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The AIH Transcript for February 01, 2018

Hosts: Helen Mann and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello. I'm Helen Mann, sitting in for Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglass. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

HM: Clinical precision. A Syrian hospital inside an underground cave was built to survive anything — but today, five massive air strikes finally thought its weak spot, and left much of the facility in ruins.

JD: Abuse as directed. The population of Williamson, West Virginia is under 3,000. So why did pharmaceutical companies send more than 20 million opioid pills to the small towns two pharmacies over the course of a decade?

HM: Driven from the driver's seat. Suncor Energy plans to have driverless trucks hauling stuff around the Alberta oil patch, which means human truck operators are not in it for the long haul.

JD: Looks like they got to the hard place from the rock. Fifty-five years ago, the only three men ever to escape Alcatraz plunged into San Francisco Bay. And new evidence suggests they made it. And one may still be alive.

HM: Close to perfect stranger. A Quebec teenager is enjoying some solo ice time when an intruder shows up wanting to run drills. And he agrees because he could use the practice, and also because the intruder is Sidney Crosby.

JD: And cat's got its own tongue. During an interview on last night's program, one of our guests was rudely and repeatedly interrupted by her insistent, furry roommate, whose noisy insights put the pet in petulant.

JD: As It Happens, the Thursday edition radio that contains strong human language. Mewers discretion is advised.

[Music: Theme]

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Part one: Syria hospital, autonomous trucks, Crosby kid

Syria hospital

Guest: Amjad Rass

JD: It was built to withstand anything. But after five powerful airstrikes today, a Syrian hospital in an underground cave was destroyed. The facility is located in Hama province. It was built underneath 18 metres of solid rock. Today marks the fourth time this year alone that this hospital was targeted. Several staff members and patients were inside the hospital at the time. But no one was killed. Dr. Amjad Rass knows many of the doctors and nurses at the Cave Hospital — and his father-in-law is a surgeon there. We reached Dr. Rass in Akron, Ohio.

HM: Dr. Rass, I know you spoke with your father in law earlier. How was he coping after this attack at the Cave Hospital?

AMJAD RASS: He was just trying to relax and be alone. He told me about his journey from the hospital to where he's at now. And, of course, he told me about the destruction in the hospital.

HM: Now, we have posted the photos from inside the Cave Hospital on our website. They show just an absolutely devastating scene. Can you describe to us what we see in them?

AR: First, the hospital is like a cave hospital; it goes deep under the mountain. And the deeper you go inside, the thicker rock above the hospital would be. The attack took place at the entrance, where we had only about six to seven metres of rocks and dirt above the concrete. So this is where the missile has penetrated the hospital. And in a different photo where you see those stretchers and hospital beds destroyed.

HM: When you look at those images are you surprised that people were not more severely hurt or killed?

AR: Actually, I'm pleased. Everybody stayed inside way deep under like really thick layers of rocks. Everybody was way deep in the structure of the hospital. We had several attacks on this hospital. I think four in January and six last year. The only loss we had this hospital was just outside the hospital when a doctor was killed as he was leaving the hospital.

HM: In terms of the attacks on the hospital itself do you believe it is specifically being targeted in the in these attacks?

AR: Yes, because everything is being watched satellite or those drones. I'm sure the images showing that ambulances are running to this place. And the pattern, I mean hospitals are being attacked. Two days ago, another hospital was attacked in a town, and before, and before. So a month ago, I was OBGYN in a hospital birth centre not too far from the Cave Hospital, and it was destroyed — a birth centre where we had babies and woman in labour.

HM: Given the damage — the devastation — caused by these strikes, how powerful would they be?

AR: To penetrate 20 feet of rocks, this is very powerful. You know I've been involved in the medical relief, I've been seeing these hospitals that are being attacked, different styles and structures of hospitals being targeted. This is the deepest penetration I have seen since the war started in Syria.

HM: Your father-in-law got out of the hospital today after the strike. You know there was a lot of destruction as you point out around the outside. How did he manage to get out of there?

AR: They sent ta car because all the cars were partially destroyed or undriveable or whatever. So they sent a car, a big car, like a van to get some of the staff out. After they left the hospital, they’re driving toward Idlib. They saw a plane on the horizon, so they jumped the car, they turned the car off, jumped out, and stayed away from the car. Those missiles are typically heat-directed missiles. So the heat created by car engine would direct the missile. So this is what we do even when I go inside Syria and we see a plane. We turn the engine off and we run away from the car. So that's what they did. My father-in-law is an older man with back problems — he cannot run. But he made it far enough from the car. The pilot unleashed his missile, and it did not come near them. So they made it back to the car and drove away.

HM: Do you know if your father-in-law plans to head back to work?

AR: I mean we need to assess the damage and the need for this hospital. And also, assess the risk. For now, we we ask everybody to stay in a safe place. So we have not made a decision for them to go back to work yet.

HM: So you don't know if you're going to rebuild?

AR: We might if we see the need for this hospital. But at this point, we have not made a decision. It is too early.

HM: At this point, what do you think the need is? How important is this hospital to people in Hama province?

AR: With the escalation of violence started in early December, we see a lot of people leaving the frontlines. And the frontlines are changing as the Syrian regime forces and its allies are advancing. If we think the area does not have a large enough population to be served, then we will not reopen this hospital. In that area there were three hospitals. So now, all those hospitals are out of service.

HM: You know it's hard to imagine how you can protect any of these facilities any better than you would this hospital built in an underground cave. If it isn't safe, then how can you possibly establish another area that's even safer?

AR: You're absolutely right. We always look at this hospital as the safest place in the entire Syria, but now it seems like different weapons are being used to target medical facilities. We leave it up to the engineers and the guys inside, including the medical activists and doctors to tell us what they want. But I don't know what's the next step? I cannot think of any more protective structure than the Cave Hospital in Kafr Zita. It's frustrating. Like today— today is not a good day.

HM: You said that your father-in-law has lived through this repeatedly as well. Can you give me a sense of how he is doing relative to previous experiences like this? How he's coping?

AR: He told me one thing today that he really got scared. He said I don't fear death, but it was too scary for me. I cannot live that experience, especially for an older man. I mean he's been exposed to chemical weapons. He treated the chemical attack victim on April 4th. He was he was hit by a rock from an attack on a facility early last year and injured his back. He already had back problems. And one day two years ago, he had to run barefoot in the field, running away from a hospital that been attacked. And that was destroyed a minute after he left it — completely destroyed. I mean almost a near death experience. And talking about living his I don't know fifth-sixth like — he is. I mean he's not the only one living this experience. All medical staff inside Syria, they all live through this experience once, twice, or more.

HM: Dr. Rass. I very much appreciate you telling us all about this. Thank you very much. And I wish you and your family the best.

AR: Well, thank you, Helen. Thank you.

HM: All right.

AR: you have a good afternoon. Bye bye.

