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The AIH Transcript for February 22, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

CO: The company he keeps. Prime Minister Trudeau's trip to India stumbles after Team Canada extends an invitation to a man convicted of trying to kill one of the host country's politicians in the 1980s.

JD: Conjugal miss. Mr. Trudeau's travel woes continue as Indians begin to ask why the handsome man from Canada keeps showing up wearing what is considered to be traditional wedding wear.

CO: The verdict is met with gasps and tears. A jury finds Raymond Cormier not guilty of murdering 15-year-old Tina Fontaine.

JD: Pit stop. He was the United States most wanted deadbeat dad. But now he's facing justice thanks to an Alberta restaurant owner, and an affinity for maraschino cherries.

CO: Nothing basic about him. We remember Arthur Black, the CBC host who wrangled cows and sold encyclopaedias in his early years before turning his finely-tuned sensitive funny to radio and giving us. And giving us two decades of “Basic Black”

JD: And cheap sex. Scientists find an easier way to pick up the penguin girls from the penguin boys because of our guest’s discovery, after listening closely to the songs of the tuxedoed creatures.

JD: As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that enjoys a good bird call.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Part one: Tina Fontaine verdict, Trudeau: invitation, deadbeat dad

Tina Fontaine verdict

Guest: Arlen Dumas

JD: “Not guilty”, a jury has found Raymond Cormier not guilty of murdering Tina Fontaine. The Indigenous teen was just 15-years-old when she was killed. Her body was found in Winnipeg's Red River in August of 2014; eight days after she was reported missing. She had been wrapped in a duvet and weighted down with rocks. Her family and many community members from the Sagkeeng First Nation were in the courtroom. After the verdict, Okimakanak Grand Chief Sheila North Wilson spoke to reporters in Winnipeg.

SOUNDCLIP

SHEILA NORTH WILSON: We as a nation need to do better for our young people all of us. And it might not be this accused person that took her life, but someone took her life. That fact remains. And we must get to the bottom of it. We must understand why our Indigenous youth are marginalized in this way. And stop it and seek to change it. This is not right. This is not the Canada that I want to be a part of. All of us should be ashamed of what happened to her and to Colten Boushie and to others.

JD: Arlen Dumas was also in the courtroom in Winnipeg to hear the verdict with Tina Fontaine's family. He is Grand Chief of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs.

CO: Grand Chief Dumas, I'm so sorry for what your community is going through right now.

ARLEN DUMAS: Yea, It's a very, very difficult time.

CO: Can you tell us how Tina Fontaine's family is reacting? How they're feeling about this not guilty verdict?

AD: Well, it was very painful to be in the courtroom and hear the verdict come down of not guilty and no qualification on that decision. And then to actually see the family crippled by hearing those words. And seeing them break down. That was very difficult to see and to watch. It was very hard to see that.

CO: We have spoken with Tina's great aunt, who's been her caregiver, Thelma Favel, many times. And she is so strong. What she had given Tina when she was alive was such good care. What she going through right now, do you know?

AD: As I said, everyone that was there as a family member was very emotional and very struck by the verdict.

CO: Describe for us if you would what happened in the courtroom when that not guilty verdict was read out?

AD: The family members themselves you know screamed out and started to cry. You know understandably. And then to hear about the individual was just released and let go on his own, you know? And it's very difficult because as we've been following this story and you actually hear the admissions of that individual. I find it shocking that there was actually no other type of reprimand that he could have received. You know just to move a block away scot-free and I think that was extra painful for the family to hear. There were some people in the gallery that just have just walked out. And you know they're very vocal about their disappointments.

CO: And what you're referring to is the major evidence the Crown presented, which is that they had placed listening devices — recording devices — in places where Raymond Cormier had been living — they placed him there. And they had him on tape saying things that referred to Tina Fontaine's death and her age and suggesting that he had motive for actually committing this crime. Does it appear that the jury did not find that strong enough evidence to convict him?

AD: Obviously, you know I found it… and you know I’m not familiar with the court proceedings, but the Crown attorney was very insistent on reminding the jurors that after they've made their decision that you know they're bound by law never to share or talk about any of these things or any of their deliberations. I just found that peculiar. I guess maybe that's something that normally happens, but, obviously, they felt that there was reasonable doubt and they let the guy go free.

CO: The comments that were made on the steps of the courtroom afterwards all point to the profound disappointment that not only is this verdict turned not guilty, but the numbers of times that Tina Fontaine was failed by all kinds of services even in the final hours of her life. They mentioned the Child and Family Services that had contact with her before she died, police that saw her hours before she died, hospital staff that had seen her in a horrible condition just before she died. All of these things revealed in the court just the degree to which this young woman — this girl — had been failed. Did the jury know about that? Was that presented?

AD: You would assume so. You know you would assume that that these things would've been brought forward. You know I can't I can't really speak for the jury, but I believe that all of those things are true. It's sad that all there were so many opportunities for people to reach out and save Tina Fontaine’s life, and especially right to the literal last hours of her life. And these protections didn't serve her. You know she was actually taken to a hotel room you know for protection for safe for safe harbor and, at the end of the day, none of these people you know the Winnipeg police service, the CFS, you know the hospital, all these people didn't take that opportunity to save this young girl’s life.

CO: But where does it go from here? Because if this man Raymond Cormier is not the man who committed this crime, then who is? I mean does that weigh on your community that if he's not guilty, there's someone out there who did this to Tina?

AD: Well, they found him not guilty of second degree murder. I can't speak for anything else. You know I'm not saying that he's completely innocent. I think that that individual had a hand in Tina’s demise somehow. But, hopefully, you know the system needs to check itself. You know the police have to review their files. And we’re going to ensure that somebody is held accountable. And that Tina doesn’t just become another statistic. You know I have to acknowledge the family, even in this difficult time, they’re calls for people to be peaceful and to try and honour her life. But it's very hard to do that when you know so many people were negligent and the system failed her so bad.

CO: We have to leave it there. Grand Chief Dumas, I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AD: Thank you. Bye.

JD: Arlen Doumas is the Grand Chief of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs. He was in the courtroom in Winnipeg when a jury found Raymond Cormier not guilty of second-degree murder in the death of 15-year-old Tina Fontaine.

[Music: Ambient]

Trudeau: Invitation

Guest: Ujal Dosanjh

JD: It was a chance to dine and schmooze with Justin Trudeau in New Delhi. But one person's invitation to today's dinner reception — and now his un-invitation — has thrown the Prime Minister's visit to India into turmoil. Jaspal Atwal was convicted of attempted murder and is a former member of a Sikh separatist group. He tried to kill an Indian cabinet minister while the minister was visiting BC in 1986. Mr. Atwal was also charged, but acquitted in an attack on Ujjal Dosanjh, former Liberal cabinet minister and Premier of BC. We reached Ujjal Dosanjh in Vancouver.

CO: Mr. Dosanjh, what was your first reaction when you heard that Jaspal Atwal had been invited to this dinner in Delhi?

