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The Current Transcript for March 30, 2018

Host: Piya Chattopadhyay

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

I became a surrogate about a year and a half ago. It's something I always wanted to do. So this is my way of giving up something that absolutely priceless and will change everybody's life.

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Ashley's a surrogate in the Maritimes and the gift she gave to a couple by carrying their child was priceless of course because it made their family dream come true. But it was also priceless because Canadian surrogates cannot charge for their service though that may be changing. Proposed legislation would bring Canadian surrogates in line with their American peers who can be paid for carrying to term and for their labour in the truest sense of that word. First up today a conversation with surrogate moms in our country to hear what they think of the proposed change. Also today, on this abridged Good Friday edition of The Current, we're bringing you an Encore presentation of The Current documentary that's just been named as a finalist for Canadian Journalism Award.

SOUNDCLIP

You'll be able to see [unintelligible] apologise to your face because I know how much it's hurt your community and people you love. And I didn't know as much as I should've known

PC: You'll hear about documentary, I Want to Understand, in about half an hour. Hi I'm Piya Chattopadhyay and this is the Friday edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

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Should surrogate mothers be paid for their labour?

Guests: Leia Swanberg, Heather Jopling, Stephanie Plante

PC: Starting a dream starting a family is a dream that's frustratingly out of reach for many Canadians. And while couples with fertility issues, gay couples, single folk and others may be willing to go to great lengths and costs to start that family of their own there is one avenue that some feel could be more accessible. I'm talking about surrogacy, where a would be parent or parents connect with another woman to carry their child. Plenty of Canadian women have acted as surrogates offering their bodies to help others have children of their own. But in Canada those women can not be paid for surrogacy beyond expenses they incur. Now one MP wants to change that. Liberal Anthony Housefather says Canada's law is out of touch.

SOUNDCLIP

The assisted human reproduction act was based on a commission that was started in 1988, finished in 1993, called the Baird Commission and did not hear from people today that are the most impacted in fertility. There was no conception that gay couples could be parents, let alone be married. There was no conception that singles may want to be parents and there was no representation amongst infertile heterosexual couples.

PC: Thus Liberal MP Anthony Housefather who represents a Montreal riding. He announced this week that he will soon introduce a bill allowing surrogate mothers to charge for their services. Today were going to speak with three women who have been surrogates to see what they think about this idea. And first up I'm joined by Heather Jopling in Cobourg Ontario. Hello.

HEATHER JOPLING: Good morning.

PC: How did you first become a surrogate mother?

HEATHER JOPLING: I was a surrogate in 2005.

PC: Tell me the circumstances that led to that.

HEATHER JOPLING: Our family is a little bit different than others, I guess. My husband in 2004 was a sperm donor for our friends who are a lesbian couple and when we were at a Christmas party where the mother was announcing her pregnancy at four months to our friends, I ran into an old friend from university and his husband who mentioned that they were interested in having as many kids as possible. They already had one through surrogacy and we just got chatting and I hit it off very very quickly and by the time I was driving home from that party I told my husband, I said: "I think I could have a baby for them:. And he said: "I think you're crazy".

PC: [Laughs] That was sort of a spur of the moment conversation with your husband after a party and after meeting these people, but how did you come to the decision? How did you go: "Yes I'm going to do this".

HEATHER JOPLING: It was honestly a light bulb moment for me watching these two men when their first daughter was amazing. We held very similar ideas and raising kids. They were obviously great dads and it was very very easy for me to imagine helping them. Because we had this relationship with our lesbian friends, talked about surrogacy and I said I mentioned to them you know if it didn't work out for them to carry the baby that I might be able to carry the baby. I don't know if it would have happened had I not been at that particular party at that night, if it would have manifested into surrogacy. But because we happened to be at the right place at the right time that's kind of what drove that decision for me.

PC: And you and your husband did you have a child or children of your own at the time?

HEATHER JOPLING: We do yes. We have our own daughter and she was born in 2000 and through surrogacy and sperm donation she has a half-sister and a half-brother who are four and five years younger than her respectively.

PC: And so you still in contact with the people that you were surrogate for.

HEATHER JOPLING: We do. We do. One family lives in Toronto and the other one lives in Ottawa. We see them maybe three or four times a year. So we're not in each other's back pockets but we have connections and we contact them and you know do things at the holidays and in the summers that sort of things.

PC: And so I think one of the things people think about, Heather, I mean there are women of course who are surrogates but it is kind of not a familiar experience for so many of us. So a lot of people think like carrying someone else's baby to term and then that moment in the hospital where you have to give the baby to the parents. Was that difficult for you in any way to give their baby to the fathers, the one that you carry?

