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The Current Transcript for April 20, 2018

Host: Laura Lynch

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

We are sleeping and suddenly we heard voices. They started flashing lights on the window and then they marched us off. I was 14.

LAURA LYNCH: And that was the terrifying start of Grace Acan's eight years as a prisoner of the Lord's Resistance Army of Uganda. She bore two children by a man she was given to. One, a boy, died before she was finally able to escape. Grace Acan is here today to share her harrowing story and to urge the world to help women and children who are used and abused in war. That is in half an hour. After that and out of this world experience with the price tag to match.

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The ultimate goal here that we as a human civilization start to extend ourselves into space. We want our customers to feel like they've stepped into a different world.

LL: Frank Bunger is planning to open a hotel in space. Yes you heard that right. By 2022, if you want a room you better start saving now. Even without a pool or a luxury spa the cost for a nearly two weeks day will run more than nine million dollars. But it is promising a room with a view from high above the earth. But we are starting today with a different kind of high.

SOUNDCLIP

We use 420 is our secret code for talking about marijuana in front of our parents, cops, teachers and nobody knew what we were talking about. But now that the secret code is gone.

LL: Gone like a puff of smoke. We'll look back to the origins of 420 and ahead to a time when 420 may be just a day for hazy memories of high times past. I'm Laura Lynch and this is the Friday edition of The Current.

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Where does 420 come from? Meet the men who coined the phrase and lit up a movement

Guests: Andrew Potter, Dave Reddix, Steve Capper

LL: Depending on where you are in Canada today there may be a certain vibe and an unmistakable scent in the air. That's because today is 4-20, the most important day on the calendar for marijuana activists around the world. And for Canadian pot aficionados, this is an especially significant 4-20 because it's the last one before cannabis led legalisation takes effect in this country. To put the occasion in perspective I'm joined by the people who unwittingly started it all. Dave Reddix and Steve Capper call themselves the 4-20 Waldo's and we've reached them in Marin County California. Hello.

DAVE REDDIX: Hello.

STEVE CAPPER: Hello. Good morning. How are you?

LL: I'm fine, thanks. Hey, Dave, there's a lot in this story that requires explaining but for starters why do you call yourselves the Waldos?

DAVE REDDIX: We used to hang out on a on campus at Santa [[unintelligible]] High School right in the middle of campus in between classes. And we'd watch people, students, go by and teachers and we do impressions and make jokes about them and try to crack each other’s up. So you know we call ourselves the Waldos. We sat on a wall in the middle of campus there.

STEVE CAPPER: Yeah we didn't do jokes to their face. We just did it amongst ourselves.

LL: [Laughs] Given your connection to 4-20 and the time in the era we're talking about, people are going to picture a bunch of hippie stoners. What were the Waldos like back in 1971?

DAVE REDDIX: When we weren't athletes but we weren't jocks. We were seekers. We were guys that were interested in meeting new people and discovering weird places. That's what we were like.

STEVE CAPPER: We were we were not what you maybe see in the movies a quintessential type stoners. We were- well I was an academic getting academic awards. Dave was an award winning filmmaker. We were not what we call slackers. We were very active people.

DAVE REDDIX: We were not stupid stoners like Pikoli and you know fast times [unintelligible]. We had a brain on our head. We just liked to get a little high once in a while.

STEVE CAPPER: There was there was definitely the culture of the 70s going on, which means we were wearing bell bottom blue jeans, scarves, custom Country Western type shirts, leather vests and all kinds of cultural stuff going on.

LL: There were a lot of theories about how the term 4-20 came about. There was an idea that it was the San Francisco police code for people smoking pot, that it marks Hitler's birthday. What's the true story of the origin of the term 4-20?

DAVE REDDIX: Well let me preface this with, first of all, the Waldos were you know we were seekers and guys looking to do interesting things. We were the guys underneath the football grandstands at high school on Friday nights ,and we were the guys smoking a doobie underneath going what are we doing here, because we weren't interested in the jock thing. So Steve and I and the rest of the Waldos we went on a lot of interesting trips to meet interesting people and strange things. And Steve you can tell her how we got started with the Safari.

STEVE CAPPER: Yes. So one day we're sitting on our wall, the Waldos, and a buddy of mine comes up to me and he says 'hey my brother' - turns out it was his brother in law - he goes 'my brother's in the U.S. Coast Guard and some of the guys in the U.S. Coast Guard are growing pot'. This was out at the point raised Peninsula just about an hour or so northwest of San Francisco. So he said these postcards are growing pot. And for some reason they've determined that their commanding officer might be busting them. And they certainly didn't want to be busted. So they decided to relinquish their pot growing project. They made us a map and said we can pick it. So my friend comes to me, he goes 'hey there's this map, we can go pick this spot. We have permission'. So we decided to meet...

DAVE REDDIX: You know when Steve said 'Hey I've got this map. What do you guys think?' It was like a no brainer. We were 16 year old boys in high school and we always you know looking for weed, especially free weed, and the only thing on our mind was girls, weed and rock and roll. So it was a no brainer. We all decided we'd meet up after school at 4:20 p.m. at the statue of Louis Pasteur on the campus of high school after school. Some of us had some extracurricular activities like a football manager and another guy was on the football team. So we decided to meet that first day at 4:20 p.m. at the statue of Louis Pasteur.

LL: So that's it?

DAVE REDDIX: And then we hopped in Steve's 66 Impala. So we drove out.

LL: Hang on hang on just a second because I just went by. You met at 4:20 after school. Is that where 420 started?

DAVE REDDIX: Yes that's right.

STEVE CAPPER: From the very beginning we would remind each other in the hallway 'we’re going to meet at 4:20 Louis'. So it was originally 4:20 Louis, was the phrase. And after a couple of weeks we dropped Louis and it just we'd see each other in the halls and we'd always smile and say '4:20'. And eventually we didn't find the weed but we continued to use 4-20 as our secret code for talking about marijuana. By the way whenever...

DAVE REDDIX: We used to do this in front of our parents, cops, teachers and nobody knew what we were talking about. But now that the secret code is gone.

LL: [Laughs] Of course. You've been outed a long time ago.

STEVE CAPPER: When we said 4-20 we always had a smile on our face. And to this day, I mean if you know what 4:20 is, pretty much everybody says that they kind of crack up or smile when they say it. It's kind of a challenge to say 4-20 and not smile. Mean you can actually do it. But it's a bit of a challenge.

LL: But how do you explain how that term that you guys just created out of it's a smoky air. It became a slang term the spread so far and wide.

