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The Current Transcript for April 27, 2018

Host: Duncan McCue

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

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For me having gone through that as a gay individual and saying I believe this is a hate crime and that not being heard that kind of erases that aspect who I am and I think race is so much learning.

DUNCAN MCCUE: It's been more than four years since Scott Jones life changed, four years since he was stabbed in the throat and left to die outside a bar in New Glasgow Nova Scotia. Scott Jones didn't die but the attack left him in a wheelchair. His assailant was caught and convicted of attempted murder. But what he wasn't convicted of is what vexes Scott. Filmmaker Laura Marie Wayne has made a point of new film about her close friend and his search for answers and closure. We'll talk to both of them in about an hour. Before that:

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[Indistinct conversation]

DM: Sounds from a video of a young Muslim man attacking a man wearing a Jewish kippah in Berlin earlier this month. The video went viral sparking a warning from a prominent Jewish leader suggesting Jews not wear outward symbols of their faith to protect themselves. But the video also sparked rallies of thousands of Germans who donned their own kippot in a public display of defiance. Stand up or stay safe. We'll tackle the question of how best to deal with anti-Semitism. But firs:.

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Today this jury has shown what the MeToo movement has said, is that women are worthy of being believed. I thank the jury.

DM: Some emotional words on the courthouse steps in Pennsylvania yesterday from Lily Bernard, one of more than 60 women who've publicly accused Bill Cosby of sexual assault. The comedian and TV icon was found guilty yesterday of drugging and assaulting one woman. The question now is was the verdict a game changer in the age of MeToo. And we'll hear from one of its Canadian advocates after, Erika Rosenbaum. I'm Duncan McCue. This is the Friday edition of The Current.

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'This is a victory for all of us': Erika Rosenbaum empowered by Bill Cosby verdict

Guests: Caroline Heldman, Erika Rosenbaum

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This is a victory not just for Andrea Constand whom I consider to be the Joan of Arc in the war on rape. It is not just a victory for the Commonwealth. It is not just a victory for the 62 of us probably known survivors. It is also a victory for a womanhood and it is a victory for all sexual assault survivors, female and male.

DM: Some more strong words from Bill Cosby accuser Lili Barnard yesterday. The 80 year old Cosby was found guilty of three counts of aggravated indecent assault for drugging and sexually assaulting the woman she mentioned Canadian Andrea Constand in 2004. He faces up to 10 years in prison for each count. The verdict came as a shock for many. Lili Barnard almost collapsed on her way out of the courtroom. It was the second time. Bill Cosby was tried for sexually assaulting Andrea Constand. The first trial ended in a hung jury last June. Since then MeToo has become a powerful social movement taking down Harvey Weinstein and a number of other powerful men accused of sexual assault and misconduct. Caroline Heldman is the research director for the Geena Davis Institute for Gender in Media and associate professor of politics at Occidental College. She's an advocate for women who've been sexually assaulted. And she's one of several women who went public with allegations of gender discrimination against US television host Bill O'Reilly. She was in the courtroom yesterday. And we've reached her in New York City, hello.

CAROLINE HELDMAN: Good morning Duncan.

DM: What was it like for you sitting in the court room watching the Bill Cosby trial unfold? What was it like for you to hear that word 'guilty'?

CAROLINE HELDMAN: Well it was a shock. I was sitting in between Lili Bernard and Therese Seringese and Lili's been a Cosby Survivor. He's been waiting for justice for 26 years. And Therese has been waiting for 41 years. And they both broke down emotionally and slumped in their seats just sobbing and weeping. And we were actually asked to leave the courtroom because the judge was calling for order in the court. So to say it was a shock is an understatement because we were all there last year for the hung jury and our expectations were that this proceeding was going to go as most rape cases go, where it is very rare for a rapist to be convicted, only 2 percent ever see a day inside a prison cell.

DM: You followed the last trials well it ended in a hung jury. What was it like to have to come back to court and hear the details of the case all over again?

CAROLINE HELDMAN: Well it was disheartening. I think that after the last trial where two women shared almost identical stories, they didn't know each other, 10 years apart that it was just really a blow that these women were simply not being believed by a jury of their peers. And for this trial there were actually six women who took the stand and told almost identical stories of Bill Cosby grooming them, getting in good with their family, you know giving grandma tickets to a show, talking to their folks on the phone and then drugging and sexually assaulting them. And then after the fact still trying to cover his tracks by being friendly with family members so that survivors felt like, not only did they know something had happened to them, but they felt like they couldn't turn to their even their family for support after such a horrendous violation.

DM: Of course another big difference between the first trial and the second trial is the rise of the era of MeToo. What do you think the effect of that was on this case?

CAROLINE HELDMAN: Duncan, I think it played a direct role in that the prosecution in providing a much better case actually started their first witness - her name is Dr. Barbara Ziv - a forensic psychiatrist who came out and said here are some very common rape myths. And rape myths are things that we believe about how victims react after a trauma like this. And these myths do not fit reality. So for example she really directly addressed the idea that survivors come forward right away when they don't, or that their memories are going to be strong and clear and linear when they're not. That's not actually what happens with trauma survivors. So the jury actually got to hear about all the things that they. You know the rape myths that might be clouding their vision. And so I think that is the biggest shift because it's a cultural shift right where we prioritise abolishing or not addressing rape myths when it comes to these sorts of things. So I've never seen that in a trial. I've never seen rape myths directly addressed in trial and I think that has something to do directly with the MeToo movement.

DM: And that can often make it difficult. You know when there's continuing contact between an accuser and the accused that can make it difficult for a jury in some instances. How much weight do you think Barbara Ziv's testimony about rape myths carried with the jury?

CAROLINE HELDMAN: I think it carried a lot of weight because she has testified in 190 trials. It's unusual for this to happen in a rape trial but she has testified in many trials, and I think she came across as very credible especially when the defence tried to provide you know poke holes in what she was saying, and they simply didn't have the data. She had a report in front of her with 79 different citations of academic studies. So I actually think it was a great way for the prosecution to start it by providing the rape myths prior to actually putting the witnesses on the stand. So that as the witnesses took the stand and they talked about why it was that they took 20 or 30 years to come forward. It actually made sense to the jury.