HEATHER JOPLING: Actually that was not the difficult part of the surrogacy for me because my husband and I had decided that we really were fine with one child of our own. We knew we didn't want to have any more children. And I knew that when I was getting pregnant I was having a baby for another family and that baby was even though I was a traditional surrogate - and by that I mean you know it was my egg and I was gestating the child - she's biologically half mine but I never thought of her as mine while I was pregnant. And the difficulties for me came after the birth because as a surrogate you have about 10 months to 40 weeks where everybody tells you you're wonderful, and you are the focus for the intended family for you know for that time. And also because we were friends with the family you know they'd be checking in and making sure it was okay. And then of course when the baby's born they have a brand new baby and she was a little bit colicky. They were very focused on her. I also told them you know don't tell me when her belly button falls off. I don't want to I don't want to get all the nitty gritty details about her because I don't know how I'm going to react emotionally. I didn't know. And that was my husband's concern and that was my family's concern. They felt that I wouldn't be able to separate emotionally and of course they respected my wishes and didn't contact me. But I missed them. I missed talking to my friends on a daily basis. And the one thing for me is that, as a surrogate mother, when you do give birth you don't have that baby in your arms to which people then offer their congratulations or talk about how beautiful this child is. Basically you are left with the kind of bread dough stomach and sore breasts because you're not breastfeeding and all of that attention that you'd have had - that any woman has as a pregnant woman because everybody is enthralled with pregnancy - then completely disappears.

PC: And so I want to get to the expenses part, Heather, with you because under the current law, surrogates get paid for their expenses, things like maternity clothes, medication. And now there's this discussion that's emerging at least by the Liberal MP who says you know what a surrogate should be paid beyond reimbursable expenses beyond that. Where do you stand on that?

HEATHER JOPLING: It's really interesting because from my standpoint like your initial idea, my initial idea for the surrogacy is is completely altruistic. And then when you talk about money, money changes it from a from this altruistic expectations to one where you are commoditising your progeny, for all intents and purposes. Now that being said you know like I think if you have strict legislation so that you're not preying upon people, women, who are perhaps maybe not of equal socio-economic status so that they're not in a position where they're being preyed upon as a potential carrier. That's my big worry.

PC: Okay I'm going to hold you up there. I want to bring in another voice. Stephanie Plante has also been a surrogate. She carried a baby for a same sex couple in Spain where surrogacy is illegal. Stephanie Plante joins us from our Ottawa Studio. Hello.

STEPHANIE PLANTE: Hello.

PC: Why did you decide to become a surrogate?

STEPHANIE PLANTE: Well I always wanted to sort of imbue this idea of you know public service and volunteerism to my son. In 2016 you may remember the world was a bit upside down. We had Brexit. We had the shootings in Orlando, Bataclan, San Bernardino, London and the world was just a crazy place. Trump was getting elected. And so I remember thinking at the time what can I do at this point in my life to make the world a better place. And there is nothing I love more in this world than my son. I love being a parent. I love how confronting and brilliant and enriching parenthood is. And I thought well if I can be a vessel for that sort of legacy of helping someone start a family especially a gay couple then I was going to do it and I did.

PC: And like Heather, Stephanie, you fall under the current law which says you can get your expenses paid for. So what did you get paid for in terms of being a surrogate?

STEPHANIE PLANTE: So I would take an Uber to my midwifery appointments those were reimbursed, maternity clothing, the breast pump the multi-vitamins, that sort of thing.

PC: It is expensive that all adds up, right?

STEPHANIE PLANTE: Yes.

PC: So what do you think of Anthony Housefather's proposal to allow compensation for carnelian surrogates?

STEPHANIE PLANTE: Well I think we have a bit of a tangled complication when it comes to women and work when they're using their bodies for work. And so I don't have an issue with it. I actually think that women are perfectly capable to make decisions about their bodies for themselves. And I don't think we need to have all party committees and royal commissions and expert panels and all this kind of stuff the sort of pathologises women's work. And I think he's on the right track. I mean if I am a man and I decide to go to Afghanistan and put my body in harm's way I'm given a book tour and I am given a speaker circuit and I'm given a pension. And there's just not that same kind of reward at the end of the day for a lot of the work women do and this would be a way of recognising that.

PC: Heather Jopling, what do you make of Stephanie's argument that this is work and it's women choosing to use their bodies for altruistic reasons. Why not get paid for it?

HEATHER JOPLING: I think I think as long as you're talking about women and prospective parents who are of the same socio-economic kind of place then, definitely, if you have somebody who is able to navigate legalities and contracts, not a problem with that at all. My worry probably comes from talks that I've given to potential fathers to be where they're outsourcing to other countries, Third World countries, is that we need to really be sure that these women are making the choice on their own not through an agency, not because they have to. They have no other way to make money. That sort of thing for me is what concerns me.

PC: So it's a class thing.

HEATHER JOPLING: Well yes and to say it is a class thing makes my stomach drop. But I think that we really have to be cognisant of the fact that there are that there are poor people in Canada who might look at this as a as a salvation and that is something that we just have to be careful

PC: Okay I want to bring in our third guest now. Leia Swanberg has been both an egg donor and twice a surrogate mother. She also runs a fertility consulting agency and we have reached her in Qualicum Beach BC. Hello.