DAVE REDDIX: Well a couple of us had connections to the Grateful Dead. My brother Patrick is known Phil Lesh the bassist from the Grateful Dead for like almost 50 years and is good friends with him. And back around 1974-75 who is on hiatus from the Grateful Dead and he started a couple of solid bands. One of them was called Too Loose To Truck and the other was called Seastone. So my brother Patrick hired me to be a roadie and I would be backstage with Lesh and guys like David Crosby and Terry Haggerty getting high and using 4-20.

LL: So it got, what, the Grateful Dead picked it up and took off from there?

STEVE CAPPER: Right. But also we had younger brothers that picked it up from us. So their class picked it up in the class behind them and then we went off to college and the people we were around in college picked it up from us, and then took it back to their home towns.

LL: Imagine all of that without the help of Twitter or Facebook. It's incredible. Now things have changed a lot since 71. Recreational cannabis is legal in California and several other states. It's coming to Canada. What role do you think 4-20 has had in this path toward legalisation?

DAVE REDDIX: I think it has brought a lot of awareness to people all around the world. The healing powers of marijuana, not just recreationally- It's doing a lot of good things for people with seizures and all kinds of medical problems. So I think it's a great thing that it's legal now.

STEVE CAPPER: The first legislation in California that started medical marijuana and we had nothing to do with, it was Senate Bill 4-20. And then for years the Organization for Reform of Marijuana Laws, they would call to action discussion in Congress on April 20th. So certainly people were cited as a way to be active and interpreted other things as far as we're concerned. It was just a private joke. We thought it was funny. We still think it's a joke. We're not real political. We just encourage people to have a good time, be friendly and angry people cheerfully on 4-20 day.

LL: Given all of that, another big contrast from the early 70s is cannabis is now becoming a really corporate enterprise and I'm wondering do you have any misgivings about marijuana losing that counter-culture underground edge?

DAVE REDDIX: It's kind of lost its mystique because back when we were smoking, you know we were like an outlaw of underground smokers and we're always you know hiding things. We were afraid. We were looking at rear-view mirror. So it was not legal and you could go to jail.

STEVE CAPPER: It was a little bit exciting back then. I mean I wouldn't want it to go back and have people in jail. There were certainly, the air was charge, there was a lot of adrenaline. It really made a brotherhood of smokers.

LL: I'm wondering how different marijuana activists are today? Do you think that they've sold out to the corporate interests when you see what legalisation looks like?

DAVE REDDIX: I don't know. I don't really have an opinion on that. As you know we're not political. But this year is a very special year for the Waldo's because we've teamed up with a company in Oakland California called Chemistry, a manufacturer of vape and cartridges and this year we're releasing our own brand called 4-20 Waldo's 1971. It's a vape pen cartridge and we're having a big party tomorrow for the brand launch but the best part of the whole thing is that 100 percent of the net proceeds go to a charity of our liking which is the Drug Policy Alliance.

LL: Oh I was just going to say you went big business, but now you tell me you're giving all the money away.

STEVE CAPPER: Yes kind of.

LL: Is pot still a part of your lives?

DAVE REDDIX: You know back then we were smoking every day. We measured how to get to a place in joint time. If we're going to go to Lake Tahoe it would be 'Oh. That will be like six or seven joints'. But these days we don't smoke every day. We smoke occasionally. We don't abuse it and we don't you condone children smoking pot.

LL: Okay. Just wondering where marijuana has been legalised, you think 4-20 has lost its relevance?

DAVE REDDIX: No [Cross talking] like it's a joke.

STEVE CAPPER: I don't think it's lost its relevance. Certainly not.

LL: Okay. I just wonder what you guys have to say to all the people across Canada who are celebrating 4-20 today.

DAVE REDDIX: We just want to let them know that if you're going to a public event where there's lots of people and you're bringing stuff, we encourage you all to be kind to each other and have fun. But please pick up your mess when you leave.

STEVE CAPPER: And and if you're over 50 be sure to ask your doctor if 4-20 day is right for you.

LL: [Laughs] Okay, I. Gentlemen thank you very much. I hope you have a good 4-20.

STEVE CAPPER: You too.

DAVE REDDIX: Happy 4-20.

LL: Dave Reddix and Steve Capper two of the Waldo's behind the original 4-20. They're in Marin County California.

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LL: As Canada inches closer to legalising marijuana, activists will have to decide if 4-20 should stick to its roots as a day of activism, or continue its evolution into a day for celebration corporate titans and all. The future direction 4-20 takes may depend on what happens with Canada's new pot laws. My next guest says Ottawa may need to re-examine some potential pitfalls in the legislation. Andrew Potter is an associate professor of Canadian studies at McGill University. He once ran for Canada's now defunct Marijuana Party. Andrew Potter joins me from Montreal. Hello.

ANDREW POTTER: How are you doing?

LL: I'm good. What were you thinking as you listen to Dave Reddix and Steve Capper reminisce about [unintelligible]?

ANDREW POTTER: I was thinking that it was a blast form the past. I mean that whole interview was like one long rehash of my childhood.

LL: Oh really [laughs].

ANDREW POTTER: There's a PhD thesis written on a whole number of aspects of that. I mean it was a fascinating interview. I really enjoyed that.

LL: On the eve of legalisation in Canada though, how relevant do you think that 4-20 movement is now?

ANDREW POTTER: It still is, because first of all it's not legal yet. Right. I mean it's still working its way through Parliament and it's hit a few speed bumps. So we can't assume anything right now. This is Canadian politics and anything can happen. But also I think it's not like the daily legalisation happens suddenly you know the flowers bloom and you know the Grateful Dead are singing and everything's fine. There's been interesting case recently in Holland. One of the jurisdictions we've long held up as the sort of the epitome of of an open regime towards marijuana, it's actually been steadily ratcheting up its control over the past few years. It just announced the city of the Hague is going to clamp down on the public smoking marijuana around schools and around train stations and public areas. So this is one of the things where legalisation is the beginning of a process not the end of one.

LL: How have your views around pot legislation changed since your activist’s days when you were with the Marijuana Party?

ANDREW POTTER: So I got involved as the Marijuana Party not because- I wasn't like your previous guest. I wasn't a heavy pot smoker. I wasn't into the scene much. Basically what happened with someone very close to me got caught up in the legal system for growing marijuana literally in the residents room and got thrown out of school. And they were getting ready to throw the book at him. He was going to get a criminal record out of it. And the federal election was coming up and I wasn't really fond of any of the parties that were on offer anyway. So I thought I'd put two and two together and just run on a platform that actually I cared about. And for me the major issue that I was running on was the fact that for all the cultural comedy and high spirits surrounding marijuana use, like we just heard in the previous interview, there's a dark side to it, which is that people do get jail, people do get railroaded into the into the criminal justice system. And is largely members of disadvantaged communities or minorities. And so that for me it was what I got involved in the first place, was to try and get ourselves to a regime where that's not happening,.

