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The Current Transcript for May 4, 2018

Host: Piya Chattopadhyay

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

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Our technology, applied with the energy, the passion of the citizens of Toronto, will make this thing incredibly successful.

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: That's Eric Schmidt the former executive chairman of Google and its parent company Alphabet Inc. And that thing he's talking about is a new community planned for Canada's largest city, described as a sort of super connected neighborhood of the future and it's elements of design could be coming soon to a city near you. But as the planning goes on questions keep coming up about what being in this neighborhood could mean bring your personal information and balancing it with the need for privacy. We'll be asking about that in just a few moments. And then:

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Awesome. Oh well.

Like totally freak me out I mean right on.

Sure sure. Number one.

PC: They've been on the sidelines of sports matches for decades and some would say cheerleaders have gone out to board a support of their own. But new revelations about the way one NFL team treated their squad, pimping them out, in the words of one cheerleader are once again raising the debate about whether it's time to retire or cheerleaders from professional sports. We'll talk about that in half an hour. And remember when Marty McFly wheeled on an electric guitar and back to the future.

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[Sound: Electric guitar]

I can't guess you guys are ready for that yet, but your kids are going to love it.

PC: If you will but it turns out the kids these days aren't picking up the electric guitar the way they used to which may explain in part why the company that made Marty McFly is a classic axe - Gibson Guitars - has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Coming up in an hour of worth taking the pulse of the electric guitar and asking whether music has moved on from the performer lead instrument. Hi I'm Piya Chattopadhyay and this is the Friday edition of The Current.

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You can't opt out of public space, says critic of Toronto's proposed 'smart neighbourhood'

Guests: Helen Burstyn, Rit Aggarwala, Bianca Wiley

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VOICE 1: Wawterfront Toronto and sidewalk labs are partnering to create a new kind of urban community on the waterfront.

VOICE 2: I like the fact that sidewalk is bringing a different approach that includes both planning and process and community and technology together, rethinking how we build cities in the 21st century.

VOICE 3: We have an opportunity to fundamentally redefine what urban life can actually be.

PC: Well there are definitely high hopes for what a new community on Toronto's waterfront, designed by a Google sister company, will eventually look like as you heard there in that promotional video. But as a public consultation in the city last night confirmed, there also remains serious concerns. Sidewalk Labs was given the mandate six months ago to design what what's being billed as an urban community built from the internet up. Key side as it's known is intended to be "a model of a city built for the rest of the century" and people across our country and the world are watching this model city closely with special attention to how would handle the data and privacy concerns. Bianca Wiley is the co-founder of Tech Reset Canada. It is an advocacy group for maximizing the public good in innovation. She's also a senior fellow at the Center for International Governance Innovation in their global economy program. She is with me here in our Toronto studio. Hi.

BIANCA WILEY: Hi. Good morning.

PC: So when you hear that promotional video from Sidewalk Labs what are you thinking about?

BIANCA WILEY: I am thinking about how did we get here and say this is a thing that we want to do, as people, as residents? So for me there's a lot of concerns with this. But probably the number one is process because our policies and our laws are not ready for this kind of urban planning that's really infused with technology. And so that's what I think first of all. I think we should have policies and laws that we've all come together in a democratic way to create and then we can do stuff like this. And so we're doing this together with a vendor which for me is starting to raise several issues. I know we're talking a lot about data but I think that is a fundamental thing here. Who's driving the agenda? Is this stuff that we want?

PC: Because just to point out this is a government and private vendor initiative in Toronto. There's three levels of government along with Google's parent company. So at this point, and we're still in the planning stages, what do we know about the nuts and bolts of this project? And what does this neighborhood on Lake Ontario going to look like for those who will eventually live there, visit there, etc.?

BIANCA WILEY: We know very little. We know what we heard in this, in what you played in terms of you know it will be great neighborhood of the future. Like a lot of loose sort of terms and ideas, innovation, you hear a lot. But in terms of what that would look like on the ground it's unclear for the most part. I mean there are centers that's an idea collecting data to drive innovations maybe to make things safer, more sustainable. I mean there's a lot of that stuff being shopped around. But details about them aren't being provided.

PC: It is being sold as a community for the future. It plans to have affordable housing and other things that, not only this city, but other cities who may later on adopt a neighborhood like this. That is the promise that this is going to be like where we all need to go collectively. This is a city of the future. And you're saying what to that? That we just don't know enough about this?

BIANCA WILEY: This matters for everyone in Canada to listen to and say 'Are we now building affordable housing because we're lacking data? Is that the problem or is it a political problem and a funding problem?' I think we I think we need to talk about it every time something comes up and we see we need data for this, we say is that the issue or is it a political will issue?

PC: Okay so some people are saying what are you talking about? Data in my neighborhood in a company collecting it. So what are your concerns?

BIANCA WILEY: My concerns are first of all how this is framed as though this is inevitable. It's the future. Now we just collect it all over the place. That's essentially a surveillance state which I don't think we've had that discussion as a nation around what degree of the stuff do we even want to do? Why do we even want to collect? There are people who would say don't collect data, and I don’t want to be tracked. And this is public space. We can talk about Facebook we can talk about Fidbits we can talk about you know your cellphone. Those are decisions that you as an individual can opt in to and you can opt out. We're talking about public space and you can opt out of public space.

PC: So we're talking about me walking down the street this probably neighborhood and I don't have a cellphone. What data can it collect?

BIANCA WILEY: Collect that- If you think about aggregate data so it may not be collecting that you were there, but it is collecting patterns of people whether it's with a camera or someone crossing the street. There is a lot of stuff also related to environmental data, regarding you know whether it's pollution or rainfall. It's not all human but I think the stuff that tracks and collects your patterns and you know what human beings do, commoditizing that, turning that into data that you hauled. It doesn't matter if it's me or you or if you just aggregate. It's our video that has people in this city. So that as a default should be ours. So now is this going to be used and used in a product way? And what Sidewalk has been saying is we're not selling it. You know we're selling your data. We are not advertising against it. That's not what people are asking. It's like what are you doing with this? Because here we go into sort of public service delivery. Are you selling products to help improve are these other systems? You are then using this as an input.

PC: How well is - because again this is there is government involvement in this neighborhood that is being planned. How equipped is Canadian law to deal with your concerns about data collection and privacy? You're shaking your head.

BIANCA WILEY: It is bad. It's been bad for more than 10 years and you've had legal scholars. You've had scholars and activists. You've had advocates asking the federal government to work both the Privacy Act, which is the act that oversees government data. And PIPITA, which is the act that oversees commercial collection of data visas. This was bad already and now it's just escalating and accelerating and it's not a good situation to be in now that there's this time pressure. But I think the other thing that's really important in terms of both of those legal frameworks, look at your data as an individual. And this thing that we need to talk about is what is privacy as a public good? What is the collective degree of privacy that we want to have? Not about me or you about all of us together inner city. What are things that we don't want tracked regardless of whether they're anonymous or in aggregate? So that is a whole other- you know and that is hard because that's social norms, that's ethics. So those are long hard conversations. So when we feel that this time line is short, that's why this stuff is hard rate. It's not just fixing those acts as they are. There's entirely new concepts to think about.

