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The Current Transcript for February 7, 2018

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: T-plus 30 seconds, if you can hear me over the cheering, Falcon Heavy heading to space on our test flight.

VOICE 2: Vehicle is Super Sonic.

VOICE 1: You heard the call out, Vehicle is Super Sonic.

[Sound: Cheering]

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: When the SpaceX Falcon Heavy roared into the skies yesterday, its mission manager back on the ground was a Canadian. He’s not alone in pursuing a career propelled by propulsion. Students at a variety of Canadian universities excel at competitions around rocket science. But Canada has no major rocket program to keep them here. In fact, as countries as diverse as Romania, Japan, Brazil, and Australia develop their own rockets, critics worry Canada is being left behind and that some of our brightest minds will be launching their careers elsewhere. We'll hear the concerns in a moment. Also today…

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: We as young adults who were born into the reality of the ongoing conflict and not being able to have a say yet about it.

AMT: Israelis and Palestinians under the age of 35 have grown up in the shadow of volatile politics, conflict, and failed peace efforts. For years they've had a lot of the same leaders fighting over the same issues. But if there are those in a new generation who don't think like their leadership, what do they think? In half an hour, we'll hear the opinions of a few Israelis and Palestinians on the conflict they are inheriting. And they say it’s more work, more athletic, and takes half the time.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I love the sport of mixed doubles, so I can't wait to see what it's going to be like to display that in Korea. It's a wild ride that we're on right now [laughs].

AMT: As mixed doubles curling finds its spot at the Olympics, we check in on the excitement around the Canadian duo ready to take it on. But first it really is rocket ccience. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

Back To Top »

Failure to launch: Canada's lack of a rocket program leaves us grounded, say experts

Guests: Jason Davis, Chuck Black, Jeremy Wang

SOUNDCLIP

MANY VOICES: 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

[Sound: Rocket launch]

AMT: Everyone involved seemed to be holding their breath, right down to the last second, but in the end it was a blazing success. Elon Musk’s SpaceX launched its Falcon Heavy rocket yesterday afternoon. After five last-minute delays and a more than two-hour wait, jubilant space enthusiasts couldn't care less. They say the launch has kicked off a new era in space exploration. But some question whether Canada will have a part in that. We’ll get to that. But first to Cape Canaveral, Florida. Jason Davis is a digital editor with Planetary Society, a non-profit space interest group that does education, outreach and advocacy around space flight, and he was on hand for the Falcon Heavy launch yesterday. Hello.

JASON DAVIS: Hello. Thanks for having me.

AMT: You could hear all the cheering in that clip. Describe the scene yesterday when it became clear that this was a real go.

JASON DAVIS: Yeah, we were listening to some of those cheers being broadcast as we were watching it in person. Eventually though we couldn't hear the cheers because the rocket was so loud. I've been to quite a few rocket launches. That was probably the loudest one and the most intense one that I've been to. Although I was never at a space shuttle launch—I've been told they’re a little bit louder. Anyway, it was a beautiful launch. Very clear day. And the rocket lifted right up and kind of seemed to go straight up. We can see it for a long time, really just kind of shook everything around us. You can kind of feel your whole body vibrating from the power of that thing. So it was pretty exciting to see in person.

AMT: And why is Falcon Heavy's launch so significant?

JASON DAVIS: So right now this is the most powerful rocket in the world flying by a factor of three. So the Falcon Heavy can launch about 64 metric tonnes into low Earth orbit. The closest competitor to that is the United States' Delta IV heavy—that can do about 24 metric tonnes. So SpaceX now has a very powerful rocket on hand. Now the reason that you need a rocket that can do such powerful things, or at least the reason that a lot of people are eyeing this, is that when it comes to human space flight it takes a lot of things to keep us alive in space obviously. So all these things are very heavy. That's why when you look back at some of the more ambitious human programs in the past like the moon landings, the Saturn V was this gigantic rocket that NASA built to take humans out to the moon. And it could lift over 100 metric tonnes into low Earth orbit. So that's really what you need for human exploration. You need these really powerful rockets. And NASA's building one right now called the Space Launch System. But it's very expensive and it’s not without its criticisms here in the U.S. and elsewhere.

AMT: What are the costs of...

JASON DAVIS: [Unintelligible]the Falcon Heavy is a commercial alternative to that.

AMT: And what's the difference in cost for what NASA's working on and what Elon Musk's Falcon Heavy figure would be?

JASON DAVIS: So Elon Musk has quoted a price of $90 million per launch for this Falcon Heavy. And then yesterday he said the development for the rocket was about half a billion dollars. Compared to the Space Launch System, NASA spends at least a couple billion on this program per year. And we don't have estimates yet on how much an individual space launch system will cost, but we've heard anything from half a billion to a billion per flight. So it's a huge order of magnitude savings.

AMT: They had three rockets. Two come off. One keeps going. What happened to the two that came back to Earth?

JASON DAVIS: So Elon Musk's SpaceX have been perfecting this technique. Where rather than just throwing their spent rocket stages into the ocean, they fly them back for an upright landing so they can reuse them. Now with the Falcon Heavy, that's three Falcon 9 rockets kind of bolted together in a row. And they want to recover all three. So the two side boosters that dropped off flew all the way back to Cape Canaveral and landed upright and that was a pretty incredible thing to see. The centre booster meanwhile, it was supposed to land on a drone ship out in the ocean. They missed with that when it landed close to the drone ship. They had some problems restarting the engine. That part of the flight was mostly experimental though, so it's pretty still safe to say that this was a big success for them.

AMT: And the portion of the rocket with the Tesla roadster that we've seen in all the pictures with the astronaut dummy and the "Don't Panic" on the drivers thing. Where is it? Where's it going?

JASON DAVIS: Yeah, so they just generally launched it in the direction of Mars. They didn't have a huge plan for it in terms of actually refining its orbit other than just kind of launching it out into the solar system to demonstrate the capabilities of this rocket. So right now it's heading away from Earth. As far as we know they have lost contact with it at this point. The batteries will run dead on the camera views that are coming back. And it will be heading out crossing Mars orbit and going out into the asteroid belt and presumably just be floating around the solar system for quite a long time.

AMT: OK. Well Jason Davis thanks for bringing us up to speed on the actual launch.

JASON DAVIS: Yeah. Thank you for having me.