LEIA SWANBERG: Good morning.

PC: Leia should surrogates in your opinion, Canadian surrogates, be compensated?

LEIA SWANBERG: I think that in order to look at a compensation model, first decriminalisation has to happen. And being a part of the working group that Anthony Housefather has put together through our consulting firms fertility advisors, has been an absolute opportunity to have that conversation with members of parliament to have surrogates, egg donors and intended parents at the table which hasn't occurred until now. The Baird Commission, as well as other ethical debates and conversations around this process, has never included intended parents and surrogates. So while the last speaker spoke to socioeconomic background, I don't believe that it takes money or a certain economic background to be able to make an informed decision to be able to participate in surrogacy. And quite frankly fertility clinics, lawyers, psychologists, all of those in the industry are working to protect women as is our consulting firm. You know which is an agency and our role really is to ensure that all parties have the information to make an informed decision.

PC: Okay so Leia you run this company that gives information helps women who were going to be surrogates sort of get the [unintelligible] and navigate that. And you brought up the idea that it needs to be decriminalised first, because in 2013 you were charged under Canada's assisted human reproduction Act - which came into place in 2004 - for repaying money to surrogates. You pleaded guilty; you paid a 60,000 dollar fine. Did you know you were breaking the law and how were you breaking the law?

LEIA SWANBERG: I was breaking the law by reimbursing surrogates and egg donors without receipts. And I didn't understand at all that that was breaking the law at the time.

PC: Reimbursing them for what? When you say expenses, what were you reimbursing them for?

LEIA SWANBERG: So under the law reimbursement of expenses is allowed. However receipts need to be in place and I was reimbursing those women with their [unintelligible], with their listing of what those receipts were. And you know during my case I understood that the receipt needs to be in place ahead of reimbursement going out. And we had a legal opinion drafted during my case to present to the judge which was accepted and it is now how we operate, which is you send in a receipt for your prenatal vitamins, mileage, whatever those expenses are that reflect our legal agreement that you signed with the intended parents. And then we in turn reimburse that expense on behalf of the intended parent.

PC: Okay. Getting back to the focus of the proposed legislation, Leia, if women cleaning women should be compensated, how much do we compensate women for? If we look at the U.S. where it is legal to see them, what are we looking at is ballpark figures.

LEIA SWANBERG: I haven't even looked that far ahead and when I speak to surrogates that have been participating in this conversation with these days on the Hill speaking to employees, nobody is attaching figures to it. What the surrogates that I speak to and surrogates in our programs are saying is: "We as women want to decide what expenses we have in our particular pregnancy because each woman has very different expenses, whether that's organic meals, whether that's they live in Sudbury Ontario and need to travel to a fertility clinic in Toronto and what that looks like in terms of taking time away from their families and their lives. And so I don't believe anyone is attaching a number to it. I think at this point the focus has really been on decriminalising so that intended parents and surrogates feel safe to have the discussion and end the consultation with members of Health Canada to come up with a system that works for everyone.

PC: And I should just point out, under the current law if a woman who is pregnant - a surrogate woman who is pregnant - is working outside the home and has to go on bed rest or something like that, if they have a medical certificate they can get reimbursed for that. So that's another cost that is currently paid for it, should that occur. But I want to play the three of you some tape. This is Francoise Baylis She's a professor at Dalhousie University and at Canada Research Chair in Bioethics and Philosophy and she disagrees that surrogate's should be paid.

SOUNDCLIP

Canada typically is a country that has prided itself on not putting the human body in the market place. We don't celebrate something like selling organs, selling bone marrow, selling skin, selling blood, selling plasma. I don't think it’s part of Canadian values to say 'let’s put the human body into the marketplace. Let’s encourage people to sell off their bits and pieces'

PC: All right Stephanie Plante what do you think of that? I'll get all of you. Stephanie what do you think of that?

STEPHANIE PLANTE: It’s an interesting discussion because it assumes that women are not already using their bodies for some sort of monetary purposes. Women are nurses, women or teachers, women are caregivers, women work in senior homes. It's majority of women who work in those jobs and so we are using our body. It is just maybe not in the way that people think is- that they're are just not comfortable with and so that's why people kind of equate it with like selling your organs, which is not

PC: Heather Jopling where are you on what Francoise Baylis says? We don't pay for people for blood and bone marrow and other organs in Canada and we shouldn't be paying surrogates. Where you weigh in on this?

