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The Current Transcript for February 2, 2018

Host: Piya Chattopadhyay

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

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We celebrate the Super Bowl, New England Patriots, World Champions, Super Bowl champions, champions period. And their historic win.

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Well it was a historic win for the New England Patriots in last year's Super Bowl and this Sunday that same team is looking to repeat. But there's more than just history at play in this weekend's championship game. There's politics as well. We're starting today's show at the 50 yard line where politics and pageantry meet ahead of the High Holiday in America, that is Super Bowl Sunday. Then speaking of high, with legal marijuana on the horizon plenty of Canadians say they're looking forward not to smoke but rather to eat it. Just be careful you don't bite off more than you can chew.

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You feel euphoria; you would feel a sense of worth. The problem is if you just go over that, you get panicky. Cannabis when you ingest it can be really powerful and a little bit can go a long way.

PC: That's the lesson a couple of Toronto Police officers learned recently when they ended up calling for backup after eating edibles on the job. We're talking about how Canada should handle bringing the popular yet potent brownies, cookies, gummies and more to a hungry weed market. Also today:

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Without Daniel I would stay home for the rest of my life. I would never leave the house because I can't.

Yes. Daniel is a duck but he's also so much more. He's her emotional support animal and that means when she flies he flies with her, so do countless cats and dogs rabbits and more. Though it seems one airline draws the line at peacocks. Inside the debate about emotional support animals. That is up in an hour's time. Hi I'm Piya Chattopadhyay and this is the Friday edition of The Current.

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Super Bowl politics: Two teams line up on different sides of a divided nation

Guests: Jonathan Zimmerman, Diane Hessan, Martin Rogers

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[Sound: Field noise, cheers and unintelligible commentary]

What an effort. That's a touchdown, Jim. [Unintelligible] Has to lead in a shot and heading to the Super Bowl.

Amazing.

PC: Well some of the on field action. A couple weeks ago when the New England Patriots clinched a spot in this weekend's really really big game, the Patriots who were last year's Super Bowl champs will take on the come from behind Philadelphia Eagles. And while the Super Bowl is always more than just a football game in the United States, this year's contest is shaping up to be something of a metaphor for that country itself. Just all this into U.S. presidential counsellor Kellyanne Conaway's pregame banter.

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The underdog here is the Eagles. And you know me I love an underdog the Patriots are like that woman whose name I don't mention on TV anymore.

PC: Yes that is Donald Trump's key staffer likening New England to Hillary Clinton which is ironic as the president appears to be a big Patriots fan. Though after their victory last year some Patriots players skipped the White House visit including Chris Long. And in a twist this year Chris Long's back in the Super Bowl. This time though he's playing for Philadelphia.

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It seems to be kind of a divided country. I think you can live. You can live in the best country in the world and try to improve it. Try to consider that maybe for some people they are looking to our lands where it is not the best place to live in. You know I think got a lot of work to do.

PC: Well for more on the political backdrop to this weekend's match up. I'm joined by Martin Rogers. He is a sports writer and a columnist for USA Today. And we have reached him in Minneapolis where this year's Super Bowl will be playing.

PC: Hi Martin.

MARTIN ROGERS: Hi, Piya. How are you doing?

PC: I'm good. How's the Viking country?

MARTIN ROGERS: Breathing right now. It is minus 16 it feels like minus 19 according to the weather report.

PC: Oh okay. Well that's the weather. Comes Sunday the Patriots who are a team that played just outside of Boston it's about equal distance to Rhode Island. This is Democrat country. But tell me more about why some people see the Patriots as Donald Trump's team.

MARTIN ROGERS: They really do and it's the result of several links between the patriarch and Donald Trump that stretch back into a time long before his presidency and long before he even thought about political office. But the main one that really came to the fore in the run up to the presidential election was Tom Brady. Brady had a Make America Great Again one of his infamous quote that was seen in his locker. After a game he was asked about Trump. He spoke about how they were friends and gold partners. And when you ask what he thought about Trump becoming essentially president he said he thought it would be great and that they'd be [unintelligible] green on the White House lawn. I think at that point he, like most people, didn't think Trump had any chance. But obviously as things progressed but there are more links.

MARTIN ROGERS: And I think it's going hop in for people who don't know who Tom Brady is. He's the quarterback of the Patriots.

MARTIN ROGERS: Absolutely. Quarterback of the Patriots, a real huge cultural figure in the United States. One of the most recognizable figures, not just in sports, but in pop culture as well. And then other links as well. Bill Belichick the coach of the Patriots has been for many years, one of the more successful coaches in American football history. He wrote a letter to Trump, a handwritten letter, that he gave permission for Trump to read out at a rally in New Hampshire the day before the presidential election back in in late 2016. Robert Kraft the owner of the New England Patriots has been friends with Trump for a long long time. And Trump even consulted with him on his tax bill recently. So there's a lot to go out there [unintelligible] the Patriots' bag.

PC: What did Kraft have to say after Trump past his controversial tax bill recently?

MARTIN ROGERS: Kraft was in favor of it and it was quite interesting scene. It seemed like the two of them had fallen out a little bit early you know. Obviously Trump made some very controversial comments about Clay's kneeling for the national anthem, and was very critical of that and continues to be so. And Trump's sort of back away a little bit from their friendship at that point and to a certain degree didn't defend the player to a protest thing, but defending their right to do so and created the money divorces between Kraft and Trump but it certainly seems like there's very much moved over again now.

PC: Now I want to talk to you about the parallels between politics and football right now. So as we know Donald Trump, there are accusations of corruption made against him and people around him on many fronts. And then there's something called 'Deflate Gate' again for people who don't know this about Tom Brady and the Patriots cheating and putting different amount of air on the footballs that are used in a game. Are there parallels when it comes to those accusations of corruption against Donald Trump and 'Deflate Gate?'

MARTIN ROGERS: I think in a mischievous kind of way it can be. I think it's the way it's [unintelligible]. If people who love America so much in this country that they always find parallels between it and perhaps things that are you know generally speaking more important on a real kind of level. It's certainly something that has been mentioned by gate which was several years ago when the Patriots were found guilty of spying on their opponents and picking up their tactics. Deflate Gate when they were accused of not inflating the footballs properly enough to give them an advantage during a playoff game. And certainly things that people have likened to you know some of the controversies and allegations of corruption in the Trump regime, including potential Russian interference in the election and so on. I mean it is two different things but it gives you an idea of the amount of passionate feelings there is for American football. And certainly around playoff and Super Bowl time in this country that people are drawing the power.

PC: And also because this president in particular has been very public in talking about the NFL and what he sees as appropriate and inappropriate behavior before entering games. And to that point I want to bring up the Eagles. So aside from refusing to go to the White House says a player named Chris Long who played for the Patriots. He now plays for the Eagles. He didn't go to the White House when the Patriots went but what else has Chris Long done that flies in the face of Trump's politics

MARTIN ROGERS: Well yes. Chris Long really is a central figure to this. He's spoken out repeatedly about social justice. He's giving up his salary for the season to promote positive causes and so on.