LL: Right and now you're an academic and you're actually helping to organise a conference on Canada's legalisation of marijuana. What concerns do you have about Canada's new laws?

ANDREW POTTER: Yes. So this is the conference next week at the Institute for Health and Social Policy at McGill that we organised, the guy named Daniel Winestock who runs the Institute. And we were actually throwing like the kitchen sink into it. So because you know marijuana legalisation touches on- It's amazing just how many issues it touches on, everything from health of communities, health of individuals and miners all the way to questions of inter-provincial relations, federal provincial relations, our international treaties, and everything from the production and distribution marketing, branding. So we have seminars and titles and plenaries on virtually every aspect of the policy.

LL: But do you have particular concerns about the legislation that's supposed to be coming into effect?

ANDREW POTTER: Yes there's a few and it's often hard to sort of judge you know what the perverse outcomes might be something this complicated. But one in particular strikes me as something we need to look at which is that right now you have a whole lot of dealers and providers servicing communities and kids in high schools and what have you across Canada, and the Government's moving to a regime where they're going to license a handful of very large providers that are going to sort of moving to a regime of big marijuana. The analogy is sort of used is what they did in Iraq when they went in and the deep ossification the military and the public service. If you've been a member of the previous regime you weren't allowed to serve in the new government. And that's kind of what they're doing now. If you're a current drug dealer, you're basically being sort of left out in the cold. And there's no evidence or I guess the concern would be that these people would have no reason to simply give up drug dealing, if they're not being brought into the legal market. And so we can end up in a situation where there's a handful of large providers but also a whole bunch of people who have been dealing and have production and distribution networks in place and with no real incentive to give it up other than the fact that it's now completely illegal. And so we might be in a situation where we end up actually ramping up the war on drugs instead of in step alleviating it. That's one possible concern.

LL: Do you think the black market will flourish or exist? And I gather that the advantage would be with buying from them as it's going to be cheaper.

ANDREW POTTER: Cheaper and or just- I mean right now you've got a hearing kickback it's going to be available through the SAQ in Ontario will be available to the LCBO. That's not how people are accustomed to buying marijuana and if they have to get up and drive to the SAQ to get. It maybe they don't want to do that. Maybe they just want to call up their buddy who will drop it off in the evening.

LL: So in that sense, Andrew, do you think that the activists who are going to mark 4-20 today is the battle over?

ANDREW POTTER: I don't think the battle is over. What they need to do is keep their eye on the ball which is to make sure that whatever happens at legalisation we don't make things worse. I mean the first precept of medicine is first do no harm right. And I think that should be the guiding principle of the policy going forward. That is you know it's not a great regime we have. People do get caught up in the criminal justice system, minors have access to it, it feeds it feeds criminal activity and organised crime. As long as the new regime doesn't exacerbate those problems or have other incentive make it worse then, good. But we should be willing to- like Holland is doing. It just our policies on the fly as we move forward. And so I think that's what the activists should keep their eyes on.

LL: Andrew I'm sorry we're running out of time. We're going to have to leave it there but we will watch as things go forward. Thank you very much.

ANDREW POTTER: You're welcome.

LL: Andrew Potter is an associate professor of Canadian studies at McGill University. He's in Montreal. If you'd like to keep the conversation about 4-20 and marijuana laws going you can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook or send us an email from our website at cbc.ca/thecurrent. CBC News is next. We're going to talk about strength and survival with the woman who survived eight years in the Lord's Resistance Army after that. I'm Laura Lynch. You're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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Grace Acan spent years as a captive of Ugandan rebels, now she helps casualties of war rebuild their lives

Guest: Grace Acan

LL: Hello I'm Laura Lynch and you were listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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LL: Still to come: Space tourism may be on the horizon. We'll hear from an executive who says his company is building a luxury space hotel that will be open for business in just three years. But first, surviving the Lord's Resistance Army.

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LL: They were known as The Aboke girls, 139 young women kidnapped in northern Uganda in 1996. They were snatched from their school in Aboke by the Lord's Resistance Army. Joseph Kony, the rebels infamous leader, hope to gain international attention and the girls plight certainly accomplished that. Everyone from Oprah to Nelson Mandela to Pope John Paul the Second called for their release. More than a hundred girls were released almost immediately but 30 girls would be held for years. Grace Acan was one of them. She spent nearly eight years in LRB hands giving birth twice while in captivity. She now works with women and children affected by war along with the conjugal slavery in War Project which documents cases of forced marriage in conflict situations. Grace Acan joins me in our Toronto studio. Hello.

GRACE ACAN: Hello.

LL: Thank you for coming in. I'm wondering, first of all, what you remember about the night that you and the other students, your girl's boarding school, were kidnapped.

GRACE ACAN: The [unintelligible] that passed through the night crossing that field, that big field in the school, going outside the gate into the cold night. Yes. That was really terrible. I can't forget that whenever I go to school. I always remember.

LL: Just tell me what happened that night, you were sleeping.

GRACE ACAN: Yes we were sleeping and suddenly we had voices, like male voices.

LL: And what happened?

GRACE ACAN: And they started flashing lights on the window, up window glasses. So these are some big girls and they started instructing us to open the door. But nobody obeyed. So they had to use their own way to remove that window seal and enter into our dormitory. And started like telling us to get out, tying our hands, while others loot our clothes. Then they match us off.

GRACE ACAN: How old were you?

GRACE ACAN: I was 14.

LL: So as you say they marched you off. And then suddenly later a little while later after you've been marching on, more than 100 of your schoolmates were released. How did that happen?

GRACE ACAN: It was a long day of walk and when you came across somebodies home state. [Unintelligible] gathered call to come together in the presence of headmistress, Sister Akeley.

LL: This was the sister who ran the school.

GRACE ACAN: She was the deputy headmistress.

LL: So she came to where you were, is that what happened?

GRACE ACAN: She followed us. Actually she got caught up with us at her own, at 10 a.m. So she walked all day with us. So we had all these hope that we would be back because we trusted her. We knew she would always do anything to make sure we are safe. And she did her best.

LL: So what did she do?

GRACE ACAN: Previous abduction took place but she would go and talk to the rebels. They leave the girls and so they would listen. And they released the girls.

LL: But this time what happened?

GRACE ACAN: This time again we had the same hope. But it didn't happen. So what they did was they would pick the girls one by one and then they say 'Get up. What's your name? Where do you come from? What are your parents’ names?' And then do tell you to go one side. So here lies one side was bigger than the other. I happened to be on one side that was smaller and that was the side that they said would remain with rebels.

