christianity. But in present day Surrey B.C. one neighborhood has found itself bitterly divided over the presence of peacocks and whether they lift the spirit or are just one unholy mess. The CBC's Rafferty Baker investigates this longstanding dispute in his documentary A Fowl Feud.

SOUNDCLIP

RYAN: Most of the houses around here were still empty. There was quite a few houses that we could have chosen.

RAFFERTY BAKER: When Ryan Craig and his wife Julie looking for a new home in Surrey Sullivan Heights neighborhood, about 10 years ago, it was an area that was quickly changing. Developers were taking a lot of the larger properties and subdividing them into smaller lots.

RYAN: When we were looking at the show House we did see peacocks. There was three of them roosted on on Micky's property. At the time the implication of that was not obvious.

RAFFERTY BAKER: I mean the birds themselves couldn't be any more obvious; that brilliant plumage, the ostentatious displays and noisy calls. But I could see three of them alone minding their own business wouldn't set off alarm bells. However the small muster should probably have been viewed as a bit of a harbinger. Nevertheless Ryan and his wife bought a place that seemed like a great place to start a family. Before long though Ryan was struck with a realization.

RYAN: I was cleaning stuff out down to the basement entrance and I looked up. About ten peacocks; two adults and eight little ones were perched along my back railing there. So at that point in time I realized that populations are going to be bigger next year.

RAFFERTY BAKER: Now the Spanish word for Peacock is Pavo Real or royal turkey. And soon Ryan would come to be surrounded by these royal turkeys. And for him the experience wouldn't be very regal at all.

RYAN: Tend to buy cheap power washers.

[Machine starts up]

RAFFERTY BAKER: He regularly scours droppings from his patios walkways and roof.

RYAN: It looks like you sprung a leak on that one.

RAFFERTY BAKER: By the city of Surreys count, the Peafowl population would soon number at least a 100. This spring officials are suggesting there could be 150. The birds are feral but they stick to a pretty small area just a couple of blocks really. So with time Ryan has become intimately familiar with the habits of these birds. He knows how their brilliant plumage shimmers blue, indigo, green. How they strut around with an entitled noble air. He has learned their calls, their distinct ceaseless calls.

[Squeaks]

RYAN: They have a couple of different calls and they are calling and answering so it's not like one just going off you know. So it's even difficult to tell how many there actually are because they're just going that sort of whoa, whoa sort of sound. And it goes on for quite a while. And they also do a gobble kind of like a turkey from time to time [goggle]. The only one I 'm not confident doing is the is the scalded cat one [peacock sound]

[Squeak]

TJ: We still love peacocks. I love personally like I never had a problem with peacock beauty wise.

RAFFERTY BAKER: T.J. Shergill and his family owned three houses side by side. They're across the street from the Craigs.

TJ: has a tidy beard and he seems like a calm man. I do have a problem when they make a mass of damaging properties like scratching on the cars, attacking kids. Look at the my roof you can see what we- when we eat there this is what do we see every day. Look at the [unintelligible] the glass like it's full of their poo. We got to be that way and we clean all that right. So we're not that are rich enough like. You know what I mean.

[Squeak]

RAFFERTY BAKER: But for everyone in Ryan and T.J.'s corner complaining about the peafowl there's someone nearby who stands up for them. I meet one neighbor out for a stroll. Her name's Jody Misak. For her the birds are what make the area stand out.

JODY: I mean they're beautiful birds. And specially I was walking the dog this morning I found some long peacock feathers and gave them to a little kid and it just kind of unique for the neighborhood. I really like it.

AIZEL: Well for me. I want the peacock here. That's it. Because there have been here for so long. That's what I heard. This is their place right.

RAFFERTY BAKER: Aizel Villar figures the peafowl were here first before.

AIZEL: There's a lot of trees there and now the building houses.

RAFFERTY BAKER: The peacocks habitat is being reduced upsetting some of the local supporters who blame people not birds for the conflict in their community.

LANCE: You've got no nature in you, man. You're a sad person.

RAFFERTY BAKER: Lance Smart shouts at a TV reporter who questioned him about the peacocks from a news van. Lance is probably the Peacock's biggest defender. He's lived here for more than 30 years.

LANCE: You know the noises out bad they think they don't make noise. That's their voice. That's the way they are right. These are beautiful birds and you know we love them.

RAFFERTY BAKER: There is some debate about when the feral peacocks first appeared in Sullivan Heights. A city of Surrey document traces the origins to about 2006 when a property owner moved out of the area and left a group of the birds behind. It says the numbers have continued to grow unchecked since then. Peafowl supporters claim the flock goes back decades and the numbers have remained consistent. Regardless it's clear that by 2010 the issue had become a real problem for many.

NEWSCASTER: But neighbours are divided on what to do.

RAFFERTY BAKER: And that's when it first made the local news.

NEWSCASTER: So Bob Nixon went to find out what's up with the colourful visitor is creating a stir out in Surrey.

