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The Current Transcript for August 29, 2018

Host: Connie Walker

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

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VOICE 1: Do you believe there's a special place in hell for men who represent Christ on Earth and abuse their flock?

VOICE 2: There's certainly a special terrible judgment on someone who would abuse the trust that a priest must have.

CONNIE WALKER: That's the former Archbishop of Washington, Theodore McCarrick, back in 2004. In July, McCarrick resigned as cardinal over sex abuse allegations. And this week an extraordinary letter from a former Vatican diplomat accuses Pope Francis himself of knowing about and ignoring the allegations against the cardinal. Just weeks after a scandalous report into widespread sexual abuse in Pennsylvania, it's a trying time for the church and for individual Catholics. Coming up first today, I'll speak with one American who has made headlines around the world for standing up to his priest and demanding answers during mass. Then, we're revisiting The Current's award winning town hall series Facing Race. Today, highlights from the program in Vancouver and a special focus on access to health care; from stories of the RCMP's treatment of Indigenous patients in the ER.

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I've often tried to intervene and explain that my patient is a residential school survivor. Please don't tie them up, but no.

CW: To the barriers migrant agricultural workers can face in accessing care; as in the case of one man who needed a cast on his leg but had his reasons for not getting one.

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He refuse. He said 'sorry I don't want it because if the owner of the farm realise that I'm using it, he's definitely going to send me back home.'

CW: Those stories and much more is part of our series Facing Race. I'm Connie Walker and this is the summer edition of The Current.

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Catholic man calls out priest during mass about sex abuse scandal

Guests: Naka Nathaniel, Catherine Clifford

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VOICE 1: We were taught -- I mean the priests and the nuns or God.

VOICE 2: Just like the word God makes me think of him and I just [Crying].

VOICE 1: You're being groomed to get used to a grown man's hands on you regularly.

VOICE 2: So he would always have his hands on me.

CW: The voices of victims, just a few of the more than 1000 who were sexually abused by priests in Pennsylvania according to a grand jury report released there earlier this month. Their stories were part of the backdrop last week as Pope Francis traveled to Ireland, asking forgiveness for sexual abuse by priests there. And now there are troubling allegations being raised about the Pope himself and whether he knew about sexual abuse allegations against a prominent American archbishop. The explosive letter written by a former Vatican ambassador to the United States, Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano, have led to turmoil in the church and calls for the Pope's resignation. There's a dark cloud over the church today, and even before these latest allegations, one Catholic parishioner Naka Nathaniel struck a chord with many of his fellow American Catholics by voicing his frustrations during the middle of Mass two Sundays ago. Naka Nathaniel joins us from Atlanta, Georgia. Hello.

NAKA NATHANIEL: Hi Connie. Thank you for having me.

CW: Thank you for joining us. Why did you decide to stand up and speak out during your church service?

NAKA NATHANIEL: Oh that's still a difficult thing that I'm trying to figure out, why I ended up standing as you know as a Catholic and an altar boy and you know my family is so steeped in the religion. And you know it's something you just don't do. And the priest asked a question, left something so open ended that you know I came to church that Sunday seeking answers and to be left with a question you know I just could not sit in my seat. And you know stood up and asked him how? How do we change this? The priest had asked, what should we do? And I was like, we cannot leave it like this.

CW: What specifically was it that the priest said that you responded to?

NAKA NATHANIEL: You know he had start off his homily you know incredibly pensive. You know it is obvious that he's a Jesuit priest and he had given this you know quite a lot of thought. And he also invoked some of the teachings from you know Vatican too, about moving the power from the pulpit to become like the Church of the people. And there was a lot of imploring that the people had to be you know responsible here; hold the powers to account. At the moment you know there was just no conduit, people sit in the pews, you listen to what the you know -- what the priest, what the clergy have to say and you respond you know the prayers that have been taught to you and there's no room in there for any sort of question or answer time. I told the priest later on you know I appreciated his grace in taking my question and engaging in a conversation.

CW: So you stood up and you said, "How? How should we respond to this?" What response were you -- What were you expecting from him at that moment?

NAKA NATHANIEL: I had no idea. And the answer that he gave me was that we needed to write the nuncio. Write the bishop. And engage in a letter writing campaign. And I was like, you know this is a bureaucratic answer -- I need something more. And I happen have my 9 year old son with me and you know I pointed to him, and you know how can I have him take first communion in this church as it is? There's just no way. And you know he gave a very honest answer.

CW: He made one comment when he came over to talk to you that really stuck with you, what was that?

NAKA NATHANIEL: So just before the recessional he addressed my son and asked him what his name was. Then the priest was incredibly kind and said you know you have a good dad. And then he turned to me and then he said you know you and I have no influence. And it was crushing you know to hear that but it was also brutally honest. It was an opportunity for all of us to understand as people in the pews that if that's the case then we need to fix this. You know this cannot continue, because we've seen the horrors when the clergy is left unchecked.

CW: I want to play you some of the tape of the victims in Pennsylvania, released by the Attorney General there, talking about the abuse and how it has affected them.

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VOICE 1: I just feel like I've -- like my whole life has been a lie.

VOICE 2: Has absolutely destroyed me.

VOICE 3: My children suffered. Why suffered?

VOICE 4: My dad found out. He went crazy.

VOICE 5: I had no desire to have children. None. Because of this.

VOICE 6: My children and I couldn't hold or hug.

VOICE 7: I didn't feel comfortable at all. I still don't feel comfortable now in a relationship [Crying].

CW: Wow. What's your reaction to hearing those voices?

NAKA NATHANIEL: It's crushing. It's heartbreaking. And I used to be a journalist and one of those things that you know we used to go out and cover is you know hearing difficult stories like this and every single time that somebody does that you know it's so difficult for them to tell their stories and it's almost you know you're being handed, gift is not the right word, but you know you're being handed something incredibly precious and you have to honour that and honour their courage. And when it comes time you know to step up and to do something about that that's when you know you're charged to help.

CW: Your family is also devoutly Catholic, how did they find out about what you did in Mass?

NAKA NATHANIEL: The crazy thing about this is that when church was over a couple people came up and spoke to me and then I sat down with my son and I tried to explain to him you know what had happened. Then we jumped back on our bicycles and rode back home. And that was it. That was the end of the story for me. And given that it's the 21st century, somebody tweeted about it.