DM: This is a verdict in just one specific case. You know each case gets tried on its own evidence. Is it fair to see it as a signal a change when it comes to the courts?

CAROLINE HELDMAN: Well I think it's important to consider the fact that they actually heard from six different witnesses. So even though Andrea Constand was the only person who was within the statute of limitations and the other 61 public survivors you know didn't come forward in time because of these laws, that it really is a statement on what's happening more broadly and with the fact that we're more likely to believe sexual assault survivors than we were a year ago.

DM: More than 50 women came forward in the case against Bill Cosby, and more than 80 women have now accused Harvey Weinstein of sexual misconduct. What do those numbers tell you about a woman's voice when it comes in the face of powerful men?

CAROLINE HELDMAN: Well I think that we've turned a corner as a culture that it now means that powerful men may be held accountable. But it's also a sad testament to the decades that they were allowed to engage in this behaviour and the number of people who either co-sign it or didn't take the proper action. In fact the prosecution, the lead attorney apologised to Andrea Constand for not doing more when she initially came forward in 2005. Kristin Seddon, one of the attorneys actually said in her closing statements `We failed Andrea Constand. But I think I think we have turned a corner in the sense that when one survivor comes forward publicly`, it inspires other survivors to come forward. And in the social media age it means that there is some sort of survivor solidarity that gives momentum and gives people an opportunity to share their voice that simply wasn't available you know pre 2006 and the emergence of social media.

DM: If there is any similarity though between Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby it is that the number the volume of accusers. I mean 60 in Bill Cosby's case over 80 in Harvey Weinstein'.s what about if it's just one?

CAROLINE HELDMAN: Well that makes it it certainly more difficult although the fact of the matter is that most sexual predators are serial sexual predators. We know from some data on college campuses that 4 percent of men are causing 91 percent of the problem. It gives you a sense of just how common serial sexual predators are. And just to point out that Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby I think the numbers that we have are the tip of the iceberg just given my work with survivors of both of those men that I know of many who have not come forward. So yes the 62 in the 100 plus I think in Harvey Weinstein's case that by my last count that really is not the full number.

DM: You have been very close to some of Bill Cosby's accusers and this only relates to one woman's assault. What happens to those accusers now?

CAROLINE HELDMAN: Well I think that in some sense obviously there's indication that they've been telling the truth and of course I've worked with them I know they're telling the truth. Their stories are so similar and the pain is palpable even after decades for some of these trauma survivors. In terms of what's next, a lot of the Cosby survivors have already turned their trauma into political activism. They've been working, we worked in California, Nevada and a few other states to abolish the statute of limitations on prosecuting rape. So there are these arbitrary time limits and we've gotten rid of them or extended them in some states. So there's going to be a push to do that nationally. And I also know that a group of us are working on adding women to the Constitution right. Passing the Equal Rights Amendment. Because at the end of the day, in the United States, the protections for women against sexual violence and domestic violence simply aren't as strong as they could be if we were actually written into the Constitution and had the highest level of protection possible.

DM: You are involved with allegations of gender discrimination against Bill O'Reilly. Why was it important for you to be in the courtroom in the case of Bill Cosby?

CAROLINE HELDMAN: You know it's important for me to be there because survivor sisterhood is really powerful. It means something to have your friends your survivor sisters sitting next to you in the courtroom when you're 20 feet away from your rapist. I will also say that we experienced a lot of harassment from Cosby's supporters. And so my role was not just to be supportive of Lili and the other Cosby survivors in the court room but also to run interference with trolls. I mean it was just a constant, everywhere you went there were people saying nasty things. A man was even physically aggressive with us yesterday after the verdict a Cosby's supporter outside of the courthouse. So it was even to provide physical protection in some instances from you know bullying Cosby supporters.

DM: Thank you for joining us today.

CAROLINE HELDMAN: Thank you Duncan.

DM: Caroline Heldman is the research director for the Geena Davis Institute for Gender in Media and an associate professor of politics at Occidental College. She was in New York City. My next guest is still waiting for her own day in court. Erika Rosenbaum is a Canadian actor who came forward last year with accusations of sexual assault against another powerful Hollywood man Harvey Weinstein. And Erika Rosenbaum is in our Montreal studio. Hello.

ERIKA ROSENBAUM: Good morning.

DM: How did you hear the news that Bill Cosby had been found guilty?

ERIKA ROSENBAUM: A headline caught my eye on the internet when I was checking e-mail and checking social media and I read the headline and I just burst into tears. I was absolutely overcome and and my reaction surprised me. But I was at home with my children so I got it together and moved along with preparing a meal. But I was- I was just- I was just floored and surprised to be surprised.

DM: Why were you surprised?

ERIKA ROSENBAUM: Well I mean this is the first real criminal consequence we've seen come out of the MeToo movement. And it is incredibly significant for victims of sexual assault for all victims as Lili Bernard said. It shows that there is justice coming and I just- I couldn't help but feel for the women who have been fighting this and waiting for justice for you know 26, 41 years. I mean that's- that's a lifetime for some people. And to and to imagine their moment was incredibly moving.

DM: I understand you form ties with some of the other women who came forward against Harvey Weinstein. What kind of conversations were you having yesterday?

ERIKA ROSENBAUM: Well I reached out to them right away. We have been incredibly supportive of one another. The survivor's sisterhood is indeed very strong and supporting one another has been hugely hugely healing for all of us I think. So I reached out and wrote an e-mail to them with a big thumbs up and a victory sign, because this is this is a victory for all of us I think. And they immediately got back. I got eight simultaneous e-mails back. They all reacted the same way. They were all incredibly relieved incredibly excited and empowered by this by this Justice finally being done.

DM: In Bill Cosby's case with Andrea Constand the first jury, hung jury. What do you think led to a conviction this time?

