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The AIH Transcript for February 27, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

CO: Growth or growth misconduct. After a new budget heavy on promoting gender equality and boosting productivity, I'll speak with a Liberal who says it's money well spent. And a Conservative who is concerned it's money mismanaged.

JD: Post parting shot. For months, a Congolese asylum seeker has been detained thousands of kilometres from her daughter. Now, the ACLU is suing the American government, demanding they be reunited.

CO: Sent packing. Delta airlines no longer offers discount fares to members of the NRA. So some angry politicians in Georgia say the state should no longer offer the Atlanta-based airline a discount on its taxes.

JD: An exception to the cardinal rule. When an Alabama woman saw a northern cardinal in her backyard, you could have knocked her over with one of its feathers because they were yellow, not red.

CO: Slope opera. When it came to calling everything from big air to halfpipe in Pyongyang, Craig McMorris was the chairman of the snowboard. Tonight, he'll talk about his colourful commentary, and the colour of his brother's medal.

JD: And super high on expensive pot. Our guest explains why New York's Metropolitan Museum of Art paid a million bucks for a cracked, lidless old tea pot that looks more like an English dog's breakfast.

JD: As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio though thinks this thing is way past its pekoe.

[Music: Theme]

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Part one: Budget: Opposition, NRA boycott, Craig McMorris commentary

Budget Opposition

Guest: Lisa Raitt

JD: Bill Morneau is billing it as Canada's first feminist budget. The Finance Minister delivered the federal government's annual spending plan to the House of Commons this afternoon. It promises new money for things like parental leave, and measures to help more women find jobs that will continue to pay in an increasingly high-tech economy. But to pay for that, the Finance Minister is going to continue to borrow at a rate of something like 18 billion dollars a year. That's a bit steep for Lisa Raitt. Ms. Raitt is the Conservative Deputy Leader. We reached her in Toronto.

Ms. Raitt, The Finance Minister is calling this a feminist budget, and he's titled it “Equality in Growth”. What would you call it?

LISA RAITT: I would call it “Let's Wait and see What Happens”. I mean there's one thing to be putting money into areas in which they view as important. But we also need to have a government that's able to actually exercise on these ideas and put them into being. And right now, I don't know if I have any confidence in their ability to do that.

CO: When you say things that they want to do, do you disagree with the plan? Because it seems to be the principal things someone's pointed out the word women is mentioned in the budget 700 times that the Liberals say they're focused on having gender equality, getting more women into the workforce and that they believe will actually grow the economy not just be fair. What do you say to that?

LR: So you know what? I've done a lot of study in a lot of information with respect to how you go about ensuring that you grow the economy. And there is no question about the fact that we have made sure that we get more women into the workforce. What I do worry about is how we go about it, and whether or not this government is going to actually achieve it? And what I'm seeing right now is that you know some money being put into entrepreneurs and some money being put into innovation and a lot of money being put into saying that it's a gender equality budget. But we're going to have to see what ends up happening at the end of the day. And I think women do care about, Carol, quite frankly is how much debt and deficit we're going into in order to accomplish these things?

CO: Now, of course, the deficit you're pointing out is we were promised during the election campaign that it would be in the 10 billion dollar threshold. Now it looks like well 18 billion dollars. Not going down anywhere nearly as fast as they said it was going to. What do you make of that?

LR: What I say is the problem with having a deficit year over year is that accumulated debt the debt has to be paid down and it has interest rates attached to it and interest rates are going up. So that means more and more taxpayer dollars are going to be going to pay down that debut. And as we continue to basically run the credit cards at a deficit level over the number of years, it gets harder and harder to pay down that debt. Not only pay it off, but even to manage the minimum payments that are going to be needed. And that eats into really important I guess portfolios that we care about like health, like transfers to other provinces, like our OAS, and our guaranteed annual supplements to our seniors. These are things that actually matter and are concerning to me in the long run of continuous deficit spending.

CO: But Finance Minister Bill Morneau, he's always emphasizing that what he considers to be just as important as the debt and the deficit is the federal debt-to-GDP ratio, which is going down, which is healthy in comparison with other OECD countries or other G7 countries. I believe it is the best in the G7. He points to that as being significant. Do you disagree?

LR: Well, what I agree with in this is that the same kind of mentality was approached with New Brunswick most recently in determining what their level of debt I guess acceptability is. And what was determined was sure, there is a good debt-to-GDP ratio in New Brunswick. However, they're very concerned about the fact that they don't see a way out of deficit, and as a result, they've been downgraded their ability to pay their debts. This is the kind of thing that I worry about for Canada because what Bill Morneau did not do today is to show us the way in which he was going to bring us out of deficit. There's no plan to get there. There's a lot of plans for spending. There's a lot of plan for payments, but there's no plan there for determining how we're going to get ourselves back to that balance, even close to a balance.

CO: Do you see any place where there is a contingency or a consideration of what we might do if the United States — if Mr. Trump — follows through on some threats he's made, which is to pull the United States out of the Free Trade Agreement and hence end NAFTA?

LR: Yeah, my understanding was that there was going to be a buffer placed in the budget to deal with what would happen if we weren't able to negotiate a NAFTA deal. And whatever that amount is what it is and I haven’t seen it, Carol, to be honest. But the reality is that if a government is placing that kind of a marker in a budget that means they're very concerned about the fact it's not going to happen, and it's more than just a couple of billion dollars on the Canadian economy. It's an admission of the fact that this has gone from being a possibility to a probability and a risk. And that's something that I think a lot of businesses are going to be looking at in terms of the subtext of what this budget is. This budget is a lot of spending. And the question is how much will Canadians actually get out of it?

CO: Many people have already commented that this is a very political budget. I guess most of them are, but some more than others. And that the politics are left — they’re center-left politics that it appears through the policies that the Liberals are trying to cut the NDP’s grass —that's where they're leaning. They don't seem to be going after the votes for the Conservatives. What do you make of that?

LR: It’s interesting. And certainly, Jagmeet Singh indicated today that pharmacare is something that's very important to the NDP. But here's the difference: the Liberal government is sending out a former Liberal cabinet minister in Ontario to do a bit of a consultation on what they think is appropriate. I think if Jagmeet Singh was elected, he probably would institute pharmacare immediately. And I think that the difference between what the NDP would do and what the Liberals are doing. And it is very political in that sense, and I feel bad for the people who are looking to this government to deliver on the promises that they deem as important, knowing that they're not going to deliver on it.

CO: And just for people, Eric Hoskins is the person you're mentioning — former Liberal cabinet minister in Ontario, who's now going to head that up, and yet, no money in the budget for a pharmaceutical bill of any kind at this point, but a study. Ms. Raitt, thanks so much for speaking with us.

LR: I appreciate it, Carol.

CO: Bye bye.

LR: Take care. Bye.

JD: Lisa Raitt is the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. She was in Toronto today. And do stay tuned. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Finance Minister is going to be on to defend his boss's budget later on in the program.