HM: Bye bye.

JD: Dr. Amjad Rass is the chair of the Syrian American Medical Society, that is the organization that supports the Cave Hospital in Hama province, Syria. Today, that hospital was partially destroyed after being hit with five airistrikes. Some of the hospital staff have sent us photographs of what's left of the facility after the attacks. They’re on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Rock]

Autonomous trucks

Guest: Steve Kelly

JD: Some of us may be looking forward to driverless cars, so we can spend the commute home watching Netflix on our way home to watch Netflix. But if your job is driving, autonomous vehicles could mean that kind of leisure time you really don't want. Suncor Energy in Calgary says that over the next six years, it's going to introduce more than 150 enormous, autonomous electric trucks at one of its mines. And that advancement in technology is a big step back for humans: the company says as many as four-hundred jobs could be cut. Steve Kelly drives one of the currently non-autonomous trucks. He's also the treasurer for the union at Suncor Energy. We reached Mr. Kelly in Fort McMurray.

HM: Mr. Kelly, when you first heard about all of these job losses, how did you react?

STEVE KELLY: I was disappointed. Whenever there is a job loss in our industry, especially when a significant is this, the impacts are wide and vast. Not just for the membership that's going to be impacted on the plants, it’s also what happens to the community.

HM: Is your own job on the line?

SK: At this point, Suncor has communicated that there’s no layoffs of permanent employees. So my personal job is good. We're still having conversations with the company as to how future employment will look?

HM: I want to get to your broader concerns in a moment. First of all, give us an understanding of what's involved in doing your job? Can you describe one of these trucks that you drive?

SK: They’re 10 metres wide, almost as tall, they haul of 400 tons of dirt from point A to Point B. They’re typically 400 tons themselves, so it's a big, heavy machine that operates in all sorts of conditions.

HM: How fundamental are they to the operations in the oil sands?

SK: They're a core piece of the operations and the oil sands. They are the means of transporting the dirt from the shovel face to the hoppers. At that point, it goes into the plant for preparation.

HM: What kind of skills are involved in learning to drive a vehicle like that?

SK: It's more than driving a car. There’s the width and the depth and understanding where you are when you're driving. The skill set that it takes to operate such a big piece of equipment and the tools in the inclement conditions. It takes lots of feeling and knowledge of how to maintain that piece of equipment.

HM: Now, you have called this rollout of autonomous trucks potentially devastating for the local community. Take me through some of the concerns that you have for the future there?

SK: Well, when you look at something like 400 positions, even over a period of time, that's a big hit on a community small like ours — we’re a community under 100,000 people. But the oil sands has been the driving force behind this community for a long time. And while our community tries to do new and different things such as tourism and all the good stuff, oil sands is still a base of that. When you move 400 people from this type of community, especially in the type of downturn in climate that we've been in the last few years, that impacts a lot of people — it impacts grocery stores when there’s 400 less people buying groceries. It impacts Petro-Canada, which sells Suncor’s gas. It impacts the housing market. And ultimately, this is only just two plant sites. When you look at the sites that are closer to town, which are likely want to adopt similar type of technology, we’re not talking about 400 positions anymore; we're talking about many more. We would hope that there would be consideration as to what this will do overall. You know we talk about a good community partner in a corporation is not just about sponsoring a football team or a local park. It's also about creating good jobs and creating good environments and making sure that you're giving back to the community that helped build these corporations and are utilizing the resources.

HM: As a matter of fact, in the piece that you wrote, you pointed out that the resources don't belong to the companies; they belong to the people of Alberta — I guess to the people of this country. And you talked about the royalties that should be paid to the province and part of your concern is that that's not at the level it once was.

SK: Absolutely. And I mean I understand that times are changing and we have to adapt to those times. And I'm not by any means an economics expert, but I know that when there's 400 people that aren't paying taxes to a government or buying homes in a community or buying gas at a gas station or going to the grocery store that hits an economy. And the bigger conversation is what is brought back into our economy, into our communities, into our provinces, and our country when those resources are still being extracted in order for revenue for the corporation? Where are the people that are sitting there with their blood, sweat, and tears and working as hard as they can in order to benefit and provide a good living for their families and help create these communities that we all call home?

HM: Is it true that some truck operators were actually helping to create the technology that these new autonomous vehicles will end up using?

SK: As they roll out, I understand that our members need to participate in it in order to make sure that it's safe. And you know one of the hopes that we would have as a union — as a labour force — is that rather than using technology to eliminate positions, help enhance the positions, and help create more work, and help do better things. If there’s an underlying safety concern you know help address those with technology versus just eliminating the employees. But well that stuff is rolled out, there will be members that introduce those technologies and ensure that it remains to be safe as it moves on.

HM: Yeah you know we hear quite often these days about people being asked to train others who might take over their jobs, either offshore or in terms of machinery taking over these jobs. How does it feel to have to do that?

SK: Well, I think that's a pretty easy question: I don't think it feels very good.

HM: Yeah. So what would you say to the people who argue that these technological advancements are inevitable because you seem to acknowledge that, but where do you draw the line? It's a delicate balance I suppose?

SK: Oh, absolutely. I think technological advancements can help enhance a company. And I think it can help enhance the people that help create that company. I think if there's a better partnership between the workforce and the advancements, you can get better operations can better extraction processes. Often, people hear about how productive these autonomous trucks are — driverless trucks are. If given the same conditions to our people that are in the manned fleets that these autonomous units are running is I'm sure we would be more productive as well. We're constantly stressing that give us the same conditions and give us some opportunities; we can show how productive our workforce can be.

HM: If you could speak directly to Suncor CEO Steve Williams, what would you say?

SK: You know I think I would speak to all of the leaders. Let's talk about how we can partner and create better advancements to help enhance our workforce, rather than eliminate it. By doing that you're creating a good corporate partnership with communities. You're creating better employment. You're doing all the things and you're helping people maintain jobs that can go and help buy all the products that we're creating. This is about maintaining that good relationship with not just your workforce but your community and everybody around you. We want to see that happen. We want to work the company and make sure that that's the kind of stuff we're working towards in the future.

HM: You wrote of your concerns for the future and for your own children and what they might do with their lives. What do you tell them about what's going?

SK: Today, it's tough. We tell them that you know with technology advancements we have to look at where they're going to go in the future and how they can take part and making sure that for future generations, like my kids, they can help create better jobs for people like me, like them, and their children.

HM: All right. Mr. Kelly, I appreciate you taking the time to talk with us. Thanks.

SK: Thank you for having me on today, Helen. It was a pleasure.

JD: Steve Kelley is a truck driver for Suncor. We reached him in Fort McMurray.

