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The AIH Transcript for April 17, 2018

Hosts: Susan Bonner and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

SUSAN BONNER: Hello, I'm Susan Bonner, sitting in for Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight…

SB: Out of thin air. One passenger is dead after one of the engines of a Southwest Airlines flight exploded at 30,000 feet. And a passenger tells us about the terrifying moments before the emergency landing.

JD: A fine line. The Supreme Court is considering the question of whether it is constitutional to make convicts pay a fee called a ‘victim surcharge.’ But our guest is a retired judge who firmly believes the financial penalty is wrong.

SB: The bigger picture. Last summer a photographer took a horrifying split-second shot as a car plowed into a crowd in Charlottesville. And now Ryan Kelly has won a Pulitzer Prize for it.

JD: Trial by files. The Nova Scotia government says a teenager stole data. But he says it was all publicly available and a privacy lawyer says the province is scapegoating the young man for its lousy security.

SB: Runner up-and-coming. It was a singular achievement for the woman who won yesterday's Boston Marathon — but it's the second place finisher who has people doing a double take.

JD: And…Old yellers. For a century one British family has called customers to a fruit stand the traditional way — by hollering. Now the local government is trying to hush Wayne Bellows, whose name is Bellows and who bellows. As It Happens: The Tuesday Edition. Radio that has news for those local officials: you can't fight city holler-ers.

Part 1: Southwest Emergency Landing: Passenger, Winning Photograph, Bellows Bellower Hushed

Southwest Emergency Landing: Passenger

Guest: Marty Martinez

JD: A Southwest Airlines flight from New York to Dallas turned into a terrifying ordeal for passengers today. One of the 737’s engines exploded mid-flight and sent shrapnel into a window and killed a person. Here is a recording of the pilot of a Flight 1380 speaking to an air traffic controller.

SOUNDCLIP

AIR TRAFFIC CONTOLLER: Southwest 1380, I understand your emergency. Let me know when you want to go in.

PILOT: We have part of the aircraft missing we need to sllow down a bit.

AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER: Southwest 1380, speed is your discretion maintain any altitude above 3,000 feet.

PILOT: Southwest 1380 would like to turn, start turning it back.

AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER: Southwest 1380 start turning southbound there, there’s a Southwest 737 turning southbound. Start looking for the airport, it’s off to your right and slightly behind you there. Altitude is your discretion, just watch out for the downtown area.

PILOT: Can we have medical meet us there on the runway as well. We’ve got injured passengers.

AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER: Injured passengers? OK. And are you — is your airplane physically on fire?

PILOT: No, it’s not on fire but part of it is missing. They said there’s a hole and someone went out.

JD: That was an air traffic control recording of the pilot of Southwest Airlines flight 1380 preparing for an emergency landing today. Marty Martinez was a passenger on that flight. We reached Mr. Martinez in Philadelphia.

SB: Mr. Martinez, when did you realize something was very wrong on this Southwest flight to Dallas?

MARTY MARTINEZ: It was about 30 minutes, 30 minutes into the flight. Typical flight, I take about 40 flights a year. Exactly like 30 minutes we all heard a loud boom and about five seconds after that all of the oxygen masks deployed. And immediately everyone starts freaking out. And I knew that we were in trouble, I didn't know what exactly was going on. And then I would say about three to five seconds later we heard another explosion and one of the windows two aisles over from me just like exploded.

SB: You could see this? You could see the window explode?

MM: Yeah, I was two rows behind. We heard this loud boom and then immediately all the pressure within the cabin was lost. You know there was a lot of wind coming in. And at this point everyone was freaking out. And I'll never forget the look on the flight attendants face knowing that this was not normal. You know, she was visibly shaken and then the woman who was who was sitting in that seat, she just immediately passed out and because the pressure was really kind of sucking people out, like it was, you know, it's a wind that sucks you out. That woman was unconscious and she was like almost flailing out of the window. And I can see this from just two rows at a catacorner to her.

SB: What happened around her? What were people trying to do?

MM: Well, everyone was screaming, you know. And the other passengers were trying to hold her in. All while, you know, there's wind just circulating within the cabin like crazy. And a gentleman from like the seventh row ran all the way up to the 14th row where that happened and was trying to secure her from flying out.

SB: What were you doing at the time while all this was happening around you?

MM: I thought to myself this plane is going down. I don't know what else, you know, I don't know what else to do. All I can think about was I need to get some sort of communication with the outside world. I knew that I could buy Wi-Fi. So literally as the plane is going down I'm thinking to myself, I need to be able to contact the people that I love. I had this gut wrenching feeling of thinking like who do I tell I love first? Do I tell my mom, my dad, my brother, my sister, my girlfriend? And I thought to myself, you know what I'm going to go I'm going to go live on Facebook. So I actually, like, I live streamed the whole thing because I knew that I could talk to people en masse and tell people that I loved them and just kind of catalogue, you know, the experience. But really it wasn't for me to tell strangers. I wasn't caring about hey I want people who I don't know to know what my final moments were. But this is really in an effort to, you know, to get in contact with the people, I love because I know that they'll be able to see my feed.

SB: Were you really convinced at this moment that this was the end?

MM: Oh, I totally thought that this was like — I had no — there was no reason for me to be hopeful. The entire plane was shaking. A window had exploded. One of the engines had went out. I'm sitting in a window seat and I looked to my right and I don't see the sky — I see the ground. And that meant that the plane was tilted. And we were going down so fast I had no idea, you know, if we were going to make it at all.

SB: What was the crew telling you?

MM: There was nothing said really on the intercom. The only that was said on the intercom was at the very end. And it was “brace yourself for impact, brace yourself, brace yourself, brace yourself.” And then I look over outside the window and I see, what I now know to be Philadelphia, and I'm like I don't see a runway. Like are we going to land, you know, are we hitting Philadelphia the city downtown, or are we going to land in a suburb or in a field somewhere or on a freeway? I had no idea what to think or what to do.

SB: We know now that that someone died in this incident. What do you know about that? Do you believe it was the woman sitting beside the blown out…

MM: It absolutely was that woman. Oh yeah, it was, absolutely. She was the first one they took out. And, you know, she was unconscious when that happened. And as they rolled her out on the stretcher, you know, of course we're all hopeful that, you know, she would be — she was the only one that was that was visibly hurt from my angle. And, you know, all of the attendants and then the passengers were trying to attend her, all while the window like wide open. And she was unconscious and it was really scary to see her almost being sucked out of the window. Luckily she had her seatbelt on, but she seemed to be completely unconscious. And even as we were leaving the, even as we were getting off of the plane there were no signs of life from her at all. And I did find out that she unfortunately didn’t make it. And I can only imagine what that family is going through right now.

