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The AIH Transcript for September 12, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight…

CO: Notwithstanding room only. Angry protesters and MPPs were removed from the Ontario legislature today as the premier invoked that controversial clause to override a court ruling for the first time in the province's history.

JD: Peace at last. After more than a decade, Ethiopia's top dissident and rebel army leader has finally returned home. And tonight he will tell us why he's rejecting violence and embracing the future.

CO: Bad conduct star. The EU turns a spotlight on Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán and his government and votes to take action against what it calls a systematic threat to democracy.

JD: Their place or mine. Nature lovers in Minnesota fear for the future of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area after the Trump administration opened up an area on its doorstep for mining exploration.

CO: At bottom it’s just a regular healthy fish. But when it's not at bottom, the newly discovered deep sea dwelling snail fish has a lot of trouble handling the pressure — or the lack thereof.

JD: And…Bringing back a Floyd of memories. A B.C. man will never forget listening to Dark Side Of The Moon on the beach with family when his chilling was interrupted by a chilling sight — a giant snake monster. As It Happens: The Wednesday Edition. Radio that urges that Pink Floyd loving monster Hey, creature, leave them kids alone.

[Music: Theme]

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Part 1: Nothwithstanding clause: NDP, Nothwithstanding clause: PC, Hungary vote

Nothwithstanding clause: NDP

Guest: Marit Stiles

SOUNDCLIP

[MPPs BANGING ON DESKS]

SPEAKER: I’ve asked the leader of the opposition to come to order. I am warning the leader of the opposition if she doesn’t come to order she will leave.

JD: That was the sound in the Ontario provincial legislature today just before NDP Leader Andrea Horvath was removed from the chamber. Soon others followed as many of her colleagues in the official opposition were also escorted out. They were protesting the introduction of legislation to slash the size of Toronto city council. Legislation that was struck down by a superior court judge on Monday. The bill was tabled again today, this time using the Charter's notwithstanding clause. NDP MPP for Toronto-Davenport Marit Stiles was among those removed from the legislature. We reached her shortly thereafter at Queen's Park in Toronto.

CO: Ms. Stiles, that was quite a scene today in Queens Park in Ontario's legislature. What do you think you accomplished?

MARIT STILES: Well, what I hope we accomplished was sending a very clear message to Doug Ford and his government that we will not just stand by. That we will use every tool we have to oppose this really chilling bill that he's introduced. It's going to waive our Charter rights so he can pass a bill that really is just about a political vendetta he has and I hope today that we brought that message loud and clear.

CO: But now describe what you did? Give us a picture of what it is that the NDP in Ontario did today?

MS: This afternoon the minister introduced a bill and we immediately began to voice our loud disapproval. One of the things that we can do in the House is to slam our desks or our hands on our desks and we did do that, and we kept doing it until the speaker actually named us and when the speaker names you the sergeant at arms comes to remove you from the house.

CO: So each of you is escorted one by one?

MS: That's correct. We were kicked out and, you know, I think an interesting parallel here is that this morning in Question Period the galleries were full of people who had come to watch and express their disdain for the government and their actions and to be here to listen and when they express their concerns loudly they were not only just escorted out, but several people, some seniors, were actually handcuffed and escorted out that way. And so I think, you know, at least I wasn't handcuffed I was walked out by the sergeant at arms and I was I was proud to be.

CO: But some of your colleagues in the NDP were not removed. Why is that?

MS: Well, we need to make sure there are enough people in the house that we could actually continue to debate the bill, otherwise the government could move the bill through very quickly because it's not over yet. This is just the first reading of this bill and we intend to use, again, whatever tools and measures we have at our disposal to try to hold this bill up and hopefully, hopefully convince this government that they're headed in the wrong direction.

CO: But you weren't just expressing your view were you? I mean, neither were those in the gallery. The noise you were making and the disruption you created in the legislature was to stop this from proceeding that this was disruptive, it wasn't dialogue, it wasn't protest.

MS: You know, unfortunately over the last say 20 years governments in Ontario have really watered down a lot of the tools that the opposition has to actually change and debate legislation. And so there are very few tools available to us, that's the truth. And I guess what's important here is that this bill is not just about the city council elections in Ontario and in Toronto, it has larger ramifications. It's a very chilling bill. The Premier has actually said that he will use these measures again if he needs to, if the judiciary or anyone else stands in his way that's vastly undemocratic. It really is about our rights and our freedoms as Canadians. And so we're going to continue to make that heard. And yes, we will use whatever means we have to draw attention and also, frankly, to shame the other side because there are many Conservative MP we believe who feel ashamed of this measure are being invoked in this way and we're hoping that they are going to do the right thing and vote against their government.

CO: You call it a chilling bill but this is what Caroline Mulrooney says, who is the attorney general, she says that basically the law they're trying to pass comes out of Section 92 of the Charter, which gives jurisdiction over municipal affairs to the provincial government. So the bill, the law they're trying to pass is doing exactly that. That was the purpose of it was to cut Toronto council in half. It appears legally to be within the jurisdiction of the province. That's what Caroline Mulrooney saying. What do you say to that?

MS: Well, I think the attorney general should be paying more attention to what's the superior court judge that in the ruling just two days ago. The superior court judge said that this bill violated people's rights. And so that is why this Government is now invoking this notwithstanding clause. And part of this is because this bill was brought forward in the middle of an election period here in Toronto and it's kind of like changing the rules in the middle of the game. You know, if they want to appeal the decision of the Superior Court judge that's one thing. But Premier Ford has actually called into question the very right of the judiciary to weigh in on these kinds of decisions, which I think is going to be unnerving for a lot of people.

CO: As you say a lot of extreme rhetoric this week. But nonetheless he is within his right, within the legal right to use the notwithstanding clause. So when you say it's chilling and this is scary, you're talking about things that are within the jurisdiction of this government, are you not?

MS: Invoking the notwithstanding clause in a case like this is an unprecedented abuse. It is the first time in Ontario's history that any premier has ever tried to use this clause and I think that says a lot. This is not something that you bring out just because you're unhappy about the way things worked when you were a city councillor at Toronto City Council. And our concern is if we let them get away with this one they're going to continue to use this kind of clause again and again if they just don't get their way and, you know, this is a democracy. Premier Ford is not the king.