[Music: Triphop]

Jagmeet Singh — Erin Weir

JD: NDP Member of Parliament Erin Weir is being investigated for allegations of harassment towards women. When NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh spoke to the media this afternoon, he didn't offer many details beyond saying that the harassment wasn't sexual in nature. Here's some of Mr Singh's had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

JAGMEET SIGH: A little over 36 hours ago, an email was sent to members of the NDP caucus containing an allegation that a Member of Parliament from our caucus, Erin Weir, engaged in harassing behaviour towards women, specifically members of the NDP staff team. This is a troubling allegation that I take very seriously. I've spoken with caucus, and we will be appointing an independent investigator to conduct a fair and full examination of the facts available. While that process is ongoing, Mr. Weir’s duties as NDP MP will be temporarily suspended. Once the work of the investigator has completed, the MP’s role in caucus will be re-evaluated. I'm committed to creating a safe workplace for all, and ensuring that all survivors feel safe to come forward.

REPORTER: What more can you say about the context of the allegation? What more can you say about what happened?

JS: At this point in time, we don't have a survivor or someone who's coming forward specifically. The act of whether it's harassment or violence takes away and strips power from those who have experienced this — survivors. And to re-establish or to rectify this imbalance of power it requires giving power back to those who have gone through this — survivors. And so that means making sure the process is survivor-driven, and that we respect that.

REPORTER: Can you just explain to us what was told to you?

JS: Yeah, there was an email that we received. And in that email, there were some concerns that were raised. Those concerns that were raised were not by someone that personally experienced something, but someone was conveying these concerns. Since these concerns are so serious, I want to take action.

REPORTER: And harassment is it sexual harassment or psychological harassment?

JS: No, we're not clear, nothing right now from what I've read does not suggest that it's sexual in nature; it's just harassment. Merci beaucoup

JD: That was NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh in Ottawa earlier this afternoon. Our colleagues in Ottawa then learned that the e-mail Mr Singh referred to came from NDP Member of Parliament Christine Moore. In it, Ms. Moore wrote, quote, "I would not feel comfortable to meet with you alone." End Quote. The CBC's Susan Lunn asked Erin Weir what he made of that e-mail when she caught up with him late this afternoon. Here's his response.

SOUNDCLIP

ERIN WEIR: Well, it was very surprising. The email was very vague, so it's difficult to be subject to a general accusation without having a specific allegation.

SUSAN LUNN: And so what do you think about the fact that there is nothing specific, no specific person, no event that's part of that e-mail?

EW: Well, that's really the challenge. It's very difficult to assess, let alone respond to an accusation, without knowing what's being alleged. However, I'm confident that I haven't harassed anyone, so I welcome an investigation. I’ll participate in the process. And I'm confident it will clear my name.

SL: So what do you think is behind this then?

EW: Well, I'm always reluctant to speculate on another person's motivation. But given that the attack came as a reply to me announcing my candidacy for caucus chair, it does seem politically-motivated.

JD: That was NDP MP Erin Weir, speaking to the CBC's Susan Lunn this afternoon in Ottawa.

[Music: Strings]

Crosby kid

Guest: Guillaume Ouimet

JD: Guillaume Ouimet thought he had the ice all to himself. Mr. Ouimet is the captain of the Mont-Tremblant, Quebec Junior Double-A hockey team. One morning last month, he hit a local outdoor rink for his regular morning skate. As usual, he was out there on his own, until someone showed up and crashed his skate: it was Sidney Crosby. We reached Guillaume Ouimet in Mont Tremblant.

HM: Guillaume Ouimet, when did you realize that you weren't going to have that rink all to yourself?

GUILLSUME OUIMET: Actually, some mornings I like to outdoor rink alone because I think ithe outdoors are pretty good at that time. And just alone practicing some little things being by myself is just a way for me to disconnect.

HM: And then someone shows up. What did they do?

GO: At the first place when I saw someone get out of their car, I was just surprised to see someone at that time because I'm usually alone. And then when he started walking towards me, at one point, I realized it’s him. So my head goes crazy. I'm just thinking like it's Sidney Crosby. As a young hockey fan, I realized it was him real quick — I recognize him. And like everything was shaking in my head.

HM: How close was he to you when you realized it was him?

GO: I realized it was from far away. There's no other Sidney Crosby I guess.

HM: What did he say to you?

GO: I just came by, so I introduce myself. Actually, I just said like hey, Sidney, and then introduced himself. But I knew he was for sure. He just asked me some questions about the rink: who was making the ice? If I was alone and everything? So I told him I was alone and I understood he didn't want to be bothered by like tons of people because he really wanted to skate and really wanted to practice little details. So after that, he told me he was going to get his equipment in the car and he came back.

HM: So then what did the two of you do on the ice?

GO: The first time, we just were just making some passes — just having some fun, and he told me how much he loved being outdoors. Because that's one of the things he missed the most from Rimouski, where he played junior major. He told me in Pittsburgh, there’s no outdoor rink due to the weather. So he just appreciated feeling the cold on your face and playing with pucks. And after that, told me some little things he wanted to work on, so I thought it was a bit ironic to see the best player in the world still wanted to work on the things he thinks he is not good at. But is good for sure — he's the best player. But I think that attention to detail and I think it explains why he is the best player in the world.

HM: Yeah, so did he run any drills or anything on the ice with you?

GO: Yeah, that’s it. He explained to me a drill he wanted to do, so we did it. We did them. He was doing the drill, I was passing the puck, he would stick handle and then shoot, and afterward, it was my turn to do the same thing. So we did a couple of drills like this for the rest of the time.

HM: How was that for you? Were you self-conscious about your own skills?

GO: I think I was just so shocked at that time. I didn't really think about it. I just wanted to make a good impression like to be gentle with them. And also, to be able to keep his pace because I was intimated by the man and also by his talent — he was so good on the ice.

HM: Did you learn anything about your own technique being that close to him?

GO: A bit, he showed me some little tricks, but I think more than the technique on ice what will remember for sure is just what he showed me as a human being. I thought he was really kind with me. Really humble like I was telling him how good he is in different aspects of his game. And he was always saying that all the NHL players are the same. And he wasn't putting himself beyond them — he was just one of them. He didn't think he was better than the others, and I think that's a good quality to have.

HM: Did people believe you when you told them what had happened?

GO: First time I told the people actually I didn’t have the picture on me because my phone was turned off because of the cold. So his girlfriend sent me the picture the picture is 2 days later. So during those two days I had some friends that thought that I was lying. Most of them believed me because I'm not that type of guy. But still, when I had the picture, everybody else finished by what an experience he had. But at the first time, they were like it's too good it's too good to be true.

HM: So who took the pictures?

GO: It's his girlfriend.

HM: His girlfriend.

GO: Yeah.

HM: Wow! And so he sent them along to you. They're great pictures too. There's no doubt that is Sidney Crosby.

GO: she took a good picture.

HM: Yeah. Now, did he say beyond you know this opportunity to be outdoors and to practice quietly, did he say anything else about what it was like for him to be back in Quebec?

