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The Current Transcript for June 20, 2018

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

When Daesh came, there was fire in the world. There's fire in the world when they came. they came and it was sudden war.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: There was nowhere to hide and no one to help. When ISIS fighters swooped into Yazidi communities they killed many of the men, forced the boys to train to fight and drag the wives, mothers and sisters into an unimaginable hell, treating them as property to buy, to sell and abuse at will as often as they chose. Some of those women and girls have managed to escape and many of them are here in Canada beginning the long process of trying to heal and move forward. But even one of those who's now dedicating her time and professional skills to help them admits she's never seen such levels of pain.

SOUNDCLIP

I think there was nothing in my 40 years of experience that prepared me for this kind of work. It was a trauma beyond anything I had seen.

AMT: Today, World Refugee Day, we will introduce you to three Yazidi refugees whose own stories of terror are being met by the supportive embrace of Canadians determined to help them find a new and kinder normal. You will hear their stories in our first half hour. And in our second half hour you'll meet two people who are offering their time and their hearts to help, but would like the Canadian government to offer more of its clout and commitment. And in our third half hour:

SOUNDCLIP

Eliminating the cap and trade carbon tax is the right thing to do. All it does is hurt small businesses and hurt families.

AMT: It was a central campaign promise that Doug Ford says will be the priority when he takes over the office of premier of Ontario later this month. The scrapping of Ontario's cap and trade system against greenhouse gas emissions is expected to have a domino effect. We're asking Who and Whats will be toppled. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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'I know the Yazidis are going through hell': ISIS survivors in Canada plead for help for family left behind

SOUNDCLIP

Our government to resettle approximately 1200 highly vulnerable survivors of Daesh and their family members in Canada, particularly focusing on vulnerable Yazidi women and children, over the course of 2017.

AMT: Well that is Immigration Minister Ahmed Hussen pledging to welcome 1200 Yazidi refugees into Canada. The Yazidi who live mostly in northern Iraq have been the victims of what the international community calls a genocide. In the heat of August of 2014 ISIS, or Daesh as the military group has called in Arabic, drove into the religious minorities villages. Its stated goal was to wipe out a people they refer to as kuffar a derogatory term for unbelievers or non-Muslims. Within days thousands of men were executed. For many Yazidi women their fate was to be sold into sexual slavery and the persecution continues today. As they work to help the Yazidi refugees who have arrived in Canada psychologists say they have been so traumatized that even the counsellors working with them are in need of counselling. The Current’s Pacinthe Mattar brings us their story in her documentary So They Can Rest a Little, and a warning much of what you will hear will be troubling.

SOUNDCLIP

PACINTHE MATTAR: On a Friday afternoon at a home in a north Toronto suburb there's a big lunch underway; fried chicken, stewed potatoes and rice sit in steaming hot pot, the lids uncovered, on a blanket on the living room floor. Around it are about a dozen people. There is an elderly couple, some women and children and they're all seated cross-legged guzzling cold glasses of coke with their meal. They're all Yazidi, that's an ancient religion that borrows elements from many faiths. The refugees gather here at this house every week trying to make a new home. Hadiya is here with her two sisters and she's standing at the stove. On the back of one of her hands in blue black ink, scrawled in misshapen Capitol English letters is a name: Khudher, that was her husband. Daesh shot him dead in front of her and her daughter. She carved his name onto her skin using only a sewing needle and ink. Her sister Adiba translates for me as I ask her about it. That summer of 2014 everything changed not only for and Adiba but for all the Yazidis. Hadiya became a servant to dash. Adiba was forced into sexual slavery. She holds up six fingers, her eyes downcast to explain how many times she was bought and sold. Last fall she had a kind of seizure. She was taken to a nearby hospital and she shows me a video of the incident.

[Sound: Adiba breathing heavily and wailing in pain]

PM: I can see her biding on a hospital bed. Her arms and legs are tied to the railings and the way she is restrained is a terrifying trip back in time for her. It reminds her of what Darsh did to her. Adiba is now getting psychological help to try to deal with what she endured. But her pain and the Yazidis pain is far from over because some of their loved ones are still missing in Iraq. They are held by Daesh perhaps dead. Other families are still languishing in rough refugee camps. Their sister in law calls from her refugee camp and Adiba and Hadiya rush to huddle around the cellphone. She appears, pixellated but smiling, in the fluorescent light of her tent and she's holding their baby nephew who's grinning back at them.

[Indistinct chatter, cooing, laughter]

PM: Such an innocent life they hoped to protect him from the horrors everyone in this room has known. These are three of their stories and a warning, the details are disturbing.

[Music starts]

ADIBA: [Arabic speech] Life was good. We were comfortable with brothers, sisters, parents. We worked on the farms. Grandfather grew olive trees at his house. My name is Adiba I am a Yazidi woman living in Toronto. When Daesh came there was fire in the world. There was fire in the water when they came. They came and it was sudden war. They didn't spare anyone from young to old. The men were killed and the children and the women were taken. It happened in front of me and in front of the world. This is real. This isn't a movie.

BASEMA: My name is Basema and I'm a Yazidi living in Toronto in Richmond Hill. Daesh took all of our village, the village of Kojo; women, men, children. They were all taken to the local school at noon.

HADAL: I was in our village in Kojo and they came and attacked us. I am 15 years old now. I'm in Toronto in Richmond Hill. I was young but I remember they took us to the Kurdish school. They separated the men and the women and the children they kept the men in the basement of the school and the women and children stayed upstairs. Then they took the men in cars. We don't know where but somewhere in the village. Then we heard guns and those of us who spoke Arabic we asked them what is the sound of the gunfire? What's that shooting? They said we're killing dogs.

BASEMA: They killed the men of Kojo and put them into mass graves. Every Yazidi village has a mass grave. Where we not created like other human beings? Why are we all victims? We didn't know what was happening but we knew they were killing the men and taking the women. Then they said you have to be Muslim. All Yazidis must convert. We said impossible. We don't accept. They beat us women, raped us, tortured us. We said no matter what you do to us we won't change our religion. They forced us to pray. We were repeatedly raped, sometimes eight, nine year old girls. What human can accept this? Where is the humanity? Where is the justice? Why aren't people speaking out about this? What do you mean a 9 year old girl is being raped? It's been four years the Yazidis have gone through this. Why is humanity not listening? There was no life. Every day we were raped. We were sold. We went hungry. There was no food. I was separated from my son Hadal. We were three hours away. He was in Hama in Syria getting trained by the Daesh at the camps.