UJAL DOSANJH: Well, I was totally surprised. There are, obviously, concerns about security around the prime minister around the delegation. And here is a man — a convicted attempted assassin of a visiting Punjabi cabinet minister in British Columbia — and someone who had attacked me, although, he wasn't convicted of the attack; he was acquitted. You have a trip being taken to actually remedy some of the problems with the relationship with India, and that just adds to the problems that the relationship had to begin with.

CO: What we're hearing today is that the Trudeau delegation is saying that there was an MP from Surrey Centre, Randeep Sarai, who was the one who made the invitation. It was a mistake; they never should have invited Mr. Atwal to this dinner, immediately rescinded, all as well. What do you say to that?

UD: To go on a diplomatic mission — a trade mission — to a foreign country where you already know there are problems. Why wouldn't you vet people handed over to you in a list by any MP through the appropriate security and political channels?

CO: You tweeted questioning “do you have no shame?” Is the question you put to the prime minister.

UD: Oh, absolutely. Do we have no shame? I mean do we have no shame that we are taking as part of our delegation or receptions a man who tried to kill an Indian cabinet minister? That's what I meant. And I said that the Khalistani sympathies have seeped deep into the veins of our political system. And I still maintain that because I believe it has happened. The part of the reason the government of India and the Indians are mad is that Canadian politicians have never stopped — never, ever stopped going to these parades where these violent murderers like Talwinder Parmar are glorified as heroes; where slogans are raised to dismember a friendly country that's called India. Politicians go on those stages, speak on those stages, go to those temples where these portraits hang, and they don't think twice about it. India is never going to allow anyone to ever divide it again. We lost 14 million Indians going across newly-minted borders in 1947, butchering each other. It's never going to happen again. And Canada should get with it and understand that if it harbours anyone who wants to dismember India, India would not look kindly upon it. And that's not a threat. I mean I'm just saying as an Indian and as a Canadian, it's bad for an Indian-Canadian relationship. And you want to have a good relationship with the largest democracy in the world. It has problems; it's not perfect. We have our own problems. But if you want to trade with one of the largest economies in the world — and a democracy to boot — then we should be more sensitive to their concerns. And we should stop cavorting with these separatists who want to dismember that country.

CO: For people who don't know some of the things you are referring to. You mentioned Talwinder singh Parmar, who is often celebrated at these parades in Canada. He was a Canadian Sikh who is regarded as the mastermind behind the biggest terrorist act in Canadian history: the Air India bombing. And the Khalistani movement itself has been shown to have deep roots in Canada.

UD: Well, Khalistan actually started in Canada before it started anywhere. Khalistan demand existed in Canada in the ‘70s.

CO: The Trudeau government is not the first to have this relationship with the Sikhs and with Khalistan. We've seen it happen with Jason Kenney, for one.

UD: It happened with Jason Kenny; it happened with Harper. But they could say that they really didn't have too many people around that other people happened to think were Khalistanis. In this case, the rest of the world believes that Mr. Trudeau and you know the political party he leads is under more influence of Khalistanis than any other outfit in this country.

CO: Some of the newspapers are finding photos — people are sending photos — that show Mr. Trudeau in other photographs with Mr. Atwal at different times. What does that tell you? I mean what message would you like Mr. Trudeau to take from this.

UD: What it tells me is that Mr. Trudeau, when he ran for leadership, and when he comes here for various political events, His front people who lead in organizing here don’t worry about him meeting and associating with the likes of Mr. Atwal. And that is because they themselves come from the ranks of the separatists. Mr. Trudeau has very close ties to the separatists in this country

CO: Sikh separatists?

UD: Sikh separatists, absolutely.

CO: What's your evidence of that?

UD Ask him whether some of his other political friends in the Parliament don't have histories that align them with the separatists. You know that's for him to decide and for others to investigate. I'm a commentator, I know my facts, and I know from were off I speak.

CO: Well, Mr. Trudeau — and I think that Mr. Harper — has said in the past that the people are entitled to have their views for Sikh separatism, but it's a different thing when they're part of a violent movement — that there is a separation.

UD: You know people are entitled to have their views — there's no question. The Supreme Court of India made the same decision in India that anybody could stand on a street corner and ask for Khalistan; that's not against the law. It's the same law in both countries, and that's freedom of expression. It’s when the governments of the country turn a blind eye, or they themselves through their cabinet ministers, MPs, MLAs, and others associate with the public activities of these groups in parades and temples where they glorify the likes of Parmar that I think becomes a problem; that has nothing to do with freedom of expression.

CO: We’ll leave it there. Mr. Dosanjh, thanks for your time.

UD: Thank you.

JD: Ujjal Dosanjh is a former federal Liberal cabinet minister and premier of BC. We reached him in Vancouver. For more on this story, do check out the “The Current” on CBC Radio tomorrow morning.

[Music: World music]

NRA

JD: Last night, NRA spokesperson Dana Loesch was met with boos and chants of "shame on you" at a CNN townhall. Ms. Loesch was there to take questions from survivors of the school shooting in Parkland, Florida. The students have become a loud and united voice for gun control. Rather than responding with the tough, mocking rhetoric she's known for, Ms. Loesch took a measured tone with the students, even praising them for their activism. That was last night. But today, at the Conservative Political Action Conference, when she was speaking to a sympathetic crowd, she came out swinging. Here's part of what Ms. Loesch had to say, at times addressing reporters in the room directly.

SOUNDCLIP

DANA LOESCH: Many in legacy media love mass shootings. You guys Love it! Now I'm not saying that you love the tragedy, but I am saying that you love the ratings. Crying white mothers are ratings gold to you and many in the legacy media in the back. And notice I said crying white mothers because there are thousands of grieving black mothers in Chicago every weekend, and you don't see town halls for them, do you? Where’s the CNN town hall for Chicago? Where’s the CNN town hall for sanctuary cities? If it bleeds it leads, doesn't it? And I don't mean to ignore you all here, but I'm really looking at a lot of the legacy media back there on the platform. And you can write whatever you want about me, and you can come find me in the hallways, and you can scream at me, and you can try to confront me, but I'm here, we're here, We're not going anywhere; I call BS.

JD: That was National Rifle Association spokesperson Dana Loesch at the Conservative Political Action Conference today. Now, survivors of the school shooting in Parkland, Florida have called the association's campaign donations "blood money." And it was one of those survivors, a student named Emma Gonzalez, who coined that "We call BS" expression you just heard Ms. Loesch use. In a speech last weekend, Ms. Gonzalez said, quote, "Politicians who sit in their gilded House and Senate seats funded by the NRA telling us nothing could have been done to prevent this, we call BS. They say tougher gun laws do not decrease gun violence. We call BS." Unqoute.

[Music: Indie rock]

Deadbeat dad

Guest: Scott Winograd

JD: Joseph Stroup was on the run for almost twenty-years. He was considered America's most-wanted "deadbeat dad," accused of owing more than half-a-million dollars U-S in child support. For a while, Mr Stroup lived in Canada, using an alias and regularly eating at the Bears Den, a restaurant just outside Calgary. Well, now, this most-wanted man has been captured. And it's thanks to some maraschino cherries and the detective work of the owner of the Bears Den. We reached Scott Winograd in Bears Paw, Alberta.