GO: Yeah, he told me really he loved Quebec; he really loved his time in Rimouski. The employees of the arena came by. They were just going outside, so I let them know that come, come there's someone and then they realized it was them. and Sidney insisted to talk in French with them for like about 10 minutes. So I thought that was really kind of him. He told me he really loves French and that he still has it a bit. Actually, he was really able to speak French, and I think that's a good thing to have.

HM: Who was your favorite hockey player before this?

GO: I’d say Sidney was one of them for sure. I'm also a Montreal Canadiens fan, so I'd say P.K. Subban also was one of my favourites.

HM: Right, now you have to hope that P.K. Subban shows up

GO: Yeah. But I thought to be with Sidney, someone so like low-profile in real life, not that I don't like P.K., but P.K. is more like a show man. But to see Sidney just so humble, talking to me like I was his friend and really like friendship status, I thought it was a really, really impressive.

HM: What a lovely story. I'm so happy you were able to tell us about it.

GO: Thank you.

HM: Thanks for joining us. Bye bye.

GO: Thank you.

JD: Guillaume Ouimet is the captain of Les Diables, the Mont-Tremblant, Quebec Junior AA hockey team. We reached Mr. Ouimet in Mont Tremblant.

Back To Top »

Part two: West Virginia opioids, Alcatraz letter

West Virginia opiods

Guest: Don Perdue

JD: The town of Williamson in West Virginia is not a big place. It's a former coal-mining town. Its population is just under 3,000 people. And yet, over a 10-year period, more than 20 million prescription opioid pills were delivered to two pharmacies in Williamson, they’re only four blocks from each other. That's according to an congressional committee investigating the opioid crisis. And it's a startling reminder of the magnitude of a problem that only appears to be getting worse. As a pharmacist in West Virginia, Don Perdue had a front-row seat as this epidemic grew. Later, he tried to address the problem as a state delegate. He's now the executive director of the Wayne County Economic Development Authority. We reached Mr. Perdue in Wayne, West Virginia.

HM: Mr. Perdue, when did you first start to see signs of the opioid crisis?

DON PERDUE: Well, I was a practicing pharmacist in West Virginia for a very long time. And I initially started seeing the growth of the problem I'm going to say around 2002. Personally as a pharmacist, I saw whole families deteriorate before my eyes. I saw people bringing in prescriptions for extremely large quantities of narcotics. And I saw that we were utilizing in the pharmacies I worked in we're utilizing more and more and more of those controlled substances. So around 2002 is when it really struck my consciousness. Now, I was already a legislator at that time, but I was still practicing. I first saw it come across my counters in my practice and in my profession. But then, as I started seeing statistics at the legislative level, it became apparent that it was just taking off. And I'll tell you something: around 2005, it was really evident something was wrong. And I can say that because it was an outfit called the Prevention Partnership, it was a quasi-public non-profit. And they convened a huge meeting in Charleston, West Virginia, our state capitol, and it was well attended by a lot of political types — the governor was there. And they reported that it was going to cost because of what they were seeing then in 2005 that it was going to cost up to 20 million dollars a year for five years to get ahead of the problem that had already existed. That organization within six months was defunded and disappeared.

HM: And that was 13 years ago — almost 13 years ago. Since that time, things have continued to deteriorate. What are you seeing around you that that shows you just how bad it is?

DP: Well, we started seeing the real statistics about what was going on in West Virginia. In other words, we saw during that time frame — this is 2007 to 2012 — that 433 narcotic pills for every man, woman, and child in West Virginia were shipped into West Virginia. We saw that in the town of Kermit, West Virginia, in two years, nine million doses of hydrocodone were delivered to one pharmacy there. And that's a pharmacy by the way that I had worked at years before. There are more than 17 hundred people in West Virginia who died during that six year period. That's about 1 per cent of the state’s population. And the thing that drives me crazy when we talk about this is that the folks that had the ability to stop this or the ability actually to start it, saw West Virginia, especially southern West Virginia, as a target-rich environment. Southern West Virginia — the four counties in Southern West Virginia — are the worst in the state. And the state of West Virginia is the worst in the country. So that target-rich environment led itself to something that I believe I would call “the gold plated chain of pain”. You have rogue doctors who develop pill mills, wholesalers that would ship to those pill mills, and a board a pharmacy that didn't do anything.

HM: So as a pharmacist — as a practicing pharmacist yourself — what were you back then able to do when someone handed you a prescription for OxyContin or Vicodin. Did you have any recourse?

DP: Only personal recourse to say you could do one of two things: you could lie, which happens much more often than anybody would like to admit and say well, I don't have that. I don't have that strength. I don't have that dose. You could be very honest about it and say you to whoever this individual is — and it it very happened very often. You've come from more than 50 miles away, I don't think this is legitimate. I really can't fill this prescription. So those were the two avenues that you could travel down if you were a practicing pharmacist — the only two that were even close to being viable. The third, of course, was go ahead and fill it. And the pharmacy chains in those days certainly encouraged filling these prescriptions; most of them were high-priced. All these things sort of snowballed to the extent it became wrote, it became accepted, it became oh, that's just the way it is.

HM: Let me bring you up to the present day, we learned this week that the town of Williamson, which has a population of just less than 3,000, received 20 million pills in ten years. How is that possible?

DP: Well, it's possible because, again, we had a system that was not monitoring what was going on. We had a drug industry that was beyond belief and beneath contempt. And that was just solely targeting their profits. And then we had a system that did not lend itself to reportage that was meaningful. It just wasn't happening. And that meant that it was a terrific breakdown in terms of our understanding of what was going on.

HM: Do you assume that those 20 million pills over that decade remained in West Virginia? that they were being provided to people in the state population?

DP: No, not at all because when I was practicing as a pharmacist, we would see people that would come from large distances, from Cincinnati, from Lexington, because what was happening was in other parts of the country — in other states — that their eyes were more open to the problem, they didn't fill those prescriptions. So they had to go someplace where they could get them. And the pill mills sort of followed that suit. They would open up shop in a place where they were OK. And then when somebody started looking at them, they’d pick up and move. And they would become itinerant drug suppliers.

HM: Do you see a way out of this for West Virginia?

DP: I do. As the Prevention Partnership said so many years ago, you’ve got to invest in it. You have got to invest in the problem. It's a four-pronged approach: prevention, Intervention, treatment, and recovery. Noting that treatment and recovery are not the same thing. If you approach it from those four prongs and invest in it, you can get ahead of it. You can get upstream of the problem. Right now, we're all drowning in deep water.

HM: Mr. Perdue, I very much appreciate you speaking with us about the situation. Thank you very much.

DP: Thank you, ma'am.

HM: OK. Bye bye.

DP: Bye bye.

JD: Don Perdue is a former pharmacist, and the executive director of the Wayne County Economic Development Authority. We reached him in Wayne, West Virginia.