HADAL: My family hid me for as long as they could but eventually Daesh took me to a military camp. They would beat us to learn Quran. They asked us to be suicide bombers. I was 11 at the time. They trained us to use weapons. They made us watch videos on how to mount attacks, how to hide if planes were flying overhead. We would carry guns and fire them. There were over 30 of us Yazidi boys. There were also the sons of Daesh with us. They would yell at us, beat us. They would torture us at that camp. I didn't understand what was going on. I was just scared. Everyone was screaming and crying. I don't know. I was terrified.

BASEMA: A Daesh Sheikh could walk in and buy 10 girls at once. They'd say “Yallah, you, you and you,” like cattle. Yazidi women would try to turn the men off in any way. I didn't bathe for two months, two months. I wanted to smell terrible. I said Let me smell as bad as I can so they don't rape me. Not just me. All of us women and girls refuse to bathe. They beat us in the end with a hose and forced us “Yallah, to the bath,” one by one by force.

ADIBA: If you are disobedient, they sold the girls. Buying and selling. In Mosul they took photos of us and they would put it up on a wall near the courthouse and the men would go choose based on the pictures. It was a market place for girls, young girls. We weren't human. It's hard to talk about but we have to so we get our justice. The women were worse than the Daesh men. The men raped us and when they left the women would beat, torture, deprive us of food and water. If you wanted to drink you drank from the toilet, food was in the garbage. That's how we eat. I just hoped for gods to end my life.

HADAL: We weren't allowed to speak Kurdish so we didn't talk much. When we were alone in the room together we would just cry. They'd come in and see us and ask why we were crying. We'd say we want our parents. They'd say "What do you need them for?"

BASEMA: Daesh were terrible. Let the world hear it. They aren't human. They were training my son to be a suicide bomber. Hadal told me they made him wear a suicide belt to train him to be a bomber. He was 10. He would have been killed and then where would I be?

HADAL: I was terrified when they told me to wear a suicide belt. I cried and said “Where are my parents, my family?" They said "Just Go blow yourself up. We don't know anything." Two boys went through with it. They made us watch a video of it. The boys are speaking Kurdish. They told me that in two three months I'll be doing the same. I was thinking of my mother my sister. I understood that they were selling my mother. If I cry, they say, don't cry soon you'll come to battle with us and you'll blow yourself up.

ADIBA: Some people help, some people don't help. If dash found someone that was helping Yazidis they'd be killed too. So it was done secretly. In Mosul, someone helped me then I got out. The family helped.

BASEMA: We escaped one night when they were sleeping. They had been up all night waiting for a fajar or dawn prayers. When they went to sleep we left and they escaped. I wore all black, covering my whole body and face like Dasch women. I said even if I get caught, getting killed is better than this. I found the home belonging to a Muslim man in Raqqa and asked for help. He asked for money to take me back to my family and if I didn't get it he'd tell Daesh that I escaped and where I was. I begged and begged. I called Baba, my father, from his phone and as soon as I heard his voice I cried. I said "Are you baba?" And he said "Yes who are you?" I said "It's Basema." And Baba cried and said "Don't lie. Are you really Basema?" I said "Yes. I'm out but this man now wants money to set me free." All the Yazidis came together to come up with the money and then I was free.

ADIBA: We were scared when we first landed in Canada. We went to a hotel. Two days we were in that hotel. You don't understand how terrified we were. We weren't comfortable. We didn't know the language. No one came and asked us where we were coming from. My sister said let's go back to Iraq. I said let's stay here until someone comes for us. In Iraq, the ones who did our interviews to come to Canada said when we go to Canada just say "Don't speak English" and they will help you. So I did that at the hotel. Someone from the settlement agency, COSTI, came and helped us starting that day.

HADAL: I'm happy in Canada but everyone in Iraq still in the camps. There is rain. There's no money to buy food. They're eating wet bread. I go to school here, English. I understand it but it's hard to speak. I have some friends.

BASEMA: Yazidis' lives are destroyed. All of us. Yes there are lots of refugees but they're not like us. We've been under Daesh. Our lives are destroyed.

ADIBA: All of our Yazidi girls need help not just me. All Yazidis have mental health issues after what we've seen. Of course we need that help. There is no shame in that.

BASEMA: Yesterday I got the news from relatives in Iraq who went to a mass grave in our village in Kojo. He said that with his own hands he uncovered Nader, Azeez, Jamal my cousin and my dad's cousin. He said they were still in their clothes. He saw their pants and their shirts. Our relatives, the whole village is our family. My husband, my uncles all killed. Yes I'm in Canada comfortable but if my family's not at rest and comfortable I can't find peace.

HADAL: It's been three years. I don't know anything about my dad. It's hard. I don't know where he is.

BASEMA: I want the government to help with that. I want them to bring our families back. I'm always crying. I don't know anything about my family.

ADIBA: I ask again for the Canadian government to help us. There are still 3000 Yazidi women. We don't know where they are. We ask the whole world, help us get these girls back from this torture, from this fiery hell. I want them to go to the camps directly and help there. And I want them to bring our Yazidi girls here. They need to be here so they can rest a little.

[Music]

AMT: We have been listeningto the documentary So They Can Rest a Little. It was produced by The Current's Pacinthe Mattar. The Current's documentary editor is Joan Webber. Special thanks to Toronto actors Gia Sandhu, Dalal Badr and Sam Al Esai for their voice work. The CBC News is next and then will continue to shine a light on the struggles of the Yazidi people. I'll be joined by two people who have become lifelines of support for Yazidis who have settled in Toronto, offering day to day support and psychological help. Stay with us I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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Government must do more to help Yazidi refugees, says advocate

Guests: Majed Al Shafie, Dr. Mavis Himes

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Them]

AMT: Well the message from the Canadian Senate last night wasn't exactly smoke them if you got them. But an historic vote in the red chamber has paved the way for legal recreational weed, sometime in the near future. CBC's Catherine Cullen joins me to spell out what set to change across the country with that. We'll also talk about Doug Ford's message to Ontario companies with smokestacks. The incoming Ontario premier has vowed to scrap Ontario's cap and trade system. What do businesses in the province really think? We'll hear differing points of view. But first a lifeline for Yazidis making Canada their home.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: If you're just joining us before the news we were listening to The Current producer Pacinthe Mattar's documentary So They Can Rest a Little. We heard the stories of three Yazidi people who now live in a suburb north of Toronto. Adiba, Basema and Hadal and what they survived when ISIS militants, or Daesh, as they're called in Arabic, descended on their villages in northern Iraq in the summer of 2014. If you missed their stories you can find that on our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. One of the people who has been a central part of their lives since their arrival in Canada is Majed Al Shafie.