ERIKA ROSENBAUM: Well I think there is a cultural shift that is happening this year. I think we are seeing it every day. And I think that the public knowledge of what has been going on has made a big difference. The media has played a huge part in carrying this story and keeping it relevant. And in listening to us and we have been encouraged by one another in coming forward. Women are inspired and emboldened by hearing other women's stories. And the more stories that have come out the more people have felt strong enough to share theirs. And I myself have gotten so many calls and e-mails more than I can count from people who have just approached me personally to share their experience. And I think shedding a light on this has changed the culture in a way that it will never be the same. And so that that cultural shift is erasable I think. I think going into the courts there was a different feeling. And so the rape myths that have been sort of demystified I think I think have changed the outcome.

DM: What's happened with your allegations against Harvey Weinstein since you went public?

ERIKA ROSENBAUM: Well it's an active and ongoing case. So you know there's not much I can say about it at this time. But we're very supportive of one another and we're very hopeful. I mean as you heard only two percent of these men face jail time so I'm really hoping that that that will change that it will not be so surprising when justice is served. You know we are not surprised to hear of these abuses of power. We're not surprised to hear about men taking advantage and hurting women in this way. It is just another story and we are incredibly surprised to hear when one of them faces the consequences for that. So I'd like to see that change.

DM: Well you talk about the consequences. Do you feel any differently about the case against Harvey Weinstein than you did before hearing the guilty verdict of Bill Cosby?

ERIKA ROSENBAUM: I do. I do I think this is an important sea change and I think I think it's absolutely possible that Harvey Weinstein will face will face criminal charges for this.

DM: What's the next chapter for you Erica Rosenbaum?

ERIKA ROSENBAUM: Well I'd like to keep supporting the women who are fighting this. I'd like to be available and speak to young people about how this can happen. I'd like to be as open as I can about my own experience because that's all I can speak to as an expert. And I think that every time I speak I give others permission to do the same. So I hope I get more opportunities to reach out and help others and shed a light on this so that it is no longer a major news story.

DM: There are the ongoing legal proceedings but then you also describe just sitting making breakfast with your children in the morning, and what it's like to hear the news of another completely different case and the impact that has on you personally. So how is it for you in terms of dealing with the personal challenges that you face?

ERIKA ROSENBAUM: Well I'm incredibly lucky to be very well supported. So personally I'm doing very well. But you know the results of this kind of trauma can last a lifetime and especially if it goes unaddressed and especially for those that don't have support and who haven't sought help. So I mean these are very damaging crimes and they're very personal and they're very complicated. So you know for me I continue to do the work that I find to be healing and to try to help others. And I seek help when I need it you know. But I think moving forward we are we are facing a new time. The rise of women is not is not going to turn around. And you know as we've seen with the recent misogyny attacks in Toronto you know there will be pushback and there is pushback with any kind of change. But I intend to keep doing my part whether it's difficult or not.

DM: Thank you for joining us today.

ERIKA ROSENBAUM: It's such a pleasure.

DM: Erika Rosenbaum is a Canadian actor. She was in our Montreal studio. CBC News is next. Then a disturbing anti-Semitic attack in Berlin that shocked the country's Jewish community. But there were even more shocked when a prominent Jewish leader told people not to wear symbols of their faith in public to protect themselves. How best to fight anti-Semitism. In our next half hour. I'm Duncan McCue. You're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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'We can't cower to intimidation': Jewish community in Germany march in solidarity

Guests: Sabine Sparwasser, Deidre Berger, Bernie Farber

DUNCAN MCCUE: Hi, I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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DM: Still to come, Scott Jones lost the use of his legs and almost lost his life when he was stabbed outside a bar in New Glasgow, Nova Scotia, four years ago. The road back has been long and difficult, but his close friend and filmmaker Laura Marie Wayne has made a documentary chronicling the journey. I'll talk to both of them in 30 minutes. But first, tackling anti-Semitism in Germany.

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[Noise and angry indistinct speech].

VOICE 1: [German Speech]

VOICE 2: Call the police. Call the police.

[Noise]

DM: Sounds from a violent daytime assault caught on video last week in Berlin. The video shows a young man taking off his belt and yelling 'Yehudi' or Jew, as he whips the person filming the incident. Police arrested a 19-year-old Syrian asylum seeker. The attack caused outrage and worry in Germany, prompting the president of the Central Council of Jews in Germany to advise Jews not to wear the Jewish skullcap or 'kippah' in public. But that suggestion drew a backlash of its own. At a rally in Berlin on Wednesday, thousands of people of various faiths donned 'kippot' in a show of solidarity. In the face of a rising wave of anti-Semitism, Jews in Germany are wondering what to do, stay safe or publicly display their faith. Deidre Berger is the director of the American Jewish Committee's Ramer Institute for German-Jewish relations a global Jewish advocacy group. She's in Berlin. Hello.

DEIDRE BERGER: Hello. Hello Duncan.

DM: You were at the rally where thousands of people took to the streets of Germany to wear 'Kippot' to show their support against anti-Semitism. What was it like being there?

DEIDRE BERGER: Well it was in fact very encouraging because it's rare that people will take to the streets to protest anti-Semitism. Sadly, it doesn't capture the public imagination. And I don't think it's taken as seriously as it should be. So I think for those of us in the Jewish community to have several thousand people together and putting on a 'kippah', which is an act of courage is relative when everyone's together. But it was unfamiliar for many people and it really took some thinking for them to come and organise a 'Kippot' and stand there in solidarity.

DM: What do we know about the recent attack on a young man wearing a 'kippah'?

DEIDRE BERGER: We know that he was provoked pretty much out of nowhere, but just because he had put on the 'kippah', he was not even Jewish, he's a young Israeli Arab and a friend of his in Israel, a Jewish friend dared him. He said: 'If I were you I don't think you should put on a 'kippah', if you do you'll see what happens'. And he's like: 'Oh no, here, I've lived here for three years'. He's a veterinarian student, 'that's no problem'. He put it on. It was a very middle-class hip neighbourhood and promptly he was, unfortunately, attacked by a young man who was recently arrived from Syria.

DM: What did you think of the call by the president of the Central Council of Jews in Germany not to wear a 'kippah' for safety reasons?