AMT: Jason Davis, digital editor with Planetary Society. That’s a non-profit space interest group. He's in Cape Canaveral, Florida. Well the SpaceX launch from Cape Canaveral, Florida was a very made-in-the-U.S. feel about it. While Canada does have some accomplishments in space technology innovation—think Canada Arm—there's been little focus on a national rocket program. And that's something my next guess would like to see changed. Chuck Black is publisher of the Commercial Space Media Company. He is also a former director and treasurer of the Canadian Space Commerce Association. He’s in our Toronto studio. Hi.

CHUCK BLACK: Good morning.

AMT: So I'm guessing you watched that.

CHUCK BLACK: I did. I was very impressed particularly when the two side-stages landed together. I thought that was just absolutely wonderful.

AMT: OK. So this really matters in terms of being able to recycle a rocket and the cost.

CHUCK BLACK: Absolutely. If you could land it and use the same rocket over again, it's an order of magnitude cost savings.

AMT: Now we don't have a national rocket program.

CHUCK BLACK: We don't.

AMT: Why not?

CHUCK BLACK: Back in 2010 the Canadian Space Agency explained that they wish to prioritize the budget they were given from the federal government. They wanted the focus primarily on Canadian contributions to the International Space Station and they wanted to focus on the upcoming Radarsat Constellation Launch, which is supposedly occurring later on this year.

AMT: And so what does Canada do when it needs to launch satellites?

CHUCK BLACK: We beg, borrow, steal, or buy from others—lately Americans. We've also gone up on Indian Rockets. We've gone up on Russian rockets. We've gone up on a variety of different launchers.

AMT: And this bothers you.

CHUCK BLACK: I don't think it's terribly cost effective. The Canadian Space Agency did a study in 2009. They contracted two Canadian companies to assess whether or not Canadian companies could build rockets in Canada for Canadians and to decide whether or not it was cost effective. And one of those reports was actually released in 2014 and it suggested that satellite launch services available to Canada suffer from problems. The cost of flights to specified orbits are higher than they need to be. The availability of launches is subject to long lead times and uncertainty in launch dates—mostly because someone else is doing all the work. We have to wait for when their stuff is available. And orbit selection is controlled by host launches, not by Canadian needs. Canada has to fit into the launch provider's requirements. And the final point was that foreign governments control and limit Canadian satellite launches, and this often causes a great deal of trouble for us. In the early 2000s we had a terrible time launching Radarsat-2 because of American reticence relating to the possibility that the Radarsat would compete with some of their U.S. Landsat. I believe CBC covered that at the time.

AMT: Interesting because didn't we also have a problem we were going to launch with Russia. And then Russia and Ukraine got into conflict, and because Canada was siding with Ukraine, that became a problem?

CHUCK BLACK: Absolutely correct. That happened I believe it was 2013 or 2014 under the Harper government. That launch was rescheduled on a different launcher. I believe it was an Indian launcher. But it postponed to the launch for an extra full year.

AMT: How much would a rocket program cost?

CHUCK BLACK: According to the studies done in 2010 by the two Canadian companies, it would cost slightly under $200 million Canadian dollars. This is very similar to what Rocket Lab—their Electron rocket. The microsatellite launch that went up in January cost their series de-funding—costs about $148 million U.S., which is about $200 million Canadian. It's also equivalent to the Japanese microsat-launcher that went up a couple of days back.

AMT: You know not everyone agrees that we need this. I'd like to play you a clip. This is Retired Air Force colonel Andre Dupuis. He's the former director of space requirements for the Department of National Defense, and he now runs a space consulting firm. Listen to him.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDRE DUPUIS: From a launch perspective a rocket is just a way to get satellites into space. And Canada has invested lots over the years in developing satellites: communication satellites, earth observation satellites. And frankly we're starting to make a name for ourselves in small sats. I think to start a new business of launch is probably not where we should go. We would be late to the party, so to speak. It's not where our strengths are and given the investments in the Canadian space program that we have it's not something I would pursue.

AMT: OK. He's also said a rocket is really just the bus.

CHUCK BLACK: The rocket is indeed just the bus. But without the bus you can't get to Las Vegas.

AMT: What about the argument that we are doing other things? We're doing in robotics. We're concentrating on other aspects of space exploration.

CHUCK BLACK: I think those are all well and good and useful. But the Indian space program, for example one of their big criteria's when they first started the program up and running in the middle 90s was to ensure that they had end-to-end control over their processes so they could launch satellites when they wanted to and they could do their own missions. And that's what possessed them to focus on the Indian polar launch vehicles.

AMT: So what do you think we are losing by not developing our own rocket launch program?

CHUCK BLACK: I think that over time we will be forced to become a parts contractor, a subcontractor, and a component manufacturer for other space programs. I also think that our Canadian students, our engineers and our scientists, more and more will have to travel to the United States or have to travel to Europe. I would say that based on studies I have read, 30 percent of them have to leave the country now.

AMT: OK. Chuck Black, thanks for coming in. Chuck Black is the publisher of the Commercial Space Media Company. He is in our Toronto studio. Plenty of young Canadians are studying rocket technology at the university level today. They're also entering and winning international competitions with their work. But according to my next guest, the lack of a national rocket program does put their future in the field, in doubt. Jeremy Wang is a former member of the University of Toronto Aerospace team. He’s now a team advisor. He joins me now in our studio. Hi.

JEREMY WANG: Hi. Thanks for having me.

AMT: What kind of rockets does your team build?

JEREMY WANG: So our team builds smaller rockets, nothing quite like the Falcon 9 or Falcon Heavy of course. But our rockets go to about three kilometres above the ground—10,000 feet. And really they are there to show that students are capable of building this. They're a great learning opportunity. And in the process we get to do some experiments on board as well.

AMT: Where do you launch them?

JEREMY WANG: At the moment most of these launches take place out of the states. So whether it's heading to upstate New York or down further south to Utah.

AMT: Why wouldn't you launch them north of Toronto?

JEREMY WANG: [Laughs]. I think a lot of people would be upset about that. But one of the key reasons why we head down south is because there is such a strong community there. And from the perspective of the regulations and the process of getting approvals to launch, it's much easier to do so in the United States.

AMT: And how well do Canadian teams generally do in these competitions?

JEREMY WANG: I'm very pleased to say pretty well. In one particular competition—the Intercollegiate Rocket Engineering Competition—Canadian teams have held top spots for the past five or six years, if not longer.

AMT: And it's not solely U of T. There are a number of Canadian universities involved in this.

JEREMY WANG: That's correct. Probably about 20 across the entire country, including students and universities from Quebec, Ontario, and British Columbia.