[Music: Strong acoustic guitar]

NRA boycott

Guest: Michael Williams

JD: The political battle over guns in America is becoming a battle of the pocketbooks. Over the weekend, Delta Airlines was one of several companies that bowed to public pressure for a NRA boycott, and axed its discount for members. And now, Republican state senators in Georgia are vowing to retaliate against the Atlanta-based airline — by killing a planned tax break. Michael Williams is one of the senators who's lined up against Delta. We reached him in Atlanta.

CO: Senator Williams, why do you want to make Delta Airlines pay a price for cutting ties with the NRA?

MICHAEL WILLIAMS: Well, that's not really what I am doing. Before Delta even came out and said they were not going to honour the discount NRA members on Friday, I was in the Senate Finance Committee as well as on the floor of the Senate, trying to hold that section out of the bill. As I said, days before Delta even came out and did that. So I am against corporate welfare, and that's what I see the stat of Georgia is trying to give Delta a tax break and they don’t need one.

CO: And so you were already opposed to this fuel tax break, is that right?

MW: Exactly.

CO: Now since the airline has dropped the NRA — it did so on Saturday — has it helped you to convince your Republican colleagues to join you?

MW: Yeah, absolutely. Before Delta made that move to withdraw their support or the discount for NRA, it was only me and maybe one or two other senators that were trying to fight this tax credit. And after they went out and said they were going to take away that discount, we have had a tremendous amount of supporters, of people going to social media, calling their senators, e-mailing, Twitter, all forms. Reaching out, touching them and letting them know that they do not support this tax credit to Delta. In essence, you know changing a lot of their minds as well.

CO: And what about you? I mean you were already opposed to the fuel tax, but what do you think about Delta making this decision to drop the NRA subsidy?

MW: I think from a business perspective; this was very, very stupid on Delta’s part. Again, they are very aware of what happens in the Georgia legislature. Again, the day after I was fighting this tax credit on the Senate floor — I was very vocal about it. And the day after that, to come out and say that they're going to pull the support of the NRA, it shows me that they are very confident in the politicians that they have their back pocket to force this thing through. And that's what Casey was actually trying to do — Casey Cagle, the lieutenant governor here in Georgia — was actually trying to force this through, even after Delta said that. But because of the pushback that I've been able to make, as well as the people of Georgia, the senators are not with him anymore. That's when he came out and said he was going to stop it as well.

CO: But he's saying he believes it's because that he thinks that Delta is betraying the Second Amendment, that this goes against the wills of conservatives, that Delta and the others who were part of this boycott of the NRA are making a big mistake. Would you agree with him?

MW: Casey is your typical bought-and-paid-for politician that's been in office for almost 25 years — over a quarter century. And he is trying to do his best to push this tax credit through. So he's orchestrated this whole deal where they just apologize and he could then pass the bill because that's what he needs to get senators back behind him again. Because he's lost the support of the senators, and he's trying to do everything he can to get their support again.

CO: So if Delta backs down, it won't change your mind about your decision?

MW: Not all. Not all. Again, we don't need to give Delta a 40 million dollar tax break. It's one of the largest airlines in the world; they make billions of dollars every single year. And that money needs to stay in the pockets of Georgians, not in corporations — bottom line.

CO: But it employs 33,000 people in your state. So why would you want to hurt a company that provides Georgians with their livelihood?

MW: Again, we're not hurting them. They're already paying the tax, so how are we hurting them?

CO: But you know that New York and Virginia those states are both saying that Delta is welcome to come there and be a based — that they need to stay in your state.

MW: Well, I believe that the environment that Georgia has — the tax environment that we have — people here in Georgia that are willing to work for Delta is much greater and better than anything any other state can provide.

CO: The Republicans who have come onside with you to oppose this tax being removed. They're saying well, they're responding to the NRA boycott, which is because of these students and parents who are grieving. I mean do you think that Boycott NRA has legitimacy given where it's coming from?

MW: No, I don't. I think if you want to talk about the tragedy that happened in Florida and Las Vegas — all the shooting school shootings. Let's talk about the underlying issue, and that is the pervasiveness of violence in our culture. How desensitized these children are to violence. You have you have kids that are taking their own life; the suicide rate among high school students is astronomical right now — it's off the charts. So let's start talking about the real issue, and not politicizing these horrific tragedies.

CO: But Delta says it's not about taking a side, it’s the opposite. They want to be neutral in what turned out to be a very heated debate about the NRA. And by virtue of pulling a subsidy, that it's making its own level playing field.

MW: Again, to say that Delta was trying to stay neutral. To stay neutral would have been to have done nothing. They did have to withdraw this discount. They decided to do that. And they underestimated how important the Constitution and the Second Amendment right is that people here in Georgia.

CO: Correct me if I'm wrong, but the NRA gives you a very high rating I think of a 93 per cent approval, and it endorsed you in 2016, is that right?

MW: That could be. I don't follow their rating. I know that I was an incumbent in 2016, so odds are that they probably did support me.

CO: Have you accepted money from the NRA?

MW: No, I have not. I've not received a single dime from the NRA.

CO: So when you say the others are bought-and-paid-for, what funding sources do you get? Who are you getting money from?

MW: Well, in my first race to beat an incumbent Republican, I put over 300 thousand dollars of my own money into the race. And in my campaign for governor, I've got over a million-and-a-half dollars. And I'm relying upon the hard working people of Georgia to donate. We're getting three dollar donations, five donations, ten dollar donations from people that are biscuit makers, stock boys at Wal-Mart, mechanics at Goodwrench, so it’s the good people of Georgia — hardworking people of Georgia — who are supporting my campaign, as well as money I'm putting into it.

CO: You're running for governor, right?

MW: Yes, ma'am.

CO: It's just months away. And you're saying that Mr. Cagle is bought-and-paid-for — he’s one of those politicians. Is this going to get you votes? Is this your position on Delta is that going to help you?

MW: Again, I was fighting this before it became national news. I have been fighting this again on the principle that we do not need to give tax credits and tax deductions to big corporations that are making billions of dollars, especially when we haven't fully funded education in Georgia, and our tax rates here in Georgia are some of the highest in the southeast.

CO: We’ll leave it there. Senator Williams, thank you.

MW: All right, thank you.

JD: Michael Williams is a Republican state senator in Georgia. We reached Senator Williams in Atlanta.

[Music: Pop]

Craig McMorris

Guest: Craig McMorris

JD: No other sport has moves as delicious as snowboarding. There's the Cab 1260 Shifty Roast Beef. The Swiss Cheese Air. The Canadian Bacon. And CBC Olympics commentator Craig McMorris managed to give us a taste of that smorgasbord, through his vivid words. Mr. McMorris was offering analysis of the snowboarding events — all while watching his younger brother, Mark, take the slope and win a bronze medal. Here's a sampling platter of the commentary Craig McMorris fed us, over these past two weeks from PyeongChang.

