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The Current Transcript for April 10, 2018

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I've been marching on these streets for 40 years and when the media says to me “What's the good of protest?” Well, I'll tell you what's the good. We legalized abortion in this country.

[Sound: Crowd Cheering]

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: You may recognize the voice of Judy Rebick, unflinching, unapologetic, and usually undefeated in her decades at the forefront of major battles for women's rights in Canada. But it may surprise you to learn that at the height of some of her most public roles Judy Rebick's private voice was distorted by other voices — 11 others actually. Multiple personalities created to deal with the trauma of childhood sexual abuse. Her life from those early years to full-on hippie, dropping acid, and hanging with the Grateful Dead to later confronting prime ministers has been dramatic and often controversial and for a long time those Alters — the other personalities — were part of it. In an hour Judy Rebick on mental illness, mental health, and effort to fuse the heroes in her head. Also today…

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I don’t know Logan, I don't know his family, but, that just says, like, he has some really good morals. It breaks my heart that he's gone but to save six lives is just, it's amazing.

AMT: Logan Boulet signed his organ donor card just weeks ago as he turned 21. And now even as he is being mourned by loved ones the Humboldt Broncos defenceman is being celebrated for a choice that has enhanced and saved the lives of six others. In half an hour the research that shows grieving families benefit from the choice to donate organs. But we're starting here.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: My daughter was napchatting with one of the players minutes before the accident and then the Snapchat just quit.

AMT: The feelings and the thoughts that linger. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Veteran firefighter says he's never seen anything like Humboldt Broncos crash

Guests: Geoff Turner, Brian Starkell

AMT: Across the country, an outpouring of support continues for the young hockey players injured in the bus crash in Humboldt, Saskatchewan and the families of the 15 who died. As of Monday, two of the young players had been discharged but 12 were still in hospital, four in critical condition. In spots across Canada hockey sticks stand in the glow of porch lights as a tribute to those who died. A group of hockey moms in Langley, B.C. are encouraging Canadians to wear a sports jersey Thursday in commemoration. And the Go Fund Me campaign to raise money for the players and families had grown to the site's largest Canadian campaign ever, standing at $6.7 million. The site of the crash has also become a memorial, with people driving hundreds of kilometres to share in the grief. But in Humboldt itself, residents are still coming to terms with the silence from the voices they won't hear from again. We start today with The Current's producer Geoff Turner, who is in Melfort, Saskatchewan, about halfway between Humboldt and the site of the crash. Hello Geoff.

GEOFF TURNER: Hello Anna Maria.

AMT: You've been meeting all sorts of people.

GEOFF TURNER: Yeah. I've continued to be fortunate enough to meet some really lovely people during my time in Saskatchewan. I do my best to be respectful and considerate in meeting these people, but in the end, I'm asking complete strangers in their darkest hour to talk into my microphone. And time and time again, they do that with grace and generosity. And almost invariably I find that people have something important to share.

AMT: A lot of people need to talk about this.

GEOFF TURNER: Yeah, there was a story that I didn't share with you yesterday. We just didn't have time and it’s a story that’s really been gnawing at me. On Sunday I was at the Elgar Petersen arena and this was hours before the vigil. I saw a man standing alone looking pensive; he was staring out at centre ice. I introduced myself and we began to talk.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I'm Richard Jenkins from Humboldt, Saskatchewan. I’ve lived here 32 years and always enjoyed the Broncos ever since the time I came. I do a fair amount of photography for them, taking action photographs at the game and team pictures and so forth, so they've been a big part of my life and my family's life for many, many years.

GEOFF TURNER: Like so many people in Humboldt, Anna Maria, Richard might not be a player or a coach on the Broncos, but he still sees himself as part of the Broncos team.

AMT: This must have been a terrible blow.

GEOFF TURNER: Just awful. Richard's eyes were red and it looked like he'd hardly slept. His face was just a picture of loss.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: It's very hard. It’s hard on my kids and on myself, and my wife, and the whole family because we know these families very well and I can't imagine the heartache they're experiencing right now. It's a rough time in this whole community. There's a dark cloud over Humboldt right now. Hopefully they'll pull through and move forward, hopefully.

AMT: You can hear how raw it is for him. He makes the point that they’re all family.

GEOFF TURNER: Yeah, he spoke with so much affection about the team and they meant to his whole family.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: They've always been a lot of fun when I’m standing in the box photographing them on the ice, they're joking around and saying “Oh, you can get a better shot than that.” They’re always great young men and they're chasing the dream and then this tragedy. Actually my daughter was snapchatting with one of the players minutes before the accident and the Snapchat just quit. I assume that was when the accident happened, so they're having a real rough time too.

AMT: That's pretty staggering, Geoff, the image of his daughter waiting for a message that never comes.

GEOFF TURNER: I know, that's when the gravity of it struck me. His 16-year-old being so close with one of the players moments before the crash. Understandably his daughter didn't want to talk to me about this. It’s too much for her right now. And neither she nor her father wanted to name the player but they did confirm he didn't make it.

AMT: I can understand why that conversation stayed with you. Yesterday you went to see the crash site yourself, didn’t you?

GEOFF TURNER: Yeah I did. Since the moment I arrived in Saskatchewan; I've wanted to go there. I felt it would be hard to relate this story properly without having a sense of that place. But for nearly 48 hours after the crash, police had the highway closed, you couldn't get near the site and so I'd sort of given up on going. But something about this story of these undeceived messages really forced my hand. I felt like I had to go. And police did open it late on Sunday, so yesterday I made my way up there.

AMT: What was that like?

GEOFF TURNER: First of all there's the journey. It’s close to two hours’ drive from Humboldt, and maybe it was that it clouded over on Monday, it was brilliant and sunny on Sunday, but it just felt like the expanses got greater the closer I got to the site. Winter really still has a grip up here so the roads are just these long gray slashes in a sea of white. I took highway 35 north, the same route as the Broncos, until I came to highway 335.

AMT: I've seen the images of the aftermath, the aerial shot, where it is just that long strip of road and the road that crosses it. There’s something really haunting about the look of that road. It could be any road, but it’s that road.

GEOFF TURNER: Yeah, and I had that kind of haunted feeling the closer I got to it. From a slight distance, it looks like a barren field – the site of the crash. But then you notice the impromptu memorial, the stuffed animals and flowers in a growing pile. Some people made a cross out of hockey sticks. But as you actually walk into the corner of the field and you look down you start to see something wrong. The force of that collision must have been enormous, because even though the site was cleaned up to a large degree, there are small shards of metal and plastic and foam; little electronic parts, I saw little LEDs, and traces of mechanical fluids. But among those things you see the evidence that something really terrible happened here. There's a torn page from the bus operators manual, I saw playing cards, and a sports sock pressed into the icy mud. It’s really quite something.