[Music: Jazz]

Cat Cameo

JD: In March of last year, a video of Robert Kelly went viral. Mr. Kelly is an expert on Korean relations. But this video went viral not because of his insights, but because — in the middle of a live interview with the BBC — Mr. Kelly’s daughter came strutting into the room in a bright yellow shirt, she was followed by her younger sibling, and in turn, by their panicking mother. We were reminded of that story during an interview with Eleanor Bradford on this program yesterday. Ms. Bradford was speaking with us about the gender pay gap controversy at the BBC. And there were some interruptions. Here's what you may have heard.

SOUNDCLIP

ELEANOR BRADFORD: And that means that it has to be tackling this.

[Sound: Seriously, this cat sounds like a baby]

EB: Oh, do you hear the cat going?

HM: Oh, my goodness! That cat is very unhappy.

JD: Yes, that cat was very unhappy. And what you didn't hear was that Ms. Bradford's cat interrupted that interview more than once to make his or her point.

SOUNDCLIP

EB: And that's because there's so much scrutiny of the images and messages that or children are subjected to.

[Soud: this cat is gold]

EB: Sorry, my cat is having a fit.

HM: I’m glad it was the cat and not a child. OK. Yes, please pick up.

EB: There’s a cat next do that torments her. And she starts screaming at it.

JD: After that interview, the CBC's Hallie Cotnam tweeted, quote, "Loved that very vocal cat that just cried for its supper." And listener @ashdesjardine wrote, quote, "As It Happens ... the feline edition. It was adorable. My curious kitty would've tried to get airtime too!" We've since gotten back in touch with Ms. Bradford, who tells us her cat's name is Lily. Lily is 12. She's a British Blue. She's grumpy, she loves lying on her back, and you can see some photographs of Lily on our website — where you can also hear our original interview with Eleanor Bradford about pay issues at the BBC. And if you've got an animal whose vocalizations can rival Lily's, we want to hear them! Send us a clip. We're on Twitter and Facebook, both those accounts: @cbcasithappens. Our Talkback number is 416-205-5687. Our email address is aih@cbc.ca.

[Music: Hip-hop]

Alcatraz letter

Guest: Betty Yu

JD: It took months of planning and preparation, but it turns out that might have paid off. In 1962, Frank Morris and the Anglin brothers, John and Clarence, became the only three men to escape from Alcatraz. They were never heard from again. And according to the official story, they drowned. But they've been the subject of folklore and speculation ever since. Now, a new letter has come to light, or a newish letter. It was sent to the San Francisco police in 2013 by someone claiming to be John Anglin. Betty Yu is a reporter with CBS. She revealed the letter's existence last week. We reached Betty Yu in San Francisco.

HM: Betty Yu, how did you get your hands on this letter that purports to be from John Anglin?

BETTY YU: Well, I received this letter from a source. And so I can't reveal who this individual is, but it has been authenticated. And I did speak to the woman at the San Francisco Police Department who remembers opening this letter in 2013. And it really struck her. And so she handed it off to her boss or manager at the time. And then it went through the proper authorities from there.

HM: So what does the letter say?

BY: So the letter, basically, says that this is John Anglin, and he's 83. It says that all three inmates survived the escape, and also lived into old age. He says that he's the only one that survived that Frank and Clarence passed away. And he says that he needs help — he needs medical attention. And he's asking for this to be announced on TV, of course, this is back in 2013. And in exchange, he would reveal his exact location.

HM: So that letter, as you say, is in 2013. It's almost five years. What do we know about what's happened to the letter in that time period?

BY: So my understanding is that the letter after it went to San Francisco Police, it was sent to the FBI. And from the FBI, it went to the U.S. Marshals, which is the only investigating agency today. However, because the U.S. Marshals does not have a lab, the FBI had to run tests: fingerprints, DNA I'm told, and also handwriting analysis. And when they ran the tests, they weren't able to conclude one way or another whether it was authentic. So for those reasons the marshals doesn't believe that this is the real John Anglin.

HM: People have wondered for years — there's been lots of speculation — how they pulled this thing off? I mean some of the some things were known, but others not. So what did we learn about the escape itself in the letter?

BY: He leaves very few details about how they did it? In fact, I spoke to the nephew a couple days ago, and he says I want to ask him how did they pull it off? He only says that the three of them made it, but barely. Beyond that, he doesn't go into detail about what happened after they floated away from the island?

HM: Can you remind us what is known about how they got out of Alcatraz? How did they get other cells?

BY: So this was a plan that was months-long. And they had a secret workshop on top of their cells, which was away from a space where guards could see. Over months, they stole things, they kind of MacGyvered their way out of there, and they, for example, used a broken vacuum cleaner motor to make a drill. And they drilled small holes around the vents in the back of their cells. And just chipped away at it for months and months, and that widened the vents in the back of their cells. The night that they were ready, they squeezed through those in the back into a space that wasn't really guarded by anyone. And so they climbed up pipes and plumbing, they ran across the roof, and then they made their way down a smokestack. They made a raft out of 50 or so raincoats, this is according to the FBI. They had homemade lifejackets, they made paddles out of wood, and beyond that, we don't know what happened to them after they got on this raft.

HM: But officials assumed that they had drowned because they couldn't find any trace of them. Has there been anything other than this letter that's ever surfaced that suggests anything other than that?

BY: Yes, there have been a number of leads. None of which have led to the bodies or these men. And so that's why the case remains open. A couple years ago, the History Channel did a special featuring a family friend who came across a photo of the two brothers in Brazil. And this was in 2015, and a forensic expert said that this is likely the two men. Others have said that you know there's no way they could have made it down there. The family believes that that was indeed John and Clarence Anglin in Brazil a couple years ago. But to this day, I mean nobody knows where they are.

HM: Why is it so captivating all these years later?

BY: This is one of America's greatest mysteries, and, of course, one of the most notorious in the Bay Area. And I think it speaks to you know at the time, this is where the worst of the worst were sent. This jail was supposed to be inescapable — it was on an island. And the waters in the very cold, and they're very rough, especially during high tide. And so I think it's still very fascinating today because there is a chance that these men are alive. They're in their late 80s or early 90s. So they're getting up there in age, but it's not impossible that they may still be alive. And we may one day know the real story.

HM: Do you think most people want them to have escaped and remained alive all those years?

BY: I know that as far as the Feds go, from the very beginning, they have always said that these men did not make it. They were you know washed out to sea and drowned. And that has not changed over decades. I know the family believes that they didn't spend all these months engineering this plan only to have it fall apart the second they got out. They know them to be smart, and they know that they have always made something out of nothing. And so they believe that their ingenuity you know took them out of there and onto shore.

HM: Well, it's a great story. Betty, thank you for bringing us up to date.

BY: You're so welcome.

HM: OK. Bye bye.

BY: Bye.