LL: And 100 others were released. Do you have any idea why you were chosen to stay?

GRACE ACAN: It's a mystery to me. Up to now I don't understand because personally, I had knocked my leg in the process of moving. And they had said that whoever wasn't feeling well, who has a problem with their legs should be released. So I went among them why there was one particular man who was really on my case. He was like 'No you have to be there'. So I didn't know why he was doing that. So it was hard to tell why they would choose me.

LL: How did you react when you realised you were going to have to stay?

GRACE ACAN: You know being in the hands of those who are really hostile and have the guns and they were heavily guarding us it was hard to say anything. All he did was started crying but in the process they ordered more soldiers to come and start stepping on us, beating us. So we had to stop and... yes.

LL: I'm sorry. From there on, this was your life for the next several years with the LRA. Tell me what things were like from day to day. You mentioned you were beaten at first. How were you treated as time went by?

GRACE ACAN: There was a tight security. Each one was given- I remember I was given a guard who had a gun you had to move every time wherever I went. So she was instructed not to let me go. And that if I, like if I go missing they would kill her. So it was her life. Protecting me was her life as well.

LL: What were your activities day to day?

GRACE ACAN: We had nothing much to do. Like for the one and a half month that we were moving around in Uganda and villages in Uganda, they would move come to a position where - they call it position - where they would camp and maybe spent a night there. So there was nothing much we could do since we were still new. So we would just reach and see. Then some of us would be escorted to go on freshwater lake for bathing. And then do some small- if they say like making food, preparing food. It's like building cassava. Yes they would give us that to do and then sit, nothing much.

LL: At a certain point you were you were moved to Sudan must now become South Sudan. What happened there? What was your life like there?

GRACE ACAN: From a school to a camp that you don't know whether you survive or not. I think my first impression of the place is like- First of all I was surprised to see such a kind of a well-established settlement by rebels. I didn't know because all these two- Nearly two months that I spent with them in Uganda they had a mobile life, nut here they had settled life, well-established homes. They build houses. So I was surprised and also the other thing that surprised me was the way some of the soldiers who are staying there, like the young soldiers. Some of them were thin. They hardly had what to wear. They really looked lifeless and miserable. So I wondered what life would be like in such a place.

LL: And what was it like?

GRACE ACAN: Indeed that was exactly the life. You had to look for water for long distances. There wasn't enough food and you had to really work so hard to get what to eat, get wild veggies and then maybe feed on the grains that were being supplied by Sudanese government that we had actually to use a grinding stone for making the flour. So it wasn't easy.

LL: So life went from bad to worse for you. Were you ever tempted to run away from that settlement?

GRACE ACAN: I had that in mind. I remember when I would go to fetch water and I would see like aeroplanes passing going towards Juba. I wish like if I could only hold onto the wings but it was hard I couldn't. And to move from that camp back to Sudan was a very big risk because on the way there were like Sudanese SBL soldiers who were really also against LRA and several forests, several big rivers. And so there was a lot actually.

LL: At one point you were you were given to what you call a bush husband. What does that mean?

GRACE ACAN: That was the worst experience but I don't want to discuss that.

LL: Okay I understand. Can I just ask you very briefly do you know what has happened to him, your Bush husband?

GRACE ACAN: He's back.

LL: He's back, in Uganda?

GRACE ACAN: Yes.

LL: Okay. And I want to ask you this too. And you can tell me whether you want to talk about it. You obviously became a mother when you were there. How did you cope with having children while you were being held by the LRA?

GRACE ACAN: It was an easy matter with my experience. There came a point where I realised that what is very important is life. However much you're suffering if you are still alive, the only good thing that you should hold on to is to be alive. And that's what made me move on to at least stay alive because any mistake that I would have made, like to say something that was against the LRA, that'll cost my life. So I learned to do everything, however hard it was, in order to survive and stay alive.

LL: And you had children to take care of. What was your relationship like with your children then?

GRACE ACAN: I think with time having known that I couldn't escape, had no hope that I would come back home again. I thought I would grow old there and die in Sudan. So they are my only relatives were those children. So I had to love them despite the conditions under which I got them, because they were my only close relatives that I would really trust.

LL: And you did love them.

GRACE ACAN: Yes I do.

LL: Which must have made it that much more difficult when your first son died while you were still being held by the LRA. Can you tell me what happened?

GRACE ACAN: It was only sad morning. I don't remember the date. The date was 17 July 2004 when fortunately that was the year I got a chance to come back to Uganda again and really had the hope that one day I'll get back home. So in these one forest where we were hiding, security brought that information that soldiers were coming. So we started running and we ran through this big river and this boy was being carried by one of the girls.

LL: Your son.

GRACE ACAN: Yes my son. I had another child on my back, and then I was very weak. Since the condition really wasn't good. There was no food. And every time you're on the run, you can be attacked three times a day. So it wasn't that easy. So I was really weak as well. I couldn't carry him and I couldn't carry actually both children. So he was being carried by another. We went, as we were entering the river like this a helicopter gun she came - and I didn't see myself but an eyewitness that was close there told me because I was behind a little behind. So a bomb was dropped on him together with the babysitter and both of them died.

LL: I'm so sorry about that. What did this lead to you finally being able to escape or was that later that you escaped?

GRACE ACAN: Escaping LRA was a very difficult thing and must be well planned otherwise you lose your life. Don't ever let anyone know that you are skipping, unless you trust someone. So it was in my heart that I would just get but I wanted to escape in a secure place. So I didn't even want to come through the government. So it was in my mind but I hadn't told anyone. So I had planned to actually talk to this girl was carrying the baby so that we can escape together. But the LRA like they said it took place so fast. Still on that day I nearly lost my life. He passed, when my son was killed at around 11 and my town was almost around 2. So like we continued moving, it was the same soldiers following us until we reach a point. So I didn't get that time that day to really think about what happened, what should they really do. I was again like almost a victim.

LL: Okay so tell me about the day that you did manage to escape?

GRACE ACAN: After the July 17th. We kept on moving like in the forest until one day we were split in a small group of about 20, and in a line where we entered an ambush and that the guide who was before me was shot in the leg. I only saw like gunmen. I would see their hands the way they were like shooting us. And so I threw what I had and I ran through, I escaped through an empty riverbed. Still that was not the day. So like five of us again got together like for about another, like days, we stayed trying to find out where to leave and what next to do. Because we were in a dangerous. So these people decided to desert me because my baby was so noisy and I was on my own for one week. Then later I just got up and say- I was figuring out how to get out. It was in a very risky area. I didn't want to go to the LRA back again. I didn't want to go to the government's soldiers.

