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The Current Transcript for January 17, 2018

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

When things started to come out with regards to Harvey, etc.. We were 'wow we have been walking around in a bit of a bubble.' You know I just can't allow the status quo to exist in the same way.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Actors Sterling K. Brown at the Golden Globes where men in the entertainment industry made sure to make supportive comments about the #MeToo and Time'sUp movements. But as with the public conversations by women that have tumbled across social media and sparked private discussions, men across North America are weighing in and waking up to a new level of discourse on consent and coercion assaults and harassment. Today we've asked a few men to tell us how their own thinking is evolving around the messages and the movement and the backlash. Heat them in an hour. Also today James's Pigeau had been on remand in a provincial jail for the better part of a year waiting to go to trial when he began routinely phoning a CBC journalist from the institution where he was being held.

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This is the worst jail in Ontario. They don't give two *****. None of your rights are upheld here. How can they say 'you can't see your lawyer for weeks on end'

AMT: A few weeks ago James Pigeau was found dead in his cell. The calls he made out of London, Ontario's Elgin Middlesex Detention Centre to the Fifth Estate's Joseph Loiero, offer a disturbing glimpse of the treatment of inmates inside an Ontario jail and the unexplained deaths the Ontario government doesn't want to talk about. We've got that story in half an hour. And it was a story that reverberated around the world: An 11 year old girl wearing the hijab attacked on the way to school. We now know that story was never true. But - say hate crimes researchers - that's where the fiction ends.

SOUNDCLIP

Just because this one particular story is not real, it doesn't mean that the other stories are not real. Let's not forget that we need to still work formed and Islamophobia are trying to combat anti-Muslim hate.

I am Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

Back To Top »

Crying hate crime: how hoaxes give bigots ammunition to undermine real victims

Guests: Aisha Sherazi, Bernie Farber

SOUNDCLIP

I feel confused, scare, terrified and I turned around and saw him with his sisters and he ran away.

AMT: A chilling story though not as it seemed. Last week an 11 year old girl said a man had come up behind her and cut out her hijab with a pair of scissors, twice as she walked to her school in Scarborough, Ontario. Toronto Police put out an alert of the incident on their Twitter page and very soon afterwards a hastily organised press conference roared out at the school, cameras and microphones capturing the young girl's account of which you heard part of there. Even the prime minister weighed in with his sympathies, decrying the attack as one that goes against Canadian values.

SOUNDCLIP

My heart goes out to the young girl who was attacked, seemingly for her religion. I can't imagine how afraid she must have been. I want her and her family and her friends and community to know that that is not what it is and that is not who Canadians are.

AMT: And then the story unraveled. Toronto Police released a statement Monday saying the incident had never actually happened and the reaction online was swift and angry.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Typewriter clicks starts]

Pure Insanity always playing the victim. Everywhere Muslims have a majority they dominate non Muslims.

[Sound: Whistle]

Trudeau made an official statement when this fake hate crime happened. Will he give another state to clarify that it was all a hoax?

[Sound: Whistle]

These people were supposed to be ******* reporters? They didn't notice the pattern that every hate crime is a #HijabHoax. They should be embarrassed at the very least.

[Sound: Whistle]

Let me get this straight. Islamophobia that never actually happened will somehow cause more Islamophobia.

[Sound: Whistle]

This should still be prosecuted as a hate crime. Trying to categorise non Muslims as aggressors is equally as hateful as the fraudulent original crime.

AMT: Just a handful of online comments about the incidents voiced by our producers. What may be lost in all the outrage over this so-called non story is the fact that the number of police reported hate crimes in Canada rose last year for the third year in a row. They've also become more violent according to Statistics Canada. We have to guests standing by to weigh in on the fallout from this story. Bernie Farber is the former CEO of the Canadian Jewish Congress. He was the executive director of the Mosaic Institute which strives to create dialogue among diverse communities. Today he's a writer consultant an advocate on human rights issues and Bernie Farber joins us in our Toronto studio. Aisha Sherazi as a teacher, teen counselor and writer. She's in our Ottawa studio. Hello to you both.

BERNIE FARBER: Hello. Good morning.

AISHA SHERAZI: Good morning.

AMT: Aisha Sherazi, let's begin with you. What was your reaction when you first heard the reports of the attack on the 11 year old girl last week?

AISHA SHERAZI: Obviously I was concerned for her at the time. You know I think it was very traumatic to listen to as a mother of two children that pulled at my heartstrings. I also felt concerned for a lot of young girls and women in general that are visible minorities.

AMT: Why did that story ring true for you

AISHA SHERAZI: As a youth counsellor in the city of Ottawa I often get approached by families and parents that are concerned. I know personally a few friends who have been through a variety of incidents, ranging from very very outwardly hateful things to subtle things. And you do feel targeted when you are a visible minority in general. The flip side is that I also get parents who will consult with me who will say 'my daughter has always worn hijab, has always felt comfortable in her own skin, and yet as she becomes older she wants to remove it'. And they're not concerned so much that she should have it on or shouldn't have it on. It's just a big change and that concerns them and when they speak to their daughters openly about sort of what's driving that change, it's that they feel targeted that they don't feel comfortable anymore. They feel that people are going to look at them. They feel judged. And that's troubling.

AMT: Bernie Farber what did you think when you heard the first report

BERNIE FARBER: Well I actually believed it. I have children my own who are now adults. And I was a social worker for many years before I was with the Canadian Jewish Congress. It had the ring of truth to it especially given everything that we've seen over the last number of years - Attacks on the Muslim community etc. So I feel frightened for a little girl. I feel frightened for the community as well. And I did reach out to a number of different people. So it was I think something that took us all very very much by surprise on both ends of this issue.

AMT: And so when the Toronto Police said it did not happen what did you think then

BERNIE FARBER: Well there was certainly an amount of shock but then I started thinking about this. I mean were dealing with an 11 year old girl who told a lie. That's basically what happened, and then that lie got caught up in this spiral of events that went way out of control. And so how do we deal with that? It's a terrible thing and she should face natural consequences. I guess the problem is that so many unnatural things happened as a result of her lie that the world came down upon her head, and very unfairly in my books. We are dealing with a kid, with a little girl. And some of the comments I read on my Facebook which is very open sight - people will tell you - were some of the most vitriolic vile kinds of comments that I've ever seen. It was disgusting. I spent most of my night blocking people and getting rid of those comments.

AMT: Aisha Sherazi what struck you when it came out that the story was not true

AISHA SHERAZI: See my feelings resonate with Bernie. I think I was very very surprised. But again I sort of took the pragmatic approach. Working with youth, I know that it's difficult. I know for example one young person who attended a set of events at school and where they were invited to share you know very very real problems that they were facing and people had really intense problems. And that particular individual said to me 'I don't have problems like that'. And so there is a sort of an almost a need in society for young people to fit in and therefore feel that they do need to sort of step up and demonstrate that they're suffering in some way.