SOUNDCLIP

CRAIG MCMORRIS: I mean his knees were weak, arms were heavy arms, palms had to be a little bit sweaty, but hey, brings us spaghetti, Mark McMorris.

CM: Smooth operator, twisted sisters, going hard in the paint.

CM: Sliding in the first like Pete Rose.

ROB SNOEK: There's a great look at that chicken salad.

CM: And when I say chicken salad, you use that front hand.

CM: You miss a hundred per cent of the shots you don't take. And Seb Toots tries to put a Clapper on net with that front triple at the bottom.

CM: We're excited, snd Canadians. Rightly so — that was a great run. But there are many bobbles here.

Craig McMorris is back in Canada now, with some pretty bad jetlag. We reached him in Vancouver.

CO: Craig, what's it like to hear yourself playing in loop like that?

CM: I don’t know how I feel about that, If I’m going to be perfectly honest with you guys. It's funny hearing all that kind of stuff out of context. I sound like a crazy person I just realized.

CO: But people loved it. I mean you know is now referred to as McMorris-isms.

CM: Oh, that's wonderful. I just had such a blast hearing all that kind of stuff. When I hear what I'm saying, I can picture the person's run in my head or the tricks that they were doing, and I just think back. It was such a blast to call such an amazing couple event alongside my partner Rob Snoek, who was always a treat to sit in the booth with. So be on the hosting side as well; I was hosting that “Olympic Overnight” show. I really got to dive deep into the research pre-games, and watch all these athletes who you feel like you know their story unfold throughout the Games. So I think that was probably my favourite part.

CO: But was it a major bobble?

CM: Naw that was not. That was a minor bobble. I think the judges might miss that on the replay there.

CO: What is a major bobble?

CM: A major bobble, so on a slopestyle run, usually what I'm calling it, is something that you don't want to happen. I mean the snowboarders they descend the course and try and execute the most technically challenging tricks they can with perfection. And then sometimes in that perfection, there's a couple of slip ups or bobbles as I used. Maybe I used that a little too much that one?

CO: I think you could use it actually in radio interviews; I think I’ve bobbled a few.

CM: No, no.

CO: Yeah.

CM: No, Carol, I don't believe that.

CO: Here's some other phrases of yours, which I think are definitely yours: doing the extracurricular.

CM: Doing the extracurricular! I love that one. Extracurricular would be doing everything. It's a judged sport, right? So you have to impress the judges, and you get a score out of 100 for your run. And if you're doing extracurricular, you're doing everything and more. Maybe you've got great amplitude, and you're attempting extremely technical tricks, and you're executing those trick. I think it's kind of like an all-encompassing you've done the extracurricular on this one.

CO: OK, here's one of yours: that's the white buffalo of boarding.

CM: The white buffalo. I think the elusively. Isn' t it a mythical creature the white buffalo and everybody's always trying to find it? I don't know if I made that up in my head?

CO: I think maybe you did. There's white bears — there might be a white buffalo — but I've never heard of…

CM: Oh, it’s a white bear. It's the white bear. I'm from Saskatchewan, we have a lot more buffalo where we used to than bears.

CO: And I don’t think you have any white ones.

CM: No, we don't have white ones, but we're looking for them. This is the one thing that I want to express to Canadians: some people are asking me like oh, do you like sit down and plan your one-liners? Or like do you know think ahead of what might happen, and then try and plan accordingly? No, like I am watching the event. And I'm so passionate about snowboarding, like I love it so much that when I see something exceptional or great, it's hard for me to contain myself. And that's kind of a very spontaneous sayings.

CO: Lots of people are like that, but they don't come up with lines like these. Here's one of yours that you’ve got explain: he's going to upset the apple cart because he hates fruit.

CM: Oh, OK. So Rob Snoek said he's looking to upset the apple cart about Max Parrot, and I thought that was kind of funny. And then I was like well if he does that, he must not like fruit very much. So I think I was taking tag-team joke there.

CO: He set you up, but this one is yours. And I think this is now going to be the classic McMorris-ism: holy kittens.

CM: Holy kittens. It's so funny because I didn't even realize I said that. In 2014, Sochi Russia, and the PR person, who's become a great friend of mine, Nadia Flaim, at CBC. I just remember her losing it — like absolutely losing it — on the fact that I said holy kittens. And then I was like oh, that is kind of weird. So ever since then, she's always brought it up. And I didn't think I used it that much, and then I listened to one of my calls, and I was like OK, maybe it's time for the kittens to grow up to be cats, and we lose that one. But if people like it, I’ll keep saying it.

CO: You know what you mentioned how much you just like watching the athletes and seeing them. And, of course, there was one Regina’s own Mark McMorris.

CM: That's true. I really enjoy watching him snowboard that’s for sure.

CO: This is your brother. How did it feel to have him as one of the athletes in these Olympics?

CM: Well, just knowing everything that he's been through over the past 11 months, and you know it's been the story of Mark's career. Favourite, to injured, to favourite, to injured, to favourite to injured a couple times. So seeing that journey and the amount of work he's put into it, I really you know I admire him. And the fact that he's my little brother doesn't hurt either. That being said, I loved calling snowboarding events because I don't know how or I don't even know if I'm trying to, but I feel like I'm very unbiased towards the event because I've been a competitor for a number of years, and I really understand how it works. I'm good friends with almost everybody. It's hard for me to be biased for one person because then I would be neglecting a friend or family member.

CO: But this one was special. It wasn't just your brother as you mentioned. And what he has been through since last March. And you said what you got to know were the stories — the stories of the athletes; the backstories. And the one of your brother — and you were at his side to all of that — that horrible accident on the slopes, broken jaw, broken ribs, broken arm, ruptured spleen, collapsed lung. That was just less than a year ago.

CM: Yeah, that was the worst day of my life. And it's yeah, it's very, very, very painful situation, and everything that came from it — still really shell-shocked, if you will. And it was always like that accident happening kay, make sure he’s still alive. Kay, make sure he can walk again. Now, he's snowboarding, and then now, he is competing at the Olympics and earned a bronze medal. To see that story come full-circle is probably the most meaningful thing I've seen in my life.

CO: And when you saw your brother, Mark, win bronze in the men's slopestyle event, what was that like?

CM: It was extremely special to see Mark just do well, you know? Just land, and I was just happy that he's alive, so anything on top of that is just a cherry.

CO: I think he would have been forgiven if you didn't sound completely neutral when you were covering that snowboarding event with your brother.

CM: Oh, thank you, Carol. I appreciate that.

CO: We have one more McMorris-ism to throw your way: he must listen to a lot of Tom Petty because he doesn't back down.

CM: Billy Morgan — bronze medal in big air at the inaugural running at the 2018 PyeongChang Winter Games. I remember that run.

CO: Well, that gives us an excuse for some music. And, Craig, it's good to talk to you. I'm so happy for your brother. Thank you.

CM: Oh, I appreciate the time. You have a good day, OK.

CO: You too. Bye.

CM: Bye.