SB: You've been through such a trauma, how are you feeling now that you've been on the ground for a while?

MM: I still feel like, you know, I’ve been in a state of shock. You know, I think it's always everyone’s biggest fear. Even as someone who is a frequent flyer like myself, the smallest turbulence, you think in the back of your head, ‘Oh my god is this — is something bad going to happen?’ And I think we all have those fears that we have. And I just feel so lucky that the pilot was able to get us on the ground safely and clearly feel like I have a second chance at life. You know, like when all that was happening I was convinced that this is it, this is the last few moments that I have on this earth. I have a sense of relief that I’m able to kind of walk away. But my heart goes out to that woman and her family who was taken from us. Poor lady, any of us could have sat in that seat, and it's just unfortunate that happened.

SB: Well, we're glad that you're safe on the ground. And thank you for talking to us. Take care of yourself.

MM: Yeah, thank you so much. Bye-bye.

JD: Marty Martinez was a passenger on today's Southwest Airlines flight, during which one of the plane's engines exploded. We reached Mr. Martinez in Philadelphia.

[Music: Ambient Electric Guitar]

Humboldt Edmonton Memorial

JD: Jaxon Joseph, Logan Hunter, Parker Tobin, Stephen Wack. They were all Humboldt Broncos. They all died in the bus crash 11 days ago. And they all called the Edmonton area home. Earlier today in Edmonton, people gathered for a memorial to the four hockey players. Jaxon Joseph’s godfather Bryan Radmanovich — or ‘Uncle Bry’ — led the tributes.

SOUNDCLIP

BRYAN RADMANOVICH: This tragic and devastating accident has touched many lives. The hockey world, the members of the hockey community, has been shaken to its core. But it goes beyond the 200 x 85 foot sheet of ice. This is bigger than hockey. This is about a special bond between people who all shared the same passion, and who all played for the love of the game. Jaxon's favourite place was the dressing room. The dressing room is where lifelong friendships form. Strangers become friends and friends become brothers and sisters in the hockey world. I like to live my life through the words of a quote that reads. There are no strangers in life, only friends you haven't met yet. And this applies so well to the hockey world. Strangers from different neighbourhoods and towns, cities and countries, come together to be part of something special, to be part of a team. The Humboldt Broncos had players from all across our neighbouring provinces, coming together as strangers to form a special bond all playing for the name on the front of the jersey, yet representing their families by the name on the back. Number 13 proudly represented the Joseph family. Jaxon and the precious lives and souls that were lost had a significant impact on the lives of many and will continue to as their legacy will live on forever. Jaxon will forever be in our hearts.

Bryan Radmanovich is the godfather of Humboldt Broncos player Jaxon Jospeh. He was speaking at a memorial in Edmonton today.

[Music: Ambient Tones]

Winning Photograph

Guest: Ryan Kelly

JD: In a split second he captured an image that went around the world. Last summer, photographer Ryan Kelly was covering the protests in Charlottesville. And while he was taking photographs he happened to turn his camera to a crowd of protesters just as a car plowed into them. Bodies went flying, and 32-year-old Heather Heyer died. Yesterday, Ryan Kelly found out that that photograph had won a Pulitzer Prize. He had just returned from Amsterdam where he'd gone to accept a world press photo award for the same photograph. But despite these two awards he no longer works as a photojournalist with the local paper in Charlottesville. He now does social media for a local brewery. We reached Ryan Kelly in Richmond.

SB: Mr. Kelly, congratulations.

RYAN KELLY: Thank you so much.

SB: For people who haven't seen your photograph, can you describe it for us?

RK: So it's the moment that the car attacked a crowd of counter protesters during the Unite The Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia last summer. And the first thing that you notice that jumps out at you is a couple of people who are just completely up in the air, upside down, legs flying — and it's a very violent image. But if you look around the edges and it sort of sucks some people in. You notice sunglasses flying and cellphones out of people's hands and there are all these shoes that litter the ground and the air that got popped off people's seat. There's water spraying, there's signs in the background promoting love and unity. And it's just — it's a really strange, sad, difficult, tragic photograph.

SB: It's very powerful. Can you take us back to that moment, the few moments before you took the photograph? What were you doing?

RK: Yes. So I had been covering this rally the whole day and earlier in the morning was really when it felt the most chaotic, people were fighting, groups between each other back and forth. But it was actually dispersed by police earlier in the morning, it was declared an unlawful assembly and people were sort of separated. This attack later in the afternoon was on a group of hundreds of people who were marching together just sort of chanting and singing. It looked like any other march you can imagine and I felt at peace and calmer than I had earlier in the morning until right after I crossed the street. I heard the car speed past me out of nowhere. As I saw it drive down the street I just picked up my camera out of instinct and just mashed the shutter button and hoped I got some pictures out of it, and just watched this car run directly into the crowd of protesters at speed and then immediately reverse back up the hill. And it was — it all happened and it was over in a moment. I could hardly believe what I saw.

SB: Pulitzer has described the winning photograph, yours, as a quote “chilling image that reflected the photographer's reflexes and concentration.” Amid all of that chaos that you describe how difficult and challenging was it for you to document what was happening?

RK: The difficulty didn't really strike me until later, to be honest. I had been at this newspaper as a staff photojournalist for four years. So I was out in the community every day making pictures of people and places and events — nothing nearly this dramatic or intense. But I was used to being a photographer and taking pictures and documenting what I saw. So it was just muscle memory and reflex reacting to what I saw in front of me. And I just knew it was something that I needed to photograph.

SB: What do you think it is about this photograph that has resonated with so many people?

RK: Well the photo by itself is jarring. It's a violent picture. It's difficult to look at. I really disconnected from all the news myself after that day. But beyond that, it's tied to a larger news event that, you know, people are talking about the trend in far-right politics, in white nationalism, in public rallies all over the country for various different causes. There's all sorts of news trends and events that are pegged to this one photo. And I think it encapsulates a lot about Virginia politics, American politics and just sort of trends that we're seeing, not just in politics, but in society really around the world today.

SB: Spoken as a true photojournalist. I understand that your last day working as a photojournalist for the local newspaper, the Daily Progress, was the day that you took the picture. You're now working doing social media for a local brewery. Why did you decide to leave journalism?

RK: It's a familiar story to anybody who knows a journalist in their life. I was very passionate about journalism and working for a local newspaper. But I just burnt out after four years. It's long hours. It's strange schedules. It's bad pay, it's high stress and it's meaningful and I was happy to be doing it, but after a while I was just burnt out. My heart wasn't made it anymore.