AMT: Do you think Aisha in hindsight that the authorities might have handled it differently

AISHA SHERAZI: I think the police always have their own role to play. They absolutely must reach out to the public very swiftly in order to you know get as much information as they can from the public and they rely on the public for support. So it's unfortunate that things spiralled as they did but I think it was just the nature of the act itself that we all got caught up in it. We were all a part of that. We were all deeply disturbed. We all wanted to be of some help.

AMT: And Bernie Farber has just talked about the kind of vitriol that he saw on his Facebook page about the 11 year old and the wider Muslim community. What kind of anger did you see that kind of thing at all

AISHA SHERAZI: I did and I saw - two things really stood out. Well three things so one was that there were people who were going to say hateful things regardless, even if it's a good news story. I've seen this time and time again, the people who are just to be negative and naysayers regardless of what happens. So you know 'Islam is a cancer of the world and they should all be eradicated and this is just an example of another lying Muslim'. You know there were people who insinuated that you know 'this was a cry of help from this girl because she must be forced to wear the hijab and so naturally she cut it herself and when she got caught. You know that's what happened'. And then the third party who who just generally you know blame the parents and sort of thought that this was a real conspiracy. But I also feel that you know in Canada we've almost become slightly sort of polarised politically as well. And so people thought well this is just now a fair play I can open the attack politicians that supported them and turn it into a sort of partisan attack if you like. And I thought that was a shame, too.

AMT: Bernie Farber this isn't the first time we've seen a hoax happen, a fake report, someone who's done something - what have you seen over the years

BERNIE FARBER: Sadly it's not all the first time. I mean you would think you're in Canada given the reaction to it that this has never happened before. But quite the contrary. And people will remember as I'm speaking right now and it was only maybe just a year ago, where a young Jewish Israeli teenager was the one that was accused in the spate of bomb threats the road across North America, targeting Jewish community centers and synagogues. It frightened Jewish communities literally around the world. And of course as it turned out, sad to say it, it was a young 17 year old Jewish teenager in Israel who is using technology, changing his voice. Many in our community were embarrassed to say the least. But at the same time I think people understand, at least when it came to the Jewish community at that particular time that these types of terrible situations happen. The difference here is that we didn't have that same kind of understanding. Quite the contrary, as you said the basically dropped down the throat of this little girl. I had posts saying she should be put in jail etc. etc. there was a terrible lack of understanding, a terrible lack of sympathy, a terrible lack of empathy. It was stressed not Canadian the way they reacted.

AMT: Aisha did you see a difference in the Muslim community? What did you see in the reaction to the not true of revelations

AISHA SHERAZI: So I think y most of the community were appalled and rightly so because dishonesty, if that's what this was, I mean I'm not party to any of the information.

AMT: No. We don't have a lot of information. The police have said that it did not happen and they stopped there.

AISHA SHERAZI: And I think that you know that assumption sort of leads to one to believe that there may be potential dishonesty in the very least here. So I think most of the community were appalled at that but I think most people sort of are now calming down and have realised and recognise that this is a child and that things happen. But you know I Bernie's words resonate with me once again because I think you know this does happen and when it does it's unfortunate. But it doesn't mean that we cant use it to have broader discussions about reaching out to youth about the fact that hatred - not just of Muslims - but you know of Black people of Indigenous peoples of Jews and so on, those discussions still need to very much take place.

AMT: Did you worry that this might cause others to question the story next time there is a report of Muslim hate crime

AISHA SHERAZI: Of course there is that concern but I'm going to be an advocate for reporting hate crimes. Here in Ottawa, the Ottawa Police Service have made online reporting available as well, which you know is sort of helpful because when you have been victimised - and it is a very very scary horrible experience to be victimised for something that you have no control over. You cant control the color of your skin. You can’t really control who you were born as per say or your beliefs. And so it's very tricky but I am going to continue to be an advocate for people to report.

AMT: And what should people keep in mind when something like this happens

AISHA SHERAZI: Well from my point of view people have to remember this, that one false report does not mean that there isn't Islamophobia out there that there isn't anti-Semitism out there that there isn't racism out there. These false reports sadly happen in all communities. I'm actually reading about this for Now magazine tomorrow. So those of you who are here in Toronto can read a little bit about that. But the fact of the matter is that we have to stay the course. We have to put this aside, realise that these things will happen. In No way I think Canadians should really be still very strongly supportive of targeted communities because the pain that their community feels when triggered by hatred is unknowing unless you go through it. And really we need you the welcoming arms of comedians not pushing people away, very important.

AMT: Aisha, you want to add to that?

AISHA SHERAZI: Yes I think I think absolutely that's true. You know it's very very tricky. We live in a time where people, the Muslim community is continuously in the news. It can get very wearing and that is wearing on our young people who frankly feel the pressure the most. I mean growing up is confusing at the best of times and then to have this kind of consistent vilification in the media and in social media is really wearing down our youth. And so we want our young children to grow up being contributing members of society and not to feel that they are being vilified. And y it amazes me that even though the Jewish community have been demonised for centuries and centuries, you'll still find people who'll deny anti-Semitism exists today and it does. And so we need to be more vigilant not less.

AMT: Thank you both for fired on us.

BERNIE FARBER: Thank you for having me.

AISHA SHERAZI: Thank you.

AMT: That's Bernie Farber former CEO of the Canadian Jewish Congress. He was the executive director of the Mosaic Institute. He's with me in our Toronto studio. Aisha Sherazi as a teacher a teen counsellor and writer. She joined us from our Ottawa studio.

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AMT: This is The Current on CBC Radio One, on Sirius XM. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti.

SOUNDCLIP

The issue is that we need to better teach enthusiastic consent to boys and girls at a much earlier age. We need to teach them to read verbal and non-verbal cues. My worry with Aziz Ansari story is that this will give, as they say, enemies of the movement an opportunity to dismiss all the aspects of #MeToo which is frightening.

AMT: Well that's Globe and Mail columnist Elizabeth Renzetti speaking as part of a panel on yesterday's program. We were looking at the much publicised story about a bad date with comedian Aziz Ansari and how it's led to a debate inside the #MeToo movement. If you missed that segment you can hear it and find it on our Web site cbc.ca/thecurrent. I have tot a little bit of what you had to say in response. Andrea Williams in Toronto wrote in to say 'I appreciated the thoughtful discussion about differences in conceptions of sexual violence across the generations. I am 50 and I've learned much from younger women including my three daughters. I've got issues like consent slut shaming and the varieties of sexual violence. I feel grateful to other feminists who challenged my preconceptions. Whatever their age and who keep me awake'. Dan Wren in Ottawa, said this: 'I'm a male feminist loving this #MeToo movement but I'm really having a hard time with the guilty until proven innocent aspect. I think that is so dangerous and thus makes me reluctant to embrace this as rigorously as I would like'. Jill Almond in Kelowna, B.C. writes to say 'This woman could have and should have left the building when the actor placed his hand inappropriately on her. Never mind continuing to say no you're going too fast. Sending mixed messages is never cool. I don't get mixed messages as an old lady and a young man doesn't either. This is also a case of he said she said I'm tired of this movement. This flavor of the month will put feminism back decades. Grow up'. Lisa Hanning in Nelson B.C. writes 'It occurred to me that our justice system is not designed for cases which with such subtle considerations. Restorative Justice or Truth and Reconciliation type of inquiry are the systems of justice we should look toward to promote increased awareness understanding healing and justice. We all have so much to learn'. Finally John Morten of Montreal said this: 'An interesting segment but I really feel we need to get the male perspective on all of this. Their voices seem to be ignored and I think that's an important voice moving forward'. Well thanks for your letters and Jill Morton, we will be hearing some male voices on this issue coming up in about half an hour. So stay with us for the men on the #MeToo panel. And in the meantime and always you can send us your thoughts on whatever you hear on The Current. Find us on Facebook. Go to Twitter @TheCurrentCBC, send us an e-mail from our Web site cbc.ca/theurrent and click on the Contact link.

