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The Current Transcript for March 9, 2018

Host: Duncan McCue

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Prologue

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A minority within a minority: Quebec's struggle to face racism

Guests: Haroun Bouazzi, Idil Issa, Lise Ravary

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Because sometimes my parents they say 'oh you're born here. That's how you think. That's normal that you don't think like us' and sometimes like it's the same thing with Quebeckers they say 'oh you're from that culture. It's normal and you think like us'. So, something I feel from both worlds. Sometimes I feel from one world versus the other. Sometimes I just feel like I just really don't belong anywhere. Here I want to turn the fault. It’s not really my fault. I really tried hard to integrate. But I'm not going to erase myself just so that you feel comfortable with me. And so, I am integrated. You just don't want me to be integrated the way I am.

DUNCAN MCCUE: That is one 19 year old from Quebec City on her sense of place, belonging and identity. Sana Labidi's parents are from Tunisia and she grew up in the Ste-Foy neighbourhood, the same place work more than a year ago a man walked into a Quebec City mosque and opened fire killing six people. Sanaa's father, Mohamed Labidi, is the president of that mosque. And as you heard she sometimes feels caught in between worlds. Her identity as a Moslem North African woman at odds with her Quebecois upbringing. She is not alone. We are at CBC Montreal today in front of a live audience for our third town hall on racial identity and racism in Canada. In our first half hour today we'll hear more about the tension that Sana Labidi feels. We'll explore the eclectic mix of identities here in Quebec and what that means for racial equality. We'll also look at how Quebec's status as a minority French culture in Canada shapes conversations around other minority identities in this province. Also today we're asking how racism and race contribute to the high rates of unemployment for some communities, asking what it'll take to create racial equity in the workplace. And in an hour we'll hear from a man who left his white supremacist past to become anti-radicalization advocate. Hello everyone. I am Duncan McCue and this is Facing Race, a special edition of The Current on CBC Radio One.

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DM: Please go ahead and tweet about the show with #CBCFacingRace and go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent to read more about the stories you'll hear today and see pictures of our guests. It may go by different names; distinct society, nation within a nation, special status but they all reflect the same idea and that is that Quebec has a unique culture and mapped against the rest of the Canadian landscape, it isn't the dominant one. But of course things are different inside the province where most Quebeckers would tell you that while they're a distinct society needs protection, it's still on. Well today it will get a kick off this town hall by talking about what that means for people who say they feel outside the dominant culture inside Quebec, more specifically for religious and ethnic minorities who feel shut out unwelcome or worse still targeted. And we'll talk about how that move forward when identities clash. Three people with me to weigh in on this. Haroun Bouazzi Is the president of the Association of Muslims and Arabs for a Secular Quebec. Lise Ravary is a columnist at Le Journal de Montreal are Idil Issa is a writer and board member of La Fondation Paroles de Femmes, a non-profit organization that offers women of color and indigenous women platforms to share their experiences. Hello to all of you. Haroun Bouazzi, let me start with you. How does Quebec's minority status in Canada shape conversations around race and religion in this province.

HAROUN BOUAZZI: It's actually a pretty complex question. I would maybe introduce the term intersectionality. We have people that obviously are in the intersection on more than an oppression. Black women, Muslim women for example they are subject to Negro in one side and sexism in the other. And they find their self, and Black feminism explain this pretty well, where are you actually if you say - if you're subject to sexism for example and you denounce it that denunciation would be used to actually say Black men is violent, and actually bring more power to all the racism your subject to. Now if we go back to Quebec, white francophones are both a majority that is privileged in Quebec, and a minority that historically has been rationalized based on their culture, on their religion and on their voice. I do think that the fact that they're extremely scared here if they denounce racism that it will be used by the rest of Canada to actually racialize us as Quebeckers saying 'obviously it's a culture that is racist' and it block us in this thing. And they actually call it Quebec bashing, right, which exists by the way but not the amount that has been described. There is a fear all the time about talking about racism because we're scared to be judged by the rest of Canada.

DM: Lise Ravary, Haroun is making the case that racism has a unique quality here in Quebec, and so I want to ask you the same question that I asked Haroun Bouazzi. How does Quebec, being a distinct society in Canada, shape the conversations around race and religion in this province?

LISE RAVARY: There's one thing that might explain or say sort of the reluctance of some Quebeckers is to be - shall we say - embracing of others because they themselves feel that their culture is in danger. And not to forget that the emancipation of Quebec where Quebeckers started taking control of their economy and their institutions, that's only some 60 years old. It's not a long time ago when the people of Quebec saw themselves as being oppressed. I'm not saying we should use that as saying well you know 'it's okay let's let it go because it's young'. But I think it does explain why this skittishness that you will not see may be elsewhere in Canada, you're going to see in Quebec as you know 'okay we've been oppressed. How do we deal with the fact that we may be oppressing other people is complicated for a lot of people'.

DM: This is a good point to bring Idil Issa into this conversation because you have a unique position. Lise Ravary is talking about other parts of Canada and the response that they've had to racism. You grew up in Winnipeg. You also lived in Toronto. Now Montreal is your home. So where do you see yourself fitting into this conversation?

IDIL ISSA: One thing I would like to point out is I would like to question the equation between Quebec bashing and systemic racism that people of color are experiencing in Montreal and Quebec. I think that for the intelligentsia in the English and French world you know this idea of Quebec bashing might have more weight in meaning. But I think if you are looking for it the average everyday person, there may be more of that concern of feeling like you know 'we are a minority' as opposed to worrying about Quebec actually or these sensibilities that you experience more at the level of the intelligentsia or the talking classes. So I think it's up to people who have a voice, activists or people concerned about this issue to really bracket this idea of the tit for tat going in between English Canada and really come to grips with and to face with the experiences of people within Quebec, because there is real suffering going on and it's not about Quebec bashing. It's about 'can I find a job?' It's about 'can I get into university?' It's about real issues.

DM: Lise Ravelry, when Idil Issa talks about her concerns about raising Quebec bashing as an excuse. What's your response?

LISE RAVARY: Well you know , this whole Quebec bashing, I think it's something that gets the media really excited but I'm not sure that the average Quebecker knows what's going on inside the pages of the national polls where a lot of disk bashing actually occurs. They want respect from the rest of Canada. We want respect the rest of Canada like the rest of Canada I am sure wants respect from us. But to me this whole Quebec bashing is a bit of a red herring.

DM: Haroun Bouazzi, if I could ask you, I mean on the one hand there is a reluctance to talk about racism in this province but the other big part of the conversation around diversity in Quebec is the notion of secularism. And I wonder can you explain what Secularism means to you?