SOUNDCLIP

[Arabic conversation, laughter]

AMT: He is a regular guest at that Friday lunch seated cross-legged with Adiba and her family around the spread and in that clip he's cracking jokes with and taking his turn to say hi to a relative who's called from a refugee camp. He's become part of the family. Majed Al Shafie is the founder and president of One Freeworld International, a Toronto non-profit organization that advocates for those such as the Yazidi who have been persecuted because of their religion. And he is with me in Toronto. Hello.

MAJED AL SHAFIE: Pleasure being here with you.

AMT: How did you meet Adiba and Basema and Hadal?

MAJED AL SHAFIE: Well Adiba we knew her family from Iraq and we was part of helping her to free from ISIS territory. With regard Basema and Hadal we met them when they arrive here to Canada as a newcomers. And we stood forward to help the family do integrate into Canadian society and to be able to stand up on their feet.

AMT: We heard them say that they really cannot rest or be at peace with their new life in Canada, still thinking about family those missing more still in the hands of ISIS or in refugee camps. What do we know about the rest of Adiba's family, her siblings, her parents?

MAJED AL SHAFIE: We know that part of them is still in the hands of ISIS we are still working very hard and freeing some of them. We were able to free one of their cousins. There is some in Germany, some in Canada, some in the refugee camp. Genocide is not only killing people, and killing a whole race, is also take them apart, their culture, their tradition, the way that they are talking, their language. And that's what we see happening to the Yazidi community today.

AMT: What about Hadal? He says he doesn't know where his father is.

MAJED AL SHAFIE: Hadal's father was killed. He was shot in the head and was taken as a child soldier by ISIS. They tried to brain wash him basically and they try to make him a suicide bomber. This 15 years old little boy today, at the time was 11, he refused. They tortured him. They took off his clothes they put him in a cage in a desert without food and water in order to convince him. He refused. These people, this three names that you mention, is not just a human being. They are heroes, absolute heroes.

AMT: So how many Yazidis are still in the hands of ISIS?

MAJED AL SHAFIE: 3200. Around 3200 girls is still in the hands of ISIS. The total during the beginning of the genocide was seven civilians. Now we are talking about 3200 and many of them being used as a human shield. So they are dying very quickly.

AMT: Religious persecution is an issue that hits close to home for you. What happened in your own life that drew you to this issue?

MAJED AL SHAFIE: Back home in Egypt. I was a lawyer and human right like I was studying law and I converted from Islam to Christianity, not for religious debate but because the freedom of religion. You are free to choose whatever you want to choose. That's when I was arrested by the Egyptian authority. I was tortured severely in the Egyptian prison and I was able to escape my death penalty in Egypt to Israel and, through the intervention of Amnesty International and the United Nations, Canada was chosen to be my new home.

AMT: So what help do you and your organization offer the Yazidis who have come to Toronto?

MAJED AL SHAFIE: Well, in three parts. First of all we help the Yazidis in Iraq through humanitarian aid medical supplies. It's very important that we work with refugees on the ground, taking them out of the routes is really the last resource as we call it. The second part that we do that we help advocating on behalf with the Canadian government. Sadly I don't think that the Canadian government got the picture fully and completely about what's happening with them. And we're trying to advocate on their behalf to increase the number of refugees that are coming from their community. The third part is when they come here we help them because there are many services that was not providing to them, such as psychologists help as well mental health issues. That's when I met with Dr. Mavis, a wonderful doctor. I met with Dalia, different psychologists that came as volunteers. And they was able to help the girls on the ground here.

AMT: So there's a real gap in the kind of help and psychiatric and psychological help they can get when they get here.

MAJED AL SHAFIE: There is. I think that the camp completely that the government when they brought them here they just throw them under the bus in this area. There is many services like finding home for them, how to go to the grocery store, how to take a bus. There is many services was not really provided to them and we had to step forward to fill the gap.

AMT: Well you just mentioned Dr. Mavis Himes. She is with us here. She's been helping the Yazidis in Toronto. She is a psychologist and psychoanalyst in private practice. Welcome.

DR. MAVIS HIMES: Welcome. Thank you.

AMT: How did you get involved with the Yazidi refugees?

DR. MAVIS HIMES: Well actually it was listening to a radio show on CBC and the morning. I heard this voice talking about this desperate situation. And all I remember was One Freeworld International. I wrote down the name. And I had been wanting to get involved with Syrian refugee work at that time. So it seemed the perfect opportunity. I immediately called and set up an appointment with Majed.

AMT: So when we hear about the hardships they have described living through the rapes, the beatings, the 11 year old made to wear a suicide belt, to carry guns, where do you even begin when it comes to psychological and psychiatric support?

DR. MAVIS HIMES: I think there was nothing in my 40 years of experience that prepared me for this kind of work. It was a trauma beyond anything I had seen. And the women are so closed and defensive and private and insular in their community and very reluctant to open up. I immediately saw the relationship they had with Majed, the kind of warmth and closeness. But for me as an outsider who doesn't speak the language it has been a journey of establishing relationship as a first step.

AMT: You say you haven't seen anything like this in your decades of work. What was your work in the past? What is your area of...?

DR. MAVIS HIMES: I'm a generalist. I began as a child psychologist and then worked as a adult psychologist and I have a particular expertise in the work of cancer and bereavement. So I've done a tremendous amount of work with pain and loss, suffering and bereavement but it certainly I do call on those that capacity to listen and sit with pain. But there are many many roadblocks in terms of working with this population.

AMT: Well tell me a little bit more about those roadblocks.

DR. MAVIS HIMES: Well first of all this is a population who is not particularly literate. Most of the women are illiterate. And so some of the expressive arts are some of the other ways that I might access working with this population have not been open. I have brought in coloring books. I have tried to introduce some movement or some breathing but it's very slow going. They are also not a population who are as psychologically attuned as we are. So if you ask "Do you think that this pain may be related to something you experienced?" It's hard for them to make those connections. I mean they see very much, very concretely, body mind. They don't necessarily connect the two. And it's been a learning process for them.

AMT: And you're doing all this through translation.

DR. MAVIS HIMES: Yes. And not only single translation for some of them it's English Arabic for others it's English-Arabic, Arabic-Kurmanji, their language and so it's double translation and that's another huge stumbling block working with them.

AMT: Not only for the understanding but also for the time delay.

DR. MAVIS HIMES: That's right. So often I will get a one word answer. Now if I look at when I met them to now I would see there is an opening and not necessarily the one word answers any more.