AMT: OK, so Canada doesn't have a rocket program or a government rocket program. What does that mean for your generation of aerospace engineers?

JEREMY WANG: I think when we think about what career prospects we have, I think the traditional idea and the traditional path for a lot of us is to think about how can we serve a government, how can we serve our country. When we look to organizations like Canadian Space Agency and NASA, we see that it's likely that if we were in the states we would be able to work for agencies like NASA. Here we're looking more so as a private industry. But there is no private rocket industry here.

AMT: And so is that a reflection of a mindset in Canada? What's that about in your mind?

JEREMY WANG: Well I think if you look historically all the way back to the 1950s and all the way to today we see a number of opportunities that Canada had to take a leadership role in rocketry. And so in the 1950s Canada was very interested in ballistic missiles and launching rockets for atmospheric research. We developed one of the world's best performing sounding rockets series called Black Brant out of Winnipeg and in Manitoba.

AMT: That's still being used today, isn't it?

JEREMY WANG: That's correct. It's still being used today. At its peak about 100 launches were being done per year by NASA. So Canada had the opportunity to continue developing that legacy. But for policy reasons relating to that mentality and industry, we let go of that.

AMT: OK, so we know the mission manager for the SpaceX launch is Canadian—in the launch that just went up. Are we losing aerospace and rocket engineering talent to other countries?

JEREMY WANG: We are. I think you know there's certainly no shortage of Canadians who realize that when it comes to cutting edge defense aerospace opportunities it may be easier to head elsewhere. That being said it puts us in really difficult situations when as a non-American citizen it can be very difficult to work in the American sector as well. So a lot of students are caught in this limbo between do we stay in Canada, try to do something here, or do we had elsewhere and risk the potential policy implications of that.

AMT: So where are you in your stage of study?

JEREMY WANG: Right now I'm in my fourth-year of an undergraduate engineering degree at U of T and I'll be graduating this April.

AMT: And what will you do after that?

JEREMY WANG: I'll be working in the drone business.

AMT: OK.

JEREMY WANG: Yes.

AMT: And are you going to continue your studies?

JEREMY WANG: That's correct. Yes. I will be continuing a master's in rocket propulsion, but from a theory point of view, at the University of Waterloo.

AMT: And you've chosen the drone business because?

JEREMY WANG: Well I'm not necessarily partial to rockets as the only technology out there. There's certainly a whole host of aerospace technologies that are interesting. And drones are certainly taking off here. It's a lot easier than rockets.

AMT: And what are you seeing your classmates choose?

JEREMY WANG: Many of them are looking to the traditional aerospace industry. You know lacking the possibility of working for NASA or rocket companies or a lot of Canadian aerospace start-ups. Looking to companies like Airbus and Bombardier

AMT: Do you expect to see some of your colleagues go to Europe or the states?

JEREMY WANG: I've already seen that happening. Yeah [laughs].

AMT: Yeah.

JEREMY WANG: Yeah.

AMT: How many?

JEREMY WANG: I would say probably anywhere between a third to a half have taken on internship roles outside of the country and that's not a surprising trend at all.

AMT: Interesting. We're also seeing private companies SpaceX. We know that Jeff Bezos has got a rocket company as well. It's interesting because we still see Russia and China working on their rockets—other countries. But in the United States as well, even though NASA's working, we see a privatization of this. Where do you see that going?

JEREMY WANG: Well I think it's definitely a trend that will be here for a while. A lot of new developments in the technology and the dynamics of the space industry have allowed private companies to get into it. So the proliferation of smaller satellites. We're not talking about one the sizes of busses, but the sizes of loaves of bread that are now available for people to build. And that's allowed companies like Toronto-based Kepler Communications to create a business around services for space communications using the small satellite. So I think that trend is going to continue. The question for us as Canadians is, the next time an opportunity comes for us to do something in space, whether it's rockets or not, will we do it? And will we do it here?

AMT: And so what do you want to see government do here?

JEREMY WANG: I think it's going to take the whole country, not just governments, to really create change. From the government's point of view I think they're on a good track of opening up this old de facto rule that Canada only does robots and only does satellites. And opening that will allow Canadians to innovate in other areas where we already have expertise. From a private industry point of view, students and investors and existing practicing engineers have to realize that there is talent here, there is funding to go around, and we just need to go after it.

AMT: Thanks for coming in.

JEREMY WANG: Thanks so much.

AMT: Jeremy Wang, an adviser to the University of Toronto aerospace team. He's with me in our Toronto studio. Let us know what you think of this conversation. You can find us on Twitter @TheCurrentCBC, or on Facebook, or on our website cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the Contact link. CBC News is next. And then we introduce you to four people, two Israelis and two Palestinians, all under the age of 35. All who have grown up with a seemingly endless Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current on CBC Radio One, Sirius XM, online on cbc.ca/thecurrent, on podcast, and on your radio app.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

A generation born into conflict: Young Israelis and Palestinians speak about the path to peace

Guests: Haggai Matar, Aya Al-Zinati, Fadi Quran, Bar Gissin

AMT: Hello, I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come, forget about the unified Korean women's hockey team or the chance for Team Canada to clinch hockey gold once more. To some Canadians the most exciting thing about the upcoming Winter Olympics will be a new curling category. Mixed doubles curling is coming to the Pyeongchang games. We'll learn more about what's involved and how Canada stands to fare in just over half an hour. But first, to a peace process, in pieces.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: We say to you today in a loud and clear voice enough is enough of blood and tears enough.

VOICE 2: I am not asking for the moon I am asking only that what had been signed and what had been agreed upon in the white house to be respected.

VOICE 3: Arafat is the main obstacle to peace in the Middle East.

VOICE 4: After 15 months we reach almost the moment of truth we can almost see the contours of an agreement appearing.

VOICE 5: We are all partners in the same struggle? What struggle? The struggle to blow up women and children and babies.

[Sound: Non-English speaking language, dips into translation]

VOICE 6: Trump said in a tweet we won't give to the Palestinians because they reject negotiations. Shame on you. When did we reject the negotiations?