JD: Craig McMorris was a CBC Olympic snowboarding commentator during the 2018 Winter Games in PyeongChang. He is also bronze medalist snowboarder Mark McMorris’s big brother. We reached Craig McMorris in Vancouver.

Back To Top »

Part two: Congolese asylum seeker, old teapot

Congolese asylum seeker

Guest: Lee Gelernt

JD: They've been kept thousands of kilometres apart for months. And now, the ACLU is demanding they be brought together. This week, the American Civil Liberties Union filed a lawsuit, demanding the U.S. government reunite a Congolese asylum seeker and her seven-year-old daughter. The mother is in California. Her daughter is in illinois. Lee Gelernt is the deputy director of the ACLU Immigrants' Right Project. He's the lawyer who filed the case. We reached him in New York City.

CO: Mr. Gelernt, these refugees came to the United States as asylum seekers. Why was the mother separated from her child?

LEE GELERNT: That's a good question. We don't know why the mother was separated from the child. What we're hearing is that the administration has an overall plan to deter asylum seekers. And one of the ways they think they can deter asylum seekers is by separating parents from their children. I think the administration's hope is that the word will get around the world that if you come to the U.S., you may lose your child or be separated for a long time. But this mother has been given no reason why she was separated from her child. But it seems to be part of an overall practice of the administration. We're hearing about hundreds of families that have been separated at the border during the Trump administration.

CO: So she came from the Democratic Republic of Congo. We presume that whatever was happening there was probably pretty awful. She came to the United States. Why did she come to the U.S.? What was her hopes?

LG: Her hope is that she would be given safe haven. She feared for her life in the Congo. She made it to the U.S. with her seven-year-old daughter. She presented herself at the border. And in broken Spanish — told she speaks Lingala — and told the asylum officers that she feared going back to the Congo and that she wanted to apply for asylum. She was given an initial screening asylum interview, which she passed, which means that she has a significant possibility of ultimately obtaining asylum. Yet still, she's been held in detention for nearly four months. And far worse, she was separated from her daughter. She heard her daughter in the next room screaming Mommy, Mommy; don't let them take me away. It's been nearly four months, and she's had roughly six conversations with her daughter, all by phone, never by video, she has no understanding of where her daughter is and why she was separated from her daughter.

CO: Where is her daughter? How is she being cared for?

LG: Her daughter is in a facility near Chicago. And she is under the auspices of the Office of Refugee and Resettlement here in the United States. And that's a program that was set up when kids are truly unaccompanied; when they truly don't have a parent with them that care for those children. This is a child who wasn't unaccompanied. Who was with her mother. And yet, they still separated her and sent her to one of these facilities. She is desperate to reunite with her mother. Her mother is desperate to reunite with her. And we have brought this suit to reunite them. And what we're asking the court to do is to have them both released and be housed in a nongovernmental shelter that houses and cares for asylum seekers. But if the government feels absolutely compelled to continue detaining this mother and child, then we are asking the court to at least make sure they're detained in the same facility together. But under no circumstances under the United States Constitution may they may be separated. And not only is it the law that requires that, but the medical community. There's overwhelming consensus in the medical community that separating a child at this tender age will cause trauma and potentially permanent trauma

CO: In this case also, this this woman has a credible claim as it was determined at the border that she could likely pass all the different hurdles to become accepted as a refugee — as an asylum seeker — in the United States. And so as long as she's separated from the child if this if this is a case — if they're successful — they will be reunited and be living in the United States. One of the arguments you give is that these are legitimate refugees likely to become part of United States…

LG: This mother was absolutely a legitimate asylum seeker according to the government, who passed her in or in our initial screening interview, determined that she had a significant possibility of ultimately obtaining asylum. But we don't want to wait for her to ultimately obtain asylum to be reunited with her daughter. That could potentially take years. There's no reason why this daughter and mother should be separated. There's no reason why other mothers and daughters should be separated solely because the administration thinks it might deter future asylum seekers. The administration should not be deterring asylum seekers under any circumstances. And certainly, should not be doing it to use these children as pawns in some kind of public policy experiment.

CO: You have had contact with this mother who has been called Ms. L In this suit. How is she coping?

LG: The mother is not coping well. It appears that she's not eating and sleeping well. She is terrified of never seeing her daughter again. She has very limited understanding of the process. S1he's from a small village in the Congo. She's terrified. And every time she speaks to her daughter, the daughter is crying. Amazingly, the daughter is asking her how're you doing, Mommy, in prison? Are you eating OK, sleeping OK, you know? And so the daughter is not just petrified for herself but worried about her mother in prison. And the mother is, of course, terrified for her daughter. It's just a bad situation all around.

CO: And why do you suspect that this is some sort of unwritten policy on the part of the Trump administration?

LG: The administration has made it clear they're considering formalizing this as a national policy. But the reason we know it's a practice that's going on systematically is because we are talking to detention providers — people who work in detention centers all over the country — and they are telling us about hundreds of cases of families being separated.

CO: But do you worry at all that by giving a lot of publicity to this case of the mother and daughter that you're doing exactly what they would like this to do? That this will give it a lot of publicity and that word will get back out through initiatives like this? That this is something, you shouldn't face. Don't come to the United States; you're going to have your kids taken away?

LG: I think you know we're hoping to end the practice. And you know if we thought that it would end by itself without a lawsuit, I don't think we would do it. But it doesn't appear that it's going to end without a lawsuit and public pressure. And so I think we need to do it. Otherwise, the word gets out don't come and people sometimes fear for their lives, and they don't come. Or they come, and they lose their children. So either way it's not a good situation. So we just felt like we needed to bring this lawsuit and we needed to make it public what's going on. And hope that the administration reconsiders what they're doing.

CO: We'll be following it. Mr. Gelernt, thank you.

LG: Thank you so much.

JD: Lee Gelernt is a lawyer, and the deputy director of the Immigrants' Rights Project at the American Civil Liberties Union. We reached Mr. Gelernt in New York. And if you'd like to read more on this story, visit our website. Also today, another case involving the ACLU was at the US Supreme Court. The court has ruled that immigrants being held in detention who are facing possible deportation do not have the right to bond hearings every six months. The case now goes back to the lower court. In response, an attorney with the ACLU told Reuters, quote, "The Trump administration is trying to expand immigration detention to record-breaking levels as part of its crackdown on immigrant communities." Unquote.

[Music: Folk]

Question Period: Trudeau on India

JD: The Prime Minister’s colleagues in the House of Commons just will not stop asking how his trip to India went. But they don't want the vacation highlight reel. Today, the Official Opposition hammered the Prime Minister with questions, in his first Question Period appearance since the trip. Conservative Party Leader Andrew Scheer wanted to know how Jaspal Atwal, a convicted attempted murderer, secured a spot on a guest list for a Canadian event in India. He also wondered, aloud, what proof there was to the theory — advanced by an unnamed Canadian government source — that India may have orchestrated the Atwal invitation.Here's what Mr. Scheer said in Question Period today.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW SCHEER: You know normally, the worst the prime minister could do on a foreign trip would be to accomplish nothing. But the prime minister a failure to a new level, in fact, he's left our relations with India worse off than before he left. Now, the briefing to media on the Jaspal Atwal affair included the theory that was advanced by a national security official that India was somehow complicit in organizing this invitation. Does the Prime Minister agree with those allegations?