HEATHER JOPLING: I believe that it's a different- So if you want a commodity like if you look at it just from the numbers' perspective. If you're a surrogate five dollars an hour for their pregnancy that's basically you're going to be paying them 37,000 dollars to be paid five dollars an hour to use their body. Is it worth more than that? Is it worth less than that? You know I think it because it literally is priceless and I say this, you know, when I had my epidural in the hospital I said 'you could give me a million dollars it would not be enough for this' you know. By putting a monetary amount on it, for me at least, it does minimise the true nature behind offering that opportunity to a childless family. Yes you know it would be great to have have this money to do other things with, but I think when you're looking at the expenses - and I do agree that yes it should by all means be decriminalised. I don't think that prospective parents should should be terrified of being fined or being charged for having a family. So I do think that there is a happy ground and I do believe that if we can look at the way that we're legislating it, I think as long as it's legislated and people are being brought in to investigate the options I think you know it is a possibility. I just want people to be careful and cautious about it.

PC: Leigh where do you come in on this? Because along with the comments that we don't pay for other things. There is also the great concern that vulnerable women, women who are in lower socio-economic classes, might feel pressured or see it as a way to help their life situation, make some money by doing this. What do you say to that?

LEIA SWANBERG: So Francoise Baylis has been speaking for surrogates, egg donors and intended parents having admitted in previous interviews that she's never spoken to intended parents, surrogates and egg donors. So I find it quite offensive that she continues to speak for us. And it's unfortunate that she's not on this program to debate this topic. She absolutely stands alone on her opinion and it's unfortunate. As the other women have stated that it's not about the money, it's about people feeling safe. I believe our industry, I believe that health care professionals along with counsellors, along with lawyers, along with surrogates, egg donors and intended parents really can work together - and are working together - to change the industry. We believe regulations need to be there to ensure that everyone is kept safe. You know women acting as surrogates and intended parents entering into legal agreements with counselling, with the advice of medical professionals- and so you know I myself, in hundreds of cases that we've worked on, haven't seen women taking advantage of or intended parents taking advantage. We see a system that works although we strongly believe that you know having this you know criminal code attached to your women's reproductive rights issue is completely out of line. Ten years in jail for purchasing a gift for a surrogate or up to a 500,000 dollar fine is just not in line with Canadian values at all.

STEPHANIE PLANTE: Okay we will have to leave it there. Thank you to all three of you for joining our discussion. I really appreciate it.

HEATHER JOPLING: Thank you.

LEIA SWANBERG: Thank you very much.

PC: Heather Jopling is a surrogate mom from Cobourg Ontario. Stephanie Plante was a surrogate for a same sex couple in Spain. She was in our Ottawa studio where the phone was ringing, apologies for that, and Leia Swanberg has been both an egg donor and a surrogate mother. She also runs a fertility consulting agency. She was in Qualicum Beach B.C. Now if you have anything that you want to add to our discussion about surrogacy and whether or not Canadian women should be paid for it, please do so. You can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. You can find us on Facebook.com/CBCthecurrent or you can e-mail us by going to our Web site cbc.ca/thecurrent and once there click the Contact link. Coming up in our next half hour we're going to talk about you I guess and some of the letters on the segment we brought you you earlier this week about the changing attitudes towards death. That's all coming up. I am Piya Chattopadhyay. You're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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ENCORE | 'I want to understand': Ottawa police sergeant openly apologizes for racist comments

PC: I'm Piya Chattopadhyay and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current. Coming up in just a bit our documentary about the unexpected ripple effect that happened after a prominent Inuit artist's death. But first I want to take a moment to share some of the memories and stories you told us after our show on death doulas and how funeral homes are changing the way we grieve. We heard from Sarah Kerr who was with her father Bill when he died last April at a Nelson B.C. nursing home. For three days following his death, she and her family remained with him. They bathed him, built a casket and told stories about Bill with his body still in the room. Here's how she describes those final days.

SOUNDCLIP

So we washed his body. I know I spent a long time rubbing lotion into his arms his legs and really just tending to him, almost like a newborn, laid him down in his bed, made him as comfortable as we could I guess. And then I spent the rest of the night sleeping beside him, pulled up a chair. And it was an incredible and incredible evening. Everyone said well I'd wake up and look over and there he'd be.

PC: Sarah Kerr now works in Calgary as a death doula helping people navigate the dying process both before and after a person's last breath. We also heard from Caitlin Doughty a mortician and funeral home owner in L.A. who travelled the world looking at the way different cultures deal with their dead. She did it for her book. It's called From Here To Eternity: Travelling the World to Find the Good Death and that prompted some of you to write to us with some of your own stories. Pat Hof Saguenay Quebec shared his memory of his mother's passing. "In 2012. When my mom was but hours away from death I was ambivalent about bringing my kids to see her because my mom was not looking her best, being on her last lucid hours and I did not want my kid to remember her that way. I was just in limbo about it all. Then I saw the oncologist and told her about my dilemma. Her answer was one of the most sensible things I have ever heard she said 'our society is always so intent on keeping death at bay that when it actually comes we don't know what to do with it. Bring your kids in'. And I did. And tears swell up this point when I tell this story I will always remember my 2 year old having her last moments with my mom. Beautiful moments completely oblivious of the situation or my mom's look and my mom pointing to her heart and saying with the whisper of a voice she had left 'Je suis pleine d'amoure' I'm so full of love. And the next morning she passed away. And to this day I thank God for meeting that oncologist in the hallway." Alex King of Sharon Ontario shared this memory: "I remember growing up in Scotland in the 1950s when it was considered an affront to the family if the deceased was housed in a funeral home awaiting burial. Instead the undertaker brought the coffin to the house and washed and dressed the deceased at home. The body lay in the coffin at home where family and friends could visit to pay last respects over a period of at least two days. This is all changed now of course Scotland having accepted the North American practice of funeral directing." Well if you missed that conversation you can find it on our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. And we do want to hear from you. You can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC or e-mail us by going to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent.