CO: The premier applauded, Premier Doug Ford, applauded when Andrea Horvath was escorted out today. The level, the intensity of the debate, the rancor that we saw, what we're seeing is this going to be this session is going to be like? Are we going to see that you're going to prevent what is essentially majority government from pursuing its mandate?

MS: I think as the official opposition it's our right and our duty to voice our concerns. We asked lots of questions this morning about potential broader ramifications and implications of the legislation and we were really unhappy with the responses we got. We will keep it up, we will keep raising the debate around this issue. I've had 500 e-mails in 24 hours from people asking us to stand up against this regressive move by this government. So we're going to keep on doing that. And yes, it is very ugly in there, it is not a happy place to be, but I think that Ontarians are hoping that we're going to push back as hard as we can.

CO: Ms. Stiles, we'll be watching. Thank you.

MS: Thank you.

JD: Ontario NDP member of the provincial parliament for Toronto-Davenport Marit Stiles. Ms. Stiles was one of many NDP MPPs removed from the Ontario legislature this afternoon. They were protesting Premier Doug Fords use of the notwithstanding clause of the Constitution to pass a bill that will cut the size of Toronto city council.

Nothwithstanding clause: PC

Guest: Ginny Roth

JD: Ginny Roth thinks the Premier did the right thing by making sure this bill gets passed. Ms. Roth is a former Ontario PC party campaigner and staffer. She is now a senior consultant with Crestview Strategy. We reached Ginny Roth in Toronto.

CO: Ms. Roth, should we start to get used to this kind of scene in Queen’s Park with Doug Ford as Ontario's premier?

GINNY ROTH: You know, I think bold action elicits a response, and that's what we're seeing today. You know the Premier was elected with a strong mandate for pretty serious change. He is enacting a bunch of that change and he's not letting a judge who made a ruling that he disagreed with stand in the way and there’s gonna be those who don't like that. Now the people at Queen's Park today, there were some activists demonstrating, I don't think, I don't happen to think that they represent, you know, a plurality of Ontario, but we'll see.

CO: You say that he had a mandate but he never said he was going to do this to the Toronto council, he is going to cut in half. We never heard that as part of his mandate. So why should people support this as being something that he was elected to do?

GR: I think because it speaks to the flavour of what he spoke a lot about on the election trail, which was finding efficiencies, reducing the size and cost of government, you know, getting some of the status quo hewing to doing business as usual out of politics and bringing in change and bold decision making and people who are willing to make tough decisions. I think this is one of those tough decisions. So I think there's a lot of, you know, his mandate is still really fresh and his majority is large and so there's still some political will. You know, he’s newer in his term, he hasn't done a lot to turn off large cohorts of voters yet so because he has that political will still I think he can do things that are a little more out of the box and, you know, it doesn't hurt that on this matter of policy — shrinking Toronto City in half —anyone who's watched some of the debates that goes on at city council doesn't have time for it because frankly they're disorganized. You know, it’s a lot of blowhards not getting much done. And it's really hard to argue publicly in favour of more politicians.

CO: We're in the middle of the election campaign, we're just weeks away from the vote. And it appears that what some have said, this is some kind of a political vendetta on the part of Doug Ford. In fact, the judge himself said this seemed to be passed out of pique than policy. So isn't there a lot of evidence to point to that this is something, even if it's necessary and efficiency, is not something you do in the middle of an election campaign?

GR: Well, a couple of things. First of all, the judge's ruling ran contrary to what every legal scholar predicted.

CO: Can I ask you what legal scholars are you referring to?

GR: I don't know their names but it's broadly been reported.

CO: No, it hasn't been. No. I'm sorry it hasn't. This is something Mr. Ford said the other day that every legal expert had agreed on this.

GR: I can pull up their names.

CO: They all agreed? Every legal expert agreed that this was…

GR: I didn’t say every legal expert. Of the legal experts who spoke out in the weeks prior in the media predicted how this would go, a majority were predicting that it would very clearly be deemed to be consistent with the Constitution because broadly people agree that municipalities had a constitutional purview of the provinces. That's how our Constitution is written, and broadly people agree with that.

CO: Let me ask you why did the judge then say, Judge Belobaba, asked the Crown in the court room he said ‘What is your evidence that this is necessary? What is your evidence that this is consistent with the Charter?’ And what he said in his decision, the response he got was quote “crickets.” So if there are so many legal experts who said this was completely legal within the right of the Charter why was the Crown unable to give those arguments when it was before the judge? Maybe he would rule differently had he you heard those arguments?

GR: Yeah, I’m glad you quoted that portion of the ruling because I think it betrays a bit of personal bias on the part of the judge. I mean, he's basically poking fun at a premier who I think he very clearly doesn’t like very much.

CO: Well, if he's poking fun at all, he's pointing out that the Crown could not answer the question.

GR: He made a pejorative, silly reference to crickets. I mean, that's not exactly professional language to use. I think, again, I think betrays a bit of a bias on the part of the judge. And, you know, all of this is somewhat irrelevant in so far as the premier, you know, in invoking the notwithstanding clause is using a tool, it's part of the Constitution, a section of the Constitution its prerogative to do that.

CO: We saw Queen's Park in chaos. We saw demonstrations outside. You say it's a fringe minority. It didn't look like that. Lots of people, an elderly woman was escorted out in handcuffs. We saw the opposition escorted out one by one. All of this just to change the number of city councillors in the middle of an election. From a political strategist point of view — and you are conservative strategist — does this really work politically? Is this really a good idea?

GR: I think so. I think for the people who voted for Doug Ford, the people who continue to support Doug Ford and his party, those kinds of measures — cutting the size of government in half — that’s actually a pretty big deal. And I think it's because, provincially anyway, it's been over a decade of Liberal governments who refuse to make those tough decisions. And I think they view this as one of those tough decisions and therefore they view it as a strong leader taking action on his mandate.

CO: And this is only Bill 5. It is only five weeks into his into his term. There is other legal action out there against his sex education bill, against his decision on the carbon tax. Where are we going to be at Christmas?