HAROUN BOUAZZI: So first it's a very interesting word because it really doesn't mean what it means in French. So in French who used the more the word 'laicite'. 'Laicite' is actually a word that is tied to the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church is very specific. It's something that you have a hierarchy, it goes up up up to the Pope, The Pope cannot say anything wrong. So we had in all these in french in Quebec is to protect the state from this very powerful religious institution. This reality doesn't exist in the protestant world. It's actually the opposite even in the U.S. doesn't mean that it's not secular but the Constitution for example is there to actually protect the institutional religion from the big state which is the powerful piece of it. So now if we come back to the definition you have: One, it's protecting institutions - religious entities and from the state and the state institution from religion. And second, freedom - very important freedom of belief. And third is neutrality which means that your belief is not taken into account in your right to actually have something.

DM: In discussions about race in this province, secularism often comes up so you've explained the history of secularism. How has it being used in these conversations?

HAROUN BOUAZZI: Yes it's an excuse. I mean you have to find a way. Modern racism is not about just your skin or your family name. It works the same. So you take a group, you take one quality of the group either you're a Muslim or you're black or you're indigenous and then you put a culture on top of it which is by definition inferior or dangerous. And then you have to find all those things to actually make it look good and secularism is actually used for that. We can actually have all of this theory so that yes we're for secularism. But at the end of the theory if we have some people that say okay my conclusion is a women that works, who has the right diploma, that speaks French, that is a professor actually we want to throw her out of her job. Now for us this is obviously not secularism is actually racism. It's by definition it creates two levels of citizens where you have citizens that are inferior that they're not equal to others. And secularism sadly, for Muslims, for Jews, for Sikhs is actually used to racialize them and to make them inferior.

LISE RAVARY: The problem is where for some people it means if you're wearing a kipa or a hijab you know keep this at home, religion is for the home. That's one thing that is totally misunderstood by people. The word Laicite or secularism seems to mean something for every different person you meet.

DM: Critics of the point of view of secularism or that notion of secularism often say that it's being used in 2018, only applied to Islam and there's a double standard going on there in the province with regard to secularism because I mean you look at the crucifix that's hanging in the national [unintelligible].

LISE RAVARY: And it shouldn't. I mean to me I can never believe that anyone including our premiere would stand for this. In a room where laws are made in Quebec there should be a single- especially the crucifix was put up there to please Maurice Duplessis and to tie how is government to also the Catholic Church. So it was put up there to do exactly what we're trying to undo today. So anyway it's one of the weird things about living in Quebec [laughter]. But yes sometimes some people use that as an excuse I think because a lot of them do not understand and because of the religious suppression again to go back to that idea. They say we got rid of religion and people come here and they want to impose religion on us. You know it's very complicated.

DM: Idil Issa wants to jump in here.

IDIL ISSA: I would like to jump in here as a Muslim woman who does cover her hair, since we're talking about me. So I would like to just point out that you know the idea of using secularism to actually mask racism. So if the charter values it was unsuccessful. It didn't go through. But then Bill 62 came along. And so now we're restricting women who cover their faces from public spaces. So it's not about necessarily imposing your religion on other people but it's about using public services for these women. And so how is it that in our society we tolerate you know restricting the rights of these women on the basis of their appearance and then say that this is all but secularism you know. I think we realise what's really going on is that this group is marginalized enough that we feel that able to push this through. And nobody is going to be able to do anything about it.

LISE RAVARY: I think something has to be said about Bill 62. I personally think it was an electoral ploy more than anything else because there is probably not even 100 women in Quebec who wear niqab, but it was easy to pick on them. But at the same time the bill 62 doesn't say you can't wear your niqab in a public place. It says that if you are getting a service from the state you have to show your face. That what it says.

DM: So we will bring into the conversation but Bill 62 and I want to bring another example that relates to this discussion. Quebec had plans to do a province wide consultation on systemic racism. There was push back from some including the opposition. So let's have a listen to how this all played out.

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VOICE 1: Quebec's immigration minister says consultations on racism and discrimination will go ahead as planned, next month. Both the party Quebecoise and the SAQ want the consultations cancelled.

VOICE 2: But the approach of Mr. Couillard to say that there's a system of racism in Quebec, I don't accept that. Mr. Couillard is trying indirectly to treat Mr. Lisee and myself of racists.

VOICE 3: This commission is not useful, is not necessary, it's going to cost one million. So this million could be used otherwise

VOICE 4: There will be no inquiry in the systemic racism in Quebec. Instead the Queensland government now says it will hold hearings into the value of diversity and the battle against discrimination.

DM: So those hearings on the value of diversity and the fight against discrimination didn't happen either. In the end immigration minister David Heurtel announced and set a one day forum on jobs and diversity. So, Haroun Bouazzi, what do you think happened there?

HAROUN BOUAZZI: So first I have to say I was with Emily and Will that are here one of the first [unintelligible] that in May 2016, if I am mistaken, asked for this systemic racism thing. Now we weren't able to actually make it for at least three reasons. One is that the opposition is actually playing the populism the same way they've seen Trump raising and they've seen the Lupin raising in France and they've seen all this anger in the society for the poor people. Instead of making us all together, work together, White poor, Black poor and Muslim poor to actually understand how we actually can- they make sure that actually poor can actually be one against the other. That's number one. Number two is lack of will from our government. Mr. Couillard, who actually thinks probably that he doesn't need to do anything to actually keep the votes of minorities. I mean let's actually face it. If he thinks he will win or lose based on that he would actually have done it. But he did it. Just one final thing I have to say at the end of it, the civil society was there and today we have a table where people are talking about systemic racism where there is unions [unintelligible] there is Blacks and Muslims and Indigenous and LGBT and feminists and there is more than 50 organization and where are they actually the politicians say that talking about racism divide, The civil society showing that it is actually unite because fighting inequality should unite.

DM: Which is a really good jumping off point for me to ask my last question because if we want to bridge these divides, I am going to ask each one of you for a solution on the way forward. Let me start with you, Lise Ravary.

LISE RAVARY: I am just going to say this. This would have been so easy to fix and we missed it completely. The problem was not that people didn't want to talk about racism. The problem was a word 'systemic' that most people did not understand, interpreted it in a way that they thought they felt it was aimed at them, that Quebec was going to be on trial. If the government had announced a commission on racism, I am 99 percent certain that it would have gone well.

DM: That's a high rate.

LISE RAVARY: No I really mean it. Quebeckers don't have any issue talking about racism. The whole systematic, all these words that come from American universities. You know that we're supposed to understand what they mean. Well we don't understand. Most people don't understand what these words mean. So what are they do? They walk away.

HAROUN BOUAZZI: It's called systemic and systematic.

LISE RAVARY: But people don't make the difference, that is the problem.

DUNCAN MCCUE: I will jump in and just say we did reach out to the provincial immigration minister as well as leaders of the Party Quebecois and Coalition Avenir Quebec and invited them to this conversation today to perhaps help some of the understanding. None of them responded to our invitation. So I'll go back to Idil Issa and ask you that question. If we are going to move forward, if we are going to bridge the divide what would be a solution that you'd suggest?

IDIL ISSA: My number one solution would be political leadership. I think when you're dealing with minorities, when the conversation isn't at the stage where you can have a populist impetus for a change, you need to have political leadership; people who are willing to do the right thing and this idea that somehow systemic racism is some sort of strange concept. As I said before it's not true. It's up to political leaders to remind people that we know what systemic discrimination is. That's what we based our national project on.