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AMT: The CBC News is next and then why are so many inmates dying of a London Ontario jail? Before he died, James Pigeau told part of the story to a CBC producer. His words in our next half hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. Sirius XM, online on cbc.ca/thecurrent, on podcast and on your radio app.

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Back To Top »

'Inmates are dying left, right, and centre': Third death in six weeks renews criticism of Ontario prison

Guests: Habiba Nosheen, Joseph Loiero

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come: A lot of men are hesitant to openly, publicly about the #MeToo movement and the changes it is bringing, not our panel. In half an hour I'll be joined by three men to share their thoughts on how the #MeToo movement is affecting them and the way they think and how it has different meanings in different communities. But first hard time at the Elgin Middlesex Detention Centre.

SOUNDCLIP

AUTOMATED VOICE: This is Bell Canada. You have a collect call from.

JAMES PIGEAU: James Pigeau.

AUTOMATED VOICE: You may press one now to accept [beep] Thank you.

JAMES PIGEAU: Hi. How are you doing?

JOSEPH LOIERO: Hey, sorry I missed your calls.

JAMES PIGEAU: No worries.

AMT: Far from Paradise, James Pigeau was calling from inside an infamous Ontario jail, the Elgin Middlesex Detention Centre or the EMDC. On the other end of that call was a producer with the CBC's Fifth Estate, Joseph Lioero. The two started talking when the Fifth Estate began investigating the death of Adam Kargus, a prisoner at EMDC. James Pigeau had been there that night in 2013 and shared the story of how his fellow prisoner was brutally murdered inside his cell. But the phone calls continued for months with James painting a grim portrait of life inside EMDC, beatings by guards, rampant drug abuse by inmates and a general lawlessness. Then this month James Pigeau was found dead in his cell. The coroner has yet to rule on the cause of death. We do know that it is the third death since December at that facility. As the Fifth Estate continues its look in two suspicious deaths at the Elgin Middlesex Detention Centre. I am joined by the show's co-host Habiba Nosheen and producer Joseph Loiero. And a warning, some of what we're about to hear may not be suitable for younger listeners. Hello to you both.

HABIBA NOSHEEN: Hi Anna Maria.

JOSEPH LOIERO: Hi.

AMT: Habiba, remind us about the EMDC the Elgin Middlesex Detention Centre.

HABIBA NOSHEEN: So, it's a jail tucked away in London, Ontario. And it's a remand facility which means mixed with the convicted inmates are those just waiting trial who could very well be innocent. And as you know we were there investigating suspicious deaths for our story that aired December 1st. And what we found in our investigation was that since 2009 it had been 10 suspicious deaths at EMDC. The death we've focused on was the death of an inmate Adam Kargus and we obtained the tapes of that murder. And also Keith Patterson who hanged himself and part of that was also caught on tape and no one seemed to notice, and there is a class action lawsuit currently filed on behalf of about 10,000 current and former inmates saying that the conditions at EMDC are simply inhumane.

AMT: Some really disturbing cases that you outlined in your piece. Joseph you were in contact with James Pigeau. Tell us about him.

JOSEPH LOIERO: James, he was 32 years old London, Ontario boy. He was a big lively guy who always had seemed to have a spark in his voice many of the times he spoke with him. He was a father to a young girl, often talked about how he regretted that he was able to see her as often as he liked. He also appeared to have a religious background. There were times when we'd be on the form where he'd get off to go to chapel. He spoke to me at length about the conditions there just feeling that it wasn't safe enough or even sanitary enough. Generally, it lacked a sense of humanity is kind of how he put it. But of course he also had his troubles. He was in jail. He was there facing charges of robbery and theft. There were non-violent crimes but he also done time at the EMDC. He did have a history of being there. He was there the night when Adam Kargus was murdered - the inmate that Habiba was mentioning - in 2013. But this time he was there on remand and he was actually hoping to make bail. There was an optimism that he was going to get out. He had been in there since last March. He also just talked to me about life and there and what inmates can do to try to pass the time. So other than going to the chapel, for instance, he told me just straight up a couple of times he'd be calling me after they'd been smoking pardoner there. He also had a sense of hopelessness for the conditions in the jail and how inmates were treated.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES PIGEAU: This is the worst jail in Ontario. They don't give two ****. None of your rights are upheld here, you know. How can they say you can't see your lawyer for weeks on end? Like how am I supposed to prepare for my case if I can't even talk to my lawyer? Our mail is so much here. Like my daughter can't even send me a birthday card, you know

AMT: Just clarifying, so he's in remand. He's awaiting trial on these charges but he's not been found guilty but he's in there. He sounds defeated, Joseph

JOSEPH LOIERO: That's right exactly. He hasn't been found guilty yet. To a certain extent, yes, he was defeated because as much as he wanted to improve the conditions there, he did have a bit of a cynical belief that nothing was going to get done and that the conditions weren't going to improve there. The case that he's referring to is his criminal case that we were talking about earlier, but he was also part of a civil suit against the province because he was there the night that Adam Kargus was murdered and he says he could hear Adam screaming. He says this really really had a deep impact on him. He said Adam was a friend of his and the lasting psychological trauma has just been really hard to deal with. So him, along with several other inmates, are suing the province for millions of dollars because of what they say has been the fall out of experiencing and witnessing Adam's death when no one came to help him. He also has a sense of hopelessness for the conditions in the jail and how inmates were treated.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES PIGEAU: No Wonder people or people are depressed and they like, they use drugs. I know that one he's never touched fentanyl in his life, but after two weeks of sleeping on the floor and being treated as a piece of ****, you know what I mean, as soon as he was offered it, he didn't even think twice, you know. And they actually had to spend three hours there babysitting him, because he is sitting there just drenching sweat, kept on looking like he is going to pass out.

AMT: You know I remember in December that everyone described the place as being out of control and it sounds as if James is describing that same environment.

JOSEPH LOIERO: Yes exactly. And since our story aired everyone is still saying the same thing. Inmates still say they are being abused. The guards still say inmates are out of control. There are still a real sense of lawlessness there. And for James, it was actually about lawlessness that prompted him to call me. Our first conversations were actually about an incident where he says he was beaten up by several guards recently.