SPEAKER: The honourable Prime Minister.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Mr. Speaker, it’s disappointing that the Opposition doesn’t recognize the importance of the Canada-India relationship. India’s growing economy offers significant opportunities to strengthen Canada’s middle class. We welcomed over a billion dollars in investments between Canadian and Indian companies. These investments will grow Canada’s economy and increase collaboration.

SPEEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition.

AS: A senior security official made the allegation that the government of India is somehow complicit or involved in the Jaspal Atwal affair. That somehow they were motivated to embarrass the Prime Minister and Canada by colluding to have him at the official events that the Prime Minister was attending. Does the Prime Minister agree or disavow those allegations?

SPEAKER: The honourable Prime Minister.

JT: Mr. Speaker, unlike the previous government, we respect the Non-partisan nature of the public service, especially those who serve in our national security agencies. We trust and listen to the advice and actions that they take, and they will be in the national interest, and they will be impartial.

SPEAKER: The honorable Leader of the Opposition.

AS: Mr Speaker, can the Prime Minister assure Canadians that no other individuals with links to extremist or terrorist organizations were at any of the official events in India while he was there.

SPEAKER: The honourable Prime Minister.

JT: Mr. Speaker in this country we take very seriously the responsibility of keeping Canadians safe, of countering violent extremism, of fighting against terrorism and I can assure member opposite, and indeed, all Canadians that our national security agencies and our police agencies do everything necessary to keep all Canadians safe at all times.

JD: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, answering multiple questions from conservative party leader Andrew Scheer today in Question Period.

[Music: Jazz]

Old teapot

Guest: Clare Durham

JD: The Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York just bought a teapot. You probably can't even make tea in it because it's old and it’s cracked; it doesn't even have a lid. But they paid more than a million bucks Canadian for it. That seems pretty pricey for a teapot that very likely dribbles, especially when the seller bought it for something closer to twenty dollars Canadian. But Clare Durham still believes it's money well spent. Ms. Durham is the Ceramics Specialist at the UK auction house Woolley and Wallis. She's the one who first realized that the little teapot might be something special. We reached Clare Durham in Salisbury, England.

CO: Ms. Durham, how did this teapot end up in your hands?

CLARE DURHAM: It was brought to me by one of our regular private clients who is a collector of English porcelain and pottery. And he brought it in just before Christmas last year and had purchased it at auction about a year previous to that. So that's how he came to us.

CO: Now on paper, it doesn't read like much, does it: a cracked teapot that doesn't have a lid.

CD: It doesn't sound like much at all. And I have to say when we first saw it; I knew it was interesting — the pattern made it really interesting. And luckily, there was enough about it that I had a gut feeling that it was more than just a broken teapot. But I have to say it certainly didn't initially occur to me that it was going to go on to be the superstar it's become.

CO: What does it look like?

CD: It's quite small, a white ground and printed in blue on one side with this wonderful, big palmetto and underneath two cranes with sort of Chinese sampan boats and rocky islands in the background. On the other side, is a pattern called man on the bridge patter, which again, is a landscape. And that’s seen on quite a few of our English factories, so it really wasn't that that made it stand out. But the palm tree is not really seen on English porcelain at all until about 1780. And even then, only rarely on a couple of patterns, so it's that really makes it quintessentially American.

CO: And that's, of course, what's so significant about this, isn't it? Because there must be crates of old English teapots out there made in England, but the fact that this is from the United States — this is probably the earliest teapot people have seen from the US — tell us about that? Where it might have come from?

CD: It was made by a potter called John Bartlam in Cainhoy, in South Carolina. Bartlam was actually a Brit, but we know that he left England in some debt and went across to South Carolina in 1763, and set up a pottery in 1765, which is a canny move. I mean you've got the clay over there, which we don't have here. And, of course, there are a lot of very wealthy settlers in South Carolina. So to be able to sell direct to them without the need to ship it across the Atlantic made great sense. And he was the very first producer of porcelain on American soil. So it is indeed the earliest American porcelain teapot, and perhaps the only recorded 18^th-century porcelain teapot surviving. And that’s what makes it so incredibly rare.

CO: So we're trying to imagine this is that era of South Carolina, it’s still colonies, this is before the American War of Independence, before the Boston Tea Party. Can you imagine the housewife — the family — that would have had this teapot part of a service I'm sure in South Carolina in the 1760s?

CD: So actually that particular teapot might never actually been used in America but was kept in England. But certainly he would have sold porcelain to Americans; they would have been very wealthy families that would have taken real pride of place on their tea table, and come out at special occasions really designed to impress the neighbours.

CO: Now let's go to the auction itself, what did you think it was going to sell for? What was your suspicion?

CD: I’d sort of not read the dreams or allowed myself to hope. I was slightly certain it was going to make over $50,000. Two or three people had said to me before the auction that they thought it might do over $200,000, but I didn't really think that they meant it, in all honesty. And nobody expected it to go for what it did. I think probably if I'd have had to put a bet on, I’d have probably gone around $120,000.

CO: Pounds or dollars?

CD: A pound.

CO: Well OK, in pounds, it was what? Five-hundred-seventy-five-thousand?

CD: Yes, with the premium/

CO: When that happened — when the gavel went down on this price — what did you think?

CD: Just absolutely amazed. I mean the room you could have heard a pin drop. It was absolutely silence. All I could hear was my heart hammering, to be honest. But just an incredible price, and I think it's taken a while to sink in that that is what it's done. But, obviously, it's going see the Metropolitan Museum in New York, which is absolutely the right place for. I'm delighted that it's going there.

CO: And what is the seller's saying about that price?

CD: He’s over the moon. I mean, obviously, it's a fabulous return for him having only spent 15 pounds on it. But he's such an enthusiastic. He loves poetry and porcelain so much, and he's been studying it for so long that I actually think more than the money, He loves being part of something that you know this is an which he has rescued, essentially, because it was languishing in a general sale. And probably without his bid, could have ended up in the bin. He has rescued that, and it is now in one of the biggest museums in the world. And it's going to be looked at for generations to come. So I think he's just as excited at that as this incredible sum of money.

CO: That's a great payoff for a lot of investment and study and observation, isn’t it?

CD: Yes.

CO: Ms. Durham, it’s lovely to speak with you. Thanks so much.

CD: No problem.

CO: Bye bye.

JD: Clare Durham is a ceramics specialist at the UK auction house Woolley and Wallis. We reached her in Salisbury, England. If you’d like to see some photographs of that little teapot, go to the As It Happens website.