SB: Do the two awards that you received, do they make you reconsider at all?

RK: Well, I'm still working as a freelancer. I never stopped taking pictures once I left the paper in August. I'm still out there, I’m still making pictures and I'm still sort of scratching that itch. So I've got kind of a one foot in both worlds at this moment. So it's working out well for me right now.

SB: What do you think your photographs says about the importance of local journalism?

RK: It's incredibly important. The Daily Progress, the local newspaper in Charlottesville, wasn't just at that rally that day or at the events all weekend, the same way that national and international outlets were. They were at all the city council meetings, all the community events, all the other rallies and demonstrations and changes to the parks, and business meetings downtown — and all of these things the daily progress of reporters and photographers present. And it was all of those things over the course of months, and really years, before August 12^th last summer, that led up to what happened. So local readers, I hope who were interested, were informed and that was because of local journalists doing local work.

SB: Can I ask you to just tell me what it was like for you to return to the spot where you took the photograph?

RK: The rally was Saturday. The next day, on Sunday, I went back and there had been kind of an impromptu memorial that sprung up overnight. There were people paying their respects and it was an emotional moment. I had lived in Charlottesville for years at that point, and this was right in the middle of downtown. It was a focal point of the city. And I'd walked by that street hundreds of times before. But it took on a whole new meaning after that. And when I returned to Charlottesville, I only live about an hour away now, I tend to stop by there and see the street. And there is still frequently chalk art and flowers and memorials that persists to this day there. And it's emotional. I think Charlottesville really came together in response to Heather's tragic death and they absolutely are not forgetting it.

SB: And your photo has helped with that. Ryan Kelly, congratulations again. Thank you.

RK: Thanks for having me.

JD: That was Pulitzer Prize-winning, and World Press Photo-winning photographer Ryan Kelly, speaking to us from Richmond, Virginia. If you'd like to see that photograph visit our website: www.cbc.ca/aih

[Music: Ambient Bass Tones]

Bellows Bellower Hushed

Guest: Wayne Bellows

JD: For a hundred years one British family has been a perfect example of a nominative determinism. Their name is Bellows — they bellow. Their family business, at a market on England's south coast, is selling fruits and vegetables. And, as is the British tradition, they shout to lure in the customers. Now current Bellows bellower Wayne bellows has been ordered by the local town council to pipe down. He is not taking the gag order quietly. We reached Mr. Bellows in Totton, England.

SB: Mr. Bellows, just how loudly do you shout at the market?

WAYNE BELLOWS: Very, very loud.

SB: What kinds of things are you shouting at your customers?

WB: Selling all my wares, all fruits and veg — tomatoes, strawberries, cauliflower, bananas — you name it in fruit and veg we sell it.

SB: All right. I would like to hear your shout if you don't mind, give me one of your best pitches.

WB: One of my best pitches? Ok then. Olly, olly, olly, come and buy some cauli.

SB: All right that’s cauliflower.

WB: That’s cauliflower.

SB: What else have you got? How about Brussels sprouts?

WB: Not it’s the wrong time of the season for Brussels. It’s strawberry season now in England.

SB: All right, give me strawberries.

WB: Any two pints a pound. Strawberries — lovely, two for a pound. Come on pick them up, shake them up. See what we've got here.

SB: Why do you feel the need to shout? What advantages does that give you?

WB: It's atmosphere, the atmosphere at markets.

SB: I read in one of the British newspapers that your voice can reach 100 decibels and that's about as loud as a rock concert.

[LAUGHTER]

WB: very loud.

SB: Is it necessary to shout that loudly?

WB: Well, not really. Sometime s I don’t shout loud, sometime I do. I'm deaf in one ear, so it’s one of those things.

SB: The local council has told you that you are no longer permitted to shout in the morning.

WB: No.

SB: And what did you think when they told you that?

WB: I think it wakes people up, don’t you?

SB: Well, so it's a fair request?

WB: It's a fair request, yes. We're going to do it in the afternoon in the summer because it's very busy on a Saturday in the summer in Limington. Limington is one of the affluent places on the south coast in England. They grow the most amazing strawberries in the country. The best growers of strawberries in the country.

SB: So this market, I understand, has been around for hundreds of years — 800 years.

WB: 800 years, yeah.

SB: And your family, you come from a long line of shouters, do you?

WB: Yes, my granddad, I think he started in the 1920s, I think my granddad did. Then my mother and my dad. My brother’s done it.

SB: Who taught you to shout?

WB: I think my granddad really. My granddad when he was alive. It just comes natural.

SB: So if this has been going on for hundreds of years, why do you think people complained now?

WB: I don't know. I think they don’t have anything in their lives to moan about really. I think 99.9 per cent of the people wouldn't bother, you do get the odd one or two. One complaint and council has got to follow it up.

SB: Well, are you going to raise your voice on this issue with the council?

WB: Yes, when we have our meeting. We’re having a meeting on the 28th and everybody else is fully supporting — the whole country.

SB: People support you? They don't mind the shouting?

WB: Yeah, they support me.

SB: So what are you expecting at the council meeting?

WB: I think we're going to have a compromise. I will shout in the afternoon. I'm not giving up shouting, I won’t give up shouting. That’s my livelihood. If I don’t shout, I don’t sell, I don’t earn money.

SB: Really? It makes much of a difference?

WB: That’s the difference — and it could be a lot of money.

SB: I hear somebody in the background saying…

WB: That’s my wife.

SB: She doesn't mind your yelling?

WB: She's always bothering me saying I'm too loud. The kids always tell me to stop it, they think I’m too loud. I’m always shouting.

SB: Ah, so this is not the first time you've heard the complaint?

WB: No, my wife’s the worst complaint of the lot.

[LAUGHTER]

SB: Well, if your wife couldn't stop you, do you think the council can?

WB: No. Now I think we're going to have a compromise. It's not for me my darling. If I actually stop it then all the other councils will do it, you know. It's a big tradition in this country, selling your wares on the market.

SB: Well in keeping with that tradition can you give us one last shout? Maybe, let's say, tomatoes.

WB: Apples and pears running down the stairs. Cherries are a good seller.

SB: Okay give me cherries.

WB: Cherry red, cherry red!

SB: Mr. Bellows, very good to talk to you. Good luck at the council meeting.

WB: Thank you very much. Thank you.

SB: Bye-bye.

WB: Bye.