CW: Someone who was in the church there with you and saw you stand up.

NAKA NATHANIEL: Exactly. And as it happens she's a Catholic theologian at Emory University here, Dr. Susan Reynolds and she tweeted about it and it was later on that evening -- Monday evening when somebody sent me the link. And like you said I come from you know very devout family. And so I emailed my sister and brother and said you guys are my safe harbor in this, I just want to let you know that this had happened. And as it was my sister had heard Dr. Reynolds on the radio.

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VOICE: Susan Reynolds was in the pews at St. Thomas More. She's also a professor of Catholic Studies at Emory University School of Theology. Welcome.

DR. SUSAN REYNOLDS: Thank you.

NAKA NATHANIEL: And said, that was you?

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DR. SUSAN REYNOLDS: When all of a sudden in about the fifth row, a dad stood up.

NAKA NATHANIEL: My sister -- and again she didn't know it was me at the time, she says I was cheering for that dad.

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DR. SUSAN REYNOLDS: [Voice fades in] Never have I ever seen anything like this. He was shaking. He was determined. He was terrified.

CW: I'm curious what your son's reaction was after seeing his father stand up?

NAKA NATHANIEL: You know I'm trying to keep him as -- we want him to become aware but we don't want him to be too precocious you know about some of these things and so we've been trying to be as gentle as possible with introducing these things. And you know bless his heart you know when I sat down to talk to him I said you know what I did was not what you are supposed to do. You're not supposed to speak out in Mass. But sometimes you know there are moments when you really want to you know you have to stand up and say something. And you know like I said bless his little heart you know he says, oh it's like the Freedom Riders. And I was like, oh you know that's stretching the analogy but if that's what you understand it to be you know it's you know what I did was you know I said something to the bus driver you know with the intention of you know maybe the people who are riding the bus would be the ones to eventually act. Come to realize that all Catholics need to confront in themselves you know what has happened and that we can no longer compartmentalize what has occurred as much as you know we may admire you know a nun you know working with AIDS patients in Zimbabwe you know you still also put that good. But then you also need to you know realize that there's also all these other evils that have occurred in the name of the church also. And that's just something that needs to be resolved in every Catholic.

CW: What about these latest allegations against Pope Francis himself that he knew about and ignored allegations against an American cleric?

NAKA NATHANIEL: Again, there needs to be more reporting on this. You know I understand there's a lot of palace intrigue involved in this story and you know I leave it to you know the reporters to figure out exactly what's the right story. I think it's a little bit early in whatever has happened.

CW: What do you want the church to do now? Is there any kind of change that would satisfy you as a Catholic or reassure you that you can trust the church?

NAKA NATHANIEL: Connie that's an amazing question. I have spent the last -- ever since that last Sunday going between clenching my fists and clutching my face. You know I just don't know you know what is to be done, but I do know that it cannot be left in the hands of the clergy as it exists to figure this out and that it has to be you know from the people. And I just cannot motivate Catholics enough to just cannot sit in the pews any longer and just allow this to happen. We have to stand up. And I wasn't the only person you know who has subsequently stood up in our church. You know somebody else stood up beside me this past Sunday and you know it was somebody who was much more clear headed and he stood up and said you know we're going to figure this out you know -- I want to be part of this change. And that's what I wanted to have happen. It's not going to come from the Pope, it's not going to come from the Bishops, or the Cardinals, or the priests. It has to come from the people in the pews.

CW: Thank you very much Naka for sharing with us today.

NAKA NATHANIEL: Thank you so much Connie. I really appreciate the opportunity to chat with you about this.

CW: Naka Nathaniel is a former videographer and editor and a frustrated Catholic. He lives in Atlanta, Georgia. Catherine Clifford has been listening to our conversation. She is a professor of theology at Saint Paul University in Ottawa and she joins us from our Ottawa studio. Hello.

CATHERINE CLIFFORD: Good morning Connie.

CW: Catherine I want to get your thoughts on how the church is grappling with these allegations of sex abuse and cover ups in a minute, but first, what do you make of Naka Nathaniel's story?

CATHERINE CLIFFORD: Well it's a really remarkable story of I think great courage. I think he's asking the right questions and it sounds like the pastor in his church was also very understanding and receptive and it sounds like his action might begin a conversation that we all need to have across the Catholic church today.

CW: So what is that conversation that you think people need to have?

CATHERINE CLIFFORD: Well I think he's exactly right when he says that the solution to the problem of sexual abuse and the stories of cover up that continue to come to the surface today reveal the magnitude of a systemic failure that can only be addressed by all Catholics working together. Pope Francis wrote a letter to all people in the church about ten days ago on the 20th of August acknowledging that this is not just an American problem. This is not just a North American problem. We see stories coming to the surface now in Mexico, Chile, in India, in Africa, in Australia. So there's something in the system that has failed and part of the failure is the distance between the men who govern the church and the people. And so we must create spaces for conversation. Francis has said we need a complete change in the culture of the church and the solution will depend on the participation, in the full participation, of all baptized Catholics across the church. He's saying that the clergy needs the help, of the laypeople, of competent people, professional people, to address these structural failures.

CW: I definitely want to continue to talk about that. But first, let's get back to the letter that was written by Archbishop Carlo Vigano about Pope Francis. He's a former Vatican diplomat in the United States. Walk us through what he wrote in the letter about Pope Francis.

CATHERINE CLIFFORD: Well first of all it's important to say this is not the first time that Bishop Vigano has launched accusations of corruption concerning men in highly placed leaders in the Vatican. He has written an 11 page memo accusing many high ranking officials in the Roman Curia of ignoring complaints and covering up the sexual misconduct of Theodore McCarrick, who Francis has removed now from the College of Cardinals and suspended from all public ministry. And then he also accuses Francis of knowing about this abuse and covering it up. Now none of this has been substantiated. His charges have been questioned -- the veracity of some of the facts in his letter by other leaders in the church. So I would agree with Mr. Nathaniel that there needs to be some much more clarity about this and some investigation to deal with his accusations. But he represents also I think a group of more conservative Catholics who are very uncomfortable with Pope Francis and his style of leadership and it seems like an effort also to sort of politicize the crisis which is -- he's calling for Pope Francis resignation.

CW: So when Pope Francis was asked about these latest allegations by Archbishop Vigano he kept silent, he said I will not say a single word about this -- I believe the statement speaks for itself. What do you think of his reaction to these allegations?