PC: Just briefly. Many say this is going to be good for the city. They're building a new kind of neighborhood one that you know puts us in a situation for the future. It's good for economic development it's good for innovation. What do you say to that?

BIANCA WILEY: As a technologist. There are tons of opportunities. The thing is they don't have to involve tracking in commodifying human behaviour. You can do lots of stuff with environmental data. You can also think in Canada, across Canada, primary industries are a strength. So think about agricultural technology, think about clean tech, think about all these places that all that stuff ends up back in the city. If you improve agriculture agricultural people in cities eat. You know they live because of farmers. So it's just thinking about this in a broader sense. Smart cities as a marketing term came from technology. We need to turn this around and say we're in charge of our tech. It has to do the things we need. So that's lot of opportunity all we need to define what we want from it.

PC: Bianca Wiley thank you. Bianca Wiley is the co-founder of Tech Resect Canada, an organization focused on public policy and technology. She's also the senior fellow at C.G. in their Global Economy Program and the head of Open Data Institute of Toronto. It is a non-profit that works on data literacy and public education. Rit Aggarwala has been listening in. He is the head of urban systems at Sidewalk Labs, the company in charge at the key side project and which is owned by Google's parent company Alphabet. He spoke in Toronto at a public consultation yesterday. Rit, hello.

RIT AGGARWALA: Good morning.

PC: So when you hear the concerns raised by Bianca Whiley, which echoes other people’s concerns about the way data will be used in a key side project by Sidewalk Labs, what do you say to that?

RIT AGGARWALA: Anything to collecting data, specially anything that could be traced back to an individual is a critical concern to make sure that you do it as well as possible only for the right reasons with transparency and consent. And you make sure that that data is secured and protected and deleted as soon as feasible.

PC: So how will the data people living in this area walking through the area being used?

RIT AGGARWALA: Were still planning all of that and the only thing that I would point out is we are talking about this in the abstract, because we are at the very beginning of what is at the end of the day going to be a long process. You know there is a sense I think that there are plans somewhere in secret, but there aren’t. The whole thing we are working with here is to come up with a plan, a plan that will effectively be a proposal to the three government board, that is the board of Waterfront Toronto. Inevitably there are going to be, a component of it at least, that is going to have to go for review by various levels of government. So I think the most important thing to recognize is just how [unintelligible] all of this is even like work. We started work in earnest over a company on the Q side sight only a couple of months ago. So I sometimes feel that concerns we have a plan for, or believe that we have a plan for how long is going to be used it's just not right. This is intended to come up with something where Sidewalk Labs, jointly with Waterfront Toronto, will say to the people of the city here's a concept for how we get a great new neighbourhood with lots of things that could improve urban life in the city...

PC: But here's the thing you're a tech company and I appreciate that you might not have a final plan, but you certainly didn't go to the three levels ago and say we want to do this thing but we have no idea what we want to do, we have no idea what kind of day we might want to collect. So just in the broadest sense what are you looking for, and what are you looking at? Give people who say we just don't know anything some sands of where this is headed from where you stand.

RIT AGGARWALA: The management of urban life acquires information whether it's where the trains are and whether they are running on time, whether it's raining today or sunny, hot or cold, whether the sewer system is now running towards capacity or under capacity? How many people are going to be given part of the city at a given time of day? Those are all data questions whether city government or the transit agency or the water system, whatever, they all try to have as much information as possible so they can make the city better. So the idea that this is somehow new, that we are ou're creating a new concept for the collection or the use for data, I think that's a fundamentally wrong. And the idea that environmental data is somehow threatening, or data about aggregate numbers of people in a given place. I think we run the risk of getting overly sensitive about all this because not all data is actually dangerous or a violation. The data we have to be worried about is that can be traced back to an individual. But to collect information for example on how often people are walking down the sidewalk on a given street. That's really important information to city planners who were thinking about what's the relative allocation of space between a sidewalk, the biplane.

PC: And that's exactly the point you're making, that it is okay for our city planners, our governments are maybe not everything, okay, but a lot of people are saying well look it's one thing to have governments harness this information. Indeed it's quite another to give a private company like yours to do it. You say what?

RIT AGGARWALA: There are a lot of circumstances in which private entities are understanding that from lots of different views, including in the public well whether it's security camera which have a defined purpose, and that I think is an interesting point. We are accustomed to the idea that a private property might have a security camera that is looking outside into the sidewalk. As long as that is not used for surveillance as much as it is just for protection, that is a defined use. I think this is the same kind of thing. The question of whether companies can understand what traffic patterns are and make that information available to planners because the planners are going to be able to understand it themselves. There are a lot of companies that do this. Sidewalks Lab is not actually currently in that business although it is one of the kinds of things we might want to do at some point, but lots of government agencies are in fact buying data from companies to inform their planning decisions because they have the infrastructure to collect all of it.

PC: Okay we're going to have to leave it there with you but I'm sure we'll talk again. Thank you. Rit Aggarwala is the head of urban systems at Sidewalk Labs. He was in Toronto. Waterfront Toronto is the tried government organization that has selected Sidewalk Labs to create the key side project. Helen Burstyn is the chair of Waterfront Toronto's board of directors and she too is in Toronto. Hello.

HELEN BURSTYN: Hello.

PC: Let's begin with what benefits you think this project could bring to Canada's largest city and others if they should unfold there.

HELEN BURSTYN: Sure well we selected Sidewalk Labs as our preferred development partner because they brought so much innovation and so many new and good things to a potentially new and exciting smart city neighborhood. So for instance, we're looking at more affordable housing and how that can be enabled so that people can work closer to home and age in place. We're looking at reducing carbon emissions for instance and becoming a magnet for investment and jobs. We wanted a development partner that could bring a lot of this new thinking and new city, smart city, thinking to a urban setting which is on the waterfront of Toronto. So Sidewalk Labs met the bill and were working with them to create an agreement that will allow us to move forward. But again is subject to approval by all levels of government who are the shareholders and by Toronto.

PC: What do you know at this point about, not the actual physical infrastructure of buildings, but about this concern that we heard from our first guest about what else this neighborhood might be doing in terms of a collection of data? What do you know about that?

HELEN BURSTYN: Well I understand what Bianca is saying and what others are saying and worrying about when it comes to data but this is not about data alone. This is an opportunity to use data selectively and appropriately to enable the creation of a very smart neighborhood in a very smart city. I know that there are concerns and we hear them and we want to respect them and address them about the use of that data, the privacy. The people can be guaranteed about anything personal and Rit alluded to that as well. You know data is necessary to be collected and to be used very carefully for how we inform making a smarter and better city. You know it can be used to improve the quality of life as opposed to being used for surveillance and nefarious purposes. In cities it can improve that quality of life in a way that really matters. You know 80 percent of Canadians live in cities. So we really need to get this right and were very mindful of that.

PC: So one of the other concerns is the transparency piece of this and the deputy mayor of Toronto Denzil Minnan-Wong has been talking about this. His question, and others, is why is this framework agreement about this project not been made public?