GR: I think we're going to be in a place where people will be able to sort of look around and themselves and go ‘Ontario’s changed a lot in just a few short months.’ And I think the reason people are used to this is because it's not a traditional way of doing politics in Canada. Normally you get a new government, even if it’s a different partisan stripe, not that much change happens. And even people who took him at his word, it doesn't surprise just how quickly he's acted and just how strong he’s been.

CO: The same way that Donald Trump has surprised people?

GR: No, I don't think so. I think Donald Trump is racist and offensive to people around him. I don't think any — I certainly don't view Doug Ford that way. I don't think the majority of people in Ontario do either.

CO: But in the sense of getting — trying to change the way things are done, to get things done in an unorthodox way, to shake things up. You don't think that's similar? You don’t think he's tearing a page out of Donald Trump's handbook on that?

GR: No, I don’t,

CO: All right, we'll leave it there. Ms. Roth, thank you.

JD: Ginny Roth is a former Ontario PC party campaigner and staffer. She's now a senior consultant with Crestview Strategy. We reached her in Toronto. As It Happens requested interviews with Ontario's Attorney General Caroline Mulrooney and municipal affairs minister Steve Clark. Those requests declined.

[Music: 90’s Hip-Hop]

Hungary vote

Guest: Peter Nidermuller

JD: The EU is going after Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán. Today, members of European Parliament voted in favour of launching proceedings against Mr. Orbán’s government. That vote followed a report that said he was at quote “serious risk of breaching the EU's values” and the process might eventually lead to punishments for Hungary. But Mr. Orbán’s government has called today's vote “fraudulent” and some say it will only bolster his supporters. Peter Nidermuller is a Hungarian Member of European Parliament who voted to censure Hungary today. We reached Mr. Nidermuller in Strasbourg, France.

CO: Mr. Nidermuller, why did you vote in favor of this report today?

PETER NIDERMULLER: You know, because I think that the politics of the current Hungarian government is not the same as we usually follow in the European Union. The Hungarian Prime Minister announced that he would like to build an illiberal democracy. I think though that in Europe we don't need illiberal democracies, we need the usual European tradition of liberal democracy. On the other side, I'm Hungarian and I would like to see Hungary in the European Union. And if you are following the illiberal democracy, it’s something against the fundamental values and norms of the European Union. So my vote in favour of this report is going to help for Hungary to come back to the European family.

CO: But does it really? Because you look at how Mr. Orban, Viktor Orban, the prime minister what he is saying about this decision in the European Parliament that he's saying that this does not respect the Hungarian nation. He says that “you think you know better than the Hungarian people what the Hungarian people need.” He says that “they're trying to use extortion against Hungary who is only trying to defend its borders against illegal immigration and protect its rights.” This kind of language I'm sure plays well in Hungary where people do not want to see an outside body dictate what the laws should be in their country. Is that not the case?

PN: Of course this language of the prime minister has many supporters in Hungary, in the Hungarian society. But I would like to make it very clear, this report has nothing to do with Hungary. It's not an attack against Hungary. This is the critics of the politics of the Hungarian government. But on the other side, you know, it's really true what you mentioned, that the Hungarian prime minister with his very strong migration policy, there's a lot of support in Hungary. But, you know, you mentioned his words to defend Hungary against illegal migration. I have to correct that because we do not have illegal migration. We have refugees from different parts of the world and that's a very important role of a very important issue to help for the refugees who are fleeing from war and retribution.

CO: And I'll point out I was using his language there, a translation of his language. I guess my question is is that this report is good for Mr. Orban, isn't it? I mean, this gives him a platform to say that he is defending Hungarian values and that the European Parliament is trying to impose its will.

PN: Of course he can use it to his advantage in Hungary but, you know, on the other side politics is not only a national issue this is an international, a European issue. And just know Mr. Orban has very, very big troubles in his political assembly in the European Parliament to the European People's Party because many, more than a hundred members of the European People's Party, voted in favor of this report.

CO: This European People's Party bloc of which Prime Minister Orban's Fidesz party is as a member. Some prominent members of that group have said no that Mr. Orban is wrong, that they have voted in favour of this of this article 7 proceeding, but an awful lot of members of the European Parliament voted against the sanctions. So it looks like he has a lot of support in the European Parliament, doesn't it?

PN: I think so. He has some supporters. That's right. But, you know, the main point is that his supporters in the European Parliament, but also in the European politics, are people belonging to different far-right political parties and movements like for example in Italy the Italian minister of interior Mr. Salvini or Mr. Farage from the United Kingdom. Yes, you are right here some supporters. But still this is a minority in Europe and in the European politics. It's very important to emphasize that the traditional center-right political movements are against the far-right politics and the far-right politics of Mr. Orban.

CO: This proceeding, of this article 7 could take a very long time to have any effect or to come into play. So in the meantime what happens in Hungary? Do you see any political pressure being put on Mr. Orban and his party by virtue of this article 7 being launched?

PN: You know, this is just today, the voting took place today. So it's a very short time, but of course the opposition parties in Hungary and my party as well, we will try to explain for the people that this is a very decisive moment in European politics, that it is a clear sign that. Mr. Orban belongs to the political margin in Europe. And the third point is that we have to say to to the people, to the voters, that they have to make a decision between a free, democratic open Europe or between the Europe represented by Mr. Orban, which is a closed society which is very much authoritarian and very much anti-democratic.

CO: But given that stark choice between being part of a more inclusive Europe or a more exclusive Hungary, what side do you think Hungarians will land on?

PN: We will have the European Parliament election in May 2019. And just know if we had the election tomorrow morning I have no doubt that Mr. Orban would win this election. But, you know, we have some more months. Politics is always a kind of process and I'm absolutely convinced that in the election in 2019, we the supporters of the free, democratic and inclusive Europe will win this election. All Hungarians, every Hungarian know exactly how important is the free movement in Europe, how important are the democratic values, how important is media freedom and things like that. Of course it will be a big fight. It will be very hard work. But I'm very optimistic about the results of this fight.

CO: Mr. Nidermuller, thank you for speaking with us.

PN: Thank you very much for calling me.

CO: Good night.

PN: Good night.