PC: Including in Charlottesville, Virginia where he is from.

MARTIN ROGERS: Absolutely yes. And he's been very active down there. He has made it quite clear that he has no time for President Trump and his policy. He skipped the White House when the Patriots won and he's become one of the real social consciences of the Philadelphia [unintelligible] which is perhaps one of the most socially conscious teams in the National Football League. Malcolm Jenkins is one of the most high profile players, was the leader of a group called the Players Coalition which was primarily African-American players who decided to speak up and take a stand and try and see what the NFL could do and what the league itself was prepared to do to try and promote social justice in America. It's become a real scene of this. The city of Philadelphia was very much behind this movement behind this scene and behind the stand that these players took.

PC: And just briefly Martin, you're in Minneapolis where the Super Bowl is going to be played on Sunday are the country's divided politics on display in that city at all?

MARTIN ROGERS: A little bit around this time. I mean there's certainly been some talk about it. I mean America right now everyone talks about politics right just like they have before the year before the presidential election in 2016. You do see it on this place, not perhaps is completely over. It might be in some parts of the country but clearly and I've noticed an interesting thing. So there are plenty of Patriots fans who are clearly Democratic supporters and do not like Donald Trump, but the ones that the Republican paid for its fans definitely embraced it. I have seen people wearing Patriot jerseys and Make America Great caps this week out here in Minneapolis. And it is on display and certainly the Eagles fans have embraced this narrative now whether it is a little bit of a contrived narrative or not that if you [unintelligible] then you have to support the Patriots the Republican and then the Eagles is Democrats. Whether that's true or not the Eagles' fans have definitely bought in on it. And they like the fact that they are the underdog in this race. They like the fact that they're a little bit anti-establishment is steady as is franchise and it's definitely played a role.

PC: Martin Rogers, we will leave it there with you. Thank you very much.

MARTIN ROGERS: Thank you.

PC: Martin Rodgers is a sports writer and economist for USA Today. He is in Minneapolis Minnesota where the big game, the Super Bowl, is going to be played on Sunday.

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[Sound: Field noise and cheers]

We will be very very good, you know why? Because the international news told us we could not do it last week and we did against Matt Ryan [screaming] and then this week we did it against the Vikings baby.

PC: That ecstatic Eagles' fan should give you a sense of the excitement that's building ahead of this Sunday's match up between Philadelphia and the New England Patriots. And I'm joined next by two people from both of those teams locales. Jonathan Zimmerman is a professor of education and history at the University of Pennsylvania. He is in Philadelphia. And Diane Hessan is an entrepreneur and the founder and co-chair of Sea Space, which is a market research company. And these days she's using market research to understand voters. She's in Boston. Hello and welcome to both of you.

DIANE HESSAN: Hi.

JONATHAN ZIMMERMAN: Thanks for having us.

PC: Jonathan Zimmerman let me begin with you. We just heard a very excited Eagles' fan. What makes the Eagles so appealing and their fans so rabid?

JONATHAN ZIMMERMAN: Well look this is a football town and I have to tell you I am ashamed it was partisan. Football is something that brings us together in a moment like this, but I think specifically what brings you together in Philadelphia is a sense of being an underdog. Philadelphia is a city with a chip on his shoulder. If you go to the art museum you see a statue of Rocky Balboa, and Rocky Balboa of course is the kind of the classic underdog of pop culture. Philadelphians like to see themselves as disadvantaged as people that come to the plate with a little bit less. So they have to try a little bit harder. And I think that's a huge part of their appeal even outside of Philadelphia.

PC: How do the politics in your town in Philly affect the mindset of Eagles' fans?

JONATHAN ZIMMERMAN: Well you know it's interesting. I mean of course as your previous speaker was saying one of the ways that were being vilification of the Patriots is by associating them with Donald Trump. I think that's rather unfair in certain ways. Again I say that as an Eagles' partisan. It's true that some people atop that organization have indeed expressed affinity for Trump but it's rather a case of guilt by association to say that you know quote 'The Patriots are in Trump's [unintelligible] tank. Many of them refuse to go to private celebrations at the White House and I'm sure if you talked to the players in the Patriots, especially the African-American players, they too would raise their eyebrows at this link.

PC: Okay Diane Hessan, you are not only a Patriot fan, you are studying the connections in your market research. How do you feel about the trade associations with Donald Trump? Are they true or are we just making much about this?

DIANE HESSAN: Well you know I'd say among my voters you know who are in New England maybe three of them have abandoned the Patriots because of the political affiliation. But I think the interesting thing and by the way Jonathan, I was born and raised in Philadelphia, so it is going to be a rough day for me on Sunday - But you know a interesting parallel is how much Patriots' fans are like the Trump team in so many ways. So if you think about it you know that the Trump base - which is really unbelievable to people who don't like Trump - but the Trump base believe that he is doing a job that hes a victim and that no one really wants to acknowledge it. You know they are solidly on the Trump team no matter what happens with him and that kind of passion is like Patriot fans. I mean here in New England we love our team. This Sunday is an opportunity to see weakness play out. The Patriots always find a way to win. They have a brilliant coach they have a superhuman quarterback and a set of values that puts the team first [cross talk] badmouthed the Patriots the more that the fans love their winning team. Outside of New England people can't believe it. It's interesting because Trump nation, like Patriot, sees their critics as jealous losers who like to whine and find blame and explain away the missteps. So the more loyal they are the louder they cheer.

PC: Jonathan Zimmerman you had something to say. Hop in here.

JONATHAN ZIMMERMAN: You know I take the point I like Diane's column but I also think there is a fundamental difference which is that the Patriots can actually point and the Patriots fans can point objectively to real achievements. Indeed some of the greatest achievements in the history of the NFL. Look at their different winning streaks. I take Diane's point but I also think there is a fundamental difference because the Trump voters especially just a year in, they can't objectively point to the record of success as the Patriots' fans. I just think that's a fundamental difference.

DIANE HESSAN: Are you saying you know what the Trump voters say is 'That's actually not the case, the economy is good, unemployment is low, stock market [unintelligible] values are up, new home sales are up. [Cross talk] voters and what they are saying which I think is similar.

PC: Jonathan Zimmerman let me put this to you. You were talking earlier about Philadelphia, the Eagles fans, they love being an underdog and something really romantic about rooting for an underdog, whether they win or lose. Generally people like when their teams win, the people win. Kellyanne Conway says she likes underdogs like Donald Trump. So how is he an underdog? You know arguably sometimes a lot of people don't cheer for the underdog.