DEIDRE BERGER: Dr. Josef Schuster who is the head of the Central Council modified his comments at the rally. He said what I'm saying is you need to be judicious about wearing a 'kippah' and think about where and when you're wearing it and there ' s certain areas where as a individual, you may not want to wear it. He's certainly qualified the statement, but indeed it's a dilemma. There's no guarantee that he or I or anyone can give that if someone walks down the street, anywhere in Berlin, that you will not be at least verbally accosted. The chances are slim. There are such cases. They are relatively rare, but they do happen and it just takes it happening to one person to of course unsettle the entire community.

DM: You said it's a dilemma. What do you think about the idea that some Jewish people have to hide who they are?

DEIDRE BERGER: It's of course, not acceptable and I think if there's anything good that came out of this terrible attack. It's a growing recognition that people in Germany and in most European countries do often try and hide their identity, that they don't feel comfortable walking around with outward signs of their Jewishness, wearing 'kippahs', wearing necklaces with Jewish stars, wearing t-shirts from the Maccabi Jewish soccer leagues. And it's not normal and it's not okay. And I think that those Germans who say, it's time so long after the Holocaust to have normal relations again with the Jewish people and with Israel, have to understand that there's still no normality about it.

DM: Have there have been times that you didn't feel comfortable letting people know you're Jewish?

DEIDRE BERGER: It's rare. I think when you're on the streets, I wouldn't want or want my daughters to necessarily be seen with a necklace with a Star of David in certain parts of Berlin. It's true, I wouldn't feel so comfortable. Again, the chances are slim, but something could happen. And I think almost everyone feels that way, that we think twice about, is that appropriate? Is this a place where we can wear something? It's not a feeling of we constantly have to hide who we are and.. but it's a strange feeling also to walk into any synagogue or school in Germany, you have to walk past police. The German authorities are perhaps being overly cautious, but again there have been enough incidents and attacks that we can't rule it out. So there's still a feeling of exceptionalism I think to being Jewish in Germany, even though Jewish life is flourishing and I think we really need to emphasise that, that this is not keeping people from becoming Jewish, from going to synagogues, from going to rabbinical seminaries and kindergartens and Jewish community centres. There is a very healthy vibrant Jewish life in Germany, but it's still not at the stage where we can live without security.

DM: German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, has said this is a new kind of anti-Semitism playing out in Germany, not the old quote traditional kind of far-right anti-Semitism. What are your thoughts on that?

DEIDRE BERGER: There's been a growing problem, not just in Germany, in Europe particularly amongst many in the immigrant populations of those of immigrant background, many are Germans or French or others. There's been via internet and social media, a barrage of very anti-Semitic information, a steady stream that comes satellite television that runs nonstop from Arab countries and many households in Germany at mosques. There's certainly been an upturn in religiosity, as we know, in Europe within the Muslim world and some segments of that population are susceptible to it. And this is where in Germany at least, many of the physical assaults are coming from this direction. There's also a tremendous concern that we have about the refugees and immigrants who have come mostly from countries, majority Muslim countries where there's a national policy of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. Of course, not everyone's an anti-Semite as a result, but they've grown up in this atmosphere and they just don't know differently. It's urgent that the German government reaches people and language and integration classes, so they learn some basics about Jews, Jewish culture and history, what it has to do with Germany, the importance of the German-Israeli relationship and about democratic values, in general. And I think that the issue of anti-Semitism sadly is, as too often, is the canary in the mine as we say and is an indication that democratic values are being assaulted.

DM: Thank you for joining us today.

DIEDRE BERGER: You're welcome. Thank you so much.

DM: Deidre Berger is the director of the American Jewish Committee's Ramer Institute for German-Jewish relations. We reached her in Berlin.

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It was an experience for me to wear the 'kippah' because a friend of mine when he gave us the 'kippah' as a gift he said that it's unsafe to go out with a 'kippah' in the streets of Germany. And we had a discussion about it. I was saying that it's really safe. And I wanted to prove it, but it ended like that.

DM: That's the victim of the whipping, Adam Armush, explaining what happened to Deutsche Welle TV. Adam Armush, however, is not Jewish, he's an Israeli Arab. As you heard in that tape, he wore the 'kippah' in an attempt to prove it was safe to do so in Germany. My next guest has been keeping a close eye on the fallout from this assault and the ripple effect it's having. Bernie Farber is a human rights advocate, social justice consultant and former director of the Mosaic Institute. He's in our Toronto studio. Hello.

BERNIE FARBER: Hello Duncan.

DM: What do you think of what Deidre Berger just had to say?

BERNIE FARBER: Well I certainly don't disagree with Deidre. I've known Deidre for years and when I was with Canadian Jewish Congress, I worked closely with her and I've been to Berlin on a number of occasions. I guess for me, the only principle that I'd like to enunciate here is that we can't cower to intimidation and to bullying and to anti-Semitism. And by removing the 'kippah', that's exactly what we're doing. Now that said it has to obviously be an individual choice. I live here in the safety of Toronto, but look there are times even here in this wonderful city and you know the terrible tragedy that happened Monday. I mean there's no accounting for life. And from time to time life becomes difficult and it becomes even more so if you're a person of colour. If you're, if you're a visible Jew and we have learned over the centuries, very sadly, that anti-Semitism is here with us, always has been, sadly always will be. And if you cower before the bullies and those that intimidate, you lose and they win.

DM: You're concerned about people cowering in the face of bullies. But have we seen this type of advice before from Jewish leaders.

BERNIE FARBER: Yes we have, as a matter of fact and you know we've seen it happen in France and we've seen it happen in Belgium when there is a high-profile incident where, you know a religious Jew, an orthodox Jew is attacked for wearing religious garb, you had a 'kippah', a black hat, whatever the case may be. We get calls from religious leaders and others to consider you know playing a more careful role when you're walking down the streets and don't be visible and that type of thing. You know, for me, and I get it, I mean as I say sitting here it's easy to pontificate, but on the other hand I'm a child of survivors. I was brought up in a small Canadian town where anti-Semitism was a watch, where it happened to me. I don't think a day went by that I didn't face an anti-Semitic event and my late father used to tell me this will make you tougher, by dealing with it.

DM: Have you ever felt unsafe wearing a 'kippah' in Canada or anywhere in the world?