JD: Peter Nidermuller is a Hungarian MEP. We reached him in Strasbourg, France. For more on the story go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient Beeps]

Pink Floyd/Ogopogo

JD: Apparently if you play the Pink Floyd album Dark Side Of The Moon while watching The Wizard of Oz weird things happen. For example, during the song Breathe when David Gilmore sings “Balanced on the biggest wave you race towards an early grave.” Dorothy loses her balance and falls into the pig pen on her aunt and uncle's farm. If that doesn't seem convincing to you maybe you have to see it for yourself. Also apparently, if you play Dark Side Of The Moon while watching Okanagan Lake — weird things happen. For example, you see a giant snake in the water that might be the legendary monster of the lake — Ogopogo. Last Friday while he and some family members were playing that album and watching that lake, a man named David Halbauer captured this video.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVID HALBAUER: You guys seeing that?

[BOAT ENGINE WHIRRING AND WATER SPLASHING]

DH: I can’t tell. I can’t tell what I’m seeing. We’re seeing that. I don’t know if I’m getting it though because I can’t see. The sun’s too bright.

JD: Unfortunately David Halbauer wasn't really getting video. It's very shaky and unsatisfying. Regardless, you do get glimpses of what he saw in Okanagan Lake, which he later described to global news as a quote “A dinosaur, like a giant snake.” A snake so giant he also said quote “I don't think I could put my arms around it.” Was it Ogopogo, which has been described by witnesses as resembling a sea serpent? Was it coaxed to the surface by Pink Floyd? Yes — to both.

[Music: Jazz]

Back To Top »

Part 2: Ethiopia rebel leader, Minnesota mining licenses

Ethiopia rebel leader

Guest: Berhanu Nega

JD: The last time Berhanu Nega was in Ethiopia was 11 years ago after spending nearly two years in jail as a political prisoner. When he was arrested Mr. Nega had just been elected mayor of Addis Ababa but the government denied his party victory and imprisoned him before he could assume office. After his pardon from prison, Mr. Nega fled to the United States and helped found a movement called Ginbot 7. The armed group operated out of Eritrea and has since been accused by Ethiopian authorities of small-scale terrorist plots. Mr. Nega himself was sentenced to death in absentia in 2009 for plotting to kill Ethiopian government officials. In 2015 he left his comfortable life as a popular university professor in the United States for Eritrea, and he took over as the commander of the armed group. Now the exiled opposition leader is finally back home. On Sunday, Berhanu Nega returned to Ethiopia where he was greeted by thousands of supporters. His return is part of a wave of rapid changes happening in Ethiopia. Since Prime Minister Abiy Ahmed took office in April he has introduced sweeping political reforms, released scores of imprisoned dissidents and declared that the state of war with Eritrea is over. This week, as we mentioned last night, the border between the two countries reopened for the first time in two decades. We reached Berhanu Nega in Addis Ababa.

CO: Mr. Nega, how did it feel to be back in your homeland, to be back in Ethiopia after all these years?

BERHANU NEGA: It feels good. I mean, this is an exciting time to be back. This is a time where everybody is hopeful about the future despite the fact that everybody knows that there are going to be a lot of challenges but at least there is the assumption that we should be able to solve our problems through debates and things of that nature rather than through violence and brutality. At least there seems to be some understanding that that is the only way that we can go forward. And there is a very interesting air of excitement.

CO: But for you this is particularly risky, isn't it? Because you're wanted, you were wanted on all kinds of charges that could have put you in prison, could have given you a death sentence. What risk do you take returning, believing in this amnesty believing in our Prime Minister Abiy and his commitment to this change? How confident, how concerned are you?

BN: I think it's good to see it in two ways. I mean, the first is that this change came after quite a bit of, you know, bloody civil disobedience campaign over the last three years which have made people in the country, as well as even people in the ruling party, realize that this cannot continue. This is not sustainable. The only way that we can keep this country together, the only way that we can live in peace is through democratization, through respect for basic rights, through tolerance and through debate and discussion rather than through violence. Because of that I don't expect any possible danger on the part of the government. But on the other hand, you know, change periods are always volatile and dangers could come from different places but this is a risk that one has to take. If your aim is to stabilize the country and to chart a long term future for a country, you have to assume that there are going to be some risks.

CO: You were committed for some time, as the leader of Ginbot 7, to destabilizing the government quote “by any means necessary” in order to put pressure on the government and the international community to come to a negotiation. You were involved in an armed struggle to achieve your political aims. What has changed for you?

BN: It depends upon where you start the story. I mean, you also realize that were the products of the 2005 election. We have been people who are committed to democracy and peaceful struggle from the get-go. We were never interested in violence. It is when it became clear that the government, after the 2008 election, when they realized that were going to lose, they brutally suppressed the results of that elections. They killed hundreds of people, imprisoned over 50,000 people. Then, you know, we have no other option but to fight by whatever means that we can. But it has never been a choice. In fact, we never consider ourselves as a purely military rebel group. That's why when the change comes, when the group in power openly declared that this kind of politics is over, that we are committed to democratization. Once we are convinced that they are serious, for us it was a very easy thing to just drop everything and join the political fray.

CO: I wonder just a personal question, because when you launched Ginbot 7, this movement ,you were at that time in the United States, you were teaching at a very liberal university, Bucknell, a very popular professor at the same time you had this double life. You started up a rebel group that was anything but pacifist, I mean, you had to, as you say, turn to armed struggle in order to achieve your goals. How did you reconcile those two sides of yourself over those years?

BN: Actually, anyone who understands carefully the teachings of the people like Gandhi and Martin Luther King, the choice has always been clear even for people like Gandhi that, you know, rather than sitting and tolerating and accepting this kind of tyranny that you have to fight. It is not only a right, it is also our responsibility to fight with whatever means you have to get rid of tyranny.

CO: But you were living in the United States as a refugee. You had been accepted there. And at the same time the United States was supporting the government that you were dedicated to overthrowing. And President Obama went to visit and declared a democracy and a partner against terrorism. How did you — up living in nine states — how did you live that dual identity?

BN: No, I mean, that is the irony of our world, isn't it. I mean, there are countries who declare their value is democracy, human rights and what have you, and then they sleep with absolutely brutal regimes all over the world. You know, for us it was a bit of a disappointment to hear Obama come and declare that they were democratic when he knows full well that that is not the case. It benefits the U.S. national security interest so the rest of the country, the rest of the population of Ethiopia be damned. And for me it was always clear, if I'm serious about democratization I cannot sit and just teach that stuff in school, I have to be part of this movement. And so for me it is a question of consistency between what I believe and what I do.

