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The AIH Transcript for September 10, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Yes you are. And I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight…

CO: Sharpening his clause. Just hours after a judge rules Ontario Premier Doug Ford's law cutting Toronto city council in half is unconstitutional, Mr. Ford announces he'll invoke the charter’s notwithstanding clause.

JD: A game of big cat and mouse. An eccentric zookeeper who calls himself Joe Exotic is indicted for hiring hitmen to kill a Jane Doe in Florida. And a woman who runs a big cat sanctuary tells us she was the target.

CO: Darkness on the path to enlightenment. Multiple women accused the guru at a yoga retreat in Thailand of running an abusive sex cult. Our guest recalls her experience with the man whose behaviour was more manipulative than mindful.

JD: The boulder and the beautiful. Miners working for a Canadian company in Western Australia discover a mother lode of gold — including one giant rock containing more than 2,000 ounces of the stuff.

CO: Cosmos and effect. In 1974 her male colleagues were given a Nobel Prize for a discovery that began with her work. But now Jocelyn Bell Burnell has won a cool 3 million U.S. dollars for her pioneering research on pulsars.

JD: And…Burden a beast of burden. A Scottish grandmother goes viral because of a video in which she struggles to read a children's book called the Wonky Donkey without giggling uncontrollably and fails. As It Happens: The Monday Edition. Radio that pins the fail on the donkey.

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Part 1: Ontario Premier Ford: notwithstanding clause, Guru allegations, Astrophysicist wins Breakthrough Prize

Ontario Premier Ford: notwithstanding clause

Guest: Howard Goldblatt

JD: Ontario Superior Court Justice Edward Belobaba called the case quote “unprecedented.” He was referring to the charter challenge launched against Premier Doug Ford’s legislation which would nearly halve the size of Toronto city council in the midst of the municipal election campaign. And today Judge Belobaba struck down that legislation. Well how's this for unprecedented? In response Premier Ford has announced he will invoke the controversial and rarely use notwithstanding clause of the charter to re-pass the bill. Here's part of his explanation.

SOUNDCLIP

PREMIER DOUG FORD: Democracy is: you get elected by the people, you fulfill the mandate that you promised the people about making sure you run efficient government. That's why we're here. What is very concerning moving forward is if our decisions in changing the laws to make this province better, make it more efficient, to build transit, to build infrastructure, to build housing is being shot down by the courts. That's scary. That's disturbing. That is disturbing to the public that elect democratically elected governments — not appointing governments — electing governments. We live in a democracy my friends. Do you know who the judge is going to be in four years? It's going to be the people.

JD: Ontario Premier Doug Ford at a press conference earlier today. Howard Goldblatt is one of the lawyers fighting the province's attempt to shrink Toronto's city council. We reach Mr. Goldblatt in Toronto.

CO: Mr. Goldblatt, we heard from Doug Ford's office today just before that press conference he said you're not going to want to miss this. Of all the outcomes, the possible outcomes, do you think that the Premier would call for this suspension of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in order to pass his law?

HOWARD GOLDBLATT: Well, it was certainly not within our contemplation. What we had expected was to have the matter addressed where it ought to be addressed, in the courts and in the court of appeal, and we were preparing to go there when the announcement came out.

CO: And so what does it mean that Section 33, the notwithstanding clause, which has never been used in Ontario before, has been rarely used anywhere in Canada, it's very controversial part of our charter. What do we make of the fact that he's used?

HG: To put it mildly, we’re overwhelming and disappointed somewhat shocked that he's decided to do this. I think as the court has made it very clear, none of our rights are more important than the right to vote without which a free and democratic society doesn't exist, and electoral fairness is central to our democratic process. And the court has found that those rights have been profoundly interfered with and trampled upon by the breaches of the sections of the charter. There is no justification for this, and that is a decision which ought to be respected and if the government wants to challenge it there's a process to do so through the court of appeal. To invoke the notwithstanding clause, which as you've already identified is fundamentally unprecedented in this province, is a shocking, shocking reaction.

CO: We heard from the Premier today during the press conference he said that every single legal expert agreed that the law was completely constitutional, that there was no expert that didn't comply with believing that. You were in the court room. What arguments did the province give as to why this was legal?

HG: The government's fundamental argument was that it's as the province could determine how the structure of municipal elections would take place. But what they didn't address is that it's one thing to set up a platform and to allow an election to be conducted on that platform and then in the middle of it change the rules of the game. And, you know, as Justice Belobaba said at the very opening of his decision, this is unprecedented. So it's pretty hard for the government to argue on the basis of precedent when there is no precedent for the kind of action has been taken this particular case.

CO: Judge Belobaba said at the very beginning of the hearing that he was undecided, the jury was out, he was wanted to hear the arguments and he hadn't decided. What do you think it is in the arguments that were presented to him that led him to believe that this was, as he said, just a crossing of the line and just clearly outside of what the law should be doing?

HG: Well, you know, obviously I can't speak for Justice Belobaba. But the evidence that was presented to him the evidence of all the work that has been done by those candidates who believe they were going to be conducting a campaign within a 47 ward system, the money they had expanded, the community outreach they had undertaken, the funds they had raised, the organizations they had to appeal to — all of that was in fact wasted by what happened when the government introduced the 25 ward system. And so I think in terms of the ability to participate in an election, a fundamental aspect of our society, and to do so and express your opinion, and then to have that totally undermined by the decision of the government is what attracted Justice Belobaba to the decision that he ultimately made.

CO: He said it's not just about those who were running in those 47 wards — that as we just to remind people that what this law would do is to cut the number of wards in Toronto almost by half. He also said that it was unconstitutional as a violation of the rights of the voters themselves and the people of Toronto. Why did he say that?

HG: Because essentially what it does according to Justice Belobaba was and it undermines the ability of the voters to be effectively represented and in the wards in which they live.

CO: During the case, you were there, Judge Belobaba, he asked the province's lawyers what legal advice they had sought before they introduced this Bill 5, this legislation. And there wasn't much of an answer he actually answered for them he says, ‘I'll bet the answer is no.’ He also wrote into his decision that when he asked them for evidence as to why it was necessary the answer was quote “crickets.” What do you make of those kinds of responses? Is that unusual for a judge to say things or write things in a judgment like that?

HG: Well, you know, essentially what he was saying, and it was quite clear when you were in the court, is that if the government is going to violate Charter rights they have to prove under Section 1 of the charter that that is something that is allowed to take place in a free and democratic society. And to the extent that, you know, you would look as a judge would to see what is the evidence of why you've done this, basically his answer was, you know, crickets. There really isn't any evidence.