AMT: Did you talk to him about this beating in particular

JOSEPH LOIERO: Yes. James called me and he wanted to go over this thing in all the detail he could. And essentially what happened was, according to James, one night he had an altercation with some of the guards and then the next day after you know a bit more attention maybe some back and forth for some of the guards, he says he was called to go off the range - which is the area where the cells are in the jail - and to go for his medication. But what he says what happened next was he essentially had the crack kicked out of him by a number of guards. I mean James described this to me. I'll let him tell you in more detail what he says happened.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES PIGEAU: Basically, I had twelve of them [unintelligible] me and beat the living **** out of me. They threw a hood over my head and then basically as they are escorting me down to - well, dragging me down - to the hall, they guy behind me was stepping on my shackles, handcuffs on my feet. He stepped on those and then basically he released it and kicked me in the back to get me going again. So he is sitting there stepping on my handcuffs so that drags my feet way back and then my wrists gets all twisted and whatnot. So that is what caused all the cuts all over my arms and... Yes, I get down there and when they are in the cell, they beat the living **** out of me. And then I demanded pictures be taken, which they did. And then, I think about an hour, two hours later they found me on the floor, unconscious. So then they grabbed me and took me to the hospital and ... I am getting called off to arrange for a medical. Is there a time I can call you back

JOSEPH LOIERO: Yes, call me back anytime.

JOSEPH LOIERO: And as you hear, Anna Maria, at the end of our conversation we were interrupted but James did speak at length about what happened with me on several occasions.

AMT: He tells a really disturbing story. Were you able to verify what happened to him?

JOSEPH LOIERO: We don't know exactly how many guards may have been involved in the incident or how severe of his injuries were. To hear that 12 guards beat him up does sound like a lot of guards. James was a big guy, 205 pounds and you can see from pictures of him online, a lot of that was muscle. But even so with dozen guards that does sound like a lot of guards. But what we do know is that his lawyer Kevin Egan visited James after he said this had happened. And Egan says he did see the cuts on his arms. I will let Kevin pick it up from here.

SOUNDCLIP

KEVIN EGAN: I think James always felt like he had enemies within the institution. He was the victim of violence. I believe it was on August 16, 2017, I wrote to the superintendent at Elgin Middlesex Detention Centre, asking them to preserve video evidence from the day before because James had been beaten by several guards and was subsequently taken to the hospital.

JOSEPH LOIERO: And in America we know from our initial investigation in EMDC that there are cameras all over this jail. And I want to do everything I could to verify James's story and see firsthand the injuries he sustained. So even before he passed away I filed a Freedom of Information request for access to any photos, any videos of James resulting from this incident. Months later, still no response and I followed up several times but I haven't received anything. And as we know sometimes journalists request for access to information can be denied for privacy reasons. So I asked James to sign a consent letter for CBC to have access to this material and he was happy to sign the letter. He really wanted to make sure that his concerns about violence at the jail were made public. He wanted people to see the evidence of what he says happened firsthand. He wanted to get this information out there. And since I filed my request I followed up with the Ministry of Correctional Services Freedom of Information several times recently about getting access to any of the photos, any of the videos and they haven't even responded.

AMT: Habiba, tell us a little bit more about the changes he was pushing for.

HABIBA NOSHEEN: Yes so he told the CBC that he wanted things to be safer and more humane for inmates. He told us essentially that the basic human rights of inmates were being violated at EMDC. He wanted better access to his lawyer and other inmates to have access to the lawyers. And he was just trying to better the normal day to day life of inmates by doing things like contacting churches who had agreed to give them books, so inmates can have access to better books. He had been communicating with Kevin Egan about the lawsuit relating to inmate Adam Kargus's death and James was actually providing Kevin Egan with information that he thought might be helpful for his case. And here's Kevin Egan.

SOUNDCLIP

KEVIN EGAN: He communicated with me in regard to the online conditions and difficulties that he had at Elgin Middlesex Detention Centre in terms of overcrowding, violence, the hostile environment he was experiencing and provided me with information including having drawn a diagram of one of the rangers at Elgin Middlesex Detention Centre to assist in his own litigation and some other matters.

HABIBA NOSHEEN: Yes James was helping Kevin by drawing diagrams of the layout flaws inside EMDC. And what we know is that some folks have said that it's actually one of the biggest problems at the EMDC is that the design and the way that the guard station is situated inside EMDC, it just doesn't allow them to have full view of what's happening with most inmates for the most part of the day. The inmates are situated in a completely different section than what the guards can see from their own stations. And so what James was doing was drawing these diagrams that he had hoped would be useful to Kevin in his litigation.

AMT: Have you managed to piece together what happened the day James died?

HABIBA NOSHEEN: We don't know a lot and that's not unusual and that's how the EMDC that we examine the current process of investigating these deaths, and ruling on the finding is so long that sometimes it takes years before the official cars is actually made public. The ministry did tell us and did confront that an inmate at EMDC was unresponsive in his cell on January 7th. Paramedics were called and the inmate was pronounced deceased. Any further question that we asked, we were told they would be inappropriate for the ministry to comment further because the investigation is underway. The media is reporting this as a possible drug overdose from fentanyl. But again the coroner has not confirmed that and we don't know and we won't know the official cause, possibly for years.

AMT: Did James have a history of drug use

JOSEPH LOIERO: Well like I mentioned earlier he was pretty vocal about smoking pot but he never mentioned anything about using harder drugs. But it was interesting and talking to James, he did discuss how he knew fentanyl was in the jail and here is actually some of what he told me.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES PIGEAU: The fentanyl and all that [unintelligible]

JOSEPH LOIERO: Yes what's been going on with that?

JAMES PIGEAU: Just basically people being dumb. What they have been doing is like street fentanyl, right, like people know that you are not supposed to - like if you were to take a match, right, just the head of that match, that is all you need of fentanyl to basically get you to the maximum high. So what happens is people don't do the match head and then 0 of 30 minutes later they are like 'what the hell [unintelligible]' They don't feel enough. And then they do another one and then 20-30 minutes [unintelligible] don't feel anything. So they do it again and then the next thing is [unintelligible]. People are screwing around with it. Sometimes they put some nasty chemicals. I don’t deal with fentanyl. I stay away from it.

AMT: It's extraordinarily man in jail talking about how they're using fentanyl and cutting it. Tell me more.

JOSEPH LOIERO: Yeah it's really interesting Anna Maria, especially because we just heard James say that he stayed away from Fentanyl. He said he knew how dangerous it was, but he talks about now some people who were in there may actually do it for the first time who would have never never otherwise done it, just to try to cope with life inside there he says due to the boredom, the despair. And so may be for James it is possible that he might have just finally broken giving it a try himself.