CO: Many people watching over these decades of war between Eritrea and Ethiopia could never understand why this destruction was possible, why this war was so prolonged creating all the problems it did. Do you think that really this is a lasting peace, that this is now over, this conflict, and that these two countries can now get on with peaceful existence?

BN: I hope so and I believe so. All these crises in this region, at least between within Ethiopia, between Ethiopia and Eritrea, is a product of a small minority group who was bent on holding onto power by any means. Once they were gone, I mean, it was just like a fog was lifted. I mean, everybody is now willing to sit down and talk. And these are people who are related. These are people with very, very similar culture who share languages, who share a very, very long history of civilization. That's why it was so easy. I think there is a commitment now, for all sides, that this should never happen again.

CO: Well, Mr. Nega the world is watching and wants to share in your optimism for the future for both Ethiopia and Eritrea. Thank you so much for speaking with us tonight.

BN: Thank you so much for giving me this opportunity.

JD: Berhanu Nega is the leader of Ginbot 7 an Ethiopian opposition group. We reached him in Addis Ababa.

[Music: Ambient Bells]

Face Transplant

JD: This morning in Montreal Dr. Daniel Borsuk and his team got a huge round of applause. As you may have heard on the news, Dr. Borsuk is the surgeon who performed Canada's first face transplant. After years of preparation he and his team performed the complex procedure on a man named Maurice Desjardins in May. A hunting accident had left Monsieur Desjardins face badly disfigured. He and his wife both cried when Dr. Borsuk told them a transplant might offer some hope. But Mr. Desjardins was not just the first Canadian to undergo a face transplant — he would also be the oldest. At a press conference this morning reporters wanted to know whether his age was a factor.

SOUNDCLIP

DOCTOR DANIEL BORSUK: With every type of surgery, regardless of age, it's based on how the patient is clinically. There isn't an age.Aand it depends on the general state of the patient. Now Maurice at 65 years old, he is the oldest recipient of a face transplant. But it's also, this guy, we put him through the wringer in terms of tests — every type of test you can imagine. We wanted to make sure this guy was in good health and he is in probably in better shape than I am because I've been working on this for three years. But he has a phenomenal shape and his needs were there. There was no other options for him, and there was no other chance of him having a normal life. So age aside, clinically and mentally, this guy was a great candidate.

REPORTER: From an ethical standpoint, does the transplant of a face, does it mean anything different to you than some other organ from the body?

DB: Well, as we like to say, there's a very famous ethicist Arthur Caplan — and Sharon Kirkey has mentioned this in their releases — that he likes to say that there's no poems written about a kidney, but there are poems written about a face. So, as you and I know, before you came to this press conference you Googled someone's name and you took a look at their picture. What did this person look like? So the importance of the face in the past 20 years of social media has really elevated in terms of social importance. And so the face has taken on a different element, it used to be in the times of our grandparents that your name, you know, his name meant something. Now people want to see your face. And so because of that there is a higher value that's been placed on these types of reconstructions to try to look the best version of ourselves.

JD: Dr. Daniel Borsuk led the team that performed Canada's first successful face transplant. Dr. Borsuk was speaking at a press conference this morning in Montreal.

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Minnesota mining licenses

Guest: Lukas Leaf

JD: It is a million acres of protected wilderness stretching across northeastern Minnesota where anyone in a canoe can truly lose themselves. And now some environmentalists say the Boundary Waters Canoe Area itself is at risk of getting lost. The Trump administration decided last week to reopen a large area on the BWCA's doorstep to mining exploration. And that could result in the building of a copper and nickel mine. Activists are worried that pollution from said mining could flow into the boundary waters. There is also concern that that development could affect Ontario's Quetico Provincial Park north of the U.S. border. Lukas Leaf is the executive director of Sportsmen for the Boundary Waters, which opposes mining in the area. We reached Mr. Leaf in Minneapolis.

CO: Mr. Leaf, at this stage we’re just talking about mineral exploration near the boundary waters. Why are you so concerned about what this means for that wilderness area?

LUKAS LEAF: Well, the boundary waters is a huge economic driver for the economy up in northeastern Minnesota. It's also a world-class hunting and fishing destination for many folks here in Minnesota and nationally as well. So we are concerned with this type of mining moving forward in Minnesota because it has a terrible track record of pollution with sulfuric acid and other toxic heavy metals called acid mine drainage. And this type of mining’s track record has always had some type of pollution. So we're extremely worried and disturbed by the recent announcement by the Trump administration.

CO: Because of the track record, because of how important it is — these are your concerns, but you do know specifically that this this exploration is a threat specifically to this area? What is your evidence to support that?

LL: Absolutely. Of the 14 mines currently operational or done in operation in the U.S., there has been some type of pollution — 12 of them with significant pollution — whether it's in an arid or an extremely water-rich environment like we have here in up north Minnesota. The Superior National Forest holds 20 per cent of the freshwater in the entire national forest system in the United States.

CO: But you are talking hypotheticals, aren't you? I mean, can you actually say that you know that this this exploration for minerals in this area close to the Boundary Waters will actually be a threat to that environment?

LL: It is absolutely a threat to the environment. Again, that goes back to the track record of this type of mining. Twin Metals Minnesota, which is, you know, currently now able to regain its mineral leases is owned Antofagasta, which is a Chilean mining company with a terrible track record of pollution, not only within their own country but now currently with the ability to mine here.

CO: But you do see differences, though? I mean, are there differences between how Chile treats its mining and how the United States treats it?

LL: Yes, we do have proper re review of the mining and proposals and it goes through rigorous environmental studies. So what happened last week is the Department of Agriculture cancelled the environmental assessment that was happening here and cut it short early.

CO: You talk about the Boundary Waters as being a huge economic driver in your state in Minnesota. Others are saying that mining itself would bring industry and industrial development with green jobs and work into the region, and that what you've been accused by many as being elitist, hypocritical in opposing mining when the area is depressed and needs the jobs. What do you say?