BERNIE FARBER: Yeah I have felt guarded when I was in certain places. When I was in East Jerusalem, yes I did. Nothing ever happened. When I was in Paris a few years ago and know in Yiddish we have a term Davka, you know you do something just because you want to prove a point. And I did put on a 'kippah' and walk down the street and nobody paid any attention to me. I mean really, much of it sometimes depends on just where you are and who you run into. And look there can be no.. it's clear to me that the range of migration that we have seen now in the last, certainly the last five years, the number of Muslim immigrants and Syrian immigrants coming, by the way not just to Germany, but to many European countries and coming here to Canada. We've had over 20,000 Syrian immigrants coming here and yet we have seen this kind of a situation develop here and I think it is because we have learned in interesting ways how to integrate newcomers here into this country. So for example here in Toronto, my own synagogue has sponsored a Syrian family that came here and when we had a potluck dinner at our synagogue they came very fearful into the synagogue. And when we sat down and actually spoke with them they said look, we were brought up in a certain way. We were brought up to really detest Jews, we know nothing about Jews. And over the course of the year, we've all become family now it's, it's easy for both of us to communicate. So it takes time. I mean you know you expose people to different things and minds get changed.

DM: Angela Merkel has said, called it a new anti-Semitism and does this make it more complicated or challenging to deal with if it is coming from Muslim migrants in Germany.

BERNIE FARBER: Well, yes and no. I mean I always wonder what the term "new anti-Semitism" means anti-Semitism is anti-Semitism. It's Jew hatred. It's coming from a different place. But I don't want to belie the fact that anti-Semitism from the extreme right is still very prevalent in Germany. And you know there is a growth of fascist movements in Neo Nazi movements there and we have to be aware of it, but at the same time new Muslim immigrants who are coming in, who have no concept of the democratic ideals that, you know, that Germany has now enveloped and the changes, there have been incredible changes made in Germany. You know after World War II, the Jewish-German community was decimated. Today there are over 200,000 Jews living in Germany with as Deidre told you, a very vibrant life. So we cannot let one incident be all of a sudden, the guiding light for, you know, for us in terms of how we behave ourselves in Germany.

DM: The Department for Research and Information on Anti-Semitism, which is a Berlin based NGO, says there are two to three incidents of anti-Semitism, just in Berlin every day. What do you think of the German government's response so far?

BERNIE FARBER: I think it has to be more robust. I think that they have, I think they believed a false dichotomy. After the war, they did, they really found ways to change. It took them a couple of generations to do so, but I've been to Germany, I've seen the German education system. That generation, post-war really did change and really did accept a lot of the guilt for their, you know, for the actions of their fathers and grandfathers. And we did see a healthy change and then there has been kind of a new revolution in Germany, where a whole new set of immigrants have come in and things have changed yet again. So it's really up to the German government to figure this one out and it might mean that they have to put in more aspects in the school and more training in the school. They haven't done that yet.

DM: Given the history of the Holocaust though, does Germany have a greater responsibility than other nations when it come..?

BERNIE FARBER: Absolutely. Germany has a huge responsibility to be kind of the canary in the mine, in one sense, and lead the way in terms of dealing with anti-Semitism. And they know how to do it. They've done it once, they can do it again. And also to be very clear, anti-Semitism is not just a German problem. We just saw the hate crime statistics released here in Canada. And once again it's the Jewish community that is the most targeted community in this country when it comes to anti-Semitism. We're not facing the kind of assaultive behavior that we've seen in Germany, but it's only really one step away. And so all governments have to really come to grips with this.

DM: Thank you so much for joining us.

BERNIE FARBER: Thanks Duncan.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Bernie Farber is a human rights advocate, social justice consultant and former director of the Mosaic Institute. He was in our Toronto studio. Joining me now to talk about the German government's response is Sabine Sparwasser, the German ambassador to Canada. She is in our Ottawa studio. Hello.

SABINE SPARWASSER: Hello. Good morning.

DM: What do you think of what Bernie Farber just had to say?

SABINE SPARWASSER: I think I agree with everything Deidre Berger and Bernie Farber just said. This attack on this young men wearing a 'kippah' has been a shame for Germany and I have to say I'm very glad that the reaction was swift, the reaction as much from the political side, as from the public side. We had immediately a number of demonstrations where people joined, I think Deidre has mentioned that earlier, where people joined in wearing the 'kippah'. We had very strong statements from our chancellor, who said, we must win that battle against anti-Semitism and she said and acknowledged that there is a new growing anti-Semitism in Germany, as well. And our foreign minister has made it very clear that any attack on Jewish life in Germany, is an attack on all of us. So I think that shows that we really took and take the incident very, very seriously. Having said that, you need to look at what can be done in order to prevent things from being like that.

DM: Well the German commissioner for Jewish life has been appointed, he starts his job in a couple of weeks, explain what his mandate is.

SABINE SPARWASSER: Yeah, he is, actually he's been selected by, partly by the Jewish community in Germany and by government. He has a mandate directly for the whole of government. And he's mandated by the chancellor and he will at first, I think, collect data and try and understand where this anti-Semitism, these new sources of anti-Semitism come from because they're diverse. Both Bernie and Deidre mentioned there are obviously new imports, we have new migration in Germany and a lot of people who come have grown up in countries that teach anti-Semitism or teach anti-Israel attitudes. But I think it would be very, much too easy to point just to that. I think there is a lot of homegrown anti-Semitism, as well. And if you look at most anti-Semitic incidents in Germany they are actually committed by far-right Germans. We have had in Europe and not only in Europe, in the last few years, a rise of nationalism. We have had a coarsening also of language where taboos can be broken, where minorities can be ostracised and that kind of thing leads also. Then in the next step when you have dehumanised minorities, it can lead them to violence and I think we need to address that in our new commissionary, whose name is Felix Klein. He comes from the Foreign Service and he will collect data, will try and understand exactly where the problem lies. And I think we will look, as Bernie Farber recommended, we are going to look very much education, at education, but also reaching out to all the segments of our population. I thought it was very encouraging yesterday that a group of Muslims in Germany, actually led by a woman Seyran Ates has put out a hashtag #WeAreAllJews, and you see a lot of Muslims living in Germany with the 'kippah', showing themselves with the 'kippah'. I mean these kind of activities need to be encourage, but also we need to increase Holocaust education. We need to increase education in our schools so that anti-Semitism can't find a place in Germany.

