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The Current Transcript for May 15, 2018

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

STEPHANIE CASE: I also tried to pull a tire around. That's one way to train for hills. So I have a tire from one of the armoured vehicles, which is quite heavy because it's laced with steel. I can go for maybe an hour or two.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: When you're living in an armed compound training for an ultra-marathon, a race hundreds of kilometres, long you get creative. When you're a human rights lawyer your freedom to run stands in stark contrast to the women in the conflict zones where you work. And when you're Stephanie Case all that running sparks an idea to empower those women and help them participate in the fun of the run. Today, we'll introduce you to Stephanie Case, driven, disciplined, relentless in pursuit of the ultra-long distance run. And in the midst of her human rights work, coaching women to run hundreds of kilometres in races they never dreamed they could even enter. Hear her story and theirs in half an hour. Also today, his admirers see him as a billionaire philanthropist, funding universities, NGOs and movements for democratic freedom. But to his critics, George Soros is the ultimate villain, manipulating politics with foreign money.

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ALEX JONES: The average American has no idea what goes on behind the scenes to try to take his country down. George Soros, people ask why I talk about George Soros so much, because every time I kick down another door it's him on the other side of it.

AMT: In his native Hungary they are trying to bring in a law against him. Elsewhere, his angry critics blame him for, well, just about everything. In an hour we're looking at George Soros and his power to polarize. But we're starting here.

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BENJAMIN NETANYAHU: What a glorious day. Remember this moment. President Trump, by recognizing history, you have made history.

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AMT: I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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Segment 1: In recognizing Jerusalem as a capital, can the U.S. play a fair role in peace?

In recognizing Jerusalem as a capital, can the U.S. play a fair role in peace?

Guests: Derek Stoffel, Einat Wilf and Dr. Mustafa Barghouti

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IVNAKA TRUMP: On behalf of the 45^th president of the United States of America, we welcome you officially, and for the first time, to the embassy of the United States here in Jerusalem, the capital of Israel. Thank you.

AMT: Well, Monday marked 70 years since the establishment of Israel, and more history was made as the new U.S. embassy was opened in Jerusalem with presidential daughter and adviser Ivanka Trump among the dignitaries at the celebratory affair. Just 65 kilometres away, a different reaction to the same history.

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PROTESTORS IN THE STREETS

AMT: Israeli forces opened fire on Palestinian protesters across the Gaza border killing at least 58 people, leaving more than 2,700 wounded, making it the bloodiest death toll since the end of the 2014 Gaza War. Today marks the 70^th anniversary of what Palestinians call the Nakba, the catastrophe, the mass displacement of Palestinians and the war following Israel's creation. The CBC's Middle East correspondent Derek Stoffel is in the Gaza Strip. Hi Derek.

DEREK STOFFEL: Good morning, Anna Maria.

AMT: Where are you?

DEREK STOFFEL: I'm in the centre of Gaza City, about a block away from the main hospital, the Al-Shifa Hospital, and we're meeting some of the aid groups here beds here. The Doctors Without Borders have been critical of what happened here yesterday. So in the centre of town it is sort of life as usual in Gaza. Shops are open, it's bustling here and the hospital though, a very busy place right now.

AMT: And so what are you learning about the people who were killed and injured yesterday?

DEREK STOFFEL: Mainly they were young men. And what we understand happened here yesterday was that in the morning the Hamas militant group that controls Gaza they put out the call, some of the mosques that are affiliated with Hamas, they also had the Imams put out the call that yesterday was a day for Gazans to go to the fence that separates the Gaza Strip from Israel to march against this fence. And that is when we saw this very, very bloody day.

AMT: And so the international aid groups that you're talking to, are they raising concerns on both sides? Not only that the Israelis were shooting, but that Hamas was urging those people forward?

DEREK STOFFEL: Yeah, there is. You know, we've certainly seen a lot of criticism of Israel and its tactics, but also groups like Amnesty International and the Israelis, of course, have said that what Hamas was doing yesterday was essentially putting people in harm's way by sending them to the border. The Israelis certainly believe that the militant group Hamas was in an effort to aid their cause, in the effort to sort of promote solidarity or even sympathy with the Palestinians that they sent these young men, these young boys in some cases, out toward the border. And the Israelis say that, essentially, they were responding to keep these people from crossing the border. Just to give you a sense of how this border works, in some places, for example where I cross this morning at the Arab checkpoint, it is a big concrete wall, so harder to get through. But the vast majority of the border fence separating Gaza from Israel is an actual fence, but it's two fences, Anna-Maria. So the first one is chain link fence and then there is a road and then there's the second fence. It's my understanding, and according to talking to aid groups, that what's generally happened yesterday and in the days previously when we've seen protest as well, is that there have been attempts when some of the Palestinians have gotten to that first fence. The Israelis say that, in many cases, the Palestinians who reached the fence they are affiliated with Hamas and that in some cases have explosives, trying to plant explosive explosives. But the groups, you know, Doctors Without Borders for example, has said that the second fence has not been breached and that’s been sort of why there has been criticism, that according to Human Rights Watch excessive force was used. The general sense from some of these aid groups is that the second fence has not been penetrated, and as a result Israelis on the other side were never at huge risk. They are very clear in terms of their response, all through this period of protests and, in fact, they dropped some leaflets in the last couple of days saying that they will not tolerate anyone getting close to that fence, that they will stop people. And we did hear a defense of the Israeli Defense Forces from Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu today. He said that it is the right of every sovereign nation to defend its borders.

AMT: And what is expected today? What has been happening? Have they been back at the fence?

DEREK STOFFEL: No. In most places along the border where there have been these sort of protest camps for the last seven weeks, we were just at one of the areas near a community called Beit Einun in Gaza and it was incredibly quiet. And that is because the grassroots organizations that have been behind many of these protests over the last couple of weeks, they were calling on Gazans to stay away from the border area. They say today is not the time to march on the border. It is a time to mourn and it is time to very bury Gaza’s dead. At least 58 people were killed. And we do know that overnight and into this morning many, many funerals have been held here.

AMT: Derek Stoffel, thank you.

DEREK STOFFEL: You're welcome.

AMT: Derek Stoffel, the CBC's Middle East correspondent speaking to us from Gaza City today. While Jerusalem remains a disputed city in the eyes of the international community, the western half is where the new U.S. embassy is located. Israel annexed the eastern half decades ago. It contains the old city with sites that are so holy to Jews and Muslims and Christians. It is both emblematic of the divide between Israelis and Palestinians and symbolic of how intertwined both sides are. Watching all of the developments around all of this is Einat Wilf. She was born in Jerusalem. She's a former Labour Party member of Israel's legislature the Knesset. She's written a new book that was published this week in Hebrew it's called The War For Return. Einat Wilf joins us from Tel Aviv. Hello.