JD: Wayne bellows sells fruits and vegetables at the historic market in Lymington, England. We reached him at home in Totton. To see some photographs of Mr. Bellows bellowing, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih Lymington Mayor Barry Dunning had this to say to the Guardian about the hollering quote “He has my sympathy but a nuisance can be whatever you want to make it. We had a complaint. We have to follow that up.”

Back To Top »

Part 2: Victim Surcharges, Boston Marathoner

Victim Surcharges

Guest: Colin Westman

JD: A tax on broken souls. That is what Ontario Court Judge Colin Westman called the victim surcharge when it was raised and made mandatory by the Conservative government in 2013. The surcharge is a financial penalty of $100 - $200 depending on the severity of the offense. It is levied on convicted criminals and is intended to go to victims services. Today the constitutionality of the law is being challenged at the Supreme Court by those who argue that it is a form of cruel and unusual punishment against the poor. Colin Westman has retired from the bench since his protests against the surcharges. We reached him in Kitchener, Ontario.

SB: Mr. Westman, what was your main objection to the mandatory victims surcharge when you were a judge?

COLIN WESTMAN: It was just so unjust to all those people that come into the system that just had absolutely nothing. There was no justice to what they were doing.

SB: Do you remember the first case that came before you after this law came into effect in 2013?

CW: I don't recall the actual case. I immediately thought that 90 per cent of the people that I deal with are people without means. So I was ready to speak about it. And these are people who have nothing. I felt that I was in a position that I could speak up on their behalf. So I spoke from the heart and expressed my displeasure with a government that would impose a minimum fine on people that already have nothing. It was spontaneous, and I usually when I speak from the heart,I speak bluntly and it went viral apparently and that was how my name became associated with the surcharge and its impact on the vulnerable, or the broken souls, in our society.

SB: You say that it was spontaneous but as a judge there must have been some part of you that was aware what you were doing when you were speaking out against the government. As you say, this is not something judges do. Judges are there to apply the law. Are they not?

CW: Oh, for sure, you're absolutely right. And the conflict here is that we had a law that I felt was unjust. A more scholarly approach would be to analyze it from a charter perspective to see if there were sections of the charter that could have achieved the same effect. But I reacted by doing what I did understanding that, of course, it would be appealed and the people that are more scholarly could approach and deal with it in a scholarly way and hopefully come to the same result.

SB: Well, let's talk about your approach. How did you and other judges get around this law that you felt to be unjust?

CW: Well, I'll speak for myself, and I know that there were many judges that reacted the same way I did. But from my perspective what I imposed was a dollar fine typically. So I would arrange the — because usually you're dealing with a multiple of offenses. And so I would put, if I was imposing custody, put custody on one and then on the rest I would put a dollar fine. And that was the way I dealt with it. But it's avoiding the law in a way that, in principle, is unacceptable. Because I was driven by the fact that I was trying to do indirectly what they couldn’t do directly.

SB: Now it's before the Supreme Court. And you're pretty clear on the fact that you don't like these mandatory victim surcharges. Do you think they're unconstitutional?

CW: Well, so far there's two courts of appeals that have said no, that they are in fact, constitutional. I hope that they'll be able to look at Section 7, which states that we all have the right to life, liberty and security of the person, unless under fundamental principles it is appropriate to deny those rights. So on the base fundamental principles, I don't think a person that's unable to pay a fine should be going to jail. If their liberty is compromised by a system that didn't allow me as a judge to use discretion, which I could do imposing time, in fact, which I'm required to do when I'm considering imposing a fine.

SB: The surcharges themselves were usually 100 or 200 dollars. Was that really too much for offenders to pay?

CW: Oh my gosh. If you sat in the courts, especially the plea courts, there's people on the street, there's a segment of our society that has nothing. They don't have identification, they don't get hooked into the welfare system in many cases, and even if you're on welfare, the amount that’s paid really doesn't allow a person to pay a rent and eat appropriately. So no, there is a segment of the population which just are able to pay a hundred dollars. You know, when you're middle class it doesn't seem so much. But if you have nine or 10 offenses to which you pleaded guilty to $1,000 worth of fines, its way beyond the ability of many of the people in our criminal system. The people living in hostels, the people living on the street, they don't have anything. And those are the people that I was speaking on behalf of.

SB: And how did the courts try to collect money from people like that?

CW: Well this is the irony of the situation and this is where, in my view, you develop a disrespect for the law, because, in fact, there was no appropriate system for collecting these things. There just wasn't any way to enforce it, other than these poor souls would be picked up on a regular basis and I guess a police officer could look and say you haven’t paid your surcharge so we're going to have you sit in jail for the appropriate period of time to do your penance. If they really were planning on raising money to help victims you'd never base it on the backs of the poor souls that I had to deal with. It would be laughed at. It was foolish. It was silly.

SB: So if the Supreme Court doesn't strike down this law, or in the meantime until it changes, do you think judges should try to do an end run around it as you did?

CW: Well, you know, that's the way some judges I understand are dealing with it, that's the way I dealt with it. But it doesn't enhance the respect for a system when you're using a bit of fiction to get around something the government has imposed. In my view it creates disrespect for the whole system and that's not what we're about.

SB: Well, Mr. Westman, thank you for talking to us about this today. Appreciate it.

CW: You're welcome.

SB: Goodbye.

CW: Have a good day.

SB: Colin Westman is a retired provincial court judge. We reached him in Kitchener, Ontario.

Question Period: Trans Mountain Pipeline

JD: Pretty much everyone on either side of the Trans Mountain Pipeline bebate is digging in their heels. This week, in response to B.C.’s threats of halting construction of the Trans Mountain pipeline, Alberta introduced legislation that would cap the flow of oil, gasoline and natural gas to B.C. Saskatchewan says it plans to take the same tack. And now B.C. says If Alberta tries to punish it, it will sue Alberta. Meanwhile Question Period erupted today and all of the bluster was focused on Trans Mountain. Here is Deputy Leader of the opposition, Lisa Raitt, with a series of questions to Natural Resources Minister Jim Carr.

SOUNDCLIP

LISA RAITT: Mr. Speaker, words without action are just simply and the reality is is this this government has a record of making great announcements, however had an appalling record of actually implementing the things they’re actually announcing. The uncertainty over Trans Mountain is costing us $40 million a day. Why is the Prime Minister short changing Canadians through his failure to deliver?

[APPLAUSE]

JIM CARR: Mr. Speaker, we understand the uncertainty that has been surrounding the project. An uncertainty that is due in large part because of the actions and the actions of the government of British Columbia, which is why the Prime Minister said, very clearly to all Canadians on Sunday, that he has asked the Minister of Finance to engage in financial discussions with Kinder Morgan and with others while the government looks at all legislative options.