JONATHAN ZIMMERMAN: Well those are two questions. With respect to Trump being the underdog, look I'm sure a lot of your listeners scoff when they hear about because this is a guy who was born into enormous wealth and used a good chunk of that wealth to become president. So it [unintelligible] the ears and yes it's also fair to say that electorally, politically Trump absolutely was an underdog. Trump said a lot of things that aren't true. But one of the things he said that is true, that is not arguable, is that almost nobody saw this coming. He absolutely was an underdog. He's played for everything it’s worth and he's not only one. Barack Obama said he was an underdog. Bernie Sanders said he was an underdog. The reason they do that is is a long line of research that comes out of social psychology which says that Americans will always root for the underdog. The reason is the ideal of equality is deeply inscribed in us, whether we abide by it or not, the ideal is. Therefore if we sense that a team or even a politician, a candidate, is somehow disadvantage we will root for them.

PC: When don't we like the underdog?

JONATHAN ZIMMERMAN: Well we don't like the underdog when it can be sure that the underdog will act against our interests. So there is a great experiment a sort of psychological experiment where they take some subjects and they say 'Okay, listen. We are going to award a contract for a company that's going to test water for various substances. Here is our little stored up and here is a big established fortune 500 company, who would you want to give the contract to?' Well that's the prompt, the vast majority of people want to give it to the little stored up. But then if you take the product and you say there's been sickness in your community and we need somebody to investigate the source of the sickness and help treat the water so nobody gets sick again. And then you ask people to choose between the stored up and the established company, then they all switch over to the established company. So I will see this as a Democrat and somebody that opposes Trump. The people who are fighting Trump stop arguing about whether he's an underdog. Then it's a game he can win every time because politically he was an underdog. He's actually right about that. Stop talking about that and start looking at the outcomes of what he's done. If you can persuade Americans that they are going to lose materially because of what Trump does they will not care if he's an underdog. They'll turn against him.

PC: Okay Diane Hassen you know in the last, year more than last year, everyone has been talking about your country is so divided, that there is no real middle ground. You're either this or you're that. We're talking about a rivalry and the metaphor or perhaps in some reality that a sports - team sports teams are the reflection of the divided country but what is your research telling you about just how divided Americans are?

DIANE HESSAN: Well you know my research says is the extremes are getting the airtime. If you look it at who and what issues get in the media and if you watch Congress you would think that no one agrees on anything. And my research shows that actually, probably two thirds of Americans have enough in common and are really willing to kind of compromise on some issues in order for us to move forward and be more united as a country. But there's lots of incentive for the extremes to get the air time. It's click paid. You know Congress trying to appeal to the extremes etc.

DIANE HESSAN: We're going to have to leave it there, Diane. I'm sorry we're out of time. Thank you both.

JONATHAN ZIMMERMAN: Thank you. It was fun.

DIANE HESSAN: Thanks.

PC: Diane Hessan is an entrepreneur and the founder and chair of Sea Space. It is a market research company. She's in Boston. And Jonathan Zimmerman is a professor of education and history at the University of Pennsylvania. He is in Philadelphia today. All right well the CBC News is next, and then legal marijuana on its way, Plenty of Kennedy in there saying they would rather eat their cannabis than smoke it. We'll talk about how dangerous and what the risks are with that. That is coming up. I am Piya Chattopadhyay. You are listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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Cooking with cannabis: How can we educate about edibles to avoid a kitchen nightmare? Deck

Guests: Reena Rampersad, Sylvain Charlebois, Daniel Vigil

PC: Hi I'm Piya Chattopadhyay and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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PC: Still to come:

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Current Air Flight 837 Vancouver is now boarding. We would like to invite our first and business class passengers to board, as well as many passengers travelling with emotional support animals today.

[Sound: Barking, mewing, clucking, bleating]

PC: Well yes the friendly skies have been filling up with our furry and feathered friends lately. They're known as 'emotional support animals' and they are increasingly popular as travelling companions. But after an American woman was told she couldn't board a flight with her support peacock the practice has come under new scrutiny. We'll delve into that in half an hour. But first eating your greens.

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To trial the police officers have been suspended, with pay, after allegedly eating cannabis edibles while on the job. They were allegedly hallucinating and called for help while on duty on Sunday. They are now under investigation by the force of Professional Standards Unit. As you can imagine there are a lot of questions that this story raises.

PC: Well it is a story that raises a lot of questions. That was CBC Toronto's Matt Galloway this week with this story that's embarrassing for the Toronto Police but which also raises questions for the whole country as marijuana legalisation draws near. Because there seems to be a real hunger out there for edible cannabis or edibles as they're known even as they can sometimes pack a surprisingly powerful punch. So we stopped by a Vancouver shop where you can purchase edibles today. It is ahead of legalization of course. And we have agreed not to name the shop or its customers.

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VOICE 1: So here we have our display. All our edibles, we have chocolate bars. We have s'mores. We have cereal bars, white chocolate, milk chocolate, lollipops. We offer hard candy, soft candy. We also have a tea. It's a fantastic little selection of edibles. I think that is actually the last one.

VOICE 2: Okay that is fine.

VOICE 1: So it actually.

VOICE 3: Gummies.

VOICE 2: Yes. I will try gummies.

VOICE 1: So these are the ones that are made by one of our employees. So you all rather enjoy them. These are made with [unintelligible] which could be a different high a little bit stronger.

VOICE 2: Okay.

VOICE 3: Is that a one person dose or a two person dose.

VOICE 1: So this is in 10 mg gummies. So there's 10 in there for the 100 mg so you could pretty much dose at however you feel comfortable.

VOICE 3: What would you recommend, though?

VOICE 1: For me because I smoke so much I have a high tolerance I normally take between four to six.

VOICE 2: Hours literally was going to eat the whole thing cause I've smoked so much that I just figured.

VOICE 3: So we will have two of those pleas

[Laughter]

VOICE 1: So you may have that high a little bit more. Because these gummies are made with Tincture instead [unintelligible] so they soak instead of actually being infused with it.

VOICE 3: And the residuals that's in the corners, is that just sugar.

VOICE 1: Yes all that is sugar.

VOICE 2: We eat the whole think. Lick the rapping.

VOICE 1: The young lady that makes her edibles for the gummies and chocolates, she makes it at home. So it's a lot easier for her to keep everything clean and sanitary. She is a little OCD as she puts it. So she knows everything is pristine condition and she has to have everything gluten free. So she's all about health. So when she mixed the chocolates, the gummies she always used all natural flavoring. The chocolates are made with fresh strawberries. The hazelnuts are always fresh. So you just got to learn your micro dosing is how we put it, because not everyone knows exactly how edibles affect them.

[Laughter and chatter]

VOICE 2: I randomly actually birthstone into that. I will be on the bus and I will be like I can't get enough of that sugar.

[indistinct chatter]

PC: We were like Hey those were some satisfied customers at a Vancouver shop selling edible cannibals. Joining us now from Hamilton, Ontario is Reena Ramperasad. She's the owner of The High Society Supper Club. It is a private Supper Club and catering company that provides cannabis edibles. Reena hello.