CATHERINE CLIFFORD: I mean it's a little unfortunate if he wanted to deny the accusations he didn't do so directly. But he's just saying to us, well let's let the facts speak for themselves. And so I do think.

CW: Is there any evidence to support Vigano's claims?

CATHERINE CLIFFORD: Vigano has provided no claims to support, to substantiate, his accusations. He also claims that during the pontificate of Pope Benedict that Pope Benedict attempted to suspend Cardinal McCarrick from the public practice of his ministry but there is no evidence to support his claim that this happened.

CW: So some people say and obviously you're alluding to the fact that this letter might actually be part of a bigger divide in the church, the division between liberals and conservatives. Can you help us understand that?

CATHERINE CLIFFORD: Well I think that Francis has been I think from the beginning of his election in 2013 attempting to address much of the culture that's at the root of these scandals. And it's the culture of clericalism and this has made many traditional Catholics and people with a very clericalist mindset who are more interested in protecting the structures of power and who are perhaps made very uneasy by his challenges. And so they're very uneasy with his leadership.

CW: How do you think that Catholics view the way that Pope Francis has handled you know this division in the church but also the allegations of sex abuse and cover ups within the church?

CATHERINE CLIFFORD: I think Francis is the first bishop of Rome first of all to acknowledge the magnitude of the harm done to many of the victims and survivors. He has gone to great lengths to really really listen to their experience, to understand the magnitude and the dynamics of the problem. He's the first bishop who acknowledges that this is a worldwide and systemic problem. And to acknowledge that this requires a complete change in the culture of the church. And I think this has to be also accompanied by structural change and the introduction of structures. You heard the frustration of Naka Nathaniel. Yeah. Is that they have no influence. They feel completely disempowered. And so this distance between the leadership of the church and the people in the pews has to be addressed and we have to create spaces to really listen and comprehend the dynamics of this and then seek new ways of building more structures that are participatory and dialogical.

CW: So very quickly, I mean you say Pope Francis is acknowledging and creating space for listening but is that enough?

CATHERINE CLIFFORD: Well a lot of people feel nervous that it's not enough and he should be more decisive and create new structures even within the Vatican -- especially for what we're seeing now is the frustration for many years now; we have to say in Canada and in the United States for decades we've introduced policies to deal with the accusations of abuse against clergy and hundreds of priests have been removed from ministry. But we haven't had this kind of accountability for bishops. And so the problem coming to the surface today is we're seeing also the culture that allowed the cover up at every level of the life of the church.

CW: Sorry Catherine we're going to have to leave it there. Thank you for joining us.

CATHERINE CLIFFORD: Thank you Connie.

CW: Catherine Clifford is a professor of theology at Saint Paul University in Ottawa. The CBC News is next. Then, we're revisiting highlights from The Current's town hall series Facing Race. I'm Connie Walker and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

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'It has eaten a hole in my heart': Indigenous nurses call out systemic racism with life-or-death consequences

CW: Hello I'm Connie Walker and you're listening to this summer edition of The Current. Still to come, highlights from our Vancouver town hall looking at the impact of racism on health care. But before we get to that, a new season of The Current kicks off next week with Anna Maria Tremonti back in the host chair. And one of the first stories she'll have for you is about a new true crime documentary series currently streaming on CBC. It's about the crimes and misdemeanors that take place on Canada's farms. George Dowdle's oyster farm in Prince Edward Island was robbed more than once. Here he is speaking to Anna Maria about it.

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GEORGE DOWDLE: We were going to the cancer treatment centre in Charlottetown and had an appointment with the cancer doctor and with the radiologist -- radiation therapy [inaudible]. And you know I'm waving at this guy. Known him for like forty years. You know he's fisher but he has been in the industry you know basically his whole life.

AMT: Waving at him on the road as you drive away - you mean toward the cancer centre.

GEORGE DOWDLE: Yeah. Like everybody knew that my wife was sick. I mean oyster community is very very small spot, even globally it is a very small spot. Everybody knows everybody either by name or by reputation. So then I'm down there with her and you know we're trying to deal with this. And you know it's still pretty fresh. She was diagnosed about probably four days-five days before this. So you know life is starting to look pretty good for us and then all of a sudden, bang. Anyway I get a call [inaudible] beside me who says there's someone in the middle of your property. I said well which -- where you at? So then I called the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and I said you know this is -- I'm getting tired of this because it's an ongoing thing. It has been a continual problem. And you know you need to come down there right away because you know I'm coming home in about 120 mile an hour and when I go down there he isn't going to like what he gets because I'm sick of it.

AMT: How many times had this happened to you?

GEORGE DOWDLE: Over the past ten years, 2-3 times a year this happens.

AMT: So when you got the call that day that it was happening again what did you think?

GEORGE DOWDLE: Oh. Well put it this way you ever hear the expression of your losing your [censor beep] well it way worse than that.

AMT: Specially on a day when you were with your wife trying to get treatment.

GEORGE DOWDLE: Exactly. I mean here she is with terminal cancer and we're you know --we're trying to deal with that and I'm trying to be very upbeat for her. You know? And you're still spinning from it because you know you just got told your wife is going to die. So you know. And you know this is happening again and again and again and again. I've probably lost over a hundred thousand dollars just in stolen oysters. Stolen equipment. Where does it stop?

CW: For George Dowdle it stopped with the oyster thief being prosecuted and convicted, a first in Canada. That's just one of the stories we'll be featuring in our new season starting next week. You're listening to the summer edition of The Current on CBC Radio 1. I'm Connie Walker. This past season The Current did something special, a series of town halls in Montreal, Halifax, and Vancouver. All focused on tackling some of the racial tensions that still define life in this country. Today we're going to bring you highlights from the Vancouver town hall which we first broadcast in March. The focus was on health care; through anecdotes and studies it has been shown time and time again that discrimination against Indigenous people is pervasive in the healthcare system and the stories you're about to hear from B.C. resonate across the country. Here is Facing Race from Vancouver hosted by Piya Chattopadhyay.