RAFFERTY BAKER: Today the birds are just part of the fabric of the neighborhood people have been living. TJ Shergill wife Polly and their kids Megan and Shania. They deal with the peacocks every day.

PAULIE: Megan my older daughter, in the old she's found it pretty annoying because if you can see up on our window we had a peacock always, they can see the reflection in the window as well. So it was attacking like literally attacking with the beak and then the claws and so noisy that you feel like somebody is breaking into your house. You know the peacocks going to break the window. Then what happens mummy, I said the peacocks going to come inside the house what more right.

MEGHAN: They attack and poop everywhere and we have to clean it.

RAFFERTY BAKER: You have to clean it too?

MEGHAN: No just my dad but I just don't like it because. When I ride my bike here it's in the way that I have to turn.

RAFFERTY BAKER: I guess nearly everyone has their limits.

[Music].

RAFFERTY BAKER: Many people here blame Lance Smart for the peafowl overrunning Sullivan Heights.

RYAN: He is very protective very possessive of the peacock's.

RAFFERTY BAKER: They accuse him of feeding the birds and sheltering chicks so they survive and grow up. But other neighbors told me they drop off empty drink containers at his home. So Lance can exchange them and buy feed, a sort of peacock fund.

TJ: Lance, he's kind of Tarzan guy yeah.

LANCE: I can lift more than my body weight on every muscle, your bicep, triceps.

RAFFERTY BAKER: And what do you weigh?

LANCE: About 170.

TJ: He's got some bunch of dogs in the back. Always feeding them I always ask him 'hey the way you live here looks to me like a Tarzan like living in the jungle in Surrey'.

LANCE: Yeah I have many nicknames Tarzan, Conan, Rambo.

RAFFERTY BAKER: Lance has wavy black hair that floods out of a baseball cap. He wears a hoodie with 'the champ' written on the back, underneath, a black muscle shirt that also says 'the champ'. [Squeaks] Lance lives on a property owned by a man in his late 70s named Mickey Rollins. It's about an acre and a half. The peacocks are definitely feral but if they had a headquarters this would be it. When I first set eyes on it I noticed a shed out back with cages, a little pool for animals to drink out of and an oversized bird feeder. But we'll get back to the feeder later. Mickey's property still has trees on it and overnight, that's where the peafowl go.

RYAN: Once they've chosen the tree to roost in the very hard to dissuade from that. So then the next battle would come in the morning. So they would start calling when the sun comes up.

[Squeaks]

RAFFERTY BAKER: Each day dawn brings an enthusiastic curve.

TJ: It's morning 5:00 and look at the noise. How are we going to sleep?

RAFFERTY BAKER: This is a video that T.J. emailed me. His alarm clock reads 05:11.

TJ: My kids were crying, even when I shut my window like still it was coming through. It's like really sharp. You can't even sleep with that. And that's why you I send the proper evidence, like people should look at it like you know this is what are we dealing here.

RAFFERTY BAKER: Ryan Craig's house doesn't faze Mickey's place but he used to have a big tree overlooking his yard. And that's where the birds used to roost.

RYAN: You can't sleep through that. So I'd be back down here in my bathrobe.

RAFFERTY BAKER: Ryan is standing on his patio looking at the spot where the tree used to stand. He says he would use an airsoft gun to fire plastic pellets at the roosting birds from his yard.

RYAN: So at that point they would fly out of the tree and fly down the street to the east towards Parm's hopes and then I can go back to bed.

RAFFERTY BAKER: Parm Brar lives a few houses down the street. The peacocks took a liking to the big old Douglas fir tree at the corner of his lot. In the evening the tree would fill with the colorful birds drawing looky-loos who would gawk and snap photos of the peacock and then at dawn Parm would also be treated to the song of the peafowl. [Squeaks] But for him the symphony was particularly rousing.

PAULIE: He had 40 peacocks up the street every night so I imagine palms tuition.

RAFFERTY BAKER: It sounds like he was just pushed to the limit.

PAULIE: He was.

RYAN: It takes a toll on you mentally you know to put up with that every day. I mean that's why Parm ended up doing what he did.

[Music]

RAFFERTY BAKER: This year's Peacock breeding season was well underway when Parm went rogue. He had tried desperately for a couple of years at least to get a permit to cut down the big fir tree but his applications were rejected. The city said the tree was perfectly healthy. So Parm managed to find someone who was willing to cut it down without a permit. And then on a humid Monday at the end of April, down it came.

RYAN: If a tree had been on my property and with the numbers of peacocks that we now had I own doubtingly would have done the same. Know you're at the end of your tether.

RAFFERTY BAKER: The city of Surrey immediately issued Parm a thousand dollar fine by law enforcement manager Jas Rehal also threatened further legal action.

JAS REHAL: Get it. There there's some issues there and the tree is causing problems, it doesn't give you the right to cut something down that is protected.