LR: Mr. Speaker, the Minister speaks of one province but this isn't a crisis that's caused by one province or another, it's a crisis that is simply caused by the lack of leadership and the inability of the government to actually get the job done. And we've seen this before, and so long as the government fails to step up, we're going to see it again. Mr. Speaker, $80 billion in investment has left the energy sector — 100,000 well-paid Canadian jobs. And these results are simply unacceptable. When will the Prime Minister stop failing Canadian families who are actually relying on these projects?

[APPLAUSE]

JC: Mr. Speaker, in ten years of the Harper government they failed — I know why they would be sensitive, because not one kilometre pipeline was built so that we could access global markets. 99 per cent of the exports of oil and gas go to one country — the United States. I think all members of the House would agree that that's not in Canada's interests. The Prime Minister couldn't be clearer. This project is good for Canada and it will be built.

JD: That's natural resources minister Jim Carr in an exchange with the Deputy Leader of the opposition Lisa Raitt, in Question Period in Ottawa today.

Boston Marathoner

Guest: Sarah Sellers

JD: Who in the world is Sarah Sellers? I'm quoting a question posed in the Washington Post. But after yesterday's Boston Marathon there is a lot of people asking the same thing. So here's a partial answer. Ms. Sellers is a 26-year-old nurse. She lives in Arizona. She ran track in college and yesterday she ran the Boston Marathon. It was her second marathon ever and she came in second. She crossed the finish line minutes after Olympian Desiree Linden, the first American woman to win the prestigious marathon in over three decades. For more on Sarah Sellers we reached Sarah Sellers in Boston.

SB: Ms. Sellers, congratulations.

SARAH SELELRS: Thank you so much.

SB: After yesterday's race you were quoted as saying ‘I'm going to wake up and this will be a dream.’ So you've had some time to process this. What are you thinking now?

SS: I mean, I still feel kind of a lot of shock and I don't know if that'll ever go away, but it’s definitely starting to sink in.

SB: And what do you say to all those people who are saying who is this Sarah Sellers?

SS: I'm right there with them. I did not — I didn't expect this as much as anyone else did. I mean, I worked really hard to do the best that I could and I expected a lot of myself. But place-wise definitely had no anticipation of this.

SB: Where were you ranked as you headed into this marathon?

SS: I was bib 42. I think I was about 42^nd seed into the marathon, so somewhere around the top 50. Got to start with the elites at 9:30, so thankful I got to start with the group of John Hancock elite field of the top 20 women, and I think was about 42^nd seeded.

SB: So from 42^nd to 2^nd? How do you account for what you did there on the marathon route?

SS: You know, the weather conditions were really kind of a wildcard that everybody got dealt and thankfully I think it played to my advantage. It's been a long time since I've run into those type of conditions. But coming from northern Utah where we get a lot of snow, I wasn't completely unfamiliar with those conditions. I think that was a factor. And I think the big factor was that I had no pressure. You know, my family cared, but nobody cared how I did — and my coach obviously. Otherwise yeah, no pressure going in — nothing to lose really.

SB: So it was it was raining, it was windy and it was relentless and that's over the whole two-plus hours.

SS: Yeah, and it was a solid — the headwind and the rain did not let up for the entire race. I kind of thought that there would be patches, but it was literally the entire race that it kind of felt like you're running in a carwash, like just getting kind of blasted with water and wind.

SB: What's your background in running?

SS: I ran in college and I ran a few good times in college but never anything that would place me at Nationals. My best race was probably a 32:51 10k. But yeah, I feel like I never really reached the peak in college. So it's cool to feel like some of the hard work paid off.

SB: What a way to peak. What were you feeling when you crossed that finish line?

SS: Honestly when I crossed I had no idea what place I was. So it wasn't until a few officials told me that it was and second that it really — even then it didn't hit me. When they told me I was second it was just total disbelief. And then when I saw my husband and I told him I was second, seeing how excited he was that kind of made it real. I’m still waiting for someone to tell me that it was a joke and I wasn’t second.

SB: Why did you decide to run the Boston marathon?

SS: My brother signed up for the marathon so I decided to run it based on him coming out.

SB: How'd he do?

SS: He did great. He ran 2:48 off of not a whole lot of training. He really, really did awesome.

SB: It's in the genes in your family, huh?

SS: Yeah, I think so. My parents are both very fit and I think yeah we've benefited from that.

SB: How did you balance your job as a nurse, a pretty demanding career that you have, with your training for a marathon?

SS: I just kind of been used to that. I've always run with a really busy schedule. Even in college when I was trying to compete at the highest level I could, I was in nursing school and doing clinicals, so really really I've never had time dedicated solely to running.

SB: So now what Sarah Sellers? What about your running career now that you've come second in the Boston Marathon?

SS: I think it's really exciting for me. I'm just going to try to use it as positive motivation that shows that I have potential and can really compete. And a lot of times that's what big races are about. It's about competing and not necessarily about time. So I think I've still got a lot to prove. I have no impressive times on my resume. But I think today really gave me hope that if I keep working hard that I can hopefully back it up with some times that will be a big improvement on what I've run in the past.

SB: I understand you've qualified for Olympic trials?

SS: Yeah, I'm excited about that.

SB: And then there's that prize money, $75,000 U.S., what are you going to do with that money?

SS: That is very exciting. I had no idea what the prize money structure was because I didn't think I had any shot at being in the running. I knew what 15^th was. 15^th got that $1,500 and that was kind of — I would've been pretty ecstatic about that. So now, I mean, I'll definitely use some to celebrate and then my husband and I will both just finished graduate school, so try to pay off some of our student loans as quick as we can, get those out of the way.

SB: Well, you're pretty calm in the face of such a big victory. I bet that had something to do with your running success.

SS: Yeah, I think, you know, I've never had a big breakthrough obviously in the past. So I think it's still been just kind of a big level of shock. I think it will take a while to let that sink in.

SB: Well, congratulations again.

SS: Thank you so much.

SB: Goodbye.

SS: Thank you.

JD: That was Boston Marathon women's runner up Sarah Sellers. We reached her in Boston. And if you would like to see some photographs of Ms. Sellers crushing it yesterday visit out website.