AMT: You talk about your work with bereavement before this, and loss. What about the issue of torture? Like how do you go about trying to help someone- like do you see PTSD? What do you see?

DR. MAVIS HIMES: I happen to work in a way that I take my cues from the person I'm talking to. And so initially when I met most of the women I did get a story of, it was almost like a photographic memory of what had happened to them. "I lived here. I was taken here. I was under the home of this particular individual named such and such with his wife." And it was this very detailed description, nothing of torture, nothing of rape, nothing. So for me it's a question of waiting for the right moment. Some of the physical pains are a way of entrée but they are not- They're very private about the actual rape and torture experiences. It comes up but it's something that I approach very slowly. I haven't known them long enough I'd say to enter that territory.

AMT: And we're talking about a kind of violence that they are going to be blamed for it.

DR. MAVIS HIMES: And they are and that's another reason why there is such a veil of silence over speaking because, until they develop trust, there's tremendous shame. It's hard for us to conceive that the men would be rejecting of these women who were at the mercy of ISIS. And yet that is the case. But I want to make one other point and it's what Majed said and it's what your documentary is about. The problem is not only individual trauma. It's also collective trauma. And as long as there are people- the biggest stumbling block that I hear, and I hear it week in week out, "how can we rest?" It's not only survivor guilt, that I've survived and they haven't, but I know for example one woman whose last contact with her 15 year old daughter was seeing them torture her daughter as she separated. Her daughter is still under the hands of ISIS. She cannot rest. She cannot rest knowing what she's been through and what her daughter is probably still going through. So that's a huge you know psychological barrier and we try and work- I mean one of the things I'm thinking of is trying to get them involved in writing letters or advocacy, whether they go to the Canadian government or not, but at least it's an act. Something they can master, take control of.

AMT: I understand you've tried to arrange some fun outings with the women and girls but that's a challenge too.

DR. MAVIS HIMES: Well Majed and I have been talking about that instead of meeting at the One Freeworld offices downtown, we thought would be fun to do something else. And one of the things that came up was doing nails and mani-pedis but the response to that was "I don't want to make myself beautiful because that reminds me of what happened over there". It was I kind of put down in terms of not wanting to pursue this now. I think that may change. And I think we may be able to go back to that. But the initial response was 'No'.

AMT: That's part of the healing again I guess. As we heard in the documentary, women who didn't wash for weeks or months because they wanted to make themselves unattractive. Yes. Is there a difference between how the adults and how the children are coping?

DR. MAVIS HIMES: Most of my work has been not with the children. But I would say that there is much more hope for the children because they're the future. They will become integrated. They will learn the language easier. They will learn literacy skills. They will become acculturated into Canadian society and they don't carry the same baggage. And what I hear from the parents, who I do work with is, how happy the kids seem to be. Now where that falls apart and we can't ignore it is the impact of the parents crying and being sad. And then you have children saying you know "Mommy how come you're crying?" or you know wanting to make them feel better, or events like Mother's Day, Father's Day which is part of Canadian culture. Those certain moments are particularly difficult for the children but I think there's much more hope I would say for them than for the adults.

AMT: And have you seen improvements in the way that you're interacting with the women over the last few months?

DR. MAVIS HIMES: I would say certainly from when I met them and these are baby steps. So you know when I say improvement I see for example more talking than I used to. I see more smiling more laughing. I see some sharing of photographs which to me is opening and sharing their life before ISIS as well as some of the images that they look at on their iPhones which are also of destruction. So both, both joy of weddings and celebrations in their old life, and then the destruction. But for me it's an opening into letting me into their world. And I see also, with the help I think of some medical intervention like pills sleeping pills for example, there is some relief of some of the physical symptoms which has also been a huge problem. I think.

AMT: I would imagine nightmares.

DR. MAVIS HIMES: As well, yes I'm thinking of headaches backaches or different body aches that come from both physical torture or experience there, as well as the nightmares and then more classical PTSD symptoms.

AMT: I want to bring Majed back into this conversation. What are you doing with your organization for Yazidis outside of Canada?

MAJED AL SHAFIE: Well right now our main goal is to rescue this 3200 girls still remain in the hand of ISIS. I saw as young as 9 years old been raped 20 times a day. So what we saw in the last four years I don't think that I ever saw it in any place else in the world. I still have nightmares about just what I saw and what I hear from the victims alone. So our is to rescue that 3200 girls still in the hands of ISIS to the best of our ability.

AMT: Now Basema and Adiba talked about being brought back from their captors. Is that what you're trying to do? You're trying to buy...

MAJED AL SHAFIE: Through the Kurdish tribes that in Iraq and Syria, we are able to communicate with them to be able to rescue some of these girls. So it is a tribal based society. So if you get the right person in the right tribe they will be able to help you to rescue the Yazidi girls to the best of their ability.

AMT: But you have to pay money to do that.

MAJED AL SHAFIE: Sometime materials and instead of money. We have very strict rule of not end funds in the hand of terrorist organization. So sometimes we exchange goods.

AMT: And you exchange what kind of goods?

MAJED AL SHAFIE: Some of the stuff like alcohol for example. Believe it or not this is the forbidden fruit that many of them will take alcohol for example. So sometime we change some of this materials.

AMT: How much money have you had to collect to do that?

MAJED AL SHAFIE: Quite honestly it has almost bankrupted our organization. So we had more than - to the best of our knowledge or to the best of my account so far - we had to collect more than 3 million and in order to rescue more than 600 Yazidi girls.

AMT: And where did that money come from?

MAJED AL SHAFIE: Quite honestly mostly remortgaged my home bank, my saving, not just me, me and my team. Also big part was donation from the public, from supporters that the know us, memberships, that they know us for years and years. I think through all of this ordeal, the only thing that will always stay with me is the reaction of the Canadian people, not the Canadian government but the Canadian people. How the Canadian people stepped in and they help in every way possible from the bus driver to that guy in the supermarket to people that they would send funds to help these girls.

AMT: So do you negotiate with Kurdish tribes or ISIS?

MAJED AL SHAFIE: No we negotiate with Kurdish tribes.

AMT: And they negotiate with ISIS.

MAJED AL SHAFIE: That's correct. That's correct.

AMT: You know in Canada we've had Canadian citizens who have been taken and the government will not pay ransom, and they tell the families that if you do you could be accused of aiding and abetting a terrorist organization.

MAJED AL SHAFIE: Listen if the government want to arrest me please do. It's very easy to find me. Go to my Web site.

AMT: Do you have any concerns at all that you're giving ISIS exactly what they want? You're giving them money.