AMT: It’s the little things that stay behind.

GEOFF TURNER: Yeah, exactly. It’s certainly going to stay with me.

AMT: A lot of people were there?

GEOFF TURNER: I was actually surprised by how quiet it was. It could be that the TV satellite trucks were scaring people away. But every few minutes someone would show up. I noticed one couple that pulled up in a pickup truck and quietly placed some flowers. One reason I made note of them is that while she was wearing a parka, he was wearing a blazer and a button up shirt; it was really cold but he gamely toughed it out as people asked questions. It seemed like well this must be somebody that I ought to talk to.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: My name is Randy Hoback. I’m the Member of Parliament for the riding of Prince Albert.

VOICE 2: Wow, I don't have to ask why you're here then.

VOICE 1: No, whether I was the member of parliament of not, I wanted to be here. We laid some flowers, and right now I just want to be there for the community. You know there's been people stepping up with emergency measures, different volunteers, all these people have raised the game. I'm just so proud of the communities around here; the community of Nipawin, the community of Tisdale, and how they reacted and the emergency response.

AMT: And so he represents the area, I would the others coming to the site are just regular folks.

GEOFF TURNER: Yeah, exactly. There were people who were there out of curiosity. They’d snap a few pictures and be off, but most of them were there to pay tribute.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I'm Phyllis Snyder from Nipawin and I'm a hawks fan. But I guess all hawk families are very very close together and that's what we are.

VOICE 2: And what brings you here Phyllis?

VOICE 3: We just wanted to repay our respects to the young people who died here on Friday. We didn't know them, but when we were at the game last Friday with triple overtime, they sure put a hell of a good game on for us. And though we scored our last goal, [sigh…] I just can't say anymore. It’s too heartbreaking. It’s just too sad for these people to die so young.

AMT: That hockey connection again it just runs so deep.

GEOFF TURNER: Yeah, so deep. That’s a fan of the team they were bound to play. Nipawin is just up the road. I met someone who came from a lot further away. Caroline Hiebert was there all the way from The Pas, Manitoba, that's more than 200 kilometres from the crash site.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I have three sons, two to Notre Dame in Saskatchewan. And my middle son Lance got called to the Blizzard. Lots of travelling on the bus. They leave after the game at 10 o’clock, 10:30, grab something to eat, get home at the 5 or 7 in the morning, and their vehicles are at the rink. When I heard the Humboldt Broncos vehicles were still at the rink, it was hard. Brought tears to your eyes right away.

GEOFF TURNER: Carolyn's family also billets for the Blizzard, so hockey players are also very much a part of their extended family. She brought a whiteboard sign with a tribute from the Blizzard players, to leave with the memorial.

AMT: There’s that idea that the cars were left behind too, so many things left behind because of course nobody knew.

GEOFF TURNER: Yeah, it’s so striking.

AMT: So people coming from all over the place, Geoff?

GEOFF TURNER: Yeah, including from very close by. And some people who drive some big trucks down that stretch of highway every day.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: My name is Peter Knelsen and I live here in Zenon Park, I'm a log hauler, log hauling, trucker, and I come to this intersection every morning, me and my wife, each with our trucks. And you have to stop completely because of the trees there otherwise you wouldn't see anything. But you have to stop completely.

VOICE 2: Are those lights always flashing?

VOICE 3: They’re flashing all the time, and I didn't think there was a problem here.

GEOFF TURNER: Anna Maria, I don't want to get into speculation about the cause of the crash, but he's pointing to something troubling. And I guess that's where things stand now. As people come to terms with grief and loss, they'll be looking for answers about how and why this tragedy happened in the first place.

AMT: Yes, and I think the questions have already begun. Geoff, thank you.

GEOFF TURNER: You’re welcome Anna Maria.

AMT: Geoff Turner is a producer with The Current. He joined us from Melfort, Saskatchewan today. It was a very different scene Friday when Brian Starkell first arrived at that highway intersection. He is the chief of the Nipawin Fire Department and one of the many first responders who rushed to the crash site to help. Brian Starkell is with us from his home in Nipawin, Saskatchewan. Hello.

BRIAN STARKELL: Yes, good morning.

AMT: What do you remember about getting a call last Friday?

BRIAN STARKELL: Well we were at the fire hall already. We just backed in our trucks from responding to another call and we just got our trucks back in service and we were listening on the fire radios that Tisdale Fire Department was responding to a semi vs bus accident. And the fire chief from Tisdale asked for a mutual aid call from Nipawin. So before our pagers were toned, we were already in response going to the motor vehicle collision.

AMT: How much information did you have as you were making your way there?

BRIAN STARKELL: Actually all we knew is that — listening to the fire chief from Tuesday — it was upwards of 30 people that were involved.

AMT: So you knew it was going to be bad.

BRIAN STARKELL: That's correct, yes. Yeah. At that level of you know people that were involved in that collision out there we knew that everybody would have to come together and work extremely hard on that one.

AMT: So what was the scene when you arrived?

BRIAN STARKELL: Well when we pulled in first of all I was looking for the Tisdale Fire Department, fire chief there, Brian. And I had a look at the scene quickly and seen that the bus was on its side and also the semi was on its side as well and the debris from the semi, the bales of peat moss were scattered all over their site. And the fire chief and myself had a quick meeting on the highway there just to get our plan of action in place, he was concerned and of course everybody else was concerned of it; also bystanders that were there. And we had tremendous support from all the bystanders. There must have been 20 to 30 bystanders there.

AMT: What do you mean by tremendous support? What were they doing?

BRIAN STARKELL: Well if we needed anything done, helping move some items, or they got some blankets for the people, anything, jackets... Anything that we needed and they just ran and got it for us and I don't know where they would get it from besides personal items.

AMT: To keep the victims warm.

BRIAN STARKELL: That's correct. They helped put blankets on them and help anyway we asked they were just there for us.

AMT: Ok so let me just back up here then. Essentially you have this huge crash, people have been thrown out, they're lying on the on the ground, in the snow.

BRIAN STARKELL: Correct. Correct. Yes. Yeah.

AMT: How do you figure out who you have to help in a situation like that?

BRIAN STARKELL: We were of course focused on all of the people that were screaming or hollering or moving of any kind. And we were trying to get these people free. And just get them moved into the EMS hands so they can get proper medical work done on them. And then of course [unintelligible] showed up as well so have more manpower, sorry... firefighting staff that showed up there, not just men, there were ladies on site too. Everybody just worked as one big team and it just went very smooth we thought with all agencies involved.

AMT: What did that sound like?