LL: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the jobs argument has been hugely polarizing here in Minnesota. You know, Twin Metals Minnesota on their website has stated that it's 650 jobs that it will be creating. Within the Northeastern Minnesotan outdoor economy we're looking at 10 times that, that are jobs that will be immediately affected and or lost if this type of mining were going to go in. And that is outfitters, lodges other businesses. It just far outweighs what Twin Metals is proposing here and the Boundary Waters is going to provide jobs in perpetuity compared to what this type of mining will provide for jobs that may last for 15 to 20 years. Again, we're not anti-mining whatsoever. We're just looking out for the traditions, the economic value that the Boundary Waters is, for future generations.

CO: Is it not possible for these two industries, for outfitters and the tourism to cohabit with the mining industry in northeastern Minnesota?

LL: All of the science and studies that we have say no. And that's why we are working towards making sure that this type of mining does not happen here in northeastern Minnesota.

CO: A final question concerning Canada. The north of the border the Boundary Waters becomes a park. It's very important to a lot of Canadians, Quetico Provincial Park. Should Canadians be worried about what the mining operations might mean?

LL: Absolutely. This is definitely a Canadian issue as well. The path of pollution that would happen from this type of mining flows directly into the border waters and into the Quetico as well. So this isabsolutely a Canadian issue. You know, this is the type of pollution that will flow all the way directly up through all of those border waters into existing waters up into the Quetico as well.

CO: We will be watching but we'll leave it there for now Mr. Leaf, thank you.

LL: Thank you.

JD: Lukas Leaf is the executive director of Sportsmen for the Boundary Waters. We reached him in Minneapolis.

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Dominic Leblanc Ethics Violation

JD: Canada's Intergovernmental Affairs Minister does not share the federal ethics commissioner's feelings about family. When Dominic LeBlanc was the fisheries minister he gave a multimillion dollar clam license to a company with ties to his cousin by marriage. Today, the ethics commissioner ruled on whether that violated rules barring ministers from making decisions that might benefit family members. Mr. Leblanc’s defence was that he didn't consider his wife's cousin family. But the commissioner felt the love. And he found Minister Leblanc to be in violation of the law. Here's the minister speaking earlier today.

SOUNDCLIP

MINISTER DOMINIC LEBLANC: I don't pretend to speak for the commissioner's office in terms of a penalty. I have read his report this morning. We received the report this morning. As I said, I accept, without reservation, his findings. Our obligations are to follow the rules. He determined that while no preferential treatment was given, and while no benefit in fact was created, I should have consulted his office before making a decision. One of my wife's 60 first cousins was involved in one of the proposals. I obviously didn't think that this was caught by the definition of relative or family in the act. The commissioner however has the responsibility to make those determinations. I accept his determination and I will ensure that going forward we work with the commissioner's office to ensure this doesn't happen again. As we've said many times, the idea of including a new participant in this fishery goes back to the previous conservative government. They had a very similar process whereby they would have issued an additional licence in this fishery. Our government feels strongly that Indigenous peoples should be able to participate and benefit from offshore fisheries, and this is one area where our government thought we should move ahead and we still remain committed to ensuring that Indigenous peoples can participate.

REPORTER: Is there a political price to pay, because you're the third Liberal minister that has violated ethics rules?

DL: So again, in terms of the repercussion the commissioner's office can speak to that. I read the report like all of you this morning and I will accept the report and obviously govern my future behaviour accordingly. I think what Canadians expect in a circumstance like this, when mistakes are made, that people accept those mistakes, own up to the mistakes. That's exactly what I'm doing.

REPORTER: But your cabinet seems to make more mistakes than others.

DL: I'm committing going forward to work with the commissioner's office. I think it's important to note that he confirms that no financial benefit was created in this circumstance and no preferential treatment was given.

REPORTER: Do the Liberals have ethics problems here?

DL: However I think we all have an obligation, all public office holders, all members of parliament have an obligation to follow the act. In this case the commissioner has determined that I could have done better and I accept that finding. Merci beaucoup. Thank you.

JD: Intergovernmental Affairs Minister Dominic Leblanc speaking to reporters in Ottawa.

[Music: Guitar Strums]

Black Album

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Part 3: Nova Scotia apple crop, Snail fish discovery

Nova Scotia apple crop

Guest: Phil Daniels

JD: Around this time of year when the air gets crisper and the nights get longer the leaves start changing — and that means it's apple picking time. This year however, in parts of Nova Scotia that is going to be difficult to do. According to the Nova Scotia fruit growers association between 40 and 50 per cent of apple crops were destroyed this year. It was even worse for Phil Daniels. Daniels is the owner of Daniel's U-Pick in Windsor Forks, Nova Scotia and that is where we reached him.

CO: Phil, first of all, I'm sorry about your apples.

PHIL DANIELS: Yeah, not much can be done about it. We're just trying to make the best of a bad situation.

CO: What were you able to salvage from your crop?

PD: Less than 1 per cent about. I normally have about 300 bins and I said I'll be lucky to have one.

CO: Really?

PD: 300 beans would be over 200,000 pounds and I've got less than 700.

CO: And what about your neighbours, what about the other orchards?

PD: They got hit not quite as hard but they've got maybe 10 per cent of a crop.

CO: But we know that in early June in Nova Scotia it was crazy weather — in Atlantic Canada it was crazy weather. So what happened? What did you get hit with in the way of weather?

PD: Frost. The apples froze — apples, pears, plums and grapes — everything froze on the early hours of June the 4th. It was about four or five hours it was down cold or stayed around minus 4 to minus 5 and everything froze and then two weeks later fell off the tree.

CO: And the fruit was already out? It was past the flowers?

PD: Blossoms were gone for at least a week or so, which is the most vulnerable time normally, blossom time, with the blossoms were gone and the little apples were formed on the tree and there was a bumper crop on the trees. So I would say there was so much fruit on the tree I would have taken over half of it off. It was just too much on there, they were like grapes.

CO: And this was not just the apples it that got hit, right?

PD: Everything. I lost all my pears, all my plums, all my apples and all our grapes. We have a winery as well now, just opened a couple months ago, you know.

CO: You have a U-Pick farm and no fruit to sell?

PD: 42^nd year in business but hardly anybody's came back. I think that the news about the frost has hurt me more than it’s helped me.

CO: What do you mean?