MAJED AL SHAFIE: I don't have this concern. My focus is more about this girls. If this is my daughter or my mother or my sister or my wife, I will do whatever it will take to release this girl and to help them.

AMT: What would you rather see done? What would you like to see governments doing about this?

MAJED AL SHAFIE: I would like the Canadian government to open the door so these girls cannot stay in their home anymore. They cannot stay in Iraq anymore. They are vulnerable minorities. I would like to see the government focusing more on the vulnerable minorities. There is a stigma on these girls even after we rescued them. They cannot stay in Iraq. They cannot stay in the refugee camp. They've been treated by their family- some of them being treated by their family on honor killing situation. You know situation some of them been rejected by the society treated as, not as a victim but as as dirt. These girls deserve a new life. Their families deserve a new life. And I think that our environment here in Canada, I think our understanding of mental health issues will give them the best atmosphere ever to come here and to be something. Now the Canadian government just brought twelve hundred of them. Now I'm very thankful for that. But I believe that the number can be increased and a thing and I believe that the Canadian people who would like to do more for this girls.

AMT: Do all the Yazidis want to come to Canada? Or are there some who would prefer to remain?

MAJED AL SHAFIE: I can tell you that a lot of them, especially that we're talking about the girls, the victims of ISIS. We're not talking about you know the community at large. We're talking about the victims that was being sex slaved by ISIS.

AMT: They need to get out.

MAJED AL SHAFIE: They need to get out. If the United States opened their doors today, which I really doubt, or Germany or Canada or Australia they will go there. They just need to get out.

AMT: And be helped.

MAJED AL SHAFIE: That's great.

AMT: But in the sense that you talk about not only the killings and the kidnappings and the abuse but the ripping apart of the culture. There is some desire on the part of this wider community to rebuild that community is there not?

MAJED AL SHAFIE: Absolutely. Any community would like to remain in their roots, any community not just the Yazidis.

AMT: But it is not possible right now, is it?

MAJED AL SHAFIE: But right now what we need to focus on is saving lives, is to get them new beginning. And we're hoping that at some point they will be able to rebuild in Canada like many of the communities that came through and to build their own culture, their own community in Canada and to be able to grow up from here.

AMT: So of the people you have met and the people that we've just met through this documentary as well, what is your hope for them?

MAJED AL SHAFIE: My hope that I can attend their wedding, that I can attend the graduation party from the university. My hope is to see them smiling laughing again, healed. That is always will be the bad memories, will be there. If you ask any holocaust survivor, if you ask any survivor of any genocide they still remember but they will be able to coexist. My hope that they would be to coexist, not just with the pain, but to use this pain to help others. When I came here to Canada I was broken pieces, a million pieces the Canadian people healed me. The love that I saw, the acceptance that I saw healed me. And instead of sinking and drowning in my pain I choose to help others that was in the same situation or even worse. And I'm hoping to see this. I hope to see refugees helping refugees, victim helping victims. So we reject the label of being victim and being a victor. That is my hope.

AMT: Well they are survivors. So you're looking for them to get some help so they can- You talk about weddings and graduation, all the normal things that we take for granted.

MAJED AL SHAFIE: Absolutely.

AMT: Thank you for your work. Thanks for coming in both of you.

MAJED AL SHAFIE: Thank you.

DR. MAVIS HIMES: Thank you.

AMT: Majed Al Shafie is the founder and president of One Freeworld International, a non-profit organization that advocates for people who've been persecuted for their religion. Mavis Himes is a psychologist and psychoanalyst in private practice. They were both with me in our Toronto studio. We did request a comment from Immigration Refugees and Citizenship Canada which sent us a statement and it acknowledges the "unimaginable trauma these specific refugees have endured and what it calls the long journeys they have, resettling in Canada". It also states that the government has "Co-provided a new home to over 1300 women and their families who endured the brutality of Daesh, 85 percent of whom are Yazidi" it says Canada has spent more than one billion dollars on resettlement services overall. And with regard to mental health support it says "Our government is proud to have fully restored the refugee healthcare program which was cut by the previous conservative government". That's a program which the government notes includes mental health services that survivors of ISIS can use. Let us know what you think. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook. Go to our Web site cbc.ca/thecurrent. And stay with us. We're talking about legal weed one step closer to reality in Canada while cap and trade seems on its way out the door in Ontario. This is The Current.

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The Senate passed the pot bill. What happens now?

Guest: Catherine Cullen

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and this is The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

Yes scored 52, No score 29, abstentions 2.

Accordingly, the motion is adopted.

[Applause]

AMT: Well years of impassioned debate came down to that rather quiet moment last night in the Senate, when members of the chamber for sober second thought remove the final hurdle to legal weed in Canada. When the law does finally receive Royal Assent and take effect it will be legal for Canadians to consume marijuana for recreational purposes. Catherine Cullen has been following this story closely. She's a senior reporter on Parliament Hill for CBC News and she is of course in Ottawa. Hi Catherine.

CATHERINE CULLEN: Hello.

AMT: How significant was it?

CATHERINE CULLEN: It is a big moment. You know one of the senators, Tony Dean who actually sponsored the bill, came out after the vote and he said this is a historic moment. And if you look at the bigger context here, that is certainly true this is going to be an end to 90 plus years of prohibition of recreational marijuana. And on a global scale, Canada is the first industrialized nation in the world to go ahead with the legalization of recreational marijuana. The only other country doing this on a national scale, legalizing, is Uruguay. They have a very different economy a very different setup from Canada. I've been covering this file for a couple of years now Anna Maria and I can tell you it's true that there are people in many other countries around the world who are watching very carefully to see how this goes.

AMT: Well it's true because in the U.S. it's individual states but no other major Western country has gone this far.

CATHERINE CULLEN: That's true and the implications are really very different when you do it on a state by state basis as opposed to a national basis.

AMT: So everyone thinks July 1st is the date. It is not, is it?

CATHERINE CULLEN: It's funny how that happened. In fact no government official ever actually got in front of a microphone and said that July 1st would be the date. There were some reports including by CBC News that that's what they were eyeing. But as soon as that date came out in public people, including Bill Blair who's been the government's point man on pot he's the former chief of police in Toronto, said: "Canada Day, I'm not a big fan of that idea. I don't like the optics, amongst other things, of celebrating Canada perhaps by lighting up. That wasn't necessarily a very good message to send".

AMT: Other people would love those optics but let’s keep going.

CATHERINE CULLEN: Not necessarily the government. So the official announcement was only ever sometime in July, that is clearly being delayed by the time it's taking to get all the work done.