[Music: Ambient Guitar Plucks]

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Part 3: Nova Scotia Freedom of Information Hacker, Edmonton Wire Transfers, Everglades Pythons

Nova Scotia Freedom of Information Hacker

Guest: David Fraser

JD: Last Wednesday police officers burst into a Halifax home, woke up a 19-year-old and placed him under arrest. The man, who has not yet been named, is charged with unauthorized use of a computer after he downloaded thousands of records from Nova Scotia’s Freedom of Information portal. The teenager says he is not a hacker nor did he mean to steal data. He says he was just trying to download information from a government website. David Fraser is a privacy lawyer who has been contacted by the young man's family about the case. We reached Mr. Fraser in Halifax.

SB: Mr. Fraser, how did you react when you heard that this 19-year-old had been charged with taking government data?

DAVID FRASER: Well, at the time it was announced that was I was puzzled but I've actually gotten a little bit more concerned about it since then as the facts have emerged. This charge requires that somebody have acted with fraudulent intent and the Crown would have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. And at least from what we understand from the reporting around the story and in an interview with the young man himself, that really seems farfetched.

SB: Well, can you walk us through precisely what this young man did that that got the government’s attention?

DF: Certainly. What's alleged is that the government of Nova Scotia has a freedom of information protection of privacy web portal that individuals can make access to information requests. And after documents have been made public they publish them on this website, 14 days after they go to the original applicant. And I've used this website many times in order to look at government records that have been made available. And you can look it up by department and release date and things like this. What's alleged is that this individual noticed that the documents had a sequential number, so document 1234 or document 1235 and he says he was looking for information related to a teachers strike and discovered that he could download them in batch so that he could search them on his own computer. And I certainly can sympathize with that. You can't search the documents on the government website. And in that process downloaded 7,000 documents and the government discovered that they had made private information public on this website, went back through their logs and discovered that somebody, who they didn't know at the time, had downloaded 7,000 documents. They got a production order because they had an IP address from the website logs and then a search warrant and 15 police officers raided his house.

SB: Now he didn't just download information. I understand that he had to — he's admitted that he had to write a line of code that allowed him to access the entire database. Doesn't that go beyond what a normal visitor to this site could do?

DF: Well, I suppose it depends on your definition of normal. It's a technique that many people use in order to download bulk information off of public websites. And I understand it's now actually taught in journalism school so that journalists are able to download in bulk public records off of websites so they can search them at their leisure. So if they're imagining that this is somehow the smoking gun that means that this person had an illicit purpose, I think they need to think twice, because it's in fact a tool that's relatively commonly used among people who do this sort of thing, which is a relatively large community but it might not be your average person.

SB: So why specifically did he want to download this data? You say that he wanted to be able to search it and that there was no way to do it without the download?

DF: Well that's my understanding. So on the website itself you could choose what government department. So let's say if you wanted to see what releases have been made by the Department of Justice in the previous month, you could do that. And you could search for keywords in the names of the documents but you couldn't search for keywords within the documents. So in order to do that you'd have to download all of the documents, you'd have to make some searchable, which is trivial to do and then you'd be able to search across them. So I can completely see if what you wanted to do was find something very specific it would actually take less time to write a script, download them all and then search them locally rather than use a clunky slow website.

SB: Can you understand why the government might be suspicious of this because it's not something that's normally done?

DF: Well, I can understand the government's panic at the time when they discovered that they had sensitive personal information on a publicly available website — and then their panic when they discovered that somebody had downloaded some of them. But we're talking about 250 documents within a catalogue of 7,000. So it's a minority of documents, so I can understand their unease. I can certainly understand their embarrassment. It seems like the consensus, at least among the information security community, is that this was a really bad practice. They either did not properly secure that website or they were using it for the wrong job. I was actually surprised to discover that there were any private documents on that website because all the documents that I've used the website to look at have all been publicly released.

SB: So what do you make of the premier of Nova Scotia accusing this young man of stealing data that wasn't meant to be public?

DF: Well, I think there's a lot of political rhetoric that's going on around this and I think it's important for the dust to settle and we'll probably get more facts. But certainly the more facts that emerge the less it looks like he in fact stole anything or even the less it looks like he did anything wrong. We have a situation here. And personally I think that the police jumped the gun by charging him. As more information has emerged the likelihood of being able to prove fraudulent intent to a criminal standard seems to be disappearing.

SB: Do you believe the government is looking for a scapegoat?

DF: I hesitate to try to read too much into the minds of the government decision makers. Certainly this has been very embarrassing for them. They discovered the breach when people noticed the website was down, but they did not answer direct questions about what had happened. And I understand that as well, you want to know and investigate and figure out what the issue was. But certainly the fact that public-facing websites contained sensitive personal information is something that goes against the government's obligations to safeguard information under privacy laws.

SB: And what do you know about this young man and how all of this, the raid, how it's affected him and his family?

DF: I think one can just imagine what it would be like to be woken up in the morning by 15 police officers searching your house and flipping over mattresses and seizing your computers and seizing your family members’ computers. Then arresting you, charging you and releasing you on the condition that you can't touch a computer until your next court appearance. That's a pretty significant and pretty traumatic event I would think.

SB: Do you think this case will proceed?

DF: I would expect that the charges are going to be withdrawn. I can't imagine that a prosecutor looking at the file would think that there's a reasonable prospect of conviction. Nor do I think that it's in the public interest to go forward. So I'm optimistic, but I've been disappointed before.

SB: Mr. Fraser, thank you so much.

DF: It's my pleasure, any time.

JD: We reached privacy lawyer David Fraser in Halifax.

[Music: Laidback Jazz]

Edmonton Wire Transfers

Guest: Jibril Ibrahim

JD: Most of us don't have to think twice about sending money to family or friends in another country. We use banks or money wire services. But the Somali community in Edmonton isn't so lucky. There is no functioning central bank in Somalia and big name wire service companies don't operate there — not even in the capital Mogadishu. Today one of just two money transfer businesses used by hundreds of Somalis in Edmonton is closing. The other is set to close next month. And Jabril Ibrahim says that is going to hurt vulnerable people. Mr. Ibrahim is the president of Somali Canadian Cultural Society of Edmonton and that is where we reached him.

SB: Mr. Ibrahim, why is it that you and hundreds of other people of Somali heritage in the city send money back to the country?

JI: The reason is after the collapse of the central government in 1991, where most of the Somalis, a lot of them, you know, left the country. They left behind loved ones, like brothers, sisters, mothers, grandmothers everybody is left behind. So the reason that we send money is to support those people so that because there's no government to provide them any welfare or some kind of help or support. The only support that they, you know, they're expecting is to get something from the people who have left the country.

SB: So how will you send money back now?

JI: That is the difficulty that we are facing at this moment because the banks have been closing in Toronto and everywhere else. And I heard also the U..S has been doing that as well. So it will be it will be very, very difficult for us to send money unless something happens to this closure.