CO: Again Mr. Ford today, Premier Ford said that ‘it's extraordinary that a democratically elected government is trying to be shut down by the courts.’ Is he throwing down the gauntlet before the courts? Because he said a number of times his statements today, the suggestion that this is an activist court. What do you think? What message is he trying to send to judges?

HG: Well, whatever messages trying to send I’m 100 per cent confident that the independence of the judiciary isn't going to be affected by the rhetoric from Premier Ford. In our view what he's basically saying is ‘I don't like this and this what I'm going to do.’ But that's frankly a disproportionate response to to a well-reasoned decision by a court relying upon Charter principles, this matter was fully argued by the Crown, they had the opportunity to make the best possible case they could, they failed to meet it. And frankly if they don't like it there is a process of appeal. But to invoke the notwithstanding clause, in the beginning Justice Belobaba said that this is an unprecedented act. And now to invoke the notwithstanding clause, it really doubles down on what is being unprecedented in this particular case.

CO: We'll leave it there. Mr. Goldblatt, thank you.

HG: Thank you very much, appreciate it.

JD: Howard Goldblatt is one of the lawyers who thought Ontario Premier Doug Ford’s legislation to slash the number of Toronto city councillors We reached Mr. Goldblatt in Toronto. Today a Superior Court Justice ruled the legislation unconstitutional. In response the Premier said he would appeal the decision and use the Charter's notwithstanding clause to pass it again. The notwithstanding clause has never before been used in Ontario.

[Music: Jazz]

Guru allegations

Guest: Nancy Miller

JD: To yogis looking for an exotic, peaceful getaway Agama Yoga seems picture perfect. It is a retreat on a remote Thai island led by charismatic guru Swami Vivekananda Saraswati. Thousands have practiced tantric yoga there since it first opened in 2003. But for a couple of months now the school's guru has been M-I A. It now seems clear why. A report published in The Guardian this month details the claims of at least 14 women who allege sexual assault, rape and misogynistic teachings by the Guru. He is a Romanian man whose real name is Narcis Tarcau. Nancy Miller knew the Guru well. She was his student and a teacher at the yoga school until 2008. She is also Canadian. We reached Ms. Miller in Toronto.

CO: Nancy, what do you make of these accusations against your former teacher? At least 14 women now. What do you make of it?

NANCY MILLER: Well, obviously it's terrible news. And at the same time I think many of us were aware that something wasn't right. Although I wasn't aware of how bad it was, there was a feeling that something wasn't right for me. And so I had my own sort of misgivings about the school and the climate and some of the teachings. So when these accusations finally came to light and they've been sort of brewing online for a long time it was a relief in a way that actually people were coming forward and speaking out and action is happening.

CO: These are not slight accusations.

MN: Not at all.

CO: Not that people felt uncomfortable or that it was unpleasant, this is sexual assault, rape, misogyny. These are the allegations. Were you aware of that when you were there?

NM: Obviously I wasn't aware of sex abuse sexual assault and the rape. I was aware that there was misogyny at a school in the teachinsg. And I actually tried to speak out about it amongst other members and it is one of the reasons many of us cut off from school.

CO: We're talking about Swami Vivekananda Saraswati, he’s actually a Romanian, right?

NM: His his given name is Narcis Tarcau and his partner who works with at the school is also Romanian. They come from a yoga teacher that is — he's a criminal. So he is accused of raping a 13-year-old girl. And this is actually known at the school among some people and I don't know what to make of that claim. It was very hard to speak up at that school. If you spoke up at that school they would intimidate people, call people — women crazy or really insult them in ways that, you know, it was brainwashing. If you spoke out about the school there would karmic retribution.

CO: Karmic retribution, what does that mean?

NM: He would speak about karma as if if you spoke out badly about your teacher your life would be messed up. He actually taught that.

CO: How did you deal with him? How did he approach you?

NM: I kept my distance from him. He was very intelligent, you know, this is not an easy case where you kind of even walk into that school and see it as a cult. It looks like this beautiful place in a beautiful part of the world and people doing yoga and it's very hard to sniff it at the surface.

CO: And it's a very famous, isn’t it? This isn’t a small little operation.

NM: Yeah. And not all of the teachings are terrible. So you get drawn in by the better teachings. And he is incredibly intelligent, speaks seven languages, is a member of Mensa. He's not, an idiot. He knows what he's doing. So I went into a consultation for him once I think was, you know, in my late 20s and as many people are there they're going for questions about their life and their love life and any problems they may have. And, you know, I went in and asked for advice about meeting somebody and all of that and first of all he somehow knew that my mother had died of cancer. I don't know how he found that information out. And then talked to me in this way which was like — his only advice for people who were coming with any kind of issue around romance was to have sex with as many people you he possibly could, as many different Zodiac signs as you possibly could. Obviously a lot of us didn't take his advice but, you know, he looked at me and said ‘Nancy you have such beautiful eyes you could seduce anyone.’ I was like this is not very good advice. Was he you propositioning me? I don't even know.

CO: Did he ever approach you for sex?

NM: No. But we all knew it was sort of a joke that if you went to his cabin, his private bungalow, that meant that you would have sex with me Swami. So I was not interested in him at all. I don't understand. I mean, if you read the Guardian article even this woman who was a victim of him who actually ended up having sex with him, she wasn't even attracted to him, but the teachers kind of pushed him so you know you have to have sex with Swami, he's a healer. And there’s a publicly available now audio recording in which Swami talks about himself as a sex doctor. He says ‘I'm on a higher level of consciousness.’ If a woman doesn't want to have sex with me, you know, I really, if it wasn't for modern democratic law, I can push myself on her. I mean, he's sick. He's sick.

CO: And you mentioned his teacher, this person who taught him this other Romanian who said that he was on a very well-publicized mission, he was going to sleep with 1,000 virgins and eventually got charged with sleeping with a teenager, with a child.

NM: We didn't know that. I mean, when I was at the school was before the Internet, before you could accessing this information. Of course since the story broke I've been researching it and he’s on the most wanted. He’s one of the most wanted criminals in the EU. He hasn't shown up to court for multiple counts of sexual assault and sexual abuse in Finland and France.

CO: And that's the teacher, this is your guru's teacher.

NM: Yes.

CO: Your man, this Swami Saraswati, he has left Thailand. The allegations may never be proven then.

NM: It's very disturbing and that's why I think the media is so important — to have his faith in people to see who he is. We all obviously want justice to happen but it's very complicated. Myself, having been through — having gone to the police about sexual assault. I know how conflict complicated it is even to get to a trial. You know, you have to have very clear evidence. And yeah, I mean, I have hope. I hope that he's put behind bars.