LL: You didn't trust anyone.

GRACE ACAN: I didn't trust anyone. So until one day I just got up and say 'God if it is today that I'm going to survive. Then let it be. If it is my last day, then here I am today. I just went out and as soon as I was approaching some courtyard, I met a couple coming to the farm. So they were afraid of me. I was also afraid of them. So I spoke for us and said I was deserted here by LRA, this was what happened to me and explained to them so they were very helpful and they linked up with someone with a bicycle and they took me to some army barracks that was close by and they transported me.

LL: And it wasn't just you, it was also your baby daughter.

GRACE ACAN: Yes with my baby daughter.

LL: What was that moment like when you finally realised I'm out, I've escaped?

GRACE ACAN: Like I said before that the most important thing was life. And when you are alive you can get anything. And it's even worse when you're living in fear. Fear was almost overwhelming me at that time. And then I felt relieved. I felt that now I think to have hope of living again. And I felt like my life would start again after all these hell.

LL: How many years had it been at this point?

GRACE ACAN: Almost eight years.

LL: Eventually after you escape you're reunited with your family. What was that like?

GRACE ACAN: It was a joyful moment. Yes, whoever would see me would cry. But for me I would feel at least I am safe. I'm living in a warm house. Nobody's saying today you have to move, you are running. I was safe and I was well received. I think I was happy.

LL: And your daughter, was she accepted by your family as well?

GRACE ACAN: Exactly. Now they love her. My mom wanted her to call her not grandmother but mom, actually she likes her.

LL: That must have been a wonderful thing for you after all of that.

GRACE ACAN: Yes.

LL: You went back to high school which I think is a remarkable measure of your strength and resilience and then on to university. How were you able to rebuild your life after everything you went through?

GRACE ACAN: When you have a passion for something there's no way you can stop pursuing. Even while I was still in the bush and had no hopes at all or knowing when they would get out, all I would dream of was being in school. So when they came back the year was almost ending. I still had hope that when I go back to school I can change my life. So the following year I rolled back to school despite staying several years out of school. And I was already going to study would that people were way younger than me. I said what I want is to catch up with my education and be somebody in life.

LL: Such determination. Was there ever a time when you were doing that and you say you were starting with people younger than you that you were ready to give up or you were frustrated?

GRACE ACAN: No I wasn't because I knew what I wanted. I knew I should be somebody I shouldn't just abandon studies. That was my main aim.

LL: You knew what you wanted. What did you want?

GRACE ACAN: I wanted to study and have a professional job that I can be like an independent woman would not rely on anybody, but at least be somebody like an educated person.

LL: So you did go through university and you're now working with and researching the experiences of women and children who are affected by war. What help did the women you work with need that they aren't getting?

GRACE ACAN: Currently the major problem is economic problem. The kids are growing up, like how to take care and how to raise them up, to get what to use for raising them, to provide for them. Say in terms of their medical bills, in terms of their studies, in terms of like how to take care of them generally.

LL: I wonder too because because of your own experience, are you able to tell them things that help them heal?

GRACE ACAN: We started doing that a lot. That's from the first steps of a project that we called Dodo. I started by storytelling and really through the sharing they had a lot. And you know when you get to know that you are not the only one suffering, the others has suffered and must have suffered more than you. You get some hope and you pick up from there. If so who suffered so much is moving on with life, what about me. At least it brought hope to the women and they're very- I can say they have improved. I can say that.

LL: They don't feel so alone. I guess the important thing.

GRACE ACAN: They are so much united. They get a lot of peer support from each other, and yes, it has been very helpful.

LL: One of the things that you're doing is bringing together children who were born through forced marriages with their fathers families. Why?

GRACE ACAN: This is not that we like to do that. It sounds bad, but we are in a patrinal society and every child has to inherit what belongs to the father's side. It's very hard for a child to get unless the family is really very kind and they can provide on their maternal side. So like women are facing this challenge whereby. Their children are coming to ask from them like 'Mom where is our home?' Because they only know their home is their father's home. And they don't understand even if their mother used to say 'You shouldn't talk about it because we don't understand the circumstances under which you are born'. They keep on saying 'No I need to know' and become violent to their mothers. So for mothers who are willing, it's not by force. So for mothers who are willing or have approached us, what we do is we try and look for - with the information that they have, with their consent - we try to look for these family. And we first talk to the other side, the paternal family of the child if they're willing. If they're not willing that's fine. Just for the sake of their child to have that kind of confidence, to have that satisfaction that at least even if I'm not getting any support my father is not there, I know they belong here. Besides that, in the future in case the mother isn't around, they can go and then say at least this was my father. I know this is my home and they can have somewhere to stay.

LL: As you told us earlier, your family and your community welcomed you and your daughter back with open arms. Is that the case for all the women that you work with>.

GRACE ACAN: No that's not the case. Other women have been rejected by their own families. They are living in towns. They're trying to move on with life and take care of their children like single mothers.

LL: Is there anything you can do to help with that aspect of things? That's difficult, huh?

GRACE ACAN: Yes. We have one activity that we are doing currently where we try to talk. We are kind of like mediating, trying to talk to these parents to accept their children. These were their children, they were taken from them, why do you refuse now? Nothing has changed. So that's what we're doing.

LL: Has your daughter met with her father's family?

GRACE ACAN: No.

LL: Do you want to say why?

GRACE ACAN: I don't have a specific reason but the fact that she has been accepted by my family is enough.

LL: And your relationship with her now what is it like? How old is she?

GRACE ACAN: She's 14 and about to make 15.

LL: How is your relationship with her?

GRACE ACAN: Very good relationship.

LL: Is she like you determined to go through school and make something of herself as an independent woman?

GRACE ACAN: Yeah she is. She likes sports, we are surprised that she represented her school in the Cross cross-country competition. And yes we are very in good terms. She calls me when she is at school and we are good.

LL: And she knows about her past?

GRACE ACAN: Definitely she knows but I haven't told her directly. But I intend to. 'Have you written a book?' She ask now 'Mommy I heard you have a book'. So I haven't given her the book yet but I intend. I wanted to first grow so that I can explain everything and she understands. I intend to do that.

LL: Do you want justice? Do you want reparations for what you've been through?

GRACE ACAN: Yes I think I deserve, plus the people as well who have gone through similar experiences.

LL: What would you like to see then?

GRACE ACAN: To me justice is addressing the problems that are affecting the women who have suffered, the women or the people who have suffered. So many women were affected. And these men I know some of them have died but their effect continues. So if these women are assisted to heal socially, economically, yes, that would be the best justice to them.