PARM: People are coming forward to support us like you know when this started happening people were thought 'oh he's going after the birds. He doesn't like peacocks'. That is not the case right. We never killed any peacock for babies or anything.

RYAN: Parm found himself at the center of the controversy and by early summer things were pretty bad. Here's how Jas describes it.

JAS REHAL: It's pretty intense. You know your neighbors are not talking to neighbors. Tention. You know people swearing at people. That's not good for any neighborhood.

RAFFERTY BAKER: Parm is being charged with two counts of a municipal bylaw offense his wife father and the two arborists who cut down his tree have also been charged. But he no longer has dozens of noisy birds outside his window each morning. They mostly moved down the street. Of course at this point the neighborhood is still teeming with Peafowl and the city is still getting an earful from all of the haters. In about a month after the tree incident at Parm's a complain about the huge bird feeder at Micky's yard gets attention from Surreys by law enforcement officers.

RYAN: So I call city of Surrey up again.

JAS REHAL: We received a complaint from the neighborhood that an individual was feeding peacocks.

RYAN: So then bylaws showed up at Mickey's house to inspect his little feeding area.

JAS REHAL: So our by the officer attended that the address in question.

RAFFERTY BAKER: But things got heated and in the dust up the bylaw officer activated a panic button.

POLICE OFFICER: There was an officer in distress and so our response was based on a call of an officer in distress. So multiple units did respond. A helicopter was in the area.

RAFFERTY BAKER: It turns out the helicopter belonged to one of the news networks not the police.

RYAN: Next thing you know, I think there were seven police cars an ambulance a fire truck and a helicopter.

RYAN: It was quite a scene. According to court documents a few RCMP officers responding to the panic signal arrived and claim they found Mickey aggressive and yelling. Police allege that Mickey pushed an RCMP officer and they had to take him down to restrain him and make the arrest. They brought him to jail but soon returned him home without charge. Police seized several weapons during the incident including three semi-automatic 12 gauge shotguns, a double barrel shock and a rifle and a handgun. Officers came back a couple of days later with a search warrant to seize more weapons. Documents show they left with six starter pistols, four rifles and a bunch of ammunition. No charges have been laid. The next time I was in the neighbourhood the giant bird feeder was gone. Lance acted coy about it and wouldn't say exactly what had happened.

LANCE: It's a terrible thing because there's fifty thousand bird feeders and you're picking on one. It's a joke.

RAFFERTY BAKER: I tried to speak to Mickey about all of this several times. I knocked on his door whenever I was in the neighbourhood. I tried calling phone numbers associated with him. I left my business card with Lance and asked him to put me in touch. Nothing. I did have a brief encounter with a man pulling out of Mickey's driveway and a grey pickup. Someone pointed him out as Mickey and he was driving a Dodge 3500 truck the same vehicle listed as Micky's in the court documents by.

RAFFERTY BAKER: Hi, How are you?

Mickey: I'm fine how are you?

RAFFERTY BAKER: I'm well. I'm with CBC Radio. I'm Rafferty.

Mickey: No!

RAFFERTY BAKER: No?

Mickey: No.

RAFFERTY BAKER: Are you Mickey?

Mickey: No!

RAFFERTY BAKER: No.

Mickey: I don't know the guy.

RAFFERTY BAKER: You don't know the guy. I was speaking to your

Mickey: Listen, I've had enough fucking trouble around here. I don't need any more publicity.

RAFFERTY BAKER: Alright. The dust had barely settled from the police incident when I heard from TJ again.

TJ: Hello?

RAFFERTY BAKER: Uh, TJ. It's Rafferty. I got your email that said to call you about a new problem.

TJ: um, the babies, they just came out last evening, right? So it's a new problem means so you can multiply whatever we have already here, right?

RAFFERTY BAKER: He emailed me another video. A peahen in a window well surrounded by peachicks.

They're pretty cute, but they sort of look like tiny velociraptors...running around, chirping. There's something ominous about it. And TJ who's usually pretty mellow seemed kind of wound up about the prospect of even more peacocks in Sullivan Heights.

TJ: If city's not going to step in now. So when they're going to do it? It's not only property, it's our cars getting scratched, the kids getting attacked by the birds. People going after each other like showing fingers to each other going by, everyone standing with the family outside. It's embarrassing now standing outside, right? So I told him personally like you know you need to stop all this breeding. It's getting worse now. He didn't listen, then we have to open up completely against him.

RAFFERTY BAKER: You mean Lance?

TJ: Yeah yeah. Why he need so many peacocks here in this neighbourhood? I told him you want to keep four or five peacocks that's fine. Okay right. But like having hundreds of them doesn't make any sense here in this neighbourhood.

RAFFERTY BAKER: What social order existed in Sullivan Heights was breaking down. There were jokes about killing the birds. At one point I asked Ryan what he thought when he saw a peacock on his street. His answer?

RYAN: If I drove over them would anyone notice. I also think about how much damage it would do to the vehicle.