EINAT WILF: Hello.

AMT: You supported Donald Trump's decision to move the embassy to Jerusalem. Why?

EINAT WILF: Because the policy that kept the status, especially of the western part of Jerusalem, hostage to negotiations over the eastern part made no sense. The idea that Israel as a sovereign nation has the right of every sovereign nation to establish its capital in undisputed territory, which is the western part of Jerusalem, was one that should have never been challenged. And the fact that the move of the embassy, which again, is not on the eastern part of Jerusalem, puts an end to that. What I would have preferred, of course, for the American president to be very clear that the eastern part of Jerusalem is still up for negotiations. But the fact that he did make it clear that the final borders are a final status issue, that he did not rule out the possibility of a Palestinian state with its capital in East Jerusalem and a future U.S. embassy there, as far as I'm concerned still leaves the issue open and finally ends the idea that West Jerusalem should be challenged.

AMT: And how do you respond to the fact that the Canadian government supports a two-state solution and will not be moving its embassy to Jerusalem?

EINAT WILF: I actually think that every government that claims to support a two-state solution and does not move its embassy to West Jerusalem is being deeply hypocritical, if not worse than that.

AMT: Yesterday was the bloodiest day in Gaza since 2014. Gaza's Ministry of Health reports close to 60 people dead, 2,700 injured. How do you account for the way Israel responded to those protests yesterday?

EINAT WILF: The context of the protest, we need to understand, is really the deepest issue in Gaza and in many ways in the Palestinian ethos. It's called this idea of return. It is actually the idea for Palestinians that one day the state of Israel will disappear and be superseded and replaced by an Arab Palestine, what people call from the river to the sea. And that Palestine is really what Palestinians continue to dream of and they’re very attached to that vision. It is that attachment that has prevented them for decades from compromising with Israel and agreeing to divide the land, because in their mind it is entirely theirs and will one day return to be theirs. Now 80 per cent of the people who live in Gaza consider themselves as people who should not be living in Gaza, but should be living and taking over the state of Israel. This is why they started four months ago to begin these weekly marches of return. They're very clear that they want to breach the border, the 1967 border, into Israel within the green line. And that is something that Israel cannot allow.

AMT: Isn’t the right of return, as it's called, part of an ongoing peace process, though?

EINAT WILF: Actually, not. The return was actually conceived immediately in 1949 as the continuation of the war against Israel by other means. It's not a right anywhere in international law. So this cannot be, the annihilation of the state of Israel, cannot be something that's part of the negotiations for peace. Negotiations for peace depend on actually before entering the negotiations making it very clear that there is a willingness to accept that the Jewish people have an equal right, a legitimate right to sovereignty in the land.

AMT: Just so I understand, are you saying negotiations for peace would mean the people in Gaza will have to stay in Gaza?

EINAT WILF: Absolutely.

AMT: With those borders locked in?

EINAT WILF: Not locked in there. Once there's peace everything can be opened but it needs to be very clear that they need to build their future in Gaza and in the West Bank, where Palestine will be.

AMT: So let me ask you, there are who say that by moving the embassy and making this announcement at this time, President Trump has given the green light to Prime Minister Netanyahu to act without restraint?

EINAT WILF: I actually don't think there is any such green light. In terms of what happened in Gaza, I have to say this is the broadest consensus in Israeli society. The borders of Israel, the ‘67 borders, will not be breached. And the idea of return is about our disappearance, and that, we are not willing to do. And that has nothing to do with any specific American or Israeli president. It's a broad consensus.

AMT: And there are those Palestinians who say that in recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, the U.S. cannot be seen as a neutral broker.

EINAT WILF: I actually think the question of peace is not about whether we have good or bad brokers. Israelis and Palestinians live side-by-side. We know how to negotiate with each other. The prospects of peace are enhanced, not by brokers, they're enhanced by the Palestinians actually adopting realistic goals — an independent state of Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza.

AMT: So you think that there is still a chance for peace?

EINAT WILF: Absolutely. I actually believe that the chance for peace comes closer when the Palestinians are not coddled in their maximalist delusions of from the river to the sea. Peace comes closer when they get a message that says ‘get real.’ The Jews have a right to sovereignty, you have a right to sovereignty. That's the idea of two states.

AMT: Ms. Wilf, we have to leave it there. Thank you for your perspective.

EINAT WILF: Thank you.

AMT: Einat Wilf is a former Labour Party member of the Israeli Knesset. She spoke to us from Tel Aviv. Dr. Mustafa Barghouti was also born in Jerusalem. He is the secretary general of the Palestinian National Initiative, as well as the president of the Palestinian Medical Relief Society and a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council. Mustafa Barghouti joins us from Ramallah. Hello.

MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI: Hello to you.

AMT: Einat Wilf says there can be no return for Palestinians. How do you respond to that?

MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI: Well, she misled you actually with many wrong statements. First of all, the United Nations Resolution 194 said very clearly, which connected the recognition of Israel to the right of return to the Palestinian refugees who were ethnically cleansed from their land in 1948. It's not only a right that is guaranteed by that particular resolution, but it is a human right that is well known that all refugees that are displaced by force from their homeland should be allowed to return to their homeland. And that's why this issue is part of the negotiation process, which Israel has killed. One other thing she said, that she agrees with the Palestinians having a state in the West Bank. But she didn't explain why Israel continues to build illegal settlements in the West Bank. Why they continue to fragment the West Bank? Why they continue to annex land in the West Bank? It was also reported that this move of the embassy relates only to Jerusalem, which is totally untrue. I'll repeat what Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel said, he said Jerusalem would remain the eternal unified capital of Israel. So that means including East and West Jerusalem, which means that the United States is now participating in violating international law by accepting the annexation of occupied territory by force.

AMT: So what message do you take from President Trump's decision to put the U.S. embassy in Jerusalem? What's the wider message?

MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI: The clear message is that he is totally biased to Israel. And his team is absolutely pro-Israeli. And all their statements, not only in relationship to Jerusalem, but also in relationship to settlements, which has increased by 140 per cent since he was elected. The fact that he said that Jerusalem is off the table that means we cannot negotiate about it. He's taking refugees off the table. He's getting support to the United Nations Relief and Works Agencies which supports refugees, all his messages are negative and all of them are in one direction, which is supporting Israeli unacceptable measures of annexation and violation of international law, which makes the United States incapable of playing a role as a mediator.