AMT: Voices from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and peace effort going back more than 20 years. You heard voices of Israeli prime ministers, Yitzhak Rabin, Ariel Sharon and Ehud Barak and Israel's current Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. On the Palestinian side, former president of the Palestinian Authority, Yasser Arafat and the current Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas. For a new generation of Israelis and Palestinians, those are some of the only leaders they've seen steering the politics of the region. And the arguments and obstacles on both sides have been playing out their entire lives. The guests you are about to hear were children and teenagers when the Mideast Peace Process—or processes—began in the early 1990s. A world of barriers, checkpoints, suicide bombings, military attacks, and political fights is all they've known. Haggai Matar is a 34-year-old Jewish-Israeli journalist and the executive director of 972 Mag for the Advancement of Citizen Journalism. He is in Tel Aviv. Aya Al-Zinati is a 29-year-old Palestinian Muslim. She is a freelance journalist and a past project coordinator with the United Nations Development Programme. She is in Gaza. Fadi Quran is a 29-year-old Palestinian Muslim and a senior campaigner for Avaaz, an online activist network dedicated to issues such as climate change and human rights. He is in Al-Bireh in Ramallah in the West Bank. And Bar Gissin is a 28- year-old Jewish-Israeli student at Tel Aviv University. She is also chair of the youth wing of Israel's Meretz social-democratic party. She joins us from Jerusalem. Hello to you all of you.

BAR GISSIN: Hello.

HAGGAI MATAR: Hello.

FADI QURAN: Hi.

AYA AL-ZINATI: Hi.

AMT: Aya Al-Zinati in Gaza, I'm going to pick up on what he's saying because the political power in Gaza is different than in the West Bank. In your view, do the Palestinian officials in power in Gaza represent you?

AYA AL-ZINATI: No, not at all. Both Fatah and Hamas—the two main political parties—took the people of Gaza to hell actually by very fake reconciliation. Because of the punishments on Gaza haven't been lifted until now, which were put by Mahmoud Abbas, the president of Palestine. For example, if you want to talk about the basic living requirements here in Gaza. We don't see electricity for only four hours per day. If you want to talk about the other basics like water; day after day water is not suitable for use. About the freedom of movement; we miss freedom of movement forever. The two borders are closed forever. The fourth problem here in Gaza; the unemployment, after Trump's decision and because of that reconciliation hasn't been completed until now, so the funds for Gaza are decreased. So we face a lot of unemployment nowadays—like 80 percent here in Gaza. So we are talking about basic rights for a normal life for any human being. And we don't have the limits from them. So I think we can describe our lives here in Gaza as we live in an open prison. So Hamas, nor Fatah represents here.

AMT: Haggai Matar, you to have had the same people in power for years. In your view, do the Israeli officials in power represent you?

HAGGAI MATAR: They definitely don't represent me personally. And unfortunately they do present a majority of Israelis that I'm just not a part of. But on a personal level they definitely don't. The way that they've been promoting and continuing the application and the siege and tearing communities apart, this is no way a representation of what I would want to see here.

AMT: And so what frustrates you most about the way Israeli politics is unfolding, Haggai?

HAGGAI MATAR: I think we are being told this lie by government since forever—for a very, very long time at least—that there is no way to end occupation; there is no partner for peace on the Palestinian side, there is no alternative to either maintaining the status quo or even strengthening the occupation further by building more settlements, and so on. So this is the only way we can go and that we are doomed to eternal war. These are the things that our leaders tell us and that unfortunately many people believe. And I think the media here also played a significant role in the maintenance of that understanding—the way that people understand reality this way.

AMT: Bar Gisson, I want your opinion on this. Do the Israeli officials in power represent you?

BAR GISSIN: Well, of course they don't. The Israeli government in recent decades have been far right-wing. I consider myself a political activist in the social-democratic left party—Meretz—so obviously they don't. But I have to refer to something that Haggai said. I disagree that the majority of Israel supports this government or sees it as its own representative. Most polls show that the majority of Israel do agree and support the two-state solution; do support a peace process, and do wish to have more social economic security and welfare. And I think all of this agenda is something we have to put in mind while forming a genuine alternative. I think what is missing right now in the political atmosphere in Israel or in Israel's left camp is a coherent saying that is offering a true alternative for people because as long as the Israeli left will not form this alternative, people will always turn to fear and hatred and racism—as we can see happening every day in Israel.

AMT: OK. Well I'm interested in knowing how each of you sees a future that has more harmony. But before we get there, maybe we can talk a little bit about what your lives are like. Bar Gisson, with this kind of politics playing in the background, what are things like? How much are you in contact with Palestinians?

BAR GISSIN: Well I'm not sure if I can represent the majority of Israel young adults. But I'm in kind of a daily contact with parallels and equals from Palestine. Both on a social, you know, friendship level, but also with the political power parallels. I, as the co-chair of the young Meretz I am also in touch with the leadership of young Fatah and other movements—social and student movements in Palestine. We share similar values and ideology and we put out together projects promoting this peace process and the two-state solution.

AMT: And when's the first time you met a Palestinian, Bar?

BAR GISSIN: I think it was during my B.A. I went on an exchange program in New York called Paths to Peace. It's an Israeli-Palestinian program and it was right after the last war in Gaza. My roommate came from Gaza and she came three weeks late because their border was closed. Far from being just a very touching human encounter with an equal, it was also a very revealing experience for me as I consider myself, a progressive leftist Israeli, to face my prejudices or my thoughts or what I thought about Palestinians for the first time with Palestinians who can speak for themselves. And I think was one of the most teaching experiences I've had. We spent six months together in New York. It was kind of obscene to imagine that the only place I could actually meet and see and talk together with Palestinians for six or 10 months is New York.

AMT: How long ago was this, Bar?

BAR GISSIN: I think it was five years ago.

AMT: So you're 28-years-old, and only five years ago did you actually have a real encounter with a Palestinian.

BAR GISSIN: With a Palestinian that is not a citizen of Israel. Yes I do work intensively with Palestinian citizens of Israel, which is a completely different issue to deal and to encompass, but with Palestinians living outside of Israel, yes.

AMT: Fadi Quran, how much interaction do you have with Israelis?

FADI QURAN: My daily interaction with Israelis consists mostly of interacting with Israeli soldiers and settlers. I live near a settlement. A lot of times we have Israeli incursions into my side the town and the settlements also attack cars if we drive too nearby. And close to where I live there is a checkpoint and that's often closed. And so my interaction mainly with Israelis is the interaction of a community that's being oppressed. And the Israelis are the military that's doing the oppression. And I need to highlight here there is also the indirect control. So the water that arrives at my house for example is also controlled by Israeli. So even though I don't interact with them directly I know that they hold the tap faucet. And similarly if I want to travel leaving the city I'm in or live in the West Bank generally, we have to cross through multiple Israeli checkpoints and controls.