DM: Haroun Bouazzi, you've talked about the importance of minority groups and visible minority groups working together. Last word to you. What's a solution for bridging this gap?

HAROUN BOUAZZI: I think what has to be done now is to make poor people that are born [unintelligible] from parents [unintelligible] and poor people from Montreal or from parents from Haiti not see each other as a threat. And we have to make this plan as a society where we actually understand that will build something together tomorrow because no but will disappear from Quebec. We're here for a long time.

DM: Thank you all for sharing your opinions. Merci beaucoup.

[Applause]

DM: Haroun Bouazzi is the co-president of the Association of Muslims and Arabs for a Secular Quebec. Idil is a board member of La Fondation Paroles De Femmes and a writer based in Montreal and Lise Ravary is a columnist at Le Journal de Montreal. Coming up we're going to take questions and comments from our audience here at CBC Montreal. But first of all talk about racial equity in employment. What it's going to take to close the unemployment gap for some Quebeckers and whose responsibility it is. I am Duncan McCue and this is Facing Race, a special edition of The Current on CBC Radio One.

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'Had we known you were Muslim, not sure we would have hired you': Workers face discrimination in Quebec

Guests: Dania Suleman, Adelle Blackett, Philippe-Andre Tessier

DUNCAN MCCUE: Hi I am Duncan McCue and this is Facing Race a special edition of The Current.

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DM: This is the third forum in our special series called Facing Race in Halifax, Vancouver and now here at CBC Montreal. We've been talking about the most pressing issues on race and identity in Canada. Today, we're talking about racial equity in Quebec. If you’re tweeting about this event please use the hashtag CBCFacingrace. Still to come we'll hear from a former neo-Nazi who went from radical views to deep radicalization work. But first when it comes to employment in Canada including Quebec, Race Matters.

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We know from reading research that we just conducted in Corporate Canada that over 40 per cent of people of color and over 60 percent of indigenous peoples feel that leadership presence is measured by conforming to a white male normative. This means that people of color and indigenous people feel like they have to conform and become like white man in order to advance. And so despite there being a vocalized commitment to creating more inclusive cultures in Corporate Canada the lived experience is that a white male normative continues to permeate and dominate systems of advancement. And until those systems are dismantled people of color and indigenous people will continue to lag behind. In other words there there's a lot of talk in this space but very little actual systemic and individual change that will result in helping people to get ahead who are from underrepresented communities.

DM: That's diversity in leadership expert Ritu Bhasin talking about barriers to professional advancement for indigenous peoples and people of color in Canada. For many people from racialized communities simply getting in the door is a major problem and a major hurdle when it comes to employment. This is an issue that cuts right across the country and here in Quebec the unemployment rate for Black, Arab, Iranian and Afghani Quebeckers is more than double the unemployment rate for those who do not identify as visible minorities. I've got three people here with me to talk about how could that I should tackle racial disparities in employment. Adelle Blackett is a law professor and Canada Research Chair and trans national labor law and development at McGill University Faculty of Law. Philippe-Andre Tessier is the vice president of Quebec's Human Rights Commission. And Dania Suleman is Montreal based lawyer. Hello to all of you. Dania Suleman let me start with you. I have the numbers right here in front of me. This is from Statistics Canada. In 2016 that unemployment rate for Canadian born Black Quebeckers was 13.4 Percent for Arab Quebeckers, also born in Canada; the unemployment rate was 14.5 percent. It is even higher for Afghani and Iranian backers. For those who don't identify as visible minorities the unemployment rate was 6.6 Percent. Do those numbers surprise you?

DANIA SULEMAN: No they don't. Absolutely not. And I think being raised here as a visible minority, we grew up with a sense of parents always pushed us to you know double their efforts in terms of having a really interesting resumé because just having the grades is not enough. You have to come with extra curricular activities because you know you do know they you come with a different name. Obviously a different look. You identify to another culture. So you need to take double the effort. I think my story or anyone else's story is definitely not like an anecdote. It's like widespread within like second generation immigrants that we need to work really hard to get that job.

DM: As a racialized Muslim woman, what's been your experience in the workplace?

DANIA SULEMAN: Personally I think I lived in more than once but I think I was doing my articling when I was about to become a lawyer. I was a clerk at the court of Quebec and those a really pivotal moment, especially for a young lawyer, because you're in a very steep learning curve. I did articling it was in May and Ramadan was around July at that time. And I was fasting but did not want to mention it and I think that's the reality of a lot of Muslim workers. You don't want to mention it because it'll become a door for people to feel like 'that's why you were not good at the job' and you're like 'well not really like you hadn't noticed that 10 days ago and I've been fasting for 10 days'. So I didn't mention it but it was really hard because we were a very small group and we would have lunch together all the time. They eventually learned it and one of my supervisors, not my immediate boss but definitely one of my supervisors who are permanent there, she told me 'had we known you were Muslim, not sure we would have hired you'. Yeas. When they did hire me, initially, hey told me that I was their [unintelligible] like out of every candidate that they had I was their number one. But as soon as they learn my Muslim identity, it was a game changer for them. So that was one of my experiences. So it's one thing it's already hard getting the job but then once you're in that job there is a lot of- sometimes you have to do a lot of white passing. So even like and I think a lot of women of color can identify with that. So whether you wear the hijab that is already one thing. Then if you have curly hair, like so many of us would like straighten our hair, like try to do a lot of white passing to kind of like ease into the workplace culture.

DM: I to pick up on something that you mentioned Dania. You talked about resumes and names. Adelle Blackett if I could bring you into the conversation there was a study done on resumes and people's names. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

ADELLE BLACKETT: Sure. So this was a study conducted by the Human Rights Commission actually here in Quebec. This study was basically a sampling of candidate C.Vs were sent out to employers and the C.V.s were essentially the same. What change was the name. So if your name was Richard vs. if your name was Rodriguez made a difference in terms of how one would be received. And it was really striking to have a contemporary study that basically confirmed that there was a difference on the basis of nothing more than the name and the very initial stage of the CV being sent out. So these folks did not even get through the door.

DM: Philippe-Andre Tessier the human rights commission conducted that research. Have you followed up on the findings since then?

PHILIPPE-ANDRE TESSIER: Well obviously one of the main rules of the commission is to make the values of the Quebec Charter of Human Rights known to the public. So naming things, saying things and I think your first panel was talking eloquently about it. It's important to name things and say things about the discrimination and the systemic nature of discrimination. So that's why these studies are important and Professor Blackett refers to. That's why it's important for the commissioner to push these kinds of studies ahead. So we have another one coming up very shortly. I can't disclose too many details because it's not public yet but I can tell you that it again talks about the advancement of visible minorities in the workplace. So it's a second step. We are not at the entry level. We're going to be at the progression in business, you know from being O-level jobs to the president of the company. So how the race impacts that. So because we have to follow through on these measures not only at the entrance but also in the actual business on the day to day operations of the business and how it is also sometimes discriminate amongst itself, its own employees, its own workforce.