AMT: Well and that's also got to do with the provinces does it not?

CATHERINE CULLEN: The government came out a few months ago and said that the provinces have asked for some time after Royal Assent. So that's when the Governor General as you know signs off on a piece of legislation we're expecting that in the next few days perhaps with the 45 the Cannabis Act now that it's through the Senate. They need anywhere between eight to 12 weeks, government officials have said, to do things like to actually legally move recreational cannabis to the storefronts in which it will be sold. There are still a lot of work to do despite the fact that this has been a very lengthy process, everything from training public education campaigns and just the physical work of training up staff, opening stores. They need a bit more time. What we do not know is precisely how much time. Ultimately the Cannabis Act will come into force on a date set by the government, essentially set by the prime minister. We expect to hear in the next few days precisely when that date might be but look for some time in August or perhaps September.

AMT: And so take us through a little bit of this because it's not everything right? It's not edibles right now.

CATHERINE CULLEN: That's right. That was one thing that that is in the Cannabis Act is that they've agreed to allow edibles within a year. So right now off the bat when legalization kicks in Canadians will be able to, in most provinces - and I should say the situation really does change from province to province - But if you look at the federal legislation and what they have in mind, up to four plants per household that can be grown just for your personal use, sharing with your friends but not for sale. You can go out and purchase marijuana at a store. Now depending on where you live that's going to be either a private store or something that's government run. Here in Ontario for instance there will be the Ontario Cannabis Society right sort of like the LCBO the Liquor Commission but separate specifically for cannabis. And you can buy up to 30 grams per person at a time, that's how much you can have in public. But there are very specific restrictions that matter very much from province to province about where you can grow it. In Ontario for instance you can't consume it in public. And if you do the fines are supposed to be pretty severe. The first time you get caught consuming cannabis in public. A fine of up to 1000 dollars, subsequent fines 5000 dollars. So this is certainly not a free for all.

AMT: And so I guess you know we have restrictions on smoking tobacco, so some of that-.

CATHERINE CULLEN: Consuming alcohol.

AMT: Exactly. And go back to the growing of plants because the feds have one rules but the provinces want to weigh in on this do they?

CATHERINE CULLEN: Well all of the provinces are allowed to put their own restrictions around how this works. If you look at like New Brunswick for instance you have to keep your cannabis under lock and key. Now Manitoba, Quebec, Nunavut have all said "we don't want people growing marijuana in their homes at all". They're going to be able to go ahead with those restrictions. So whenever legalization kicks in if you live in those provinces you are supposed to follow those rules. But the federal government doesn't particularly like that plan. They believe people should be able to grow marijuana at home because they believe that that is going to suppress the illicit market, and in fact the government representative facilitator in the Senate the other day said they also think frankly adult Canadians should have the right to do that. They should be able to do it the same way that you can make beer or wine or something like that.

AMT: What was the government trying to do it with this legislation?

CATHERINE CULLEN: The real goal they say and they have said it over and over and over Anna Maria is they think that too many young Canadians are using marijuana - and they point to one particular study that suggests Canada has the highest rate of use amongst young people in the world. So they say if we legalize it and we regulate it it will be easier to keep it away from them the same way that it's they say easier for a young person to get a joint right now than perhaps cigarettes. And they also say they want to shut down the illicit market. This is by all accounts a multibillion dollar market. Every year they want to deprive organized crime of profits.

AMT: Okay and what happens to those people who already have charges of simple possession on their record?

CATHERINE CULLEN: That has been a big question throughout this. The government has said that it is looking at the possibility of offering some sort of forgiveness to people and we don't know specifically what charges it will be, but simple possession is the one that comes up again and again. But I think they're trying to be very careful about not sending mixed messages here. Even if you look at the situation right now, headlines today saying "Hey legalization, one step closer" some people may think that it's kicking in today when that's clearly not the case. So they don't want to start talking I think too much about amnesty or forgiveness when in fact it is still illegal at this moment to consume recreational marijuana cannabis in Canada. So that discussion I think we're going to hear a lot more about after legalization kicks in.

AMT: You said that very clearly just now, Catherine. Okay.

CATHERINE CULLEN: [Laughs].

AMT: Thank you very much Catherine Cullen.

CATHERINE CULLEN: You're very welcome.

AMT: Catherine Collins senior reporter on Parliament Hill for CBC News. She joined us from Ottawa.

[Music]

AMT: This is The Current on CBC Radio One.

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Doug Ford's vow to fight federal carbon tax part of concerted effort, prof says

Guests: Rory Ring, Lori Williams, Tom Rand

SOUNDCLIP

After 15 years of being gouged at the pumps, gouged by high taxes and cap and trade the people of Ontario want relief. And during the election I promised we would take immediate action to lower gas prices by scrapping the carbon tax and ending cap and trade. Today I want to confirm that in Ontario the carbon taxes days are numbered. In fact upon the swearing in of my new cabinet at the top of our agenda, the very first item will be to pass in order to cancel the liberal cap and trade carbon tax.

AMT: That is Ontario's premier to be Doug Ford sounding the death knell for cap and trade in the province. Ontario has had its program in place since the first of January of 2017 and it had partnered with Quebec and California creating the world's second largest carbon market. Putting a price on carbon as an attempt to give both businesses and consumers an incentive to cut greenhouse gas emissions. Effectively the less you pollute the less you pay. But the cap and trade program costs Ontario consumers four point three cents per liter of gas at the pump. Reining in fuel costs was a major campaign theme for Mr. Ford. The system also caps or limits the amount of greenhouse gas companies can emit and if they surpass those caps they need to buy carbon credits or carbon allowances, either at auction or from other companies that have not used their full limits. In six auctions Ontario's government has sold 2.8 billion dollars’ worth of credits to Ontario companies, what some would call permits to pollute. After Mr. Ford's announcement California and Quebec closed the market to Ontario to protect against dumping those allowances. It's effectively rendered those Ontario allowances worthless, raising the specter of lawsuits if Queens Park does not buy them back. But what do Ontario businesses really think of Mr. Ford's move to scrap cap and trade now that it is coming true, Rory Ring is CEO of the Chamber of Commerce in Saulte Ste Marie Ontario. He is happy with Mr. Ford's direction and Roty Ring joins us on the line now. Hello.

RORY RING: Good morning. How are you?

AMT: I'm well I'm curious to know why do you support Mr. Ford's announcement to scrap the cap and trade program.