AMT: And so do you see a possibility for a peace process in your future?

MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI: Of course. The only peace that we can achieve is the one where there will be no occupation and no oppression of Palestinians. Yesterday, Israel committed a massacre. And let me clarify a few points. First of all, it's not Hamas alone that is demonstrating, it's all Palestinian groups regardless of their political affiliation. And here now, I just came from the field in Ramallah where we don't have any Hamas activists at the moment. Palestinians are peacefully demonstrating, protesting against that massacre. And the Israeli army is shooting us with live ammunition, with teargas bombs and they are even using planes to throw teargas bombs at us. That's in Ramallah and the West Bank, not in Gaza. And in my opinion, yesterday what happened was a massacre because the people who were killed were not killed at the fence, they were killed inside Gaza. Few people know that Israel is forbidding Palestinians in Gaza from entering what is no less than 24 per cent of Gaza Strip, which is considered a buffer zone. If farmers go there to farm they shoot them. And now all the demonstrators, including an eight-month-old baby who suffocated from teargas, all of them died — were killed — in that buffer zone and not at the borders.

AMT: And I think our reporter made it clear that they were on the Gaza side of that border and of that fence. What do you say to those critics who say Hamas encouraged people to go?

MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI: It's not just Hamas. It’s all Palestinians.

AMT: But they had the buses.

MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI: No, no, no. All political parties are part of the unified leadership, including Hamas, including Fatah, including the Palestinian National Initiative, including the Democratic Front. All of them were peacefully protesting demanding two things. First of all, the admission of the right of return, and second that the siege on Gaza will be lifted. The Israeli siege on Gaza, which is continuing for 12 years, is depriving people from food, depriving people from work, depriving people from electricity, from water. 95 per cent of water in Gaza is polluted or salinated. People have only electricity for four hours. There is a very serious shortage of medical supplies. Gaza Strip, which is only 140 square miles, practically now 100 miles, is full with two million people living in an open prison. How can this be accepted? I mean, by humanity in general I don't understand. And then these people are bombarded and shot at and killed. It's unacceptable. It’s savagery. It's barbaric.

AMT: Dr. Barghouti, we are almost out of time. Let me ask you, you have made the point that the rift between Fatah and Hamas, one running one side, one running the other — Hamas in Gaza of Fatah in in the West Bank — needs to be needs to be bridged. How do you move forward after the description you just said, briefly we're almost out of time, but how do you see Palestinians moving forward together?

MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI: I think what happened during the last five weeks is very encouraging because Hamas is convinced now with our approach of nonviolent resistance. For years we've been told by ministers ,prime ministers, “Why don't you use Martin Luther King and Gandhi approach of peaceful resistance?” That's exactly what Hamas agreed with today. And we are all sticking to nonviolent resistance, which in my opinion, provides a stronger base for the unity between all of us. We will continue to work in that direction and we will continue to stick to nonviolence. We will not allow Israel to incite us and provoke us to use military force. We will insist on nonviolence and they have to be responsible for their actions in Gaza and in the West Bank.

AMT: We have to leave it there. Thank you for your perspective.

MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI: Thank you.

AMT: That is Dr. Mustafa Barghouti. He's the secretary general of the Palestinian National Initiative. He's the president of the Palestinian Medical Relief Society and he's a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council. We reached him in Ramallah. Stay with us. The news is next and then there are marathons and then there are ultra-marathons — my next guest has completed dozens of them. As a human rights lawyer with the U.N. in Afghanistan, in Gaza, she's helping women in conflict zones run as well. You'll hear from Stephanie Case when we return. This is The Current.

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Segment 2: Meet the lawyer and ultrarunner who creates safe spaces for others to compete in sport

Meet the lawyer and ultrarunner who creates safe spaces for others to compete in sport

Guest: Stephanie Case

AMT: Hello, I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current. Still to come, he once made $1 billion in a single trading day, and for years George Soros has been putting his profits where his democratic ideals are. But George Soros remains a mystery and at the centre of conspiracy theories. In half-an-hour we'll look at the financier's political motivations and the Hungarian government's controversial ‘Stop Soros’ legislation. But first an all-around ultra.

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STEPHANIE CASE SINGING: Night three. Here we go. Small boat on the ocean, sailing big waves, it’s motion.

AMT: That is Stephanie Case singing to herself in the darkness. She is about 200 kilometres into a 330 kilometre trail race through Italy's Aosta Valley — and that is not unusual for her. She's a 35-year-old Canadian, she's completed more than 35 ultra-marathons and she has finished among the top five runners in 20 of those. But she credits that race in Italy as one of her proudest achievements, and singing helped get her through.

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STEPHANIE CASE SINGING: This is my fight song. Take back my life song. This is my tour song

AMT: Stephanie Case posted that video on her blog Ultra Runner Girl, where she writes about running, war zones — and everything in between. Because Stephanie Case is also a human rights lawyer working for the U.N. in some of the world's most dangerous spots. She combined those two passions in a charity She's founded. It's called Free To Run. It aims to give women and girls living in conflict zones access to outdoor sports. She's currently stationed in Kabul, Afghanistan. But we have caught up with her in Kingston, Ontario, fresh from competing for Team Canada at the trail world championships in Spain. Stephanie Case, Hello.

STEPHANIE CASE: Hello. It's great to be able to speak with you today.

AMT: Listening to that you're a little out of breath but you are 200 Ks in, you’re no more out of breath than some people climbing stairs.

STEPHANIE CASE: I was having a really hard time not laughing through that whole thing.

AMT: Well, take us back to how you were feeling in those moments when you were singing.

STEPHANIE CASE: You know, when you get to that stage, I've been running for a couple of days, and you're really just trying to do anything you can to stay upright and keep your eyes open, especially when you're climbing up a hill, it's when you get into a bit of a a death march and your brain kind of shuts off. And so what I was trying to do was listen to that song and learn the lyrics because if you just listen to music it's not enough to keep you awake and you can hear I'm not a very good singer. But it was functional, there's no one around to me, anyway.

AMT: So talk about endurance. Tell us a little bit more about this race because it's 330 kilometres and up and down serious altitude?

STEPHANIE CASE: Yeah, there's about 24,000 metres of climbing throughout the race. So that's the equivalent of going from sea level to the top of Everest and back down two-and-a-half times. It's a pretty hardy race. It's just one of the most incredible experiences I've ever had. I mean, you can go through so many highs and lows and it's a full body and mind challenge, really.

AMT: How many days are we talking about?

STEPHANIE CASE: You have 150 hours to finish, but I was racing pretty hard that year and I managed to finish that year and in 98 hours, so it was just over four days. And through that period I only got about two-and-a-half hours of sleep in total.