BRIAN STARKELL: You know it's kind of hard to explain because we were just focused on what we're supposed to be doing. We're trained for it. We just did it without really thinking. It was just the training cut in and we just got to work and we all did our jobs.

AMT: But you just made the point that you had to go to the people making noise. I'm wondering what sticks with you.

BRIAN STARKELL: Tell you the truth we heard it for you know a couple moments and we get the victim out and get him to the right personnel. We just went back you know for the next person. We don't really pay attention to that. Some of the guys said they heard sirens. Some guys said they heard people hollering. Some people said that they didn't hear anything. They were just you know focused on their job.

AMT: Have you ever seen an accident of that intensity?

BRIAN STARKELL: No. Never. And nobody should have to go through that at all. No community, no department, no staff, no medical staff, nobody at all.

AMT: What do you think about from that night?

BRIAN STARKELL: That night we were just focused on doing everything and then of course after the patients were all taken to Nipawin hospitals and then working with the medical staff when they left and then also working very closely with the RCMP on scene.

AMT: No I know but I'm wondering what Brian thinks about at night, not what Brian the boss thinks, I'm wondering what Brian the man thinks?

BRIAN STARKELL: Well we never really had time to think on that to tell you the truth. Brian the man was probably focused still on the things that had to get done on Friday night, Saturday, and on Sunday. Brian the man never really had time to think until you know the situation was over and that didn't happen until Sunday morning.

AMT: And...

BRIAN STARKELL: And Nipawin Fire Department was on the scene there... all weekend to do scene control and just keep everybody out till the investigation was complete and then back to work, back to the office yesterday morning of course and answering telephone calls and e-mails and also we did our debriefing last night with our critical incident stress management team and of course tonight is going to be for spouses. Saturday afternoon the Tisdale Fire department they had their debriefing done and Sunday afternoon it was done in part. So we're all getting some debriefing which is going to definitely help us you know in the long run.

AMT: Ok. Chief Starkell we have to leave it there. Thank you for your time and your work.

BRIAN STARKELL: Ok. Thank you very much. Appreciate that.

AMT: Brian Starkell is a firefighter with the Nipawin fire department who was among the first responders at the scene of the Humboldt Broncos bus crash. We spoke with him from his home in Nipawin, Saskatchewan. Stay with us, the news is next. Then in our next half hour, giving and grieving. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

Back To Top »

Humboldt Broncos player's organ donation prompts call for stronger protocol around consent

Guests: Christine Milligan, Dr. Stephen Beed, Dr. Eric Yoshida

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come, in her decades as an activist, you've heard Judy Rebick get passionate about many different causes, from a woman's choice, to the rights of the deaf. But now, she's opening up her own life like a book and getting passionate about mental health. She'll join me in half an hour to discuss how the effect of what was once called multiple personalities disorder on her life and her activism. But first, Logan's legacy.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Logan's strong heart continues to beat, allowing a surgical team to travel to Saskatoon for organ transplant procedures. There have been matches made for all vital organs, including a patient set to receive his heart and lungs. All counted, six people will receive the gift of life from Logan. The family will stay with Logan until the surgery begins. Logan had made it known, and very clear to his family, that he had signed his organ donor card when he turned 21 just a few weeks ago. Following the organ surgery, his other organs will be donated to science as he requested. These actions alone give voice to the selfless and benevolent nature Logan possessed in life for others.

AMT: That was a Facebook post by Neil Langevin, the godfather to Broncos player Logan Boulet late Saturday evening. In the aftermath of such an unspeakable loss, it can be hard for anyone who's loved a loved one to find meaning and understanding, but knowing that an organ can be donated and even save another person's life can be a way to create a legacy out of loss. Besides helping desperate recipients, there's even research that shows organ donations can help the donor's loved ones deal with their grief. Christine Milligan understands only too well. Last August, she lost her daughter, Cassidey Ouellette, in a single-vehicle crash near Hastings, Ontario. Cassidey was just one day shy of her 20th birthday when she died. And just like Logan Boulet, Cassidey had made the decision that she wanted to be an organ donor. Cassidey's mother, Christine Milligan, joins me from Trenton, Ontario. Hi.

CHRISTINE MILLIGAN: Hi, how are you?

AMT: I'm wondering how difficult it's been for you to hear the news about the Humboldt Broncos bus crash.

CHRISTINE MILLIGAN: It was devastating to hear about and it was definitely a shock.

AMT: And when you heard that one of the young men had donated his organs, what did you think?

CHRISTINE MILLIGAN: I was quite proud of him because it is not an easy choice to make – or it is an easy choice to make but a lot of people don't make it. And to give that gift is just amazing.

AMT: Tell us what happened the night your daughter Cassidey had her accident, how'd you find out?

CHRISTINE MILLIGAN: It was the Friday of the long weekend in August and a police officer came to the door and told me that Cassidey was in a car accident and that we had to go to the hospital. So he took me to the local hospital in Campbellford. And then Cassidey was airlifted to Sunnybrook.

AMT: August wasn't that long ago, was it?

CHRISTINE MILLIGAN: No, it seems like yesterday.

AMT: Must still be hard.

CHRISTINE MILLIGAN: Very hard.

AMT: And so she had signed a card. How did the process work in terms of discussing, deciding about organ donation, and how that would work?

CHRISTINE MILLIGAN: My family talks about things like this quite often. My brother was an MPP and in 2012 organ donation was a private member's bill that he'd brought forward. So it had been a discussion that we as a family have talked about. And when Cassidey got her license at 16 she signed her organ donor card and she made it quite aware to us that she wanted to be an organ donor and you know you never think that you'd ever have to follow through with something like that. But you just never know.

AMT: And so what was the conversation like for you with doctors? Like who did you discuss this with? How were decisions made?

CHRISTINE MILLIGAN: When we first got to the hospital they had told us that Cassidey — there was no brain activity and that they had to wait to declare her legally brain dead for a second doctor. And so her father and I had the conversations about organ donation and when Cassidey passed away at 5:24 it was just you know we supported her throughout her entire life so it was just something that we wanted to support her last decision that she was able to make. In the province of Ontario they ask you do you wish to revoke your family member’s wishes. So one in four people revoke those wishes even though they've signed the organ donor card and we just felt that that would be wrong because Cassidey wouldn't want that. She'd want to help other people.

AMT: So you were you are on board with it. I'm wondering do you know where her organs and tissue went?

CHRISTINE MILLIGAN: So we initially thought that she would be able to donate more organs than what she actually was able to. So Trillium is an amazing organization and they've offered lots of support and they've you know have been in contact with us to tell us that you know her organs; like her kidneys and liver, lungs, eyes, and stuff like that have all been donated. And I received a letter actually recently to say that we can now write to the people who received her organs. So we write to them through Trillium and then they have the opportunity to write to us.