DM: Adelle Blackett, we are in Quebec and I want to ask about one specific example that relates specifically to Quebec. Some people say that language skills are a factor when it comes to people from some communities not getting employed. How much of an issue are the unemployment numbers in Quebec for lack of French language skills?

ADELLE BLACKETT: Such an important question and it's a comment they get raised often and frankly it's a trope. The study that I outlined actually verifies that with people with the same C.V. But for the name there is a significant difference in the results. We also have policies in Quebec that for generations have been geared toward attracting immigrants from French speaking parts of the world, so [unintelligible] from Francophone Africa amongst others. And there has also been of course three decades of work to promote French within the schooling structure. So we've actually done a tremendous amount to minimize if not erase that as a significant issue and then we have the studies that say it's not the issue. So I think we have to move beyond that.

DM: So that let's talk about moving beyond it then. Philippe-Andre Tessier, the Quebec Human Rights Commission that has the authority to enforce diversity quarters in the public sector at least. Has that ever happened?

PHILIPPE-ANDRE TESSIER: Were enforcing these quotas through education measures. Now we have to understand that this is a carrot and stick approach. You can rely on the complaints, and I'm talking to you about these complaints that are continuously being processed and brought to the tribunal. But the other hand you also have to - and this is a part of the commission's also mandate to try to educate and bring businesses and public sector businesses but also private sector business as attention to these problems in the recruitment. So I'll give you examples. So in the last years we've dealt with the city of Sherbrooke which as decided at the managerial level. And again it talked about you need you know leadership from a higher authorities and political authorities that'll say 'this is an issue with us. We need a diverse workforce'. For example the city of Sherbrooke and will assist them in making sure that the you know neutral selection process and that has a very very important result that this city of Sherbrooke. The same is true for the Societe de Transport de Montreal. There's been tremendous increases there also because when business is management from these businesses, whether it's a public sector or private sector, they decide to put in place the commission will be there to accompany them and make sure that we have levels of representation in the business that is in line with the society around them.

DM: The commission's power to enforce this diversity quotas, you've talked about both public and private sector, do you think at the moment it applies to the public sector? do you think it should apply to the private sector?

PHILIPPE-ANDRE TESSIER: Well the commission has repeatedly mentioned to the government that it should increase the scope of the act. Right now it only applies to municipalities, school boards, universities and [unintelligible]. It should apply to private businesses too. So we are pushing that issue with the government. But obviously that's a recommendation were making to the government. We can implement that recommendation ourselves.

DM: Dania Suleman, what kind of example does the public sector in Quebec set for private sector when it comes to diverse hiring?

DANIA SULEMAN: Positive ones or negative ones ? Because there is both. I have a hard time answering that and not just they are still mentioning the Quebec Chart of Values obviously didn't become a bill but it was a potential bill of law. That's one of the examples where the public sector could have a very strong example of what inclusivity look like in having a very what positive discrimination might look like. But it was the total opposite and had it passed it would have been not only within the public sector but it would have been whenever the private sector is also dealing with the public sector. So it is setting and we know that one of the biggest employers right now is the public sector especially here in Quebec. So if the public sector cannot even like set a really strong example of what it is to hire based on race and obviously a good resume, then what if event in a private sector which goes unchecked way more in the public sectors.

DM: In December the Quebec government held a forum on immigration and jobs critics said the forum sidestepped the issue of racial discrimination in employment by focusing solely on immigration. One of the forum's most vocal critics is filmmaker and civil rights activist Will Prosper. And he's here today. Hello Will.

WILL PROSPER: Hey.

DM: Why do you think the focus on immigration amounted to sidestepping?

WILL PROSPER: Well because over here in Quebec you know we are scared to talk about racism. We are not scared to talk about race. Most of the time you know we talk about these issues in Canada we have two [unintelligible]. We have the French solitude and the Anglophone solitude but we are stuck in the third solitude. And that's what we end up facing. We're not part of the conversation and when we're talking about these issues of systemic racism, when we start that consultation that we wanted to push forward, well the government decided to manage and to make sure that they control the message and they've done so in adding consultation that was only about jobs and mainly talking about immigration. I am not an immigrant. I am second generation, third generation. There was nothing for me over there. Not only that they talk about 'they can learn French'. So I speak perfect French you know and I'm still having trouble having a job. But that being said you know most of the time when you talk about job you know it's just the end result of all the different problem which systemic racism. Because the fact of the matter is that when you take a look at education, most of people from racialized communities you know they don't get the same education that everybody else is getting you know. So if you're not getting the same education you are going to fall back. Then you go for this job. You drive to go to your job, you're facing racial profiling. This is not the same treatment. So of course we're not talking about that as well. Going for housing, people that will go look for a place. You are not getting a place and stuff like that. And the person that will do the interview at the end you know is not seeing you in the media because when they see you in the media, they see you in the news, they see you in a fashion that you're portrayed as somebody being negative not. So most of the time we're not talking about the real stories. You know we're talking about jobs but we need to talk about everything else before the job. And this is what we call systemic racism.

DM: You mentioned some of the examples that people in the community are facing when it comes to trying to get a job getting into the job market and you say you want to continue the conversation and specifically talk about systemic racism. So if your community is going to move forward and talk about systemic racism, how do you plan to engage employers in that conversation?

WILL PROSPER: Well right now what we're doing with the consultation is that we're trying to bring different organization, unions and engage them in this conversation. Because you have unions that work with teachers and if we have these teachers you know we have a lot of work for that. We understand these issues. And same thing if you have the union that work with public sector, you get engaged is the issue. So that's what we're trying to bring in place to have this conversation that we are not having and we're not shying away from. So I think it's also very important to mention that, to talk about race over the government. Any political party on the provincial level they are scared to talk about that. They're more sensitive about white people's feeling than they are sensitive of the consequences that we face from racism for how a million people who are living in Quebec and that's what matters.

[Applause]

WILL PROSPER: And it's important also to change the narrative because most of them you know you're going to have white politicians talking about it because there's not too many racialized politicians. So we need to control the narrative so we can talk about racism the way that we face it and make understand that we are suffering from it, and make sure that we bring the right solution and that we exist and that we matter over in Quebec. So we don't want to be invisible. We want to show was a problem and we want to be part of the solution as well because right now what we are seeing with the government is that they're not part of the solution and they've never been part of the solution.

DM: Will Prosper thank you. Merci beaucoup.

[Applause]

DM: Will Prosper is a filmmaker and a civil rights activist. Philippe-Andre Tessier, just made the point that government perhaps is more concerned about hurting wide white people's feelings. What did you think? Were you satisfied with what ended up happening at the forum in December?