AMT: Wow. What does that do to you? How do you actually go forward? How do you stay lucid?

STEPHANIE CASE: Yeah. You know, being an forward motion just becomes your new normal and you just have to get used to doing everything while your legs are moving — thinking, eating, breathing, talking — but you can go through some pretty deep lows, especially, you know, in the middle of the night when you're climbing over a 3,000 metre pass and you're all by yourself and it's snowing or raining and you're just exhausted to the point that you just don't even believe that you can actually take another step.

AMT: But you are even hallucinating at one point in that race, weren't you?

STEPHANIE CASE: Yeah, I think it was sleep running, actually. I was coming down one of the mountain passes and it was in the middle of the night and it was quite foggy and I remember thinking, ‘I'm so glad my friend Michael is here running with me, otherwise I'd be too scared to do this on my own.’ And all of a sudden I just woke up falling into a ditch. And I wasn't sure really what was happening, but I looked around and Michael wasn't there and I was pretty annoyed that he had just left me, especially when I had fallen. And then I realised he was never there and I was having that whole interaction with him in some kind of a dreamlike state. My whole experience in ultra-marathons has been trying to find out what my limitations are. And that was one of those moments where I thought, ‘Finally after all these years of training and racing, I've found out what my limit is and I'm at it.’

AMT: Well you have talked about seeking the void, is that related to that? What is that?

STEPHANIE CASE: It's about — you know, modern life we're so busy and we kind of get into a bit of a routine where we just go to work, we come home, we've got family life, we've got friends and everything is quite hectic. And it's very hard for me, as I'm sure it is for a lot of other people, to take that time to just stop and to let my brain breathe and to just think and reflect on all of these things that are happening around me. And when I'm running that's when my brain can really stand still and I can really only get that through running.

AMT: You talk about how you keep going but just physically what are you eating? How do you keep going? How do you get the calories to keep moving forward?

STEPHANIE CASE: It's tough to get enough calories in because your body can really only digest between two and three hundred calories an hour if it's really working at its best. And in an ultra-marathon you could be burning 700,000 calories or more, depending on the altitude and the conditions. But for me, I end up relying a lot on potato chips because of the fat and the salt. And then and whatever my body craves — sometimes it's avocados. In Tor des Geants, for at least a day, I wasn't able to eat solid food without getting nauseous and so I just started thinking of anything that I could just swallow quite easily without having to chew and so I ended up getting my family, who were crewing for me, they went and got me a tub of ice cream and a can of aerosol whipped cream. And so I ate half-a-gallon of ice cream and then when I was climbing up one of the hills I think about what I was trying to have my singing moment there, I had a candidate cream in my backpack and just kind of squirted some into my mouth whenever I needed a bit of energy. I even drank two cups of olive oil on that on that race just because I could tell that my body was starting to eat away at my muscles. And when I saw olive oil at one of the checkpoints I just thought it would be the quickest way to get a couple of thousand calories in.

AMT: Well that must take real training. So how do you train when you're living in conflict zones? What do you do when you're living in Afghanistan?

STEPHANIE CASE: It's pretty difficult. And this is my second time living in Afghanistan. I spent about four or five years living in areas of conflict in Afghanistan, South Sudan and Gaza. And I'm under quite strict security rules with the United Nations. So currently I'm not allowed to go outside of my compound except by armoured vehicles. So I live in an armed compound, the longest stretch of road is just over 500 metres. So I am able to run inside the compound but it's a pretty limited space. It’s lot of loops and treadmill. I also try to pull a tire around. That's one way to train for hills without having actual access to the hills. So I have a tire from one of the armoured vehicles, which is quite heavy because it's laced with steel, and I attach a bungee rope to it and then it attaches to a harness that I wear and I can drive that around the compound.

AMT: How many times would you go around with a tire?

STEPHANIE CASE: Well, you move very slowly, so I can go for maybe an hour or two.

AMT: An hour or two around and around with the tire? You’re a machine.

[LAUGHTER]

STEPHANIE CASE: Well, you know, when I first moved to Afghanistan the first time in 2012 people told me “You're going to have to give up your running.” And to me that just wasn't an option because my work, my human rights work, is just as big of a passion for me as my as my running. And I wanted to have both. And I just wasn't willing to accept that I'd only be able to do one. And so I learned back then how to make things interesting. You know, even though I've only got a small space to run in I can run at different times a day so it makes it seem like the areas different. When I run at night it looks different than during the day and I can use my imagination to think that I'm running around Central Park or running through the mountains or, you know, there's some areas of the compound that have a lot of garbage and debris and I pretend that that's my trail section because it requires a little bit more technical footwork.

AMT: And when you were working in Gaza were you in a compound as well? Where would you run?

STEPHANIE CASE: In Gaza it was a bit different. I was in an apartment building so I actually didn't have the luxury, really, of living inside a compound. I had to take an armoured vehicle to a nearby compound where there was even less space than what I have access to now in Afghanistan. And sometimes I couldn't get an armoured vehicle so I would have to run up and down the stairs in my apartment building. And with electricity only being on a few hours a day sometimes I'd have to put on my head torch and my hydration pack and I would just run up and down the stairs and do circles around the around the rooftop.

AMT: Now you had a tire in Gaza too, it had a name, didn’t it? You named your tire?

STEPHANIE CASE: Yeah, the tire in Gaza was Tyrone. And I've just named my tire in Afghanistan — it's called Tyrell, which apparently means stubborn. So I thought that it was quite a good name. My mom came up with it for me.

AMT: I don't know if the tire’s the stubborn one.

[LAUGHTER]

STEPHANIE CASE: We’re a good match.

AMT: Or at least disciplined and determined, though. So what are you doing in Afghanistan? What is your work?

STEPHANIE CASE: So I work in human rights. Right now I'm the head of protection of civilians and child protection. So it's really looking at the different human rights violations and violations of international humanitarian law committed by the different parties to the conflict and then trying to use that to better protect lives, particularly children as well.

AMT: And right now, you know, that we've seen a real wave of insurgent attacks heading into elections that are still in October. But how is that affecting the work that you do?

STEPHANIE CASE: It's it's been a very difficult time. It's been quite stressful. And, you know, the Afghans bear —they just bear a terrible toll. So it's very emotional work but it's something that I feel quite strongly about and quite privileged to be able to do. And you've worked with some Afghan women, notably two women one named Nelofar and one named Zainab. What can you tell us about them?