HELEN BURSTYN: Yet and a lot of people have asked and all I can say is that anything that gets built on the waterfront or elsewhere is subject to the city of Toronto development approval process inside of Toronto, and this relationship and agreement is no exception. So they said originally they were happy to release the agreement with Waterfronts Toronto to make that public but they will also say that they respect the reasons for not releasing it yet.

PC: And what are those reasons?

HELEN BURSTYN: Well we didn't want to release it earlier because there are commercially sensitive terms that need to be kept confidential for good reason. It allows Waterfront Toronto to maintain maximum negotiating leverage and capability so that when we negotiate the next deal with the next developer, we will also respect that need for our commercial sensitivity and confidentiality. I mean there is no prior Waterfront Toronto deal. We've had so many of them with developers. None of those to date have been made public for the same reason. So this is not an exception. This is the rule. And also we are respecting the concerns and the will of our shareholders the three levels of government as well as the public.

PC: We heard from Rit Aggarwala who says we're just at the beginning of this process like that the grand plan may be kind of generally there in the loosest of ways, but we're going to consult with the public and this is a cooperative effort. So when do you think the public might get more details on the specifics of the Sidewalk Toronto project, especially when it comes to the concerns that we've heard being raised; the transparency piece, the data collection piece, the government's pieces.

HELEN BURSTYN: We are working right now on this and what's called a planned development agreement and that will spell out who gets wired and identified who for instance the master developer will be or maybe some combination of the two parties. And we're hoping, we're tracking for June or July that may be not what we said in the beginning- but you don't know how long. The rhythm of the deal takes a while and it is somewhat unpredictable. There is still much to be discussed and negotiated and we want to get this right so we don’t want a rush it.

PC: Just briefly Helen Burstyn, for people who have concerns about the future of this project in Toronto and others that might come out in other cities eventually, what do you say to them?

HELEN BURSTYN: I say we have an incredibly exciting opportunity here that we will review thoughtfully with our preferred planning partner Sidewalk Labs and we will come up with something that meets the interest, the best interest, of the public and the shareholders of Toronto's Waterfront and and beyond.

PC: Hellen Burstyn will leave it there. Thank you very much.

HELEN BURSTYN: Thank you, Piya. Helen Burstyn is the chair of Waterfront Toronto's board of directors and she was in Toronto. All right the CBC News is next. And then we will bring you the latest on record flooding in New Brunswick and a scandal this New York Times report on the Washington D.C. NFL teams cheerleading squad is once again raising questions about whether cheerleaders should be permanently sidelined from professional sports. We will hear about both of those things coming up. I am Piya Chattopadhyay. You're listening to the Friday edition of The Current and we're back in just a bit.

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Record flooding hits New Brunswick but some are hesitant to leave

Guest: Kayla Hounsell

PC: Hi I'm Piya Chattopadhyay and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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PC: Still to come, decade after decade the electric guitar was the very sound of youth; rebellious, unbridled, loud and in your face. But times change and looming bankruptcy of long time guitar maker Gibson may be sounding the death knell of the once mighty axe. We'll hear from musicians on both sides of the six string divide in half an hour. But first a flood for the ages.

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PC: Right now in southern New Brunswick, the flooding situation is being described as the worst in 80 years. The province has called in the Coast Guard for help. And yet the waters are still rising with more record levels expected in the next few days. The premier Brian Gallant says officials are grappling with: "A long and complex event". Evacuations are continuing along the base of the St. John River. And yesterday St. John Major Don Darling had a stark warning for residents of some areas.

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Were at record breaking levels now as you know. It's just going to keep on coming. So are the message is to be blunt I would say get out and stay out and heed the warnings here that are happening.

PC: Kayla Hounsell is CBC's national reporter in the Maritimes and we reached her in St. John New Brunswick. Hello

KAYLA HOUNSELL: Good morning Piya.

PC: How high is the water in the area where you are?

KAYLA HOUNSELL: Well frankly the water is high and getting higher. Flood stage here in St. John is considered four point two metres. And today it has reached 5.5 metres. Now this was forecast there was more rain last night so it was anticipated that the river would swell to 5.5 today. But to give you a sense of what that means in the context of past floods here, folks here in this area talk about two major floods and they are in 2008 and in 1973. In 1973 was the record at that point at the St. John River here in this area hit 5.4 meters. So again today we have hit 5.5 so we have surpassed that record flooding and it is projected to hit 5.9 meters by Monday.

PC: So what are people saying John saying? Are they concerned? The politicians the governments are clearly saying this is very serious. What are you hearing?

KAYLA HOUNSELL: .Well I think people are definitely concerned it's affecting some in some areas more than others. Of course I think people are definitely following and paying attention to what the politicians and emergency management officials are saying. Many are evacuating but it's important to note that many are not. And I have spent some time in a number of communities in the area here over the past week now. And you know I think people have a variety of reasons. Some don't want to leave because they have animals, livestock. Some can't bear to leave their homes. I met one woman yesterday and she grew up in the home that she now lives in. And I think they feel that they have to stay at least stay close so they can keep an eye on their properties. But still others feel that while there's certainly a risk to their property there is no risk to their safety. So you know one woman told me it's just our basement we know the water is going to enter our basement but we don't think it's going to enter the first floor of our home. Others have told me, well my home is on the other side of the road. So not right on the river, we are not at direct risk of water. What's important and what I think emergency management officials are trying to get across is that many of the roads are no longer passable. And so that is presenting a safety risk even if specific home is not being threatened by water when people cannot get into and out of communities.

PC: Right. So if the waters get higher the roads may be washed out are not available travel for someone to get out who has decided to stay at this point.

KAYLA HOUNSELL: Exactly.

PC: So we know that the Trans Canada Highway is one of those roads. It's closed down I think last night between Moncton and Fredericton which is a main artery of course in New Brunswick. What does this mean for the people of New Brunswick?

KAYLA HOUNSELL: That's a tough one so that stretch of highway closed at 7:00 p.m. local time last night. It could be closed for several days. Officials are certainly saying middle of next week but really no one knows how long it will be. So it means that vehicles have to take a route through the city of St. John's or the long way around if you will. It is a busy stretch of highway, between 10 and 12000 vehicles traveling there daily. So certainly quite a few people impacted and it will also delay the flow of goods. Again people have to take the long way around.

PC: And of course we know there are areas that company in New Brunswick. So what's happening with the very boats? How are they affected by the flood?

KAYLA HOUNSELL: Well interesting that there are some underwater that even boats are affected rate. So I spent some time yesterday on the Kingston peninsula and it's comprised of a number of rural community that normally serviced by five ferries at different points around the peninsula. Right now they're down to two. They are servicing only one point. So the issue is that the water is so high that the ferry boat cannot lower their right arm to the point on the road to let vehicles off. And most of them were flooded before anybody could get to them. At this point that they say is still servicing the ferry we took yesterday. Residents have been able to build up a ramp using sand which is essentially elevated the roads so that the ferry can come in, as I say put it's rammed down and let the cars off.

PC: What's behind all this flooding? Why is the flooding so bad this year?