PHILIPPE-ANDRE TESSIER: Obviously the commissioner's role in consultation is well documented and very public and the government made decisions and obviously I'm not here representing the government, as the commission is independent from the government. So what I can tell you is that the government made a decision and the commission has made its own decision to continue its actions regarding systemic racism, pushing these issues, participating in collaborating with the groups. Will was mentioning there was a very recent forum for the diversity in the artistic sector where the representation also of ethnic invisible minorities in the cultural sector is also part of the situation. There is employment issue there because people are actually working in the Union des Artistes, so it's their livelihood and their cultural sector and they feel that they are not represented on the screen, in the radio, on television as much as they should be. So there is these consultations and the commission is participating with these groups and collaborating with these groups on these issues.

DM: So the commission's involved with those groups. With regard to the commission itself, does the commission have diversity in its own leadership?

PHILIPPE-ANDRE TESSIER: Well obviously the membership of the commissioners is very diverse. If you look at the 13 board members that comprise the commission, there is a lot of diversity. So yes. And anybody can go on a website and you'll see that for yourself.

PHILIPPE-ANDRE TESSIER: Adelle Blackett, you're shaking your head. How come?

[Laughter]

ADELLE BLACKETT: So yes. You know. Where to start. I was a commissioner from 2009 to 2016 and so I was part of that 13 member panel. A 13 member panel that from most of the time had only one other racialized person and I was the only Anglophone. There have been occasional movements. There is a new person, but you know were stuck in a vision that- the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Junior said in one of his last works 'We are stuck in the aesthetics of equity'. We're not really getting equity. We think if we have one or two people powdered around in organizations that we've done diversity but diversity is substantive. It's about having real critical mass in the institutions that matter, so we can arrive at change. The commission, I am sorry, I think the commission has remarkable powers and could do a tremendous amount but it is not representative of the communities it serves.

[Applause]

DM: You all talk about the need for there to be more diverse workplaces in Quebec. I want to ask you each. How optimistic are you about the possibility of a culture change. Adelle Blackett, I will start with you.

ADELLE BLACKETT: So much needs to be done, needs to be taken seriously. We need to move away from a discourse that treats racialization as minority status. Hey. Quebec, Canada are changing fast. In some locations we are talking majorities, especially in our cities. Why are we looking at such significant under representation in the major institutions of our society, in our workplaces. Workplaces are the place where people get to know each other. They cease to be abstractions. They're co-workers. They're people they build solidarity with. This is not rocket science it's not hard. And so what I would say is we need to be looking beyond where we are now in incremental changes. We need to be trying inspiration also from other jurisdictions that at least have the humility to say 'you know what we need an anti-racism directorate'. We need to think about our institutions and maybe we should move beyond a complete screening that might take seven years at the commission to something that is more direct. We need to do this in active collaboration with communities, not instead of communities, not experts stepping in and saying 'here's where we go'; with communities. Communities know where we should be going. So I am only optimistic to the extent that I see vibrant, active communities willing to say we need to move.

DM: Phillip-Andre Tessier will the culture change come about? How optimistic are you?

PHILIPPE-ANDRE TESSIER: Well Charter of Human Rights in Quebec was enacted a bit over 40 years ago. For the 40th anniversary of the charter there was this major study undergone. One of the key findings of that study was the fact that young people have a much much much higher tolerance towards diversity than the older you get. So if you are looking at what young people say when they're asked about diversity, their answers- you're looking at these answers and you're saying 'well yes I have to be optimistic because I see the young folks and their answers offer a promising future for all of us'.

DM: Dania Suleman. Last word to you.

DANIA SULEMAN: Yes. If I can beg as that comes to terms in a very categoric and real way about is racism towards minorities because it keeps denying it by saying 'how can we be racist? We're living racism from Canada.' You're not answering the question we're talking about current Quebec itself and not right now Quebec within Canada which obviously is another important conversation. But if Quebec now come to terms with its profound racist behaviour, whether from the political spectrum and even more so within the workplace, then my enthusiasm is mitigated. So you know I'm enthusiastic for the years to come and the new generations but I think we need to keep having these conversations that we've had tonight.

DM: Well I really appreciate this honest conversation and the analysis you've all brought. Thank you so much.

[Applause]

DM: Adelle Blackett is a law professor and Canada Research chair and transnational labor law and development at McGill University Faculty of Law. Philippe-Andre Tessier is the vice president of Quebec's Human Rights Commission and Daniaa Suleman is a Montreal based lawyer. Coming up we'll hear how efforts to repair a broken relationship between police and indigenous peoples in this province are working. And we will be hearing from you, our audience both in studio and on Facebook. If you have thoughts on what we're talking about today, tweet them using the hashtag CBCFacingRace. Go to our Web sitecbc.ca/thecurrent to read more about the stories and guests we're hearing from today. I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to Facing Race, a special edition of The Current on CBC Radio One.

[Music: Theme]

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Meet the former neo-Nazi who now helps young people turn away from hatred

Guest: Maxime Fiset

DM: I'm Duncan McCue and this is Facing Race. A special edition of The Current. In this half hour we want to hear from you our audience here and through Facebook Live. But before we get there we'll talk about an issue that's been on the minds of many in Quebec and across the country.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Protesters chanting]

DM: Those are the sounds of protest last summer in Quebec City when a demonstration by far right groups was met with counter protesters. There are numerous right wing extremist groups within Canada and according to Barbara Perry, a University of Ontario Institute of Technology professor who studies hate crimes, there are 20 to 25 of these groups operating in the province of Quebec alone. Her research also says that the neo-Nazi movement is thriving in this province. My next guest was once part of that movement. Maxime Fiset became a skinhead when he was about 18 and co-founded a right wing extremist group called La Federation des Quebecois de Souche in 2007 that roughly translates to the Federation of old stock Quebeckers. Maxime is now a consultant for Montreal's Center for the Prevention of Radicalization Leading to Violence. Hello Maxime.

MAXIME FISET: Hello

DM: What was The Federal des Quebecois de Souche?

MAXIME FISET: Well you know at first it began with a web board as today many groups begin on the Internet. But back then it would essentially be become the main white nationalist group in the province. The main because there was a void back then for such groups. I felt there was some kind of demand for something that could unite all the supremacist or ultra nationalist groups in the province. But obviously the official reason was to create some kind of lobby to defend the interests of the old stock Quebeckers, Les Quebecois de Souche. But that wasn't the real reason although it was a reason but that was kind of fake you know.

DM: It was just over 10 years ago that you started that group. Why did you want to start it?

MAXIME FISET: Well I was pretty dumb to begin with. Maybe that wasn't such a bright idea. I wanted to get involved in some kind of prosocial way. I really thought that creating such a space for conversation could have been a good idea but obviously it quickly filled up with very hateful people and so it didn't turn out to be such a good idea at all. But I felt that you know - I insist on the word 'our'- identity was attacked by external forces in shadowy agents. You know this conspiracy theory of the well thinking elites. Well it really felt like it was something that I had to defend my people from.

DM: You said you were dumb at the time, but going back into your head at that time or what made you upset about the weakening of Quebec culture?