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PC: I am Piya Chattopadhyay and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current. In September of 2016 the body of renowned Inuk artist Annie Pootoogook who was discovered in downtown Ottawa on the banks of the Rideau River. She'd been living at a nearby shelter and struggling with addiction. Ms. Pootoogook Who was born into a family of artists in Cape Dorset Nunavut more than 2000 kilometres north of Ottawa. Her ink, charcoal and crayon drawings were critically acclaimed portraying everything from mundane scenes of life in the north to raw arresting images about domestic abuse.

SOUNDCLIP

Our life is going up and down up and down. Happy, not happy, happy, not happy. That's why I drew like that.Sometimes I just drew about my life. I am not even shy about that drawing I did because it was me, it was my life.

PC: Annie Pootoogook's death shook her family, the art world and Inuit communities across our country. But it also profoundly changed the lives of two men in Canada's capital region. One who made a racist remark online about her death and the other who exposed that comment for very personal reasons. The Current's Kristin Nelson's documentary, I want to Understand, tells us their stories. It first aired last year and this week it was named a 2017 Canadian Association of Journalists Awards finalist.

SOUNDCLIP

NEWS CASTER: Ottawa police have identified the body discovered earlier this week in the Rideau River.

KRISTIN NELSON: It was late on a Friday afternoon last September that Gatineau resident Veldon Coburn learned that celebrated Inuk artist Annie Pootoogook was dead.

NEWSCASTER: The public’s help in retracing her steps.

KRISTIN NELSON: The story made local and national headlines.

NEWSCASTER: International recognition for her drawings.

KRISTIN NELSON: And the following day, Coburn was reading an article online about Pootoogook's death when he came across troubling remarks in the comments section.

NEWSCASTER: In one of those, the comment characterized Canada's Indigenous community as “just satisfied being alcohol or drug abusers." And in another comment it reads like this: "It's not a murder case.”

KRISTIN NELSON: Of course, controversial comments under online news stories are not uncommon, but Veldon Coburn says he was shocked when he figured out who wrote these ones.

VELDON COBURN: So I just clicked on the name and it took me to a sergeant of the Ottawa Police Service, his personal Facebook page.

KRISTIN NELSON: That Facebook page belonged to Staff Sergeant Chris Hrnchiar—a 30-year veteran of the Ottawa Police Service. In fact, he was the supervisor in charge of the forensic identification detective who processed the scene where Pootoogook's body was found.

VELDON COBURN: I took some screen captures and I sent an email to the mayor and Chief Bordeleau.

KRISTIN NELSON: He's referring to Ottawa Police Chief Charles Bordeleau.

VELDON COBURN: It's just simply unbecoming of an officer who wears a uniform to post such comments.

KRISTIN NELSON: The screen capture documented comments such as: "Much of the Aboriginal population in Canada is just satisfied being alcohol or drug abusers." He speculated publicly that Pootoogook's death was not suspicious, that it: "could be a suicide, accidental. She got drunk and fell in the river and drowned, who knows." He also wrote that: “This has nothing to do with missing or murdered Aboriginal women." But at the time, police were just acknowledging that elements of her death were in fact suspicious and did warrant further investigation.

VELDON COBURN: It's particularly problematic when an officer is commenting on an ongoing investigation and making derogatory comments and leading us to believe that it's not worth pursuing in the way that we would hope that the Ottawa Police Service has been, putting the full efforts behind, arriving at the truth of the untimely and sad circumstances of Annie Pootoogook's death.

KRISTIN NELSON: The story was personal for Veldon Coburn for many reasons. He's a member of the Algonquins of Pikwakanagan and father to four Indigenous kids. One of those children is the biological daughter of Annie Pootoogook—four-year-old Napachie. The Coburns adopted her in 2014. Annie wasn't in a position to care for a baby at the time. Without revealing his connection to Pootoogook, Coburn alerted the media about the author of the online comments.

NEWS CASTER: There is more reaction tonight to a police investigation into a complaint alleging that an Ottawa police officer posted racist comments.

KRISTIN NELSON: The two men found themselves together at the centre of a media story.

VOICE 1: Ottawa police officer was caught posting racist and degrading comments…

VOICE 2: Ottawa police are looking into a complaint that a police officer may have posted derogatory comments speculating…

VOICE 3: Racist comments about the death of Annie Pootoogook on social media.