SB: Well, what are the options? Do you have any options?

JI: Well the problem is if people will send money through Western Union because of the federal government and now operates out of Mogadishu, outside Mogadishu, even Mogadishu we have been having a lot of security issues where are car bombs are happening and so on. So it will be very difficult for a Western Union to go and be in a small town, right. You know, they would be very lucky if their employees don't get kidnapped or something happens to them. But the system that we have been using since 1991, you can send money anywhere in Somalia, right, where people can get their money. If someone calls me now at this moment and they say I want to have a lunch I need $100 or $50, I could go to those institutions and say someone is standing by I need that $100 to go to that individual that individual. That individual will call me within five minutes saying that they have received the money.

SB: Now they're closing because the Royal Bank of Canada said it isn't comfortable dealing with these two companies anymore. And RBC won't talk about specifically what the issue is. But what are the concerns that a Canadian bank would have with these companies?

JI: The concerns that the banks would have, and we all have, is money laundering and money falling into the wrong hands like al Shabaab and those of organization and so on. But those two institutions, and the ones of before, are also registered with FINTRAC, which is an institution that the Canadian government has made to make sure that they get audited and make sure that they do the documentation. They don't have any issue with it.

SB: Why do you think the banks are not going along this route, are not asking for further proof that these companies are legit, are not doing more to satisfy themselves that these companies are legit?

JI: The reason is because of the Canadian government, and you are aware of the reports recently the CBC has reported issues with the FINTRAC and also the banks and how there’s the issue of money laundering and so on. They are getting a lot of pressure from the government. And instead of trying to figure out the solutions to it they say ‘What are we getting out of this?’ There's nothing we are gaining that much. So why are we spending this time to add additional requirement? The easy way out is just to drive them off.

SB: What would you like to see happen now?

JI: What I would like to see is the banks to tell us what they need, what additional requirements do they require to feel comfortable and we will make sure that we meet those requirements. But closing is not an option.

SB: Have you been able to contact anyone in the Canadian government or anyone with FINTRAC to plead your case?

JI: We did contact the Canadian representative from Edmonton, the MPs here in Edmonton we have just sent them an email. We have asked them to do something about it, but, you know, we haven't heard anything back from them so far.

SB: What about FINTRAC?

JI: FINTRAC doesn't have any issue with these institutions. There's nothing. FINTRAC is Ok. They came and they audited and whatever they needed they already asked and they were provided. So FINTRAC doesn't have any issue with these institutions. It was just the banks.

SB: What about your family? If you don't win this battle and the service is closed, what will happen to the money that you would've sent?

JI: Well, it will be very difficult for us. We don't know how we’re going to send money now because my wife sends money to her family. You know, we send money to family on her side and family on my side. So it's just a lot of money that goes out to people who are in need. So it will be very difficult for us. You know, I could see that. But hopefully because of Canadian families that are affected, you know, we are Canadians and we should not be put into this kind of situation or scenario where we can no longer send money to our moms and grandmothers and so on and then they will be left with nothing.

SB: Mr. Ibrahim, thank you very much.

JI: Thank you very much. I really appreciate the opportunity.

SB: Goodbye.

JI: Goodbye.

JD: Jibril Ibrahim is the president of Edmonton's Somali Canadian Cultural Society. We reached him in Edmonton

[Music: Ambient Tones]

Donkey Kong Record Revoked

Guest:

SOUNDCLIP

BILLY MITCHELL: The worst thing that could happen would be to give somebody the credibility of a score that doesn't deserve it.

JD: That was Billy Mitchell in the 2007 doc King of Kong: A Fistful of Quarters. Now if you saw that film you know Mr. Mitchell as the cocky record holder of the high score in the original 1981 Donkey Kong arcade game. But now that particular clip from the documentary, in fact a lot of what Mr. Mitchell says in the film, it sounds pretty ironic. Late last week Mr. Mitchell was stripped of all of his video game records, including the distinction of being the first person to ever reach a high score of a million points in Donkey Kong. The organization that records such things is called Twin Galaxies. And on Thursday the administration said that after a thorough investigation it had concluded that Mr. Mitchell could not have achieved his Donkey Kong scores according to the official rules — in other words he cheated. The next day, Guinness World Records followed suit and removed all of Mr. Mitchell’s scores from its archives. And so, like Donkey Kong himself when he's defeated by Mario, Mr. Mitchell has tumbled from his once dominant position. And yet also like Donkey Kong, Mr. Mitchell is still pounding his chest. Yesterday he posted an official statement to YouTube.

SOUNDCLIP

BILLY MITCHELL: There will always be the argument that video games are meant to be played for fun. Believe me, some of it is a lot of fun. Video games are meant to be played at home, relaxing on a couch amongst friends — and they are — and that's fun. But competitive gaming — when you want to attach your name to a world record, when you want your name written into history — you have to pay the price.

JD: Billy Mitchell proclaiming his innocence in an official statement to Old School Gamer Magazine. Now if you saw the documentary The King of Kong you know it is not about Mr. Mitchell alone. It also tells the story of Steve Wiebe, an up-and-comer who wants to challenge Mr. Mitchell's high score. And now that Mr. Mitchell has been dethroned. Steve Wiebe has now been officially recognized as the first person to ever reach a million points in Donkey Kong.

[Music: Industrial Pop]

Everglades Pythons

Guest: Ian Bartoszek

JD: There are invasive species like Asian carp or zebra mussels — and then there are Burmese pythons. They can grow as long as a small car, they can weigh more than 45 kilos — 100 pounds. And you can find lots of them around Naples, Florida, whether you want to or not. The Conservancy of Southwest Florida does want to. Every year during breeding season it sends hunters to seek out and kill the deadly snakes. And this year they found a nightmarish bonanza — the largest nest of Burmese pythons ever discovered in southern Florida and the Western Everglades. Ian Bartoszek was there. We reached him just outside Naples.

SB: Mr. Bartoszek, how did you do this? How did you find this, what I understand to be the largest group of pythons ever found in the Naples area?

IAN BARTOSZEK: We have an interesting methodology in our python program at the moment and we track male Burmese pythons and they lead us to breeding females during the peak of the breeding season.

SB: So how exactly do you track the male?