AMT: How much time do you have to spend at checkpoints if you want to move around the West Bank, Fadi?

FADI QURAN: Well it depends. The last time I travelled to Jordan—a 30 minute drive took me about three hours. And crossing the bridge that takes us to Jordan because we're not allowed to use Israeli airport. We're banned from it. I was kept at the bridge for over seven hours and interrogations and waiting and so forth. I would say for Palestinians that live in places such as the old city of Hebron for example, or that live in villages and have to travel consistently to the cities nearby and they have to spend much more time doing their lives either taking winding roads because Israel doesn't allow them to use certain roads, or just being stuck at checkpoints, or facing other obstacles on the way. And I think it's important for people listening in Canada because sometimes we can speak about these things and they sound abstract. Imagine if Canada was divided into small Bantustans—small islands. And every city, let's say Toronto, was its own island surrounded by checkpoints and walls. And every time you would want to go from let's say Toronto to any other city nearby, you would have to go through multiple checkpoints. And all the way until you get to Montreal you would be stopped by another government that would be controlling your land and that would question you and so forth.

AMT: OK. If you wanted to go to Jerusalem, Fadi, could you go there?

FADI QURAN: No. I’m banned, and the vast majority of Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza are banned from going to Jerusalem. We can't go there to pray at any of the holy sites. And if one really wants to go you'd have to apply for permits. But again most people don't get permits. And Israel has surrounded Jerusalem with a wall. Most of the wall in the area around Jerusalem is made out of concrete slabs. Some people may have seen the pictures. But it's almost three times as high as the Berlin wall. It could get up to eight metres in some places. And there are checkpoints in and around the wall and if people try to go in without a permit they could get shot. It's a big problem to go to Jerusalem for Muslims and Christians that are Palestinian.

AMT: Haggai Matar, talk to me a little bit about your interaction with Palestinians.

HAGGAI MATAR: I started meeting Palestinians when I was about 15.

AMT: Would these be Palestinians who are living in...

HAGGAI MATAR: From the occupied territories. At a summer school the tours are organized for Israelis-Palestinians and Jordanians. And ever since I've been going to the occupied territories on a fairly regular basis to either meet friends—Palestinian friends—or participate, or now as a journalist report and cover demonstrations, protests against the wall, settlements, and so on. So my contact is fairly regular. But I think very much like what Bar was saying., this is the quite unusual situation for Israelis. And our generation has grown up too indeed the Oslo process, but at the same time to the process of segregation of communities. So putting up with first the permit regime and then the wall that Fadi was mentioning and the siege in Gaza. We grew up into a reality where even though there was occupation before our time, at the time of our parents the occupation had no borders. It was still terrible. People would go in and out. Palestinians would be able to come into Israel and Israelis would go to the occupied territories on a purely free basis. So there was at least some human interaction. For our generation in the past 25 years, there has been very, very little, if any, interaction. And people don't meet each other. And the sense I think on both sides is that the interactions that you do have [unintelligible] are usually in the context of violence for most people. For Palestinians meeting soldiers and settlers. For Israelis hearing or experiencing attacks in Tel Aviv, in Jerusalem, and so on. And there is very little opportunity to meet or know each other in any other context.

AMT: Aya Al-Zinati, what's it like for you? Do you meet Israelis?

AYA AL-ZINATI: I was born in Saudi Arabia and I lived there. Then move to United Arab Emirates after [unintelligible] Gaza. In 2005 I returned to Gaza. So Hamas came in 2006 so I haven't seen Israelis before. Only at its checkpoints, actually. I lived in Gaza and I lived the three wars. And the Israelis were in the ground here in Gaza. But no I haven't like met with them face to face. Only just at its check borders. But I hear from my grandmother and grandfather that they used to interact with them because Gaza people used to work in Israel, like for 40 years after the [unintelligible] came. But I don't know what happened next. This is why I told in the very beginning when you asked about the peace process; I said I am with one-state solution to interact the Israelis with the Palestinians. But under a government mixing between Palestinians and Israelis—not only Israel's.

AMT: You talk about the Erez checkpoint. Erez is the place where people going from Gaza into Israel or vice versa would go.

AYA AL-ZINATI: Yep. It's to go from Gaza to West Bank. And from West Bank to Gaza, and for sure to Israel. I used to take permits before because I used to work with the UNDP.

AMT: But for average people from Gaza, can they get through that checkpoint?

AYA AL-ZINATI: No. Only if you work with NGOs or with the UN and you have a special guest like you are sick. And nowadays if you hear the news, now you can't easily move to Ezra’s checkpoint.

AMT: So your neighbors in Gaza, Aya, have they ever been out of Gaza?

AYA AL-ZINATI: No, I don't think so.

AMT: You talk about Abbas. So you face different politics altogether. You have Hamas. Then you have the politics of the West Bank where Mahmoud Abbas speaks for the Palestinian Authority. And then you have the Israelis.

AYA AL-ZINATI: Yeah. And the three of them put the punishments on the Gaza people. We have the occupation from Mahmoud Abbas. And we have an occupation from Hamas. And we have an occupation from the Israel. We live in an open prison actually here in Gaza because we faced all this occupation together.

AMT: You are each describing a situation that you're clearly not pleased with and I'm wondering how you go from the lives you live now to something that those of us on the outside would call "peace." What does that look like? Or is that not even the word I should be using? Haggai…

HAGGAI MATAR: I think for many years we have kind of given up on the word “peace” here. I think many people have. Or at least in my area—political camp. And the idea of peace kind of seems remote right now. We are mostly focused on ending occupation is the most urgent thing for us. We feel that the word "peace" has kind of been kidnapped to serve Israel's interest in showing that there is a peace process. It's coming and going. But there's always attempt to reach peace. And that's kind of I think helps Israel to avoid the fact that it does rule millions of people directly and indirectly without any basic rights. And all the different solutions that are being discussed like one-state or two-state, if you don't acknowledge the right of Palestinians to be a part of the decision making and be responsible for the future and enjoy democracy; if you don't do all of that, all these different solutions are basically meaningless to me. So I think our focus is mainly on promoting within the Israeli society the realization that we have been under occupation.

AMT: Haggai, we often hear that some Israelis will argue that Israel is a very small place, the Jewish state needs to protect itself, and it is surrounded by Arab nations and that that always plays into the equation. How do you see that?