DM: A number of organisations, as you've said, are reporting that anti-Semitism is on the rise in Germany. German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, says it is a new form of old hatred and let's have a listen to what she had to say about it.

SOUNDCLIP

[Through interpreter] We have a new phenomenon, as we have many refugees among whom there are for example people of Arab origin, who bring another form of anti-Semitism into the country. Unfortunately anti-Semitism existed before that.

DM: That's German Chancellor, Angela Merkel on Israel's Channel 10 News following the attack on two Jewish men wearing ‘Kippot’. When she talks about it being, you know, a new form of an old hatred, does it make it more difficult to deal with if it comes from migrants rather than the far-right?

SABINE SPARWASSER: Yeah. I would still say, if you look at statistics, 10 percent of anti-Semitic incidents and violence has been committed by people who have a migration background. So the big, big majority of incidents come from extreme-right, sort of homegrown anti-Semitism. So I think it would be too easy to just push it off and say it's because we have a growing Muslim population that anti-Semitism is on the rise. We need to look deeper and we need to look into our own population, into the rise of nationalism and xenophobia in our, in our own sort of German population and not just looking towards immigrants. Having said that it is obviously clear that when people, we had more than 1.2 million refugees in the last few years come to Germany. When people come from country where they are being taught all their lives that Israel is the oppressor state and that Jews are their enemies, it is understandable that, that doesn't change over time. We need to work on it. We need to do it now. We need to work on it in our schools and we need to work in integration classes for refugees who come to Germany that Israel is for Germany and the existence of Israel is for Germany, part of our raison d'etat and that any attack on Jews and any attack on Jewish life in Germany is an attack on all of us. So to make it very, very clear that anti-Semitism has no place in our country.

DM: We just got a few seconds to wrap up. But I mean at the rally in Berlin this week there were thousands of non-Jews and is important to say including a Muslim women who are wearing 'Kippot' to show solidarity with the Jewish community, in brief, what would you say to Jewish-Canadians who are thinking of visiting Germany?

SABINE SPARWASSER: I think you should go and visit Germany. I think you will find that there is remarkable Jewish life, it's a very, very lively city in particular in Berlin, with Jewish life and I think it will be a very good experience.

DM: Sabine Sparwasser, thank you very much for joining us.

SABINE SPARWASSER: Thank you.

DM: Sabine Sparwasser is the German ambassador to Canada. She was in our Ottawa studio. Coming up in our next half hour, a new documentary chronicles one man's journey back after a vicious attack that left him for dead. I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

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Five years after a violent attack, musician Scott Jones shares his story of fear and forgiveness

Guests: Laura Marie Wayne, Scott Jones

DM: I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current. On October 12th 2013 Scott Jones life changed forever. It happened outside a bar in New Glasgow Nova Scotia. He was stabbed in the throat and in the back. The attack left him paralysed from the waist down. The man responsible pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 10 years in prison. But more than four years later the impact of that violent moment continues to reverberate.

SOUNDCLIP

Going through this again. It's hard because [unintelligible] between feeling numb and feeling really emotional about it. I'm sitting here on the street where I was attacked and I feel again like it's surreal. It's like I'm disconnected.

DM: That's Scott in a scene from Love Scott an intimate new film directed by his close friend Laura Marie Wayne. Screening this week in Toronto as part of the Hot Docs film festival. Scott Jones and Laura Marie Wayne join me in studio. Hello to you both.

SCOTT JONES: Hello.

DM: Scott. The attack, it very nearly took your life. The first thing I want to ask is how are you doing now?

SCOTT JONES: Well it's been quite the process, quite the journey and it's never one thing. It's never black and white. So up and down, constantly learning and changing and I've been lucky to have a close friend with me all the way to help me through with such a beautiful project as Love Scott.

DM: You're paralysed. How has that impacted your life?

SCOTT JONES: Well... Eh... We could be here all day talking about the ways in which paralysis has affected me and just the physical aspects. But there's a whole bunch of emotional and spiritual implications after an attack like this and an injury such as paralysis; obviously reduced access, physical barriers social circle getting smaller because not all the places where my friends socialise are accessible and a lifelong journey with myself and really learning to love myself for who I am. Yeah. That's a big question.

DM: A huge question and I'm wondering that's exactly what you wanted to explore and some of this Laura. When did the idea of making the film come to you?

LAURA MARIE WAYNE: Also a big question and we've talked about it a lot because as soon as I learned Scott was attacked I flew to be with him. So I arrived I was studying film making in Cuba and I arrived to Halifax where Scott was in the hospital five days after he'd been attacked. And even in that first trip I somehow knew I needed to bring my camera. So at that time it wasn't clear that we were going to make this feature film. But it was clear that the camera needed to come that somehow there was some power in having this tool with, some kind of justice and catharsis that would come through bringing the camera. And so we did it a little bit of filming right at that time. And then about a year after that we made that decision together. I had graduated from film school and I ask Scott: 'So do you want to do something? You want to make something?' And he said: 'Yes'. And so I put together this like a little production plan and it was actually on the anniversary, so the one year anniversary of his attack that we sort of formally began the process and did our first filming.

DM: And then Scott on that one year anniversary I imagine you're wrestling with all kinds of different emotions. What goes into your decision to decide to make a film and share this with everyone?

SCOTT JONES: Well yeah like Laura said it was a very organic process and it was much smaller at the time. You know when we set about doing that one year anniversary trip. Every October for me is really difficult and I expected that to be a really hard one because it was the first year. So I was actually really looking forward to having something to do, a trip around Cape Breton starting with revisiting the place where I was attacked. And being there with my close friend was- yes - a much better option for me than being alone in my room and not being able to talk to anyone.

DM: Why was it so important for you to go back to the scene of the attack?