[Music: Ambient]

From Our Archives: Cynthia Heimel obit

JD: She was the original Carrie Bradshaw. Long before "Sex and the City", Cynthia Heimel wrote sex columns. And she did it with a wit and attitude. Ms. Heimel died this week. She was seventy-years-old. Over the course of her three-decade-long writing career, her columns appeared in publications as diverse as Vogue, the Village Voice, Playboy. She advised women to enjoy sex, even in a culture that she felt taught women to hate themselves. In Ms. Heimel's words, quote, "Sex is important! Sex is profound! Sex is funny!" And she also wrote a number of books — from 1973's "Get Your Tongue out of My Mouth, I'm Kissing You Good-Bye," to 1991's "If You Can't Live Without Me, Why Aren't You Dead Yet?" But it was her book "Sex Tips for Girls," that brought Ms. Heimel onto CBC Radio's "Basic Black" in 1984. From our archives, here's part of that interview with the late Arthur Black.

SOUNDCLIP

ARTHUR BL:ACK Why did you choose that title for your book?

CYNTHIA HEIMEL: Perversity.

AB: Well, it's honest.

CH: It seemed to offend as many people as I could using the term girls in this day and age. It sounded catchy though.

AB: You could have used gals — that would have netted you more.

CH: Yeah, in Texas it might have gone over like a storm.

AB: And Thunder Bay I'm afraid. Why did you figure there was a need for a book like this?

CH: I kept reading all these books that come out on the market “How to Make Love to your Mother”, “How to Make Love to the Postman”. You know all the sex manuals. And I found them repellent. They didn't seem to have anything to do with me, any of my friends, anything that we really thought about, anything that we were really concerned with. And I just decided to have a bash.

AB: Cynthia, in any discussion of whatever, the four letter word love always seems to rear its ugly head. How exactly do you advise a girl to tell that she's in love or not?

CH: Well, there are so many things that aren't love.

AB: Such as what?

CH: Well, lust. We've heard of lust. I think you know if you haven't been with a man in the biblical sense in a long time, every man you can fall in love with. You know someone on the subway will look good. Just the curve of a certain bicep and you're madly in love. And then there's infatuation and you think you're in love but you're not because you fantasised about this person to such an extent that you've created a whole personality for him, which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with who he is. You usually find out that infatuation doesn't work the first time he needs root canal work. And you realize wait, this is not the guy on the white horse; this is a guy with a swollen cheek. Then there's a crush. A Crush or something that we do when we don't have time to fall in love, you just sort of you know yearn after someone without doing anything about it. Like when you were 12-years-old. Or when I was 12-years-old and was in love with Paul McCartney. And then there's obsession, which is something too grisly to even talk about.

JD: From our archives, that was Cynthia Heimel on CBC Radio's “Basic Black” in March of 1984. She was talking about her book “Sex Tips for Girls”. Cynthia Heimel died this week. She was seventy-years-old.

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Part three: Budget: Government, yellow cardinal

Frozen eagle

JD: It's as free as a bird now. And that bird you cannot change. The lyrics to Lynyrd Skynyrd's "Free Bird" — a touching ode to birds, and freedom, and the song that's probably been going through Game Warden Spencer Grace's head lately. Because he didn't change the bird itself — you can't do that, as the song says — but he did save it by changing its circumstances. And by doing that, he saved it. Earlier this month, some ranchers in Oklahoma saw a bald eagle, struggling in a frozen field. And when Game Warden Grace arrived, he found an extremely un-free bird. He recorded what happened next. And here's some of the tape he later posted on Facebook

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SPENCER GRACE: Now we're a little closer to him. Looks like he’s just covered in ice, he's trying to fly, and he can go a little ways, but maybe if he could dry out, he'd be OK. Well, we’ve caught our eagle over here by Apperson road. And I'm trying to catch my breath because it wasn't real easy to get caught up with him. As you can see, if we can get this camera to focus on the bird, the eagle is covered with a coat of ice. And I want to get him warmed up and, hopefully, he'll be able to regain his energy and get dried off. And he's pretty stressed out right now. But I think that’s the first time I've ever had an eagle that couldn't fly that was coated in ice. Going to let our eagle out, assuming he wants to get out. Looks like he’s going to fly away. He’s going to make it up to that tree. And he’s landed. He’s got everything an eagle needs. There’s two dead cows right underneath him.

JD: Unfrozen wings, a tree, and -- as you just heard -- two dead cows. What more could a bald eagle want in life? That was tape from Oklahoma Game Warden Spencer Grace's rescue of a frozen bald eagle in Osage/Kay County, Oklahoma. And you can find the video to that audio on our twitter feed.

[Music: Easy listening]

Budget: Government

Guest: Joel Lightbound

JD: As you heard at the top of the program this evening, the Opposition Conservatives aren’t particularly fond of what they heard in today's federal budget. They're accusing the Liberals of being spendthrifts with Canadians hard-earned cash. The Liberals, however, say that they're investing in the future of Canadians. And that their gender-based budgeting will make sure the economy offers women something closer to an equal chance. Joel Lightbound is the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance. We reached him in Ottawa.

CO: Mr. Lightbound, your government is projecting a deficit of 18 billion dollars. This is yet again — another one like this. Since the promises of 2015, the idea of a balanced budget doesn't seem likely for many more years. What do you say to that?

JOEL LIGHTBOUND: Well, I think that that is the single thing that we look at that's most important to us to be fiscally responsible is to look at the debt to GDP ratio. And when you look at the Canadian debt compared to the size of the economy, it's on a downward track. We were in the best position in the G7 — the best fiscal position. So I think to us, balanced budget ought to be an objective, but not an obsession. When it's an obsession you see what the Conservatives have done in their last years in power that have been disastrous for the Canada, like cutting or laying off 700 pay specialists that have led to the Phoenix pay system problems that we've had. And I could go on and on one on the problems.

CO: Sure, but the thing is that the questions being asked by the Conservatives is that yes, the economy is going well in Canada, which is leading to that good ratio. But things may not stay this way. As you know that we're hearing noises from the Donald Trump presidency, noises from the White House about tearing up NAFTA. Many people are concerned that we don't see anything in this budget for dealing with that possibility. Where the firewalls that will protect the Canadian economy, should Mr. Trump do something dramatic?

JL: Well, I think from our perspective. The role of the government is to take a very poised approach. Monitor what's happening in the United States with the tax reform that they've that they've proposed and they've put forward. To monitor the situation and make sure that Canada remains competitive. But we've lowered the small business tax rate heading to 9 percent. We're investing historically in science and fundamental research, which will lead to innovation, lead to Jobs. It has in my riding; it has in all parts of Canada. And I would argue that Canada with the skilled labour that we have with the investment in top-of-line research that happens in Canada. And with the low corporate tax rate that is already in place in Canada, we are very competitive and will remain competitive. But as you mentioned, I think the responsible thing is to not react too rapidly or emotionally to what we see happening in the U.S., but keep a close eye on the situation.