CO: Scott, what was your first impression of Joseph Stroup — a.k.a Joop Cousteau — when he first started hanging around your restaurant?

SCOTT WINOGRAD: Well, I thought I was in the company of royalty almost. The guy seemed to be very charming. But, of course, he was also professing that he was top of his class from Oxford medical school. He was also a Google executive — vice-president no less. And his stories just seemed to be incredibly grandiose and more and more every time I talked to him. One day, he was a trauma surgeon and next day, he was a neurosurgeon. He was a cardiologist in there at one point I think as well.

CO: And what did you and your staff think about him?

SW: Well, I saw through him right away. But he was very charming. My staff thought he was very pleasant. He was a OK tipper. He wasn't an over-tipper; he wasn't he wasn't chintzy at the same time. He didn't really stand out in that terms, but that's the only thing he didn't stand out. Because you know he went by an alias named Joop Cousteau. You’d think you’d go with John Smith if you're going to be an alias at all.

CO: So at what point — what’s the incident — that got you suspicious about him?

SW: He was just a guest; I didn't really know him from Adam. Until one day he came in and out of the blue, he ordered a Cherry Coke, which is odd in this day and age. But he was adamant that he wanted eight maraschino cherries in his Cherry Coke. And, of course, we're a restaurant that aims to please, so my server did that: put eight maraschino cherries in his Cherry Coke. And sure enough, about ten minutes later, he called the server and he said that he bet on a maraschino cherry pit, and it broke a bunch of dental work. And he has sixty-five-thousand-dollars’ worth of dental work he was insisting. And he broke his dental work on this maraschino cherry pit that he was holding up.

CO: Wait a second I don't think maraschino cherries have pits, do they?

SW: I don't even know if they’re food, to be honest. They are full of red dye, and they somewhat resemble a cherry. But yeah, they don't have pits at all. They come to us to serve for children and such. And I've never in my 30 years had a Maraschino pit at all, so lots of red flags there, and my body senses were certainly up at that stage.

CO: And what did you do about that?

SW: Well, nothing at first. I let my supervisor take care of that particular incident. The next day though this gentleman came in with some dental forms outlining the damage that occurred with his dental work from this supposed maraschino cherry pit. And I went through the paperwork, and looked at it, and you know it looked like someone downloaded these forms off of the internet; they didn't look legitimate. But his name was on there, and I didn't know his name at this stage. So now I knew his name; his name was Joop Cousteau. So I Googled his name because I thought there can’t be too many of those people in the world. And the first thing I came across was a Facebook page with this most-wanted poster with this person that I talked to the day before. But the picture was about 20 years old. I thought that that's him; I couldn’t believe it.

CO: These are wanted posters coming from Department of Justice in the US. What was he wanted for?

SW: Well, he was America's most wanted deadbeat dad. He owed over six-hundred-thousand-dollars in child care payments, which he’d skipped out on since 1996 I believe. So he'd been on the lam for about 20 years, as it turns out. And he was the most-wanted. Not one of them not the ten most-wanted — he was the most wanted deadbeat dad in America, apparently as it turns out. So I wasn't 100 percent convinced at this stage yet that it was him; I wanted to study the picture more, and I wanted to meet him again. So I called Joop Cousteau and invited him in for dinner that night. I said well, let's talk about your dental work. Of course, he came in because I realized he was trying to shake me down for money. And he came in for dinner, and he was very charming and gracious, and I was able to have a good chat with him was from about a foot away and study his face. And I at that point, I’d memorized the picture of the most-wanted poster. And I studied his face and confirmed in my mind that yes this is definitely the guy; the height is right, the age is right, the nose is right, the mustache, everything. It‘s him! And I made sure that we got them to stand in certain places in the restaurant so I could get good surveillance photos of them and such. And that night, I called the RCMP, and said I think this guy is coming to my restaurant, and I think he's setting me up shake me down for money for this supposed dental work.

CO: Did you tell the RCMP that he is also the most-wanted deadbeat dad in America?

SW: I did, I sent all that information to them. They didn't want to act on it right away. They didn't know what they could really do at this stage. But I was also concerned about my business; I didn't want to be in a position where someone's trying to shake me down for money. So I called the inspector general's office in the States and left a message. And within an hour, I had a call from the FBI, the U.S. Marshals, and the inspector general's office, and they wanted this guy bad. And, as it turns out, they picked him up last week and extradited them to the United States.

CO: You spoke with his son at some point, is that right?

SW: Yeah, that's right. So the Facebook page that first alerted me to who this guy is I was set up by his son. He has four children that he abandoned back in the ‘90s. And one of his sons said this page up to try to catch him; they don't want anything to do with them. This was some closure, which is you know that's the good thing about all this is that there is a family that can finally get some closure in her life, knowing that their father, who’s reaped havoc throughout North America, screwing people over all over the place, he's finally apprehended, and they can finally move on with their lives. Wonderful family; the son has called me numerous times over the last few weeks.

CO: What do they think of his maraschino cherry pit scam?

SW: They think it's quite ironic that he goes down over a maraschino cherry; over this tiny, little scam trying to pull out a restaurant. They think it's quite fitting that this is how he ends up getting busted.

CO: Good work, Scott.

SW: Oh, thanks.

CO: Thank you. Bye bye.

SW: Bye bye.

JD: Scott Winograd is the owner of the Bears Den restaurant in Bears Paw, Alberta. And Joseph Stroup will stand trial on charges that he avoided paying child support.

Back To Top »

Part two: Oxfam hearing, Arthur Black obit, Trudeau: Wardrobe

Oxfam hearing

Guest: Pauline Latham

JD: How many times can you say you're sorry? At a hearing in front of British MP's earlier this week, the head of the charity Oxfam went for the world-record. Mark Goldring apologized for the actions of the organization's staff in Haiti, who have been accused of paying for sex with vulnerable and underage girls. He also apologized for not reporting the crimes to Haitian authorities. And then he apologized for comments he made last week downplaying the seriousness of the allegations. Pauline Latham is a Conservative MP on the international development committee. We reached her in London.

CO: Ms. Latham, you heard a very contrite Oxfam chief executive Mark Goldring. Do you take him at his word that the organization is now committed to rooting out sexual abuse?

PAULINE LATHAM: No, I'm still very concerned about it. He did apologize numerous times, but it needs more than apologies. It needs people to actually get to grips with the organization. And I don't honestly think that I know how to do it.

CO: We have had the senior people of Oxfam on our show as well. And they have said similar things; they've apologized and said this is some bad apples. And they've found them, and they're going to get rid of them. But it's isolated issues. What do you make of that? Do you think it's so isolated in Oxfam, or any other aid agency?