SCOTT JONES: That was important for me in a ritualistic way to go back and honor that place of great change. And even though it's such a horrible thing it's something that holds power regardless of it being negative or positive. It was just so much has happened because of that spot and so it was really important to go there and to just see what came up.

DM: What did come up?

SCOTT JONES: Well you heard it in that clip, a lot of flip flopping between pain and numbness and just grappling with the new reality that I was in and I think at that point in time I can hear it in my voice. I'm still very much in shock.

DM: What was it like for you Laura when Scott suggested you should go back to the scene and you should film it?

LAURA MARIE WAYNE: Well I knew that it was a privilege in a way to be invited into this very vulnerable delicate space like to be asked to be the witness to this process. And when we went there, like I just remember sitting in the car and it was like I could barely breathe you know because the energy was so high and it was just such- I think it was also sort of, and correct me if I'm wrong, but my memories it was one of the first times that you were even sort of allowing yourself to start to revisit memories from that night, because so much focus had gone into healing and being in the moment and just learning how to move forward. And so when we went back there it was almost like this first chance for you to just open the lid a little bit on starting to revisit that night and some of the feelings that were coming up around that.

DM: And it is very much about your healing. The film is about your journey and going deep into what your experiencing. But there is also a very clear message that you were concerned about the attack being recognised as a hate crime. Why was that a concern for you?

SCOTT JONES: Often in these cases you know the justice system says you 'Oh you're charged with attempted murder and that's good enough really. And there's no need for a hate crime charge'. And for me having gone through that as a gay individual and saying I believe this is a hate crime and that not being heard and not really being investigated that kind of erases that aspect of who I am. And I think race is so much learning from society. And, okay, charge someone with attempted murder and they go away to jail. But what did we learn from all this.

LAURA MARIE WAYNE: Yes if we can name the attack for what it was then how can we even begin to have the appropriate conversations around it?

DM: There an amazing moment Scott. You know a week after the attack has happened you're in the hospital by people who are coming to you and saying 'What can we do to help? How can you know how can we make things better?' And you say 'Don't be afraid.' Why did you say don't be afraid. And why has it become such a model for you now.

SCOTT JONES: Well in that moment I think I recognized that- I knew before this attack that I lived a lot of my life in fear and that as a gay man most of my life I've been in the closet and I had to put on who I was in an acceptable way. And so I just was beginning to wake up to the fact that so many decisions were determined by fear. Every environment that I went into I would have to alter my demeanour so that people couldn't tell that I was gay. And when I was in the ICU I just it hit me that I was petrified my whole community and family were really scared. And the man who attacked me was really scared as well. And I just wanted to say don't be afraid and to just embrace- Really not eradicate fear completely but to look at our fears and realise how much they influence who we are and how we are with others. And that was a big part of my recovery obviously as well.

DM: Apart of your recovery when are you afraid now?

SCOTT JONES: Radio interviews scare me.

[Laughter]

LAURA MARIE WAYNE: Film premieres scare me as well. I don't know honestly. I think I'm just more aware of my fear so I'm afraid at various moments but I take pause and kind of analyse.

DM: What do you do to overcome the fear?

LAURA MARIE WAYNE: I don't know what overcoming. Like I don't know about that narrative of- I've overcome the fear it's more just recognising that it's there and kind of maybe passing through life, being aware and maybe one day you'll be able to live with less fear. But it's all about individual experience. I think you know as a woman you can identify to this fear that you must carry with you in life, as a gay man as a disabled man like there are these fears that we all carry with us.

DM: At various points in the film we see Scott, you just pushing your limits. And there's this powerful moment where you decide to stand at a public speaking gathering. Let's hear some of that tape.

SOUNDCLIP

I have thought for the last year and a half I've done a lot of speaking and conducting choirs and I've just every time I do a speaking gig, I've been thinking about how I really want to stand and I want to challenge myself to do that and I never do. And so today I would like to stand and challenge for myself and I feel like that's what it's all about. That's what I've been talking about I guess is being vulnerable with all of you and with everyone and the importance of vulnerability. And I feel really vulnerable right now. Thank you.

[Applause]

I was actually going to say that when I finally stand that I would like everyone to start screaming and clapping yelling at the top of your lungs.

[Laughter]

All right here we go.

[Cheers and applause]

DM: As you listen to that Scott, take me back to that moment. What was going through your mind?

SCOTT JONES: It was a very I felt very exposed and very very vulnerable like I said maybe three times. There were about over a thousand people there and I felt like it was a scary moment but one that I really wanted to do.

DM: Why did you want to do it? Why was it so important to you?

SCOTT JONES: I guess demonstrating that level of vulnerability in front of a large group of people and the symbolism of getting up.

DM: Laura what was it like for you to watch Scott standing up on stage in front of everybody?

LAURA MARIE WAYNE: Well I found it incredibly moving. The first time that I saw Scott stand up which wasn't in front of an audience. It was just actually quite soon after we'd started our filming process and it was the first time that he had stood up outside of the hospital, outside of the rehab center so he was in nature, and yes, to me it was so symbolic of his resilience and his choice to just keep going and stand in love and stand in the power of everything he believes in.

DM: You mentioned in that speech Scott that you are leading a choir and I want to play a little bit of the performance that you ended up sharing in the film.

SOUNDCLIP

[Choir singing]

DM: Such a beautiful arrangement such a beautiful song. That's Both Sides Now by Joni Mitchell. What does that song mean to you Scott?

SCOTT JONES: It's kind of a mix of sad and happy. The lyrics to that song resonate with me because of that.

DM: It is about her looking back and I wonder well what do you think she means when she says you know to look at love from both sides?

SCOTT JONES: Oh she means the good and the bad terrors and clouds and life right. There's the time she's been hurt by love and the times that she just was so excited by love. She ends with the negative, though. So we always laugh at this melancholic [unintelligible].

LAURA MARIE WAYNE: [Laughs].

SCOTT JONES: But Laura I mean people in the film, people in the who are watching that performance are wiping away tears. Why do you think the song had such an impact on people as they were watching Scott leading this choir?