LL: All right, Grace, I thank you so much for coming in and speaking to us about what has been in some parts a difficult past for you but it looks like a great future. Thank you so much.

GRACE ACAN: You're welcome.

LL: Grace Acan was one of over 100 schoolgirls kidnapped by the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda in 1996. She was held for eight years. She now works with women and children affected by war and the conjugal slavery and war project which documents cases of forced marriage in conflict situations. Grace Acan was in our Toronto studio. Well coming up in our next half hour we'll take a trip to space or more accurately a hotel in space. A company says it will have one up there and open for business within three years. It's not cheap though. We'll explore the future of space tourism. I'm Laura Lynch. You're listening to The Current.

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Book a stay at this space hotel in 2022 - if you have $9.5M to spare

Guests: Frank Bunger, John Longsdon, Maxim De Jong

LL: I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

We have main engine start. Engines at maximum thrust [distortion] and liftoff. Liftoff of the Soyuz rocket. As, Jeff Williams [unintelligible] and Guy Laliberté begin their journey to the International Space Station. [Noise]

LL: In 2009 Guy Laliberte became Canada's first space tourists and only the seventh private citizen to travel to the International Space Station. Traveling to space was a childhood dream for the Cirque du Soleil founder as it has been for so many others, although not everyone is ready to move up there permanently.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song: I would like to Visit the Moon]

Well I'd like to use the moon

On a rocket ship high in the air

Yes I'd like to visit the moon

But I don't think I'd like to there

I'd like to look down at the earth from above

I would miss all the places and people I love

So although I might like it for one afternoon

I don't wanna live on the moon

LL: That of course is Ernie from Sesame Street. And Kermit, we've got some good news for you if Frank Bunger has his way. It will soon be possible to go to space just for a visit. Frank Bunker's company Orion Spence says it is building a luxury space hotel. The experience however won't come cheap; nine and a half million dollars U.S. per person. Orion says it already has a long list of prospective clients, once the hotel - which has yet to be built - is up and running in 2022. Frank Bunger is the chief executive of Orion Span and he joins me from San Mateo California. Hello.

FRANK BUNGER: Good morning.

LL: Why do you want to build a hotel in space?

FRANK BUNGER: So my goal in building the hotel is to make space travel more routine. I think it's important that we as a human civilization start to extend ourselves into space. If you think ahead 100 years from today space travel will be a routine occurrence just like getting on an airplane. So the steps between now and then are going to be the exciting part. So I believe that the first steps towards getting people into space more regularly, and potentially living there one day, is to make visiting space more broadly and more easily available.

LL: Okay. Well let's start by getting you to describe the hotel.

FRANK BUNGER: Sure thing. So our station is a it's a single module space station for starters. So it hosts six people at a time; for guests, two crew from Orion Span.

LL: That has one tiny hotel [laughs].

FRANK BUNGER: It's actually more spacious than you might think. It's 5650 cubic feet. And there's also always a additional spacecraft attached, should somebody have a medical emergency or something else happened. So inside there's two private suites that can be configured reconfigured into four depending on what kind of guests We have coming up; couples or individuals. And there's a galley and there is a area we call the radio hub. It's four ports that can attach spacecraft and also consist of additional windows and there's a segment of the spacecraft where we'll have a VR experience virtual reality experience that we're calling that the holodeck.

LL: Sorry. So, what do people do at the holodeck? I mean they're already in space. What do they need virtual reality for?

FRANK BUNGER: It's more a outlet for entertainment of any sort. Virtual Reality untethers from reality in any form. So you could be playing golf back at home or swimming in the ocean. The idea is that for whatever hours remain if people get tired of the many other activities going on then they can immerse themselves in this experience, and also get a little bit of a sense of futurism and attach themselves to science fiction.

LL: What are the many other activities?

FRANK BUNGER: Our core experience is an astronaut experience. We're not so much providing a room with a view, that is obviously part of it, but it's more or we're providing an authentic astronaut experience. So part of that experience is we want our customers to feel like they've stepped into a different world. So they're going to be running experiments they might be growing food in space. They can bring food back down with them as ultimate souvenir. They're going to be doing other scientific experiments that are TBD. There are also be doing a training program both on the ground and when they're aboard are a station. So that training program leads to a certification and our plan is for that certification to mean something with other commercial spaceflight providers in the futur.

LL: E the training and the screening that goes on, I mean I understand that astronaut training is really rigorous, what kind of training do people have to undergo?

FRANK BUNGER: Yes so it's somewhat similar. There's going to be some weightlessness practice. There's going to be some of the swinging around in a boom to make sure that people can tolerate the higher g forces. So it's definitely going to be some of that. We're also going to be doing a phase of training prior to that that will be entirely online and through an application or through a web browser to make it easy. So we're condensing that down into only three months to make it feasible for folks.

LL: Is there anybody that sort of certifies this, that these people are able to - not only physically but psychologically - ready to travel on space?

FRANK BUNGER: So the United States the FAA certifies any sort of space flight at least within a rocket that is once you're in orbit it's actually a little bit fuzzier. There's technically no certifying agency in orbit.

LL: Because there are obviously safety concerns. Alex Ellery is an associate professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering at Carleton University. And I just want you to listen to him.

SOUNDCLIP

The primary concern I would say is that is still very embryonic. It is emergent. We haven't established stringent safety issues. The risk is that basically when you are strapping yourself into a rock, which is essentially what we're talking about, although rocketry is well understood, there's always the element of the unexpected. And of course will not be in anyone's interests, no matter how they approach it, is to have disasters early on because that will kill it.

LL: I wonder what you think of that.

FRANK BUNGER: Yes for sure I think there's a lot of truth to what he said that it's embryonic. It is the early days of this. But when you look at folks like the Russian space agency that have established a long and successful track record of launching to orbit on the Soyuz craft, having been doing this now for decades. There are clearly ways to do it safely. So is there a risk? Yes there's a risk in everything we do; risk importing airplane. You know as it turns out the Southwest incident the other day. So yes there are risks but I think they are manageable. And so this is ultimately a trip for a little bit more adventurous person.

LL: What about safety inside the hotel itself. How durable is it?

FRANK BUNGER: So we're manufacturing our station the micrometeorites shelling and the hall are made out of traditional accepted methods of aerospace manufacturing. On the inside we're going to be doing some interesting stuff to save some weight and to produce manufacturing costs in the 3D printing realm, but everything outside is been tested, tried and tested for decades.

LL: We know others have tried to build these space hotels but they've yet to produce one. What makes this a real thing?