AMT: Do we know how drugs such as this is get into a place like EMDC

JOSEPH LOIERO: I was wondering the exact same thing and James described it to me in very interesting detail.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES PIGEAU: You know, it basically comes in one way or another if you know what I mean. People if they know how to get [unintelligible] form, wrap up little packages and stuff like that, you know, called eggs, and they basically just you know put whatever they like in it. Like tobacco, weed, pills for some people, you know and then the fentanyl that has been killing everybody. They basically stick it the keister.

AMT: They stick it up the keister. They don't check inmates thoroughly for drugs?

JOSEPH LOIERO: They do conduct searches of inmates when they're entering the jail and the inmates are actually also subject to a body scan or search, that's in a separate building located on the same property but the drugs are sold getting in. And it is interesting to note that while there is a scanner in the separate building that is being used there isn't one in the mean EMDC building and the ministry promised last year that these body scanners would be arriving at the EMDC in their main facility. That didn't happen. After our story aired in December, they said they would be in place before the end of 2017. That didn't happen but they once again recently said that the scanners will be there soon. And in the meantime, they are going to equip guards with a medication that can help reverse an opioid overdose. But it's also interesting to note that staff are not searched before going into the jail.

AMT: So they are going to give them Naloxone kits.

JOSEPH LOIERO: That's right

AMT: Have the jail officials or has the ministry said anything about James's death?

HABIBA NOSHEEN: From my experience on the last story the jail doesn't respond to media requests and they love the ministry handle those. And Minister Lalonde did recently release a statement and we did try to get her to sit down with us or do an interview with us for the story for this weekend. We were unable to. And Anna Maria, this is again the third death since our story aired December 1st. So the statement that she gave addresses all these deaths and reads in part "I want the public to know that I take my responsibility to improve the conditions of our correctional system very seriously and that I will continue to take strong action to ensure the safety of our staff and inmates." More of the same thing that she told us when we did our story.

AMT: What does Kevin Egan, James Pigeau's lawyers think about his death

JOSEPH LOIERO: Well he's been trying to make changes that this jail for the past seven years. So you can only imagine how frustrated he is and for Kevin. He's heard statements like this, that Habiba just read, from several ministers over the year, ministry after ministry, minister after minister, but yet inmates keep dying at an alarming pace at this jail. And in fact he thinks James's death actually needs to be looked at more closely.

SOUNDCLIP

KEVIN EGAN: I really hope that the police do a thorough investigation appraised of all of the background facts regarding this individual. I think there is reasonable cause to have a healthy suspicion that there may be something more to it than a simple drug overdose. Given the fact the enemy is within, that he was actively involved in trying to expose the underbelly of Elgin Middlesex Detention Centre. You know I think we need to make sure that every stone is unturned.

JOSEPH LOIERO: And Anna Maria, London police did confirm with us that there are major crime unit is investigating James's death and that they are awaiting the toxicology report which, if released, might help clarify things for us. Now the last time I spoke with James was back in November and he called me after he had been actually briefly transferred to the Windsor jail because he says he took a beating at the hands of inmates and it was quite severe.

AMT: They moved him for his own safety.

JOSEPH LOIERO: That's right. We believe that to try to protect him they transferred him out of EMDC. And it was interesting because, although we hadn't been at the Windsor institution long, he was quick to point out that he actually felt like he was being treated better at Windsor than he had at EMDC. He felt the staff were more attentive. He felt the facility was cleaner. Now we should note that Windsor is a much newer facility than the EMDC but he said he could notice a real difference in the environment between the two jails. It's the same ministry of corrections in charge of both facilities in London and in Windsor. So why did he feel such a difference in care between the two? Now maybe in Windsor he had the benefit of not being in an institution where he may have pissed off a lot of guards, like he may have at EMDC. But the way he saw it was treatment should be the same regardless of which institution he was in. And ultimately in some of our final conversations I could hear some of the futility in his voice when it came to making meaningful change.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES PIGEAU: What are we supposed to do? Law suits don't change anything. Telling the public don't change anything, you know. Inmates are dying in [unintelligible] centres and public do not giving a ****

JOSEPH LOIERO: Why don't you think [unintelligible]

JAMES PIGEAU: You know what I really think? I think nothing is gonna happen, until the community us actually shown what we are go through and how things are conducted n here.

JOSEPH LOIERO: I have also spoken with numerous current and former guards at EMDC and this weighs heavily on some of them as well. It is a tough job and they are at risk too. Numerous scars over the years have been behind the Ministry of Labor because they're afraid to go into work and they just don't think it's safe enough. So the guards are definitely concerned about the safety and the work environment there and the general lack of resources. They have to do their job properly. They also want this to stop. But part of the overall problem is that sometimes even the public doesn't see inmates as people who deserve to have a safe environment. And one of the last people outside of the jail to speak with James was his lawyer Kevin Egan. So I'll give him the last word.

SOUNDCLIP

KEVIN EGAN: The one thing that I think has to be stressed and of the human being has lost his life. An individual had an expectation of being kept safe and he's dead and his family has lost a loved one. And I know that James wouldn't want his life to mean something. James wife called me on Saturday afternoon at 3:00. He was found dead on Sunday morning. Part of the discussion I had had with James was he was interested in researching the law and I heard a law book that I was going to give to him. I had removed the hard cover from it because he wouldn't be allowed to have a hard cover book in the jail. It is in my car right now with his name on it. You know I regret that I was not able to deliver that to him.

AMT: So interesting other James Pigeau wanted a law book and that he was in there facing charges, he was not found guilty of anything. And he spent all that time in that jail and he died in that jail.

JOSEPH LOIERO: Yes. And we may not ever actually know what happened.

HABIBA NOSHEEN: And Anna Maria what's frustrating is that even after our report aired, this is the third death in six weeks and still we get no answer and just the generic you know 'we can't comment because these deaths are under investigation'. It's been really frustrating, for the inmates, for people speaking on behalf of the inmates and for journalists just trying to get any answer for why does this keep happening at EMDC.

AMT: Well Habiba Nosheen and Joseph Loiero thank you for bringing us this story.

HABIBA NOSHEEN: Thank you.

JOSEPH LOIERO: Thank you.

AMT: Habiba Nosheen is co-host of The Fifth Estate. Joseph Loiero is a producer with the Fifth Estate. They join me in our Toronto studio. Let us know what you think about what you're hearing. You can tweet us. We are @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook or go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the Contact link.

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AMT: In our next half hour, some male voices on the #MeToo movement. We are asking what it means for men. What they're thinking. How they are thinking may be evolving as this all continues and the conversation continues. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current on CBC Radio One, Sirius XM, online on cbc.ca/thecurrent, on Podcast and on your radio app.

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Men and #MeToo: 'People shouldn't lose their livelihood over an unpleasant experience'

Guests: David Eddie, Jordan Veira, Neil Boyd

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current. .