AMT: How does it make you feel to know that some that she helped someone else with that choice and the choice that you supported?

CHRISTINE MILLIGAN: I'm proud of her for choosing to help other people. And I'm overwhelmed that you know that her choice can impact so many people because you're not just impacting the person who receives the organ but their family members as well and what they can accomplish in their life now having a second chance.

AMT: So four different people?

CHRISTINE MILLIGAN: At least four, possibly five because I think her kidneys went to two different people.

AMT: Has that helped you in your grief?

CHRISTINE MILLIGAN: Yes I think so. It's one of the things that have helped me. I wake up every day and try and pull the positive out of every day and that's one of the positive things that she was able to help other people and other families with a selfless decision.

AMT: Yeah I guess even when I ask does it help I mean to lose your daughter has to be overwhelming but to know that she wanted to do that speaks to who she was.

CHRISTINE MILLIGAN: Oh yeah she was definitely you know a loving, caring; always cared about people. So I wasn't surprised when you know she signed her organ donor card. And I always knew that she was an organ donor but you just never think that you'd have to make that decision. And like I said in the province of Ontario and this is one of the things that I'd like to change about the bill is because we could have revoked her wishes and that would have been a real shame.

AMT: Well Christine, thank you for speaking with me today and I'm sorry for what you've gone through.

CHRISTINE MILLIGAN: Thank you very much for sharing this important story. And I'm a real advocate for organ donation and I'm going to work really hard on changing the bill for the province of Ontario.

AMT: Ok. Thank you again.

CHRISTINE MILLIGAN: Thank you. Have a good day.

AMT: You as well. Christine Milligan is the mother of Cassidey Ouellette, who died last August when the car she was driving crashed outside of Hastings, Ontario. She mentioned her brother who was an Ontario MPP who was fighting for this and the changes apparently didn’t go through because of an election. Rob Milligan is the person who is fighting for this in the Ontario legislature. Christine Milligan is in Trenton, Ontario. The news that six people had received organs from Broncos player Logan Boulet, has prompted a lot of talk on social media about the importance of organ donation.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I haven't been able to find the words to describe how I feel about the terrible tragedy this weekend. One thing we can all do is follow in the footsteps of Logan Boulet and sign up to become an organ donor. Register, I did last night.

VOICE 2: Should've done it years ago. Was motivated to do it after reading about #HumboldtBroncos player Logan Boulet, who was killed in the accident & had just signed his organ donor card.

VOICE 3: Seeing this and feeling heartbroken about the #HumboldtBroncos inspired me to sign up for the organ and tissue donation registry, something that was long overdue). You can too.

AMT: Those are readings by our producers from some of the tweets on Twitter about this issue. And those reactions aren't isolated ones. Organ registries in B.C. and Ontario have reported a bump in interest in the days since the bus crash in Saskatchewan. And the Saskatchewan Transplant Program tells the CBC that there has been a significant increase of calls to them to express support for organ and tissue donations. That is good news, in a province which has typically lagged behind on this issue. Of all the provinces, Saskatchewan had the lowest organ donation rate from deceased donors in 2015. Our next guest has been working on how to improve the rates of organ and tissue donation in two provinces. Dr. Stephen Beed is an intensive care physician, medical advisor for the Nova Scotia organ and tissue donation program, and the national chair of the deceased donation advisory committee of Canadian Blood Services. Dr. Beed spends several weeks a year working as a locum doctor in intensive care units in Saskatoon, which is where we've reached him today. Hi Dr. Beed.

DR. STEPHEN BEED: Good morning.

AMT: So you've been working at two of the Saskatchewan hospitals that have been caring for the accident victims and I know you can't speak to the specifics of their cases but I'm wondering what the past few days have been like for you.

DR. STEPHEN BEED: It's a very challenging difficult but in some ways rewarding environment and a pretty amazing team working pretty hard under the unusual circumstances.

AMT: We're talking about the fact that Logan Boulet signed his donor card and again I don't know how specific you can be but do you know if there have been other organ donations related to this crash?

DR. STEPHEN BEED: Well in these circumstances things tend to unfold. Any tragedy like this heightens the awareness around this topic. So I think the real benefit may not be if there are other organs here but it's related to the fact that many people across the country are now thinking about this. And when we see these kinds of events this is an opportunity to just think about is there any positive that can come out of what such a terrible tragedy. And the potential for organ donation and tissue donation is one them.

AMT: And why is it that Saskatchewan has been lagging behind other provinces on this front?

DR. STEPHEN BEED: Well what we know is that investment in a system to support organ and tissue donation does work. You can look at very successful countries around the world. Spain is model everyone points to but other countries like the UK and Australia have seen dramatic improvements. And the Canadian collective community have worked pretty hard in the last decade or so to learn from some of those other countries and bring things on board that has proven to be successful. Certain provinces for example Ontario have been incredibly successful basically doubling their donation rate in the last few years by system change and one of the key components that might not yet be present in Saskatoon but which is present in successful systems is to have a donation specific program led by the appropriate people so that donation becomes part of the medical culture. That's a transformation that takes time and requires investment and support and Saskatchewan is on the early part of that.

AMT: Does that mean you would have like a separate team that would actually talk to loved ones about that as opposed to the doctor who's attending for other reasons?

DR. STEPHEN BEED: It involves several things. The bedside care of the potential donor is within the critical care realm and intensive care physicians and nurses that team are pretty comfortable with that topic if they're in a large centre that handles these kinds of things. And that has to happen in small and large centres. It has not yet become the clinical norm in many centres. But beyond that you have to have a system that supports those types of people. For example you know an administrative structure that understands and budgets the support of these kinds of activities and provides trained coordinators, quality assurance process to look at how donation related activities are happening. Those are system type things that need to be brought on board as well as having a clinical team at the bedside that can and will take care of the actual donor.

AMT: And we just heard from our last guest that families in Ontario can override the wishes of someone who's signed a donor card. In your experience what causes that reluctance?

DR. STEPHEN BEED: Boy that is a tough situation and I've encountered it. And what typically happens is that the family you're dealing with are unbelievably stressed. Potential donors are almost always very acutely ill. They didn't have a chronic illness. They were identified by their family as healthy that morning and then their accident or their stroke or whatever. So these are overwhelmed stressed, distressed, exhausted families and in the context of having these difficult conversations there can be confusion on the part of the family and fear and the medical team may know that the individual wanted to be a donor based on registry or whatever. But confronting a family in such distress is a very difficult thing for people to do especially if they do it very rarely. And so the health care teams may on the side of supporting this distressed family even if that means the donation opportunity comes and goes. Now that's very unfortunate. In Nova Scotia that happens roughly 10 per cent or less. So it does happen but it's not a common thing. It's always a very difficult thing when it happens.