PL: No, I think there's more to this whole business than meets the eye. I do believe that it is the minority of men who work for Oxfam. But they employ thousands and thousands of people, so even a minority is quite a lot of people. And, of course, the men feel they're in positions of power. And the problem with that is they feel they can do anything they like. And I'm concerned that Oxfam itself does not know how to tackle the problem, and doesn't have the right procedures in place with the current leadership. And that's why I think that the current leadership should go, and we should get somebody in there who can sort it out.

CO: This would include Mark Goldring, the man who spoke yesterday?

PL: Absolutely, definitely, yes, I was not convinced by what he said. I just feel that it needs to clear out because it seems to be that different organisations — and Oxfam aren’t the only NGO who are affected — they seem to allow people to resign or go quietly, and then they go on to another position of power in another NGO.

CO: This story began with one individual who had been head of mission in Haiti for Oxfam just after the earthquake. And it was discovered that not only were there allegations that he had taken the services of prostitutes — some of them underage girls — but that he had also had similar complaints in other places that had been passed on. But the original man who was at the source of this said that he had consensual sex with somebody in Haiti. Can you have consensual sex when you are head of a mission in a place like Haiti after an earthquake?

PL: Well, I certainly don't think you should do. I think you should be looking out to make sure you don't. I mean he's also talked about buying in prostitutes. Now these girls were not really prostitutes. They just had an earthquake; they were desperate. They needed aid, and he was the source to get aid. And he was prepared to sleep with them in order to be able to give them aid. And they had to sell their bodies to make sure their families — what families had left — could eat and could have some shelter. And I think that’s despicable because you're preying on the most vulnerable in the world. And they’re the people that won't give money to charities to able to fund to help for those very vulnerable women and girls.

CO: I don't know how you fix it because we've seen in other situations, in schools, for instance, predators and abusers aren't just there, but they can be attracted to a place where they can get this kind of access. How do you prevent that from happening? How do you fix this?

PL: I think we need a real stringent form of register that every person in aid registers with the central body — and I'd be very happy for it to be the Department for International Development here. And every organization around the world checks up against whether they’re clear or not clear. See, the trouble is they’re allowed to resign before any investigation has been completed. And then they go and get a job somewhere else. Now that's got to stop; we cannot allow that to happen. So if there's an investigation going on, we need a registry of investigations that haven't been completed. Maybe it will change the culture of these predatory men that I do believe are attracted into the different organizations that are giving aid because they know they're going to come across the most vulnerable girls and women in the world.

CO: Oxfam said in the hearings that you were part of that has already lost thousands of donors in the United Kingdom since the scandal broke. Other countries are probably feeling the same concerns among donors. Do you think Oxfam can recover from this?

PL: Well, it's very easy to lose a reputation, and it takes years to build a reputation. So I think they're going to struggle unless they have a clear-out at the top of the leadership, I don't think they've got any chance whatsoever. So they need to move on; they need to get somebody who is trusted by the world to be able to run a charity like that. And that won't be easy to do, but they have to come in and prove that they are trustworthy. Otherwise, Oxfam as organization will go.

CO: But yet, we heard Oxfam's chief executive Mark Goldring again. He said before your hearings, he said, “We’re being treated as though we murdered babies in their cots.” unquote. He seems to be on the defensive there.

PL: He's on the defensive because he knows they've completely messed up. And, actually, that’s the most stupid thing to say because he's not the victim; the young girls and women are the victims. And it's no-good people in these organizations treating women and young girls like trinkets that they can take and then discard. It's just not fair for the most vulnerable women in the world. And he has regretted saying that. Well, yes, he should regret saying it because it's an appalling thing to say. Does he not think what has happened is just awful, and he obviously doesn’t?

CO: Should he resign?

PL: Yes, definitely. I feel he should resign, and so should the lady whose name I can't remember who is on the governance side.

CO: Winnie Byanyima.

PL: Yeah, they should both go.

CO: We spoke with her the other day. Ms. Latham, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

PL: Thanks very much.

JD: Pauline Latham is a UK Conservative MP. We reached her in London. And late today, Haiti suspended Oxfam's operations in that country while the government investigates alleged abuses by workers with the UK arm of the charity. For more on this story, go to our webpage: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Post rock]

Arthur Black obit

JD: CBC Radio is saying a final goodbye to one of its best-loved hosts. Arthur Black, the author, humorist and host of “Basic Black” died yesterday on Salt Spring Island. He was 74-years-old. Mr. Black joined the CBC in 1972, but he'd done a lot of things before becoming a broadcaster. He sold encyclopaedias door-to-door, he was a deckhand on an oil tanker, he wrangled cows, he was a sheet metal apprentice, and a plumber's assistant. And he just kept adding to that list as he explored and found new ways to delight listeners on CBC Radio. His fans will remember him as a wry but generous interviewer, a hum detective extraordinaire, and an all-round connoisseur of the absurd. First and foremost, though, he was a writer. Every episode of “Basic Black” was tied together with Arthur Black's words. That included the final show. It was taped in June of 2002, in front of a live audience in Thunder Bay, where Arthur Black's career began. He closed the show by thanking the audience, thanking his colleagues and crew. But he saved his final thanks for Mrs. Albrecht.