CO: We're not asking you for an emotional response. We’re asking for your contingency in case NAFTA gets torn up. We don't see it, and that was something people expected to see in this budget.

JL: Well, as I said, I think what we're trying to achieve with this budget is to make sure that Canada is competitive with the investments we're making in research, with the programs for skilled labour that we're putting forward, and our ambitious plan to make sure that we have a fully participating workforce where we empower women to fully participate in our economy. We know that's good for the economy. We know this could boost the Canadian economy significantly. But that there are systemic barriers that need to be addressed, and this budget is addressing these errors.

CO: I'll do this one more time. But was there not supposed to be something in this budget that was going to give an indication of what the plan is that the Liberal government has for dealing with the possibility of losing NAFTA?

JL: Well, as I've mentioned, Canada is competitive, we've lowered the small business tax rate, we want to make sure that our economy keeps growing and this is precisely what this budget and with the actions of this government has been. All along we're monitoring the situation right now. But I think you can expect a knee-jerk reaction to what we've seen in the United States happening on a day- to-day basis. We're taking a responsible and prudent approach when it comes to managing the Canadian economy.

CO: Well, can I take that as a no that there is not a contingency plan?

JL: Well, there is always a contingency. There is three billion in the budget for contingency if I'm not mistaken. But we're always I think looking at the…

CO: No, a contingency plan for NAFTA. We're talking about something that represents 60 per cent of the Canadian economy.

JL: For NAFTA specifically, as it stands right now, our focus is really to make sure that Canada remains very competitive. And that's why we're making the investments in this budget.

CO: OK, I'll move on…

JL: And I would I would argue that it is. But I think the approach of the Minister has taken — that our government has — taken is you know to monitor the situation, but not to react impulsively. I would put it this way.

CO: You’re calling this the first feminist budget — or Mr. Morneau is. Designed to get more women into the workforce, better more diverse jobs for women, where is your childcare strategy? I mean how do you expect these women to get into these jobs and be able to be competitive, to get to higher positions if they don't have affordable quality childcare, as you do in Quebec? You know how valuable it is there.

JL: Definitely, and that's why we've invested seven-point-five billion over 11 years to create 40,000 affordable places — childcare places — across the country. We've reached agreements with nine out of ten provinces. I think we're looking at ways where the federal government can help make childcare spaces more affordable, and create more spaces. But I think when you look at the budget with the five weeks that we've added on a take-it-or-leave-it basis for parental leave. When I looked at the impact that this has had in Quebec for parental leave and woman participation in the workforce, this has been a very good at positive step that Quebec has taken that has inspired our government to move forward with the parental benefits for the second parent. So that's five weeks more that we're offering on a take-it-or-leave-it basis that should encourage the second parent to take parental leave, to assume more family responsibilities, and allow women to choose to participate more in the economy. That has proven very successful in Quebec. I think that is a that's a very good step forward. We'll also introduce pay equity legislation for federally-regulated sectors. we're putting one-point-six billion dollars available for women entrepreneurs to the BDC. When you look at the measures that are placed in this budget, I think it truly is a feminist budget. And we walk the talk.

CO: All right, we'll leave it there. Mr. Lightbound, thank you.

JL: thank you very much.

JD: Joel Lightbound is the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance. We reached Mr. Lightbound in Ottawa.

[Music: Jazzy piano]

Snake catcher

JD: Australia is home to some of the world's most terrifying creatures, from box jellyfish to the Sydney funnel web spider to Paul Hogan. But they're all outside. Surely you're safe in your kitchen, making lunch for your kid. Well, it's Australia, so no. Recently, a mother found a venomous baby brown snake that had tucked itself into her child's lunchbox. And after cursing her monster-strewn country, she called Adelaide snake catcher Rolly Burrell. Here's part of what Mr. Burrell told ABC Radio Adelaide about how often he runs into these snakes in his line of work.

SOUNDCLIP

ROLLY BURRELL: It's that time of the year, they’re all hatching. We’re doing about 50-60 calls a day. And they’re all baby brown snakes. All the big stuff is starting to look for places to hibernate. So the young ones are hatching, and they’re looking for their food before they hibernate.

HOST: So a photo was sent in of this lunchbox. And just to give everybody else a picture, it was kind of caught in the crevice around the lid, OK? So it's a small snake. But what did the person that sent it to you say? Was it their child that opened it?

RB: No, no, she actually opened it. She'd already started packing it. And the lunchbox itself has a lip around the top. Snakes like to get into close places, so they feel secure. So when she opened up the lid…

HOST TWO: This is mum opening up the lid? And she didn't even see it. She was halfway through making the lunch. And then she saw it, and she shut the lid down and gave us a call.

HOST: I can't even imagine.

HOST TWO: Rolly Burrell, would a baby brown snake hurt you?

RB: Look, they’re lethal.

HOST TWO: Even a baby is lethal?

RB: Yeah, they’ve got to have venom to eat.

HOST: Well, not if they're eating apples and chips. And if there's a little one, does that mean that there are more around?

RB: Well, the mother doesn’t hang around. She lays her eggs and she's goes. And she’s quite cannibalistic, even if she comes across them in the garden, she’ll eat them. So there's no love there. So they have up to about 40 babies. And they are all hatching now.

JD: That was Australian snake catcher Rolly Burrell, speaking with ABC Radio Adelaide.

[Music: Bluegrass]

School shooting

JD: Officials in Vermont say a deadly school shooting has been stopped. And they're giving the credit to a New York teenager who tipped them off. Earlier this month, Angela McDevitt was exchanging text messages with her friend Jack Sawyer in Vermont. They were talking about the school shooting in Parkland, Florida. Mr. Sawyer allegedly said, quote, "That's fantastic. 100 per cent support it." Ms. McDevitt was alarmed, and she reported him to the authorities. Now, Jack Sawyer is facing several charges, and is accused of planning his own school shooting. He has pleaded not guilty. Yesterday, Ms. McDevitt spoke to Vermont Public Radio's Jane Lindholm. Here is part of their conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

JANE LINDHOLM: How did you know you had to tell someone? Like, how do you know the difference between banter or somebody who's being jokey, especially in text messages. And something that felt different to you?

ANGELA MCDEVITT: Yeah, so I definitely knew the difference when there was no remorse towards people dying. And I knew that that is not something that anyone jokes about.

JL: So this all then unfolded fairly quickly. And once Jack Sawyer was under arrest, the news came out. And you weren't identified right away — you were you were anonymous.

AM: Yes.

JL: Well, how did it feel to see yourself in the news, and to see what happened after you took action?

AM: I did not feel well at all. I remember waking up the next morning after I had reported it, and I looked it up, and I saw that Jack was in custody, and I just did not feel well. I was very emotional the entire day. And so yeah, mostly the overall feeling was just nervousness, and also I just did not feel well at all.