HAGGAI MATAR: Well first of all that cannot change the fact that Israel controls millions of people without basic human or civil rights. So you can't explain that. You can't excuse that with anything. Second, definitely if we look at the reality now—2018—Israel is surrounded by two Arab states that have peaceful relationships with—both Egypt and Jordan. And then there's Syria and Lebanon that are completely torn apart from the inside and really present absolutely no threat to Israel. So even that past excuse of permanent threats from our neighbours, that doesn't really apply anymore.

AMT: Ok. I’m looking at the clock. I'm going to hold you all there, because we need to take a quick break. I want to pick up on this conversation when we return. I’m speaking with four people under the age of 35. Two Palestinians: Aya Al-Zinati in Gaza and Fadi Quran in the West Bank. Two Israelis: Haggai Matar in Tel Aviv and Bar Gissin in Jerusalem. As you listen, let us know what you’re thinking. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook or write to us from our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. We’re going to hear more from our four guests in the next half hour. And then we shift topics all together to talk about a new offering at the Olympic winter games—one that Canada has a chance to win a medal in, mixed doubles curling, which actually starts before the Olympics officially start. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current. If you're just joining us, we're in the middle of a conversation with a new generation facing and living with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and peace process. We’re speaking to two Palestinians and two Israelis under the age of 35. We're hearing about their views of life and what they believe is a way forward toward peace. Haggai Matar is a 34-year-old Israeli journalist and the executive director of 972 Mag for the Advancement of Citizen Journalism. He is in Tel Aviv. Bar Gissin is a 28-year-old Israeli student at Tel Aviv University and chair of the young wing of Israel's Meretz social democratic party. She is in Jerusalem. Aya Al-Zinati is a 29-year-old Palestinian. She is a freelance journalist and a past project coordinator with the United Nations Development Programme. She joins us from Gaza. And Fadi Quran is a 29-year-old Palestinian and a senior campaigner for Avaaz, an online activist network. He is in Al-Bireh near Ramallah in the West Bank.

AMT: Fadi, what do you think? Can there be peace as those of us outside might think of peace?

FADI QURAN: The question of will there be peace one day—I think there definitely will be peace. The peace that has been oftentimes spoken about and the peace that the Israeli government has been seeking is a peace between the master and a slave where they want Palestinians to just accept the status quo and live under their boot. And Palestinians have shown that they're unwilling to accept that status quo. I think the bigger question here is how do we achieve that peace and what are the foundations of peace? And we've been working in Palestine across a broad spectrum of youth movements. Thousands of thousands of young men and women. And we've defined three key principles that are necessary to achieve peace. And those are freedom, justice, and dignity. And not just as political terms. But freedom specifically, in the sense that no one should be forced to follow any laws or rules unless they're put in place through a fair and democratic process. So for example right now, under Israeli military orders, if I were to have a meeting with 10 people to discuss political issues I could be arrested for up to six months. And if I were to organize a protest, I would be violating Israeli military rules and I could be arrested for up to three years. And justice here means basic equality and fairness. So it's unfair, for example, that it's very difficult for me to travel compared to someone like Haggai or Bar or that we have to pay significant costs for water or electricity, and pay that money to Israel. In many cases we're not even allowed to install solar panels. And I think dignity here is an instinctive term that the listeners will definitely understand what it means living a life feeling empowered and feeling in control of one's destiny. Once we achieve those values there will be peace. And when I say achieve those values I mean achieving them for all. But to do that, it's central that we manage to change the power balance on the ground. Right now, like Haggai was saying, Israel controls through its military—one of the strongest military in the world—controls the daily lives of Palestinians. And continues to not only, let's say oppressed the population here, but more importantly spread the message around the world that Israel is the victim, that Israel is the one that is under constant threat, creating a fake type of consistent existential crisis. When in fact it's the Palestinian population. And this is based on again the UN. And based on what the international community has now begun to realize the fact is that the Palestinians are the ones that are being wiped off of their land, are the ones that are being in many cases forced to leave their homes after their homes are demolished, and their struggle for self-determination is the one being wiped out. But if we work to change the power balance, we can achieve peace not just for the people living here, but for people all across the Middle East.

AMT: And Fadi where is the Palestinian leadership on that vision?

FADI QURAN: The Palestinian leadership are very far away from that vision for a lot of the reasons that we've discussed. And they have a narrative; particularly I would say led by President Mahmoud Abbas, which is a narrative of no agency. And Mahmoud Abbas believes that the only way Palestinians will be free is if they make the American government and certain Western governments happy. And so he has allowed for example the Americans to train the Palestinian security forces and he has ordered the security forces to clamp down on Palestinian activism while they cooperate with Israel. But he and the leadership are not working to create the agency and to shift that power balance. They speak in a way that seeks outside powers to intervene. But the outside powers won't intervene if we are not speaking with the right message and if we are not clear on the values that we are fighting for on the ground here. As the Palestinian leaders of the early struggle, I would say that began even before 1948, were clear about this is a struggle for basic rights and this is a struggle for self-determination. And the Palestinian leadership today has forgotten that and turned it into a struggle for bureaucratic benefits that they personally gain from and the rest of society lose from.

AMT: Bar Gissin, Fadi just makes a point this is a struggle that has gone on decades back. So what does peace, if that's the word, look like for you in a place where there is a Jewish identity for Israel?

BAR GISSIN: If I can refer to something just before answering the question about Jewish identity, is that I think we share a very similar criticism towards our government. I think that our government—the Israeli government—has chosen to use the term "managing the conflict" or "conflict management" instead of striving and doing significant steps towards peace. It's a very depressing process that happened, which means that we got accustomed and used to the reality that we are in the conflict. And this will most likely not change. And we should just manage it the best way we can, like some sort of venture or initiative or whatever. And this is something that has to be changed in order for regaining the trust and the ability to have a peace process and a solution. Now I don't want to speak about tactics or what kind of solution will it be exactly because I think this is something that happens once both sides, and I hold complete responsibility but we also hold a lot of criticism towards my government that is right now not willing to sit down and have a negotiation. I think that the core issue that frightens most Jewish-Israelis is actually that question about the Jewish state and the Jewish identity of Israel. And I think much have been told on the question of what is Judaism. Is it religion? Is it a culture? Is it a nation? How do we define it? And this causes a lot of difficulties for Israelis and Jewish-Israelis in trying to solve the occupation and end the occupation. But it's something that has to be addressed. This basic historical trauma that Jews have experienced has to be addressed. And I think all of these difficulties and all of these traumas that both people hold have to be put on the table and addressed in the most honest way in order to start figuring how to solve it and not only managing the conflict.