RAFFERTY BAKER: But despite that comment, the morning pellet gun routine, and the constant stress the birds cause him, Ryan is clear, he's never killed a peacock. But Surrey isn't the only place that's been overtaken by peafowl. And in other cases...people have completely lost it.

OFFICER: This area's heavily populated with Peafowl.

RAFFERTY BAKER: This CNN piece documents the search for a peacock killer in Rolling Hills, California.

OFFICER: So the 50 birds that we have found have been killed in various ways. Either from pellets or BBs. Some of the birds were shot with arrows.

RAFFERTY BAKER: And then there's this story from Hawaii.

NEWS ANCHOR: Good evening and thanks for joining us for our one hour edition of KITV 4 Island Television news at 10:00. Well she admitted beating a peacock to death with a bat.

EARLE: I just couldn't believe we were in court let alone in a jury trial for a whole week with all of the publicity for this case. My name is Earle Partington, I'm a lawyer in Honolulu. I represented Sandra Maloney in the prosecution against her for killing a peacock.

RAFFERTY BAKER: And what was your first impression of Sandra?

EARLE: Oh very nice. She and her husband very nice people. They were just trying to live a quiet life in retirement and the peacocks were just driving her crazy. She couldn't sleep. There was a tree outside her condominium and in breeding season the peacocks would get in the tree and they sound like a woman being murdered in mating season. The ancient Chinese used them as burglar alarms.

RAFFERTY BAKER: Is any of this starting to sound familiar? Well here's where Sandra Maloney's case diverges from the situation in Surrey.

EARLE: Well she had just had it and she had a baseball bat aluminum baseball bat in her house and she went out and hit it once. She didn't hit it hard enough to kill it unfortunately, and it took a little while to die and she was a farm girl and she was going to bring it in and roast it, but some animal lovers saw her and were outraged and called police and she wasn't able to carry out her purpose

RAFFERTY BAKER: Did she share with you what those plans were? How she was going to prepare this and eat it?

EARLE: Well she was going to take it up defeather it you know take the parts out you don't want to roast and then roast it just like you would a pheasant. If you go online you could find plenty of recipes for peafowl. In fact I have had Peafowl in Asia, where it is eaten and it's quite good.

RAFFERTY BAKER: After a showy trial with several witnesses...

EARLE: The jury acquitted her in about 20 minutes. That is a very fast acquittal.

RAFFERTY BAKER: Meanwhile, back in Surrey, the city was starting to realize that it would have to play a more active role in managing the swelling neighbourhood conflict. After a few months of declaring there was nothing that could be done that the peafowl fell outside of its jurisdiction, that it was "a grey area" suddenly at the end of June, there was a plan put before city council.

RYAN: The corporate report. I don't think any of us saw coming.

MAYOR: I am going to ask counsel's indulgence to bring forward corporate report number R148, which is dealing with the peafowl relocation plan

RYAN: The council meeting starts and I see Lance over with this other woman I don't recognize.

MAYOR: I do believe I'll ask Mr. Rehal

JAS: Correct Madame Mayor, our plan is to move quickly and effectively to remove all peacocks.

MAYOR: Thank you...

RAFFERTY BAKER: Lance was with a woman named Roslyn Cassells who's running for Surrey city council. She doesn't live in the neighbourhood, but Roslyn had befriended some of the pro-peacocks folks, and she was distributing a leaflet laying out a plan for co-existence.

MAYOR: Councillor Gill.

COUNCILLOR GILL: Certainly Madame Mayor, I think that when I'm looking at the realities, the realities of noise, the realities of excrement and the realities of damage to property, I really do believe that there are neighbours that have been impacted more so than other neighbours

RYAN: And so they do a corporate report and all the councillors, they found unanimously to implement the peacock removal plan

MAYOR: Calling the question. All those in favour of the relocation action plan? Opposed. That's carried. Thank you very much. And as quickly as possible.

RYAN: At that point, the lady that was with Lance stands up and wants to speak.

ROSLYN: Madame Mayor, there's a number of people that would like to address council on this issue…

MAYOR: No it's a corporate report. I'm sorry it's not on that on the agenda. It's a corporate report.

RAFFERTY BAKER: Roslyn continued to press her point.

MAYOR: Ma'am I would ask you to respect the chair and the council. You will not speak at this meeting.

LANCE: And all the people that were voting got up place started running out.

MAYOR: please remove the citizen from the chamber.

LANCE: And then they called security because we got up and said, you know, we love the birds.

MAYOR: We'll adjourn while the citizen is removed. Thanks, Jas. Thank you.

ROSLYN: The birds have been there almost 50 years, their population is stable, if you remove some it will cause a rebound effect.

RAFFERTY BAKER: Despite the commotion, council did approve the plan to trap all of the peacocks in Sullivan Heights. More than two months later, none of the traps have been set, and neighbours aren't exactly sure how they'll work.

TJ: So it's like a cage. Like four by three?

RAFFERTY BAKER: four feet by three feet?

TJ: Yeah.