SOUNDCLIP

We're so energised to kind of get retribution I think and where we live in this culture of outrage and injury and you know that that we're going to have to correct enough to kind of go "Well wait a minute. None of us came here perfect." You know what I mean. Like what's the point of us being here other than to improve. And if we have people within us within the society - like you know the Louis C.K. thing like I don't I don't know all the details. I don't do deep dives on this but I did see his statement. Which kind of was arresting for me which was when he came out and he said: "I did this. He said I did these things. These women are all telling the truth." And I just remember thinking 'well that's the sign of somebody who - we can work with that.

AMT: Actor Matt Damon sharing some of his thoughts on the Me Too movement last month. His ABC News interviewer may have been nodding along in agreement. But once those comments hit the airwaves the actor faced a lot of criticism. So much so that he was soon apologising.

SOUNDCLIP

Well I really wish I had listened a lot more before I weighed in on this.

You are a good listener, Matt.

No not in this case. You know I think ultimately what it is for me is that I don't want to further anybody's pain.

AMT: Despite Matt Damon's pledge to just listen, today we're asking men to speak up and weigh in on Me Too. You can think of this conversation as a book-end to our panel discussion on yesterday's show when we heard from three women from different generations. Three men are standing by to talk about Me Too. Jordan Veira is an artist and youth worker based in Toronto. He's the director of the Herd an arts based social enterprise. He is based in Toronto. But we reached him in Porto Vieja in Costa Rica today. David Eddie is the author of Damage Control he's an advice columnist for The Globe and Mail. He is in our Toronto studio. Neil Boyd is a professor at Simon Fraser University's School of Criminology. He's also the author of the 2004 book Big Sister: How Extreme Feminism has Betrayed the Fight for Sexual Equality. He joins us on the phone from Bowen Island B.C. Hello everyone. Welcome.

NEIL BOYD: Hi.

DAVID EDDIE: Morning.

AMT: Neil Boyd. I want to start with you. Matt Damon says he wishes he had listened more before weighing in on the Me Too movement. Do you feel any reservations about joining this conversation today given the current climate?

NEIL BOYD: Oh sure. I think it's only reasonable to have some reservations. For me I think it's important to stick to the facts to stick to the law. What are the definitions of sexual harassment? What are the definitions of sexual assault? And there are some times when we've crossed boundaries when we've described activities that amount to a bad date rather than sexual assault or sexual harassment.

AMT: Jordan Veira What role do you think men should be playing in this movement

JORDAN VEIRA: I think men's primary role should be to listen. This is an opportunity for us to understand the nuance and specific ways that we can participate in various forms of violence. I think the thing is about our privileges our society has made it so that we have made it as men so that we don't have to listen, and we silence victims of violence and everyday violence. I think all of us have an opportunity right now to really understand the various ways that we can be complicit in these types of violence on a day to day basis.

AMT: David Eddie, what do you think?

DAVID EDDIE: Well you know I'm really torn. I on the one hand I think this is great. It is a sea change. I am not the first person to use that term. And every single woman that I know has had to fend off sort of unwanted advances of one kind and another. I don't want to trivialise this discussion, but I've said in the past to my wife 'boy you have no idea what it's like to be a teenage boy' and she said back right back to me 'Well you have no idea what it's like to be a teenage girl'. And I'll just insert parenthesis with the word 'sexy'. She said I could never talk to the boys because everything turned into a double entendre or like some sort of sexual innuendo. And it starts there and then it moves into the workplace where all of a sudden it's your boss with the double entendres and the sexual innuendos and the unwanted advances. So I'm really glad that this is happening. My conscience is quite clear when it comes to unwanted advances but at the same time I think I have to step back a little bit scratch my head and say well what about the innuendo so am I guilty of that. Maybe so. The only thing that's actually on my conscience is once I went out with a bunch of co-workers and I think we had a few drinks and I gave this girl a hug goodbye and she said 'thanks for the creepy hug, Dave' and I was like 'Oh yeah I didn't really realise I was doing that'. So I think it's time for men to actually examine their consciences. And I'm also so happy that let these bullies get off the stage, because they are they are giving us all a bad name the Louis C.K.s or whatnot. On the other hand it makes me nervous that people are losing their livelihoods. Like for example in Albert Schultz just on the basis of allegations. You know these four women came forward and forced him to be kind of like the magic number. And so it's like well we all say something similar. And so the board of directors of Soulpepper theatre - if anybody does know that you know he's one of the founders - says 'Yeah we believe them. So you're fired and so is your wife' Lizzie Lester. And that kind of thing makes me nervous because we're talking about a person's livelihood you're talking about their ability to put food on the table. All of a sudden that vanishes on the basis of allegations. So I'm really kind of torn.

AMT: Neil Boyd what do you think

NEIL BOYD: Would it agree with those sentiments. I think that's essentially the heart of it that we need to listen. You know over 40 years as an academic I've seen huge changes in terms of women's rights; equality around property division in the event of marriage breakdown; changes around harassment to take it more seriously. And now this which is going to model behaviour for young men in a way that we've never anticipated. I'm a bit disappointed that the leader of this problem; the president of the United States; seems to have a Teflon like ability to carry on. That's really upsetting in many different ways. But I also agree with the points made about Albert Schultz and about a number of other cases. The Ansari cases one that's come up recently and I just cannot see harassment or sexual assault in any of what has been described.

AMT: What about, Neil, that the argument that that women are making that, that this is a continuum that it may not be sexual assault in the criminal sense but it's part of that that that trail of stuff that begins and ends badly. As Dave says it starts in teenager hood and you get to work. And it keeps on going.

NEIL BOYD: Oh I think it's good that we're paying attention to this. Men are aware that the sexuality of men and women is quite different. And we're in a position where we need to listen more. But in terms of consequences, in terms of actionable consequences I think it's important to have definitions of what's intolerable and what's not and what's an unpleasant experience. You know I think we've all had unpleasant experiences on dates feeling rejection or feeling that just didn't go well, that there was some unpleasantness. But we have to make distinctions around issues such as sexual assault and sexual harassment. Even sexual harassment, if you look at the burden of proof more probable than not I think most of us would rather be convicted of impaired driving where the burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt than to be found guilty of harassment in our workplaces. There's a lot more stigma attached to that conduct.

AMT: Jordan Veira what do you think

JORDAN VEIRA: I think it's challenging and quite dangerous to prioritise our safety or the security of our careers over the safety of the women in our communities and in our families. I think one of the things about social media is the way that you sort of sensationalise these issues, when in actuality the issue of sexual violence is so much more pervasive. And when the average Joe doesn't have a TV deal to lose out on, how is he held accountable for his creepy behaviour for his violent behaviour. I think it's important for us to understand the nuance between law and morality. And I think when it comes to women who experience sexual violence in this way or as in the case of Aziz, I am sorry. I can understand people saying 'well they don't understand how the law was broken here'. But if somebody's safety was compromised, if somebody didn't feel their physical safety was secure then that is a human issue.

NEIL BOYD: It's more than what a person feels there are some objective reality to this.

DAVID EDDIE: I think a person feels is important.

JORDAN VEIRA: I completely agree with you. But at the end of the day we can't continue to ignore people's experiences in order to try and save our livelihoods.