JD: Betty Yu is the reporter who first revealed the existence of the letter claiming to be from John Anglin, Alcatraz escapee. We reached Ms. Yu in San Francisco.

[Music: Guitar]

Atari record

JD: You may want to turn down your radios everyone, what you were about to hear is the viscerally thrilling roar of a drag race.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: I miss 80’s video game noises]

JD: You can practically smell the rubber burning. That's the sound of the 1980 video game "Dragster", which vividly recreated the excitement of drag racing. Except that your clutch and gearshift were a joystick, and your accelerator was a plastic button. Since 1982, one player has held the speed record for "Dragster": Todd Rogers — also known as "Toddzilla". His record was a scorching 5-point-5-1 seconds. And it wasn't just acknowledged by the video-game-record-tracking website Twin Galaxies — it was acknowledged by Guinness as well. That high score — and his many, many others — made Todd Rogers a seemingly unstoppable monster in the world of gaming. But like Godzilla, Toddzilla was — in this case, anyway — just a guy in a monster costume. On Monday, Twin Galaxies made a shocking announcement: Todd Rogers' longstanding record was bogus. Detailed investigations and technical research had proven it was actually impossible to finish "Dragster" in 5-point-5-1 seconds. And the coup de grace may have come from former Twin Galaxies Senior Referee named Robert Mruczak, who issued a long statement expressing doubts about that record and others, despite his long friendship with Mr. Rogers, whom he called "the brother that I never had." Now, Twin Galaxies has removed every one of Todd Rogers' records from the site, and banned him for life. It's like something out of Shakespeare: a tragedy of shattered alliances, of hubris, and overreach. Or like something out of a classic movie — in which a seemingly unstoppable monster is brought down by human ingenuity, and disappears beneath the waves forever. So long,Toddzilla.

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Part three: Lottery cancer death, Elon Musk flamethrower, yodelling degree

Lottery cancer death

Guest: Danielle Scott

JD: Last month, a New York State man's numbers finally came up. He won a million dollars on a scratch-off ticket. But, for Donald Savastano, the next few weeks were not lucky — not at all — they were tragic. Danielle Scott is a cashier at the convenience store where Mr. Savastano bought the lottery ticket. We reached her in Masonville, New York. And we apologize in advance for the quality of the phone line.

HM: Danielle Scott, tell us about the day when Donald Savastano walked into your store to buy a lottery ticket.

DANIELLE SCOTT: Donald had come in. He had previously won twenty dollars on a ticket. So he came in to exchange it to get a couple more tickets. He ended up buying the Mary Millionaire ticket, which ended up being the winner, and another ticket, which I don't remember what he bought. He went out to his truck, and he scratched the ticket and he came back in and wanted to know if we had a scanner. So I pointed out the scanner to him and he went over and scanned it, and he goes ugh. I go what? Did you win money? And he goes did I win money? I won a million dollars. He came over, he showed me the ticket, and he goes 24 up here in my numbers, right? I go yup, I see. He goes 24 down here, jackpot. So I just one a million dollars. It was really exciting.

HM: He sounds like he being very casual about it. Was he excited?

DS: He was excited. I think he was in disbelief at first.

HM: What about you? Were you the same?

DS: When I saw it, I knew that that was a winner. So I was just kind of shaky, and like in awe. I couldn't believe that like I’d actually sold a million dollar winner.

HM: So did he tell you what he planned to do with the money?

DS: He was planning on getting a very nice, cool truck. He wanted to go on vacation. He's worked his whole life, and he wanted to use it as a retirement plan.

HM: And he also said he was going to use the money to go to the doctor. Did he mention that to you?

DS: No, I didn’t know about that right away. About a week after he had received the money, he had a friend come and talk to me. And they told me that he had gone to the doctor because he hadn't been feeling well, and he could finally afford to go. And they found out that he had stage four brain and lung cancer. So he was doing very aggressive chemo and radiation.

HM: Oh, that must have been a terrible shock.

DS: It was.

HM: Gosh. Now, did the friend say anything more about his condition at that time? They came back and told me when he had went into the hospital that it didn't look good. He had fluid on the brain, and they didn't think he was going to make it.

HM: When did he pass away?

DS: About a week after that, I found out he had gone home with hospice, and he had died the next morning.

HM: Do you have any understanding of how much Mr. Savastano’s waiting to see a doctor might have had with not having enough money?

DS: Yes. He was self-employed as a contractor, so he didn't have any insurance. So he had not gone.

HM: Such an irony, and so cruel that you know he won this money, and it was going to give him some opportunity. And then he ended up dying. What are you thinking these days when you look back on the situation?

DS: I was really hoping that maybe the money was going to end up saving his life. And you know just appreciate every moment that you got.

HM: Do you have a sense of what kind of person Donald Savastano was?

DS: I do. Some of my friends were very good friends with him. So I mean I didn't know him personally, but I've heard nothing but wonderful things about what a hard worker he was, and that he was a good, caring person — and had a big heart.

HM: Do you know if he left any family behind?

DS: I know he had a girlfriend and her two sons. They'd been together for 12 years.

HM: Well, it's a very, very sad story. I appreciate you talking to us about it, Danielle. Thank you very much.

DS: Yes, thank you.

HM: OK. Bye bye.

DS: Bye.

JD: Danielle Scott is a cashier at a convenience store in Masonville, New York. That is where we reached her. We have more on the story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih

[Music: Folksy guitar]

New O Canada

JD: A change in Canada's national anthem is heading for royal assent. After a very contentious debate, I think you could call it. Yesterday, the Senate passed a bill making the anthem gender-neutral. "True patriot love / In all thy sons command" has been replaced with "True patriot love / In all of us command". Here is the Vancouver Childrens’ Chorus performing the new version of the anthem.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Kids singing]

JD: There you go, that was the Vancouver childrens' chorus performing the newly tweaked, gender-neutral version of "O Canada".

[Music: Folk-hop]

From Our Archives: Gene Sharp obit

JD: "A dictator's worst nightmare." That's how CNN described Gene Sharp in an article back in 2012. Mr. Sharp was a political scientist who spent his career exploring how to bring down oppressive governments. The key, he believed, was non-violence, and he went into detail about that idea in an influential book called "From Dictatorship to Democracy." Over the years, that work has been linked by some to revolutions, including the Arab Spring. Gene Sharp died over the weekend at his home in Boston. He was 90-years-old. Back in 2011, Carol spoke with Mr. Sharp. Here's a part of that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

CAROL OFF: As events unfold in the Middle East and Northern Africa, do you recognize your tactics and strategies and those revolutions?

GENE SHARP: I have heard that my writings have been helpful, but we don't have any firm documentation on that. It's just simply the principles of noncooperation and defiance of keeping non-violent discipline. Those are all very, very important. And those I recognize.