PC: Racism against indigenous people in Canada's health care system is well documented and it has had life and death consequences. I have two nurses with me who are indigenous to talk about the sometimes life threatening prejudice they witness while on the frontlines of health care from emergency rooms to bedsides, but also how they're intervening to make a difference. Tanya Dick is the president of the Association of Registered Nurses of British Columbia and she is a member of the Dzawada'enuxw First Nations of Kingcome Inlet and Diane lingren is a Metis nurse and the provincial chair for the Aboriginal Leadership Caucus at the B.C. Nurses Union. Hi to both of you.

TANYA DICK: Hi

DIANE LINGREN: Hello.

PC: Tanya. Let's start with you. Start with your origin story. Why did you decide to be a nurse?

TANYA DICK: I actually went to school and wanted to apply for medical school but my grandmother got sick so I had to stay home with her. She didn't have much longer to live and I ended up going to nursing school to get some sort of undergrad to get into med school but fell in love with nursing and just stayed the course. My mum was a nurse as well so she had a huge influence on me.

PC: So this runs of the family. Diane, how about you? How did you come into nursing?

DIANE LINGREN: I had my children young and I was married young. I had always kind of made an arrangement with myself, an agreement that by the time my youngest son was in grade one that I would go back to university. So actually when Elijah was in grade two way I managed to go back to school and I married to this wonderfully supportive man that just did everything in his power to make my dream come true.

PC: When you were thinking about going into nursing did you, and if you did, how much did you think about the intersection of nursing and Indigenous health?

DIANE LINGREN: Not even a tiny bit. It never crossed my mind.

PC: And now?

DIANE LINGREN: It has eaten a hole in my heart. It makes me cry regularly. I've had issues with RCMP officers in the hospital that I work in and I beg them to not take people away in handcuffs. There's just such a huge discrepancy.

PC: And so tell me about when you have had a patient come in to the healthcare facility where you work and there's an RCMP intervention. What does that look like when an Indigenous person comes in and the RCMP are called in for whatever reason?

DIANE LINGREN: We could have a non-indigenous person that came in intoxicated and you know that person can be quite lively and acting out and causing some problems. What I see happen with them is they're given food, told to settle down and then they get a cab ride to one of the halfway houses or one of the like the night places that we have that open up, some of the churches open up spaces at night. With indigenous people I see the RCMP called. I see the RCMP handcuff those people. I see them handcuff their ankles to their wrists so they can't walk, they can't run away so they won't be a problem. I see those people get taken away in the police cars. And I've often tried to intervene and explain that my patient is a residential school survivor. Please don't tie them up. I will take them out. I will put them in your car I'll put their seat belt on. No. I am told by the RCMP that they're doing that for their own protection.

PC: I want to mention a response we got from the RCMP about some of the ways you said your patients have been treated by them. Here's part of what the RCMP has sent to us: "In any interaction with the public RCMP members are guided by the RCMP bias free policing policy which is based on the principles of equality and non-discrimination. Bias free policing means equitable treatment of all persons by all RCMP employees in the performance of their duties in accordance with the law and without abusing their authority regardless of an individual's race, national or ethnic origin, sexual orientation and so on." It's hard to talk about, huh?

DIANE LINGREN: Very hard, yes.

PC: And I guess what must also be hard is that the call to the RCMP come from your colleagues. We all have colleagues and so what do you say?

DIANE LINGREN: I tried to educate. I try to come from a place of peace. I try to- I get a lot of hate. I am a union steward at my workplace. My phone number is everywhere. I get phone calls, I get texts, I get Facebook messages. I get all kinds of things that come back to me. I get complaints put in to my employer. It's really really brutal

PC: And without going into the name calling and the denigration that you get, they say these things to you because they think you're what? You're doing something wrong? What is the assumption that they're making?

DIANE LINGREN: I am told that I am prejudiced against white people. That's the basic explanation of what happens.

PC: Tanya Dick, give me a sense of the kind of racism that you have seen in patient care.

TANYA DICK: From a personal perspective I just think about the Brian Sinclair case in Winnipeg back in 2008. The individual who had passed away in E.R. after 36 hours. My family has a Brian Sinclair story. We brought my aunt, my mum's sister, into emerge. She had presented herself after firing in the bathroom, it was unwitnessed fall, hit her head, was kind of staggering a little bit confused when she arrived. We ended up having an inquest and the ER form stated she was under the influence. As we progress, and this happened over about 18 hours, didn't progress to a higher level of care. Her head injury increased and she died as a result of it. And I think when we went through the inquest and we looked through every point of care; she was seen by the physicians, the nurses, the care aides, the RCMP, the ambulance crew, back to the RCMP, back to emerge again. It was 17 contacts with health professionals and that incident wasn't caught and every single one of them believed she was under the influence of alcohol. So she didn't get the proper care she required. It was a preventable death just like Brian Sinclair's were. And then I have the privilege and opportunity with the rule that I am in to travel throughout different communities and everywhere I went they had a Brian Sinclair's story.

PC: I want to talk about the assumptions and let's just call them what they are. So I'm an Indigenous person and I slipped and hurt my foot and I come into a health care facility whether it be in B.C. or anywhere in our country. What are the assumptions that are made about me as you see them?

TANYA DICK: It's drug seeking behavior and labelled as such, wrapped up, casted up, done whatever is needed but not even given anything for pain management or pain medication that anybody normally should. And they actually say that, I actually hear people say that. You know I'm sitting in the emerge room with my cousin who just got hurt on the soccer field and has played soccer around the world and they're accusing her of drug seeking. And it's like she's the healthiest person I know and the squarest person I know and it's just so unfair.

PC: For anyone who is injured or hurt going to a hospital, it's daunting. It's stressful. Tell me more about what you see that sets indigenous people's experiences in healthcare apart from everyone else. What other kinds of things are you seeing, Diane?

DIANE LINGREN: As a nurse and someone who has worked very closely with surgeons for many years. Two have them come to mind who have openly stated and actually give an education to the nurses and the surgical unit about how indigenous people have different pain receptors and do not need the same level of narcotics for surgeries.

PC: And what does nurse Diane say to that point?