SOUNDCLIP

ARTHUR BLACK: Mrs. Albrecht came into my life more than twenty years ago — the very first year I worked for CBC here in Thunder Bay. Now for folks who don't live in Northwestern Ontario, I should explain that CBC in Thunder Bay serves a vast region: all of northwestern Ontario. Look it up on your map sometime. And the way it does it is by hopscotching a radio signal to a series of transmitters located in various northwestern Ontario towns — towns like Hornehayne and Geraldton, and Red Lake, and Manitouwadge — and that's how I met Mrs. Albrecht. What happened was the station manager at CBQ — CBC here — Doug Ward, he gave me a week off to drive around to all our transmitter towns to actually see the folks in the communities that I was broadcasting to. So I climbed into the CBQ station wagon, and I hit the road. And one of the stops I made was a hard rock mining town called Manitouwadge. It's not easy to visit Manitouwadge. First, you have to travel the Trans-Canada till you get to the absolute upper eyebrow of Lake Superior. Then, you have to point the hood ornament of your vehicle due north. Then, you don't stop driving till you run at a road. And then, you're in Manitouwadge. When I got to Manitouwadge, I picked up a ghost. It manifested in the form of phone messages. I bought some gas, and the guy at the pump said you're supposed to phone Mrs. Albrecht. I stopped for coffee; the waitress said Mrs. Albrecht wants to get in touch with you. When I got to my motel, there was a pink message slips sitting on my table: “Mrs. Albrecht called” it said. So I phoned the number on the pink slip. A demure voice with a slight, indefinable European accent invited me to a Manitouwadge address for tea. When I got there, I met a modest-looking, middle-aged woman who ushered me into a dark living room dominated by a huge portable radio — a ghetto blaster before there were ghetto blasters. And all around this radio were ranged these tottering tiers of cassette tapes. While Mrs. Albrecht repaired to the kitchen to make tea, I snooped, and all the cassettes bore white stickers with notations in ballpoint that said things like “Gzowski, April 3^rd, ‘75”. And “Gabereau, March 17^th, ’75.” Near as I could deduce, Mrs. Albrecht spent much of her days taping CBC programs. And when she told me her story, I understood why. Two years earlier, Mrs. Albrecht had been a choreographer for the National Theatre in Geneva, Switzerland. Her husband had been a set designer for the same employer. In one of those cruel poker hands that sometimes gets dealt, both Mrs. Albrecht and her husband were laid off from their jobs at the same time. Her husband was the optimistic type. “That’s OK,” he said. “I have a friend in Canada in a place called Manitouwadge.” And so incredibly, they came — the Albrechts — from a glittering, cosmopolitan hub of the European theatre scene to a hard rock mining town in northwestern Ontario. There are. Relatively few National Theatre openings in Manitouwadge, and the Albrechts didn't have the dough to get back to Switzerland. Her husband took a job at the mine. Mrs. Albrecht began looking for what… cultural solace I suppose? Well, that sounds highfalutin, and I'm not even sure what it means. What I remember is Mrs. Albrecht looking at me with those cool, green, infinitely said Ingrid Bergman eyes, and saying quite matter-of-factly, “CBC Radio has saved my life.” Well, to tell you that kind of scared me because I'd never thought of myself as being in the life-saving business. But in the end, it gave me a kind of a weird focus for the job. And ever since, whenever I've switched on a microphone, I've tried to imagine myself back in that dim, darkened Manitouwadge living room, attempting to bring at least a faint smile to Mrs. Albrecht's face. Got a Hollywood ending to this too: a couple of years ago, literally decades after my encounter with Mrs. Albrecht in Manitouwadge, I received a letter from her. She was still here, still listening to the CBC, still taping the bit she especially liked, and she sounded a whole lot happier than she had when I first met her. Well, that's a long-winded way of saying I'm thankful that the CBC gave me the opportunity to meet Mrs. Albrecht. I'm thankful that I got to meet all of you once a week for so many years. I hope I brought a smile to your face half as often as your cards, and your letters, and your phone calls, and your e-mails brought a smile to mine. I still don't believe I got that incredible privilege and a paycheck. All I can say is it's been a hell of a ride, so long, God bless, and good night Mrs. Albrecht — wherever you are.

JD: That was Arthur Black from the final show of his CBC Radio program “Basic Black”. That’s from back in 2002. Arthur Black died yesterday on Saltspring Island; he had been blogging about his diagnosis with pancreatic cancer. He was 74-years-old.

[Music: Ambient]

Trudeau wardrobe

Guest: Shivam Vij

JD: As you heard earlier on in the program, Justin Trudeau's trip to India has not gone quite as smoothly as his handlers might have hoped. But it isn't just the attempted murderer who's been invited — and then un-invited — to a reception. Canada's Prime Minister has also been taking some heat for his uniquely Indian choice of clothing. Then there's the namaste hand sign that Prime Minister Trudeau and his family seem so keen to flash for the photographers. Shivam Vij is a freelance journalist. We reached him in Delhi.

CO: Shivam, what's our prime minister wearing today in India?

SHIVAM VIJ: Well, he wore some fancy dress up the other. I think it was a kind of sherwani with something around his neck.

CO: And what are some of the other clothing outfits he and his family have been wearing? Can you describe some of them?

SV: Well, essentially, they have been wearing a lot of clothes that people would wear during a long Indian wedding. Some days, he was wearing some kind of golden sherwani of the sort I would wear only if I was getting matted. So he’s looking a bit over-the-top. His wife has been wearing lovely saris. But overall, they've been dressed as though they were attending a long wedding.

CO: And the children, what are they wearing?

SV: Similarly, they’ve been playing the part in his costume business. It looks cute, sure, but since he's doing it every day, he's looking ridiculously overdressed.

CO: I understand he's also wearing traditional Mojari shoes?

SV: Yes, traditional meaning you know we don't wear those kind of shoes every day; I'm wearing some Sketchers shoes right now, you know? It seems they’re desperate to show that he's quote/unquote “celebrating Indian culture”. He landed in the airport, and he had coverd his head right at the airport. And people were like hey guys, chill. The Golden Temple is not at the airport.

CO: You mentioned the Golden Temple picture, which is quite striking of them. during the namaste greetings, their palms pressed together.

SV: Right, he’s been doing the namaste greeting a lot. He did the namaste greeting right the airplane, even before he put his foot on Indian soil. Maybe the namaste greeting is making up for the lack of Modi because Narendra Modi hasn't met him yet; he did not go to the airport to receive him like he does for a lot of visiting dignitaries.

CO: The prime minister of India has not met him yet?

SV: No, he's meeting him tomorrow morning — 11:00 a.m.

CO: There's another picture of Prime Minister Trudeau wearing what appears to be a very traditional Indian groom costume; it’s in the maroon color I think, and he's outside of a Hindu temple. He appears to be wearing a wedding necklace as well.

SV: Which is ridiculous because you don't go to a temple looking like a groom, you know?

CO: How are people in India responding to these clothes?

SV: Well, we are all amused. We don't mind; there’s nothing offensive about it. But we all amused because he’s so overdoing it, so or what dressing it. So it seems like he's on an exotic holiday. It’s the sort of stuff when lots of people in the West want to come and enjoy an Indian wedding experience. He seems to be doing that. So we are all amused. But perhaps he's receiving excessive criticism for that because also his trip has become controversial with the Indian government not happy with some of the positions the Canadian government has been taking. So overall, everything is going negative, even his dressing.

CO: He's had some meetings with people like Bollywood movie stars and whatnot. And how are people who he's meeting with how are they dressed? Are they trying to make him feel comfortable by wearing the same clothes?

SV: Not at all. People are dressed as they are. I mean Bollywood stars tend to dress well, but they're not looking overdressed. In fact, in particular, when he was meeting Bollywood stars, that was the worst dress Prime Minister Trudeau was wearing because it was over-the-top even if he was getting married. People have been wondering which Bollywood movie he would fit in? And there are not many.

CO: So people are having fun. Is there are a lot of funny things being written in the Indian media about this?

SV: More than the media, social media is having a lot of fun; there are a lot of memes going around it, people are giving him style tips. So on social media, in particular, they’re having a lot of fun. Justin Trudeau is known for producing good visuals. And we find it also amusing because our Prime Minister Narendra Modi does the same. So we are wondering if he's trying to do a Modi of Modi? And, in fact, some people are going to the extent of saying maybe this is why Modi is upset with him?

CO: because he's being upstaged by the clothes?

SV: Absolutely.

CO: Is anyone defending our prime minister over there?

SV: Not at all. Not at all. In fact, I wrote something today defending him saying hello, maybe he's doing it for the domestic audience. Maybe his is trying to show the immigrant voters in Canada that he's celebrating Indian culture.

CO: What kind of response did you get?

SV: Well, people were not very impressed. You know this whole thing about Justin Trudeau being so handsome has been overtaken by hello, what's with the clothing?