RORY RING: Well first let us be clear that this is not a position that is in any way GHG anti position. It really is a reflection of what we've been advocating for over the past years to the provincial government that the notion of cap and trade is at the very beginnings somewhat ill conceived. And we need to put this in a context that you know Canada globally only produces 2 percent of all GHG emissions. In Ontario itself even prior to to closing down coal production was only responsible over point eight per cent of all GHG production in the world, the highest in 2014 being China 30 percent, the US at 15 percent. So you can see it great discrepancy in the actual contribution to the challenge of how you monitor or control GHG production.

AMT: Right. But you know of course other people point out that Canada has per capita emissions that are very high. So we don't pollute a large in one percentage if you use another number they argue we do, but keep going.

RORY RING: Absolutely and you know if you take a look at the nature of our economy we are heavily vested in the oil sands. We do produce steel, we produce chemicals and we you know we produce materials that are shipped off to other jurisdictions where value is added and they have lower environmental standards that we have which exist today. So when you look at the trend, Canada since you know 1980 has reduced its per capita from 4.98 to 4.12 and that demonstrates that the free market can actually help drive the behaviors within industry to address things like carbon production and GHG.

AMT: So let's talk about you and your community. How much has the cap and trade system affected businesses and Saulte Ste Marie?

RORY RING: So we've estimated that, out of our local economy, the cap and trade program will extract 25 million dollars to 30 million dollars and that's through the residential, commercial and industrial impact. That does not include the purchase of the credits that I have referred to earlier. Obviously we have a steel production facility here. We have a pipe production facility here that both have been granted moratorium status for the four years. So if we think about then, the 2.8 billion that was purchased and obviously [unintelligible] would be contributing to that number in a very significant way, is going to really really impact the ability of those two industries to be competitive. It impacts the ability of small and medium sized enterprises to be competitive. And we also have to reflect now, given the current challenges that are faced with tariffs that have been imposed both on steel and aluminum, what impact that has on interior steel production in our community to be able to compete.

AMT: You know Quebec maintains that its cap and trade system has been good for its economy. Why do you think it's not good for Ontario but good for Quebec?

RORY RING: Certainly it depends on how they have allocated their moratorium credit purchasing balances and how they have provided other offsets. So I am not an expert by any means on the Quebec situation but they have a different approach to providing offsets to their core industries. Those mainly being in the energy producing area. So you know it can have a positive effect don't get me wrong, but if you're not having a program - we've always advocated if you're going to be taking monies out of the system like from Algoma you have to reinvest directly back into an industry like that, so they can develop the breakthrough technology that will eliminate the base carbon footprint that they need to use to produce steel or to produce pipe or to produce cement for other industries. So you know these technologies have to be invested in. They're very expensive to do the research. We've always advocated that 25 million dollars that's coming out of my community should be invested either in the college or the university and private public sector partnerships to develop research and development, so that can address on a regional aspect how that industry can be more efficient in terms of producing the technology to reduce carbon footprint. For example it has reduced already without the incentive 65 percent of their carbon footprint is being reduced since 2002, to [unintelligible] in 2010 has reduced their carbon foot by 23 percent, and that's without cut cap and trade.

AMT: Okay. Mr. Ring we have to leave it there. Thanks for your thoughts.

RORY RING: All right, thank you very much.

AMT: Rory rings CEO of the Saulte Ste Marie Ontario Chamber of Commerce and we reached him in Saulte Ste Marie. Not everyone thinks the incoming premier's decision is a good one. My next guest believes some individual businesses will be affected negatively by Ontario's decision to end cap and trade. Tom Rand says the move will also cost taxpayers more money and even hobble the provinces ability to play a leading role in clean tech industry. Tom Rand is the managing partner at Arc Tern Ventures which invests in start-ups that are trying to solve climate change. He is also the author of Waking the Frog: Solutions for our Climate Paralysis. He joins me in our Toronto studio. Hello.

TOM RAND: Good morning.

AMT: So he just argued that business case against cap and trade. Why do you think Ontario should keep the program?

TOM RAND: Well I would actually first point out that Mr. Ring's suggestion that the money raised from cap and trade be reinvested in those industries that pay it is precisely what that legislation did. That 2.8 billion dollars was earmarked for large scale demonstration projects taking the financial burden off industries of retrofitting their factories. So it was precisely what he claims to have been advocating for. But the reason I think it's a bad decision is, there's three costs to Ontario in that decision; short, medium and long term. In short term we have to pay back the 3 billion dollars that has been raised. Those companies need to be made whole. In the medium term the feds are clearly going to step in and impose their carbon backstop. The projected price of the federal backstop is 50 dollars a ton by 2022. In Ontario under cap and trade is expected to be twenty five dollars a tonne. So that will actually cost Ontarians more money not less. And the feds will have control over that money. They'll return it to Ontario but they'll decide how they return it and it's outside of Doug Ford's control. But to me the long term cost is precisely this: We're in the first decade of multidecadal seismic shift in the global economy as we move away from fossil fuels and towards clean energy. And jurisdictions that get ahead of that change that figure out ways to gain advantage in the market, building next generation technologies, building them at scale, a stand to gain enormous economic advantage. So to me it's tomorrows jobs that are on the line. And I think Ontario is very well positioned. Prior to that announcement everything was lined up. We have some very strong horses in that race that are really gaining momentum. The challenge challenges we now have a lot of uncertainty in that market, the investment community, the mood has changed a little bit. You know we'll recover we'll do our best. But certainly it takes the wind out of the sails of the next generation of jobs we're trying to build in this province.

AMT: And you know part of the aversion to this is what it costs for a liter of gas at the pumps an extra 4.3 Cents. Are those are those linked? Like do they have to be linked, the price at the pump to the wider issue?

TOM RAND: They do. I'll be honest I mean the whole point of market based incentives is to change consumer behavior. And we know that we change behavior on price signals. So you know the idea is eventually we will drive lower carbon fuels into the system for one thing that's one effect on industry. But for consumers you're really driving decisions to use more efficient engines for example, make your house more fuel efficient. And that's what some of those incentives were for the money raised was being recycled back to help consumers and industry adapt to those price changes. So ultimately I, as a consumer, if I actually use less carbon going forward I will actually become wealthier than before. So I think that's really where the rubber hits the road in terms of engaging consumers.

AMT: Our last guest made the point that that many companies are already reducing their carbon footprint and that you could should just let the market do it.