DIANE LINGREN: The first time I try to gently pull them aside and have that conversation with them and explain that I am Metis. I feel pain and that I don't think I'm different than anybody else. That doctor then told me that he'd actually been to a Forum that had given him that education. So he's not the only one out there. I've seen those Brian Sinclair times more often than ever should have happened across Canada. Period. People who come in that have like Tanya's auntie had a bad fall, have a head injury, right away 'oh, there was alcohol in the house. They are drunk'. They come in, no C.T., no blood work, put in a bed and left in a corner. When I have taken that patients or those types of patients as own patient for the 12 hour shifts that we work I always - it doesn't matter who they are - I always go back and do research on each person. I want to know how they got to where they are and what I can do to support them, if there's something that's been missed. I don't trust anybody. It's my licence that's on the line for these things, too. And not only that but just the morality of having that person who has loved ones in my care is such a gift to me when I find discrepancies like this I do report them. I've had really supportive doctors that have come to my aid and really stood by and thankfully, but then I get these little meetings that I am called in to and I am told that I should probably be careful that people that like to dig for things get in trouble. So I just say what am I digging for? I was looking into my patient chart because there are my responsibility for that 12 hours.

PC: I imagine that both of you get sometimes: Your job is to be a nurse and you know put the bandage on, put the cast on, make the patient feel comfortable. Your activism needs to be left on the side. You say what to that?

TANYA DICK: I've been challenged that a number of times and I'm fortunate to have some leverage that I work in an indigenous community that you have to bring that advocacy into the workplace. And I think as nurses across the board and across the country it is part of our practice, it is part of our scope. And it's something that we sign off on our licence that we're going to do in an appropriate manner for all people. So when people do challenge me on that - and I'm challenged regularly that advocacy piece that I do with nursing within the healthcare as an Indigenous woman, I have to let it roll off my back. I will respond but I will continue as well.

PC: Given that these, they just come together; who you are and what you do. They come as a pair. How much pressure does that put on you, not only on your day to day job but speaking about it publicly? Because here we are speaking about it publicly. We're naming out. We're talking about it. You said you get some blowback from your colleagues.

DIANE LINGREN: I do.

PC: I imagine you might get some after this.

DIANE LINGREN: Probably.

PC: And how much pressure does that put you under?

DIANE LINGREN: It's an immense amount of pressure. I'm not afraid to talk in front of people. I am afraid of the backlash.

PC: That in your thinking might look like what?

DIANE LINGREN: Might my youngest son said to me when he was about, I think it was 12 or 13 years old, he said Mum you're going to get shot one day. That's pretty brutal. Just because I stuck up for somebody.

PC: I want to play a clip for you both. Nadine Caron first indigenous female surgeon in Canada - Look at the smiles on your faces - [Laughter] And here she is talking about a first nations patient's reaction when they met.

SOUNDCLIP

An example patient walks into my office. She is a First Nation is maybe that's travelled a distance. And I walk in and I ask her what nation she is from. She tells me and I explain, 'Oh you know I am Anishnabwe I am from the other end of Canada' and she starts to cry. She just breaks down crying. She's, I don't know, in her early 80s. She says I never thought I would ever ever see and come to talk to and Indian doctor. Eight decades. You gotta meet my grandkids. You gotta talk to them, you gotta come to my community. You gotta tell them that this is possible. So there is that element of it where you just see this relief sort of wash over her face.

PC: Tanya Dick what are you thinking as you hear what Nadine Caron is saying there?

TANYA DICK: I was visualizing my last set of shifts back home. The phone rings in the front and you have to walk through the trauma room in emerge room to the door to let them in. And then when they saw my face they literally were jumping up and down outside the door. It is so cute because as terrible as it is. They're just excited to see this brown face. They're excited to see one of their own and that they weren't going to have to deal with or experience what they were afraid or assume that they were going to deal with when they walked into the door to get help for whatever their issues were. And that happens literally every shift. So the answer they say we want to increase numbers of nurses and physicians and healthcare professionals of indigenous ancestry to help kind of project that. But that's part of it. Right. But we have to come at it from the other angle too because people- I don't like people jumping up and down outside the door of an emerge department but they should be happy to see whoever is there and feel safe and not have to worry about what they're walking into.

PC: And Diane Lingren when you hear where Nadine Caron said and when you got to work- Because you are white passing, right. People may not immediately assume that you are Metis. So when you hear Nadine Caron and Tanya say people jump up for joy when they see people who are indigenous being at the front lines of health care. That says what to you?

DIANE LINGREN: It's immense but it's a daily occurrence. I've been called a 'Windian' I've been called..

PC: A 'Windian'.

DIANE LINGREN: A 'Windian'. I am a White Indian.

PC: Whoa.

DIANE LINGREN: 'White eyes', or 'Whitey'. I've had managers saying 'well what are you?' And I just - it's a rhetorical question I say 'what are you? I am a nurse.' [Laughter]

PC: Know we're having these series of town halls not only to illuminate the problems that our country is being challenged by, historically and in modern times, but also to try and bridge the divides, come up with some solutions. We know that there is systemic racism in the healthcare and you two have been talking with me about the individual experience, the day to day. So let me ask you both this. What's it going to take- It's a big question. You ready? What's it going to take to confront and tackle the racism you say you both face along with your patients?

TANYA DICK: This moment is kind of a turning point in my career. It's these platforms that we need to have, these difficult conversations that leading up to the days to this night and we're just getting more and more out. It was a great situation to put ourselves into to talk about our profession and our colleagues and a system that we work in and identify with that hurts people, but it's such an important conversation to have. The change will not happen until we have this conversation and in a way it's a two way conversation it's not being talked to as indigenous people and indigenous people talking to non-indigenous.

PC: Thank you to both of you. Thank you. [Applause]

PC: Tanya Dick is the president of the Association of Registered Nurses of British Columbia and she is a member of the Dzawada'enuxw First Nations of Kingcome Inlet, Diane Lingren is a provincial chair of the Aboriginal Leadership Caucus for the B.C. Nurses' Union. I want to mention we reached out to the Canadian Nurses Association to ask them about what they're doing to address conscious and unconscious bias in health care. They told us they're working with communities, federal and provincial governments to implement the Truth and Reconciliation Commissions health related recommendations. The association also says and I quote: "Indigenous people can count on CNA's unwavering support for meaningful and continued reconciliation and in efforts to counter stereotypes and racism contributing to unsafe care and poor health outcomes". [Music]

PC: We followed up on some of the more serious concerns we just heard. Diane lingren works with the Interior Health Authority in B.C. and we ask the authority if it was aware of concerns she raised about some health workers not adequately medicating indigenous patients for pain, because of false assumptions that they feel less pain than others. And we also asked what their policy was on calling RCMP officers to deal with patients. Here is part of what they sent us: "Concerns raised about the treatment and experiences of Aboriginal patients and staff are taken very seriously. There are no clinical practices or policies at Interior Health which are based on race or ethnicity. Involving the RCMP and situations in emergency departments is a last resort. Staff are trained to deal escalate challenging situations safely and respectfully". We also contacted the College of Physicians and Surgeons of British Columbia. Here is part of what they sent us: "The college has never received a complaint or even heard anecdotally that a physician didn't medicate an indigenous patient appropriately based on a belief that she or he feels less pain than a non-indigenous patient. Denying such care would be completely inappropriate and may lead to allegations of discrimination which would be carefully investigated'. We will have these full statements along with more of the RCMP response to the concerns raised about hand cuffing patients all at our Web site at cbc.ca/thecurrent.