MAXIME FISET: Well I felt it was weakening although I really did not understand Quebec culture and I can think I can say that today I still don't actually understand it as well as I should. But you remember the words of [unintelligible]. This kind of confirmed something that I really believed and that was that financial elites were against Quebec sovereignty and that immigrants were being imported en masse to prevent this from happening. And this is something that is still pretty trendy as an argument in some ultranationalist circles.

DM: Take me back into the head of that 18 year old 19 year old. What were you doing at the time? What did your room at home look like?

MAXIME FISET: What my room looked like [chuckles]. I had this big swastika flag on my bookshelf but obviously it just because I loved the history. Of course that's what my mum believed. Poor mom. Back then I was very nationalist. I'm not anymore but I used to be and I thought that's something that I thought when I was 16 in Secondary Five, I thought that some points of National Socialism could be good in Quebec sovereignty. Obviously it's the worst thing to say but I was pretty naive and you know I thought I knew it all. I told you I was dumb.

DM: What were some of the goals of the group and what kind of activities did you undertake?

MAXIME FISET: Well the activities were pretty scarce. At the beginning we were we were considered consolidating a base. We had about 200 members about 50 of them were active. The whole point to begin with was to unite the regions not necessarily a leadership but at least a common ground and then we could start acting as you know a unified front. Because this is something that most often lacks, in extremist circles, is at least the face of a unified front. And so by unifying these groups I thought that we could become much more powerful. And by creating you know a more politically correct discourse to teach other groups, I felt ten years ahead of my time that it could help the extreme right become more legitimate.

DM: Can you give me an example of some of the education that you're doing with regard to getting the message of the extreme right now?

MAXIME FISET: I don't even want to use these words anymore but you know the N word were still pretty widespread used by racists back then and it still is. But I can tell you much less because they know it doesn't sound right. And so we kind of had to teach all these guys who were still you know clinging to their KKK and signals or skinhead mythology to stop using such words and to stop using openly violent discourses. Although that we would observe these discourses for private places, in public we had to tone down our violent you know desires.

DM: You did do a good job of bringing members of that group together and continuing that discourse. I'm wondering what did it take for you. I can see the discomfort now when you're talking about it. What did it take for you to get out of that?

MAXIME FISET: Well I had to be arrested I suppose. That was a trigger although it did not take me out of the movement. It actually fueled my radicalization but it was a stepping stone in my story. What it took me was you know jobs to begin with. You know places I could feel I belong to, a way to fill my fridge because after I was arrested I was like very poor. I was dirt poor and I was-

DM: And you were arrested for?

MAXIME FISET: A speech and owning an illegal weapon because you know the extreme right is violent after all.

DM: Were there ever points that you or anyone in your group wanted to harm anybody?

MAXIME FISET: Well there's this kind of mythology going on in all the extreme right circles and at some point the white people would just snap in going to a full-fledged civil war and either kick out or kill everything that is not white or part of the national group. So this is pretty common grounds in far right circles. And so we felt we had always had to be ready. Obviously because we were the target of somewhat people called Antifa. We felt that we had to be prepared as well before for them to attack us.

DM: You are a very different man from who you were back then. Your job now is to prevent others from radicalization. How hard is that?

MAXIME FISET: Have you ever tried mining diamond with a pencil? Because you know it's just about as hard. But you know we're actually were doing a pretty good job but it's tough because every single case is individual and you know radicalization does not come in only four flavors, like there there's a flavor for each one of us. We all select the type of radicalization that fits into our narrative. But most of the time we do meet a huge success because all the support we give is voluntary. So we cannot force someone to accept our help. And since they do want it at some point it's because they can't accept that there's an issue even though they may not feel they are the cause. They want some help and we provide.

DM: You do step in and work with mostly young men who are joining these kinds of groups. What does a successful intervention look like?

DM: Well you know at the moment we're pretty sure they're not going to go in a violent path. I think we can say that we have some success. And when I say violence I also include hate speech. But the best case would be for such a person to renounce. What I call the sense centralization, you know seeing a group as a unified thing and giving each members of these groups the characteristics that we think belong to the group. So it's the base of racism. It's what's behind racism, prejudice, xenophobia and all that stuff. And the best case would be for someone to drop these ideas. Sometimes it happens. But sometimes it does not. And I think that the most important thing here is to remember that we cannot deradicalize them. We can only help them do it. And it begins with this engagement that we can assist.

DM: So that's the best case scenario. But then we have heard that there are up to two dozen far right groups operating in Quebec. There are groups like Le Mute who are not sticking to the shadows in this province. So what's driving that in this province?

MAXIME FISET: Disbelief, discontent and misunderstanding. At first let's agree on something. Nobody joins a far right group because they're happy. You know that's not only for a group far left or you know political religious groups as well. You don't join these groups because you're happy because radicalizing is kind of painful. You know it's not something that you say 'oh I'm going to radicalize you know I'm bored today'. It really is something that you do because you feel some unease about the world. So it takes that. It also requires the people not to be capable of making sense of everything that surrounds them because you know the world is a complicated place. You know like you have thousands of society just or political scientist who cannot even agree on a single topic so it's kind of hard for an average guy or gal to make sense of all of this.

DM: In terms of spreading the word and how these groups spread their messages. What do you think about the media coverage of these extremist groups?

MAXIME FISET: Well it was exaggerated. I mean we need to talk about it. Obviously when the media did not talk about it did not prevent them from existing. But there needs to be some you know some way to do it. First don't give them free exposure and let them say whatever they want on primetime radio. That's not going to help anybody because obviously they are going to lie. You know when you feel that they are lying to you it's probably because they are. Well don't give them the window to do it. But if you really want to know what they think and what they believe, what their ideology is well you can still invite him. But you know you can still counterbalance with somebody else afterwards like an expert or somebody who studies their discourses to explain what it means and why it's not always as it seems. Because these people they think they are being honest. Actually they are just misinformed and they are used by opportunistic power seeking persons as a tool to gain power.

DM: In a sentence, do you have a message for someone in this province who feels alienated and who may be trying to reach out to these groups?

MAXIME FISET: Well I really would like well call us at the center. But obviously when you are radicalizing you don't feel like asking for help. We're still here and we will be for a while. I would say if you feel it does not make sense, it doesn't mean that there's no sense. It might just mean that you're wrong you know when you feel that everybody is driving the wrong way. Maybe you are a problem and so the question you need to ask yourself is What if I were wrong? What if I was wrong? You know it doesn't mean that you are but if you're right asking yourself this question doesn't cost you anything right.

DM: Maxime Fiset, thank you.

MAXIME FISET: No problem.

[Applasue]

DM: Maxime Fiset is a former skinhead he's now a consultant for Montreal Center for the Prevention of Radicalization Leading to Violence.

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Indigenous people must hold society to account for how they're treated, says activist

Guest Nakuset

DM: I'm Duncan McCue and this is Facing Race a special edition of The Current. I want to turn now to another conversation that's happening in this province. There's been an ongoing inquiry into how indigenous peoples are being served by public services including police. One of the people who's been involved extensively in those talks and in advocating for indigenous peoples rights in the criminal justice system is Nakuset. She's the executive director of the Native Women's Shelter in Montreal. Nakuset is with us here today. Hello.