KAYLA HOUNSELL: It's a combination of things. I think the first is that there has been a whole lot of snow up north here in northern New Brunswick. I actually spent some time in Bathhurst just a few weeks ago working on an unrelated story and the amount of snow up there is stunning. I am a Newfound Lander. I am not usually astounded by snow amounts but it really was quite incredible to see how much snow they have out there this year. On top of that we're seeing quite high temperatures here. So that snow is melting and it's melting very fast. On top of that, we have seen very heavy rainfall. So all of these things combined are making that snow melt. It's got to go somewhere and it's coming down river and it's making the river swell.

PC: So the mayors and the Premier are saying if you're told to get out you should probably get out. It's not a mandatory evacuation but the good guidance is please leave before asking you to leave. What are they saying about the next couple of days in terms of how bad the situation could get? What are officials predict predicting for the next couple of days?

KAYLA HOUNSELL: Well frankly it's going to get much worse. There is more rain in the forecast. There are higher temperatures in the forecast and we know they're still quite a snowpack to melt up north. So the river is expected to rise not cresting until Sunday, which means we have not seen the worst of this yet. But I think the real message is that we have now broken records. We are truly in an unprecedented zone so nobody knows where this water is going to go. It is being pushed into areas that no one has seen before. So it's unpredictable. They can compare to past floods and you know say perhaps we know it's going to go on this road or that road. So really they're just telling people to brace for this and to heed the warnings. It's going to be a several days and certainly not even at the point where anyone will even be able to begin assessing the damage yet.

PC: Kayla, put on the wellies, keep on the wellies. Stay safe.

KAYLA HOUNSELL: Thank you.

PC: Kayla Hounsell the CBC's national reporter in the Maritimes. We reached her in St. John New Brunswick.

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Former NFL cheerleader calls for changes in how the profession is treated

Guests: Lisa Guerrera, Morgan Campbell

PC: I am Piya Chattopadhyay and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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VOICE 1: For me this is also just a lifelong dream come true. I started out as a junior Redskins star, so growing up in the studio and seeing the older girls the real cheerleaders dancing, so is something that I wanted and then I made it happen. So it means a lot to me.

VOICE 2: What are you looking forward to most about being a Washington Redskins cheerleader?

VOICE 1: I'm looking forward mostly to the events we do with Redskin charitable foundation. I think it's so great that our uniform has so much power to allow us to help people in the community.

PC: That's from a promotional video for the cheerleaders of Washington Redskins national football team. While Jordan is thrilled about making her dreams come true. Some former Redskins cheerleaders have described some less than ideal working conditions. In a New York Times article this week the team's cheerleaders describe a trip to Costa Rica in which they had their passports taken, were expected to be in photo shoot topless, and were taking to meetings with groups of men at local clubs. The men involved were Redskins sponsors suite holders. The CBC has not been able to verify those allegations that I just mentioned made by some women, but this is certainly not the first time that the NFL treatment of cheerleaders has been questioned. Lisa Guerrero is a former NFL cheerleader choreographer and broadcaster. She is now the chief investigative correspondent for Inside Edition and we have reached her in New York City hello.

LISA GUERRERO: Good morning, Piya.

PC: When you heard the allegations that came out the New York Times what were you thinking about?

LISA GUERRERO: I was appalled. As somebody who spent four years on the sidelines - as an NFL cheerleader for the Rams and then I went on to be the director and choreographer for two other teams the Falcons and the Patriots - I read that article with disgust, with concern for these women and frankly a deep concern about what's happening overall in the league and what the heck. Roger Goodell is doing as the NFL commissioner, and for how much longer can he turn a blind eye to what's going on with these teams on the entertainment unit.

PC: Did you read those allegations with any familiarity? In other words do they or any of the experiences you had in your time as a cheerleader?

LISA GUERRERO: You know when I was a cheerleader in the 80s in Los Angeles we had a very conservative squad. We were all wearing one piece uniforms and there was no drinking at events and you know we didn't have bikini challengers. So I kind of went through a very different experience. However I am very familiar that every team is run differently and I have been hearing stories for decades about women being sexualized and women being used kind of as baits at events for paid sponsor and for season ticket holders etc. And you know it didn't surprise me, it disgusted me that it's still happening in 2018, but I certainly did feel a ring of familiarity when I read that because yes I am very aware that those types of issues have been a problem for a long time.

LISA GUERRERO: So we contacted the Redskins about the allegations and they sent us this statement I'm going to read you part of it. It says: "Based on the dialogue we've had with a number of current and former cheerleaders over the past 48 hours, we've heard very different first-hand accounts that directly contradicts many of the details of the May 2nd article" - that's in reference to the New York Times article - It goes on to say: "If it is revealed that any of our employees acted inappropriately those employees will face significant repercussions". That's from the Redskins. Here's the thing, the Redskins are not the only team facing criticism for their treatment of its cheerleaders. So there's a woman in Bailey Davis, former cheerleader for the New Orleans Saints. She is suing that club after she was fired earlier this year for posting a photo of herself online. She was wearing a lacy black body suit. The pictures she posted violated a team policy which forbids semi-nude or lingerie photography. Now she says that rule is discriminatory because it only applies to cheerleaders not the players on these teams. Last night she spoke on CBC Radio's As It Happens about the teams no fraternization rule which she alleges also only applies to cheerleaders. Have a listen.

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We can't be any other players are ,obviously unless it is at the football game, even then we're not allowed to make eye contact with the players or engage in conversation. So if I were at a party with a player in the same building as a player. If I walked into a restaurant and the player is there, I have to leave. Or if I am there first with my family or something and a football player walks in, from any team, or - that goes for NBA too - I would have to leave.

PC: Okay, the New Orleans Saints say it's no fraternization rule is in place to protect the cheerleaders from players who may prey upon them. But Bailey Davis argues the onus to uphold the policy is completely on the cheerleaders to the point of termination. So Lisa Guerrero, what is I crossing my mind, and I think others, is why is the onus on the cheerleaders when they're talking about alleged behaviors by players and others? Why is it up to these women to fall under all these rules and regulation?

LISA GUERRERO: Well frankly it's ridiculous and it's hypocritical. You can't on one hand say these women are independent contractors. We don't have to pay their salaries. We don't have to give them minimum wage. We can sexualize them and we can exploit them and we can tell them who to date and what to post on social media. You know so we on one hand are controlling these young women and then on the other hand they're distancing themselves from them. So you know the whole system is full of problems. You know my suggestion would be to press pause on the entire program and say, what these women need to be protected in a perfect world by Actors Equity Union, Actors Equity protects for example the Rockettes - dancers that work for Disneyland and Disney World - and do away with the bikini calentures. You don't need that. These women are destined to be the actors and cheerleaders at football games. They're not auditioning to be bikini girls. And that goes for auditions. Why do they parade these girls out in bikinis for auditions? Let them do a dance audition, that is what they are there for. So I think the entire system needs to be, not dismantled, but certainly I think there needs to be a very strong and immediate response from the league to say we want to protect these women. They're an important part of the team. They are brand ambassadors for our team teams. They were the team's colors. They're out in the community representing the teams. They should be paid at least a minimum wage and they should be protected at every single event they go to.

PC: To that point. The NFL has responded to the allegations and again I'm going to read part of what they said which is: "Cheerleaders have the right to work in a positive and respectful environment that is free from any and all forms of harassment and discrimination and fully complies with state and federal laws."