LAURA MARIE WAYNE: I mean I think it's moving to see Scott in his element anyways you know and to be surrounded by these beautiful voices and the words also take on the meaning that so particular to his story too. You know I've looked at life from both sides now because there is really this sort of decisive point where it was almost like the before and the after. Who could have imagined all the things that were going to happen and all the ways that this attack would touch you and touch the people around you and everything that you would feel because of what happened. None of us could have imagined any of that you know. So there was sort of like this before a period of life knowing it in a different way, and after. And so I think that the song directly speaks in a way to Scott's experience.

DM: Music, Scott, was an important part of your 'before' life but it kept on being an important part. How important was music to your healing process?

SCOTT JONES: Extremely important. We started rehearsing with a choir of about 10-12 people in the cafeteria at the rehab where I was staying and it's always been cathartic but even more so now. And music took on more of an activist role as well and using music to create change. I think as a gay person you're always kind of activism minded and hopefully you're wanting to make things better for queer individuals. But after this I just really was fuelled by this experience and wanting to use music to create change.

DM: As part of your own healing process. Another remarkable thing that you do is that you write a letter to Shane Matheson the man who attacked you. What did it mean for you to write that letter?

SCOTT JONES: Well it was all part of a process of forgiveness for me which I've come to realise is you know a lifelong process. And the letter was important in articulating some of my thoughts regarding Shane and working towards a deeper level of forgiveness.

DM: What happened with the letter?

SCOTT JONES: It hasn't been sent yet but since day one I've wanted to reach out to Shane. And so when I'm ready it will be sent.

DM: Have you ever had an opportunity to meet him? He's been in prison for, he was sentenced to 10 years.

SCOTT JONES: He was at the sentencing we were in the same room and I forgave him publicly and he apologised.

DM: Would you still like to meet him?

SCOTT JONES: Yes. Yeah. There are.

DM: I'm sure there are many people Scott who wonder how difficult was it for you to forgive him.

SCOTT JONES: Yes and people often wonder about how they might be able to handle a situation like this and you just don't know until you're in it and you just do. It's something that that comes with time.

DM: What has scarred taught you about what it takes to forgive, Laura?

LAURA MARIE WAYNE: Well I have learned through Scott that forgiveness is a process and a journey. And as he says like a choice that you make every day. It's not something you do once and then it's done. It's like it's something that you're constantly asked to- It's almost like a state of being, to just continuously choose to stay in a state of forgiveness.

DM: One of the things that's amazing about the film, Laura, is that you're not an invisible narrator. Your love for Scott is very clear throughout the movie and the film and I'm wondering what is it about him that inspires that feeling?

LAURA MARIE WAYNE: Well in my opinion it's pretty hard not to be in love with this man.

[Laughter].

LAURA MARIE WAYNE: I mean from the time that Scott and I met we were sort of kindred spirits. And I've always been touched by his humor, his sensitivity, the depth of his character. You know Scott is like an old soul who goes through life with such an open vulnerable heart. You know that's why I say it's just been such an honour and privilege to have so much time with him over these last four years and to bear witness to his journey because it's been exquisitely beautiful.

SCOTT JONES: Laura, the honour is all mine.

LAURA MARIE WAYNE: Well if you say so [laughs].

SCOTT JONES: She is saying this but you have taught me so much about the way that I want to live my life with such an open heart and giving space for others to feel what they need to feel. I love you.

DM: And you also wanted to share your love the way you see him with others. Why was that?

LAURA MARIE WAYNE: I mean I think [laughs] I'm sure this is what you're asking. I can just confide in you that as we were making the film obviously there was a really important social message that needed to be heard. But then I also had this like secret intention that through the film Scott would meet the love of his life. And so I mean I thought about that when I was editing like in certain parts to just make it known. Like you know he's single and like he looks really good in this angle.

[Laughter]

LAURA MARIE WAYNE: And I knew like a lot of gay men would come see the film. And surely among the masses Scots Prince Charming might be waiting.

DM: So - and Scott is covering his face right now in embarrassment - But Bob you know I'm hoping that perhaps that ends up happening. What do you hope is that is the message and how this film ends up getting received by the world?

SCOTT JONES: My wife Laura said finding my Prince Charming.

[Laughter]

SCOTT JONES: Like Laura's side of the social message and in particular yeah the importance of analysing hate crime law and how it supports vulnerable communities.

DM: Or doesn't support.

SCOTT JONES: Sorry. Yes, doesn't support. And the ways that we experience trauma and the ways that we experience forgiveness and the ways we talk to the person inside, and Laura has done a beautiful job of crafting this film to get people to think about how kind we are with ourselves and that person that we've been carrying with us since we were really young. We often when we harden as adults we mistreat them and this film brings us to a moment of reflection at the end of just accepting.

DM: Scott, Laura, it's a real pleasure. Good luck with the film.

LAURA MARIE WAYNE: Thank you so much Scott.

SCOTT JONES: Thank you.

DM: Scott Jones is a musician from Nova Scotia. He's now studying music education at the University of Toronto. Laura Marie Wayne is the Director of Love Scott which is screening in Toronto this week as part of the Hot Docs film festival. Scott and Laura Marie were with me in studio in Toronto. And that's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio 1 for Q when guest host J.L. Richardson will discuss the impact of the Bill Cosby verdict with John Paul, a black Canadian comedian who once revered him. And remember you can always take The Current with you to go on the CBC Radio app. It's free. Free. From the App Store or Google Play. Earlier on in the program we discussed the rise of anti-Semitism in Germany after the whipping of a man wearing a 'kippah' in Berlin. The attack isn't the only incident that has many Germans outraged. The Echo awards Germany's most important music prize honored a controversial rap duo this year who used anti-Semitic language in their lyrics. They rap about quote 'Doing another holocaust' and brag about having physiques quote 'more defined than Auschwitz prisoners'. Their victory led several other echo winners to return their awards and this week the German music industry announced it is scrapping the awards completely. German rock icon Marius Mueller Westernhagen has won seven Echos in a career spanning more than four decades and he says he's returning them all. We'll leave you with his song Freiheit which means liberty and political freedom. I'm Duncan McCue. Chi miigwetch thanks for listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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[Song: Freiheit]

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