CO: I guess I'm old enough to remember his dad, Pierre Trudeau, and his mum, margaret, who were very, very flamboyant, theatrical people themselves. Their clothing was talked about in the same way. Perhaps Justin Trudeau is just being himself.

SV: Maybe yes, because you know I looked up and he does go around in a firefighter jacket when he has to meet firefighters. He dresses up the part on Halloween. He wears South Indian dress on a South Indian festival in Canada. So that's the point. I mean maybe he's not doing something extra in India this is how he is. And funnily, that's also how our Prime Minister Narendra Modi is.

CO: What do you think it's going to look like tomorrow when the two of them meet and have to compete for the better wardrobe?

SV: Well, I hope he's only wear a formal suit tomorrow because if he's going to overshadow Modi, Modi’s not going to be happy. It's not going to be good for India-Canada relations if he is going to overshadow Modi in the fancy costume bit because Modi’s very particular about producing good photographs, and so is Trudeau. This is going to be a contest of two politicians who excel in wearing the right dress, producing the right visuals.

CO: Sounds like a costume party.

SV: Absolutely. Sounds like a good costume party with some Khalistanis spoiling it.

CO: Thanks so much.

SV: Lovely talking to you, Carol. Thank you.

CO: Bye bye.

JD: Shivam Vij is a freelance journalist. We reached him in Delhi. And if you want to see photographs of our PM's sartorial choices during this trip to India, visit our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

Back To Top »

Part three: Penguin study, Mayor of Richmond Row obit, “Meet me at McDonald’s” haircut

Howard McCurdy obit

JD: Howard McCurdy was a trailblazer in many ways. He was a scientist and a civil rights activist. He also made history, becoming the second black person to become a Member of Parliament. Howard McCurdy —former Windsor MP — died on Tuesday. He was 85-years-old. Mr. McCurdy served as a New Democrat MP in the 1980s and ‘90s. Before entering politics, he was a well-known activist. He fought against racial discrimination in his hometown and across the country. But despite his achievements, Mr. McCurdy still faced challenges — just for being who he was. He was on As It Happens back in 1991, after another MP used a racial slur directed at him in the House of Commons. And that remark came not long after a sexist remark was slung at another MP. Here is Mr. McCurdy speaking with host Michael Enright.

[sc]

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Have you been subjected to racist remarks before? Epithets ,or taunts, or shouts?

HOWARD MCCURDY: No.

ME: You haven't?

HM: No, no. There were a couple of incidents that I only vaguely recollect were some other members were the subject of racial epithets. But I have from the House of Commons are quite compatible place.

ME: Up until recently, as you say.

HM: Up until up until recently, when became blessed with really extraordinary sexist remarks. And one of the things that should be understood in all of this the prime minister responding to Audrey McLaughlin today made remarks that indicated that he doesn't appreciate the difference between personal insults, which are going to be there. And insults which are aimed at groups which are components of the mosaic of this country. The Parliament of Canada is supposed to symbolize the nature of Canada. It's supposed to be a unifying force. It is the chief democratic institution in this country. And when a member of parliament insults a group, a race, a nationality, a language group, women, this is far more significant than an individual insult. It reflects on the very nature of the parliament itself and what it means to Canada. And I think a most unfortunate that Harvey Andre and the prime minister and what they said that they seem not to understand that distinction. And I think that that the people of Canada expect them to. Just as they expect us to improve our decorum. Just as they expect us not to engage in gross language. I think that they also expect us to understand that there is a substantial difference between insults aimed at groups and insults aimed at individuals.

JD: That was former NDP MP Howard McCurdy speaking with former As It Happens host Michael Enright in 1991. Howard McCurdy died on Tuesday. He was 85-years-old.

[Music: Piano]

Penguin study]

Guest: Hannah Kriesell

JD: It's easy to tell King penguins from other birds; penguins are the ones in the tuxes. But distinguishing between the male and the female of that species is an entirely different story, or has been until now. Researchers at the Centre Scientifique de Monaco realized they just have to listen — just listen to the sounds the birds make when they communicate. Their findings can be found in the journal Ibis. Hannah Kriesell is the lead author of this study. We reached her in Cote d'Azur.

CO: Ms. Kriesell, first of all, how difficult is it to tell the difference between male and female King penguins?

HANNAH KRIESELL: So for us humans, it is very difficult to assess the sex of King penguins visually because they look very much like; they're one of monomorphic seabirds. So males and females look the same; they both have ornaments and coloured patches. And so it's really difficult for us to tell them apart also because there's no difference in size really.

CO: and you can't see their genitals?

HK: No, you can't.

CO: Because they're underneath them?

HK: Yes, so basically there have been attempts to tell the sexes apart by cloacal inspection, but it's not that easy, and it's very invasive.

CO: Yes, I would think so. If you're looking at a crowd of King penguins, you don't know who the females and who the males are; they all look alike.

HK: Yeah, so in groups, it's more difficult if you have a couple or potentially a couple. You might have a clue from behavioral observations and from the size because females tend to be smaller. But you cannot be 100 per cent sure.

CO: So scientists who study penguins, how do they distinguish the males and females when you need to do that?

HK: Usually, it's done by sampling blood. So a tiny bit of a blood is taken from the flipper vein. And then the sex is determined molecularly in the lab.

CO: But that's a lot of work.

HK: That is a lot of work. And it's also, again, quite invasive because you need to capture the bird. Sometimes, it's necessary in any case to do other measurements. But if it can be avoided, it's better.

CO: What other measurements?

HK: So, for example, we do morphological measurements, which we also used in our study.

CO: What does that mean?

HK: So we take measurements, for example, off the beak and the flipper and the feet. And with those measurements, we can calculate the structural size index. And if we also have the weight of the bird, we can determine the so-called body condition index. So we can see what kind of condition the bird is in, and that's important for many studies.

CO: Now you've actually found you think a non-intrusive way to tell them apart — this is what your study is talking about. What is it that you've done?

HK: So basically what we noticed, first of all, is that males and females both vocalize, which is not necessarily the case for all birds. And that they both produce vocalizations that are pretty similar. Not like, for example, in songbirds where you have a male with a very elaborate song and a female that produces very simple calls. And then we wanted to find out whether sex is actually encoded in those calls? And what we did for that was we did acoustic recordings of several individuals. And, of course, in order to verify any potential results of this study, we had to also capture them and take blood samples in order to verify the sex of our study birds.

CO: Let's have a listen to some of the recordings you made.

SOUNDCLIP

[A couple field recordings of birds]

CO: OK, what are we listening to?

HK: So the first was a female and the second one was a male. And actually, in the background of the male, you could hear the very-high pitched whistle of a chick.

CO: Wow! Let’s just hear them again.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Birds!]

CO: That's great! But she's got quite the trumpet sound.

HK: Yes, so they're not really different in their amplitude — their calling amplitude — but they also need to be quite loud because they live in a colony amongst thousands of other birds. So if they want to be heard, they need to be loud.