CO: You mentioned casting off fear and apathy. That's two key aspects of the tactics that you have outlined in your book. How important is that in the Arab world for them to have been able to push out their leaders?

GS: It appears, particularly in Egypt, that people kept saying we’re no longer afraid. We’re not afraid of the power of the regime to threaten you and to kill you. It’s not power anymore. It’s dissolved.

CO: The power has dissolved when you're not afraid.

GS: The power has dissolved because people won’t obey you anymore. And that is what enabled the Egyptian movement to become so strong.

CO: You have not just been studied by the young people who have tried to overthrow their dictators or their governments, but you've also been studied by many of those same regimes Myanmar, and Iran, Venezuela's Hugo Chavez. They've all written about you and said that you're part of some foreign conspiracy to overthrow them.

GS: If they saw our offices and how poor we are, they would have to be a little embarrassed.

CO: Why do you think that these regimes — these world leaders — are so afraid of you?

GS: I’ve been studying what makes this kind of struggle into a major set of tools for freedom and for justice? And to do that you don't need guerrilla warfare. You don't need the barrel of a gun and all that kind of thing. Dictators don't like people to know that they can free themselves. That is very threatening to a dictator, and rightly so.

JD: From our archives, that was political scientist Gene Sharp, in conversation with Carol back in February of 2011. Gene Sharp, a political scientist and the author of "From Dictatorship to Democracy," has died. He was 90-years-old.

[Music: Ambient]

Elon Musk flamethrowers

Guest: Miguel Santiago

JD: "When the zombie apocalypse happens, you'll be glad you bought a flamethrower. Works against hordes of the undead or your money back!" What a hilarious tweet from billionaire entrepreneur Elon Musk! There's no such thing of the zombie apocalypse, of course, and no one would just sell something as dangerous as a flamethrower like that, would they!? Weirdly, what I just said is only half-true. Of course, there is no zombie apocalypse. But to support his infrastructure and tunnel construction operation, The Boring Company, Mr. Musk sold a lot of flamethrowers like that — ten million dollars' worth of them, in just four days. And California assemblymember Miguel Santiago is not too happy about it. We reached Mr. Santiago in Los Angeles, California.

HM: Mr. Santiago, what did you think at first when you heard Elon Musk's company was going to sell flame throwers?

MIGUEL SANTIAGO: Well, to be quite frank, with you when I first heard the news, I thought it was a joke. I thought it was a prank. I've got a good laugh at it. And then I actually realized that this was real. We had our staff check out what it would take for somebody to buy a flamethrower? And we had a staff member one click away from owning a flamethrower. And that's what we discovered holy moly, this is dangerous, particularly here in the state of California, where we've just been through some of the most horrific, catastrophic fires in our history. And now, with the potential of flame throwers all over the place, we were alarmed. And we decided to take quick and decisive action because look, we know that flame throwers or torches or like equipment currently exist. What is different about this is that it looks like a toy gun, it feels like a toy gun, and it's made to have fun.

HM: Do you know how much of a flame this thing throws?

MS: Well, what we know is what we've seen on the Internet. And what I've seen is that about two feet. And it's still problematic nonetheless if it's made for fun or recreation.

HM: And yet, he says they're sold out. So what do you do now?

MS: Well, they haven't been shipped. They don't get shipped till the spring, from my understanding. I've not spoken to him, so I don't know if they've been built already or they're in design or if they're currently being fabricated?

HM: So what can you do to stop the shipments?

MS: Well, what we can do is put some permits out on it. And we can actually, through legislation, provided that we can get it to the governor's desk, insure that legislation is retroactive. This has been done before.

HM: And what would the legislation entail? What would you set out in that?

MS: What we're looking to the right now is to have a balanced conversation with stakeholders that actually have a bonafide reason to create a torch or a flamethrower. If you’re in the restaurant industry I think it would be permissible as a tool. If you’re law enforcement, particularly first responders, firefighters, oftentimes, this is used to clear brush fire. Areas where it snow there's legitimate uses that’s designed very differently. But I think what we want to make sure is ban the ability for somebody, or at least permit the process, for folks to have a flamethrower when we think that might be potential danger to an individual or to any infrastructure around us.

HM: Just in case people don't know what a flamethrower looks like, or this particular one that Elon Musk is advertising, can you describe it?

MS: Sure, think about it a gun that gun looks like a futuristic Nerf ballthrower or water gunthrower. Except, it doesn't throw a cushion and it doesn't throw out water, it throws out a flame. And so they've been sold as a fun toy. And I think that that's what's going to be problematic. It's kind of like your kid's Super Soaker, but only this time it throw flames.

HM: Now, Musk says he's also going to ship them with complimentary Boring fire extinguishers. Does that resolve the problem at all for you?

MS: Absolutely not. I think it's smart to send them out with a fire extinguisher. But I think it's an acknowledgement that there will be fire potentially if you have these. And that's exactly what the concern is for us. In all conversations that I have had, I think people for the most part thought it was a joke, and are alarmed that somebody would be selling something as a fun toy when there could potentially be great bodily harm or cause the next wildfire.

HM: Tell me a little bit more about the emotions and how they're running right now given the fires. We've all seen the images, but we're not living where you are and seeing the damage close up from these fires. You say it's particularly insensitive. Are you hearing that from your constituents?

MS: Well, I'm hearing from a lot of different folks different conversations. I mean there are some people who do think it might be cool to have one. And that's a fair assessment of what I heard. When I asked the person why? There was no other reason that they saw it, and they thought it’d be cool to buy one. And it isn't until you get into a conversation with those people that they realize well you know I could see the potential for harm in this. But there are others who were a little bit alarmed. In my community alone, for example, last week, I believe Wednesday night, there was a big fire at church. So the conversation about fires becomes a little bit more sensitive when a church was just recently vandalized and set on fire. And so folks in some neighborhoods that I talked to certainly have a concern that this could cause another fire, and they’re also concerned from a public safety perspective that it should land mean in the wrong hands and somebody thinks it's a good prank and torch something or threaten to torch somebody if not handing over a purse or so, so I think there's a variety of different conversations. And I bump into people who still think it's a joke.

HM: One thing that's come out of this is the fact that flamethrowers aren't just unregulated to a large degree in California, but it seems in almost every state. Is that surprising to you?

MS: Well, I think it was surprising to everybody to find out. I mean when we called over to the firefighters, I think they were alarmed and surprised as well that anybody can go get a flamethrower or torch, however you want to call it that is shy of 10 feet, and is completely legal at least the state of California to purchase it. So there is no regulation on it as to who gets it or what use it for. And certainly, like I said earlier, there are legitimate issues. But I just can't fathom that somebody would want a flamethrower for the sake of having fun inside of a house. That's just danger waiting to happen. What's really tough about the situation, and I would say maybe even use the word disappointing, is anyone in a in a position of influence — any role model — has a great responsibility to attract attention to those things that are good. If you need to get attention, ask your followers to go volunteer at a homeless shelter. Ask your followers to go volunteer and you know pick up trash in the park. Let's go do something positive. Let’s not ask our followers to go do something that could potentially harm them.