CW: That was Piya Chattopadhyay in Vancouver hosting The Current's town hall special Facing Race. We first aired that discussion in March. We'll bring you more highlights from that special in our next half hour. We'll hear about the experiences migrant workers face trying to get medical care in Canada. And the studio audience will weigh in with their questions. To find out more about The Current's series Facing Race and to listen to town halls from Halifax and Montreal visit our website at cbc.ca/thecurrent. I'm Connie Walker and this is the summer edition of The Current.

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Why migrant workers call this man for medical help instead of seeing a doctor

CW: I'm Connie Walker and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current. Last season The Current hosted a series of town halls focusing on racial tensions across Canada called Facing Race. We were in Halifax and Montreal and in Vancouver. And today we've been bringing you highlights from our show in Vancouver. It took place in March with host Piya Chattopadhyay. And we'll pick it up as Piya looks into the challenges that migrant workers can face in getting access to healthcare. Workers like Danny.

SOUNDCLIP

Hello my name is Danny from Caribbean. I have been here nine month. I came here for working [unintelligible]. Now I am pregnant, so I need help because I'm feeling good. I am bleeding. Yes. I don't have medical coverage because I applied already but they did not answer my requests. I need Byron because he has some connection to can help me in some hospital. If I didn't have his help to me is like- I can't be lived in my situation. It is very difficult. I don't have any help and the city is so expensive. I can't go to the hospital by myself without medical insurance.

PC: That is Danny, she is here from the Caribbean and as you heard her say she is pregnant and the man she goes to for help is Byron Cruz an outreach worker with sanctuary health here in Vancouver. It is an organization that helps migrant workers navigate a sometimes precarious healthcare system. Many undocumented workers in Vancouver call Byron cellphone instead of going to see a doctor. They're often afraid of doing that because their names might be turned over to border officials. But there is also another group of workers in B.C. who have been calling Byron's phone. They're seasonal farm workers who have come to Canada with a illegal work permit and many do have health insurance and yet they still call Byron. Byron Cruz is here with us now. Hi.

BYRON CRUZ: Hi.

PC: We just heard about Danny. How common is that kind of situation?

BYRON CRUZ: It is very common. I was just texting with Danny, she cannot hear us today because she's working. She's working 14 hours today.

PC: And just so I understand this correctly, Byron, there are people who are working here in Canada legally. They have their work permits. They have health insurance but there is a waiting period before that insurance kicks in. Is that right?

BYRON CRUZ: Yes there is no illegal in working. Working is a human need, is a human activity to survive. And yes people who come here for example who we are talking about temporary workers who come to work in the fields they might have a private insurance. But with the private insurance might not cover pregnancy may not cover- Actually when they went to hospitals we had situations with a migrant worker went to a hospital [unintelligible] the only thing that he had was a private insurance and the hospital say no we don't take it. He said but I don't have money to pay and then they call [unintelligible] police. Police show up and unfortunately another advocate was called to come. She came to help the migrant worker and the officer said Yes I don't have nothing to be with this case.

PC: And so no matter what situation but for those that - I mean I shouldn't say that because there may be a delineation, but for people who have health insurance, right, who are coming here to work in Canada, what is the disconnect for them? What are they afraid of in calling for help through official channels?

BYRON CRUZ: In our work at Sanctuary Health we work with people with precarious Immigration status and precarious immigration status mean many many types of status. It can be the migrant worker that comes with a working permit and it's precarious because temporary migrant workers do not have the right for a permanent residence. Temporary workers do not have the right to work with other employer. So if they are abused in the farm they cannot change to another farm.

PC: So when they come to work can the employer that hires them, they have to work for that employer or leave.

BYRON CRUZ: They have to work with the employer. And imagine that this female migrant workers will get pregnant. We've had situations when they had to hide the pregnancy for many months because they are afraid. And also we have people who get injured at work. The only thing that they use is the Tylenol or the aspirin that the grandma put in their back pack when they came to Canada because they're afraid of going into the hospital because the owner of the farm will know that they are sick or they got injured. And for sure that this will have an impact and next year they will not come back because the owner will say you get sick too often. That's nothing nothing compared to the different abuses that they are having in the farms. They have GPS. Migrant workers have GPS in some farms where they had to turn on the GPS every morning. They had to mark when they want to pee. This count at the end of the season this come in the summary and if they went to the washroom many times they are not allowed to come next season.

PC: So the migrant worker who is here for say eight months of the year, goes back to their home country, that employer has the right to hire them again next year. What I think I'm hearing from you is what you're saying if a migrant worker breaks his leg at work working in the fields he or she doesn't go to the hospital to get healthcare.

BYRON CRUZ: Well depending on the farm but in many many firearms there are so afraid to do it. We had situations in the farm. This was a different story was a migrant worker playing soccer who had a fracture and then the physician needed him to be immobilised for a few weeks, have a cast. And basically he refused. He said sorry. I don't want it because of the owner of the farm realise that I am using it, he is definitely going to send me back home. And then he was on pain medications for a few weeks trying not to show his pain and this was a farm where the owner beat the one of the workers and the worker dropped a tomato and he came- He was not the owner he was the manager. He came and hit him on the face because dropping a tomato phase. Then 40 workers working there were so afraid of denouncing what was going on in that farm. This is Canada.

PC: So when they call you Byron and say 'Byron I slipped or was playing soccer and I broke my leg and I'm too scared to go to a Canadian hospital' because of all the consequences that you have- potential consequences that you have spoken to. What do you tell them to do?