STEPHANIE CASE: Sure. They were our first ultra-marathon team through my charity Free to Run. So when I started Free to Run I really just wanted Afghan women to be able to have the same opportunities that we all experience, you know — the freedom to be able to step outdoors and to experience the power of sport. And when I started I really had quite modest goals. And it was just trying to find some safe space and opportunities for them to be able to move freely outside. But the first group of women that we worked with, they heard about my ultra-running and the races and they asked me lots of questions and I said” Someday I would really love to see an ultra-marathon team from Afghanistan.” And they said “Stephanie, why someday? Why can't we do it now?” And so it was from there that we formed the first ultra-marathon team from Afghanistan and it was of women. And that was Nelofar and Zainab. And so they went from being not runners at all to running a 250 kilometre self-supported foot race that you do over six days. And they finished. You know, it was just such an incredibly inspiring thing to witness because so many people didn't believe that they would be able to do that. It's something that grown men and women who have access to the best training and the best gear just aren't able to accomplish.

AMT: What’s that race called?

STEPHANIE CASE: It was the Gobi March. It's part of the Four Deserts series. And these women faced harassment, they had people throw stones at them when they were running on the street, calling them prostitutes for running. And no matter what they faced they didn't let it become anything that could hold them back from letting them achieve their goal.

AMT: So how many countries is your charity Free to Run actually working in now?

STEPHANIE CASE: We started in 2014 in Afghanistan and then we had a short project in South Sudan in a camp for internally displaced people where I used to work. Now we've actually started a project in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. And if we can get the funding we're hoping to open up a program in northern Iraq later this year.

AMT: And in between all of that you're still running these ultra-marathons as well? You went back to Tors Des Geants, did you not?

STEPHANIE CASE: I did. I had quite a big racing year last year. I had six pretty serious mountain ultra-marathons, which was significant for me because I'd had a near death accident in the mountains at the beginning of the year and was told that I might not be able to race or that I wouldn't be able to race all year.

AMT: What happened?

STEPHANIE CASE: I was training out in the Alps on January 1st on a trail that I knew very well. But I got a bit off the trail in the snow and I fell and I just couldn't stop myself and ended up hitting a tree and broke six ribs, lacerated my liver and punctured my lung — and I was by myself. So it was quite a serious accident and I almost didn't make it out. And the doctors told me ‘Don't don't even think about running this year.’ And of course when I hear that I just immediately try to find ways to make it work. And I was out running again after three-and-a-half weeks after the accident — after being in intensive care and in the hospital for about ten days.

AMT: That's incredible. And not only were you running you were training again for that giant marathon?

STEPHANIE CASE: I was, I was. I had had my accident in the same area where Tor Des Geants takes place. And so it was really meaningful for me to be able to come back and overcome my fears of being in the mountains and to prove that that actually my body and my mind had recovered, and just celebrating what my body could do. And one of the nurses who had been in the hospital after my accident, who had actually cut off my clothes when I first came in, she was a volunteer at one of the mountain huts one of the refuges when I when I came in. And she recognized me and she passed me a bowl of soup and she told me who she was. And it was really emotional for me to have that experience.

AMT: And so you have called that race — you said it almost broke you.

STEPHANIE CASE: It did. You know, I think before I did the race last year my performance in 2016, because it was second place and I was 14th overall, which just exceeded any expectation that I had ever had, that to me was my best performance. But now I'm looking at last year as my most favourite race, even though I did worse. But because I struggled so much more and I wanted to drop out at every checkpoint, because I was able to push through that and I did keep going, it now means a lot more to me.

AMT: And just in March you ran the Barkley Marathon, and it's known for being one of the strangest and most grueling ultras. Give us a snapshot of the Barkley?

STEPHANIE CASE: The Barkley Marathon is one of a kind. This race does not have an official race website, it's a secret on how to actually apply. People say that it's around 100 miles in distance but I think all of us know that it's got to be more. And it takes place in Tennessee and only 40 people are able to compete every year from around the world. It's been going on for decades I think still only about 15 people have finished and no women have ever been able to finish. It's a loop course. And what makes it so tough is that there are no trail markers, there's no actual trail that you're following. There is a course, but it's through the forest, through the bush. And you have to be able to decipher you know six pages of written instructions. Translate that onto a map and then follow that map with a compass. And you're going through the dark, through the rain. We had snow this year in the days leading up to the race. So it really is an adventure.

AMT: Well what you call an adventure, I don't know. Did you finish?

STEPHANIE CASE: I didn't. No one finished. There was one other Canadian, Gary Robbins, he was very close to finishing last year and this year he only made three loops out of five. I felt lucky I was able to do two loops. But outside of the allotted time period, but there were only three women who were able to get that far. So it was a good fail.

AMT: What is it you said, you’re a loser not a quitter?

STEPHANIE CASE: Loser, not a quitter. It was really important to me and my friend Gab, who I was running with, that if we were going to get pulled off the course it was because we would timeout and we weren't going to quit before we got to the end. In order to prove that you've made it along what the course should be, there are books buried in the forest under rocks, behind trees, along streams and you have to tear out a page of the book that corresponds to your bib number. And so we said we are not coming back until we find every book.

AMT: So what is it that you think or what is it that you have, what is it with you that you don't quit, that you just keep going?

STEPHANIE CASE: I think when we challenge ourselves and put ourselves outside of our comfort zone, when we face things that are difficult and uncomfortable, that's when you really learn the most about ourselves. You know, when you're out in the forest in the middle of the night and completely lost, you're just stripped down to your basics and your true personality and your vulnerabilities. Everything just comes out and I think when we quit we're really doing ourselves a disservice.

AMT: And what's the connection for you between your running and your human rights work for?

STEPHANIE CASE: For me, it's really the same motivation. I think both are true passions and they're not easy. But my human rights work, it's a real calling for me. I wish some days that I would have been able to stay in my job as a corporate lawyer in New York because that would be a lot more comfortable at times. But I feel like it's my role and it's a way that I can I can give back. But like ultra-running, it's uncomfortable, it's messy, it's challenging and sometimes I really I'm not sure that I'm going to be able to continue. But what I've learned from ultra-running is that those times are temporary and any time that I'm scared to do something or I don't think I can do something and I I keep pushing through, I'm always thankful for it at the end no matter how it turns out.

AMT: And how have you seen it change those women in the conflict zones who have been running and who have embraced this kind of goal?