CO: But it doesn't seem the police will be much or the courts because Thailand is already saying that some of the accusations have passed the statute of limitations in Thailand and that they can't do anything about it.

NM: Right. I mean, he also came to Canada so I don't know if people in Canada also have any allegations against him. I mean, I encourage people, women to come forward. I know it's a very difficult thing to do.

CO: What lasting effect has this encountered at Agama, this yoga retreat, what lasting effect has it had on you?

NM: I mean, it really made me angry for a long time. He taught that, for example, students who did Agama yoga didn't get cancer, and so I think that messed with me having been diagnosed with cancer in 2012. And there are other things, like I just found that it kind of suddenly influenced the way that I would relate to men. You know, I just have to be very conscious about any kind of thoughts that I have around yoga. And I had to leave the yoga world consciously for a while just to get clear.

CO: Yoga is supposed to be healing. This is supposed to be something that takes you into a better spiritual place. It sounds like it's been a nightmare for you.

NM: That's exactly it, and I grew up with a family that did yoga and I wanted to be able to have a very clean and healthy relationship with yoga. That's why it's so upsetting that men like Narcis Tarcau really misuse it and abuse the power of a teacher.

CO: Well Nancy, I hope that you see some results from you coming forward. I'm sure it was very difficult. And we really appreciate you to speak with us today. Thank you.

NM: Thank you so much.

CO: Bye-bye.

JD: Nancy Miller is a former student and teacher at a Agama Yoga. The guru of that school, Narcis Tarcau, is now facing allegations of sexual assault, rape, and misogynistic teachings by at least 14 women. None of the allegations have been proven in court. We did reach out to Agam Yoga for comment. We did not receive a response. We are also learning more about Mr. Tarcau’s Canadian connections, including his time teaching sporadically at a yoga retreat near Kingston, Ontario, most recently in the fall of 2012. One of the owners of a Shanti Retreat and Inn told As It Happens quote “There are serious allegations that need to be investigated,” and that when they worked with them he was quote “professional and well-received.” For more on the story go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient Tones]

Astrophysicist wins Breakthrough Prize

Guest: Jocelyn Bell Burnell

JD: Decades ago, when Professor Jocelyn Bell Burnell was a postgraduate student at Cambridge, she was the first to observe pulsars. But in 1974 when the Nobel Prize was awarded for that discovery, only her male colleagues were honoured. Now, 44 years later, Ms. Bell Burnell has been awarded a Breakthrough prize for her role in that work. And it comes with a prize of three million U.S. dollars. But Ms. Bell Burnell is not keeping that reward — she's donating it. We reached Jocelyn Bell Burnell on in Bradford on Avon, England.

CO: Professor Bell Burnell, first of all, big congratulations to you on this award.

PROFESSOR JOCELYN BELL BURNELL: Thank you Carol.

CO: Three million dollars U.S. — you've decided to donate your prize money. What is it you hope to do with it?

JBB: I'm going to donate it barring any tax I have to pay to the Institute of Physics, which is the professional body for physicists in the U.K. and Ireland, for them to establish research studentships for minority people in physics. And physics being physics, minority people includes women.

CO: And you should know that there are limits because you as a female scientist encounter them in your own career, didn't you?

JBB: Yeah, I was one of very few women around in Cambridge. The vast majority of undergraduates probably about 80 per cent, maybe 90 per cent were males at that time.

CO: And that time being in the 70s, I believe, right?

JBB: 60s, late 60s.

CO: And yet you made this remarkable discovery at that time of what we now call pulsars. Can you tell us the moment that you observed them, what was that moment like for you when you first discovered or first noticed something that went on to this discovery?

JBB: Well, I first noticed something quite early on and that wasn't particularly exciting. It was when I finally managed to get the signal in more detail and it turned out to be pulses, regular pulses, the likes of which we had never seen before in radio astronomy.

CO: And what were those pulses?

JBB: They’re from a star that’s spinning round and it has a beam of radio waves which it sweeps around the sky as it spins, a bit like the way a lighthouse works. And if the beam shines on the Earth we see a flash, a pulse every time the star spins.

CO: How difficult was it for you to detect that and then actually be able to repeat that experience? How rare was that moment?

JBB: It was a very small anomaly that I was chasing up. We didn't have much in the way of computers then so I was using rows and rows and rows of chart paper, which flowed under pens which produced wiggles on the paper. And by the end of the exercise I had over three miles of paper — five kilometres — so there was a lot of it. And this little signal as we were originally recording occupied about five millimetres in every five hundred metres — five millimetres in half a kilometre.

CO: The fact that you were a female scientist at that time, did you have people have doubts in you? Did you have the same kind of response as perhaps a male scientist would have? Did you have doubts in your own work at that time?

JBB: I certainly had doubts. I was quite overawed when I arrived in Cambridge because until then I'd been in the north and west of the country and Cambridge was deep south and very affluent and civilized and suave. I was quite overawed by all this. And that was one of the reasons I was being very, very thorough. I thought ‘I’ve really got to do good work while I’m here. There’s a serious risk that they're going to throw me out because I'm not bright enough. Having found the signals, perhaps the most interesting was the interviews by press, newspapers, television when we announced the discovery. There’d be the two of us, Tony Hewish my adviser and myself, and the press with us Tony Hewish about the astrophysical significance of this discovery and then they turned to me for what they called the human interest, and they wanted to know my waist, bust and hip sizes, how tall I was, how many boyfriends I had at once, would I describe my hair as brunette or blonde — it’s neither. It was bizarre and it was offensive. And the newspaper photographers would ask me to undo some of the top buttons of my blouse, so I found that extremely difficult but I felt I wasn't in a position to kick up a fuss. I was still only a student, I had to write a thesis, graduate and get references.

CO: I'm listening to this description with my jaw open. This was what it was like and it was at the time for women, but this year this lack of recognition went further, didn't it? Because your colleague Tony Hewish was a recipient of the Nobel Prize for Science for this discovery and you were not included in that.

JBB: Yeah, I think that was because I was a student. I don't think they knew my name. I don't think they knew my gender. They just didn't consider students.

CO: And did they consider women?

JBB: Not often. There are very, very few women who have gotten science Nobel Prizes. Most of the ones there are in the life sciences I think.

CO: But, you know, lots of other people were angry on your behalf that you were not named in that and that your male colleagues were. Do you carry any resentment that you didn't get the Nobel Prize?

JBB: No, I don't, because one thing I've recognized is that when you get a Nobel Prize it's a big, big thing and nobody gives you anything thereafter because they feel they can't match it. Whereas if you don't get a Nobel Prize, you get everything that moves. So most years there's been some kind of award and a party and that's been much more fun.