KRISTIN NELSON: That was over six months ago. From the public's perspective, the story has been dormant. But out of the public eye, Chris Hrnchiar has been trying to make amends for what he said. He started showing up at Inuit events in town, meeting with elders, writing letters of apology. And then last week, Veldon Coburn and Chris Hrnchiar met each other face-to-face for the first time.

[Music]

[Sound: Restaurant ambiance]

KRISTIN NELSON: Veldon Coburn arrives at a restaurant in Gatineau, Quebec across the river from Ottawa.

VELDON COBURN: I have a reservation for Coburn.

KRISTIN NELSON: The restaurant is located inside the Museum of History. Coburn tells me he chose this venue in part because the museum is home to the imposing "Spirit of the Haida Gwaii" sculpture by Haida artist Bill Reid. It's a six-metre-long white plaster-cast canoe crammed with mythical creatures paddling along the river. He likes the symbolism of it—diverse characters working together to move forward. This is also the place where the inquiry into missing and murdered Indigenous women was launched.

KRISTIN NELSON: [To Coburn] How are you feeling?

VELDON COBURN: I'm at ease. I've had one or two exchanges with Chris over email in the past couple months. I'd imagine that Chris is probably a little bit maybe more on edge, but maybe not. I don't know. We'll find out.

KRISTIN NELSON: After Veldon Coburn complained about the sergeant's online comments, Chris Hrnchiar was charged with two counts of discreditable conduct under the Police Services Act. He pleaded guilty, was demoted for three months and ordered to undergo sensitivity training. But Hrnchiar has done much more than that.

VELDON COBURN: I'd seen the efforts of what Chris had been doing and I'd been hearing through the Inuit community, because my daughters are Inuit, and stories would get back to me and they would say, you know Chris Hrnchiar showed up at this event. Chris Hrnchiar was at a feast. Chris Hrnchiar, I saw him out with elders and whatnot. And I thought really? This is amazing. Because I thought he would just take a slap on his wrist, get his pay cut, go back to his job and nothing would become of it. But the exact opposite has occurred, so I guess that's why I'm here today.

KRISTIN NELSON: Coburn has his back to the entrance when Hrnchiar arrives. I end up being his look out.

VELDON COBURN: Two guys? One black guy?

KRISTIN NELSON: Hrnchiar enters the restaurant with the Dave Zackrias, head of the Ottawa Police's diversity and race relations unit. Hrnchiar looks like a cop in a movie from the eighties. He has short-cropped, greying hair and perfect posture. Veldon stands up to shake Chris Hrnchiar's hand.

VELDON COBURN: How you doing? You alright?

KRISTIN NELSON: But that quickly turns into an embrace. Hrnchiar buries his face into Veldon Coburn's shoulder.

CHRIS HRNCHIAR: [Muffled] Pleasure to meet you.

VELDON COBURN: I'm glad to meet you too. You okay?

CHRIS HRNCHIAR: Well, I got a little emotional this morning. But it was long overdue.

VELDON COBURN: I'm glad you're here.

CHRIS HRNCHIAR: Yeah, so am I. Absolutely. Nice to see you. Hi.

KRISTIN NELSON: As the two men sit down across from each other, emotions are running high.

CHRIS HRNCHIAR: Pardon me. I'm Slovak, so I wear my emotions on my sleeve there sometimes.

VELDON COBURN: Jeez, it's been six months eh?

CHRIS HRNCHIAR: My feeling was that I'm blessed to be able to see you to apologize to your face because I know how much it's hurt your community and the people you love. And I'm blessed to be able to get this opportunity to say I'm sorry to your face. And I've expressed that a lot and I've said I'm sorry to a lot of people. But with that, what I said, I realized that I didn't know as much as I should have known and I wasn't as sensitive to things as I should've. And I’m realizing more of that for a lot of the hurt that I was commenting inappropriately about—it's all our problems. And it’s actually shocking me a lot as to how much hurt there was and why some of the problems exist the way they do. And I was not as versed in that as I should have been. That causes me some shame as a Canadian and as a person. Sorry, I'm going to cry a lot. That's okay though. That's okay.

VELDON COBURN: I always thought about the myth of Sisyphus, of him with the boulder and constantly pushing it up the hill by himself. And I thought well, this isn't Chris' problem. And when Justice Murray Sinclair said this isn't an Indian problem, this is a Canadian problem. And I always thought let me stand next to him. This isn't for him to bear on his own.

KRISTIN NELSON: The tenderness between the two men is surprising, given the events that put their lives on a collision course.

CHRIS HRNCHIAR: I don't feel any animosity towards you and a lot of people would say well, that’s kind of unusual because someone who complained about you and stuff like that. But I never felt that because, as I said, if I did something wrong and it hurt somebody—and that was pointed out—why is that a bad thing?