STEPHANIE CASE: If you can remember the first time when you learned how to ride a bike or the first time you laced up shoes and went for a run as a kid, that feeling of just being free and being able to experience your surroundings without fear, which isn't something we think about. You know, when you see women and girls getting to experience that for the first time at the age of 15 or 20 or 25 it has a profound impact on their entire lives, their mental state, their goals in life. Something as simple as having a training plan to work up to a 5k a 10k or a marathon, some of the women who have gone through this they said “Before I didn't have plans for my future. I didn't think about what I was doing next week or next month.” They were just focusing on getting through the day and now having this chance to experience sports has changed our whole approach to life.

AMT: Stephanie Case it's really good to talk to you, thank you.

STEPHANIE CASE: Thank you so much.

AMT: Canadian Stephanie Case. She's a top ranking competitive ultra-runner, a human rights lawyer currently working for the U.N. in Afghanistan. She writes about it on her blog Ultra Runner Girl, we'll post a link on our website. We reached her in Kingston, Ontario. Stay with us. Coming up, who is George Soros? Venerated or vilified by different political camps he's an activist, philanthropist to be reckoned with. We're on that question and that story when we return. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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Segment 3: The global impact of billionaire philanthropist George Soros

The global impact of billionaire philanthropist George Soros

Guests: Emily Tamkin, Anna Porter and Laura Sibler

AMT: Hello, I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

GEORGE SOROS: Civil society is a vital component of democracy. And so is it open about public policy. I have dedicated my foundation, and my life, to promoting Open Society. The current Hungarian government stands the exact opposite.

AMT: Well that is someone more likely more used to hearing spoken about than actually hearing speak. That is George Soros, a billionaire many times over, the Hungarian-American financiers are so famously active as a philanthropist. His website describes his work as “supporting democracy and human rights in more than 100 countries.” Yet when you hear his name spoken by pundits, politicians — even by presidents — more often than not it is dripping with bile.

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MONTAGE OF MEDIA OUTLETS: Puppet master George Soros. George Soros. George Soros. Liberal left wing billionaire George Soros. George Soros. Soros. George Soros.

AMT: Soros is an especially favorite target of the right wing conspiracy theorist radio host Alex Jones.

SOUNDCLIP

ALEX JONES: Soros wants to do one thing, overthrow countries, destroy good economies, bankrupt people, have them as poor and stoned out of their minds with junkies and needles laying everywhere. Because when you are a demon that makes him feel good when he glides around amongst the filth and skid row. When he flies over in his private jet and looks down at rotting cities.

AMT: Well, any discussion of George Soros probably begins with separating the man from the myths surrounding him. And that's a very real issue right now in Mr. Soros native Hungary. The philanthropist’s face has been plastered on posters across Hungary promoting a so-called ‘Stop Soros Law’ because Hungary's newly elected prime minister Viktor Orbán is planning a legislative crackdown against George Soros and his work. Here as Prime Minister Orbán speaking about it on Hungarian state radio.

SOUNDCLIP

VIKTOR ORBAN: There is only one important element of Hungarian public life that is not transparent and that is the Soros-led mafia-like network and a so-called NGO agents like organizations.

AMT: Well, my first guest has been tracking how George Soros is viewed in North America and in Eastern Europe. Emily Tamkin is a staff writer for Foreign Policy Magazine. She joins us from Washington D.C. Hello.

EMILY TAMKIN: Hello. Thank you for having me.

AMT: Well, let's talk about this and lets start in Hungary. Why does Prime Minister Orban want to stop George Soros?

EMILY TAMKIN: That's an excellent question because it's sort of the one that we're all asking, right. What is his fixation with this man in his late 80s who's given millions and millions of dollars to help the people in, that is Orban’s own country, and who in fact once gave or Orban himself a grant to go to Oxford. And the answer is that it isn't, in my opinion, really about Soros at all — or it is and it isn't. But by that what I mean is that Orban has used this man and built him up as a sort of vilified ghost to cover up for his own corruption, to promote his own agenda and to do all that without building up any of the political opposition in Hungary, right. Because if you were to say well it's the opposition party that wants to bring in migrants, or that is trying to corrupt our society, or that's trying to make us be not Christian or any of these things, he would be he would be putting the opposition on the same level as himself. With Soros he doesn't that. He just has the perfect enemy who is not actually in Hungarian politics to fight back.

AMT: What is the Soros law that's being proposed? What does he want to do?

EMILY TAMKIN: I mean, he essentially has tried to — the ‘Stop Soros’ campaign is bigger than any one law. But the idea is sort of twofold. One: The idea of stopping Soros means stopping migrants, but he also is trying to stop foreign funding of NGOs, not dissimilar to what Russia did several years ago. These NGOs in Hungary, they do take money from Soros funding, but that's because their own government doesn't fund them and they're trying to do work like help asylum seekers or like track corruption in their own country. And actually today, the Open Society Foundation announced that it was going to be moving its Budapest office to Berlin, which I believe speaks to the extent to which they feel attacked by the Hungarian government.

AMT: That's interesting. Now, we did contact the Hungarian government through its embassy in Ottawa and it sent us this statement I'm going to read it to you in part here. This is the quote “The terrorist attacks that have been committed in Europe in recent years have made it clear there is a strong link between migration and the increasing terror threat in our continent. During the past two and a half years 28 terror attacks have been committed in Europe, which claimed 330 innocent lives and injured over 1,300 people. Some of the terrorists have used the current wave of migration to get into Europe. The other part of the radical attackers have arrived earlier to the continent. They had not accepted the European way of life and their social integration became a failure.” End quote. The statement goes on to say the new law would prevent all activities that facilitate illegal entry of migrants into Hungary as a matter of national security. So how much of the vilification of George Soros is hovering around that anti-immigrant sentiment?

EMILY TAMKIN: I think that the anti-immigrant sentiment has been a convenient vehicle for the anti-Soros. I mean, the two have sort of conveniently gone together. But it's important to remember that Hungary has taken in zero migrants, right. So this idea that Hungary is flooded with migrants and the threat of migration is simply not true. Soros is not the only one who has called on the Hungarian government to take in some number of migrants. The European Union in Brussels has done that as well. Though the Hungary's government's conflated the two, that's not realistic, Soros is not an MEP. And they can say — I don't mean to suggest that no crime has been associated with asylum seekers and refugees and migrants, but crime is down in Germany. So if we're going to talk about ‘Oh, we want to protect our say and its values,’ I think we should be we should be more specific about what that means. I would also just say that because there isn't actually migration in Hungary it has been suggested to me by people I've spoken to, and I believe it's been suggested by Mr. Soros himself, that this anti-migrant anti-Soros sentiment is actually a cover up for — I mean it’s two things. One is sort of a cover for Orban’s own and the European Union's own, failures to support the Hungarian economy in the way they suggested they would, number one. Number two: A cover for the government or the prime minister's own personal corruption.