AMT: So this is why you're talking about you need the sort of the infrastructure around it to have the conversations and the whole system working because otherwise it's so difficult to deal because you are dealing with so much distress.

DR. STEPHEN BEED: And it's an uncommon clinical situation. The number of people who would qualify clinically as potential organ donors is ballpark 1 per cent or so of the people who would die in an ICU. So even in smaller intensive care units the medical people will not have many situations like this and they may not be comfortable or familiar with things. So having trained coordinators who are familiar and deal with this regularly really does improve the consent discussion, having intensive care physician to deal with this frequently, or donation physicians who are support for the medical teams to help deal with these uncommon but difficult circumstances really do help.

AMT: Dr. Beed thanks for your insights. Thank you very much.

DR. STEPHEN BEED: No problem. No problem at all. Thank you, Anna Maria.

AMT: Dr. Stephen Beed is an intensive care physician currently doing work at two hospitals in Saskatoon. He spends much of the year in Halifax, and is the national chair of the deceased donation advisory committee of Canadian Blood Services. Dr. Eric Yoshida has been doing liver transplants for almost three decades, and he's studied the impact organ donations can have on grief-stricken family members of donors. He's a professor of medicine at UBC and a transplant physician at Vancouver General Hospital, and he joins me from Vancouver. Hello Dr. Yoshida.

DR. ERIC YOSHIDA: Thank you. I'm the medical side of transplantation. The surgeons do the actual cutting just to clarify that and not to misrepresent myself.

AMT: Ok thank you for that. I'm just wondering what you have learned. We just heard that you know often you have people in great distress trying to make decisions about their loved ones but you started to think about the benefits.

DR. ERIC YOSHIDA: Yes. It had bothered me for a long time. On the recipient side of transplantation I mean we look after the recipients of the liver transplants and it always bothered me that perhaps on the donation side that maybe we were actually aggravating the sense of loss, contributing to depression, and maybe even contributing to post-traumatic stress. And nobody had actually looked at this question like the long term effects and B.C. Transplant which is the organ procurement agency as Dr. Beed had mentioned we do have a professional set of coordinators and health care professionals who are experts at doing this they didn't actually have any records or they didn't know either. So we partnered and we decided to actually look at this and to my great relief the hypothesis was that organ donation process may actually be harmful but to my great relief the overwhelming majority like over 90 per cent of the donor families said that it actually comforted them. And then we had a [unintelligible] do some fancy stuff that was way beyond me called multiple linear regression who found that [unintelligible] there was a depression index questionnaire sent with them and it took a lot of work for the donor families because there were three questionnaires. And I thank them. It actually had a beneficial effect they were less likely depressed if they felt that organ donation was actually comforting them. So for me personally that was extremely relieving. It allowed me to continue my job with a good conscience.

AMT: I guess for everyone working in that area it points to the benefits even more difficult to have those conversations.

DR. ERIC YOSHIDA: Well I mean to be totally honest with you we or the organ retrieval coordinators they go in and they approach these families at the worst possible moment you know when their lives are just totally irreversibly shattered and they ask them to do something that in many cultures is something you just should not say. And you know for them to put their needs ahead of somebody else and agree to do this is I think absolutely remarkable. And Logan Boulet’s family is like I give them nothing but kudos and love. You know I mean the tragedy in Humboldt as a father whose son played hockey for six years just shattered me but you know what I heard about this I was almost in tears. Let me say this defines us as a nation because Taiwan has done a similar study like a few years after we did. We did ours in 2008. It was published in 2008. They did not find that result. They found conflict within families. They found people were worried about what was happening to the deceased afterlife. And there was a suspicion that the organ donation may affect the afterlife. So this is something I think that we can say is unique to Canada. There's a sense of generosity in the face of total tragedy.

AMT: I think that's extraordinary. Dr. Yoshida, thank you for sharing those results with us.

DR. ERIC YOSHIDA: Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

AMT: Dr. Eric Yoshida a professor of medicine at UBC and a transplant physician at Vancouver General Hospital. Let us know what you think of what he just said that this defines us as a nation and what you think of the larger issue because as you heard a push to make it easier to donate organs and to have a situation where families cannot revoke the wishes of the deceased. You can tweet us we are @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook. Go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. And stay with us. Coming up in our next half hour, she's been a public figure in Canada for decades, but in our next half hour you'll get to know another side of Judy Rebick. She's just written her memoir talking about things she’s never spoken about in public before. Her book is called Heroes in My Head. Judy Rebick joins me right after the break. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current on CBC Radio One, Sirius XM, online on cbc.ca/thecurrent, on podcast, and on your radio app.

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Judy Rebick's 11 multiple personalities helped her cope with abuse she suffered as a child

Guest: Judy Rebick

AMT: I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: The opening of Dr. Morgentaler’s abortion clinic on the upper floors of this house began peacefully enough early this morning. But when Dr. Morgentaler arrived in mid-afternoon he was lunged at by a man holding as pair of garden shears.

[Sound: Yelling]

VOICE 1: Police arrived and searched a house. A man was charged with assault and possession of a dangerous weapon. Dr. Morgentaler was shaken and angry.

VOICE 3: This is what we are up against, fanatics, religious zealots, people who want to deny them the freedom.

VOICE 4: This one is crazy. He was probably inflamed by choice propaganda and it's unfortunate that this happened and creates a diversion from what the real issue is which is the right to choose for women.

AMT: It was a historic moment in the fight for abortion rights in Canada. Dr. Henry Morgentaler attacked by a man with garden shears as he tried to open his Toronto clinic. And it shot pro-choice activist Judy Rebick who we heard as the final voice in that clip into a national spotlight as well. Judy Rebick was walking with Dr. Morgentaler at the time. She shielded him from the attacker. And Dr. Morgentaler thanked her for saving his life. Since that day, Judy Rebick had made waves of her own across this country, as a feminist and activist, lending her powerful voice to causes from abortion rights and violence against women, to the rights of the deaf. But she's also come to see her bravery that day, and since in a new light as she's uncovered secrets from her past that had been hidden even from herself. Judy Rebick is a former head of the National Action Committee on the Status of Women, and is founder of the independent news site rabble.ca. She has written a new memoir titled, Heroes in My Head. And Judy Rebick is with me in our Toronto studio. Hello.

JUDY REBICK: Hello Anna Maria.

AMT: What happened that day when you stood between Henry Morgentaler and that man who attacked him?