CO: How sure are you that that's a sound not just that they happen to be making in this occasion, and that it’s a sound that that sort of exclusive to females and exclusive to male penguins?

HK: So, of course, in our study, we are quite careful with our finding. And in order to be a bit more sure about our results, we also recorded King penguins at another King penguin colony several hundred kilometres away from our study colony. And we found the exact same pattern.

CO: Do you know what they are trying to say?

HK: Well, this is this is part of a bigger study that I'm currently working on. So I'm pretty sure that sex is one of the information encoded. And we're also looking at, for example, if they convey information about their age.

CO: So what might they be communicating then?

HK: So because they produce those calls in the context of mate choice, it might be information about their quality — their fitness — in terms of potential breeding partner. And those calls are also produced when they are looking for their partner, or for their offspring.

CO: Do you think they're saying it's your turn to take care of the kids?

HK: Yes, pretty much. Yeah, exactly.

CO: Ms. Kriesell, it's lovely to talk to you. thank you.

HK: Thank you very much.

JD: Hannah Kriesell is a PhD student at the Centre Scientifique de Monaco. We reached her though in the Cote d’Azur.

[Music: Pop]

Harassment comment

JD: This week, Newfoundland television reporter Heather Gillis has had the star role in a story she didn't want to be in at all. On Tuesday, we heard from Ms. Gillis after a judge ruled that the man who yelled "F her right in the P" at her while she was working, did not commit a crime. The judge agreed that the event was emotionally disturbing for Ms. Gillis, but he ruled it did not disturb the peace at the dump where the reporter was conducting her interview. Newfoundlanders are now debating whether the judge made the right call. It's a conversation Dwan Street has waded into. Ms. Street is with the Fish, Food and Allied Workers Union in St. John's. She prepared this commentary for CBC Radio.

SOUNDCLIP

DWAN STREET: Just this week, as I was sitting in a meeting that was my workplace, a man who was not a co-worker slid into the seat next to me and whispered I'm some glad I don't work in the office with you. Why? Because you would be saying “me too”. In my workplace — in a professional meeting — he felt it was appropriate to crack a joke that insinuated if he worked in close vicinity to me, he would sexually assault me. I've been told there will be bloodshed by a man who was spitting in my face in a meeting. I've had a fist cocked in my face. Been asked in a meeting if I was there to cook dinner? And have had advances made to grab my crotch when I walked by to get a coffee; the list goes on. Here's a newsflash: This is not okay, Bois; not okay. Heather Gillis, you, I, everyone who gets up and breathes the damn air in the morning have a right to go to work, feel safe, and do our jobs. We deserve to continue through our days feeling accomplished not violated. The misogyny, violence, and just plain juvenile actions of men who for whatever reason feel a pump in their own masculinity by making us feel inferior — like sexual objects. This stops now. For every person who hears this commentary and thinks it was harmless fun, or take a joke. I guarantee you I can take a joke. And I can make one with the best of them. This is not about that. It is about having respect for other human beings. Treating them like humans, not sex toys. Grow up! And if you cannot, keep your little boy commentary inside your own head and pants.

JD: That's part of a commentary for CBC Radio Newfoundland and Labrador by Dwan Street. Ms. Street works for the Fish, Food and Allied Workers Union in St. John's.

[Music: Indie rock]

Richmond Row obit

Guest: Jason Rip

JD: In London, Ontario, there's an area known as Richmond Row. It's a busy downtown street where university students and residents frequent the shops and restaurants. And In the middle of it all, you would find Roy McDonald. Mr. McDonald would stand on the sidewalk outside a bar. Sometimes he would recite poetry — his own — or just engage in conversation with whoever was passing by. He’d also sing.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A man singing “Piano Man” by Billy Joel]

JD: It was his presence on that London, Ontario strip that earned Roy McDonald the nickname, "Mayor of Richmond Row." Mr. McDonald died recently. He was 80-years-old. Jason Rip was a friend. He's also the playwright who wrote "Beard: A Few Moments in the life of Roy McDonald." We reached Mr. Rip in London.

CO: Jason, first of all, I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.

JASON RIP: Oh, thank you very much.

CO: We just heard a bit of Roy McDonald singing on the streets of London, he was quite a character on those streets, wasn't he? What did he represent in London? What did people think of him?

JR: Where do we even start? I think he was sort of a human symbol of London. He's somebody that people always remembered and always associated with London. And if you hadn't actually met him then you knew of him. Really, he's probably the most recognisable Londoner; I can't think of anyone who even compares.

CO: Well, it doesn't really say much, does it? Because London is fairly homogenous-looking. And I remember seeing him all the time. He would stand out anywhere, but especially in London; he was quite an eccentric-looking character, wasn't he?

JR: Yeah, if people don't have a visual, he had a very long, Gandalf-beard, he tended to dress in a tweed jacket with probably a hundred buttons on it, and then he carried around two big satchels that were sort of duct-taped shut full of his papers and his poems and books he was reading — that was the image of Roy.

CO: Not just the books that he was reading — the books that he had published. And this is something that people perhaps didn't know very much about is that he wrote and published poetry. And he often sold it to people on the streets, or in places where they'd meet him, isn't that right?

JR: Yeah, that was his livelihood for many, many years is whatever little he could get from the sale of those two books. One was called “The Answer Question”. It was like a long pun poem he called it. And one was called “Living: A London Journal”, which was just a complete account of a week in his life that he wrote down every thoughts and everything he did.

CO: I remember seeing him even years ago, and this is before his beard was white it. He was still looked like that, but much younger. And always on the streets — very eccentric character — very friendly, but always a mystery. No one really knew much about him. A lot of stories about him, but no one really knew him?

JR: Yeah, there's several out-and-out urban legends about Roy. And they run quite a large range: from being homeless to being a millionaire who has all of his money buried in the backyard. There's all kinds of urban legends about Roy.

CO: Well, who was he really?

JR: He was a man who lived life according to his own terms. One thing I've been talking about over the last couple of days is how he only ever had one house. When he was a child, he was in the same house. And he was found in the same house, and, again, that that alone is an exceptional thing to only ever have one house.

CO: What else can you tell us about him?

JR: You know having talked to him, and having known him for 20 years, I know that he considered himself primarily to be a philosopher and a poet. But I think he was more of a conversationalist. I think he was sort of the greeter for the City of London in the sense that he introduced many, many people to each other in the artistic community. He was a very consistent booster of the artistic community. He was at every art opening and a lot of plays. He was a regular presence in all the different artistic things that were happening in the city. So I think he was he was a conversationalist. He was somebody that would talk to people from all walks of life. He knew everybody from the mayor to the homeless people; he knew everybody.

CO: I understand even his earlier life. I mean he was always regarded as a bit of a hippie in London in the 1970s. But before that, he was I believe in the States at some point, he marched along with Martin Luther King Jr., he went to Woodstock during the festival, didn't he?