RAFFERTY BAKER: And is it meant for a different kind of animal or where are they getting the traps? What kind of traps?

TJ: They're going to deliver it. City's going to deliver it to the people's house. So either they're going to customize it for peacocks. I don't know how it's going to work.

LANCE: When you try to take the birds. You're going to injure the birds. You're going to probably kill some of the birds. You're probably kill some of the babies, which is ridiculous

RAFFERTY BAKER: Lance, of course, strongly objects to the plan. Ryan is cautiously optimistic. But TJ, he's already planning for life after the birds.

TJ: Since I heard the news, I personally bought my new barbecue up there, and so I'm happy so I'm not whenever the barbecue, I see the shit sitting the poop everywhere on the glass.

RAFFERTY BAKER: So you're really optimistic. They haven't even started yet and you've already bought a new barbecue.

TJ: Oh yeah, we're going to love. So we're going to enjoy our backyards now.

RAFFERTY BAKER: I'm just wondering if there's even just the littlest part of you that might miss them when they're gone.

TJ: Oh yeah definitely. But still it's We're going to miss a little part but the other side, It's going to be a big relief for the whole neighbourhood, what we're dealing from the last ten years.

RAFFERTY BAKER: Lance has a different vision of the future. He says he won't look too kindly on any neighbours who allow city traps on their property.

LANCE: Oh, it'll be a big battle. It's going to be a huge battle, huge battle. It's going to be super battle. This isn't over. Yeah. We love this place and those birds aren't going anywhere.

[Music]

AMT: The documentary A Fowl Feud was produced by the CBC's Rafferty Baker and The Current documentary editor Joan Webber. [Squeaks] They're still there. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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Uighurs in Canada fear deportation after China's crackdown on Turkic Muslims

Guests: Guy Sainte-Jaques, Nathan Vanderklippe

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music]

VOICE 1: They want to exterminate Muslim people, Muslim writing, Muslim dress. They're planning a nation that's homogeneous. Everyone has to be Chinese.

[Music]

VOICE 2: There are maybe up to a million people being held in these camps and it doesn't seem to matter that there's no legal basis for arbitrarily detaining people and forcing them to go through this kind of re-education.

VOICE 1: In the camp they taught us the national anthem praising Moa Zedong wishing a thousand years of life to the president Xi Jinping and the overall great history of China the [unintelligible].

AMT: Well as you heard up to one million Muslims are currently detained in those Chinese facilities according to a new report from Human Rights Watch and similar findings by the United Nations. China denies that and calls any facilities in question vocational training centers. But many Muslim Uighurs call them concentration camps. Uighurs are a Central Asian ethnic group in the far west province of Xinjiang and they have already had a long troubled history with the Chinese government. Now they say China's doubling down on its suppression of Uighurs and other Muslim minorities, repressing religion and culture, surveiling communications and taking people away to those camps. Uighurs in Canada say they are terrified for their loved ones back in China and often too afraid to even contact them for fear of endangering their safety. Our producer Ali Janes met a group of Uighurs as they gathered earlier this month for a barbecue in Toronto.

SOUNDCLIP

MEHMET: My name is Mehmet Tohti. I'm the founder of Uighur Canadian Association. One hundred fifty Canadian Uighurs been together to discuss our problems especially the problems back home share our stories.

AIZEZ: My relatives they first stop contact with me in 2017 in July. They told me don't contact me or don't write anything any message to me, like I received some message and I am not able to contact any more. Until now I don't know where they are. How many relatives in concentration camp.

MEHMET: Almost a year and a half Canadian Uighurs lost contact with their family members, loved ones, there is no way to make any communications through phone or email or text messages. And they no ways to get any information out about the well-being of their family members. So everyone is going through a tough time.

NIGARA: She got a phone call in April around 2 a.m. It was her mom, they started and he made him almost crying on the other side. She said she thought her father died but no. The reason why the mother was trying was the police came to their house and took my mom's youngest brother. They don't know the reason. They took the black things on his head and, like a hood, they did that to her youngest brother [cries]. Ever since she doesn't know anything about what happened in the family.

MEHMET: Everyone is feeling quite sad and without knowing the well-being of their family members without knowing the situation of their family members whether they live or back. This is a very highly emotional period for the Uighur Canadians.

AIZEZ: I was crying how many times I don't know. Even at night I can't sleep the whole night. I can't sleep and my husband always looking at me, 'why, stop please' but I can't. It's so sad [cries]. I don't know they are alive or died. I don't know any information.

NIGARA: It actually affects her sleep at night. She said she doesn't know about her dad and her three brothers and her sister's daughter and two kids. She doesn't know anything about them. And it's been a year since she didn't even contact them anymore.

[Quran recital]

MEHMET: This is the only ways that we can help one another. Now we're a very small community in Canada and if we do not share the pain right now it is really difficult to take.

ALIYE: [Crying] Sister in law is gone. I don't know they are in the camp or no. I wish world would listen to us and help our people.