FRANK BUNGER: So I think the what's happened up to this point with other space hotels is that nobody had really gone to market on it because everybody was afraid that it wouldn't work and that they would look foolish. So us being a start-up we have more flexibility there to take that risk. And so we went to market and as we expected there is a tremendous amount of interest and demand already there. And I'm also quite optimistic that in the future when prices start to come down that that demand is only going to grow.

LL: Prices come down from 9 1/2 million dollars. What you see is the lowest prices going to hit?

FRANK BUNGER: Yes I appreciate it. It's definitely something exclusive today. That's definitely true. The biggest bottleneck is the price of getting to orbit and returning to Earth. That is the biggest bottleneck. But there's a new launch providers coming online almost weekly these days and everybody says they can get to orbit cheaper, better, faster. So I think we're on the cusp here of innovation and improvements that will allow people to get to orbit much much more cheaply. So I think that's when we're going to see the real blooming of activity in space and we’re very close to it today.

LL: And what's the response been like since you announced this?

FRANK BUNGER: Oh it's been tremendous. We've looked up to five months of flights at this point.

LL: Are they're putting their money where their mouth is? Are they actually buying rooms in a hotel?

FRANK BUNGER: Yes yes we've got five months’ worth of deposits already.

LL: And how much is a deposit?

FRANK BUNGER: The deposit is eighty thousand dollars.

LL: Refundable?

FRANK BUNGER: It is. Well it's also in escrow. So we want our customers to feel safe about their money.

LL: Okay Frank I'm wondering after all would you go up to the hotel?

FRANK BUNGER: Absolutely. I'll be one of the first flights. For me personally there's no higher calling than trying to take steps forward to getting people into space whether that's visiting space, living in space. I view that the long term destiny for our civilisation is to be a space touring civilization. The road between how we get there today and the actual destination is nebulous. But I'm confident that with the trends we're seeing today that we are on the cusp of an exciting bloom of activity in space.

LL: When you first started thinking about this or talking about this did you have anybody tell you that you were crazy?

FRANK BUNGER: Nobody told me I was crazy but they certainly gave me that look.

[Laughter]

LL: 'Frank what's he up to this time?' That kind of look?

FRANK BUNGER: Yes exactly.

LL: And are they still looking that way at you?

FRANK BUNGER: No, not at all. They've come around a lot. I actually just met with a good colleague of mine yesterday who gave me that look when I first told him. He was one of the first people I spoke to and now he's extremely excited. So I think people are starting to come around to it.

LL: Thanks very much for talking to us.

FRANK BUNGER: Thank you.

LL: Frank Bunger is the chief executive of Orion span. He was in San Mateo California. Now The Currents intern Bethlehem Mariam took a trip yesterday to the Ontario Space Center to hear what kids think of space hotels. This is six year old Isaan and 7 year old Calvin chatting while they explore the rocket chair exhibit.

SOUNDCLIP

CALVIN: The best thing about having a space hotel, you can bring a bunch of things and you can fly everywhere.

ISAAN: You're going to be floating in the space hotel. Oh you're just going to be standing there on [unintelligible]. Kind of exciting, but the bad news is you have to wear a space helmet.

LL: Okay they sound pretty excited. While Orion's fan hopes to open the first space hotel, my next guest has already built space habitats. Maxim De Jong is the CEO of Thin Red Line Aerospace, a Canadian company that specialises in building inflatable structures for space. He's worked on space hotel design and is currently working on designs for NASA. We've reached him in Chilliwack B.C. Hello.

MAXIM DE JONG: Good morning.

LL: What was your approach to designing a space hotel?

MAXIM DE JONG: The general approach that we've embarked on over, it's been about 18 years now, is the constraint of the launch vehicle. We have a rocket that only has so much room on board and yet if you want to live in space for an extended period of time - whether it's for NASA or going to Mars or for lower earth orbit - you need to have a considerable amount of room just for the psychology of of existence in a confined space. So what we've done is we've worked on inflatable structures that could be deployed once the rocket gets to orbit, and so you end up with a larger habitable volume than you would otherwise with a conventional metallic or composite structure like what we call a conventional tuna can, like what the ISS, the space station is built from in a modular sense.

LL: Is that the kind of structure that you design for something called Bigelow Aerospace? Was at a tuna can?

MAXIM DE JONG: No. So those were the Genesis 1 and 2 spacecraft that were launched. We designed, engineered and built the pressure holes up here in Canada. They were both inflatable habitat demonstrator articles. So full fidelity strength and debris shielding. Actually I believe they're still on orbit after about a dozen years.

LL: Are they square structures? Give me some visual sense of what they look like.

MAXIM DE JONG: No they look like you know a glorified Tylenol capsule, really blunt, sort of cylindrical with sort of hemispheric and caps and. And you know they're just pumped up really hard with life support atmosphere.

LL: Now they're inflatable are they are they puncture proof?

MAXIM DE JONG: [Laughs] The classic question. The flexible structure, when it boils down to it, when it comes to the low earth orbit scenario what we're talking about like for space hotels, the inflatable structures are much more resilient in general because of the flexibility of the whole structure itself. And also the fact that the polymers that are used in the fibers they're much more- It's sort of like a bulletproof vest. So the possibility of attenuating impacts from micro meteoroids and orbital debris is vastly enhanced over conventional aluminum or titanium stroke.

LL: So is that the same material that you use in a bulletproof vest like Kevlar?

MAXIM DE JONG: In part yes. In a basic sense there are variants on that. Currently the airlock that we're building a full scale prototype for NASA right as we speak. Part of that whole structure is Kevlar and the rest of it is generally manufactured from a polymer called veteran liquid crystal polymer. But essentially they're just high tech modern fibers.

LL: These were sent into space but they never took off as hotels for tourists right?

MAXIM DE JONG: No they were demonstrators because you know Bob Bigelow he invested about half his personal fortune, about half a billion, in working on developing space hotels. And he still is doing that. And what he needed to do, being a very savvy business person, he realised that while we need to demonstrate the feasibility first. So it's been baby steps incrementally along the way. So these are the ones that launch Genesis 1 and 2, they are sort of minivan size. But they have all the attributes of a habitable structure.

LL: So what do you think when you hear Frank Bunger say he is building space hotel and is going to be open for business in 2022?

MAXIM DE JONG: It's always dangerous to invite the opinion of a research engineer like myself versus, you know juxtaposing that with business acumen or a business case. You know I'm here to solve problems of getting the job done. But of course I see infinitely more complexity than people who are developing the business. As for space flight like that becoming routine to a certain extent, yes. But there's a lot of very challenging variables. Like I said Bigelow has been working on it for 18 years and he had a lot of like instant upfront cash investment in place. Like I said half a billion just to get this done. And the bottom line is we still don't have a space hotel. And it's a very aggressive developer.