JL: A lot of people — a lot of adults, especially — say if you see something, you have to report it. And it's easy to say that, and perhaps more difficult to do it when you know that it's going to impact the life of somebody that you care about or that you are friends with. So what do you say to other people who might find themselves in your situation?

AM: I definitely think that you have to put the bigger picture and the greater good above your friendship. And it is hard to do. It's still hard for me emotionally. I just find myself very upset sometimes whenever I think about what kind of happened, and I kind of think that you’ve got to look at the greater good of everything. And yeah, you might have the sense of betrayal of a friendship. But I think that in this case, the reward was a lot, lot, lot greater.

JD: That was Angela McDevitt, speaking with Vermont Public Radio's Jane Lindholm. Ms. McDevitt is being credited with preventing a school shooting in Vermont.

[Music: Piano]

Yellow cardinal

Guest: Jeremy Black

JD: It's a golden opportunity — among a lot of red ones. Last month, a woman named Charlie Stephenson was sitting in her backyard in Alabama, watching the birds. She does that a lot, so when she spotted a northern cardinal, she knew it was a northern cardinal. But she knew it was not an ordinary beautiful scarlet one — it was an extraordinary, beautiful bright yellow one. A photo of the vibrant bird went viral, and people started puzzling over how the bird got its hue. Jeremy Black is the wildlife photographer who took that photo. We reached him in Alabaster, Alabama.

CO: Jeremy, what was it like when you first saw this yellow cardinal?

JEREMY BLACK: When I first saw the yellow cardinal, I was kind of star-struck a little bit. It was astonishing to see. I kind of had no idea it existed before I had the opportunity to see it. It was kind of absolutely incredible to be able to see it in person. I was there to do pictures for Charlie Stephenson, and I completely forgot that I was supposed to be taking pictures because I was so star-struck by its beauty.

CO: How did you know that it was a cardinal?

JB: You can tell it's a cardinal by the plumage, which is the vibrancy of the bird, and also, the details along the top of the bird itself. So like many of the birds have that very distinct crown. And that's how you can really distinguish that it's a cardinal compared to other birds.

CO: I understand in part, you knew it was a cardinal because you'd heard that this rare bird was in Alabaster — in your neighborhood — is that right?

JB: Yes, it was in actually my friend's neighborhood — name is Charlie Stephenson, and she is the first person who was able to spot the bird and she posted it on social media. She was also kind of astonished. And so after she originally saw it, I saw it from her Facebook page. And immediately contacted her with more information, and wanting to know more about the bird. And she decided to get in contact with a biologist from Auburn University who's been studying where pigment mutations for many years. And that's how we were really able to distinguish that it was definitely a cardinal.

CO: So what have you learned about this yellow Cardinal and how rare it is.

JB: When I originally found out about it, I had no idea of the rarity of it. I know in my lifetime I've never seen one before, so I knew it was definitely something that was different. But I had no idea it was a one-in-a-million chance of being seen, or the mutation occurring in cardinals. Because I mean you're typically exposed to red, and I just I had no idea that it was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to be able to photograph this one bird.

CO: You mentioned mutation. This is what you've learned is that this yellow color is a genetic mutation in this bird, is that right?

JB: Yes. According to the biologist from Auburn, his name is Geofrey Hill, he basically mentions that cardinals with yellow feathers carry a rare mutation that knocks out the pathway for the production of red pigment. And that's due to the foods they consume that contain substances called cardinoids, and that helps to enrich their colours.

CO: The red colour that the cardinals get comes from how they metabolize the food that has these Cardinoids in it — this yellow food that is like carrots I guess, right? So in red cardinals —typical cardinals — that turns red. But this one doesn't have whatever it is it changes that into the red pigment — it changes into a yellow pigment.

JB: Yeah, which is why the mutation is so incredibly rare because most of the food these birds typically eat cause them to be a vibrant red, where this one that caused it to be a vibrant yellow and be completely different.

CO: Do you know that some are suggesting that this genetic mutation might actually be a weakness or an illness even.

JB: I wouldn't say that the bird contains an illness due the mutation. Because I've noticed that with its interaction in comparison to other cardinals, and I would say that the bird is incredibly healthy It moves incredibly fast, which makes it hard to photograph. It's very active and very involved with the other cardinals. So I would definitely say that it's not sick or not an illness.

CO: Given the vibrancy of the colour, we can presume it's a male —he's a he.

JB: Yes. Due to the vibrancy of the colour, you can tell it's a male because traditionally, females are more either dark brownish grey and they’re more muted pastel colour compared to males, which are vibrant. And that's actually how they attract females.

CO: And so does this fellow have a mate?

JB: That is a very good question. I've been monitoring the bird now for almost a week, and I've noticed that the females tend to stay away from the cardinal, which is probably because these yellow and they have no idea that it's something completely different or that it is a male. And so I have noticed that there’s a male red cardinal that has been following it around. So I haven't really noticed any females or if there's any mates or anything yet, but I know it's definitely interacting with some of the male cardinals.

CO: In a friendly way or a hostile way?

JB: It's more in a friendly way. I don't think any of the cardinals are really being hostile towards it. When it's on bird feeders and such, it's not really scared or timid when the other birds are around. So I would definitely say that they aren't really being aggressive towards him, which is kind of surprising.

CO: But the females aren't exactly taken with this new fellow?

JB: No, not really. They're not really like flying toward them or going directly at him or anything, whereas the males I guess are more comfortable around him, and tend to be flying closer, landing on fence posts next to him, or even feeding off the same feeder that he does.

CO: There must be flocks of people looking to see this bird?

JB: Yes, we've had an abundance of people. I've received hundreds if not thousands of messages via Facebook from many people wanting to travel all over the United States to come and see this bird. And the good thing is although it's been spotted at a resident’s house in Alabaster, it's also been seen in other locations like your Warrior Park in Alabaster, Alabama. And because of this, we're encouraging people to go there since it is a public place. And we really want to have everyone to have the opportunity to see the bird.

CO: So after you got over being star-struck, you got your photo?

JB: I did. He landed on the neighbours crepe myrtle for about between 3 and 5 minutes at most. And during that time, I was kind of not realising that I'm supposed to be taking pictures. And then I realized I had my camera in my hand at the time. And kind of had a moment where I was like Oh, I'm supposed to be photographic this insanely rare and beautiful bird. And so I managed to capture about two pictures before a squirrel ended up scaring him off.

CO: And is this your crowning achievement in photography of birds?

JB: I would definitely have to say so. I've travelled all over the US to zoos to photograph different species of birds and animals and wildlife in general. And I would say out of everything that I've photographed, this is probably the most unique thing I've ever had the opportunity to take a picture of.

CO: That wonderful. And we’re going to post the pictures, so people can see this beautiful bird. Jeremy, thank you.

JB: I would love that.

CO: Thanks so much.

JB: Thank you. I really appreciate it.

JD: Jeremy Black is a wildlife photographer. We reached him in Alabaster, Alabama. And we have put some photos of the beautiful bird and video up on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih

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February 27, 2018 episode transcript

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