CO: So you in the end, you feel when you look back you got what you wanted from this? You got the recognition that you deserved?

JBB: Certainly in the scientific community. Yes, undoubtedly.

CO: And now quite publicly you have this recognition because of this award that you are receiving is the recognition of your work and who you are as a scientist. What does it mean to you?

JBB: Yes, it's very nice. And I'm pleased it's not just for the pulsar stuff, which is 50 years ago. It's also for scientific leadership, and I'm glad they're recognizing that. It's nice that somebody feels I've done something since the discovery of pulsars.

CO: Well, I think this is more than nice. And I think it's just so overdue and well-deserved, and I appreciate so much speaking with you Professor Bell Burnell. Thank you.

JBB: Thank you very much, indeed. Thank you, Carol.

CO: Bye-bye.

JD: Astrophysicist Jocelyn Bell Burnell was recently awarded a Breakthrough prize for her work on pulsars rather and other work as well. We reached Ms. Bell Burnell in Bradford on Avon, England.

[Music: Ambient Beeps]

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Part 2: Tiger Hitman, Gold find

Tiger Hitman

Guest: Carole Baskin

JD: Joseph Maldonado-Passage, also known as Joe Exotic, is an eccentric zookeeper — and sometime U.S. presidential candidate — from Oklahoma. He has made a living breathing tiger cubs to take around shopping malls in America's mid and southwest for people to pet. Now he is facing charges for hiring hitmen to kill a woman in Florida. The woman has not been named in court documents. But Carole Baskin says she was Joe Exotic’s intended target. She runs an animal sanctuary Big Cat Rescue. We reached her in Tampa.

CO: Ms. Baskin, we know there has been tension, to say the least, between you and Joseph Maldonado-Passage for a very long time. But did you ever expect to see him indicted for taking out a hit on you?

CAROLE BASKIN: I wasn't at all surprised that he was trying to kill me. I've known that for a long time. But I was very surprised that he was actually caught. I was really kind of startled that they were able to gather enough evidence to have the arrest made because these people are constantly threatening me on social media and in person and through email and texts and everything else — but they've just never gotten caught before. So it was wonderful that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the FBI and U.S. Attorney's Office for the Western District of Oklahoma and the U.S. Marshal Service all actually took this seriously and followed through on it.

CO: When you say ‘these people’ who are ‘these people’ and what kinds of threats have you had?

CB: Joe Exotic is just one of a handful of people that are in this network of backyard breeders and private zoo owners who are constantly breeding lion and tiger cubs for use as pay-to-play props where they charge people $20 to have their picture made with a cub. And so that group of people sees me as a threat to their industry because I speak out against that activity and have gotten a lot of undercover footage and photos and video of the abuse that those animals suffer and I've shared that online. So that has created this target on my head.

CO: You use the name Joe Exotic, which is the name that Mr. Maldonado-Passage gives himself. What kinds of threats have you had? What has alarmed you the most about what's been posted online about you?

CB: The threats that Joe Exotic has made online have included shooting a blow-up doll dressed to look like me. He's posted pictures holding a gun to the head of a mannequin dressed like me that was hanging. Frequently he loves to post video of himself blowing things up and would frequently say ‘This is for that expletive in Florida,’ I don't know if I can say what he says on your show. But he doesn't always call me out by name, usually refers to me in some sort of a veiled way. So I've been dealing with that since 2010 from him and for the last 20 years from others like him.

CO: Just to clarify one thing, because the prosecutors do not name the target of this alleged hit in their court filings they refer to the person that would be the target as ‘Jane Doe.’ How are you so sure that it's you?

CB: Anybody who talks to Joe Exotic for five minutes will figure out that it's me because he can't stop raving about me. And it's so bizarre to me because there are other organizations that protect wild animals like PETA and the Humane Society International and I think you guys have Zoo Check there in Canada, but they usually don't target big organizations. When I say they — these backyard breeders — have selected me as a target because I think I'm a little bit more outspoken personally than maybe some of these organizations have people within them speaking out.

CO: In this indictment have you learned what Mr. Maldonado-Passage allegedly tried to do or was attempting to do in order to kill you?

CB: The indictment says that he tried to hire two different people — one of them being an undercover agent — to travel to Florida to kill me. And I’ve had, over the years, a number of people have contacted me saying that he had tried to hire them to kill me. And every time that happens I turn it over to law enforcement. But that's been going on eight years now.

CO: And what did law enforcement say to you when you would pass these threats on?

CB: I'm not usually the one dealing with law enforcement, I'm the one asking that person who has said that they've been hired I can't be the middle man for them they have to go to law enforcement on their own. So I don't know what happens on their end. I do know that I tried to get a restraining order here in Florida, but in our county you have to have been physically struck by the person twice before they’ll issue a restraining order. So even though I had these images of him blowing up the doll and he had a show where he had a glass jar sitting on his desk with what looked to be my head in the jar. I mean, all of these sick kind of things that he would do to try and bully and threaten me. But they said until he actually hit me twice then they wouldn't be able to issue a restraining order.

CO: Must be extremely difficult to live with these kinds of threats, not just from this man but from others. What was what drives you in the efforts to try and protect these animals?

CB: These cubs that they ripped from their mothers and deprive of the food and the sleep and nutrition that they need and then they pimp them out to people that will pay $20 to have their pictures made with them — those cubs are absolute innocents in this scheme and nobody is willing to get out there and take the risk that I've been willing to take to show what's going on behind the scenes and how those cubs are being punched and shaken and treated with such abject cruelty. And as long as we don't speak out they continue to do those abusive things to these animals.

CO: Mr. Maldonado-Passage has been indicted, he hasn't entered a plea at this point. These still are allegations yet to be proven in court. But do you think that this exposure, what we’re learning about Joe Exotic and this industry, do you think that if nothing else this will have an effect on this industry, this business that he works in?

CB: In one way I hope that it opens the public's eyes to the fact that there's no good way to have your picture made with a lion club or a tiger cub. That kind of abuse that I just described is always behind those activities. And the other is that now that he's been caught, I really hope it makes the other people who are threatening and stalking and bullying see that they could actually get caught.

CO: We'll leave it there. Ms. Baskin, I appreciate speaking with you, thank you.

CB: Thank you so much, Carol.

JD: Carole Baskin is the CEO of the animal sanctuary Big Cat Rescue. We reached her in Tampa, Florida.

[Music: Whimsical Strings]

The Wonky Donkey

JD: The Wonky Donkey is a tale about a three-legged, and therefore off balance, donkey. It is written by children's author Craig Smith and illustrated by Katz Cowley. It has already been a huge success, selling more than a million copies to date. It is most popular in Australia and in Mr. Smith's native New Zealand — or at least it was until a grandmama on the other side of the world lost her composure on camera while reading the story about the quote “dinky, lanky, honky, tonky, winky, wonky donkey” unquote. Here's a clip.