JUDY REBICK: Well he came out and there was a big media scrum as you might imagine and we were crossing the street. And I wasn't really paying that much attention and all of a sudden I heard a hubbub and I turned and I just saw this guy grab Dr. Morgentaler so I pulled his hand off and there was another woman walking on Dr. Morgentaler's other side and she hurried him into the clinic. And I pushed the guy and then I started chasing him which was kind of silly because he did have garden shares which then I saw after I pushed him and as you heard the bit of a tussle with him — the verbal tussle. So I followed him almost to where he lived and then the other woman came and got me because I was kind of not 100 per cent there.

AMT: How did your perceptions of what happened that day change over the years?

JUDY REBICK: It wasn't until that night when I saw it on TV that I really realized that I had stepped really between the garden shears and Dr. Morgentaler in other words I put my life at stake which I didn't really realize I was doing. And many years later when I was diagnosed with dissociation with what we now call dissociative identity disorder but was then called multiple personality disorder I realized that I had this capacity to not feel fear. I was fearless. And so I could be in a situation like that very calm, I thought it was because I was trained as a marshal and you know I was kind of — I can't say that on radio — but I was a tough lady at that time. And I realized that I was dissociated from my feelings, when there's danger something took over that made me like that.

AMT: Well let's talk about more of that. Your view of your past changed as memories started to surface from your childhood. What did you remember?

JUDY REBICK: The first thing I remembered while I was involved in the pro-choice struggle was being abused as a child; like I had a memory of lying down and being touched in a sexual way by a grown man. But I didn't know who the man was and I didn't want to deal with it. Like I was you know in the middle of what was probably one of the most ferocious struggles you have ever had in this country. And that's what I wanted to do. And I was in therapy but I was finishing therapy and I didn't want to deal with it so I put it away as I had put away lots of other memories in the past.

AMT: They would come to you just like in little flashes, right?

JUDY REBICK: Yeah like a flash. Yeah.

AMT: And then it would go away.

JUDY REBICK: Yeah that's right. It could come in a flash and then go away.

AMT: So you were in therapy and you started to understand a few things. What did you come to understand?

JUDY REBICK: Well so I was in therapy in the early 80s. Like in 1980 I suffered a very, very severe clinical depression. I couldn't do anything. I couldn't eat. I couldn't sleep. Nothing. And I didn't believe in therapy. You know I thought it was a petty bourgeois indulgence or something like that but I couldn't function so I had to go into therapy. And in that therapy I realized that I had been burying all my feelings. Other than anger, I was a very angry person, and in the pro-choice movement I had a good target for that. But other than anger I really didn't feel much. So my therapist helped me get in touch with my feelings. Then in 1989 I was involved in a case people may or may not remember Barbara Dodd who we had fought successfully and abortion was now legal in Canada and her boyfriend tried to get an injunction to stop her from having an abortion and she was deaf. I was fluent in [unintelligible]. So Clayton Ruby asked me if I would sit with her in court and explain what was happening in court. After she had the abortion she changed her mind her. Her boyfriend was involved with the anti-choice and he was pressuring her and she changed her mind and she said the women's movement pressured her into it. I was the only one who was with her from the women’s movement and I never even talked to her about the abortion. Her sister said to me he's taken control of her mind and for some reason that just made me really lose touch with the present. And I started to have a huge number of memories of abuse like just one after the other just filled my head. I couldn't think of anything else. And so I went again to a therapist this was a woman therapist that I knew and started in on the therapy and by the second day of the therapy I realized that the man was my father.

AMT: And in the process of doing that you discover that you have disassociated — what's the phrase?

JUDY REBICK: They call it dissociative identity disorder now. But at that time it was called multiple personality disorder.

AMT: Right. And you discover — over time — how many personalities?

JUDY REBICK: 11 personalities. Only about four or five were dominant. Some of them just came once and that was it.

AMT: And this is because as a child your mind basically fragmented into these personalities to protect you.

JUDY REBICK: Yes to protect me. It's very common for children to forget what happened to them; severe trauma to forget for a very long time, right? But so dissociative identity disorder is an extreme version of that. So the little girl forgets that what happened to her the night before. And then when she hears the steps coming to the room she comes back into knowing but it's not her it's someone else. So it's like a child's imagination creates imaginary friends who are conscious of the abuse so she's not conscious of the abuse because for a child it's the feelings of being abused by anyone but especially someone who's supposed to protect you is overwhelming. You can't bear it. You would lose your ability to function. And so I dissociated. And these personalities all but one were children between the ages of five and 12 and they held the memory of the abuse all my life and it didn't get revealed to me until you know at that time all the memories came back.

AMT: So how old were you when you figured this out?

JUDY REBICK: 45.

AMT: And you had been like this career where we all remember — I mean you're at the forefront of the fight for abortion rights; you’re living a very functional life.

JUDY REBICK: Yes, and a very public life.

AMT: Yes. But they didn't surface in public.

JUDY REBICK: No because they came out in therapy and they would introduce themselves to the therapists. You know first they'd say "Where's Jack?" That's my father. Every one of them would say "Where's Jack?" To make sure that I'm safe, right? And then they would introduce themselves their name was quite something. You know like it was like "Hello I'm Simon."

AMT: And to the therapists.

JUDY REBICK: To the therapists.

AMT: You would be sitting there but they would be talking.

JUDY REBICK: That's right. So the feeling of it is someone’s talking through my mouth but I'm not in control of it. Like I feel like I'm somewhere in the back of my head watching but I have no control over it. First I felt I had no control turned out I did have some control but it felt like I didn't have any and I didn't control when they emerged, when they came out, and I didn't control them disappearing.

AMT: You call them the alters.

JUDY REBICK: Yeah.

AMT: The alternates.

JUDY REBICK: That's the term the therapist used: alter personalities. Yeah.

AMT: Ok. Can you name them for us and tell us who they were?

JUDY REBICK: I'll try. Well Simon was the guardian. There's always a guardian personality that knows about the others because they don't all know about the others. I think he was about 12-years-old and very rational.

AMT: He was the first one.

JUDY REBICK: He was first one. He's checking to see if it's safe, and then in no particular order. There was Sophie was kind of you could say flirtatious a bit you know and wanted to have more fun and would come out if let's say I was attracted to somebody. And then there was Priscilla / Portia. She had two names at the beginning. It was Priscilla and then changed to Portia who was younger. I don't know how young and who was very angry. Then it was Him the only one without a name.

AMT: And Him was the angriest.

JUDY REBICK: The angry. Yeah I just had called him rage personified. He hated Marcia. He hated me.

AMT: Marsha's the therapist.