NAKUSET: Hi.

DM: You work at a Native Women's Shelter. What are you hearing from your clients from Indigenous people about their interactions with police?

NAKUSET: Nothing good. Nothing good. Sometimes at the Native Women's Shelter, if a child is being apprehended from youth protection they'll send over like five police officers to take the child with the social worker. I've heard from one of my staff that she was crossing the street with a group. She was the only Indigenous person in the group but yet the police officer pushed her across the street. And then she had to go and actually you know hold him accountable for his behaviour. I think indigenous people are over ticketed. We see it all the time. So if you're indigenous and homeless and you're in the metro, well if you sit down you get a ticket. If you're in a group of more than three you get a ticket.

DM: For what?

NAKUSET: For being in the metro because you're homeless and you should be doing something else. So they don't necessarily want you there. So no matter where we go we're not wanted. So lots of ticketing. And even here in Montreal the Mayor said that she was going to stop the ticketing because there is too much. Apparently the cops are getting like a bonus every time they ticketed. And I spoke to some police officer about this and he reassured me that it's not those kind of tickets. It's a different kind of ticket. 'We're still going to give you those kind of tickets. So it's misinformation'.

DM: You've done a lot in the past to mend relationships between police and indigenous peoples. What kind of things have you tried to do?

NAKUSET: In June 25th 2015, I signed a collaboration agreement with the Montreal police. So we were supposed to have all the police officers have cultural training and Procedure on Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women a common TVG [unintelligible] and sort of prevention plans. So I worked on three of those main things with them. The training did not go well. We spent almost two years trying to develop a training using you know Dr. Elizabeth Fast. I mean people that were indigenous and were so qualified and then we revamped it again and again and again. And at one point they said 'well we don't really like your manual anymore. Let's do something interactive'. So it's like a blanket exercise let's do it. But what if the police officers put the blankets on their head. They actually said that we're like well. You stop them. So we eventually did 120 police officers received some training and it was really such a struggle. We had to actually ask the police officers to stop laughing to take it seriously. I was an observer but I actually walked around during the blanket exercise just to tell them to be quiet, to just listen to the facilitator. Then the police cancelled it. Not with any consultation, not with any you know 'let's amend it'. They just flat out cancel it. And to this day they haven't received any cultural sensitivity training. And of course it impacts everywhere.

DM: And the blanket exercise that you're talking about actually explains the history of treaties and that kind of relationship between indigenous peoples. You sound very discouraged about the sensitivity training in particular. We did speak to Carlo Deangelis, The Aboriginal Liaison Officer for Montreal police.

NAKUSET: Italian. They put an Italian person as an Aboriginal Liaison Officer. I don't know as a nish how you feel about that but anyway go on. Go on.

[Laughter]

DM: He said the police force has held 80 sensitivity sessions with 1300 police officers about Indigenous history and the traumas communities have experienced. He also told us that the force plans to provide further training to officers through PR Picard an expert from the year on one nation. How satisfied are you with that response?

NAKUSET: I know that Vicky Baldo was one of those people they did some of those trainings but those were just going into the police officers for maybe a half hour and giving them some tools but it's not a training per se. What he's talking about was supposed to come to the table and he was supposed to discuss it with the Indigenous community about who was going to be used for these trainings. This is a conversation we never had. You're like the first person to tell me this. So again we're the last ones to hear this. You know I mean perhaps this guy is qualified and all that but can we see who else is available to do this. That would be nice.

DM: Last question for you, Nakuset. There is a commission travelling the province right now talking about the relation and the discrimination that indigenous peoples face with regard to public institutions in this province. You've testified at that commission. How optimistic are you that that commission will lead to some changes?

NAKUSET: Okay, well they're going to collect more information for about you know another year. What are they going to do with that information? Because it's about systemic racism against indigenous people. So if we go to the hospitals and were refused services, if they continue to take away our children in youth protection, if the police continue to ticket us they're going to take this information turn into a book and then what? Are they going to be like 'Oh stop taking children now'. Like is the whole institution going to read it and then abide by the recommendations or are they just going to put on a shelf and be like 'look what we did. We did a study. Isn't that nice. Keep going'. You know like everything is the status quo. So I think indigenous people need to hold society accountable to how we're being treated and that's what we do at the network.

DM: Miigwech, Nakuset.

[Applasue]

DM: Nakuset is the executive director of the Native Women's Shelter in Montreal.

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'We shouldn't be begging to exist': Audience members share their stories

DM: I'm Duncan McCue and this is Facing Race. A special edition of The Current.

[Applause and cheers]

DM: Now it's over to you, our audience both in studio and on Facebook Live. We have all our panellists back up here with me and our CBC colleagues are on the floor with microphones. Does anyone want to start?

LILLY: Hi I am Lily. First Generation [unintelligible] Quebecois. And I say Quebecois, though not everybody in this province will call me a Quebecois. Sorry I'm getting emotional. So Canadian.

[Laughter]

LILLY: But as tax paying citizens that funds all the media in Canada we are not being getting our money's worth. We shouldn't be begging to exist. We paid for it. It's all right. We are equal.. We are Quebeckers we are Canadians. Thank you.

[Applause]

REHAM: My name is Reham. So a few years ago I had the privilege of having a position as a faculty member at a university, a Montreal university and it was a part time faculty member. So one course a semester, it's like the first level in but one of my dreams, right. And the first thing a group of us were sitting and the first thing they said were 'oh you're the flavor of the month' and it crushed me that the one or two people that- there's one person that's gay though. One French person who was working in the English university, oh and the hijabi that's there now. And so it became a normal conversation that we're having. And I just I just I couldn't apply anymore I couldn't go back for at least a year and a half after that. So there's so much to do and when you're talking I just I wanted to share that with you with the back end of you know trying hard. Like Daniel was saying like trying so much. We're doubling our effort as first generation immigrants and then second generation immigrants. But then once we get there we get crushed. Thank you.

[Applause]

CHANISSE: Hey I'm Chanisse. One thing that I find kind of interesting is talking a lot about diversity but one things that we haven't really talked about is white supremacy. And then also how can we like shift away from this discussion about diversity which is actually diversifying from whiteness. So how can we shift from that to actually unpacking the root which is white supremacy. That is the cause of everything that we're experiencing and why we're here in this room.

[Applause]

DM: Anyone want to tackle that?

ADELLE BLACKETT: I will say this. There's been some absolutely crucial research that has recently come out on how we address the problem of diversifying whiteness rather than actually promoting equity. And some researchers have written about this in relation to racialization and indigeneity in Canadian universities which have, for decades, had policies on inclusion, on equity, on human rights. But where again. We're not seeing the kind of change that one would expect. And so part of the work by this courageous and important group of researchers has been to say we need to step back, talk seriously about what is not happening and rethink. And some of the attention to the growing status of racialized communities that moves away from the language of minorities and addresses the language of privilege has been crucial to this.