VELDON COBURN: I said to others I can't fault him as a person because we used to read CBC comments on Indigenous articles. When I worked in Indigenous and northern affairs just around the corner from here, we used to sit in the office and when an Indigenous article would come up, we would read all the comments. And within an hour, there would be about 400 and we'd say, isn't this where the more high-minded and open-minded come to comment on stories? So it wasn't out of the norm, like this is a common sentiment. And if it had come from Bob the Accountant, I would have shrugged it off, but police officers, lawyers, judges, legislators, politicians—we place so much more trust in them so I think it was a conversation to have. So it's not a personal fault.

KRISTIN NELSON: In the five months since pleading guilty to discreditable conduct under the Police Services Act, Chris Hrnchiar took part in police diversity training course, attended a full-day forum about human biases and completed two days of training through the Department of Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

CHRIS HRNCHIAR: The government training we did was unbelievable. In a perfect world, I think every police officer should have that, really. I mean it was really shocking to realize the history that a lot of it I had no idea. Even reading Truth and Reconciliation and some of the residential school stories, I mean it brings you to tears. If that doesn't hit you, it's horrific.

VELDON COBURN: Most of Canada's only starting to recognize it in the last year or two.

KRISTIN NELSON: Chris Hrnchiar has also learned more about Annie Pootoogook.

CHRIS HRNCHIAR: I had no idea how accomplished she was. I had no idea. Amazing.

VELDON COBURN: Yeah.

CHRIS HRNCHIAR: And weren't both her parents acclaimed artists too?

VELDON COBURN: Napachie's grandmother was also Napachie Pootoogook. Her namesake is internationally renowned.

KRISTIN NELSON: The mention of his adopted daughter is a reminder of Veldon Coburn's personal connection to all of this—Napachie, the biological daughter of Annie Pootoogook.

VELDON COBURN: She never got the chance to meet Annie. Those are the things we took for granted. We knew that Annie was troubled. She was in no shape to care for a child. We didn't want to go visit her down at the shelter at the Shepherds of Good Hope because we didn't know if she'd be under the influence because she was still quite heavily abusing substances that we’d known of. So we took it for granted that 10 years from now, five years, we would just go down and see Annie. We would bring Napachie down.

KRISTIN NELSON: In spite of the hurt, Veldon Coburn has been moved by Hrnchiar's efforts to make amends.

VELDON COBURN: I didn't know that you weren't a cold person because I'd come from places—Thunder Bay, Regina—where police officers willingly say this and unapologetically. But after your apology, I was broken-hearted once again because I thought jeez, this is somebody who actually cares. There were other things too because the stories that circled back to me through the Inuit community and they said well, Chris has been here and Chris has seen the elders. And I think everyone in the Inuit community embraced you. I don't know if they’ve said that to you.

CHRIS HRNCHIAR: I've certainly felt—what's amazed me is I've felt a lot of forgiveness.

KRISTIN NELSON: To get a perspective from Ottawa's Inuit community, I went to the Ottawa Inuit Children's Centre—one of the places that Hrnchiar visited in the months since making the comments about Pootoogook. He told me when he went there, at least one person told them how angry some people were with him. And one parent decided to pull their kid out of class the day he was visiting. But others were more forgiving, including this woman.

REEPA EVIC-CARLETON: I'm Reepa Evic-Carleton. I'm originally from Penantang, Nunavut and I've been in the south for over 20 years.

KRISTIN NELSON: Miniature Inuit boot earrings made from ivory dangle from her ears as she recalls that meeting with Chris Hrnchiar.

REEPA EVIC-CARLETON: So I saw that Chris was reaching out. He really wanted to make it right. I saw that and I could tell that he was genuinely remorseful about what he had said about Annie Pootoogook. And that made it very easy for me to have this meeting and conversation around the whole thing. This man was very serious about wanting to make a difference and wanting to do it right. And he asked for forgiveness. So there's a lot of talk going on about reconciliation. To take it even to a higher level of reconciliation, forgiveness has to happen.

[Chatter]

VELDON COBURN: Did you guys want to order something? Did you guys eat?

KRISTIN NELSON: Back at the restaurant, the two men begin to relax in each other's presence.

CHRIS HRNCHIAR: It's amazing to get to meet Veldon. It's long overdue. And just to hug him. I felt your energy and I hope you felt mine too

VELDON COBURN: I took great notice of the character of how Chris went through it. And believe it or not, it's something I would point to my kids as a model. Yep, I would. And say like growing up, never run away from things. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and be the strongest person because far too often, you see people just put their head back down and they won't face the day. That's what I find so profound about Chris.

KRISTIN NELSON: [To Hrnchair] How does it feel to hear that?

CHRIS HRNCHIAR: Oh, I appreciate that. You know mistakes don’t eliminate everything you are. I mean you can still be lacking in something, have a bias of something. It didn’t negate everything I’ve done. I volunteer and I look after my parents and I’ve looked after my sisters. I support different things. I’m engaged in my community. I love my community. It means something to me. All that stuff doesn’t get eliminated, you hope, because of one mistake and you hope people see a positive in correcting that. So just go forward and hold your head up and make it a new day. Make the best of a new day. [Laughs].