REENA RAMPERSAD: Hi. Thanks for having me.

PC: What kind of edible cannabis products do you make?

REENA RAMPERSAD: Well it's basically depended on our consumer. So we basically get hired for private events, various types of- you know cannabis related- what shall I say? Special type- I guess yes, events is where I could really describe it, dinner parties you know private shindigs if you will. So it's based on the person. I tried to focus more on savory because we certainly have a lot of saturation in the market already with sweets. And when you're looking at medicinal users and people who are using it for more than just recreational purposes you want to be able to focus on the healthy aspects as well. It provides with other benefits to compliment.

PC: So what? You put in sauces and things?

REENA RAMPERSAD: Sauces, dressings, hot sauces is actually our specialty.

PC: By doing this what have you learned about the way Canadians like to consume edibles?

REENA RAMPERSAD: Oh well definitely there is a great interest out there you know especially with legalization and the rise and you know just around the corner from us people have certainly expressed a lot of interest. You know whereas a lot of people have indicated that they may not necessarily indulge in smoking once it is something that is accessible to everybody, I certainly have encountered many more people who are open to and interested in trying edibles who maybe have not previously partaken in anything cannabis related prior and so one of the concerns about edibles is the potency. So how do you regulate the level of THC that's the thing in weed that gets you high, in your product?

REENA RAMPERSAD: So there are general standards in terms of dosing that certainly people can follow as safe Gage points if you will that are good standards to start you know the general population on end. We certainly have recommendations. You know this is something that you learn from experience of course. You know you can't be making edibles for a few weeks and make assumptions based on your own metabolism or your own personal experience. It is that something that you have to do a little bit of experiment and research.

PC: But presumably some of your guests at these dinner parties haven't done edibles before. So do you say to them 'Hey careful with the socks there. Don't take too much. Take it slow' what do you say?

REENA RAMPERSAD: Absolutely yes. Part of your job is educating your patrons. So you know right now it really is just more of a hobby club and our emphasis is on educating and enlightening people to the benefits. You know addressing any of concerns about cannabis use. So what I tend to do is I do infuse the sauces whenever possible, which is the majority of the time. We spend at least a good amount of time at the beginning of the evening you know briefing everybody about the potential effects and the pacing of the evening and just the process in which we do it. So we use something I can address as a process called micro dosing which basically is administering it with very small dosages and gradually gradual increments, so that the person has the ability to interpret and gauge how they're feeling.

PC: And I'm just trying to imagine this. If you make me pasta with sauce that has cannabis in it, am I like taking a bite, then you say like wait half an hour see how you feel and have another bite, because that's generally not how we eat a meal.

REENA RAMPERSAD: So what I try to do is I will infuse the source very lightly if even at all. And I will provide kind of like a little accompaniment or an accoutrements kind of thing like maybe an infused flavoured butter to pour on top. And that's where the major part of the infusion will be so that people can control exactly how much they are or not consuming. And you know just addressing your point, I actually do have a lot of newbies if you will who come out to our dinner who have never consumed edibles ever. And I am very careful with those folks I let them know what my suggestions are. I'm very careful about how much I dose each course. So as to ensure that people all are guaranteed a pleasant experience, that people don't go too far to quit.

PC: And what happens if someone gets too high and doesn't like the experience they are having? What do you do?

REENA RAMPERSAD: Well I can guarantee you they don't end up in trees but basically speaking it is really nothing to be afraid of. You know if anything someone could get a little bit sleepy, they might feel a little bit intense but it really hasn't happened yet at my dinner. And there are other things that you can do to combat it as well. You know unlike alcohol intoxication where you start to lose control of some of your faculties. This really is just a little bit of an intense - I don't want to say numbing - but a relaxation a intense relaxation. And yes you know some people may feel a little bit withdrawn but you know this is an effect that wears off and there are many things that can combat it as well you know. For instance we keep CBD on hand. So if somebody feels like maybe one item was a little bit too much you know knock on wood that has not happened yet because were very careful about how we pace our dosing. We have protocols in place, so someone could have a little puff of CBD or have some lemon water and it will bring their level down a bit.

PC: Okay, Reena. And we will have to leave it there. Thank you.

REENA RAMPERSAD: You're welcome.

PC: Reena Ramprasad is the owner of The High Society Supper Club. It is a private supper club and catering company that provides cannabis edibles. She was in our Hamilton, Ontario studio.

SOUNDCLIP

When you smoke cannabis the THC that gets absorbs by the lungs bypasses the liver that THC Hits the brain very quickly. The person experiences that effect much faster than they would if they had eaten it. Which is why often people may say 'Well I took a piece of an edible and nothing happened. And so I had more and I had more, and suddenly it all kicked in at once, whereas with when someone inhales the drug, it hits quite quickly.

PC: That's Dr. Peter Selby a clinician scientist at Toronto's Centre for Addiction and Mental Health here in Toronto explaining why Marijuana's effects can be felt differently when eaten instead of when it smoked. As Canada moves towards legalizing marijuana, how to manage edibles is going to be a hot topic. It is something Colorado has dealt with as one of the first North American jurisdictions to legalize pot. Dr. Daniel Vigil is manager of marijuana health monitoring and research at the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment. He's in Denver Colorado. Hello.

DANIEL VIGIL: Good morning.

PC: So we look to Colorado often as I just said as one of the first jurisdictions to legalize pot and what it's done and may be will beg borrow and steal some of the ideas here in Canada. But so what kinds of regulations are in place around edibles in Colorado?

DANIEL VIGIL: So currently we have certainly more regulation than we've started with. We've learned over time, being one of the first states to do this now, so all manufacturers need a special license separate from cultivation or sales license that has been the case since the beginning. Something new is the 10 mg serving size which sounds like maybe Canada has also implemented. Each serving has to be marked with our universal symbol and there is a maximum of 100 milligrams per package. The variables can be shaped like animals, human, fruits or cartoons and that's to reduce potential appeal to children.

PC: Meaning if you shape a gummy like a bear their kids are going to think it's a gummy bear.

DANIEL VIGIL: Exactly. And speaking of gummy bears, they cannot add THC to a pre manufactured products like gummy bears. This was occurring at the beginning. They would take packages of Haribu gummy bears, basically spray some THC concentrate on them and then resell them. So they look exactly like shelf product.

PC: Okay so there's a separate licence need. You need some special packaging. You can't just added to a pre-existing gummy bear there's a serving size regulation and can't be in certain shapes. How well do these regulations address some of the health concerns around edible products?