DM: A question in the front row.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: I don't have a question I have a comment. I think that first of all you've missed a great opportunity for a dialogue here tonight because you don't have any proponents of secularism, not one person to express the feelings about 'laicite' or secularism. Second there is an elephant in the room which is that we throw out the nuns from our schools and the priests from our schools and our schools became secular. But religion is rearing its ugly head again and we want to impose religion on a secular society again. And that we actually had demonstrations here in Montreal for the niqab. The niqab which is an insult to women. The niqab which in Iran they are trying to- the women are courageous and they are going out into the streets and risking their lives to get rid of their hijabs and here we are saying no it's fine. The niqab is fine. And the left which has always defended the rights of women to get rid of patriarchy and to get rid of the yoke of religion. And we're bringing that back in. And the left has betrayed its original principles and I could talk for half an hour but I'm sure other people…

DM: You've raised your thoughts and I want to throw that, does anybody on the panel want to tackle the comment.

IDIL ISSA: I always take a pause when I hear an opinion like that because I understand that my experience of the hijab or a religion is subjective. It's my experience and the experience of other women is their experience. Sometimes it's an experience which is oppressive. You know there's some countries where hijab is legislated for sure. But I think within a Canadian and Quebec context definitely there's no sort of laws which force people to wear a veil or a niqab. And I think for feminists I think it's very important to really stand on the ground that women should be able - to the extent that it's safe for all people within a liberal society - be able to dress the way they want to.

[Applause]

IDIL ISSA: No I don't believe in Sharia creep.

LISE RAVARY: All right. I'm going to say something that's going to upset some people. You know what. There may not be any laws in Canada forcing women to wear hijab but can I remind people in this room of a young woman called Aqsa Parvez. Ten years ago - she's not going to be here tonight she's not going to be here ever - because she didn't want to wear the hijab her father strangled her. So excuse me. It is not just a question of personal choice.

DM: Dania Suleman wanted to respond to the question.

DANIA SULEMAN: First of all I say this is a missed opportunity for dialogue. I completely disagree. This was a medium for us minorities to be here to talk about issues. The theme is your life, your stories, your identity, Facing Race. So this was not a platform for the majority of a white people. Let me finish. I'm not done.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: We are a minority who are fighting for secularism.

DANIA SULEMAN: Okay fair enough. There is a minority fighting for secularism and they decided to put the emphasis elsewhere. It doesn't mean if we're here talking about. And then other people here are pro-secularism. In any case you were talking about what's happening in Iran and Pakistan. No one here mentioned the realities of other countries. So you imparting a reality that we're not talking about, I don't think does justice to the conversation that we're trying to have. And you're talking about protest about pro-niqab. I've never seen a protest about pro-niqab. I've seen protests about the right to be able to wear the niqab in public space and that's fair enough. If anyone can wear Halloween costumes or whatever they want to wear, women are entitled to be able to wear the niqab period. It's not about being pro-niqab or against niqab. And also why is it that every single time we're having a conversation about politically what's happening in Quebec we have to talk about political Islam. This is not a debate about theology here. We're talking about how to create better opportunities for the workplace and how Quebec can deal with its very big issue of racism. And can we please stop talking about political Islam. Seriously.

[Applause]

DINA: Hi my name is Dina. I'm a writer. I was born and raised in Montreal. I recently found my great grandfather listed on the 1911 census from Nova Scotia. And I cannot count how many times I have been asked where I am from when I respond here. I'm asked again and when I say 'no, here.' I am asked again. The denial around the lives and contributions of black people in Canada and in Quebec in particular is astounding and it is devastating. We have a five year old daughter who is going to be starting school in September and I am petrified about the kinds of eraser that she's going to face when she gets there. And so just today I read a story from the Gazette about two parents that are obviously and rightfully upset that there was the word the N word in a grammar activity of their two 6th grade children and when confronted the teacher said it's not racist. It's complete and utter- It wasn't right then either. It wasn't right then either. That's within my lifetime, when I was 20 something, it wasn't right, before I was born it wasn't right. So I work for myself and have been here, the family is deeply rooted in Canada. Like Will Prosper said that the issues around immigration and work don't get to what the issue is for me. I'm concerned about what's going to happen to my daughter when she gets into school. I'm concerned about the eraser and the refusal to believe the stories of people that are telling what is happening currently in Canada. So my question is what if anything is happening in the education system in the training of teachers that are going to come and in the consequences that teachers should face when they do these kinds of things.

[Applaude]

LISE RAVARY: I would hope that we will have more teachers from different backgrounds and know from diversity as we call it as opposed to a complement of white teachers, which is mostly what most schools have especially in the French system. I think in the English system it's a little bit different. No it's not anyway. So yes, we need teachers, we need people to go train to become teachers to lead as example to all of us as to 'you know what we're not all the same'.

IDIL ISSA: I know there's initiatives in Toronto for example. I think it's called the Afrocentric school where they're literally getting together on a community level and putting together curricula that reflects their history and presence in Canada and that makes sure that that eraser is no longer perpetuated for their kids’ education. In terms of Quebec, I don't know in terms of specifically education but I can see that somebody does.

NAKUSET: You know you're all on Indian land and in the Quebec books history books there's nothing about indigenous people, nothing. There is 11 nations that make up Quebec. Can you name them? Anyone. There's some pages. Oh my goodness. So I think we need to start there it's kind of like the elephant in the room. Like this is Indian land. This is Indian lion time facing race. And it's our history. And you know everyone here is a settler and you need to be appreciative if you learnt about our struggles and how we welcome you here to Canada. So I think that would be awesome that we have to start first with the first peoples and then move on.

[Applause]

DM: Okay we're going to have to leave it there. I'd like to thank the people involved in putting this forum together because there were many of them. It was produced by Yamri Taddesse, Pacinthe Mattar who is also our director, Leanne Stepnow, Susan McKenzie, Nick McCabe Lokos , Cathy Simon, Lara O'Brien, Kathleen Goldhar. Our digital producer is Ruby Buiza. Our technical team and crew is: Pierre Courcy, Martin Boulanger, Valérie Marcoux, Andrée Lacourse, Marie Vaillancourt and Jean-Raymond Merveille. Our camera operators are: Scott MacBride and Daniel Michon. Our makeup artist is: André Mercier. Our photographer is Elise Jacob. A special thanks to Peter Tardif, Mike Finnerty, Debbie Hynes, Andrea Stanford, Nadia Greenidge and our communication teams in Montreal and Toronto. And most of all thanks to our listeners, the ones who are here in person, and all of you out there online. You can find photos from this event and more on our website, cbc.ca/thecurrent. Check out our Facebook for more information about our series. I'm Duncan McCue IN Montreal - merci beaucoup, chi-miigwech, thank you for being a part of Facing Race, a special edition of the Current.Check out our Facebook for more information about our series. I'm Duncan McCue in Montreal. Merci beaucoup. Chi-miigwech. Thank you for being part of Facing Race. A special edition of The Current.

[Music: theme]

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Friday March 9, 2018 Full Text Transcript

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