MEHMET: Uighur Canadians are asking Canadian government to speak up and condemn this kind of 21st century atrocities and also use all international arena, U.N. and others, just to mobilize our allies to condemn China's government to stop this concentration camp and urge China's government to release all the victims.

AMT: Some voices from the Uighur community at a barbecue in Toronto. They're are not only concerned about their loved ones in China they're worried about Uighurs who have made refugee claims here in Canada and are waiting to find out if they'll be deported back to China.

SOUNDCLIP

ABIRA: So this is a letter from government. This one tells me when I have to leave.

AMT: That's 18 year old Abira. She received her deportation order in July. Activists brought her case to Global Affairs Canada and now she's been allowed to stay until her mother's refugee appeal is decided. We spoke with her in her home in Mississauga.

SOUNDCLIP

ABIRA: When I first got the notice I was really scared. You know I'm 18 right now and I'm about to go to university but after I got this letter I just feel like my life is over. If I go back to China there is no life. I don't have any family back home and if I go back they are definitely going to put me in the camp. Because I left China for like four years now and then I haven't go back and then I also did a refugee claim in Canada that will cause a problem. They're like putting people in the camp who from other countries, everyone from other countries. My mom making laghman. It's a really popular food in Xinjiang and all Uighurs love to eat. After this happens, every night I couldn't sleep. I feel depressed. I cried. And I also see my parents. My dad, he's depressed every day. You can't see any happiness in his face. My mom, her hair fall off. [mom and daughter talking]. She say that she couldn't sleep and she feel that she done something wrong bringing me to Canada. I'm still worried about my mom's claim, because if they reject us again, we're definitely going to send back to China. We just want somewhere to protect us. We just want somewhere to welcome us. We just want a home.

AMT: That is a refugee claimant by the name of Abira in Mississauga. We asked Immigration Refugees and Citizenship Canada if it will continue to deport Uighurs to China. It replied that "Canada has not considered any special program for Uighurs." It referred us to the Canada Border Services Agency but it wasn't able to respond before today's program. We should note that Germany has stopped deporting Uighurs to China because of what concerns have been raised there. The detention camps in western China are hardly being publicized by the government there but journalists such as my next guest have been finding ways to document their existence and tell the stories of people who've been inside. Nathan Vanderklippe is the Globe and Mail's Asia correspondent. He joins me from Beijing. Hello.

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Good morning.

AMT: What can you tell us about the internment camps in Xinjiang and what's happening inside of them?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Yes we now have over the course of the last year or so we've been able to sort, through the accounts of people who have been in these camps and then been released, we've been able to piece together some information about what is happening. There is of course a tremendous amount that we don't know. And there's also a tremendous amount of variability in the system. It's not one system for political indoctrination. It's multiple systems some of which act in some ways as night schools some of which act as internment centers. But basically what we know is that in the places that act as internment centers you have people who are aren't very regimented schedules seemingly like a military type of schedule. Rising early in the morning, cleaning their their bunks, chanting Long Live Xi Jinping before having breakfast and then spending their days doing things like memorizing the Chinese constitution, studying the Chinese language and engaging in lengthy sessions of rebuking things like a religion that people are told to recite is stupid and, then also engaging in self-criticism and often public self-criticism.

AMT: Human rights organizations say that they haven't seen this kind of thing a re-education like this since the days of Mao.

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: In particular I think they're referring to the scale of this. There have been in the past smaller scale versions of political indoctrination. What has happened in the last year or two is that the scale of this has expanded tremendously. And there has also been an establishment of some permanence to the construction of buildings and the expansion of buildings that appear to be permanent institutions designed for this purpose.

AMT: And who are they putting in these camps?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: So it appears to be largely if not exclusively ethnic minorities. One instructor who I spoke with was that it was at a camp in northwestern Songjiang where they were she said there were 2500 people. From what she could see there nobody was of the sort of dominant Han Chinese ethnicity. The people in that particular area were largely of the Kazakh ethnicity and other places Xinjiang nearly half of the population of Xinjiang is made up of the Uighurs. Many of them have also been brought into these sorts of centers.

AMT: What about accounts of people being tortured or dying in these centers?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: That's not clear and at this point it doesn't appear like there are accounts of systematic torture or systematic execution of that nature. But it does appear that there is systematic maltreatment that noncompliance can sort of merit very very harsh treatment. Former detainees have had described people having their heads placed into buckets of water and ice water as as punishment, put into solitary confinement as punishment, shackled to the wall as punishment. So it is clear these sorts of things are being employed.