IB: Well, first we have to capture a snake so we look for them and then we'll locate one during the month of October or November and we'll catch them. We will surgically implant a radio transmitter with our veterinarian partners and then that animal is let loose and we play the ultimate game of hide and seek tracking that animal around the landscape. And then they turn out to be the most effective female Burmese python detectors on the planet — a male Burmese python. And through some hard work in tracking we'll follow them through the woods until they lead us to a breeding female. And in this instance they led us —one of our snakes, we name our animals because we get attached to them after tracking them year after year — and our animal Argo was our VIP or Very Important Python this year. And around Valentine's Day, mid-February, he led us to a 100-pound, 45-kilo female that was hiding in an underground culvert pipe. And we removed her and then we let Argo go and three days later, and about a half a mile away, he led us to this breeding aggregation that had eight pythons, including Argo. So there were seven males total and one 115- pound 52-kilo female in this breeding aggregation. And to date that's the largest breeding aggregation we've seen in Southwest Florida.

SB: So describe what you saw when you came upon this gathering, this group?

IB: So we were following his signal and we’re traveling through the woods and we know that he's calling, the signals is beeping and so he's getting close. And when we walk in on him we didn't really expect to find anything because three days prior he was already with a large female, but we just saw Argo and then we saw another small python and another and another and as they were getting captured we were realizing that it was a male and another male python and an additional male python. And at that time of year, you know, exactly what that means. So we instantly were tuned to where is the female. And after catching seven males, including Argo and letting him go, we 30 minutes later found the female hiding under a thick grass. And that was very rewarding to find what all the pythons, including us, were looking for.

SB: And what stands out about this female?

IB: She was a very attractive lady for all the boys. And we have the same thing in mind we're looking for the female pythons because they're full of eggs and the male pythons they're useful just to find help us locate these females. And they're remarkable animals. They're very beautiful, they all have unique patterns, and I'd be lying if I didn't tell you that we get attached to some of our animals and we know they're here for no fault of their own. They're released or escaped from the pet trade and they have found South Florida to their liking. So we captured all of them and it was a bit of a frenzy and they weighed in at over 300 pounds, over 136 kilos of Python in one spot. So quite the bag snakes.

SB: What is your technique for going after these large animals — the technique to catch them?

IB: We use the snakes to find them and then when that gets us into that area it takes a little reprogramming of your brain to get ready to jump on a large snake. It's the truth, when I first started this project five years ago I remember that bit of hesitation that I had, and rightly so because it's not normal to just jump in the bush on a giant snake that weighs over 100 pounds or 45 kilos.

SB: You're afraid?

IB: Well, just cautious but now I think that fear is gone. It's awareness of this animal, and knowing that they're not really interested in us. And I tend to joke with others that ask me down here if we're afraid to catch pythons, and I usually respond back that I'm afraid to drive on the roads here in South Florida during peak tourist season with all the snowbirds on the road — that scares me more than a pile of eight pythons to wrestle.

SB: I hear you talk about these animals and you name them. You're describing them with some affection. And yet the pythons that you catch are all killed. As a biologist, how difficult is it for you to go out and to go through all of this effort knowing that after you catch these animals will be euthanized?

IB: Well, I have a lot of respect for this species. The Burmese python is quite a striking animal and they're just doing what they do well. But we know what's at stake here. The effect that they're having on our native wildlife. You have to see it to believe it. And we've shared some of those photos and some of those images. But we humanely euthanize all the animals we capture. I do not enjoy doing that. But I do know what's at stake. You can't place these animals in a zoo. You can't send them back to their native land. It's unfortunate there's really no outlet. But we made a choice a few years ago. We knew it was at stake and we decided to take action. And so this is the path we're on. And that's how we tend to locate these animals effectively. And the search is on for the egg laden gravid females. We’re trying to arrest that development of those eggs before they hatch out and see if we can break the breeding cycle here in Southwest Florida.

SB: Well, Mr. Bartoszek, thanks for telling us about this.

IB: Oh, you're very welcome.

SB: Bye-bye

JD: We reached biologist Ian Bartoszek just outside Naples, Florida. He and his colleagues recently discovered the largest group of pythons ever seen at one time in Southwest Florida on the Western Everglades.

[Music: Whimsical Orchestra]

Milk in Bars

JD: Make mine a double, neat. Oh and make it two per cent. On this day back in 1975, Ontario was mulling legislation to make it mandatory for bars to put milk on their menu. If you'd had one too many the bartender could pour you a wholesome pint of milk and sober you up. Well, nowadays there are plenty of milky craft beers and bevies to choose from, and you could likely find an actual milk in most bars today. But in 1975 most taverns were pretty sour on the idea. From our archives, here as former As It Happens host Al Maitland speaking to Don Felora manager of the oldest pub in Toronto, The Wheat Sheaf Tavern.

SOUNDCLIP

AL MAITLAND: I hear you're kind of mad at the milk producers?

DON FELORA: No, I’m not mad, I love milk but I think it's a wrong place to put it in a pub, because it sort of takes a bit of the tradition away from it. I mean, people coming here to drink. I don't go to a shoe store to order a glass of beer. You know, you come in here you want a glass of beer or a drink or what have you.

AM: What is this law and why did they put it on?

DF: I don't know. I just heard about it yesterday when I was shaving around eight o'clock in the morning and they said they were going to bring it into effect. It's still up in the air, so to speak. I think this is more along the lines of the U.S., they do this over there, as of yet they don't do it here but this is what they're trying to go through with, I think.

AM: I suppose the idea is to help them sober up a little bit after you've had maybe too many or something, is that it?

DF: This could be very true. And like I say, I just I think it's a wrong place to ask the waiter to be serving this when he has enough trouble serving his drinks and draft and bottles and what have you. It breaks the tradition up. Like I said, in a cocktail bar I can see it. In a beverage room or a tavern? I just — I don’t know, maybe I’m from the old school, I don't know.

AM: Suppose a fellow like me doesn’t drink and I wanted to go in there and have a drink with a friend?

DF: So now we have we have soft drinks here at the bar too, you see. I could serve you a Coke or tonic water or soda or whatever it may be. The only thing I couldn't give you is glass of milk or a cup of coffee. But then again, you could go to the snack bar.

AM: You wouldn't mind serving me a pop but you wouldn't want to serve me a glass of milk? I don't understand that.

DF: I don't know, I just think it takes — to serve milk in a beverage room or a tavern, I think it takes a lot of the atmosphere away.

AM: It's your image you're worried about?

DF: I don't…

AM: We just can’t have people going to a tavern drinking milk, can you?

DF: Well, like I say, you don't go to a drugstore to buy a pair of shoes.

AM: From April 17^th of 1975, former As It Happens host Al Maitland, speaking to the manager of Toronto's Wheat Sheaf tavern Don Felora. And although it never passed at the time, Ontario did propose legislation to require bars to serve milk.

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April 18, 2018 episode transcript

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