SOUNDCLIP

JANICE CLARK: How can anyone read this seriously? I was walking down the road and I saw a donkey.

[LAUGHTER]

JC: He.

[LAUGHTER]

JC: He only had three legs, one eye. He likes to listen to country music. He was quite tall and slim. He smelled really, really bad.

[LAUGHTER]

JC: Oh, dear, he’s a stinky, dinky, lanky, honky, tonky, winky, wonky donkey.

[LAUGHTER]

JC: I was walking down the road and I saw a donkey, He-haw. He only had three legs, one eye. He likes to listen to country music. He was quite tall and slim. He smelled really, really bad. And that morning he got up early and hadn’t had any coffee. He was a cranky, stinky, dinky, lanky, honky, tonky, winky, wonky donkey.

[LAUGHTER]

JC: I was walking down the road and I saw a donkey, He-haw. He only had three legs, one eye. He likes to listen to country music. He was quite tall and slim. He smelled really, really bad. And that morning he got up early and hadn’t had any coffee and he was always getting up to mischief. He was a hanky, panky, a cranky, stinky, dinky, lanky, honky, tonky, winky, wonky donkey.

[LAUGHTER]

JC: This is going to kill me.

[LAUGHTER]

JD: That was Janice Clark, who we presume is from Scotland reading a book called The Wonky Donkey to her baby grandson. That story time moment has been watched online more than three million times since it was posted last week. The Wonky Donkey’s U.K. publisher says it has already seen a jump in demand for the book — especially in Scotland.

[Music: Guitar]

Gold Find

Guest: Mark Selby

JD: Miners at the Beta Hunt Mine in Western Australia used to extract nickel, but last night they announced that they had pulled out a much more precious metal — gold, and lots of it — including what might be the biggest gold nugget ever. The mine is owned by Toronto based RNC Minerals. The company has doubled its value overnight. Mark Selby is the president and the CEO. We reached him in Seoul.

CO: Mr. Selby, how did you react? What did you say when you learned about these gold nuggets and that discovery?

MARK SELBY: Yeah, no, it was — it was exciting. I literally had woken up in the middle of the night Monday evening and picked up my phone and checked an email and saw the first email that indicated we thought we might have four or five thousand ounces come out of this discovery. And needless to say I didn't get back to bed last night. But we've made one of the, we think, one of the best gold discoveries in Western Australia and, you know, the scale of the grade and the specimen stones that have come out we think makes it one of the more exciting gold discoveries in a very, very long time anywhere in the world.

CO: How big are they?

MS: The biggest one is a 95-kilo specimen that has, we believe, over 2,400 ounces of gold in it. To give you some context, that's the largest nugget, I mean this isn't a nugget, it's gold stuck in rock — is about 2,200 ounces — that's worth four million dollars just the gold content alone.

CO: And what’s the other one? What’s the other guy?

MS: The other ones about 65 ounces, so it's 1,600 ounces, so that's two and a half million dollars in today's currency. To give people context, out of about your living room, we pulled out 15 million dollars worth of gold or about 9,000 ounces. The typical gold mine today is mining gold rock that contains about one part per million or one gram per tonne gold and so a typical mine would have to mine 300,000 tonnes to get the same amount of gold that we just pulled out this week.

CO: You've got two rocks that are worth 15 million dollars?

MS: No two rocks that are worth six or seven, and then we pulled out by hand and shipped another bunch of rock directly to the Perth mint to be processed for a total of 15 million dollars.

CO: But you weren't even mining for gold at this mine.

MS: Well the history of the mine is that it's a nickel mine. But when we bought it the gold potential was there so we've started mining over the last little while, and historically up against the nickel deposits at the top of the mine they would pull out a few hundred ounces of these high grade specimens stones in the 70s and 80s. And we pulled them out the first few times we started mining nickel when we picked up the mine in 2016. But what's really exciting is we've identified these new structures, which concentrates the gold just like it does up at the nickel contact and we pulled out about 1,500 ounces from one area at the end of June and two months later pull out 9,000 ounces. So our team at the site has done a great job of figuring out how the gold zone interacts with this particular type of sediment and it has done a good job of zeroing in on it. So we have kilometres of strike length of potential to find more of these jewellery boxes.

CO: So this is just the tip of your golden iceberg then?

MS: That's a great analogy, yes. We hope there's a very big iceberg underneath that tip.

CO: What do you do with them? You don't just take down to the market and sell it. What happens now with rocks of that worth, that value?

MS: Yes, so we have two paths. So, you know, obviously rocks that valuable we make sure to get them off site as quickly as possible. The grade great content of the gold on average of what we pulled out was shipped off was about 80 per cent gold. So those go directly to the mint to be processed through that high grade enough. And then anything that's particularly beautiful we'll keep as a specimen stone and sell to collectors. These two big ones obviously are very unique so we're going to go through an extended auction process here to be able to identify a global buyer and hopefully generate a few million dollars more for the company.

CO: So you have a license to do this mine. Does Australia get anything from it?

MS: Yeah Western Australia has a royalty on all minerals that are recovered from any mine in the area. So the Western Australian Government just got two-and-a-half per cent of everything we found this week.

CO: How much do you think you got? I mean, getting back to the size of this iceberg or jewellery box whatever you want to call. What do you think you're sitting on?

MS: Well, again using the living room analogy, so we pulled out this gold out from about five metres and we pulled up 1,500 ounces from a place that was about 30 metres away and we literally have a couple kilometres of strike length across multiple structures to be able to go looking for more of these. So we don't have to find them too often to add up to a very, very large number of ounces. So it's very, very exciting.

CO: So what has this done for RNC Minerals, for your company? What's happened to its stock value?

MS: The share price has more than doubled today and we've traded about 15 per cent of our volume and then we're having a conference call tomorrow to explain in more detail about the exploration potential that's there. So hopefully this is the, you know, we'll see more people who find out more about the potential and get us excited about it as we are will hopefully buy some more stock and we'll see further improvement in our share price.

CO: I suspect you're a happy man tonight?

MS: I am a very happy man. It's been a very happy week.

CO: Is there a horseshoes someplace that you think you can attribute to this?

[LAUGHTER]

MS: I was wondering why is he feeling a little bit uncomfortable. That must have been it.

[LAUGHTER]

CO: Well, I wish well and congratulations on this. Thank you.

MS: Thanks very much. Have a good day.