AMT: You've taken many reporting trips to Xinjiang. Can you give us a picture of what it's like for the Uighurs who live there now?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Yes the last time I was there I described it to myself as the land of flashing lights because this is a large area. It's almost the size, it's larger than Quebec. And has a population of 23 million people. So it's large it's spread out. It is dominated by large desert and plains areas that are that are not populated. So it's quite a relatively sparsely populated area of China. But it's difficult to find a place where you don't see flashing lights. And in the cities there has been a sort of a mass effort to construct what are called convenience police stations. These are small police stations that are built at very regular intervals sometimes on street sides sometimes inside apartment compounds. There are police checks stops that are placed in very close proximity to each other on roads inside cities as well as on freeways. And those check stops resemble airport security with full body scanners, facial recognition, enabled picture scanners, ID scanners. And then in the cities as well you have shopkeepers and this sort of thing who have been equipped with weaponry and made to train on using this weaponry ostensibly under the guise of sort of antiterrorist training. You have large vehicles, armored vehicles that slowly patrol the streets at a walking pace. So that the security the security presence is is well it's omnipresent as is the surveillance presence particularly across some places of worship of course there are often many surveillance cameras.

AMT: What kind of technologies is China using to do that kind of monitoring?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Well there is a lot of boasting about the degree of technical sophistication that is being used in Xinjiang. It sometimes is difficult to know what is real and what is actually being used and what is what is boasting. But there have been articles for example written the state press about the use of artificial intelligence networks that are combined with surveillance networks and this sort of thing to do a sort of pre-crime enforcement, where that where they're looking for people who perhaps are making certain purchases through online purchases doing certain things on their phones and can be brought in for that reason. There's also police in Xinjiang. Many police are equipped with handheld scanners that they can use to scan the automatically scan the contents of people's smartphones to test to look for what would be considered by the Chinese state suspicious materials. There is the use of facial recognition. So in many ways the tools of digital authoritarianism that China is developing seem to be a good a good test of that.

AMT: And why is China doing this? What the government is saying it's up to?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Well the government has positioned this as a response to extremism. And the way that this has discussed by Chinese scholars and more recently by representatives of the Chinese government is that extremism is effectively a public health crisis and it needs to be pulled out by the roots and needs to be eradicated like a virus.

AMT: We did ask the Chinese embassy in Canada about the detention centres and they gave us a statement and I'll just read a part of it. Here's a quote: "A few overseas media smeared China's measures to fight terrorism and crimes in Xinjiang" and then the quote goes on to say "People of all ethnic groups in Xinjiang cherish their peaceful and prosperous life any rumor and slander will turn out to be futile." What do you think of that statement?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Yes I mean I was brought into the foreign ministry here and told that if people read my reporting they might think that I was trying to spark a civil war in China. So this is the sort of response that we're hearing from the Chinese government. But this is the way the Chinese government is prosecuting this as an exercise in maintaining stability, as an exercise in sort of promoting national identity national unity. It's in some ways a nation building exercise, a nation building exercise that goes back to the communist revolution and is now being ramped up again in Xinjiang.

AMT: You say that you were brought in by the Foreign Ministry in Beijing but you were also picked up and detained, were you not? In the region?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: I was, last year. Yes that's right. I was in the western Xinjiang and I was attempting to do some reporting and I was detained for several hours. I was questioned by the Ministry of State Security, by the secret police. They asked to look through my pictures which they did and they asked to look through my laptop and they ended up taking my laptop for 12 hours and then giving me an escort to the nearest hotel that would take me two hours away in the middle of the night.

AMT: yet you continue to report on this.

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: In some ways it goes to the heart of China's modern ambitions. Some of your listeners may have heard of the One Belt One Road initiative. It's sort of a sweeping initiative to extend the reach of the Chinese development model of Chinese capital, these sorts of things. Xinjiang as a central node in that. It's a place that's bordered by India and Russia and Pakistan. And so it's a central node in sort of China's geographic reach to its west. And so what's happening there is important.

AMT: Nathan well thank you for your work there. Thank you for speaking with me today.

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Thank you for having me.

AMT: Nathan Vanderkllipe is the Asia correspondent for The Globe and Mail. We reached him in Beijing. Well as we heard Uighurs in Canada have been calling on the government to do more to address the plight of workers in China. In a statement to us Global Affairs Canada wrote "Canada has consistently called on the Chinese government to address concerns about the widespread restrictions on freedom to worship and observe religious traditions and about repressive state policies and coercive police actions against Muslim Uighurs in Xinjiang province." But of course when it comes to talking to China about human rights it gets complicated. Guy Saint-Jacques Knows that too well he was the Canadian ambassador to China from 2012 to 2016. He is now a senior fellow at the University of Alberta's China Institute and he's in Montreal hello.

GUY SAINT-JAQUES: Good morning.

AMT: How do you think the Canadian government should respond to these reports of repression and mass detention of Muslims in China?