BYRON CRUZ: Well it is really scary. If it is a phone call, we usually we ask people to send us picture of the jury. And I recently sent to CBC one of the fingers that had a nail that went through the finger and the worker was so afraid of going to the hospital because hospitals are also point of entrance to Guyana that border service agency. Many physicians many specialists in the Vancouver coastal health area called CBSA when there is a worker who cannot pay for the service. We situations when surgeons and anaesthesiologists call Immigration Services when a woman go for having a labour in the hospital we have rule that we will be calling sometime soon [unintelligible] of decisions to make all of these nonsense that are happening in the Vancouver coastal health area.

PC: I got to say that there are some people listening right now who are saying 'Byron you seem to be talking about things that we hear about the United States, not in Canada, that people aren't seeking care in our health care facilities because they are scared that they will have an immigration official show up at their door.

BYRON CRUZ: Definitely there are so many people were afraid with a lot of the reasons. Hundreds or phone calls went from the hospitals in the Fraser health authority few year ago, they call immigration so many times for workers that were injured there? What for? Just because there is a law, there is an internal policy that allows them to [unintelligible] workers who are too sick? What is about? Where is privacy? Where is the confidentiality? 10,000 migrant workers come to BC every year and they are not respected, their confidentiality is not respected. And then we had a campaign against Fraser Health. And finally we are happy to say that in our last resort since January last year official no phone calls have been gone from the hospitals of Fraser health to Canada Borders. We hope that does not going to happen again. If it happen again they will hear been from us.

PC: Okay. I want to play a bit of tape from you. This is Harsha Waliaa the community organizer here in Vancouver and she says the migrant worker program was designed with specific certain goals in mind.

SOUNDCLIP

The migrant worker program actually started, its kind of genesis was that it was workers from the Caribbean that were brought into Canada and particularly because Canada wanted people to work as cheap labor but did not want to change the ‘Whitness’ of Canada. And so the migrant worker program has its roots in this philosophy of white Canada forever and particularly in anti-Black immigration policy. And even though you know now it's not as explicit in its racism, like you won't to see those words anywhere but the intent is exactly the same. I would argue ensuring that racialized people, particularly black and brown people, are in Canada but only under the position of subjugation and to perform labor and then be removed.

PC: Byron Cruz when you hear that what do you think? Do you echo what she's saying?

BYRON CRUZ: I definitely support her statement and this is a system of exploitation and they know that having brown people like us we are going we would call for rights to unionize. We're coming with lots of fears because we have been oppressed and repressed in our countries and here we have been oppressed now and we know have the boys because if the migrant workers raise their boys they will come next year.

PC: What do you tell these migrant workers?

BYRON CRUZ: We are always terrified to see what the situation is. If we have someone who had an injury who needs emergency right away we are always clear to people 'you need to go to emergency. We might accompany you. Then we start asking our collective members to see what can accompany them to the hospital. At least for the hospital to see that someone is behind them supporting them. And then if we have the time to assess we will assess. But sometimes we have a situation like someone who had an injury on his face he needs the stitches. We couldn't find a nurse who could do these stitches. It was three hours, four hour trying to find a community centre that could do it. We were told 'No. No. We can do it' and then a member of the collective who is a veterinary guy he said 'if no one does it I will do it because I have done that on the cow before'. For sure he would do the best job. But fortunately a nurse practitioners called on time as well. He went to a community clinic but many practitioners still has 'sorry Byron. I cannot doing in the clinic but I do it after my shift. Byron sorry I'm having my dinner' This guy with a dislocated arm and then the doctors say 'I'm having my dinner. But ask the guy to come near and I will help him'. The guy went to the behind the restaurant and his arm was returned to his place. This is Canada. And many people ask 'is that legally? Are doctors doing this legally?' Of course if they are helping people. If they are preventing death, they are preventing something to go wrong, they are totally on the legal side. There is nothing illegal about that. It is like a harm reduction. When the society realise that there were hundreds, thousands of people dying on the street. They were not doing anything but suddenly harm reduction - The activists of harm reduction came strongly and said we need to save lives. Drug users are first nations. Drug abusers are poor. Drug users are part of the community and then harm reduction came as an important model and the society realised that there was a problem and they needed to face that problem. What I'm seeing right now is that we have a problem. We need to face that problem as a society.

PC: Byron Cruz thank you very much appreciate your time. Thank you very much. [Applause]

BYRON CRUZ: [Indistinct language]

PC: Byron Cruz is an outreach worker with Sanctuary help here in Vancouver. By the way I want to mention we contacted B.C.'s Ministry of Labor about this issue. It told us 'all workers in this province are entitled to the same protections regardless of their immigration status'. But they did acknowledge that temporary workers are vulnerable to abuse and intimidation in the workplace. The ministry also says it plans to create a provincial temporary foreign worker registry that will help protect vulnerable workers from exploitation and enable them to track the use of the program. [Music]

PC: All right. We're just about to get to the Q and A with our audience in Vancouver but I want to let you know that we followed up on Byron Cruz's concerns about some hospitals in Vancouver Coastal Health are making calls to Canadian border officials. Here is part of what they said about their policy: "Vancouver Coastal Health that is focused on providing health care for those in need. And we are not involved in immigration matters. VCH policy regarding privacy and confidentiality of patient information limits the circumstances under which we release client information to law enforcement. Information can only be shared if the client has authorized us to do so or if there is an active police investigation or court warrant'. And with that, back to the town hall in Vancouver and our first question from the audience that kicked off our Q and A.

JADEN RAYLESS: Hi my name is Jaden Rayless. I have been a mental health patient and I have been fortunate enough to have the support of my family and be able to access the system. However in my group therapy I did observe certain races especially Aboriginal people that did not have the exact access to the support. So for example when this individual was having a crisis the only number he could reach out was 911 because ambulances and mental health services, psychologists and all of this is not an essential service. And the psychiatrist system in Vancouver, it's really amazing and we're fortunate to have that. However again not everyone is going to have the access to this systems. So what happens with those people who are like different races, who are in the lower brackets of society, who cannot afford this?

PC: Tanya Dick, why don't we start with you?

TANYA DICK: Good question. I just think about the practice at home when we have people - we fall under the federal program for health services for health benefits that don't cover psychologists. Some psychiatrist work but the act like you said the access isn't the same that disparity is there through policy and legislation and budgets. So those things can very easily be changed. I think in all fairness when it comes to mental health that work needs to be done across the board that yes, there is a disparity for indigenous people and vulnerable populations but in particular indigenous people, but I think the general population we have to fear the mental health system overall. Those gaps are huge and a lot of societies filing through them.