NEIL BOYD: Yes no no I agree. Well but people shouldn't lose their livelihood as a consequence of an unpleasant experience.

JORDAN VEIRA: Absolutely. And this is if I can quote my mother, she says 'a lot of people are hurt. But until we learn how to work together in the process of restorative justice we will not get to heal'. My mom is a support worker and she's worked with young women who've experienced sexual violence. Basically my entire life, this is a conversation I've been having since I was a child and she understands you know the current climate of trying to dismantle people who are in powerful positions as examples. But the reality is so many of these things are happening every single day. Millions and millions of times a day and not everybody has the opportunity dismantle somebody especially when that perpetrator is their uncle or their father or their cousin or their brother or their friend at school. I work in schools and I see sexual violence happening so many times a day in the hallways. I mean to all of us can think back to high school or middle school and all of the different various micro aggressions and macro aggressions that happen in the hallways and in classrooms and things like that. Well those experiences are violent. They're traumatising for young women. And I think that's what they're saying right now that the status quo the way that things are is often a crappy experience for women. And so that nuance needs to change. We need to understand how we can how we can live differently and that's going to mean for men that we're going to be uncomfortable and we're going to be in a new space. But I don't think the centre of the conversation should be around these men's livelihoods right now although that is extremely important. I think it should be around how do we exist in a safer way, so that when it comes to your livelihood if you're being called out, you can figure out a process of restorative justice. You can figure out how to continue operating and living in the world so that you can survive. But at the same time you can honour those women who might not feel quite safe.

AMT: I want to play a bit of yesterday's all female Me Too panel. You're going to hear a Globe and Mail columnist Elizabeth Renzetti reacting to a club we played where the American author Christina Hoff Sommers had said 'we should be concerned that innocent men can be falsely accused in his Me Too climate because accusations are being made without due process'.

SOUNDCLIP

Who are these innocent people these martyrs that we know were burning at the stake. Like when we talk about this is so hard on you know certain men who this is happening to. I would like those people to listen to the women who e-mail me who have suffered harassment, and abuse and misconduct at work and were ignored, were forced out. Some of them are in their 60s, their 70s, their, 80s and they carry the scars silently. They carry it often by themselves. They sometimes have families and they've had to leave their work and they felt completely unsupported. Those are the people we should be thinking about and those are the people we reserve our sympathy for.

AMT: Neil Boyd what do you think

NEIL BOYD: Well I think there's some merit to that. You know when I joined the university I think it was fair to say back in the late 70s early 80s that there were many faculty - male faculty - who saw graduate students and undergraduate students as sexual opportunities. And I was kind of horrified by the culture that existed at that time. There has been a huge change in our culture. At one time it was permissible for men to have sexual relationships with graduate students that they were supervising with. We didn't have any rules in the 90s. We finally put a rule in place to stop that. So you know I've seen so much change in 40 years. And I welcome the Me Too intervention. I think it's a positive thing. The point that Jordan I believe was made about how you know these are powerful men but there are a lot of people who don't have that kind of power who are still dealing with this on a daily basis and with harassment and sexual assault. So yeah but I you know come back as a lawyer to the importance of consequences based on factual realities. You know postmodernism has given us this idea that there is no objective reality. I think we have to fight against that as well.

AMT: Dave Eddie?

DAVID EDDIE: I don't think we should be too legalistic about it. I think something more is going on here. And I would tend to side with Elisabeth Renzetti and just say you know anybody who's ever dealt with any kind of a bully knows that feeling. What am I going to do? It's like you're cornered you're trapped. Do I make a joke out of it? Right. And that women have had to do that. Every single woman I know their entire lives. Some guy is like 'hey hey great skirt. Your butt should be in jail for looking so good' or whatever and then you're like 'Ha ha ha. This is my boss,' right. And I think that what's changing here is maybe there is some element of over correction. People have used the term witch hunt or whatnot, but what's going on here is that hopefully when the process finishes, we could talk about how things have changed over 40 years. They are now changing again right now as we speak. Things are changing to the point where men who might have made these types of comments or, I guess you know on the other end of the spectrum of this harassment and abuse. But for me the end of the spectrum, the gray area where a woman has the kind of squirm and not really know, try to go along with the so-called joke or else be accused of not having a sense of humour. Right. I'm sure Anna Maria you have had that experience and it would be nice I think for the women that I know, mothers, wives, sister - I only have one wife by the way - mothers, wife, sister that they would not have to deal with that.

AMT: Well you know we talk about new realities and a lot of women would argue that they, from the age of 12 or earlier, face the reality of male aggression. They learn how to walk down the street at night. They learn how to look over their shoulders. They learn how to walk to their cars. They learn how to walk into an underground parking lot. There isn't a time when a woman who is listening right now, or not listening right now, hasn't had to think twice about who might be around the corner for her, or in the same house.

DAVID EDDIE: Or have to deal with a boss who is making sexual jokes and kind of hinting that you might lose your job if you don't go along with the so-called joke, right. I mean that was the thing about Albert Schultz. He says he's going to defend himself vigorously. But it was all in the vein of humour, the allegation.

AMT: So let me ask Jordan Veira. Jordan some of the criticism, or at least the observation of the women who have come forward so far, have been white women who are privileged, who are educated, have good jobs. They have a microphone. What are you seeing in the wider community? What are you seeing in the racialist community

JORDAN VEIRA: Well myself I come from the African Canadian community and we've definitely had a lot of conversations. I've curated a lot of events for the last seven eight years in Toronto where we have conversations like this. And I think the reality is so many instances of sexual violence happened behind closed doors. They happen in our families. They happen in our homes. They happened definitely in the workforce and on the streets. I think there's definitely a class division between those who have the opportunity to go out on social media and call out their abusers and those that don't. And not just class divisions but there are also racial divides. I think when it comes to black people, we have a obviously a different relationship to policing into law than people of privilege. And in that case I think that can create a hesitance. I've heard many black women say they don't feel comfortable calling the police on their brother or their cousin who might have been violent or might have been creepy in one way or another, because they don't want that person to then lose their lives. I think one thing with the Me Too movement is it's a social media trend. And as with many social media trends it will come and go. If you look at Black Lives Matter and the trend of turning victims of police brutality into hashtags that was a huge and long trend that happened on social media. But now it's over. You haven't really seen very many hashtags. That doesn't mean police brutality is over. It doesn't mean black men have stopped getting killed. And I worry about, well what if I pass away, if I get killed by police here in Costa Rica or in Toronto, is my name going to be turned into a hashtag? Is there going to be a campaign to try and find justice or hold my abusers accountable? And the reality is unless we are able to take these conversations of me to and bring that into our homes, bring them into the streets, figure out how think to take this language and not just focus on legality but focus on humanity. How do we as humans exist together in community and in our homes in a safer more productive way in a fair way? I understand that it's not just about what consequences you might face as a man. It's at the end of the day about the basis of your integrity as a human being on this planet. I think what when we're able to swallow that pill which can be quite uncomfortable as men, we are going to be able to participate in this conversation in a way that's healthier. But I think it's so long as we're focusing on our careers, on consequences we're sort of missing the point here because it's not about money. It's about safety. It's about humanity. And I think people of colour have had to deal with issues like this in silence without the attention of the media, without the attention of the government for a long time. And I think that reality has created a lot of different pathways toward different forms of justice. But at the end of the day it takes a society to understand how to deal with this thing on a mass level. I work with kids. We have to understand that the kids right now are paying attention. I work with middle school kids and high school kids and we work on social media campaigns around different forms of oppression and things like that. And they're paying attention to every single nuance of these things.