JR: Yeah, there’s a lot of there's a lot of past glory in Roy's life. Yeah, Martin Luther King; he was at the big march in Washington. He was at Woodstock, and he had an asthma attack, and had to be carted out of there apparently. But my favorite Woodstock story for Roy is that he wore a three-piece suit to Woodstock because he was looking to meet a girl. And he thought that she would recognize him because of the suit.

CO: Because he was always alone; you never saw him with anyone. Did he have a relationship? Did he have a mate?

JR: He was he was engaged at one point. We're going decades back, but the one point, I think he had a lost love in the past for sure. It's in the play.

CO: OK. So you decided at some point to write a play about him. How did he feel about it?

JR: He really seemed to enjoy it. We did butt heads a little bit during the original writing of it because writing about a living person who's actually going to read how you represent them is quite challenging. And there were certain things that I put in his mouth that he didn't like. So I ended up having to take him out because you know who could be a better authority than the actual subject of the play to tell you what they would say and what they wouldn't say?

CO: Did he take part in the actual stage production at all?

JR: He did. It was a kind of a gimmick I ripped off from the Tina Turner biopic. Angela Bassett turns into Tina Turner at the end — to the actual Tina Turner. And I thought I'm just going to use that. So I had the actor who was playing Roy turn into Roy McDonald himself at the end. And they both sand “My Way” by Frank Sinatra.

CO: What's it going to be like not having Roy McDonald on the streets of London, especially in Richmond Row as it's now called?

JR: Oh, he's irreplaceable. If I get myself together, I'm going to try to put together a campaign to erect a statue to put right where he was because he wanted that. He always talked about how he would like that.

CO: What's your best memory of him?

JR: I think opening night of the first version of “Beard”, when he actually gave me a hug. Neither of us are hugging kind of guys. So that's what I'm remembering.

CO: Jason, thanks for telling us about Roy McDonald.

JR: OK, thank you very much.

JD: Jason Rip is a playwright and a friend of Roy McDonald. The London, Ontario fixture was known as the "mayor of Richmond Row” was found dead in his home this week. Roy McDonald was 80-years-old.

[Music: Wind chimes and flute]

“Meet me at McDonald’s” haircut

Guest: Matty Barber

JD: The lads’ haircuts are out of control in Great Yarmouth, U.K. They're so alarming that a headmaster at a high school there sent a letter home, reminding students and their parents what an inappropriate hairdo looks like. "Hair that is teased to give excessive height" — that's a no-no. So are overgrown, heavy fringes. And then, there is the biggest offender. Quote, "Variations on the style often known as 'Meet me at McDonalds.'" Lost… so lost. Matty Barber is a local barber. He is familiar with the cut. We reached him in Norwich.

CO: Matty, what on earth does a “Meet me at McDonald's” haircut look like?

MATTY BARBER: Well, a distinctive top. Like the top of the haircut is like kind of a perm.

CO: The top is a big mop of hair permed- it’s like very curly?

MB: Yeah, yeah.

CO: And the sides are shaved, and the back is shaved?

MB: Yeah, the sides and back are shaved.

CO: Ok. why is it called a “Meet me at McDonald's”?

MB: I don’t get that phrase too well. I know that the audience at McDonald’s in Norwhich is quite young audience. So a lot of young kids at the minute have a haircut which is you know similar to one I've just described there. That is like the most common sort of haircut. And there’s a rapper from Blackpool in the UK called Little T, he’s quite an iconic figurehead for young kids I think.

CO: And he and he's the guy that inspired this look — the Little T?

MB: He seems to. He just calls it the “Little T Haircut”.

CO: When the young folks come into your barbershop, do they say give me a “Meet me at McDonalds”.

MB: No, Just a shave that’s faded and then just kept long on top. Don’t touch the top pretty much

CO: Do you do the perms on top, or do they go someplace else for that?

MB: No, I think they go to a hairdresser at a womens’ salon to get that done.

CO: Okay, so the young guys come in, they get you to shave their head, they have this big mop at the top, and then they get it permed?

Mb: Yeah, yeah, they get it permed.

CO: When did you first hear about this being called the “Meet me at McDonalds”?

MB: Probably the first couple of months. I had a couple of mates sort of joking around and laughing about it. And yeah, just walking into the actual McDonald’s itself actually I see it around.

CO: Okay, but there's one school that doesn't consider it a joke: the Great Yarmouth Charter Academy. And this is the story now is that they issued a letter sent home to parents to say that the boys couldn't have this “Meet me at McDonald's”. They actually say, “variations in the style often known as ‘Meet me at McDonald's’ is not allowed at the school.”

MB: Really?

CO: Yes.

MB: Wow.

CO: The head teacher, Barry Smith, said that can't have overgrown, heavy fringes brushed forward onto the face. Okay, here's one that you can help us: shaven parting lines. What's that?

MB: It’s the line at the sides of the head, kind of on the corner. And it’s literally just shaved in to sort of make a line so it’s like a kind of pattern sort of thing. It kind of combs up and over to the side slightly on top, and the other side just sort of combs down. It’s quite a sort of smart like business kind of looking haircut I think.

CO: What do you make of this list of forbidden hairstyles? And it’s just for boys; they say the girls they have no problem with this.

MB: I think it’s ridiculous because surely it comes down education at the end of the day. And it's almost like you concentrate on learning and succeeding in school then that’s surely the main thing. Just you know as long as they dress codes, then surely it should be fin. But a haircut shouldn’t be a problem. Not everyone should look the same.

CO: Yeah. Lots of the guys who had those looks in the past, I think they graduated, they had lives. I'm looking at a picture of headmaster Barry Smith, who’s clean-shaven and well-cropped.

MB: Yeah, he is. It's quite a standard-looking, simple haircut. Whatever floats his boat I suppose.

CO: What kind of a haircut do you have?

MB: I have faded back and sides. Very short, so it is quite extreme on the sides. And then a touch quite long.

CO: Where is it long?

MB: On top.

CO: But do you think you're wearing a “Meet me at McDonalds”?

MB: No, I wouldn't call it that. I mean at the top of my hair it's not very big — I just war it forwards; almost more of like “Peaky Blinders” kind of look I would say.

CO: This is the Netflix series about gangsters in Britain in the 1920’s.

MB: It’s not a particularly good hairstyle in the show I don't think, but it's quite standard and simple. It's easy to do as a barber.

CO: Your name is Matty Barber. Did that inspire you to become a barber?

MB: No. It’s a quit funny one really. I wanted to become a football player or something. But your dream kind of falls and goes out the window. I was doing work experience in school, got a Saturday job, ended up getting sort of part-time, and then I was working sort of full-time. It's kind of crazy to how it's come about.

CO: I think you're destined to be a barber maybe.

MB: Yeah, yeah, it seems to be. I'm the only barber with the name Barber.

CO: Matty, it’s lovely to talk to you. Thanks a lot.

MB: No worries. Thank you. Cheers.

CO: Goodnight

CO: Bye

JD: Matty Barber is a barber. We reached him in Norwich UK.

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February 22, 2018 episode transcript

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