JD: Mark Selby is the president and CEO of RNC Minerals. He was in Seoul, South Korea. If you’d like to see some photographs of that glittering rock of gold. You can do so at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient Bass]

U of C Nicole Search

JD: Carlos knew her name was Nicole and that's about it. Carlos Zetina is a first-year student at the University of Calgary. Last week he hit off at the campus bar with a girl named Nicole something. But afterwards he realized that, not only did he not know her last name, he had the wrong cell phone number for her. So he got creative. He searched every single person he could find at the University with the name Nicole or a variation thereof — and he sent them emails. 247 of them. He wrote: “If your name is Nicole, and you're from Holland and you think Nietzsche is depressing then text me.” Well Carlos and the real Nicole haven't gone on a date yet — but a whole bunch of other Nicoles have — with each other. They've already met up for drinks. Today David Gray host of CBC Radio's Calgary Eyeopener interviewed a few of the Nicoles Massey Jr. Nicole tag and Nicolette Riley.

SOUNDCLIP

NICOLE1: It was Friday during the day, I got a lot of buzzing on my phone happening and I thought it was maybe a spam email it wasn't too sure because the subject was ‘met you last night, gave me the wrong number’ or something. So then I started thinking what did I do last night? Hold on like, then the e-mails started pouring in from all the different Nicoles and it's just turned into like a big thread where it got kind of funny and they were saying should we all say we’re the real Nicole. And it just built off of that.

DAVID GRAY: Nicolette, for a moment did you think what did I do last night? Did I? Could I?

NICOLETTE: I knew it wasn't me. But when I got the emails I was just enjoying how lighthearted everybody was being. There was jokes like, ‘Will the real Nicole please stand up, please stand up, please stand up.’ There was another Nicole who said ‘Hey Carlos, please call me at 555-5555.

DG: And has any Nicole answered? Have you guys heard anything about this, whether this has worked for him?

NICOLETTE: As it turned out the original Nicole actually doesn't have an @UCalgary e-mail address, so she didn't get any of the e-mails.

DG: Oh really.

NICOLETTE: But as it started to grow and we decided to create a Facebook group and actually meet up through the network of Nicoles she had actually met another girl named Nicole who was telling her all about this email partway through hearing the story she went ‘Wait, I think that's me.’

DG: So that’s how it played out? Now that this act has brought the Nicoles of the University of Calgary together, will you stay together as the Nicoles of the University of Calgary?

NICOLE: We're hoping so. We'd love to get together more and make it a monthly thing. You know, we can be famous like the Lois Club or something. So we met up on Friday. I think we've got plans to meet up on Friday, we're going meet the real Nicole on Friday, we're very excited about that.

NICOLETTE: Even if things don't work out romantically with Carlos, they build a friendship, just the fact that we've now built a friendship on the basis that our names are similar, I think that's great.

JD: The Niocoles of The University of Calgary speaking with host David Gray on the Calgary Eyeopener.

[Music: Guitar Strums]

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Part 3: Google: China, Egypt sentencings

Google: China

Guest: Deirdre Mulligan

JD: It was the spring of 1989. Students and others took to the streets of Beijing, China demanding reform and seeking a shift from authoritarianism to democracy. To mark the 50th anniversary of this program we are polling select interviews from our archives to hear how As It Happens covered these key moments in history. Here is what As It Happens sounded like on May 26th of 1989 as the defiant mood among protesters in Tiananmen Square began to change.

SOUNDCLIP

AL MAITLAND: At first glance Beijing's Tiananmen Square still looks like a hotbed of popular dissent. Red flags, banners and posters are everywhere. Calls for a people's democracy and the resignation of Premier Li Peng still blare over loudspeakers. But the energy that once prompted a million people to pour into the heart of Beijing is all but gone. Here's how some students in the square are reacting to news that hardliners inside China's Communist Party have gained control and that there is not likely to be a compromise.

CHINESE STUDENT: I think it’s against our will. They didn't understand our students will.

STUDENT 2: We are not afraid and many of our students said they will continue the strike to the end.

STUDENT 3: Yes, we lose heart sometimes. We lose our courage. Things are getting worse, I think. I don’t know what to say. I think only time can tell.

JD: From May 26^th of 1989 that was former As It Happens host Allan Maitland describing the atmosphere at Tiananmen Square. And here is Al Maitland again, just days later on June 4th of 1989 — the day the protest ended in a massacre.

SOUNDCLIP

AL MAITLAND: Black banners, white wreaths hanging over campus gates throughout Beijing. Students and citizens alike mourn the deaths of hundreds of comrades crushed beneath oncoming tanks or simply shot to death by indiscriminate gunfire.

[GUNSHOTS]

JD: For many listeners, for many of us those sounds may trigger memories of a recent history. A history that most of us can access with the click of a mouse. But in China there is an ongoing effort to bury the past. Now, after leaving the country in 2010, Google is mulling a decision to re-launch a censored version of its search engine in China. And advocates of online freedom and human rights are bracing themselves for a potential shift in the tech giant’s moral compass. Deirdre Mulligan is an associate professor and faculty director at Berkeley Center for Law and Technology. We reached her at the University of California in Berkeley California.

CO: Deirdre, we've just been hearing some of the clips, the horror in the second one, about what was going on in Tiananmen Square in 1989. If you were in China today and you want to know what happened, if you want to refer to what we just heard and you did a search in China what would you get in the way of results?

DEIRDRE MULLIGAN: You wouldn't find an accurate account of history, and certainly not of the state involvement in the taking of human life. Most of the results, from my understanding, refer to what happened at Tiananmen Square is a riot or they refer to it as a massacre missed from overseas, that they basically deny that the state was involved in killing and removals of peaceful protesters. And if you, for example, look at something like Baidu’s terms of service you get a really good sense of the sort of information that the government expects them to keep from their citizens.

CO: And we’ll just tell people Baidu is a search engine that is permitted in China but the Chinese government controls it. Is that correct?

DM: Yes. It includes in their terms of service very broad, sweeping requirements about people who are using the service but those requirements reflect the sort of censorship that the Chinese government expects search engines to engage in on their behalf.

CO: And so if Google does re-enter the Chinese market, we know that since 2010 it's even more authoritarian, it’s even more hardline than it was at that time. So would Google get to have an exception? Would it be going in under the same, if not more, strict conditions than it left?

DM: It would seem on its face that entering China today would create an even more likely scenario where Google is helping the state engage in activity that censors information in a way that contributes to adverse human rights impacts. I would certainly like to keep open the possibility that U.S. industry and Western governments can continue to keep pressure on China to stop limiting its citizens access to information, and particularly access to information about human rights atrocities. Which is not just any kind of information — this is like the German government trying to limit the availability of information about the Holocaust. When we're talking about removing the records of what happened at Tiananmen Square, it's not the same as censoring other kinds of information. There is an interview with John Hennessy who's Alphabet's chairman.