DANIEL VIGIL: Sorry, i I may, just a couple of other additional regulations. Our requirements for lab testing go a little bit further with edibles and they're subject to the inspections by food safety. In addition as with all marijuana products they have to have prominent labelling and the universal symbol on the package and then they have to go home it childproofed package. So I think they do a better job of addressing the potential dangers both to children and to adults. So are our main concerns with edibles are that children may get into them and could have adverse effects. We've had an increase in calls to the poison centre and emergency department and hospitalization. Second is that adults who may come across have food item and have no idea that THC in it have also had adverse experiences. And finally those who even are intentionally using an edible product the dosing can be difficult for naive users. And as your previous caller described there are some bar tenders or people who are selling these products who are very responsible and very good at explaining you know to start low and go slow. However not all are really aware of that need. Many stem cells will take six or 10 servings at a time because they have that tolerance and they may not know to caution naive users.

PC: There's a class action lawsuit in Colorado related to some cases of people getting THC poisoning. As far as you see is that a failure of regulation or not enough regulation

DANIEL VIGIL: You know I would say it's probably mostly a failure of education. I think it's very important to educate the public about how different edibles effects are from smoked. Your recorded message about the delay in the effect of edibles is very apt. And also work to educate those were following administering edibles to make sure that they understand, the naive users, what they need to guide them.

PC: I imagine. I think we were kind of newbies earlier but probably like booze no one likes to admit they're naive. You know not no one but most people are going to say I don't know anything about it and take it slow when I ask you that because you know there's a cultural education that needs to go on as well. So what other lessons could can ever learn from Colorado's experience.

DANIEL VIGIL: I guess what I would say is that I think there are three very important things to make sure are well in place before the edibles are allowed next year. And that is education that I mentioned and not just for adults, naive users but also education about how to recognize if a food product you've come across may have THC, with cases where you know somebody left something in a hotel room and then the cleaning staff thought it was a regular candy bar and ate it, and then also the education around safe storage and keeping it out hands potentially of children. Second is lab testing and food safety coordinating those efforts and not just for routine monitoring but in the case of a potential contaminated product. But there also needs to be perhaps a coordination with Department of Agriculture. In Colorado it is the department of agriculture the Marijuana Enforcement Division etc. to be able to quickly investigate and if needed take a product off the shelf.

PC: And thirdly?

DANIEL VIGIL: Well the third is more a benefit of the separate legalization and that's simply to be able to monitor the potential impact of legalizing smoking separately from legalizing edibles. One of the big things to do is monitor our data and so of course that's at the top of my mind.

PC: Dr. Daniel Vigil thank you for your time, appreciate it.

DANIEL VIGIL: Thank you.

PC: Dr. Daniel Vigil is manager of Marijuana Health Monitoring and Research at the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment. He's in Denver, Colorado. Well my next guest is keeping a close watch on cannabis regulation in this country and has his own recommendations on edible regulations here in Canada. Sylvain Charlebois is dean of the Faculty of Management and professor in distribution and policy at Dalhousie University. He's in our Halifax studio. Hello.

SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS: Piya.

PC: So what lessons do you think Canada can and should learn from Colorado's experience of regulating edibles?

SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS: Well so edibles are legal in several states in the United States right now. We can certainly learn from what has happened over the last couple years. Bill C-45 in Ottawa, in our own country, generally speaking didn't include edibles until very recently. Bill C-45 was reviewed by the parliamentary Health Committee. And back in October when we actually published our study on edibles, the vice chair of the committee actually cited our study which was published and then a week later the Liberals presented an amendment to C-45 to include edibles, so very recently we've decided to include edibles into our own law Canada.

PC: And edibles won't become legal at the same time as the rest of the weed does. It is potentially in the summer. It will only become legal by 2019. It is in delay. Is that a good strategy?

SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS: I think it's actually a very good decision by the committee to do so. Because I mean let's face it all Canadians do have access to edibles right now. And all these products are unregulated. You can basically order these products online and nothing is being monitored.

PC: Or you can walk into a store in Vancouver as we heard at the beginning of our part.

SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS: Absolutely. So they are risk and Health Canada since October- They're starting to put their heads together around this and try and understand.so they're actually they're travelling cross-country consulting with different folks including our team here in Dal to figure out how we're going to regulate this in Canada.

PC: So you did it. You conducted a study of Canadians perceptions of edibles and maybe surprisingly maybe not to some, there is a big appetite in our country for this specific product. But what did you learn about how much Canadians understand the risks associated with edibles?

SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS: There's lots of confusion. I mean generally speaking I would consider Canada as an immature market around cannabis. I mean Dr. Vigil did make a point at around education and I think he's right. I think we need to give a chance to Canadians to get educated. Bear in mind when you talk about edibles we often think about things that are sold to Canadians but perhaps some Canadians will decide to cook. And in our survey, in the study we published back in October, results are just 45 percent of Canadians actually would be willing to cook with cannabis at home. And so if you don't have that educational's piece you could actually end up seeing a lot of Canadians making mistakes in their own kitchen.

PC: Or like if you go to the store and buy gummy bears, no one needs one gummy bear like a candy. So if you don't know that if you get gummy bears with cannabis in it, you might throw five in your mouth at a time.

SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS: And by the way the number one food product, cannabis infused food product, being sold right now new US are gummies.

PC: So we invited Health Canada to comment today. They sent a statement I want to read you part of it. Here's what it says .it says: "The government of Canada is committed to protecting the health and safety of Canadians through the legalization and strict regulation in cannabis for non-medical purposes. We have learned from U.S. states that edibles and other cannabis products present unique health risks and require careful study and appropriate regulatory safeguards." What is your response to that, so then Charlebois?

SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS: Well it's reassuring that our regular is looking into it but time is against them. They don't have a whole lot of time. If we are going ahead with the legalization of cannabis, what we have argued at Dal is to do it right. Let's include edibles and make sure that Canadians are well protected. And Dr. Vigil made comments about food safety regulations. I absolutely agree with that. We need to think about not only dosage but we need to think about labelling in how these past will be packaged as well.

PC: Do you think, and I just got about 20 seconds, do you think that this can all be done according to the government’s current timeline when it comes to edibles which is in 2019?

SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS: There’s a lot of work ahead and if we need to do it right as it should be the priority for the government, and not try to do everything in just a few months.

PC: Sylvain Charlebois thank you very much.

SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS: Thank you. Sylvain Charlebois as dean of the Faculty of Management and professor in distribution and policy at Dalhousie University. He is in our Halifax studio. What do you think? What kind of regulations should Canada have on our edibles? You can send us an email by going to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. You can comment on Facebook and Twitter and war @TheCurrentCBC. Okay. Coming up. We are going to be talking about peacocks and other animals who ride with their owners who need emotional support and they come in the form of emotional support animals. That's in just a bit. I'm Piya Chattopadhyay. And you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

SYLVAIN CHARLEBOIS: [Music: Theme]

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How dogs, ducks and horses end up as emotional support animals — and allowed on planes

Guests: Kelly Doctor, Beth Daly, Annie McCullough

PC: I am Piya Chattopadhyay and this is the Friday edition of The Current.