LISA GUERRERO: Talk is cheap and so are statements. What matters is action and what matters is when the teams sit down with these women and say we're going to start protecting you. We're going to make sure that you are not sent out in the community at events at bars without security. We're going to make sure you're paid for your time. We're not going to exploit you with bikini calentures and shoots where you're expected to be topless in front of sponsors, as these women allege. You know Bailey, the women that you played the sound bite from, spoke to me yesterday for my report on Inside Edition and she claimed that her director was giving alcohol shots to women as young as 18 years old in order to get them to feel more secure when they were doing photo shoots and personal appearances with older male sponsors.

PC: And I should say we have not verified those allegations. I know she told them yesterday.

LISA GUERRERO: Yes she did and we reached out to the Saints and they've yet to get back to us. So you know these things are troubling and you know and as you mentioned this isn't the only team. This isn't the only one that's come forward. This has been going on for years and several cheerleading squads have now sued the teams for better pay and for more protection. The Raiders just settled a lawsuit, another team last year settled a lawsuit. So these problems have been around and until and unless Roger Goodell stops and takes it seriously they're not going to go away.

PC: Okay. Lisa Guerrero thank you.

LISA GUERRERO: Thank you.

PC: Lisa Guerrero is the chief investigative correspondent for Inside Edition. We reached her in New York City. Well Morgan Campbell is a reporter with The Toronto Star and the author of the paper's weekly series it has called the Sports Prism and it looks at the intersection of sports and society and culture. He is with me here in Toronto. Hi Morgan.

MORGAN CAMPBELL: Hey, good to be here.

PC: So when you read the New York Times report about the allegations by the Washington Redskins cheerleader squad, how surprised were you?

MORGAN CAMPBELL: Not very especially given the reporting the New York Times has been doing over the last month or so about these issues and what emerges is this pattern. And again as Lisa pointed out it varies over time and it varies from team to team, but this pattern of serial exploitation. And this idea to the league in these different teams don't have a problem with certain risky things as long as they can monetize. Just the idea of the Washington Redskins. This team is called the Redskins and the NFL instituted this rule right where you can see racial slurs on the field. And this was a rule basically targeted policing black speech did in what guys call each other the N word in any context. We don’t like racial slurs unless we can monetize, watching Redskins. So here we have a cheerleader and she posts a picture of herself on social media, in lingerie, and the team says hey wait a minute, you can't post these sexualized images of yourself because we want to be able to get and make money. So it is this pattern of exploitation and of hypocrisy.

PC: I think one of the main concerns people are raising is in that larger context the gender disparity, which a player can put on Lacy whatever and post a picture on Instagram should they want to, that they can go to a restaurant and have a cheerleader from their team shows up they don't have to leave, that they allegedly go to these parties and that these women are init. All the rules, all the onus is on these cheerleaders or women in the case of the NFL and not on the men who may be acting inappropriately, which is an astonishing thing for some people to hear in 2018?

MORGAN CAMPBELL: Yes the women have their behaviour policed and then they are told that is for your protection. Let's talk about this idea that the teams have to ban social contact between players and cheerleaders to keep the cheerleaders safe. And if you think this lowly of the players on your team or what are you doing with them on your team. Well they play football, they are good at football. We don't know if they know how to act around women. But at the same time we're talking about a group of adult men. You can even get into the NFL until you're at least three years out of high school. We are talking about grown men. If these guys can't police their own behavior, then you have a different set of problems.

PC: I think that's the concern, though, like just behave well. Don't sexually harass women. It is kind of like- To your point that the players seem to be just being like 'hey we're doing this for the safety of the cheerleaders,' what about quote unquote teaching some of them if not all of them better behaviour.

MORGAN CAMPBELL: Absolutely. Again if we're talking about a group of 20, 25, 30 year old men that don't know how to behave themselves around women then why are you not addressing that? In addition to maybe paying the cheerleaders.

PC: Then there's this kind of other debate that happens which is what is the role of cheerleading in sports? Is it relevant? It started at the time and it has morphed over the years as we heard Lisa Guerrero say. So do you think, I mean you cover all kinds of sports, does cheerleading have a place in professional sport.

MORGAN CAMPBELL: [Laughs] Possibly. What stands out to me with NFL cheerleaders is how different they are from college cheerleaders. Most college teams you'll have a co-ed with cheerleading squad, men and women. The women have a lot of them clothes on than your typical NFL cheerleading squad. And what it does if leading Cheer's is really the goal here, having this coed cheerleading squad jsut opens up so many more options because they have guys, they have girls. There is a bit of a size and strength disparity. You can big bigger pyramids.

PC: It's more athletic.

MORGAN CAMPBELL: They can throw each other in the air. Exactly. All of this stuff. But I have a hunch that NFL cheerleaders aren't necessarily there to cheer is just a hunch.

PC: Meaning what, Morgan?

MORGAN CAMPBELL: Look at what we are here talking about. These swimsuit photo calendar shoots they are not co-ed. You go have guys and girls in team colors doing a pyramid on a count issue. These cheerleaders it appears you know their job is less about leading cheers than it is to just sell sex, because a lot of these teams have made this calculation; look our audience is mostly men, mostly straight, mostly macho, they like sex with the violence. So we're going to sell them both. Cool. But just call it what it is. Let's not pretend these are the same as the cheerleaders that we saw in college because they're not.

PC: And just to make the differentiation because especially the United, States but also in Canada, this sport called cheer is really gaining traction. I mean that is more like gymnastics and dancing and co-ed all morphing together. Your issue is with [unintelligible] but there's different kind of cheerleading.

MORGAN CAMPBELL: Yes and you can't even necessarily call it old school, because as Lisa Guerrera just pointed it out, like it is become more sexualized over time. This is completely modern objectification of the women on the sidelines who were wearing clothing, scanty clothing but clothing bearing like registered trademarks of NFL teams. So the teams co-sign on all this. But just call it what it is and then we can deal with it.

MORGAN CAMPBELL: There are those who will say let's just get rid of cheerleading altogether, whether it's in the NFL, whether the Raptors, last night they got cheerleaders as well. What would you say to that?

MORGAN CAMPBELL: For me, myself, personally, as a sports fan, I don't need a lot of the in-game entertainment that a lot of other fans need and I get the teams consciously are selling you entertainment. The game is the centerpiece of the entertainment but you have deejay's. You have dance squads. Like the Raptors they have an all women's death squad. You have a men's dance squad and you have kids dance squads that's co-ed. So I get it. But the women's death squad wears the least clothing of all three of those sets of dancers. But I get it. But at the same time I don't know how much meaning of cheers like an NFL team needs when you're at the Super Bowl. It's the last two minutes of the game, a team has the ball then driving to win the game. Do you need a group of people on the sidelines to get fans engaged and interested in what's happening on the field? You don't. But again I get it that this is part of overall entertainment package. For me personally I don't know how much it adds to the game but other people might need it.

PC: We will leave it there and there will be more on this story. Morgan Campbell thank you.

MORGAN CAMPBELL: Thank you.