JUDY REBICK: Marcia the therapist. Yeah he was just always furious. And then there was the little one. So Lobo is five-years-old and he could run really fast. And Mary was five-years-old. Another one that was very prominent was trouble who was kind of like a trickster kind of personality but also made me sick. He would make me sick when things got really bad. And as far as I can tell they didn't come out until the therapy sessions but they did act throughout my life and in the stories I tell in the book I try and point out where I think I dissociated, where I might have gone into an alter personality, and then what happens in my adult is I lose time. I can't remember what happened for the last 10 minutes or 15 minutes.

AMT: It's again worth remembering as I was reading your story you're living a full and functional life and I want to back up a little bit because this is not the only thing you talk about. Again we know you as Judy Rebick the woman who has been at the forefront of so many rights issues in Canada and not afraid to speak your mind and not afraid to take on politicians. But you were an activist from a young age; you were also a free spirit of the 60s.

JUDY REBICK: Yes.

AMT: You were trippin’ out on LSD.

JUDY REBICK: [Laughs] I was, yeah.

AMT: I don't think a lot of us would have known that.

JUDY REBICK: I don't think I'd come across like an old hippie [laughs].

AMT: You actually let the Grateful Dead and Jefferson Airplane crash at your place what was it during the Expo 67?

JUDY REBICK: Yeah during Expo 67.

AMT: You had all of them at your place.

JUDY REBICK: Yeah, there was a knock on the door and it was the manager of the Grateful Dead and the Jefferson Airplane. They were going to play at Expo and he said we heard from Paul Krassner that Roger — the guy who was with me at that time — is cool and we wonder if you have room for us to crash, we can sleep on the floor it's ok. So I said ok. And I never heard of the Grateful Dead at that time. I knew that Jefferson Airplane had the number one song in the world: White Rabbit. Right. But not Grace Slick she stayed in a hotel which the guys at Jefferson Airplane said with contempt you know [laughs].

AMT: How dare she?

JUDY REBICK: And so I hung out with the Grateful Dead with Jerry Garcia and Mountain Girl who was his partner and Pig Pen and they were. I really liked them. They were really interesting people.

AMT: It's so interesting that these rock bands were so great would just want to crash somewhere.

JUDY REBICK: Exactly, the ethic of the 60s, right? And the other thing I would say is that like they brought tons of food, they cleaned up, like it was part of their lifestyle, right? It was communal living. I think they're the best house guests I ever had [laughs].

AMT: They wanted to take you with them. When they left your place they were going to Timothy Leary's farm, probably to trip out.

JUDY REBICK: Yes. And I started to get in the back seat and I realize they're all tripping on acid. I wasn't sure about the drivers and I just thought this is really dangerous to do this. And that's another thing like I was very because I was fearless I was very adventurous when I was young but something always stopped me from going too far and I think that was the alters actually.

AMT: So how do you explain smuggling hash out of Israel?

JUDY REBICK: [Laughs]. Ok well I was staying at a kibbutz where you could get hash. And that was important to me because like I say I was a hippie. I was going to Greece and Greece then was a dictatorship under the generals so you couldn't get hash in Greece or it got any kind of pot. So I figured why would the Israelis care if I take hash out of Israel and the Greeks would never search my body because I'm female, right? So I bought some hash and I put it in a Kotex pad, in my pants, and I went to the port. As soon as they looked they read my name they called out something and the man came it was a man in a suit so I knew I was in trouble so I had time to think through a strategy. And they started to search my bag and they looked everywhere it could have been you know like they looked at the bread to see if there are holes in the bread, etc. And I was very lighthearted. Oh what are you looking for microfiche? You know like whatever. And then they said go with her. And I said what for? And I knew what for but I said what for.

AMT: Body search.

JUDY REBICK: And she said body search. And I said what? And then I became like an entitled potential immigrant: "I'm Jewish and I'm a college graduate and I was thinking of immigrating to Israel before this. This is supposed to be my homeland. I travelled all over Europe I've never been body search." And I just went on like that like there was no way I hated Israel. I wasn't going to go back. But I just went on and on and I was lucky because the woman was younger than me. I was about 22, 23, and she was about 19. And when I got down to my underpants and I had a bandage on my foot because I stepped on glass and the doctor had bandaged it and she said take off the bandage and I said I'm not risking an infection for this stupidity. So she says ok take off your pants and I just looked her in the eye and I said I am not taking off my pants. And I basically told you want my pants off you take them off. I have my period and I am not. And she said ok. And so I just kept yelling because I can't look relieved, right? So I just kept yelling at everybody yelling, yelling, yelling, and then I got on the boat and I flushed it down the toilet [laughs].

AMT: It's an amazing story. Again it's a side of Judy Rebick we might not know from your professional life.

JUDY REBICK: I'll probably never get into Israel again either [laughs].

AMT: Did those alters play any role in any of those scenes do you think in retrospect?

JUDY REBICK: Oh yeah I think you know customs people are really trained to pick up on fear and anxiety. Well I didn't have any fear or anxiety and so I was able to very coolly assess the situation and think up a strategy which I think I probably would have been too nervous to do if I had been feeling all my feelings so that's an example where it came in. And as I said with the Grateful Dead I think if I had gone to Timothy Leary's farm with the Grateful Dead I may never have come back you know because my brain really was injured you know. And who knows what would have happened if I'd gotten into a situation like that where I couldn't control it, right?

AMT: So they would come out in as you say in therapy but then you began journaling. Tell us a little bit about how they came out that way. Well one of the things we noticed is that they were very anxious to come out. When Lobo came out it was the second one I think to come out.

AMT: The little boy.

JUDY REBICK: The little boy, yeah. And they sort of stuck around for a bit after I left the therapy office and he saw a Dairy Queen and he wanted to go and he sort of came fully into my body and started skipping to the Dairy Queen. So I thought oh like is this going to keep happening. It was my idea to a journal, right? But then Marsha suggested that I also let them come out with very close friends who knew what was happening to me, right? Yeah. So I started to journal because I started to feel like I was dissociating at home because it's a physical feeling… my body feels kind of shivery. And I said Who's there. I just wrote it. Who's there. And the thing is amazing there are some pictures of it in the book as the writings all different, right?

AMT: You didn't even realize that at first.

JUDY REBICK: No I didn't realize that at first. I guess when I was going through the healing and I should say that at the beginning of the healing I was approached to run for president of the National Action Committee a Status of Women which at the time was the largest women's group in the country and my therapist didn't think I should do it. My brother didn't think I should do it. But the therapy itself was such a feeling of helplessness that I thought if I could do something in my life where I feel powerful it will help me because I don't think I could get through this otherwise. So I agreed to do it. So I really couldn't have these alters come out in public [laughs].

AMT: And you made provisions for that, you talked to the executive director, you made sure that you didn't bill it with people who actually stayed in hotels to give yourself the space.