PD: Well, because what's happening is people say ‘There’s no sense in going to Daniel’s they got nothing. But I do have lots of produce but I don't have any on the tree.

CO: Well let's get the word out that Daniel’s U-Pick is still open for business.

PD: Still open and and there's lots of produce operating as a farm market. Even though the packing is sparse Daniel’s U-Pick is still alive and well and open. We still have lots of apples, pears, plums, squash apple cider. And now we have a winery so you can come down and have a meal. And we make our own beer, our own wine — specialize in pizza. So it’s still a fun day out. And I still have ladders in the tree and swings to swing from. It’s still a fun day at Daniel’s U-Pick. We even have a little airport down there you can watch the miniature planes flying. So still a fun day. There's just not much to pick.

CO: You're also telling the kids that they can go on a scavenger hunt and see if they can find any apples left.

PD: I tell the kids the apples are playing hide and seek. So it’s more of a challenge for the kids if they find an apple it's like a reward and they can eat the apple you only have to pay for it.

CO: You're keeping your spirits up then. Is that in your nature to do that? Is this seeing things as well, what you still as have supposed what you lost?

PD: Well, you know, I think it's my faith too, I still have hope, you know, and I don't let things get me down. It's not the only thing in the world. I mean, we all have to make a living but you don't have to let it oppress you or make you depressed or anything.

CO: Well if you're in farming things like this can happen all the time.

PD: They do every once in a while. They do, that’s right for sure. And you have to kind of roll with the blows — it's just another year. Some years you get a big crop, some years you get no crop. But, you know, time goes on. Life goes on just the same.

CO: Have you ever seen a season like — ever seen frost like that so late?

PD: I've never seen it that late in the year. I've never seen it in June get down that cold and stay long and do that much damage. I have lost my crop before. In 1998 I got hit by frost during apple blossom time and I lost about probably 95 per cent of the crop. I only had maybe five pounds to a tree. But this year I got less than one apple to a tree, which is just absolutely — I've talked to other growers in the area, they got hit too but I don't think anybody — I've never talked to anybody get hit as hard as I have.

CO: Just one question. Did you have insurance?

PD: I can't get insurance. I had it years ago and I collected about 30 years ago. And then 20 years ago I had a bad crop again and they wouldn't pay me. So I said, ‘If you're not going to pay me. There's no sense in having crop insurance.’

CO: So do you have some friendly banks down there?

PD: Well, unfortunately I went through a bankruptcy about 10 years ago, and now and I got my credit back. So now I can get a loan. I could borrow ten or twenty thousand which I probably will have to.

CO: Phil you really are rolling with the punches, aren't you?

PD: Yeah, but anyway I'm still being optimistic. Because of the winery I'm getting I'm getting people that I never had before and they're going down to have a lunch and a drink or what have you. Then on the way out they're buying something. So I’m picking up new customers I never had before and I still got a faithful few that come down to buy on the Farm Market, but I've lost my U-Pickers pretty much, which is over 50 per cent of my market. So I figure my sales are down about 75 per cent.

CO: All right everyone who’s listening get down to Daniel’s U-Pick and make a day of it.

PD: And still have a good day.

CO: Phil, best of luck to you.

PD: Thank you very much for your concern. I appreciate it. At Daniel’s U-Pick we’re still making it happen. You gotta keep looking up.

CO: Okay, Phil thanks.

PD: Keep making it happen.

CO: We will.

JD: Phil Daniels is an apple farmer and the owner of Daniels U-Pick in Windsor Forks, Nova Scotia. He lost 99 per cent of his crop this year because of freezing temperatures in June.

[Music: Ambient Bells]

Humboldt Home Opener

JD: Tonight is an emotional one in Humboldt, Saskatchewan as the Humboldt Broncos take to the ice. In April, of course, a semi-truck collided with the hockey team’s bus as it was on its way to a playoff game. Sixteen people were killed including players and coaching staff. Brayden Camrud was on that bus. He is one of two survivors to take the ice tonight in the team's first home opener since the crash. Earlier today Mr. Camrud spoke to CBC Saskatchewan about what tonight means to him.

SOUNDCLIP

BRAYDEN CAMRUD: After the accident happened and, you know, the minimal injuries that I sustained I thought that it was important for me to do my best and carry on a legacy for the guys who aren’t here anymore and for the guys who are unable to lace up their skates ever again. I want to be the best I can for them and I want to make all of them proud. I want to make the boys who aren’t here anymore, that I know who are with me, I want to make them proud, and I want to make the parents proud, to make my parents proud. Anybody who helped make a contribution in me getting better, I want to do it for them. I just — people sometimes take things for granted and I think this is a big opportunity for me to show some perseverance and to show people that I'm using them as my motivation to push myself to be the best person and player I can be. It's been different, you know, like expecting a lot of familiar faces obviously to be back this year with everything that happened. And, you know, the guys that we brought in this year are great people, all the younger guys in the new coach they're great guys and I'm excited to get the year started with them. At the same time, you know, it's been a lot of reflection on the past couple of years and all the memories I've made with the group the guys that we had last year — it's been a lot of different emotions so it feels good to be back in my final year. I know that people are proud of me for returning and they want the best for me. So I’m just going to try and be the best for my teammates and be the best for them.

JD: Humboldt Broncos centre Brayden Camrud speaking to the CBC earlier today. The Broncos take the ice tonight in their hometown for the first time since the deadly crash last April.

[Music: Somber Guitar]

Snailfish Discovery

Guest: Thomas Linley

JD: Researchers from Newcastle University have recently discovered three new species of snailfish in the deep Atacama Trench off the coast of Peru. They are small, they're delicate, they're also see through and when they're brought to the surface something rather unsettling happens. Thomas Linley is a research associate on the project. We reached him in Newcastle upon Tyne, England.

CO: Mr. Linley. These fish are fascinating. I've seen photos. Can you describe for our listeners what they look like?

THOMAS LINLEY: Well, common to all the sort of hadal snailfish that we found in the other trenches and they are a gelatinous. There's a lot of sort of gel to the tissue, there's a lot of water in the tissue and they've got transparent skin, you can see some of the organs underneath, small eyes and they're up to about a foot long — up to about 30 centimetres. I know the description doesn't sound so good but they're quite charming little fish.

CO: And they're completely transparent?