TOM RAND: Oh the market will not do this on its own. We've been waiting since 1989 when Margaret Thatcher at the U.N. called climate change the single greatest threat to civilization. That's Margaret Thatcher. It's been you know a 25 year 30 years since then. The free market will not solve this problem. It is not at all controversial to say if the right to pollute is free, there is zero incentive to reduce it. The reductions that we've seen on per capita emissions have come from happenstance changes in the market. Natural gas became cheaper than coal. That's one reason why the United States for example seen their GHG reduce, but there's limits to that. Those are just lucky guesses on the part of the market. You need to have rules in place over the long term to give industry the incentive and the fiduciaries obligation to their shareholders to find ways to reduce their emissions.

AMT: You make the point that green technology will not- Ontario is basically abdicating a leadership role in green technology. Where will those businesses go?

TOM RAND: Well we hope they'll still stay here. That's what my job is is to make sure they stay here, but they may move. They'll move to where the capitalist. They'll move to where the customers are. The notion that our environmental aspirations coincide with our economic well-being really really comes into play here. Ontario has the opportunity to build companies that will export solutions to the rest of the world. We will be selling next generation energy storage, solar panels, power tronics etc. to the rest of the world if we get ahead of this parade. That's where we gain economic advantage. That's where jobs come from, wealth comes from. But it also happens to be the most, the biggest contribution we can make to global emissions. We lower the cost of India's compliance because we sell the next generation solar panels and energy storage. And so I think if we really keep our eye on the ball there is no separation from our environmental aspirations, our moral capacity, to act on climate and our self-interest in building the economy. It's in exporting these technologies.

AMT: Ontario's cap and trade program includes agreements with Quebec in California what are the legal implications of breaking those agreements?

TOM RAND: Well there's a timeframe. We have to stay in this agreement I believe it's until the end of 2020. If we rip it up prior to that there will clearly be lawsuits. There's economic damage and uncertainty created in those markets. But even if we don't rip it up and we stay the course to the end of 2020 the permits become worthless. I mean people are buying forward permits. They're buying the right to permit in 2020 in 2022 and 2023. Those permits become worthless. We've disrupted the markets in California Quebec, and California has expressed a firm intent to defend its economic interests as it continues to take the lead on climate and clean tech and gain economic advantage. By the way California's doing very well in clean tech. There's a lot of good jobs there. Ontario just reneged on its promise.

AMT: Okay well we have to leave it there. Thank you for your thoughts on this.

TOM RAND: You are the welcome.

AMT: Tom Rand managing partner at Arc Tern Ventures which invests in start-ups trying to solve climate change. He joined us in our Toronto studio. Well when Canada's second largest province makes a move such as this there are bound to be political implications in other parts of the country and in Ottawa. To help us explore those we've reached Lori Williams in Calgary. She's an associate professor of policy studies at Mount Royal University in Calgary. Hello Lori Williams.

LORI WILLIAMS: Hi Anna Maria.

AMT: Well what do you think of Mr. Ford's decision to end Ontario's cap and trade program?

LORI WILLIAMS: Well I mean it's part of a bigger challenge that we're seeing is, as you know, Scott Moe in Saskatchewan is planning to constitutionally challenge the federal government program or legislation. Jason Kenney who is the opposition leader here in Alberta wants to intervene on his side and Manitoba has sought a legal opinion that says that the federal government isn't authorized to pass this legislation and enforce it. But there are limits in terms of what it can do if Manitoba institutes a program or a policy on its own.

AMT: So it's a bit of a constitutional fight right now as well then.

LORI WILLIAMS: Well it is. It's part of a bigger challenge to the federal government. In other words, we did have a mandatory reluctantly on board. British Columbia had a policy or has rather a policy that is revenue neutral. Ontario and Quebec were in cap and trade and so there were a number of provinces there were on site, two and possibly three of which will be off site if you like are challenging the federal government in the next few years.

AMT: Is it surprising then to see the premier of Ontario reversed course on a policy? It's complex and it's internationally connected. But are you surprised?

LORI WILLIAMS: Well I mean has been promised for some time and we're seeing this in Alberta as well. Opposition to the carbon tax is fairly widespread the charge being led by Jason Kenney. He's saying he's going to scrap the tax. I am very interested to see what he actually does when he gets into power because there are good reasons for provincial governors have some kind of program, if only to prevent the federal government from intervening. But part of the strategy here appears to be to make it more difficult for the federal government to be re-elected. So the federal Conservative, provincial Conservatives in Ontario, in Alberta and possibly in Manitoba are actually trying to use this to challenge the federal government into diminishing chances of re-election.

AMT: And in Alberta, they've used the argument of some kind of a carbon tax though as part of an argument or the Ottawa has in its promotion of the Trans Mountain pipeline, has it not?

LORI WILLIAMS: Alberta's Rachel Notley and Justin Trudeau, one of the key planks in their argument in favour of the balance between the economy and the environment. Their argument in favour of Trans Mountain was that in fact the funding that they or the revenues would generate through - Alberta and in Canada - through the Trans Mountain pipeline would actually yield environmental benefits. If these programs both in Alberta and federally are in jeopardy as a result of these challenges, then the net environmental impact could be negative and perhaps more to the point as we've seen the opposition amongst environmentalists to the oil industry and particularly the oil sands in Alberta has diminished, partly because these these revenues that are being generated are being used to invest in the technology as Tom Rand was arguing, when those technologies have actually netted environmental benefits and potentially economic benefits down the road. So both Justin Trudeau and Rachel Notley were trying to do this balance of the economy and the environment partly through carbon taxes or in Ontario through cap and trade. And some of those environmental benefits could be lost and certainly some of the political benefits could be lost.

AMT: I was just going to ask you before I let you go - we're almost out of time - but then you see this ripple effect, these domino effect, how could all of this affect the environmental ambitions on climate change of the prime minister?

LORI WILLIAMS: Well we've got two plants federally and provincially in Alberta, and I am setting aside the other ones that we've talked about. And those plants the ability to invest in new technology to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and to improve the brand if you like are the reputation, the environmental reputation, of Canada and specifically Alberta. All of those hinge on the revenues that are being generated through either carbon taxes or cap and trade. If that money is lost, if the programs that they fund diminish then we'll actually have net negative benefit or effects rather on the environment.

AMT: We have to leave it there, Lori Williams thank you.

LORI WILLIAMS: Thank you.

AMT: Lori Williams Associate Professor of Policy Studies at Mount Royal University in Calgary. That is our program for today stay with Radio 1 for Q. Canadian author Lynne Crosby is on the program today to talk about her latest book it's called Chicken. Tomorrow on The Current we're going to hear about an unusual and unsettling case of hummingbirds killed to fuel a black market in dried hummingbird love charms. I'll be joined by an American forensic ornithologist and yes there is such a thing as a forensic ornithologist. You're going to learn all about it tomorrow. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thank you for listening to The Current.

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