HM: Miguel Santiago, thanks very much for talking with us. I appreciate it.

MS: Sure, you have a wonderful day.

HM: You too. Bye bye.

MS: Bye bye.

JD: That’s California Assemblymember Miguel Santiago, who wants to introduce legislation to ban or regulate the use of the Boring Company’s flamethrowers in California. We reached Mr. Santiago in Los Angeles.

[Music: Ambient]

Bouncer death

JD: He was just doing his job. Early Saturday morning, Vancouver bouncer Kalwinder Thind was trying to break up a fight when he was stabbed. He died in hospital. Last night, hundreds showed up at a vigil to pay tribute to the 23-year-old bouncer. Simran Bhullar is Mr. Thind's brother-in-law. Here is part of what he had to say to CBC Vancouver.

SOUNDCLIP

SIMRAN BHULLAR: He loved being the center of attention. HE would come up to our house when he's here, he's like what up! Out loud. Like you knew he was there. Like, me personally, I've known him pretty much his whole life. You look forward to seeing him. He was as a guy that would make fun of people, but he would do it in such a way everyone's laughing, and the people are laughing, and no one got angry at him because he just came from a good place. And then he had catchphrases. Everyone loved all his friends, family. We've been all sitting around on and off from everything else we're dealing with. But we're talking about the stories, and we could talk for weeks and weeks, months. Like any time thing that would happen personally in our family, he was the one that would step up and be there for any one of us, and the same with his friends. So him doing that, personally, I've always treated him like a younger brother. There's a person that was in pain that he didn't even know he would go up to them and make sure that they were OK. And then a lot of the stories that we're hearing now he never bragged about any of the stories, but we're hearing stories from people where somebody came up to my grandma and she's like he was so good, my son was heading down the wrong path, and he was the one that stepped in there and told him you can keep doing that. You better not make your mom cry, or else I’m the one that’s going to take care of you. And then that person changed. And she saaid Chris changed my son; he gave me my son back. And I'm hearing so many stories like that. It's blowing us away, and we’re already proud. He was already our hero.

JD: That was Simran Bhullar, speaking about his brother-in-law, Kalwinder Thind. The 23-year-old bouncer was killed trying to break up a fight in Vancouver last Saturday morning. Police are asking for witnesses to the stabbing to come forward.

[Music: Ambient]

Yodelling degree

Guest: Michael Kaufmann

JD: Yodelling has always been a lofty art. But now, it's going to be a subject for higher education. A university in Switzerland has announced a new program that will let students make the warbly, alpen songs the focus of their bachelor's or master's degrees. Michael Kaufmann directs the music department at the The Lucerne University of Applied Sciences and Arts. We reached him in Lucerne.

HM: Professor Kaufmann, what was it that made you want to bring yodeling into your university?

MICHAEL KAUFMANN: Well, I have to say that we already have a Department of Folk Music in Lucerne at The University of Music, and so in this in this in this way it was logic that if once we would have some good persons or professors for teaching really on an academic level, we'll start with yodelling.

HM: If you already had a folk music department, I have to wonder why it's taken so long to get yodelling in there?

MK: So this was pretty hard to find really good teachers for the discipline of yodelling, which is like kind of a subdivision of singing, of course. So we have now in Switzerland one yodelling star, which is a professional singer which is called Nadja Rass, and she is really a star in Switzerland for yodelling. But she's a great musician, and so this was a chance to engage her for our school.

HM: Now, what will your yodelling students have to do in the way of coursework?

MK: It's a normal profession music study on the level of a university. So there will be practical musicians, and in this context, they have to sing and yodel, of course. And to know all the different kinds of yodelling, which is the alpine region of Europe and Switzerland, which is very diverse. You know yodelling it's not yodelling. Any valley has its own yodelling culture. So this is the first point. The second point is that, of course, these musicians they have to do that the whole study in music that's to say not only teaching and pedagogical themes, but also, of course, theory and composition and projects and working with ensembles. It's five years of studies, you know?

HM: You know I have to say I didn't realize that yodelling varied so much from valley to valley. Would someone like me be able to hear the difference?

MK: Of course, you’d hear the difference because this is in Switzerland, but the alpine regions, which is also France, and Switzerland, and Italy, and Austria. This is a whole tradition of different cultures of yodelling. So there are different forms, there are different tunes, there are different kinds of yodelling, so what we would really like to have students who learn the whole difference of all these kinds of styles, which is very various. I mean it's about 50 kinds of yodelling we have in the alpine region in Europe.

HM: So will they have to do final yodeling exams to prove they can do various types?

MK: Of course, they have to graduate. It's like a classical musician or a jazz musicians a our Department of Music in Lucerne at The University of Music. They have to have to know what are rules, what is the tradition, what are the different styles? It's like playing Mozart you know Mozart also you can play in different styles. And the yodelling is the same. In jazz, you have the roots of the Jazz music and you have the bebop and you have the new music and you have the free jazz and everything. So these students have to know really in which direction the music goes.

HM: Well, and in fact, speaking of tradition, I understand that you've got a bit of controversy on your hands from some traditional Yodellers?

MK: That's true, but this is normal. You know there are the traditionalists and then there's the innovators in music. And this is in every field like this, so classical music or in new music and folk.

HM: But what don’t they like?

MK: Well, they are a little bit afraid I mean we would change the traditions of what they think is tradition. The tradition is always also a little bit the kind of invention of tradition. That's to say in a way that music lives and music is alive and you have to chage. I mean you have other influences from other countries or from other regions of Europe or all around the world. This folk music isn’t exactly the same. it's like the American tradition of music, you know? In the ‘50s-‘60s, when Bob Dylan or guys like this came and made a revolution of folk music, and it's exactly the same now in Switzerland.

HM: So can people in the yodelling program come from anywhere in the world?

MK: Of course, we would be really pleased of having students who are interested from Canada or from the U.S. or from any place of the world. I mean they have to have to be good musicians, they have to pass an exam for entering the University of Music, of course, and they have to know a lot. They have to be good singers.

HM: Do they have to yodel in the audition?

MK: Of course, they have to yodel. And yodel is like a speciality of singing. It's like a special type of the voice and technique of the voice. They have to know something about it, of course. But if they are good talents and they arrive and they fulfill all their conditions they can come to us.

HM: Well, thank you very much, Professor Kaufmann. I appreciate you joining us.

MK: Yeah, thank you as well and Goodbye.

HM: Okay, goodbye.

MK: Bye bye.

JD: Michael Kaufmann is the director of the music department at the Lucerne University of Applied Sciences and Arts. And we reached him in Lucerne.

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February 01, 2018 episode transcript

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