AMT: Now there are more than 100 open society foundations around the world. How does talk of George Soros change from country to country?

EMILY TAMKIN: It's interesting, he is sort of the — I mean he's perfect in this way, because whatever you — I like to think of that mirror in Harry Potter where whenever you looked at it you saw the thing that you desired most. He's like that but with the thing that you revile most. So in Hungary he's this Jewish person who left and he made his money and now he's turned against Hungary. Whereas in Slovakia and Romania, he's the Hungarian who for sort of nationalist reasons is less accepted there. If you go to Israel well, he's a Jewish person who's sort of too pro-Palestinian for the current government’s liking. And so on and so forth, you can always find some part of him to rally your base around.

AMT: Of course, he is someone who funded some of the democratic movements, notably Georgia, Ukraine.

EMILY TAMKIN: Well he played a part in the Rose Revolution. I think to say that he personally financed the colour revolutions is to take away from what the people themselves there actually did, which he himself said in Georgia, that his own role had been overstated. It's not that he has never played a role — here in the United States he's backed Democratic candidates but that's not the same thing as trying to overthrow countries. And I think that we need to be careful about conflating the two.

AMT: And, you know, I mean he was instrumental in funding NGOs and opening up countries in the eastern bloc to new universities after the fall of communism. He's done a lot of that funding. So when the rhetoric around his philanthropy become negative? For a long time he was championed.

EMILY TAMKIN: Absolutely. And this is what I think is really interesting. In the 90s when he was truly everywhere, with some exceptions, you know I mentioned Slovakia, with some exceptions he was very well regarded. And it was only after these countries became EU members and some of the rose coloured glasses started to are started to turn just back to regular old glass and people saw that oh this path that we were on it is not going to magically fix all our problems. And also after the financial crisis — and interestingly also after Open Society changed its funding model for this part of the world, so actually they stepped their presence back a bit from Central Eastern Europe. It was only after that in about 2010 when Orban came back to power after the financial crisis. So he comes back to power, Prime Minister Robert Fico comes back in Slovakia, in 2015 the right wing party in Poland comes back. So it wasn't actually when Soros was at his most present in the region that he was built up as the sort of all powerful villain. It was later after disillusionment had set in, after the financial crisis and after, by the way, these leaders came to power and turned around and said ‘Oh, actually people are going to become disillusioned with us too unless we give them an illusion of an enemy elsewhere.’

AMT: OK, Emily Tamkin, that's an important perspective. Thank you for speaking with me today.

EMILY TAMKIN: Thank you.

AMT: That's Emily Tamkin, she's a staff writer for Foreign Policy Magazine. She joined us from Washington D.C. Anna Porter is in our Toronto studio with me. She was the co-founder of Key Porter Books. She's the author of a book all about George Soros and his efforts to reshape the world. That book is called Buying a Better World: George Soros and Billionaire Philanthropy. Hello Anna Porter.

ANNA PORTER: Hello.

AMT: Why do you think George Soros is such a controversial, polarizing figure?

ANNA PORTER: He stands for liberal democratic values. And that in itself is no longer as popular as it used to be. He is also a useful enemy because he is not present. And it’s always easier to cry foul against an enemy who is not there. And as the previous speaker said, he certainly hasn't been physically there in Poland, Slovakia, the Czech Republic Hungary etc. or in the Balkans particularly, himself. So that makes him a very useful enemy. For Mr. Orban to run an entire election campaign on the anti-Soros ticket is astounding. I can’t remember, from my reading of history, when an incumbent government was able to run a re-election campaign against a party that doesn't exist.

AMT: Well, just before we came in here you showed me the latest ad against in Hungary and a picture of him. What stands out for you in the ads against him?

ANNA PORTER: One thing that stands out for me in the ads against him is that the picture of him used in these ads could have been perfectly well displayed in the old anti-Jewish rag Der Stürmer in the Nazi German period. He's represented as the quintessential Jew, an internationalist. In fact, a lot of the verbiage attacking him in, not just Hungary, but also in Poland, in the Czech Republic and in Slovakia, really has used tropes from the past.

AMT: You have looked at the billions of dollars he has given to various NGOS and other organizations. What impact has his philanthropy had on the world?

ANNA PORTER: Alas, for Mr. Soros, not a whole lot of, which really — when I started writing the book I began to, you know, I got interested in him because of all the good that he had done in eastern and central Europe. And so, you know, in terms of good, Russian scientists at the change of government, with the dawn of the new era, when funding dried up, he arguably, and I believe this from doing the research for the book, he saved their lives by making money available. He'd certainly saved a lot of the Polish resistance fighters during the time when they couldn't get food. So all of these good things he did back then. But unfortunately, as it turns out, if you look at the effect he’s had around the world, his foundations and the, I think it's now $16 billion he's spent, well his foundations have spent, there isn't a whole lot to show for it. I mean, ‘Im watching what's going to happen with Brexit because he has dedicated a great deal of money. And very openly, I mean, his efforts are always open. It’s not difficult to find out what his foundations are up to. But he has dedicated, I think, millions of dollars.

AMT: You're saying he hasn't had an impact on the areas he's trying to put money into for change?

ANNA PORTER: No. He did have an impact in Sarajevo by getting water in when people couldn’t get water or had to line up for water and were shot but now, nothing.

AMT: Wider politics? Hungarian politics?

ANNA PORTER: No effect.

AMT: Orban got in.

ANNA PORTER: Absolutely, and was re-elected with a sweeping majority and look at what's happened in Poland.

AMT: So why do you think that he is being blamed for having this influence, if in fact, he's not stopping those governments? Where's the disconnect?

ANNA PORTER: Well, he's a useful tool. He is viewed as useful and, you know, I keep thinking there is going to be something. When I finished writing the book, I ended the book with, ironically the one thing he didn't want. He didn't want a building, but ironically his most successful effort is Central European University in Budapest. Well, it now looks like Mr. Orban’s government trying to shut down the university and the Mr. Ignatieff is looking for a new home for the university.

AMT: Because again, that's part of the anti-Soros movement.

ANNA PORTER: Part of the anti-Soros.

AMT: You interviewed him for your book. What did you think of him?

ANNA PORTER: I didn't find him particularly warm. He was fascinating. He is intellectually challenging. I found his ideas on reflexivity, a subject on which he has gone on and on and on endlessly, to be over-complicated and overly related to Heisenberg again other philosophies. Whereas, in fact, it could be quite simply state. And, you know, he loves to be viewed as a philosopher, although he did say to me and I believe he said this publicly elsewhere, that he views himself as a failed philosopher because as a philosopher he hasn't had the effect he had hoped to have.