CO: Alphabet's the parent company for Google, yes?

DM: In the Wall Street Journal. And when asked why Google would go back in to China, Hennessy is quoted as saying ‘there's a shifting set of grounds of how you think about that problem and how you think about the issue of censorship,’ and he goes on to say ‘the truth is there are forms of censorship virtually everywhere around the world.’ And while that is certainly true, all censorship is not the same, right. So, for example, we might censor images of child pornography but we do that because there are actually human rights consequences on the other side. And that is a world apart from state efforts to censor information about its own violations of human rights. And much censorship is about kind of balances between competing human rights. And we view those very differently than state efforts to suppress information about human rights atrocities. And so that kind of moral equivalence there is just truly problematic and disturbing.

CO: We hear those clips at the beginning of the young people in Tiananmen Square and saying a young woman, God who knows where she is now, she was a student then, she said, “We lose heart sometimes — and courage. But time will tell.’ To what degree is a decision like this on the part of Google a betrayal of the courage that those students showed in 1989?

DM: I would say that when John Hennessy talks about the shifting landscape, part of that shifting landscape is an increased attention to the enormous impact that multi-national corporations have on the real lived experience of human rights on the ground, and the positive role they can play in being a force of good. And that it may not be their job to protect human rights, but it is part of their job to respect and remedy them. And so when, and if, Google decides to go back into China, if they censor out information about the human rights atrocity that is the real legacy of Tiananmen Square, then they are failing to respect the human rights, not just of the people whose lives were lost and their loved ones, but also of that society and their need to understand the truth of what happened, which flows from a commitment to freedom of expression and access to information — but also is one of the ways in which we remedy and make whole both individuals and societies after horrific atrocities have happened. So keeping faith with the past and being an accurate storyteller about the past is an incredibly important role for Google and other search engines. They don't just tell us what's on the Web. They really tell us about history, they tell us about the current and they help us build a better future when they play their role.

CO: Google has been held up as a tech company with conscience. Their motto originally was ‘Don't be evil or don't do evil.’ And what kind of signal would it send if Google re-launches and accommodates Chinese demands?

DM: Well, initially it was this negative, ‘Don't be evil. And today it's framed in a much more positive and proactive, ‘Do the right thing.’ I don't want to totally foreclose the possibility that there might be some completely non-traditional way that we have not yet thought of of thread the needle that would be going to China. But I think the general sentiment is that going back in under the conditions as we think they exist would be not just a defeat for Google, but I think it really would be a really sorry day for the industry as a whole, because they have set themselves out as protecting and collaborating in the protection of human rights.

CO: Well, as that Brave student in Tiananmen Square said, time will tell. And we'll see what happens with Google in China. Deirdre, Thank you.

DM: Thank you.

JD: Deirdre Mulligan is an associate professor and faculty director at Berkeley Center for Law and Technology. We reached her at the University of California in Berkeley, California.

[Music: Ambient Bells]

As It Happens 50^th Celebration: The Beaver

JD: Now here's another look back for our 50^th. This time at a moment of triumph for involving this program and one of this country's most majestic animals — the beaver. The beaver is, of course, an official symbol of Canada. It's not anyone else's. It is ours. But things we're not so certain back in the 70s when producers on this program learned that a New York politician wanted to make the beaver that state's animal. Here's former As It Happens executive producer Mark Starovic explaining about the show's campaign to save the beaver.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK STAROVIC: We saw a story in the paper that the state of New York, a legislator in the state of New York state, a senator had proposed the bill that the beaver became the state animal of New York State. We called him up and said ‘You can’t do that, it’s the national symbol of Canada.’ He says, Well, actually, you folks never registered it.’ Apparently there's an international registry of national symbols. Really? Who knew? So we began the campaign to save the beaver. It went on for weeks. We would commission orchestra quartets to come in and do a tribute to the beaver. We would the real commission poets to come in and do a poem for the beaver. One of the famous clips that always runs on As It Happens is the beaver. We brought in a beaver and the beaver peed on Al Maitland and he and Barbara burst into her magnificent laugh. And it's one of the great moments. Well, petitions started coming in to as it happens which we did duly forwarded to Ottawa from Kindergartens, from professors — in the tens of thousands people claimed on the campaign. We tried to have an item almost every day, certainly every week, and wouldn't let it go. Eventually one MP — I forget which, party a private proposed a private member's bill to make the beaver the national symbol of Canada — and private members bills are hopeless, they almost never get through. But he rose with the bill. The Government house leader got up just nodded, which means government ascent, and the beaver was accepted as the national symbol of Canada. We were invited to the ceremony when the post office reissued the beaver stamp, which is rarest stamp in Canadian history and As It Happens was given pride of place for having conducted the campaign to save the beaver. So As It Happens saved the beaver.

JD: Former As It Happens executive producer Mark Starovic. And you can find all kinds of other 50^th anniversary stuff on the As It Happens website: www.cbc.ca/aih. Including a really nifty interactive timeline. And you can also follow our hashtag on Twitter. That's right we have a hashtag: #AIH50

[Music: Flutes]

Egypt sentencings

Guest: Praveen Madhiraju

JD: It has become known as the Rabaa massacre — the deadliest single incident since Egypt's President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi swept to power. And the deadliest day in Egypt since the country's 2011 revolution. According to Human Rights Watch, at least 1,000 people were killed in a single day in August of 2013 when security forces and the army dispersed a sit-in in support of ousted President Mohamed Morsi. Now, a mass trial for hundreds of people charged for participating in those protests has ended. In Cairo this weekend, a criminal court sentenced 75 people to death, 47 people to life in prison and more than 600 people to serious prison terms. Moustafa Kassem is one of them. He's a dual U.S.-Egyptian citizen who has been in jail since August of 2013. On Saturday he was sentenced to 15 years in prison. Praveen Madhiraju is part of Mr. Kassem's legal team and the executive director of Pre-trial Rights International. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

CO: Mr. Madhiraju, can you tell us more about this mass trial? Who was in front of the court and what was the process?

PRAVEEN MADHIRAJU: The process, if you want to call it that, was a farce. There were 739 individuals who were tried at the same time for crimes that occurred over five years ago. So all of these individuals spent five years in pre-trial detention.

CO: And then at the conclusion 75 people sentenced to death. Did they get a hearing? Did they get a chance to defend themselves?

PM: Not a meaningful one. There were 75 people sentenced to death and 47 others were given life sentences. But with 739 people, 419 of whom were tried in absentia — that means that they weren't in the court at all — it's impossible to say that each person was given individualized justice.