PC: Morgan Campbell is a reporter with The Toronto Star. His weekly series the Sports Prism looks at the intersection of sport and society. Morgan was here with me in Toronto. If you have something you want to say about the NFL and its recent allegations against it, against at least one team, about how its cheerleaders are treated please do let us know. You can tweet us @TheCurrenCBC. You can go to Facebook our Facebook.com/cbctheurrent and leave your comment there, or you can or you can e-mail us by going to our Web site cbc.ca/thecurrent. Once you're there click on the contact contact us link. All right. Coming up in our next half hour the rock guitar is dead. Long live the rock guitar work here riffs on the demise and bright future of rock and roll the definitive Revia instrumental with the looming bankruptcy of the Gibson Guitar Company. I'm here Chattopadhyay. You're listening to the Friday edition of The Current. We are back in just a bit.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Do guitar industry struggles signal the death of rock 'n' roll?

Guests: Luke Lalonde, Matt Hart, Geoff Edger

PC: Hi again I'm Piya Chattopadhyay. And you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Electric guitar].

PC: Well those are just a few of the legendary guitar riffs that have made Gibson brand guitarist famous. Yes for as long as there has been rock and roll Gibson guitars have been twanging, roaring and gently weeping along, but this week Gibson sounded a minor note filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. The company, founded back in 1894 in Kalamazoo Michigan, is struggling with debt after a series of strategic missteps. But it is also contending with the most ominous musical trend and that is a general decline in the sale of guitars. In the past decade alone, sales of guitars in the United States have declined from 1.5e million to one million each year. Industry observers say there's plenty of blame to go around for the six strings decline but it sounds to some like the electric guitar's final swan song. Geoff Edgers is the national art reporter for The Washington Post where he has covered the struggling electric guitar industry. We've reached him in Boston. Hello.

GEOFF EDGER: Hi there how are you doing?

PC: I'm okay. So according to your reporting how would you describe the general health of the electric guitar business?

GEOFF EDGER: Well it's a complicated thing but I would say overall we're finding that the guitar which really- I am an old man, I am 47. And you know when I was growing up there was a sort of a central part of teenage culture and you always liked the guitar. It's not quite world anymore. So while it's not dying completely we are seeing that there's there is quite a decrease in the number of new guitar is being sold. And the industry is you know shaky in many places. I say this is you can tell because you know the guitar industry people and guitarist and I am one, not a good one, anything that sounds like 'the death of the electric guitar' they get really defensive. And so I am just couching myself with that. It has been rosier. Let's put it that way.

PC: You know I said in the introduction that Gibson, one of the most famous and profitable guitar manufacturers, is having hard times but how much of this is this a problem beyond Gibson?

GEOFF EDGER: Gibson is a great example of how to do it wrong. You know what they did was they decided they were going to be just a guitar company. They viewed this giant market of electronics and expanded dramatically and now it's filed for bankruptcy. Now there are many guitar companies and there are also small guitar makers and they're doing okay. I mean the [cutting] there's no other electronic product where people are like: 'You know I might get a new one of these or maybe I'll go one from 1957'. You know you don't see that with TVs, where people like: 'May be I'll get that black and white thing for living room, from 1957' and you do have that with guitar. So it's a very long complicated dynamic.

PC: I guess the question really becomes if Gibson's downfall is echoed by other companies, what they're saying is that people aren't buying as many electric guitars and I'm assuming it's a more complex answer then the question I'm going to ask, but why aren't people buying electric guitars?

GEOFF EDGER: I would say there are many reasons but you know if you want to segment into a few reasons what is, this guitar hero thing is one thing and practicing it by saying that, again, these guitar people go crazy when you mentioned guitar heroes, saying that there are no good players anymore, which is not teh case. What I am talking about is like Jimmy Page with his snake uniform, with his shirt open, climbing the side of a mountain and finding someone who is telling him something. That of Guitar Hero who might not even actually be as good as another guitarist the same time but he's mystical and somebody that kids want to emulate. We don't have as many of those anymore. Well you got go down the list and we could tick our so many of them from the Golden Age of Guitar. That's one piece. Two, you know you have things like hip hop. I mean the fact is in 90s you play Walk This Way the Aerosmith version going you know there's you know the fact is that Run DMC version of Walk This Way 1986 is an important line. That's the first rap song that was played on white radio. Until that point the field was clear. I mean MTV when they played African American artist it was like Billy Ocean, like Lionel Richie. Until that point rap was not a part of the equation. So that's an important piece. And then finally, technology has changed and the fact is guitar playing is hard. It's like you know basketball is hard, piano is hard, building a ship is hard. Over the years these mixers and Garageband and four tracks in you know all of these devices have allowed us to be creative and make things without actually having to have as much technical expertise. You can be a really trained freethinking person and not necessarily know your scales and create great music. So all those factors come into it and make it a more challenging market.

PC: I just want to pick up on the first factor that you mention and this is the guitar hero. The person that actually was a great musician out there onstage but selling guitars and so you mention Jimmy Page. I'm thinking of the Hendrix, the Claptons, the Santanas. Give me some more examples of who you would define as a guitar hero.

GEOFF EDGER: One of my favourites is Vernon Reid from Living Colour.

[Music]

GEOFF EDGER: They are kind of emulous, even ones that aren't that good or are heroes in that era. The problem now when you are [cutting] what about Mark Tremonti or what about you know Annie St. Vincent, and they're a great guitarist in denying that. But the question is how many young people are picking up guitar because they're seeing Mark Tremonti. I don't know, Mark Tremonti fans will say like a million. You know I am not sure it's the same as with Eddie Van Halen. I mean that was widespread. So so that's part of the problem. You know Jimmy Page and Allan Holdsworth were around the same period of time. Allan Holdsworth is a much better guitarist Jimmy Page. But I would argue that Jimmy Page is the guy who was the guitar hero and sold those guitars.

PC: What riff stand out for you?

GEOFF EDGER: Well Walk This Way is an amazing one.

[Music]

GEOFF EDGER: We Smoke in the Water.

[Music]

GEOFF EDGER: Rush [unintelligible].

[Music]

PC: And everyone you've mentioned is older than you are.

GEOFF EDGER: You're absolutely right. They're amazing. I loved Stephen Malkmus who people might know from Pavement. I think he's one of the great guitarists of our time. If you were out in the street and ask 200 people to tell you a Stephjen Malkmus riff, I'd say 199.5 couldn't you know.

PC: [Laughs] Fair. You know you wrote about this for the Post, and almost as interesting as your story was the response that it provoked. The backlash, if I can call that. So I'm going to play a bit. This is some of the response you got to the YouTube clip that was posted by a guy named Lewitinn Berenger. He's the host of a YouTube channel dedicated to guitar and recording.

SOUNDCLIP

Guitar heros used to be on the stage all the time. That's where we found them; on the stage, on the albums. We would just listen and be like oh my god that guy is so amazing, how do you do that, and you sit there and you learn his parts. Those are the old guitar heroes and we still love and respect of them of course but my idea of a guitar hero these days are people you know who are on YouTube or whatever platform. But if there are teachers out there they're the ones that are the current form of guitar heroes. There is no shortage of guitar heroes out there. These are excellent guitar players who are inspiring young musicians out there to get better at their instruments, but they're doing it in a whole new way through the Internet. So they're able to actually show people what to do.