AMT: And so his philanthropy differs a lot from other billionaires. What would be the main difference in your view?

ANNA PORTER: He's internationally engaged with the politics of the world everywhere — as much in Myanmar as in Bosnia. And this is not, I mean, the Koch brothers who are usually the people viewed as on the one hand you've got the Koch brothers on the other hand you have George Soros, well the Koch brothers really are active only in the United States.

AMT: And we don't know what they’re funding, actually.

ANNA PORTER: Well we do know some of what they're funding, but they're not as open as George Soros.

AMT: We have to leave it there. Anna Porter, thank you. Anna Porter co-founder of Key Porter Books, writer and author of the book Buying a Better World: George Soros and Billionaire Philanthropy. She joined me in our Toronto studio.

SOUNDCLIP

TUCKER CARLSON: Billionaire and far-left patron George Soros, was in Davos last week, of course. He was talking. He called the big tech companies like Google and Facebook a menace to society. He's right about that. But then he kept going. He said the current administration in Washington is not just bad for the country, it's an existential threat to civilization itself, civilization itself. Steve Hilton hosts the Next Revolution here on FOX 9.

STEVE HILTON: The things he said were so offensive to me I can get away with it because I, like George Soros, am a Hungarian, so I can call him a Hungarian hypocrite. Not just for the fact that he criticizes the tech companies while investing in them. He went on about gambling while back in the UK where I got my start in politics, he made his billions gambling in the foreign exchange markets, which crashed the economy and caused untold misery for millions of people. But when it comes to this question of the Open Society that he argues Donald Trump is wrecking, he really should know better, because he and I share experience of that. Communism in Hungary, that's a real attack on the Open Society.

AMT: Okay, well that's an exchange from earlier this year on the Fox network between host Tucker Carlson and Steve Hilton, the attacks on George Soros keep on coming. So there's one more person going up from on the topic of George Soros it’s someone who has worked with him for more than a decade. Laura Silber is chief communications officer at George Soros’ Open Society Foundations and she joins us from New York City. Hello.

LAURA SILBER: Hi there.

AMT: Well, where do we start? He's called the demon, ineffective, a hypocrite. Who is George Soros to you?

LAURA SILBER: George Soros is someone who believes in the rule of law, human rights and justice. And he's on the side of those who don't have natural champions. He's against the interests of autocrats, oligarchs and corrupt politicians. So he didn't set out to be popular. George is someone who has really chosen to champion those who face discrimination and who are sometimes denied their rights.

AMT: And as you listen to that exchange on Fox News and we see more of that amongst American talk shows. Where is that coming from?

LAURA SILBER: You know, I think it's all part of the trend of the rise of ‘fake news’ and the conspiracy theories. And politicians, whether it's Donald Trump in America or Prime Minister Orban in Hungary, they feed off of conspiracy stories and they fuel them. And these fictional reports that are circulating through the Internet, people don't know what to believe and I think they find fodder amongst people who were looking for something and the politicians use them. They use it to gain power and to really distract voters and people from the real issues, whether it’s an inability to help unemployment or provide education for people in Hungary. I think it's things that they're trying to distract people from the real issues at hand.

AMT: How do you respond to the Hungarian government is doing with this proposed crackdown on his work that will affect the university and the NGOs?

LAURA SILBER: Well, in terms of the foundations, we've made the decision to move our administrative offices to Berlin where the climate will be more welcoming. Frankly, the proposed packet of laws, the anti-Soros legislation, it's made our work impossible. And what we're doing there we will continue to help whether it’s a civil society in Hungary or human rights in Hungary or things such as arts and culture and other projects that benefit the Hungarian people — we will continue there but we won't continue to have an administrator presence in Hungary.

AMT: Why did George Soros start the Open Society Foundations?

LAURA SILBER: He's started it about a belief of coming out of the Holocaust the child, experiencing what it was like to be targeted because of who he was. He was forced to go in hiding during World War II. He then escaped from communism at the end of World War II. So he understood what it was like to live in a regime of totalitarianism. And he believed that it was his duty to somehow help these people. And he frankly, thought of an idea following the philosophy of Karl Popper of Open Society, and that's the belief that no one has the monopoly on the truth. So George Soros is very open to other ideas as long as it contains respect and tolerance for others.

AMT: So what are some of the examples of the work he's most proud of?

LAURA SILBER: I think he would be proud of the work of helping, whether it’s helping the Maasai get rights to land in Kenya or whether it's giving photocopiers so that people could read banned literature in Hungary in the 1980s, giving milk to schoolchildren when the government was unable to provide in the 1990s in Hungary. He has a long legacy of concrete humanitarian aid, as well as to help the rule of law, education, public health and generally improve the lives of people — but of all people, not just the people that are particular authoritarian regime wants to help.

AMT: He's turning 88 this summer, am I right?

LAURA SILBER: That's right.

AMT: What do you think his legacy will be?

LAURA SILBER: I think his legacy will be one of someone who has generously given billions of dollars to helping improve the lives of people. I think the politics is something that’s short term. The arc of history is long. The people who are currently in power, they won’t be in power in the sense of able to live off ‘fake news’ and conspiracies. And I think will see a legacy that shows his achievements and he himself knows he's in it for the long haul. He believes in causes. It's not about metrics. It's not about the immediate wins. It's about the long haul of helping human rights, justice, fight corruption. I think that'll be his legacy.

AMT: Okay, well Laura Silber, thank you for your perspective.

LAURA SILBER: Thank you.

AMT: That's Laura Silber she's chief communications officer at George Soros’ Open Society Foundations. She's also an adjunct professor of communications at Columbia University's School of International and Public Affairs. She joined us from New York City. That's our program for today. Stay with Radio 1 for q. British musician James Bay is on the show. We’re going to end today’s program by hearing from George Soros reflecting on what's helped make him who he is. It goes back, he says, to his childhood in Nazi occupied Budapest. Here he is reflecting on advice he received from his father, a prominent Budapest attorney, who had lived through the Russian Revolution. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thank you for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

GEORGE SOROS: When Germans came in he said this is a lawless occupation. The normal rules don’t apply. You have to forget out how you behave in normal society. This is an abnormal situation. The main lesson that I learnt during the war is to expect the unexpected. The situations that you get into are so out of context with what you have grown up with that you have to examine the framework in which you think. And then you realise that we all work with preconceived ideas and those ideas don't necessarily correspond to reality. So there is this gap between perception and reality and that's the gap that I have really kind of explored and also exploited.

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May 15, 2018 episode transcript

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