AMT: And what would that look like, Bar?

BAR GISSIN: To me personally I think that the first thing that has to happen, just like Haggai said, was ending the occupation and right after the Palestinians has to have their own self-determination and their own state. It is very vivid that only by others allow the Palestinians to have exactly what we asked just 70 years ago. We will be able to move forward for a sustainable peaceful agreement between the people.

AMT: Aya Al-Zinati in Gaza, how do you see peace as we would call it in the West? What has to happen for some kind of harmony for your life to improve in a way that you feel you're moving forward?

AYA AL-ZINATI: Actually, if I choose peace here in Gaza because we were tired of this living. OK we are trying to fight for our land. We are fighting for our rights. But we got nothing. We were fighting for this for 17 years for this solution and we got nothing. But the opposite happened. We faced three wars here in Gaza. So if I choose peace with Israel actually or with the very reconciliation between the two parties because I'm a human being after all. I want my people to live in peace after what they faced because we can't describe our situation by words. And you can't imagine—you should come by yourself to see how the life here nowadays in Gaza. The last two months here in Gaza is very different of the 11 years that we lived under division. That's why I want the peace between the two parties because I need this to be fixed after all. I know that many people in Palestine won't like my point of view because they said like, 'yeah now we give up. We want to give them our land'. But we are a human being after all. That's why I stand with a one-state solution.

AMT: As I listened to all of you I hear a generational divide from the kinds of voices we normally hear on this front. Bar, do you feel that generational divide?

BAR GISSIN: Yes, completely. It comes in two expressions of it. First is the general one. We as young adults who were born into the reality of the occupation—the ongoing conflict—and not being able to have a say yet about it just because the older generation kind of did it and forced us to be part of it. And the second one is a generational divide between the young Israeli-left and the older generation. And I think that you can vividly see in the older generation that they are somewhere stuck with still the late the 90s, the Oslo Accords atmosphere and approach, that here it's coming., the peace is just behind the corner. And the fact is that the Oslo Accords are over 20 years away from us. And if we keep on holding on to what happened more than 20 years ago we’ll most definitely won't be relevant for today. Wars have happened since then and people have died and leaderships have shifted. And if we want to start asking ourselves what are the necessities and the core issues that are relevant for today for both people, we won't be able to form peace. This is a must that my generation calls out for. I hear it everywhere in the Israeli-left.

AMT: And Fadi, I know that in your activism you don't want to see a normalization of the world in which you've grown up in. And I'm wondering how you see the divides and how you get around them and how you get to a point where you can work with Israelis for the world that you want to see?

FADI QURAN: So to be clear on this and in Palestine across Palestine, there is a principle that is growing particularly among the young generation. And this principle is that we are willing to work with anyone, all people, regardless of race, religion, regardless of nationality, who will join us in co-resistance to the basic racism and oppression that our people face. But there have been programs and dozens and dozens of programs that have been focused on co-existence under the status quo. And there's a difference between Fadi and people from the other side coming together and saying 'we're going to build a better future based on the principles that we all hold dear. Based on the ideas that all people deserve to have their dignity respected'. Normalization means it would be like an apartheid South African saying 'I'm going to learn how to go along with Afrikaners in a situation of apartheid'. It is wrong. But unfortunately, like I said, a lot of people are trying to push that language because it's an effort to domesticate Palestinian society and that's in fact the term that's used as if we are animals and effort to domesticate us and normalize the situation that exists. So again I don't want my position and the position of the vast majority Palestinian society until this day against normalization to be misconstrued as you know not willing to work with others because that's not the case. And they also want to add the other things that I think it's important to this conversation because I don't want to paint a rosy picture about this generation compared to the past generation. What we're seeing particularly on the Israeli side is that there's an increase within the younger generation in terms of the levels of racism. So a poll conducted by the Pew Research Center last year showed that 79 percent of Israel's Jeswish citizens believe that they should have preferential treatment and rules compared to Arabs living in the same area. And a much higher amount than previous years agreed with the idea of settlements. Sixty-one percent believe within the younger generation—those under the age of 25 in this poll—believe within Israel that the all of the land was God given to them and that justified settlements. And for the first time in a long time, in fact, a poll showed that the majority of Israelis are against a two-state solution. Only 46 percent of Israelis support a two-state solution. So this shift towards the right-wing, including within the Israeli military, I think is something to be extremely worried about. And I don't want the audience in Canada to assume that, 'oh once the old leaders go away and a new generation comes everything is going to be OK.

AMT: Haggai, what do you say about the points that Fadi's making about the generational difference or lack of different?

HAGGAI MATAR: I totally agree with everything that Fadi said. And I think maybe just to connect what Fadi was saying about growing up into the reality of segregation. Growing up into a reality where people don't meet each other is exactly the cause of what Fadi was describing, as the younger generation in Israel becoming more supportive of Jewish supremacism. So while there are of course young activists and people that are hopeful and fighting for change, the vast majority is going more to the right than older generations. And I think this definitely has to do with the fact that people don't meet each other, and it's much easier to de-humanize the other side in your mind just because you never meet them.

AMT: We have to leave it there. Thank you all of you for weighing in and sharing your thoughts on this with us.

HAGGAI MATAR: Thank you for having us.

BAR GISSIN: Thank you.

FADI QURAN: Thank you so much.

AMT: I’ve been speaking with Haggai Matar, Jewish-Israeli journalist and the executive director of 972 Mag for the Advancement of Citizen Journalism. He is in Tel Aviv. Aya Al-Zinati is a Palestinian Muslim freelance journalist and a past project coordinator with the United Nations Development Programme. She is in Gaza. Fadi Quran is a Palestinian Muslim senior campaigner for Avaaz, an online activist network dedicated to issues such as climate change and human rights. He is in Al-Bireh near Ramallah in the West Bank. And Bar Gissin is a Jewish-Israeli student at Tel Aviv University. She is also the chair of the young social democratic party in Israel. She is in Jerusalem. We know there are other perspectives on the issues we've been discussing today and we're interested in hearing them. We did also reach out to the Likud Youth Party to see if one of their members would like to join our discussion but we did not hear back. If you'd like to share your thoughts with us on what you heard and what you’re thinking, send us an email, from our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. And click on the Contact link.

[Music: Bridge]

AMT: This is The Current on CBC Radio One and Sirius XM. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti.