LL: Is 2022 than impossible in your mind?

MAXIM DE JONG: Look impossible isn't a word that - whether you're a businessperson or an engineer like me - we don't like to hear the word impossible, because if you look at you know Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Richard Branson none of these people used the word possible. So ungame from that point of view.

LL: Are you are you as optimistic as Frank Bunger about the idea of space tourism becoming a real thing in the next few years, even if it's not space hotels but people getting up into space as tourists?

MAXIM DE JONG: I believe there's a lot of interest. I mean I'm an insider in this world for a long time and we certainly have felt that a large degree of interest. Otherwise you wouldn't have the people like Elon Musk and like I said Richard Branson pursuing that track. As for the ultimate business case viability that's totally out of my realm of expertise.

LL: Okay well let us know if your version of the hotel ever gets up and running okay?

MAXIM DE JONG: You bet.

LL: Thank you. Maxim De Jong is the CEO of Thin Red Line Aerospace, a Canadian company that specialises in building inflatable structures for space. He's currently working on designing a new airlock for NASA. And we reached him in Chilliwack B.C. Well the idea of space tourism has captured the popular imagination for generations.

[Music]

LL: In fact 2001 A Space Odyssey turns 50 this month. In Stanley Kubrick's vision of the future space travel doesn't go so well. A common occurrence in fictional space adventures but my next guest says not to worry. Despite the hopes of companies such as Span Orion, viable space tourism is still a long way off. John Longsdon is a professor emeritus at the Elliott School of International Affairs at George Washington University. He's also the founder of the Space Policy Institute and we reached him in Washington D.C. Hello.

JOHN LONGSDON: Good morning.

LL: What do you make of plans for an orbiting luxury space hotel with clients in the next few years?

JOHN LONGSDON: Fantasies are fun. We have had humans living in space on a continuous basis since the year 2000 on the international space station. So people can live and work and look back at earth and in orbit. But to date it's ridiculously expensive. Costs to operate the space station about four billion dollars a year. The price of a ticket for a U.S. astronaut on a Russian spacecraft is 81 million dollars. So the notion that you can finance this thing and you have it in orbit in 2022 and charge 9.5 Million dollars - I wonder where they get the point five - for the whole experience seems to me to have no connection with reality.

LL: Okay. That's the cost part of it. What about technical challenges to achieving it?

JOHN LONGSDON: Well there's no launch vehicle to build this thing. I mean you can build a habitat as your last guest said. Bigelow has been talking about inflatable habitats and doing tests. He didn't mention or know people on these two demonstration habitats that are in orbit. So I mean you could certainly build something whether it would be a luxury outpost, I think it's again a little stretching plausibility.

LL: Now this phrase 'space tourism' it encompasses different things. What do you see as the different kinds of space tourism?

JOHN LONGSDON: Well there is sub orbital space tourism. That is going up above 100 kilometers which is generally recognised boundary between airspace and outer space. Getting five or six or eight minutes of the experience of zero gravity, having a view of large segments of the earth and then coming right back down. So that's something that Virgin Galactic, Richard Branson's company, and Blue Origin, Jeff Bezos company, are close to doing. I would say in the next year or two they're going to start taking people on suborbital flights. That technically is a much less challenging undertaking than taking people, accelerating people to the orbital speed that is required to get up and stay up. We're still in the very early stages of doing that with trained astronaut much less fare paying tourists.

LL: That suborbital space flight, how long would the trip actually take?

JOHN LONGSDON: Well you have to get up to an altitude with a carrier or with Bezos you do just launch from the ground. So it could be anywhere from a few hours to 45 minutes.

LL: Right. Okay Another thing I was talking about was this lack of regulation for this kind of space tourism. What kind of regulation do you think would make it safe?

JOHN LONGSDON: Well it is as Mr. Young said it's always going to have a degree of risk. The idea of comparing spaceflight to commercial airline flight is again to me kind of a red herring. The the technical requirements of overcoming gravity and getting to the speed of twenty five times the speed of sound are really very challenging. So people take the risk on themselves. So as long as people are willing to take the risk and are basically healthy they're now allowed to go. The issue is managing that flight so that it doesn't hit anything else. Whereas is Mr. Brunner's said in the United States that the Federal Aviation Administration that does kind of space traffic control instead of air traffic control. So there is that kind of regulation but the willingness to assume risks for yourself is so far unregulated.

LL: What do you think it is about space tourism that has captured the popular imagination for such a long time?

JOHN LONGSDON: I think it is the image of floating free. I mean I think we've all had dreams of being free of gravity and then looking back at the earth and everything. I mean there are only 550 plus a few but less than 560 people have ever been in orbit. And they report back at some remarkable experience. So I think people want to share that experience. And then you have films like 2001 which after all was 50 years ago and all the Star Wars movies, E.T. So there is in fiction a depiction of the experience that I think fascinates people.

LL: What about you? Would you ever want to go on vacation in space?

JOHN LONGSDON: No. I don't know. Will the luxury hotel have a good wine cellar?

[Laughter]

LL: That's a priority for you.

JOHN LONGSDON: Yes . Good food, good wine.

LL: Well that's more down to earth holiday. Mr. Longsdon. Thank you.

JOHN LONGSDON: Good to talk to you.

LL: John Longsdon is a professor emeritus at the Elliott School of International Affairs at George Washington University. He's also the founder of the Space Policy Institute. He was in Washington D.C. That is our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio 1 for Q. Tom Power talks to Sting and Shaggy about their new rather unlikely collaborative album 44/876. Since we've been on the topic of space travel this morning we're going to give our last word to those world class oddities Monty Python. This is Eric Idle with a fun little ditty called Galaxy Song. I'm Laura Lynch. Anna Maria Tremonti is back on Monday and thank you for listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song: The Galaxy Song].

Whenever life gets you down Mrs. Brown.

And things seem hard or tough.

And people are stupid, obnoxious or daft.

And you feel that you've had quite enough.

Just remember that just standing on a planet that's evolving

And revolving at 900 miles an hour.

That's orbiting at 90 miles a second.

So it's reckoned a sun that is the source of all our power.

The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see

Are moving a million miles a day.

In an outer spiral arm at 40,000 miles an hour

The galaxy we call the Milky Way

The Galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.

It's a hundred thousand light years, side to side.

It bulges in the middle 16,000 light years thick.

But out by us it's just 3000 light years wide

With 30,000 light years from galactic central point.

We go around every 200 million years.

And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions.

In this amazing and expanding universe.

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