JUDY REBICK: Because sometimes certain men made them afraid and when they were afraid they would come out right. You know so normal thing would be for a president to stay at the house of an executive member. And I said I can't do that it's too risky so I stayed in hotels.

AMT: And through all of this you are essentially; what's the language you were reconciling or you were fusing these personalities like you were integrating.

JUDY REBICK: Yeah well it took a while for them all to come out. And then there's a process of integration. So you have to accept that these are fragments of your personality. You know it's not like somebody else. Not like I'm hearing that I think this is another person. There are fragments of your personality. So you have to accept them — you don't have to. But I mean one method of therapy and the one that Marcia used was you have to kind of make friends with them and listen to them. You don’t have to do what they say but listen to what's bothering them because it's bothering you, right? And over time I think about almost three years process.

AMT: And that was how long ago now?

JUDY REBICK: 1989 to 1992 — when the book ends 1992.

AMT: And they've never come back?

JUDY REBICK: No, I have dissociated since then but I remain conscious. I've lost time once or twice but not for very long.

AMT: Is it a constant thing that you must keep being aware of?

JUDY REBICK: No. I think I'm aware of the feeling of dissociation now and when I start to feel it I know what to do to bring myself back into the present so that's what I do.

AMT: And again you were confronting trauma in childhood. At one point your parents have both died.

JUDY REBICK: Yes.

AMT: But you did confront your father.

JUDY REBICK: Yeah.

AMT: What was that like?

JUDY REBICK: The drive up to my parents place was the most frightened I've ever been in my life; like I was holding onto the wheel really, really hard. I was really frightened. But it seemed like once I saw him and he was an old man and he was kind of feeble at that point. It was like they disappeared. The alters almost disappeared because they saw that he couldn't hurt me anymore so there wasn't a purpose for them anymore. That's what I feel happened at least in part.

AMT: He never admitted to it.

JUDY REBICK: No he never admitted to it.

AMT: Never apologized.

JUDY REBICK: No. Never admitted to it, never apologized. But you know my father was a really tough guy and he had friends you know and he acknowledged that I had been sexually abused but it wasn't him who did it. And I knew my father and he would move heaven and earth to find out who did do it you know. And he wasn't interested in that. He just wanted to deny it. So it wasn't a very convincing denial.

AMT: What about your mom?

JUDY REBICK: I don't believe my mother knew what was happening but she didn't know something was wrong as she admitted to me when I talked to her at that time. I think she didn't have the ability to deal with it and so she didn't. And then later I think once my father died I was able to heal my relationship with my mother. And I was glad for that because I really love my mother, was a wonderful person.

AMT: You talk about the stigma of mental health issues, you don't consider this mental illness.

JUDY REBICK: For me I don't know because I think it's kind of brilliant defense mechanism that a child can do. The child uses the only weapon she has which is her imagination.

AMT: When you talk about stigma you make the point that when you were leading the National Action Committee on the Status of Women which at the time was not universally liked, you got a lot of grief from political opponents, right? I mean are you worried about a backlash of people stigmatizing you like saying “Aha. Judy Rebick.” You know or do you care?

JUDY REBICK: I don't care anymore you know. It would bother me. I'm not saying it wouldn't. Especially Twitter you know it's relentless, right? But I don't think it's a reason not to do. I talk in the book about you know because I was really under threat during the pro-choice movement, people are trying to get me fired from work, somebody try to throw me off that subway platform. It was really serious threats and I talked to Henry Morgentaler about it and said “How do you how do you deal with this?” And he said “Well you know we can't let these people stop us from doing what we believe we have to do.” And that helped me at that time and I kind of feel that way now. You know the stigma on people who have mental health problems is really serious. We just handle it so badly and I think because of my privilege in the world you know I'm white and middle class, I'm well known, all those things, successful, you know all the ways that I have privilege I am able to tell this story. I didn't get marginalized. I could have at any point in the story I could have been marginalized, I could have wound up you know addicted to heroin or in the street. But I didn't.

AMT: You kept you kept fighting for like you know you fought the Meech Lake Accord, Indigenous rights during the Oka crisis. You've spent a life time using your voice to fight for the rights of others.

JUDY REBICK: Yes. It was healing for me like you know I was injured and nobody helped me. And so by helping others not in a social service way but in my case I did it in an advocacy way. It really made me feel better. And I think it does make you feel better. And the fighting, the standing up; one I was fearless and two I had a lot of anger. So it gave me a constructive way to use that anger. You know I don't tell the story in the book. But I was in a meeting with Michael Wilson who was the Victoria finance minister and at a certain point in the meeting, he is a really big guy, he sort of bulks up and moves across the table at me, and I said to him “Minister you know you might use those bully tactics on other people but doesn't work on me.” There was like a gasp in the room like nobody could believe I would talk to a minister like that, right? But I was really good. I had lots of practice standing up to bullies because of my father. So I was good at standing up to bullies and so I say that the injuries that I had and the disorder that I had actually made me a better activist.

AMT: In light of what you've been through and what you have learned about yourself and how you are today writing about all of this. How do you want us to view mental health not mental illness? How do you want us to view mental health differently?

JUDY REBICK: I think we have to say that everybody's brain is different and we perceive the world differently and we have to be more accepting of that behaviour. I'm hoping that by me coming forward with what most people would consider to be a serious mental illness it helps to make that happen. And I think I'd like to see that happen.

AMT: Thanks for being so honest.

JUDY REBICK: I can't help it. [laughs].

AMT: Thanks a lot.

JUDY REBICK: Thank you.

AMT: Judy Rebick is a feminist and Canadian activist. She is the former head of the National Action Committee on the Status of Women and founder of rabble.ca. Her new memoir is called, Heroes in My Head. Judy Rebick was with me in our Toronto studio. Let us know what you think of what she had to say today. You can tweet us we are @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook. Go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. Another side of Judy Rebick we find out today. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. 80s pop sensation Rick Astley drops by the studio to talk about his career in music. After a 15-year run of rants, satire and cross-Canada adventure, the Rick Mercer Report ends its run tonight. You can catch him on CBC Television, main channel, tonight at 8 o'clock. Catch him online as well. We're going to give Rick the last word. Here is the wonderful Rick Mercer with a very Canadian moment looking at the seven day weather forecast. We're going to miss you Rick. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thanks for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: The whole five-day forecast is freezing.

VOICE 2: What about day six?

VOICE 1: Freezing.

VOICE 2: What about day seven? Rob what is it?

VOICE 1: Plus one.

[Sound: Crowd laughs]

VOICE 2: Plus one.

VOICE 1: Plus one. We’ve waited so long for something like this.

[Music: Theme]

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April 10, 2018 Full Episode Transcript

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