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Half the players, twice the fun? Mixed doubles curling debuts at Winter Games & Canada seeks the gold

Guest: Pam Kok

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Yeah baby, I love that, yeah baby, awesome!

[Sound: Cheering]

VOICE 2: Kaitlyn Lawes, John Morris, bound for South Korea.

VOICE 1: We're going to Korea baby, yeah!

AMT: Sounds of excitement and success. Kaitlyn Lawes and John Morris last month clinching their spots at the Olympic Games in Pyeongchang. Both are big names in the curling world. They've each won Olympic gold before. But never together. Tonight they compete in an event that's brand new to the Games—mixed doubles curling. And right now I'm joined by Pam Kok. She's the president of Kaitlyn Lawes's home club—St. Vital Curling Club in Winnipeg—where friends and fans will be gathering for a viewing party. Pam Kok is in our Winnipeg studio. Hi.

PAM KOK: Hi. Good morning.

AMT: You excited?

PAM KOK: I sure am.

AMT: So the curling started before the games even begin.

PAM KOK: Yeah, a lot of people are asking about that.

AMT: What's the reason for that?

PAM KOK: Well I'm not totally sure. All I was told was that they were starting early and they were going to be the first prime time coverage of an Olympic sporting event before the torch is lit.

AMT: And this is the first time that mixed doubles curling is happening too. So I guess giving it more of a spotlight.

PAM KOK: Yeah I think so. It's a historic event. Yes, because of its first time showing at an Olympic Winter Games. And so we're super excited about this.

AMT: So this is a new variation on curling. Where did it come from?

PAM KOK: Well it started in Europe. The first world curling mixed doubles championships were held in 2008. And so some countries have been playing this type of style of curling for quite some time. And Canada since it's starting in this Olympics decided 'oh boy we need to get on this bandwagon. We need to start training or our curlers so that we can medal in these events'.

AMT: So it's been slower to catch on in Canada.

PAM KOK: It has.

AMT: Why is that?

PAM KOK: Well I think we really love our four-person curling. We love the camaraderie. And our clubs have always been filled. It is my understanding that two-person curling that started over in Europe, it was a way to bring people into the club. So it was a lot easier to get two people to come into a club versus trying to get four people together to play the game.

AMT: Oh, so in a funny way, it was almost like a lack of popularity on that front where you already had the popularity and you didn't need to do that.

PAM KOK: Right. That's correct.

AMT: Interesting. So can you explain a bit about how it works? What the differences are?

PAM KOK: Well with the mixed doubles you have to have a male and a female curler. In our regular curling we have four-person women's team or four-person men's team. In regular curling we throw eight rocks. With the mixed doubles the first person who throws a rock, throws one in five. Second person, who throws, throws two, three, and four. So we're only throwing five rocks. We're still playing eight-end games. And so the differences are you can't take out any rocks until the fourth rock of the end is thrown. And two rocks are already established in the mixed doubles. One in the centre, just at the back of the forefoot. And one is a guard in the front of the rings. And in regular curling we don't set up the ends that way. The players throw those rocks into positions that they desire for the end.

AMT: Have you played?

PAM KOK: I have.

AMT: And do you like it?

PAM KOK: Well at first I was like, 'oh I'm not sure if I really like this game'. But you know what, I think I'm really starting to enjoy it. I had a chance to play it the other night. I was sparing for a team and it's actually faster. So if you enjoy being upstairs at the lounge after a game, you get up there a lot quicker [laughs].

AMT: It's half the time, right?

PAM KOK: It is.

AMT: Yeah.

PAM KOK: It is. And it's really fast paced. I usually dress in layers and I had too many layers on the other night and I didn't realize how physically demanding it was going back and forth down the ice sweeping your rock. You do use your cardiovascular system a lot more.

AMT: What about the actual strategy? You have to change that as well?

PAM KOK: Yeah, the rocks were already placed for you in the end. And in the centre you would have a centre guard and you're only allowed one power play which is a corner guard one time during the whole game. You can decide when to use it. And when a team has last rock, usually you place your rock as a corner guard to the side of the rings just in front. And you don't have that option forever when you have the hammer. So it is more difficult—plays to the centre. And it gets very interesting and hard to score sometimes in an end.

AMT: Sounds like you like it.

PAM KOK: Yeah, I kind of like it.

AMT: Beyond the lounge thing [laughs.

PAM KOK: So it's faster. It's faster. I love that part about it too.

AMT: And you of course will be cheering for Kaitlyn Lawes. When did you first get a sense that she'd be a great curler?

PAM KOK: Oh my goodness. Well I have a little story about that and I shared that with her at her at the send-off party that we had for her on January 26th at the club. She was a little youngster. I was curling in a mixed bonspiel at the Pembina Curling Club and I saw this little girl on sheet one. And she was throwing rocks there. And I was just mesmerized by her. And I had no idea at the time who she was. I asked after, "Who is that young girl? I really need to know her name." Just her technique and her mechanics at such a young age were just amazing. She just caught my attention. So she was probably about 9-years-old.

AMT: Is that right?

PAM KOK: Yeah, when I first noticed her. And then all of a sudden she came on the scene winning two junior Canadian titles. And then all of a sudden she joined Jennifer Jones team and like wow she's at the Olympics for the second time. So amazing.

AMT: How old is she now?

PAM KOK: She's 29-years-old.

AMT: OK. So that's interesting you really notice talent at a young age, like her talent jumped out at you.

PAM KOK: Yeah, it did.

AMT: Wow. OK.

PAM KOK: It really did.

AMT: So what do you think their chances are in Pyongyang?

PAM KOK: Oh wow. Wow. It's going to be tough. And I'm really hoping that they're going to medal in of course for the gold medal. Their biggest competition is going to be Switzerland. They've won six gold medals in the World Curling Championships and so I think they're going to be their biggest competition. Russia has won a couple of gold medals. And Hungary a couple gold medals as well. And we have some catching up to do, but curling here in Canada – we’re like rock solid [laughs]. We're amazing curlers here.

AMT: You're rock stars [laughs].

PAM KOK: Rock stars. Rock solid. And these countries have something to worry about with our teams coming there.

AMT: OK. Well Pam good to talk to you. Enjoy.

PAM KOK: Thank you so much.

AMT: Pam Kok is president of the St Vital Curling Club. She was in our Winnipeg studio. Mixed doubles curling premieres at the Olympics today. The Opening ceremony is Friday. Stay with CBC for the latest from the Games. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thank you for listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

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February 7, 2018 Episode Transcript

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