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VOICE 1: Morning [unintelligible] time. This one is a strange one. A service animal ruffled some feathers at North Liberty International Airport.

VOICE 2: We all like to travel with companions, a spouse, friend, a peacock.

VOICE 3: A woman tries to get a peacock on board a United flight.

VOICE 4: Oh my goodness. This woman is wrangling her Peacock into the air.

VOICE 5: But United said the finely feathered bird could not fly in the cabin, telling us in a statement "This animal did not meet guidelines for a number of reasons.

PC: Yes the case of the peacock that wasn't allowed to fly made colourful headlines around the world this week. It happened at a New Jersey airport when a traveller tried to board a flight with her Peacock in tow as her emotional support animal. You may have noticed more dogs and cats inside the cabin on flights lately, not to mention perhaps some ducks, turkeys, marmosets and more. According to United Airlines there has been a 75 percent increase in the number of emotional support animals accompanying passengers on their flights and there has been "a significant increase in on-board incidents as well". This week United Airlines joined Delta in announcing more stringent measures to screen animals as well as their owners. The airline says the new measures are an attempt to prevent fraud and make sure that passengers who do need it support animals are still able to have them. So today we are taking a look at the apparent spike in the use of emotional support animals and the implications for those who depend on them. Annie McCullough says that's certainly the case for her and her dog Frankie. Annie lives in Vancouver. She is receiving ongoing treatment for PTSD and she's with us from our Vancouver studio, along with Frankie. Hi to you both.

ANNIE MCCULLOUGH: Good morning.

PC: Tell me about Frankie what kind of dog is he?

ANNIE MCCULLOUGH: Frankie he's a French bulldog. He's about 30 pounds and he's been sitting quietly beside me until now. Somehow he's decided he knows were talking about him so he's having little chats with me.

PC: Then how did Frankie become your emotional support animal?

ANNIE MCCULLOUGH: Well so emotional support animals don't have formal training. What happened is I had him. He's been my dog for six years now. But when I was diagnosed with complex PTSD about two years ago my psychologist at the time - because I was doing a lot of travelling - suggested that it might be very helpful for me if I was able to bring Frank with me, not because I'm anxious on flights but rather so that I can have him with me on extended business trips. So that's how he became an emotional support dog. But what happened for me was that letter from my doctor is the key to this whole thing. It's not it's not just that I wanted him. He was almost prescribed if that makes sense.

PC: Okay so help people who don't understand this. You know a lot of people understand that dogs are of any sort to bring comfort to their owner. So how do you explain how Frankie is different from just a regular pet who makes people feel comfortable or calm or happy? What does he do for you psychologically?

ANNIE MCCULLOUGH: Well I think everything that you just said is absolutely true. There's no doubt that all animals have a therapeutic value. But for instance while entering the studio this morning there was somebody downstairs who clearly was afraid of dogs and so I don't assume that everyone gets therapy just from having any animal around. But for me there is a relationship and a bond between him and I that I think is part of what helps me feel grounded and calm when he is with me. Now that's not to say that I can't live without him you know. If he were to pass or if something were to happen and I don't have him with me I am not going to not be able to function. But there is that I believe that the support function that he provides is a grounding and a recognition of just the relationship that we have. I don't believe that he's - I think he's a very loving animal. His Instagram account is called Everybody Loves Frank because everyone does. And I've noticed that when I'm travelling through airports or different places most people will be just happy to see that there is a dog around.

PC: But I was going to ask you I think most people or a lot of people understand what dogs can do in terms of comfort. But there are all sorts of examples of more sort of unusual emotional support animal spiders, ducks, sugar gliders, the peacock of this past week. What do you make of the idea that non-traditionally non domesticated animals are being used as emotional support animals

ANNIE MCCULLOUGH: It's very difficult for me to say. I think that someone like an animal behavioural specialist would probably be more apt to explain how that would be possible because I've never had a non-traditional. I've had cats and dogs. I've had a horse. So I do understand that connection with animals very well since I was a young child. But I don't - I can't speak to bringing a bird or you know I heard a story of someone trying to bring a snake, these things I can't speak to. But I have to assume that it would be the same for them that their connection and their rounded feelings if they are suffering like I do from anxiety type disorder PTSD or anxiety that it would be calming for them. But I feel that it's a bit unfair even like I said when I saw the reaction this morning to a dog and that happens sometimes, people are afraid of dogs. I can't imagine how I would feel if I saw somebody bringing a strange large exotic animal and playing with me. There's it's sort of not fair but I can't - you know I can't really speak for other people what they get. Did you just hear shake? Sorry [laughs].

PC: It's. You know what I said in the introduction United and other American airlines are trying to be more stringent about this because of some of the issues that they raise. And one of them is about people using the animals fraudulently. In other words they need them for emotional support. Do you think some people are stretching the definition of what an emotional support animal is?

ANNIE MCCULLOUGH: Absolutely. That's the sad part is that there are people out there who have discovered that the system is still new and flawed probably that it doesn't take that much effort to get certain pieces of identification that would make the animal appear to be an emotional support dog. So the system is definitely being abused. I think right now I have had multiple people ask me about it when they see me you know either just travelling or whatever. As soon as they see the vest they won't understand. And I always explain to them that this isn't just because I want this. There is a process and it has to do with being treated. There has to be an ongoing treatment of a condition that allows you to get an emotional support animal. It's not just get a vest and you're good to go. You have to be receiving treatment for it. And I think that's the part where the public needs to get educated and then the airlines etcetera need to have their policies you know very clearly. Like Air Canada I fly with all the time. They have my records. They have my letter from my doctor. I have to update it every year and it has to say that I am continuing to receive treatment. So I think here in Canada maybe the airlines are a bit more savvy and maybe Delta and the other ones are getting more savvy but that's the part. I don't want everybody like myself who actually has a true emotional support animal to suffer. But I also wouldn't want to say that Peacock isn't really her emotional support anymore. I mean I don't know.

PC: You know there's some U.S. airlines are getting stricter about these animal seeing the animals. They need to show the airline people up to date vaccinations, owners need to sign a form promising they'll behave on board on the fly. What do you make of conditions like that?

ANNIE MCCULLOUGH: Well I think vaccinations are fair when I travel to the U.S. I always have to have Frankie's vaccination papers with me. But I think these are wild animals. You know whether they're domesticated or not they're still animals you cannot really guarantee those types of things. The thing is I wouldn't bring Frankie on an airplane if I didn't know that he was going to be well-behaved. I trust that he is going to do what he always does. He sits, he goes to sleep, he does it - at home when he does, everywhere he I take him he just lies down and then he's well behaved but there's no guarantees on that. So the airlines can do that. They can ask for those things and have people sign papers and they can bring vaccinations but there are still you know there still could be an incident. And because of allergies and because of other people's fear of animals I think it's a very touchy subject. So I don't want to say that I don't want it to continue because being able to travel with Frank has been a real gift for me. I also think that for the people who are abusing it they need to stop because they're going to end up ruining it for those of us who do truly have support animals. And I think the public and the airlines need to be educated about how to actually have the proper paperwork. The vaccination piece well you know it's helpful but I don't think its really going to solve the thing that people are probably worrying about. Like if a dog were to bite you, vaccinated or not that's going to create an issue, right?