GUY SAINT-JAQUES: Well I would say that the first as we heard from Nathan, the situation has got worse in recent years and at the outset I think that the Chinese government had legitimate concerns about security and terrorism because there were some major incidents in recent years. But I must say that the measures that have been put in place are very worrisome and they run the risk of creating long term resentment. The Canadian government of course is following the situation very closely. When I was there we would use all the opportunities to raise our concern and point out that the problems at all these measures could create. For instance I went to [unintelligible] on a trip I met with local authorities. I raised those concerns. I did the same thing with the senior government officials back in Beijing including inside the China Communist Party. In fact I can tell you that Prime Minister Trudeau during his visit when he came in at the end of August 2016 also raised human rights concerns. I would say that when we have to do is to work closely with likeminded countries, to share information, to talk about measures that could be done. I think that the recent report by the United Nations was very useful. And I know that these concerns were raised in fact the government also asked the Chinese government to respond. But in terms of what else can we do, well I think we have to continue to use all opportunities to discuss the issue express our serious concerns. I think it would be premature to talk of sanctions because we would need more information on that. I've seen that some U.S. senators have started to discuss the issue. They are still far from having legislation in place and in any case our laws are different from those of the U.S. and it's more difficult to sanction individuals.

AMT: Well let me ask you about that because yes according to the news yesterday two members of Congress, Republicans, sent a letter to the commerce secretary in Washington pressing him to impose limits on certain technologies by U.S. companies that are used by the security forces to maintain surveillance and these mass internment camp systems. If that's the kind of action, or at least demand for action coming out of the United States is there a way for Canada to get onboard that? Does Canada have to think about who else is pushing if it's going to push hard?

GUY SAINT-JAQUES: Well I'm sure that other countries are looking at measures and that my former colleagues in Ottawa are looking at all this. I should add that in fact we have in place measures to limit the export of sensitive technologies to China I am aware of a number of cases where we cancel export permits because we thought that the technology could have what we call dual use and be used for other purposes. And that's something that we should be looking into very carefully.

AMT: I'm wondering where trade plays a role in all of this. So we saw what happened when Canada raised the issue of human rights loudly with Saudi Arabia. How gingerly is Canada walking around this?

GUY SAINT-JAQUES: If you look at how China behaves you have to be concerned about how you will express your positions. In fact I must know that when I was there as ambassador a number of European countries became almost silent on issues related to human rights. I fear that the good part it is driven by the fear of retaliation. The Chinese government can be brutal in terms of retaliation. I recall that Norway was penalized because the Nobel Peace Prize had been given to [unintelligible]. That's why I say that we have to be in good company. When I was in Beijing I would meet with colleagues from other countries. We would discuss you know various problems and exchange views on the best way to approach the Chinese. But I think in the case of Canada for sure we have been using all high level meetings and all parties to raise our concerns.

AMT: We also heard from a woman named Abira the young woman facing deportation. That is something Canada does have control over. Germany has halted all deportations of Uighurs. Why do you think Canada has not done the same?

GUY SAINT-JAQUES: Well you know I'm not an expert on this. This is an issue that is more relevant to the Immigration Department. But what I can tell you is that I'm sure that officials there are kept informed of developments. You know there are reports that are sent by the Canadian embassy in Beijing explaining the situation on the ground. And so I assume that the judges when they look at individual cases take these questions into consideration. But again you know this is look on an individual basis. And so danger has to demonstrate why he or she fears that you could be subject to detention. But I would add that the way that things are evolving, and again as we have heard from Nathan, things have got worse in the last two years. And I think that probably the attitude of the judges will change because of the new information that is coming up.

AMT: We heard Uighurs in Canada concerned that anything they say here could have an effect on their families there. How does that play into how Canada looks set its own ability to speak up?

GUY SAINT-JAQUES: I think that the subject of interference is going to be more and more discussed in Canada because we are aware that members of the Uighur community - some of them you know become Canadian citizens - have been contacted and pressure has been put on them to provide information on what they do, provide information on where they live and so on. It's a question of what kind of behavior is this. We have to keep track of those attempts to put pressure on the Canadian especially Canadians and raised these concerns with the Chinese government.

AMT: Guy Saint-Jacques, thank you for your perspective on this.

GUY SAINT-JAQUES: Thank you very much.

AMT: Guy Saint-Jacques is a former Canadian ambassador to China and a senior fellow at the University of Alberta's China Institute. That's our program for today's day with radio 1 for cue the Dirty Nil from Dundas Ontario were named Breakthrough Group of the Year at the 2017 Juno Awards and they're going to be on queue today with their new album. We welcome your views on the discussions we have here on The Current. If you want to get in touch with us to let us know what you think about what you've been hearing today or any other time you can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook go to our Web site cbc.ca/thecurrent And click on the contact link. Remember you can always take the current with you to go on the CBC Radio app you can browse through past episodes and start listening in just a few seconds. If you missed my conversation yesterday with legendary journalist Bob Woodward you will find it there on the CBC Radio app. We talked about the revelations in his new book Fear: Trump in the White House and it's worth noting that book is the fastest selling book in years. More than seven hundred fifty thousand copies sold first day out. You can listen to what Bob Woodward had to say to me on the current on our website as well cbc.ca/thecurrent, or, you can listen on the podcast lots of options there. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti thank you for listening to The Current.

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Thursday September 13, 2018 Full Transcript

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