TL: You can certainly pass light through them. There are no scales on the on the skin and if you light them from the right angle, yes it does pass right through them. They're mainly gel.

CO: And where do they live?

TL: These particular ones are probably only found in this trench.

CO: So for people who don’t understand that Atacama Trench, which off the coast of Peru which is where you found these creatures. How deep is that?

TL: Its deepest point is Richards Deep and it's just over 8,000 metres. It's also a very large trench, it sort of runs the length of the West Coast of South America.

CO: Well, given what's going on in the world, both land and sea, it sounds like a pretty good place to hang out and live.

TL: Well, in adapting to go deeper than any other type of fish, they've sort of got the place to themselves, so they escape their predators and their competition and there's loads of food down there for them to eat. You can see the amphipods in the videos and that's actually what they're feeding on down there. So I think once you commit to a trench and you adapt to go deeper it's an alright life.

CO: What happens when you bring these fish to the surface?

TL: In adapting to live so deep it's really at the sort of biochemical level. So the molecules that make them up are meant to be held together at that extreme pressure. So when we bring them up to the surface the dropping pressure and the warmer temperatures in the surface waters means that the body actually degrades very, very quickly — we have to work very quickly either in a cold room or with chilled water just to stop the animal from melting and disappearing while we're trying to preserve it and trying to record it. It makes me realize, you know, how different the world they live in is the one I am that just can't share the same space with me without disappearing. But it also drives home how much I enjoy sort of taking videos of these animals in situ — I think that's how to do them justice, that’s how to think of these animals.

CO: If you tried to bring this specimen to the surface, to us, to show us — even an aquarium they just fall apart.

TL: Yes, yes. The very make-up is not designed to work at atmospheric pressure. So the animal, the gel that makes up their body essentially melts. They are very, very easy to damage, which is why we're being so careful with this single specimen and taking as many sort of scans of them as we can before we have to handle the animal.

CO: What extraordinary creatures. They’re so deep how did you get to even find them, locate them?

TL: We have machines that do it on our behalf really. So lowering something down on a cable to these kind of depths would be a huge undertaking, it's certainly possible we need a very, very large vessel and you're going so deep that the physics gets a bit crazy. You know, the cable gets heavier than the item and the way that cables stretch and flex gets really, really strange over thousands of metres. So our equipment, we actually drop from the surface, we allow it to free-fall. We use a piece of bait to bring animals to us rather than going looking for them. And then when it's done it'll drop its ballast and come back up to the surface where we can retrieve it. So it's really efficient. It means we can be turning these vehicles over and always have one on the bottom sort of recording while we recharge and download the other one.

CO: What do these snailfish eat? What's the source of food?

TL: They’re predators. So even though we're using a little bit of bait to get animals to gather they're not interested in that bait. You'll see from the images that there's sort of a swarm of almost looking like bees, orangey, creamy coloured animals all over the bait and those are amphipods and they really successful down there. They actually extend right to the very deepest parts of the trenches and deeper than the fish. And the snailfish have gone deeper than the other fish and so they have their prey to themselves really. They seem to be very well-fed and there's loads of examples of them feeding in the videos as well so they're doing okay down there.

CO: And the anthropoids that you found are fascinating too, aren't they?

TL: Yeah. I mean, the snailfish are — I’m a fish guy so I'm excited by those but there's a wealth in this latest data. I mean, we've never collected so much on a single cruise this is over 100 hours. So there's the swarms of amphipods that we see in the other trenches. But there's also these isopods in this one — large isopods that swim down and backwards. And then when they sort of find a spot that they like they do this really elegant little backflip and then land down on those spider likes. So seeing that behaviour was really incredible. That's why I like to film these things in situ.

CO: But here you have three new species of these fish and you're calling them pink, blue and purple. Is that going to remain their names?

TL: I really hope not. It doesn't do him justice. But we weren't expecting to find so many. We had a suspicion there was one in the trench and that we've got some photos on a previous expedition but only a few. So we were really going back hoping to find that animal again. And we did. That's the one with a long flowing fins — that's the one we’re calling blue. But then two others came along and in the frenzy of trying to make ourselves understood in the lab we gave a really quick placeholder names. I hope they don’t stick but it's still the easiest way to talk about them.

CO: Well they are beautiful and I appreciate your enthusiasm for your discovery Mr. Linley.

TL: Thank you. I'm glad you agree. I think people I'm strange but I think they're really beautiful animals.

CO: We don't think you’re strange at all. We’re going to post pictures of your wonderful creatures that you discovered. Thank you so much.

TL: Thank you.

CO: Bye-bye.

TL: Bye.

JD: Thomas Lonely is a research associate at Newcastle University. We reached him in Newcastle upon Tyne in England. And we have actually posted a video of those snail-fish on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient Tones]

Kristina Vogel

JD: In the world of track cycling they don't come much bigger than Kristina Vogel. The 27-year-old German sprinter is a two-time Olympic champion, an 11-time world champion. Around the world she is a crowd favourite for her ferocity in the velodrome and her sweet personality away from it. This June, Ms. Vogel was training at a concrete track in Germany when she collided with another cyclist at a speed of 60 kilometres-per-hour. She was flown immediately to a Berlin hospital for treatment. Last week however she revealed the crash has left her paraplegic. Earlier today Kristina Vogel gave her first press conference on her condition and talked about her path to recovery.

SOUNDCLIP

KRISTINA VOGEL THROUGH TRANSLATOR: It might sound odd but realizing right away that I wouldn't be able to walk again helped me. Waking up from the coma and hearing the diagnosis I thought ‘Okay this is reality.’ I think it's also nice to be free from the thought that it might get better. That realization of my destiny and the consequences helped me. It is how it is. Of course, if I could decide I wouldn't choose this. But it's the way it is and if you accept it then you can react to it better. It's a high-risk sport. We write it 60 to 80 kilometres per hour in the velodrome and we're only protected by our own skin. I definitely want to give something back to the sport. In terms of competing in the wheelchair, I still need time to figure out what options I have.

JD: That was 11-time world champion Kristina Vogel speaking at a press conference at the Berlin hospital where she has been recovering from her injuries following a crash in training that left her paralyzed from the chest down.

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Sept. 12, 2018 episode transcript

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