PC: Any Mikala. We will leave it there. Thank you. And thanks to Frank.

ANNIE MCCULLOUGH: Thank you so much for having us.

PC: Annie McCullough uses an emotional support dog. Its name is Frank and she joined us from our Vancouver studio. Well our next guest is a lawyer who says she's seeing more and more of these cases in her practice and has concerns that the law hasn't kept pace with the growing need for emotional support animals. Kelly Doctor is a partner at Goldblatt Partners and she specializes in human rights and labor law and she joins us from a studio in Kelowna, British Columbia. Hi.

KELLY DOCTOR: Good morning.

PC: So when you heard about the peacock this week what did you think?

KELLY DOCTOR: Well my first thought was how well-trained is this peacock because obviously they're not really known to be well-behaved birds. So I was surprised. I mean I think it's probably stretching the line to have an animal of that nature. It's certainly very difficult for airlines who are dealing with things in a really short amount of time to assess animals.

PC: I said in my introduction to you that you have more and more people coming into your practice who have concerns around their emotional support animals. What kind of situations do they come to you about?

KELLY DOCTOR: So it's not just emotional support animals, it is service animals in a much broader sense as well. And I think there is actually an important distinction between the two. There's animals that are specifically trained to perform specific tasks for people and then there are animals that don't have that training, and so emotional support animals can be difficult because if they don't have specific and stringent training it becomes a lot more difficult to know if they are going to be safe in any kind of environment.

PC: Let me just clear up the distinction with you. So there's the service animals that are people who are visually impaired. We often have dogs or perhaps someone I don't know has PTSD and the dog barks when they are having nightmares, and those are service animals, yes?

KELLY DOCTOR: So the lie is an entirely clear and that. There are guide dogs which are dogs that are specifically trained for people who have visual impairments and they are often regulated separately then service animals. Service animals as sort of a separate category and it depends really on which province or federal legislation in terms of how they are defined and regulated. Some provinces define them as dogs. Some provinces will define them as animals that are specifically trained to perform certain tasks and some provinces including in Ontario just have a very broad definition about animals that people rely on to help them with their disability.

PC: Okay so when people come to see you, whether it's about a dog or another kind of animal that they see as an emotional support animal, if this isn't just about flying what other kinds of situations they come you about? Give me a couple examples.

KELLY DOCTOR: Well you have people who are looking to bringing an animal with them into the workplace as a way of accommodating their disability. So that's the primary thing that I see in my practice is people who were looking for animals in the workplace. There are also people who may want to bring an animal into a housing unit where there are rules against dogs.

PC: Then what are our laws say about that?

KELLY DOCTOR: Well in terms of bringing animals in to the workplace that's governed by the human rights code and so it's no different than accommodating any other kind of disability. You have to go through an analysis to determine whether or not the person has a disability, whether or not this particular means of assisting with the disability is a requirement. And then you have to figure out whether or not a reasonable accommodation is possible.

PC: Okay. And if a condo building has a no pets policy, if I had an emotional support animal can I as a Canadian challenge that?

KELLY DOCTOR: Yes it would definitely be open to challenge. The human rights code does cover accommodation and the law around emotional support animals is quite unclear at this point in time. The tribunal has dealt somewhat with the idea of whether or not animals have to be specifically trained. And the human rights tribunal has found that there is no requirement for an animal to be trained or certified by a recognised disability related organisation but the tribunal hasn't actually waded into this difficult area of emotional support animals. And where it's tricky is that if the animal doesn't have basic behavioural training it can be really hard because then you end up with conflicts potentially with other tenants around whether or not that animal is going to be a danger to them, whether the going is going to bite, whether the animal is going to defecate or relieve themselves in the hallway. So it raises a whole host of issues in terms of competing with other people’s rights.

PC: As we imagine jurisdiction to jurisdiction is different but in Canada what proof do people need to provide to bring emotional support animals into spaces that don't normally allow animals. You know we heard our last guest talk about planes, but like restaurants and workplaces. Is there a standard in which someone has to come in and say I've got this to prove this?

KELLY DOCTOR: So in Ontario under the accessibility frontiers with disabilities act the standard is simply that the animal has to appear to be acting as a service animal or the person has to have a note from a qualified medical practitioner. What's interesting about that though is that the act only applies to certain situations. So services normally available to public, things like restaurants, public spaces, things like that. And when you're looking at those types of interactions you're sort of looking at really quick interactions where you know the person is sitting down for a restaurant. It doesn't make a lot of sense to sort of explore in depth difficult accommodation issues. Workplaces and other situation would be different. So then you're looking at the more general rules under the Human Rights Code which doesn't give any guidance on what would need to be provided. So we turn back to the case lawyer. The starting point of course is providing a medical note to establish the existence of a disability and the fact that the animal is a requirement.

PC: But I could imagine a workplace situation where one worker says 'I need this. It is my emotional support animal. I have my doctor's saying' and another worker saying 'the workplace must provide a safe environment for which I can come to work. I am fearful of animals and could document that'. So it's kind of a pitting of rights in some ways, isn't it?

KELLY DOCTOR: It can be. It certainly can be. That's one of the challenges with service animals not just people who share fears of dogs or some people who have…

PC: Or allergies?

KELLY DOCTOR: Allergies and religious objections. And so what you have to do is engage in an analysis where you figure out how to deal with these competing rights. And the first step of that is to actually stop and think 'Is there actually competing rates here'. I mean to take the example religious requirements, there may well be a fear of a conflict but when you really dig into it, the requirement from the person who has the religious belief is that they can't touch the animal and the service my user says 'Great. I don't want you touching my animal. My animal's working'. So sometimes the appearance of a conflict isn't necessarily a conflict. And when there is a conflict then you have to dig into it and figure out what you can do to try to accommodate both rights.

PC: Kelly Doctor thanks for your perspective.

KELLY DOCTOR: Thank you so much.

PC: Kelly Doctor is a partner at Goldblatt Partners and she's in Kelowna, British Columbia. Okay let's get a bigger picture view on emotional support animals from someone who studies interactions between humans and animals. Beth Daly is an expert in the field of anthrozoology. She's an associate professor at the University of Windsor. She is on the line from Windsor, Ontario. Hi.

BETH DALY: Good morning.

PC: You know we were all talking about the peacock this week, so let's talk about that. When you heard about the peacock, your reaction was what?