CO: And you were representing one person which is a dual U.S.-Egyptian citizen Moustafa Kassem. Because you could follow one case, tell us walk, us through what happened? What kind of justice did this man get?

PM: Five years ago on August 14, 2013 Moustafa Kassem and his brother-in-law were out exchanging money in Cairo. That was a chaotic day in Egyptian history. There were large scale protests against the recently installed government that was installed after a military takeover. The government at the time engaged in a massive crackdown on the protesters in Rabaa Square in Cairo, killing more than 800 people on that one day. But Moustafa Kassem, my client and his brother-in-law weren't actually even at the protest. They were about two kilometres away just exchanging some money. But the government crackdown spread out far beyond Rabaa Square and they were caught up at a checkpoint by army soldiers, again, about two kilometres away from the protest themselves.

CO: How many people are like your client who were in the wrong place at the wrong time and are going to spend a lot of time in prison?

PM: I'm not sure if we'll ever know. Again, you know, with 739 different co-defendants it's very rare that one person's story was given any individualized attention.

CO: And the people who are sentenced to death, was it any different for them?

PM: I can't speak for all of them but what I do know is that all 739 co-defendants were given the same charges. All were accused of murder, protesting and being members of the Muslim Brotherhood. And by and large the reports are that the 75 people who were given death sentences were accused of and targeted for again being members of the Muslim Brotherhood.

CO: And you mentioned the Rabaa Massacre as it's called and this was a protest led by the Muslim Brotherhood and others against this military takeover of the government. And you said 800 others, have said as many as 1,000 people were killed. What has happened to any of those responsible for the Rabaa Massacre?

PM: None of the people, government officials have been prosecuted in the case that were involved in the massacre itself, which has been a huge point of contention in the human rights and international community. And, in fact, just recently the Egyptian parliament has passed a law to grant effective immunity to any of those officials that participated in that and other types of massacres during that time period.

CO: It's interesting that the previous president Hosni Mubarak was deposed because of his, well in the state of emergency here in Egypt for years. There were so many political prisoners. People have pointed out that President el-Sisi has 10 times as many as political prisoners now as President Mubarak had. What do you make of that?

PM: Well, it's true that you know estimates now are that there's more than 60,000 political prisoners in jail in Egypt. And while the Rabaa Square sit-in dispersal case is extraordinary in that it has 739 co-defendants — it's by no means the only story like that. I have another client who is one of 500 co-defendants from a case that occurred where the arrests were made just a few days after this case itself. So this is a widespread problem in Egypt and it's now been running for the full five years of his tenure in office. And there hasn't been enough international pressure to change things.

CO: What do you think that Washington should do? Should there be a response to this verdict from the White House?

PM: There has to be President Sisi has told the Trump administration that he’d specifically look into my client's case. And the Congress, the U.S. Congress has continuously raised concerns about the human rights situation in Egypt. But, it's been disappointing that the Trump administration has repeatedly released hundreds-of millions-of-dollars’ worth of aid to Egypt bypassing the human rights restrictions that go with that aid. And actually, as recently as Friday, the company ministration signaled that it would be releasing 1.2 billion — with a B — 1.2 billion dollars’ worth of military aid to Egypt.

CO: Your own client, he's already been in detention for five years. What are the chances that he is going to end up serving that 15-year prison sentence?

PM: It's — I don't know. I really don't know. Without considered and consistent attention and advocacy from the U.S. government, I fear that he will have to serve out his full 15 years. But actually my greater fear is that he won't be able to because of his health. Moustafa has had a very serious diabetic condition throughout his five years that has effectively gone negligently treated by the Egyptian officials. Just for an example, the Egyptian officials sometimes require his family to bring in his insulin but when they do bring it in they confiscate it and throw in the trash. So the cumulative effect of five years in jail with medical neglect from the staff here could be fatal.

CO: Mr. Madhiraju, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

PM: Thank you.

JD: Praveen Madhiraju is an attorney for Moustafa Kassem, an Egyptian-American who has just been sentenced to 15 years in prison in Egypt. We reached Mr. Madhiraju in Washington, D.C.

[Music: Trance Bass]

Serena Williams/Naomi Osaka U.S. Open

JD: Two days after Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka played the women's final at the U.S. Open the match is still making headlines. Today, Ms. Williams was fined 17,000 U.S. dollars for her three violations — one of which was for receiving coaching during the match. Here's how she reacted when chair umpire Carlos Ramos gave her the warning.

SOUNDCLIP

SERENA WILLIAMS: I didn’t get coaching. I didn’t get coaching. I didn’t get coaching. You need to make an announcement that I didn’t get coaching. I don’t cheat. I didn’t get coaching. How can you say that? You need to — you owe me an apology. You owe me an apology. I have never cheated in my life. I have a daughter and I stand for what’s right for her. I’ve never cheated and you owe me an apology.

JD: Mr. Ramos also made headlines today when the International Tennis Federation announced that it backed the chair umpire and that all of his controversial decisions were in accordance with the rules. And then there is the 20 year old U.S. Open champion Naomi Osaka, the first Japanese player to win a Grand Slam title. She filled the front pages of Japan's three major national newspapers this morning. She also appeared on NBC's Today program to talk with hosts Hoda Kotb and Savannah Guthrie. Ms. Osaka spoke about Saturday's match starting with what it felt like to play against her childhood idol Serena Williams.

SOUNDCLIP

NAOMI OSAKA: Right before I was walking onto the court I was freaking out a little bit. But when I went onto the court it didn't feel like she was Serena, it felt like she was another player.

HODA KOTB: And there was a chorus of boos targeted, I think at the umpire but, I guess, in your mind you didn't know what was happening. What were you feeling from just from the crowd in those moments?

NO: Well, I felt a little bit sad because I wasn't really sure if they were booing at me or if it wasn't the outcome that they wanted. And then I also could sympathize because I've been a fan of Serena my whole life and I knew how badly the crowd wanted her to win, so I don't know. I was just really emotional up there.

HK: One of the most poignant things I think happened during the trophy ceremony, you just sort of apologized for doing what you had set out to do, in a way. Tell us about that moment?

NO: I don't know, I just felt like everyone was sort of unhappy up there and I know that it wasn't really like, the ending wasn't how people wanted it to be. I know that in my dreams I won like in a very tough competitive match, so I don't know I just felt very emotional and I felt like I had to apologize.

JD: That was Naomi Osaka speaking with Hoda Kotb and Savannah Guthrie on NBC's Today program this morning. Ms. Osaka is the 2018 U.S. Open champion. She beat Serena Williams in straight sets in Saturday's final.

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September 10, 2018 episode transcript

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