AMT: And what are they telling you about consent, or what's that conversation like now maybe compared to several years ago

JORDAN VEIRA: Well compared to when I was growing up, when I was growing up it didn't seem that consent was even socially understood concept especially by young people. These days it seems young people are equipped with way more language to have these conversations. But at the same time with all of the political language and jargon that we use there's still massive violations of consent happening every single day in the classroom. So the language is there but the behaviour isn't. And they've learned the language from us but they haven't quite learned the behaviour from us because we haven't figured out how to adopt the behaviours of reinforcing the importance of consent .and enthusiastic consent as it as is the case with Aziz Ansari. We can see that that consent was not there at all and was definitely not enthusiastic. We have to understand that consent cannot be coerced, cannot be convinced, cannot be quilted or assumed. It needs to be enthusiastic and generally speaking if you're somebody who's wanting to practice a sex life you shouldn't be trying to sleep with anybody or have any sort of sexual interaction with somebody who isn't reciprocating your level of enthusiasm for that. It is quite violent and it is quite dehumanising for your partner.

AMT: Neil Boyd, I just wanted to maybe pick up on this. Neil Boyd when it comes to evolving understandings of consent, what are you thinking? What are the men who you talk to thinking?

NEIL BOYD: Well I agree very much with the points that Jordan made regarding class and race and the extent to which this is not something that has filtered into everyday consciousness. At the same time however I have a very different take on the Ansari case. From what I've read yes I mean that was a bad experience. Was it sexual assault? No. Was it sexual harassment? No. And you know a lot of women have called out the accuser in that case and said that you know that was a bad date that was unpleasant. We all have unpleasant things happen to us but that's the kind of overreaction that could diminish the Me Too movement. And I think the Me Too movement is in part. I liked the fact that people like Harvey Weinstein and Matt Lauer you know for conduct that is clearly so over the line. These people are being called out. And I'm hopeful as Jordan said that that we can actually have conversations in all of our communities about what consent means and change the nature of the agenda around sexuality. But you know there is over correction there is access. And as a lawyer I do think it's important to pay attention to what the rules are unless the rules are terribly wrong. And being upset is not a justification for somebody losing their job.

AMT: David Eddie.

DAVID EDDIE: Well I'll agree with that and I agree also with most of what Jordan said except for the fact that I don't think that this is a hashtag that's just going pass. I think there is something happening society. You could say that maybe there is a certain over correction that the pendulum is swinging a little bit too far in one way and maybe it will swing back. But I don't think we should get too legalistic about it. I think what people call I don't really like the term micro aggression but these sort of minor things are important. I don't think people should lose their jobs over them. But I think that men have to sit back and say 'well am I guilty of these kind of micro aggressions that I feel make the women in my world feel uncomfortable or bullied'. It doesn't have to be something legalistic that you lose your job over. But I think it's time for us, the way that we need to participate in this thing is not listen or whatever but actually sit back, scratch your heads and say 'do I do this? And if I do maybe it's time for me to correct it a little bit'. And I was talking about innuendoes before that. That's the only thing on my conscience and I've started to say to myself I'm not going to do these double entendres anymore.

AMT: I just want to pick up on something else because Neil Boyd you keep talking about the law. We should point out most laws were made over time by predominantly decisions made by men. We did a story in our second half hour today about a man in remand for the better part of a year who died there. Nonviolent crime, never got to trial. We put people in jail all the time when we can't prove that they've done something. So when we look at where we are now when we're talking about the feeling of a large percentage of the population that there are crimes against them that are not seen as crimes. Do we need to evolve a bit? Because we do put in jail before we try them.

NEIL BOYD: We put people in jail far too often for far too many things and we discriminate against people on the basis of race and class albeit inadvertently and perhaps in some circumstances. But we do that. And you know the changes that we're seeing in relation to cannabis law part of that change I hope is driven by a realisation that it's very discriminatory in the manner in which the law currently is very [unintelligible] the manner which is enforced. Do we need to change the standards with respect to sexual assault proof beyond a reasonable doubt No. Sexual harassment actually may be, on a balance of probabilities a person can be found to have sexually harassed another. At my university we had a big disaster in the 80s into the 90s rather. A president lost his job and it was about how we make determinations and whether the process is fair. So I do think - I mean yes, I agree with what David said. This isn't entirely a legal listing issue but when we're talking about the consequences for individuals I think law is terribly important.

AMT: Gentlemen we're out of time. We have to leave it there. I really appreciate you talking about all of this and sharing your voices with us.

GUESTS: Thank you. My pleasure.

AMT: I'm speaking with Jordan Veira is a Toronto artist and youth worker he happens to be in Costa Rica today. David Eddie is an advice columnist for The Globe and Mail. He's in our Toronto studio. Neil Boyd is a criminology professor at Simon Fraser University. He's in Bowen Island, B.C. Over to you now. What role do men have in the Me Too movement. We want to hear from you. Find us on Facebook. Go to our Twitter handle. @TheCurrentCBC. Send us an email from the site cbc.ca/thecurrent. That's our program for today. Stay with Radio One for Q. The playwright and director Roberto Lepage joins host Tom Power to talk about his new touring show 8-8-7. Just have to say one of the best things I've ever seen on stage in my life, Robert Lepage with Tom Power, on Q today. Today we're going to leave you with one more perspective on the Me Too movement. Dan Harmon the TV writer and creator of shows, including community made waves for issuing a heartfelt apology for his sexual harassment and having that accepted, he was speaking on his podcast. He apologised for having been quote 'flirty and creepy' to one of the writers on his show - Megan Ganz - for years. After that was released she took to Twitter to call it a 'masterclass in how to apologise'. So we're going to leave you with part of what he said. Here he is. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thanks for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

I never did it before and I will never do it again. But I certainly wouldn't have been able to do it if I had any respect for women. On a fundamental level, I was thinking about them as different creatures. I was thinking about the ones that I liked as having some special role in my life. And I did it all by not thinking about it. So I just want to say, in addition to obviously being sorry, but that's really not the important thing. I want to say I did it by not thinking about it, and I got away with it by not thinking about it. And the last and most important thing I can say is just think about it. No matter who you are at work, no matter where you're working, no matter what field you're in, no matter what position you have over or under or side by side with somebody. Just think about it.

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Wednesday January 17, 2018 Full Episode Transcript

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