PC: Geoff Edgers what do you make of that criticism that alternate definition of Guitar Hero?

GEOFF EDGER: I not really understand why it's so wrong to say the Guitar Hero, as the way I define it in the story, has changed. I mean it's like it's a little silly is he saying like a teacher is guitar hero. I don't know. He couldn't define his own idea of what a Guitar Hero is. But I am really trying to connect it as one of the factors why not as many young people playing guitar. You know in our story it wraps up with Andy Mooney, the guy from Fender, he calls Taylor Swift a guitar hero. Obviously Taylor Swift can't lady guitar as well as, I'd say, like Mark Reybold.

[Music]

GEOFF EDGER: I would argue that way more pick up a guitar as of Taylor Swift or Ed Sheeran than Mark Rebot it isn't an issue into a fuss is about. I like guitars. I buy guitars. My kid is eight years old, just had his first guitar lesson a few days ago on a Gibson. I don't really get why it's such a sensitive area.

PC: I'm glad you brought up your kid, and the age and the ages are unintelligible] because it allowed, distorted electric guitars used to be the sound of dangerous youthful rebellion. So I'm curious to what extent do you think that association with aging baby boomers has taken the appeal away for younger people, maybe not your eight year old, but younger people who might otherwise be inclined to to pick up the electric guitar, plug it in, play loud quorum dangerous music.

GEOFF EDGER: I don't necessarily fathom the fact that you know there's this whole generation of rich guys who are like 57 have you know guitars on the wall. I mean I have a 15 year old too and it's not like he sits around ageing: 'Ah these old men have guitars and I don't want to play them'. I think it's those other factors we are talking about. I the guitar dangerous? I mean it sounds pretty dangerous if you get things set up just right. But that's all it is dangerous now as it might have sounded in 1959 or 1968 or whatever. You know there might be like a sampler or something that you can make in another way that will sound just as dangerous. My boy plays guitar because he likes the sound of it.

PC: You [unintelligible] had a bit to this earlier but I just want to pick up on something that you said, and that is when we talk about the dominant popular music forums out there right now ,hip hop, and R and B that play to an increasingly diverse North American audience how does race and culture fit into this?

GEOFF EDGER: What's interesting to me is Kendrick Lamar you know just won the Pulitzer Prize for a great record and I am big fan of Bob. But it's really disturbing to me when you write a story about hip hop, when you read the comments, there is a whole crowd out there that goes 'Rap is crap' as if it's you know just not even music. And so I don't know the racial component to it. It could also be an argues component to it because many people who were in radio in the 70s- Black urban radio was about the most unfriendly place for a part in the early 80s as anywhere. Randy MC got on Rolling Stone before they got on Black Magazine. So it's really hard, what you’re asking me is a very complicated question that mixes in a lot of your own prejudices. It is disturbing that people will see it as a choice of I can play guitar or I can use [unintelligible], or I can do hip hop, or I can do aggressive rock, or heavy metal or whatever. You know when I was growing up there was Eddie Van Halen popped up Michael Jackson video or the Randy MC thing. You felt like the world was wide open and you could do anything. I'd say musicians feel that. You know I see that all the time. I see people collaborating in ways the show you that anybody can play anything together.

PC: Geoff Edgers good to talk to you. Thank you.

GEOFF EDGER: Thanks so much for having me, appreciate it.

PC: Geoff Edgers is the national arts reporter for The Washington Post. We reached him in Boston.

[Music]

PC: Now that is the Toronto band Born Ruffian's and you can hear the electric guitar in there. Luke Lalonde is the band's guitarist and singer. We have reached him in Calgary. Hi.

LUKE LALONDE: Hello.

PC: So when you hear about the decline of the electric guitar and the disappearance of guitar heroes, Luke, you're thinking what?

LUKE LALONDE: No not at all. I'm thinking yeah. I mean I think you don't have to look far to see that, yes, there's not a lot of huge stars that are guitarist. It's just not in the spotlight. It's not in the mainstream of music.

PC: You play the electric guitar. So what attracts you to the instrument?

LUKE LALONDE: I mean for me it was just the thing that I latched onto you as a kid. I played sports and stuff but I never really took to anything and there was never a passion for me. And then I got a guitar when I was 11 and just immediately took to it and just that was all I wanted to do. Know I grew up with my parents music. I wasn't the the kid that rejected all my parents cultural stuff, pop culture stuff. I kind of embraced it. I loved the Beatles. I loved that kind of classic rock stuff. So they were my heroes and idols as well. And I think, yes, it was just very appealing to me. I dont think that is going away. I think theres always going to be kids that see the Beatles or Nirvana or whoever, somebody with a guitar, and that's what they will want to do.

PC: So if we redefine the guitar hero definition to 2018 I mean who are your guitar heroes?

LUKE LALONDE: Current guitar heros?

PC: Sure.

LUKE LALONDE: I like innovative guitar. I mean David Byrne to me, he's more rhythmic. He doesn’t shred or anything like Lindsey Buckingham who’s very in the background but an incredible player. I mean Hendrix was a huge- I loved Hendrix when I was like 15-16. You know I tried to learn Little Wing and it was very hard, I went for like a very bad version of it and that was it for me. I was like yes, he is better than me.

[Laughter]

PC: He's better than most. Okay I want to bring in another musician Matt Hart is the singer and multi-instrumentalist who leads the Russian Futurist is a Toronto group and Matt is in Toronto. Hi Matt.

MATT HART: Hey how is it going?

PC: I'm good. Just for people who haven't heard the Russian futurist I just want to play a bit of your music. Here we go.

[Music]

PC: Matt, my musical air does not hear any electric guitar in there.

MATT HART: There are none to be found. I do sample some kind of guitar related instruments in there but the guitar, for me, was never a big part of my life to be honest.

PC: So when you were getting the band together and putting out music it was a conscious decision not to put any electric guitar?

MATT HART: Well it wasn't even that. It's just that I never had a moment with electric guitar where it's snapped. Like I mean everything changed for me when I heard hip hop for the first time. And I instantly wanted to know how was this made. And I discovered the sampler was like my guitar. And once I learned a little bit about sampling, just through trial and error, which took years and years and years and I still do it to this day. That was the musical revelation I needed. And so electric guitar didn't even really enter the fray. I got one as a gift a few years ago and I tried to tune it. They broke through three strings and I've never touched it again.

[Laughter]

PC: Okay but here's the thing. And people would say to you Matt, you've got this question before, 'you know this stuff of music you're making Matt, that lacks craft and authenticity of the traditional rock guitar' and you say what to that?

MATT HART: And I answer back father, someone equally as age, that they may just don't understand. I think that music is valid no matter what instrument you're using like the backlash you're seeing is because people are worried that when you say the guitar is going anywhere. And let me just tell you it's not going anywhere. It will be around forever just as people still play the kalimba like the thumb you know like they did centuries ago. Guitar will always be a part of music. But for me it just never resonated with me. Like I listen to a lot of guitar music stuff like Polvo or Sonic Youth or stuff like that. In the 90s there was a lot going on with guitar that really held my interest. But right now we dont see big rock stars because the big rock stars are hip hop. MCs right now. If I ask my nephews who are 11 and 12, who is Stephen Page, anyone from Led Zeppelin ,they are just going to laugh and say what is that. But then you ask them what Gucci Gang is from Little Pump and they know that is guaranteed.