KRISTIN NELSON: After the plates are cleared away, Chris Hrnchiar gives Veldon Coburn a gift.

CHRIS HRNCHIAR: Now it’s not formally wrapped there. I’m sorry.

KRISTIN NELSON: It’s a picture he’d taken last summer in Newfoundland of an albino caribou—sacred for Indigenous people.

VELDON COBURN: I’m not a fancy guy.

[Sound: Tearing tissue paper]

VELDON COBURN: Oh wow.

KRISTIN NELSON: The conversation turns to reconciliation.

CHRIS HRNCHIAR: It's not one person's burden. It's a lot of people collectively that I think have to. And I think recognizing a lot of things that happened in the past, injustices, that's a first step, but that has to go with action. And it has to go with action not just of legislators, but of citizens.

VELDON COBURN: And that's why I can be here today with you because I think the story should be of one police officer who has said that it's not okay. I'm going to mend the relationship and I'm going to try my best to make it better than it was before. There's so much behind us, can I help heal? Because I think Canadians are looking for somebody who can bridge the gap. And that's why I can be here today.

[Music]

PC: We have been listening to the documentary I Want to Understand. It was produced by the currents Kristin Nelson and Josh Bloch. And this week it was named a 2017 Canadian Association of Journalists awards finalists. All right. You can catch me I'm Piya Chattopadhyay in my regular gig hosting Out in the Open Sunday at noon here on CBC Radio 1. This weekend will be featuring people who found themselves in enabling situations and asking what motivates us to enable others. One of my guests will be Sandra Perron Canada's first female infantry officer. During her time in the military she says she experienced daily harassment at the hands of fellow soldiers and that many colleagues enabled it

SOUNDCLIP

SANDRA PERRON: The guys just did everything from stealing my birett, tying me to the [unintelligible] so that I couldn't dismount for an attack. They put eggs in my boots. They ripped off the patches on my uniform that associated me with the regiment. They didn't let me in in their circle. They wrote '[Beep] me' on my fragmentation vest. They would keep information from me so that I would show up late because I hadn't had the change in timings or I had the wrong equipment on or sometimes I had the wrong uniform because it been a change and they will tell me. It was just sabotage. It was daily micro aggressions to let me know that I was not welcome.

PC: And while these things were happening - these aren't in isolation. You're not by yourself it's happening in front of your colleagues and your superiors who I'm assuming and I think correctly that in the military vastly male - What were they doing as these quote unquote jokes were happening to you?

SANDRA PERRON: So my role in the infantry was very polarising in the sense that yes there were these guys who rejected me and didn't want anything to do with me. And then there were these other guys who were often called the peperoni lovers because of my last name Perron and they represented they championed everything that I represented and they made my life easier.

PC: And so, Sandra, there are people who are rooting for you, your people. And then I imagine like most workplaces there's this whole other group of people that kind of I don't know scout on the sidelines, don't say anything. Is that what happened?

SANDRA PERRON: Yes oh yes. Or worse yet they would just stand there but laugh at the jokes and they wouldn't themselves get their hands dirty but they would definitely participate in the sense they never came to my defense. They never intervened and they just stood there and laughed.

PC: The silent enabler.

SANDRA PERRON: Yes. Especially when you're the only woman in a battalion of close to 2000 men and some are just standing by and watching to see how you're going to react. And so that in and of itself is enabling that culture. First of all the men continue to do it and me trying to continue to fight to be part of the gang and to just shut up and put up and just do my best to survive it.

PC: That is Sandra Perron Canada's first female infantry officer. I'll be speaking with her on Sunday on Out in the Open 12:00 noon on CBC Radio 1 when we tackle the subject of enablers. By the way if you want the podcast you can get it a day early. It drops tomorrow. Speaking of podcasts The Current has one too. So if you want to find that you can go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. You can always of course email us from there by clicking on the Contact Us link and you can tweet The Current @TheCurrentCBC or go to Facebook - Facebook.com/CBCthecurrent. There are many ways to get in touch with us here at The Current. Please go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent to find out all of those ways. Well that is The Current for this Friday's stay tuned to Radio 1 for Q. Tom Power will welcome this year's winner of Canada Reads author Mark Sakamoto and Jeannie Beker who defended Mark's novel. His novel called Forgiveness and it won yesterday in this year's battle of the books. Remember you can always take The Current with you on the go on the CBC Radio app. It is free from the App Store or Google Play. It is of course Easter weekend and many people are also celebrating Passover. Some of us are just having a long weekend. Whatever you choose to mark, enjoy yourselves. I'm Piya Chattopadhyay. Thank you very much for lending us your ear here on the Friday edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

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Friday March 30, 2018 Full Episode Transcript

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