BETH DALY: Well I received about seven emails in the first 10 minutes that the story went I guess online. It's only a matter of time before this was a peacock. This isn't surprising anymore. We are seeing this almost on a weekly basis. Internet posts go viral about some kind of different species that boarded an airplane. And I have to say I went back. It's just interesting because Annie had mentioned something about Canadian airlines probably being a little bit more savvy, but West Jet actually list on their website that they consider miniature horses, pigs and monkeys welcome emotional support animals.

PC: Wow.

BETH DALY: Yes that was quite a surprise to me that they haven't updated that. So it is you know that is encouraged at some level from some different airlines.

PC: But I guess this is sort of the crux of the matter here. What kind of animal can provide emotional support by the definition of an emotional support animal? You know most people don't know anything about peacocks besides seeing them from time to time in various locations either as zoo or in a foreign country. Can a peacock be an emotional support animal??

BETH DALY: Well I think by very definition of emotional support animal, any animal can be an emotional support animal and that is exactly why we're talking about this issue so much these days. Because there are so many different people who have so many different preferences and so many different ways their relationships with animals. And while most of us think of course traditionally of dogs and cats which is certainly part of our culture. We know more and more that people are bringing different animals into their homes. They have different types of exotic species that they have different kinds of bonds with, and those elements do provide different kinds of emotional support for them.

PC: So you know I think mammals, okay, many people can wrap their heads around. Horses yes of course. Dogs okay. But there are things like spiders. And I guess people would say can everything be an emotional support animal or the definition is just so wide that it's sort of rendered meaningless.

BETH DALY: The part is the question because we get, as human beings; we get emotional support from a lot of things. We get emotional support from certain types of food. We get emotional support from certain types of television and radio programming. So it would make sense that one might justify their emotional improvement from their interaction with a spider. It's not something that I perhaps can benefit from, or you, but different people will make different justifications based on what they're getting some alleviated symptoms from.

PC: Sorry if anyone has a spider as emotional support animal. I am going to put your your emotional support animal against a dog which I think most people are more familiar with sort of having as a pet. Can, say a spider, or other animals, actually be trained for emotional support?

BETH DALY: Well there is no formal training and I just, in defence of the dog, share your defence of that.

PC: It is not a defence it is just that we are more familiar with a dog.

BETH DALY: The dog has 15,000 year running start. Humans and dogs have been together for an awful long time. I don't know how spiders are training. I imagine that there are some that are trained but you know I've seen some badly trained, in fairness, as well. So I really can't even know what kind of emotional support a person would get from a spider but I guess the response to that is, under the law and under the definition of a person is getting emotional support from that particular animal and that animal is legally allowed to be in a combat phase then I don't know what the objection is.

PC: You're an anthrozoologist, so help us understand the science, the science behind how animals help people emotionally.

BETH DALY: Well the science behind that is very different than the science behind whether or not emotional support animals are effective. Those are two very different things. We know that- and I am going to use dogs and cats to speak about, because that's what we know about. But we know dogs and cats are treated in our society as family members and we get a lot of emotional support from family members. We get emotional support from friendship. We know that dogs are a social facilitator. We go to the park - I met my husband walking my dog at the park. So we know this about dogs and cats in our society but when it comes to the actual research on emotional support the research is actually very very limited. There is not a lot of strong a studies show that there is a lot of benefit from having an emotional support animal, and having services work animals work in that area of PTSD that has become such a new area of study that you'll see a line of research in that area in the next few years. There has been a lot going on. But much of that research is anecdotal. Most people will just tell you I love having a pet because I get a lot of benefit from it.

PC: You know w when we talk about the relationship, we generally talk about the needs of the humans in the relationship. Do you have concerns about the animals in the relationships with animals who are used as emotional support animals?

BETH DALY: I agree with that completely. To me the biggest problem from my perspective, is that of animal welfare. We aren't considering the role of the animal. I always use this example of the monkey, because monkey shouldn't live with people. Monkeys are not conducive to a human environment. And yet I had a spinal cord injury a few years ago and there is actually a website that supplies monkeys for people who have spinal cord injuries. And no one's thinking in this regard, what about what is best for the animal. And you even see this with dogs as they get older. Dogs become more anxious as they age. So there are dogs that shouldn't be in public spaces and I have seen this quite a bit where people will legitimately or not legitimately bring their dog into a public space under the guise of the dog or if the dog really is an emotional support animal. And the dog shouldn't be there. The dog is nervous, the dog is anxious and we see this alive. And many people who require emotional support for people who have different kinds of disabilities maybe are unable to care for the dogs [unintelligible] everything they can.

PC: Maybe it's emotionally stressful for a peacock to be put on a plane.

BETH DALY: I would guess that it is. I would guess that it is. It is a pretty confined space and I don't think it's really a natural environment for a peacock.

PC: I've got to let you go in just a few seconds. But how do we square this? We're seeing more and more of these cases, more and more you know sort of unusual cases where people say 'this is my emotional support animal'. What do we do?

BETH DALY: I don't know what we're going to do because I mean also there are strict criteria for ESA letters. But there is always going to be abusers. I mean I've seen this with accessible parking spots. If a person qualifies they are given an accessible parking pass and they're able to do that. And I think we're now seeing the same thing with ESA letters, emotional support animal letters. There are dozens of Web sites online. Because I've gone to them to look at them I guess them almost every day now and for one 149 dollars if you tick all the boxes - and it is not hard to tick all these boxes - you will qualify for an emotional support animal.

PC: You mean like a fake certificate.

BETH DALY: Well yes yes. These are fake certificate but the questions are very vague and there are people that work at these organizations who claim they are mental health professionals and with that letter you are legally permitted to board an airplane with your monkey.

PC: Beth Daly we will leave it there. Thank you.

BETH DALY: Thank you very much.

PC: Beth Deely is an associate professor of anthropology at the universe the University of Windsor and we reached her in Windsor, Ontario. That is it for this Friday edition of The Current. I know you want to tell us what you think of what you were just listening to. So do so. You can go to Facebook you can find there. You can find us on Twitter TheCurrentCBC is our handle, or you can email us by going to our Web site cbc.ca/thecurrent is the place to go for that. Stay tuned to Radio 1 for Q Mike Clattenburg, a co-creator of the Trailer Park Boys drops by to talk about his new show. It's called Crawford and it's about a dysfunctional middle class family home. By the way we started today's show by talking about this Sunday's Superbowl. Well a Chinese Canadian artist, kris Wu will be making history by being the first Chinese artist to perform at the event. Wu who lives part of part time in Richmond, British Columbia will be performing as part of Super Bowl live concert series that is taking place tomorrow. He is also an ambassador for NFL China. Here's some of his music to end things today. This song is called Juice. I am Piya Chattopadhyay. I thank you for lending your ear here on the Friday edition of The Current.

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[Song: Juice by Kris Wu]

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