PC: As good Canadians they might know who Stephen Page is.

[Laughter]

PC: Okay but you know for so many decades then I guess that was a different time and all those things. I mean the electric guitars were the instrument. If you were going to play popular rock n roll you were going to have someone up there, usually a guy, playing the guitar. So what else do you account for the fading in popularity of the electric guitar?

MATT HART: think guitar has become a default in rock music a little bit. I mean I don’t want it to go anywhere. I don’t have any bias against that but I think its a little bit like making a sandwich now for people making a song. They are like, well of course we used bread right, just like they were with the guitar. Instead of being like maybe we should wrap this up or put some noodles in it or something like that. It's just default now.

PC: Luke for you. Is there something I don't know maybe this is a stretch of word I am using, missing from music when there isn't a real guitar by which I mean a guitar six strings set you plug into an amp.

LUKE LALONDE: No absolutely not. I’m with Matt in terms of- music will persevere. There’s always going to be people who are passionate about music and kids who hear something just go like me and I want to do that. I want to figure that out and the fact that its not a guitar anymore is not a bad thing. It is just things change, things shift. Like what Jeff was saying too, is a shift in the market more than anything. That's certainly not something that I get upset about over you know a giant companies losing money. I mean the art itself will always continue and you know kids will continue to pick up guitars. I think it'll be just a shift in who's inspiring those kids and I hope it's more- and it seems to be more and more women and non-white males I guess that might lead to another kind of revolution in guitar heroes. Who knows. I mean that would be great.

PC: Like Taylor Swift, the St. Vincents, the [unintelligible].

LUKE LALONDE: Yes yes exactly yes.

PC: Okay we're gone back in time. And I want to play some spinal tap mockumentary 1984 for people who have not seen it. I want to set the stage. There's the scene where the lead guitarist Nigel Tufnel is given a tour of his huge collection of electric guitars. They're mostly Gibsons.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Do you actually play all of these?

VOICE 2: I play them and I cherish them. This is the top of the heap right here. There's no question about it. Look at the flame on that one. I mean it's just it's quite unbelievable. This one it's just- it's perfect 1959. You know just- you can listen. Just listen for a minute. This is [unintelligible] listen to it.

VOICE 1: I'm not hearing anything.

VOICE 2: You would though if it were playing. It really it's famous for it's sustain. I mean you can just hold it and [vocalizing] you can go and have a bite and [vocalizing] You'll still be hearing that one.

VOICE 1: Yes.

VOICE 2: This is special too. Look it still got the old tag on it. Never even played it.

VOICE 1: You just bought it?

VOICE 2: Don't touch it.

VOICE 1: I wasn't going to touch it. I was just pointing at it.

VOICE 2: Well don't point even.

VOICE 1: Don't even point even.

VOICE 2: It can't be played. Never.

VOICE 1: Can I look at it?

VOICE 2: No . don't look at that one.

PC: Obviously satire and it's still funny spinal tap after all these years.

MATT HART: Amazing.

PC: Yes but really what they're getting at is the idea that the electric guitar is this deadish object. So do you think that part of the rejection of that sentiment is intertwined with the decline of the electric guitar?

MATT HART: Well there's something inherently cool about the electric guitar. It's very phallic. It's loud. There's a lot of cool points in its favor but you're seeing that scene your fetishism in any genre with electronic music, or at hip hop there's certain samplers like the Akai MP series would be like the Gibson Les Paul. People are losing their minds over those. And the TR8 which was made by Roland which is a drum machine. Is arguably the most popular snare sound in today's pop but it was created probably 25-30 years ago. So do you see the gear fetishism actually happen in other genres too. It's just the guitar has had so much time to be cool.

PC: Luke that film 94 or what, 30 some years after spinal tap came out. It was already treating rock and roll as a dinosaur form. So as a guy who plays a guitar in 2018, I mean do you go. Like maybe I'm playing an instrument that belongs to a generation or was that a generation associated with aging baby boomers?

[Laughter]

PC: That's the most unfriendly question I could ask.

LUKE LALONDE: No you're not wrong that's for sure. I mean there's always, there are a lot of young bands who are carrying the torch or whatever and it's still cool. It's still cool. I don't feel- I don't know I have more anxiety over personal music related things. Like am I going to write another song? Am I going to have, every time I write a song, or searching am like is it, was that the last one I am going to write? I worry about that more than the relevance of where am I going to fit it into the zeitgeist story or whatever. It is not really a question to me what music I make. I make whatever I want to make. I don't worry too much about it if it's cool or not. It will continue on, there are a lot of 20 year old kids.They are playing guitars and bands playing to a lot of people around the country. It's just not a focus in the mainstream media or whatever. It's more so about other genres, you know Drake, Taylor Swift, whoever. It's more it's not it's not about rock'n'roll any more. I am aware of it for sure.

PC: And on that note which will sadden some of our listeners and brighten other ones I will let you go. Thanks a lot. Luke Lalonde is a musician and the front man for the Born Ruffians, a Toronto indie rock band. He was in Calgary. And Matt Hart is the front man for the Russian Futurist. It is an indie electronic pop band. He's in Toronto. Whether you play the guitar or not tell us if you lament its decline in popular music or if you like, okay, time to go. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC or find us on Facebook or you can email us from our site cbc.ca/thecurrent.CREDITS.

Hello I'm Karin Marley, one of the producers here at The Current. This week the show was produced by: Alison Masemann, Howard Goldenthal, Pacinthe Mattar, Idella Sturino, Julie Crysler, Samira Moyheddin, Ines Colabres, Kristin Nelson, Liz Hoath, Geoff Turner, John Chipman, Mary-Catherine McIntosh, Michael O'Halloran, Karin Marley, and Danielle Carr. Special thanks to Anne Penman in Vancouver, Susan McKenzie in Montreal, and Suzanne Dufresne in Winnipeg. The Current's intern is Bethlehem Mariam. The Current's writer is Peter Mitton. Our web producer is Lisa Ayuso [eye-you-so] and our digital producer is Padraig Moran. Our documentary editor is Joan Webber. Transcriptions are provided by Rasha Shehata and Shamhan Bhuiyan. Our technical producer is Gary Francis. Our senior producers are Willow Smith in Toronto and Cathy Simon in Vancouver. The acting executive producer of The Current is Alison Broddle.

PC: And that is The Current for this Friday. Stay tuned to Radio 1 for Q with Tom Power. He'll be having a conversation with Canadian actress Alison Pill. Remember you can always take The Current with you to go on the CBC Radio app. It is free from the App Store or Google Play. Finally after our conversation today about the electric guitar and whether we'll be hearing it in the years to come, we're going to leave you with some more music from Luke Lalonde band, they're called the Born Ruffians and this is their latest single Miss You. I'll be back at the mike this Sunday at noon on my show Out in the Open. So tune in for that. But for now I'm Piya Chattopadhyay and thank you for listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

[Music]

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Friday May 4, 2018 Full Transcript

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