PC: Okay. I want to take a question from Facebook live. This comes from Jocelyn Laymen on Facebook and her question is to Diane Lingren and Tanya Dick. Here's Jocelyn's question: What would you like a young person considering nursing as a career to know about the calls to action and reconciliation? Diane.

DIANE LINGREN: I would like to acknowledge the territory that they're on to do their best to educate themselves on whether that's through reaching out to someone like Tanya or I. I just I just ask for allyship.

TANYA DICK: I think the work that the truth and reconciliation commission did with their final report was an amazing framework. It's laid out for all of Canada to follow. I've always felt it very important for individuals in this country to define reconciliation for themselves as individuals and as professionals. And what does that mean in their day to day life whether it's personal or professional and utilizing those frameworks to move throughout their practice. It's a role model, what's in there because it's hard for the indigenous people to do ads for Canadians to do. It's for all of us.

PC: Do you have a question? We have time for one or two more and if you could just tell us your name and then ask your question or tell us your story.

JEFF IBONTE: Sure my name was Jeff Ibonte and I am a mental health commissioner and have been so in Vancouver for the last 17 years. Am here as a father to my son and I'm very proud to have him here and witness your bravery. My question to you is: I constantly need to be an advocate because I am a father and a husband. And I get tired and when I get tired I find my allies. I talk to my wonderful wife and my friends and so forth. How do you keep the fire going in this fight that concerns all of us?

TANYA DICK: I actually lately have really found a lot of my inspiration and wind in my sails coming from the younger youth nursing students. I say they mouldable but its more their keenness, they're inspiring, they see the change that needs to happen and they're rolling up their sleeves and asking and trying to figure out ways to make that happen.

PC: Sally you want to add something?

SALLY LIN: So I'm not a nurse or a practitioner but I've been exploring poetry as a way of self-care and self-mental care because as I have shared it's difficult for me to find the type of mental care that I'm looking for. And so I find the arts really inspiring whether it's music or movies or poetry. And so really simple things just trying to find joy in my life as I'm learning more about how to support different groups, migrant workers, indigenous people, through you know simple things like going to see Black Panther. I am going to go see it again because it was great. It made me feel really hopeful, listening to music [unintelligible] we have so many indigenous musicians who are just doing so well. And so when I feel down after reading the news you know Colten Bouchie that was really a tough weekend. I needed to balance that out a little bit in my own life. So I listen to [unintelligible] who has really uplifting music and things like that. You know it's we have to build that into our into our lives if we want to make this sustainable as individual advocates.

PC: We have a question here in the front row. What's your name?

CATHY BROWN: Hi my name is Cathy Brown I'm a senior. I'm blind and I'm a pretty active disability activist. And I applaud all of you for your advocacy because in our community we face a lot of skewed perception's and ignorance and fear and hostility. And I wonder within your new release and also within the health care system if you find the physical disabilities, especially invisible ones that people don't understand, add another layer of challenge to how you deal with the healthcare system? Thank you.

PC: Who wants take this one? You're on the front line, Diane? Diane Lingren go ahead.

DIANE LINGREN: Absolutely they definitely add another layer. You get labelled as a complex patient whatever that word means. As soon as you have more than you know two or three things collaboratively wrong. I'm a complex patient myself and it's not easy and I have to go to the doctor every two weeks and it's so time consuming and it's draining and it takes away from other things that I want to do. Absolutely adds other layers and impedes access in many ways too because they say 'Oh, look it's her again. Frequent flyer'. [Laughter]

PC: We have to have a one or two more questions in the room here.

OMAR: Hi my name is Omar. My questions for a final speaker. We heard the recording of a woman who was pregnant and having trouble accessing healthcare. I think you mentioned it as well in your talk, you spoke about migrant workers coming pregnant and I wanted to ask you to elaborate a little bit more about the challenges of finding maternal care and what happens to the babies once they are born.

BYRON CRUZ: We have many situations you know. A woman who is pregnant who has some issues with medical insurance, if they go to the hospital, at the point of entrance they will let them know that they can access the hospital and the cost of delivering a baby will be 15,000 dollars if it's a normal delivery and it can go to 30,000 if it's a C-section. Unfortunately this is the case by case. It means people to accompany people to advocate one by one in order to access prenatal and delivery services, not to mention termination of pregnancy. It is expensive as well and there is a lot of barriers to access termination of pregnancy. But there are lots of barriers in terms of pregnancy. And then we had the situation if B.C. woman will not assist this specific migrant person they might end the work hospital. Well there are terrible terrible experiences because that's when I was referring to specialist as that make phone calls to patients daily and telling them 'if you don't come and pay in cash, we'll call Immigration Services because we are legally obligated to call immigration services'. There is nothing like the legally obligated. They should not be calling immigration services. That's the illegality of that. Then there are many barriers that migrant woman are having when they get pregnant and we hope to have this discussion provincially and at a federal level as well because it's scary. We don't anyone to die. We don’t want a woman to die. We don't want a baby top die. Then it is case by case if situation doesn't work because so many people have, if they don't know us, if they don't know any advocate how can they get into the service. We are so afraid.

CW: That was Piya Chattopadhyay hosting The Current's Facing Race town hall from Vancouver. We first aired that special in March. To read more about or listen to the Facing Race town halls from Vancouver, Halifax, and Montreal visit our website at cbc.ca/thecurrent. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio 1 for q. Author Tomi Adeyemi is on the show to talk about her debut novel Children of Blood and Bone; about a young girl from a West African kingdom fighting to restore magic to her people. And remember you can always take The Current with you to go on the CBC Radio app. It's free from the App Store or Google Play. Finally, after hearing highlights from our Facing Race special in Vancouver, let's end the show off with some music from Christie Lee Charles. She was recently named Vancouver's Poet Laureate and becomes the first Indigenous person to hold that post. She first made headlines back in 2011 for rapping in her traditional language Halkomelem. Here she is with her song Experience. I'm Connie Walker. Thanks for listening to the summer edition of The Current.

[Music: Miss Christie Lee – “Experience”]

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Wednesday August 29, 2018 Full Episode Transcript

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